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680597 Posts in 27600 Topics by 4068 Members - Latest Member: Dae Lims March 28, 2024, 04:14:53 PM
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326  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Celebrate The News on: February 19, 2017, 12:57:44 AM
You're absolutely right. Memory for chronology of events is entirely different to memories of events themselves.
327  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Paley Sessions Discussion Thread on: February 17, 2017, 12:16:55 PM

My opinion the biggest issue that prevents the "real" Brian Wilson/Beach Boys sound from coming through since '77 is the search for either the "new Pet Sounds" or the modern "Beach Boys" sound. But I believe the Beach Boys in their natural state (as lead by BW) generally yields albums like Friends or Love You. These are not artistically revolutionary or commercially oriented works.

The Paley session tracks are clearly part of this family of recordings -- homespun and natural, not contrived. BW's vocals are indeed "weird" and unkempt ... but they are filled with an enthusiasm I have not heard in any of his recordings since.


I agree with this 100%

And it's not just the (non pitch corrected) vocals, its the vocal arrangements. Its the track arrangements. Its the sound. Its the way it all gels together.

Its the sound of a Brian Wilson recording.
328  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Paley Sessions Discussion Thread on: February 16, 2017, 10:12:25 AM
I fear GIOMH ruined any chance, for me, to be enthusiastic about the Paley sessions. Sad

I think I'm the only person who likes this album. I much prefer it to anything done with Joe Thomas's involvement. Anyway, I transgress.......
329  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Paley Sessions Discussion Thread on: February 16, 2017, 08:33:37 AM
Back to the Paley sessions, I was recently re-reading several old threads on the topic. I think the general takeaway after a lot discussion was that, while one could still argue they should have done the Paley stuff *instead* of "Stars and Stripes", they didn't *cancel* the Paley stuff *for* S&S. They simply set it aside with no clear idea of what the plan was, and moved to another project.

It makes sense from a logistical point of view; an album of remakes involves much less creative decision making and politics about songwriting credits, etc.

I think the Paley stuff could have been revisited; Carl's illness in late 1996 going into 1997 seemed to stall any further studio work. Not that the Paley stuff *for sure* would have happened had Carl lived, but I think the Paley stuff is more a case of "never revisited" rather than definitively canceled.

I have said this many times on this board, but...in 1996, I was told by Elliott Lott during the making of S&S that the Don Was/Brian Wilson produced Beach Boys album of Wilson/Paley (and whatever else) material was absolutely NOT dead.  Rather, it was temporarily on hold during S&S; that the band felt MUCH more positive and hopeful about the "Was" album than S&S; that the band saw S&S as a quick and easy opportunity to get back in the studio with Brian in a  less pressurized environment on familiar material to get their feet wet first.

How did that come up? I saw him backstage at a BB show and flat out asked him--why are they doing this instead of that? What's up?

So Stars and Stripes was acting like a 15 Big Ones? Makes sense. Gives the Paley stuff yet more parralels with Love You.
330  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Favorite Bonus Tracks on Two-fers on: February 15, 2017, 08:58:47 AM
I remember, back in the 80s when I was discovering each Beach Boys album, when most were out of print and I had to hunt them down, every song was a bonus track.

Still regret selling all those hard sought out LPs when the twofers came out. Bad decision, most were the original monos.

But yes, the way those twofers were presented are still my definitive way of listening to those albums. A great rerelease package which heralded the rediscovery / reassessment of the Beach Boys
331  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Favorite Bonus Tracks on Two-fers on: February 14, 2017, 11:55:28 PM
Hands down...the Chuck Britz "single mix" of Heroes And Villains.

God yes! I bought the twofers as they were released  (a month or so apart if I remember) I was SO excited to get the SS/WH one as I was sure there would be some Smile material on there. Had to travel to another town to get it as they didn't have it where I lived. I had to track it down. I remember shrieking in HMV as I read the tracklisting and saw H&V alternate version and Cant wait too long (which was still considered a Smile track prior to this releaee). All those poodle permed Megadeth fans must have wondered what the hell was going on.

Had to take it to my girlfriends house as I didn't have  a CD player yet.

The excitement had built to fever pitch.

That version of H&V, wow. It certainly lived up to expectation and the promise of Smile. Hearing the familiar verses in a unfamiliar way, then the Cantina section coming in. Wow.......

Its hard to appreciate now, but this was the first new Smile material to come out since Surfs Up. It was  major event. It certainly lives as a  very fresh memory for me.

I miss life before the internet.
332  Non Smiley Smile Stuff / The Sandbox / Re: AGD missing, the future of this forum on: February 13, 2017, 11:40:10 PM
This thread is Snowflake Central...sensitive little bunch!

You are aware there is a study in Sweden at the moment that shows there is a direct correlation between use of the word 'snowflake' in a derogatory sense, and having a tiny penis. According to the study users of the word are asserting their masculinity in an attempt to draw attention away from their microscopic member.

Personally I love your insightful, razor witted posts, and I would really hate it if everytime the annoying liberals on this board saw one of your posts they were thinking 'boy, that guy must have absolutely tiny tool'
333  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Absolute favorite BB track? on: February 11, 2017, 02:26:50 AM
Wind Chimes - Smiley Smile version

By a dozen country miles times a million to the power of 20.
334  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Cabinessence sequence done when? (Are verse vocals def. from 68?) on: February 09, 2017, 08:50:49 AM
Leetwall, I love your optimism.
335  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Rate the Boxed Sets on: February 08, 2017, 11:27:50 AM
"Made in California" was needlessly bloated, and forced almost exclusively hardcore fans to buy numerous discs of stuff they already had five or ten times over. Maybe it's the only way they were able to convince Capitol to put anything out at all, I dunno.

But it's still a must-own for any BB fan/scholar that's interested in anything beyond the obvious stuff. It still has a good two or so discs worth of unique stuff. The Dennis tracks alone make it worth it. The '95 reunion tracks. The alternate "Meant for You." The "Wild Honey" stereo remixes. The *amazing* 70s live tracks that make you want to wring someone's neck for not putting out BOXES of the stuff, including a live take on "It's About Time" that totally smokes the "Sunflower" version. A stunningly awe-inspiring 1995 take on "Sail on Sailor" from Carl, which sounds amazing even if it sounds like it was taken from a soundboard feed cassette tape. Vocals-only on "This Whole World." The list goes on and on.

That's why I reluctant bought a copy.  It took me a couple years.  Quite frankly, I'm surprised Capital still had the replacements for Disc 3 laying around when I requested one. 

Ha, I kept my defective disk 3 in case it's worth a fortune one day.
336  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Pet Sounds Overrated? on: February 08, 2017, 11:21:49 AM


Just to be clear, I don't take exception to anything *you* said and never did take exception, nor am I replying to anything specific from your specific posts. It's the trend overall and the behaviors/patterns overall that I've seen regarding all this stuff that I addressed.


That's cool. I thought some of the comments you made were sideways swipes. Not that it bothered me Cry

And some of it is whatever formerly underground sub-cultures now brought to the fore by the internet and anonymity bring to the table in the way of enjoying kocking down the popular stuff in favor of some obscure stuff that never went beyond a regional pressing of 1,000 LP's back in 1966 but is truly spectacular and "better" than the popular stuff. Often what happens then is if and when that 1,000 copy great lost unknown obscure underrated album gets attention from a wide audience or even gets mass attention and heaps of praise, some in that sub-group do the equivalent of shouting "sell out!" and may even start to call their once-beloved and championed "lil ol album that only we knew about before anyone" overrated.


I quite agree, which is why I ultimately think such terminology is meaningless beyond an expression of opinion.

337  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Pet Sounds Overrated? on: February 08, 2017, 10:22:44 AM
Does anyone else notice how these "overrated" albums/artists/songs seem to run in cycles as far as which classic artist or album gets the "overrated" treatment in some circles of music criticism and journalism (not to mention online discussion) ?

I remember very well there was a specific time when I started to notice an influx of articles and commentaries going on the "Sgt Pepper is overrated" trip, and the only reason why I noticed it was because it seemed to be boiling up all at once among some writers and fans. Along with that declaration that Pepper is overrated came the listings of albums released around the same time as Pepper which ostensibly were "better", and I guess trying to imply were more deserving of the ratings that Pepper had been receiving. Floyd, Love, Zombies, go down the usual list.

Now Pet Sounds is in that same grinder.

I'm already repeating earlier points I posted here, but can someone list some albums that would/could/should be rated higher from Pet Sounds' peer group which would make a case that it is overrated? And on what other standards and parameters would that rating be judged? Is it exclusive to each album, or relative to its surrounding and era, etc etc etc?

I won't hold my breath waiting for that list. Ultimately it means little to nothing because it's yet again more of a statement of opinion and musical preferences than it is a true attempt to have a discussion without getting into arguing opinions, semantics, and personal biases.

Or if it isn't possible to craft such a list relative to Pet Sounds or even Pepper, how about the earlier point: Are there artists who are off-limits when it comes to applying the "overrated" label to their work or to them in general, and if so, why are they off-limits while some fall into the critical grinder of negative reevaluation every time the trend recycles itself?

Yes, it does run in cycles. Personally I've  had a problem with Sgt Pepper since about 1984, and its been constant.

As I've already stated. I call it overrated in relation to it being called 'the greatest album ever'. That is the language I take exception against, and overrated is the term I choose to retaliate with. You take exception to me using the word overrated.

As also stated, 'best' and 'greatest' are just a loaded as 'overrated', and can irritate just as much.

Either we choose to accept we are both having a valid reaction to a term we don't like and agree to disagree, or we take the route that one of us is right and one of us is wrong.

Personally I choose the former.
338  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Pet Sounds Overrated? on: February 08, 2017, 10:10:55 AM
Presumptious? Arrogant? Ha, I've been called worse.....

I agree that overrated/underrated are loaded terms. What I genuinely have though is a knee jerk reaction when I hear Sgt Pepper being referred to as 'the greatest album ever'   Same as when anyone tells me Oasis were the best band of the 90s

So, to me, using the term 'overrated' is only ever a reaction to terms like  'best' or ' greatest'

Would you not agree that those could equally be construed as loaded terms?



No offence intended - i've undoubtedly used the word 'overrated' about albums I don't like or don't 'get'. And I do agree that many of these words are loaded and very subjective. The difference though is the implicit criticism of those who have overrated a particular piece of work, whereas 'best' or 'greatest' may be a subjective and even an arguably incorrect statement but there is no such implication.
 

Course I'm not offended Ang! By you or anyone else. I'm enjoying the discussion. Smiley
339  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Pet Sounds Overrated? on: February 07, 2017, 11:52:15 PM
Presumptious? Arrogant? Ha, I've been called worse.....

I agree that overrated/underrated are loaded terms. What I genuinely have though is a knee jerk reaction when I hear Sgt Pepper being referred to as 'the greatest album ever'   Same as when anyone tells me Oasis were the best band of the 90s

So, to me, using the term 'overrated' is only ever a reaction to terms like  'best' or ' greatest'

Would you not agree that those could equally be construed as loaded terms?

340  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Rate the Boxed Sets on: February 07, 2017, 12:48:04 PM
Silly thread, bit of fun. Rare the four official Boxed Sets. (And apologies if this has been done before)

You can rate by the selections, the packaging, the impact it had on you. No fixed criteria. Here's mine.

1) Good Vibrations, 30 Years of the Beach Boys.

My initial and main obsession with the BBs lasted from 88 to 96, so this box arrived  in the middle. There were some real suprises on there. Standouts have to be the Pet Sounds tracking sessions. The Smile stuff I hadn't  heardw, namely Da Da and the Vegatables fade. The GV and Cabinessence tracks, hell, all of disk 5. Played and played this box.  Packaging and notes all great. Have to put it first for most played and biggest impact

2) Pet Sounds Sessions

Blew my mind. Loved the stereo mix. The vocals only and tracking sessions are sublime. Nothing more to say. A heavenly release.

3) Smile Sessions.

If this box had come out 15 years earlier it would have been No 1 for me. Obviously a wonderful release, and a few suprises, such as the Child Is Father 2nd chorus. The packaging itself is awesome, but the book could have been better. Didn't seem aimed at the uber fan, who were the main purchasers of the big box. Would have loved to have had more technical info and sourcing info (still dont know where that 2nd chorus came from) Also wish they'd had access to those Durrie Parks acetates.
Has to be 3, mainly because I was all Smiled out by this point

4) Made in Calfornia

Some great selections and suprises, but I've never come to terms with some of the mixing / mastering decisions. (Sorry Mark, I've loved everything else you've done!) Find a lot of the compression very difficult to listen to.  Also not keen on the packaging and notes. The way the disks are stored in the back make it a chore to get them out. What can I say, I'm lazy. Just find myself reaching for disk 3 of the 93 set again........
341  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: 19 years ago today on: February 06, 2017, 11:18:46 AM
Goodness me, I feel old.
342  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Pet Sounds Overrated? on: February 06, 2017, 10:55:09 AM


Now, suppose when you say something is overrated you are not presuming an objective quality to the music. That, in fact, you are simply saying, "In my opinion this work of art does not deserve the respect it gets." Well, to me, what that really amounts to is, in my view, a more interesting position which is that you don't particularly like the work of art. And at that point the conversation can be "Why?" and hopefully the answer to that is not "Because other people like it so much" but, rather, because you can evaluate the work on it's own terms.



Beautifully put, and that is exactly my position, but not with the answer you hope its not LOL. I find the respect it gets difficult though, although I accept it.

And you're right that the term overrated does suggest a certain amount of objectivity. I was wrestling with that.
343  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Guilty pleasure Beach Boys songs on: February 06, 2017, 09:54:35 AM
Does Day In The Life Of a Tree count

I've seen that song dismissed so many times as a joke. I find it so much more haunting than Till I Die.
344  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Piano on Darlin' on: February 06, 2017, 09:51:36 AM
Correct me of I'm wrong, but I think that's the Chickering piano that was in Brian's house.  It was out of tune on purpose.  It's very prominent on BB recordings in the few years after the demise of Smile. 

Yes. This is the famous tuning job Marilyn talks about, where Brian sang each note to the guy tuning it.
345  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Pet Sounds Overrated? on: February 06, 2017, 09:41:47 AM
Well Craig, whether or not Sgt Peppers is overrated is an argument we've had before. What I got from your position then, and now, is that Sgt Peppers cannot be called overrated because of its cultural significance.

Genuine question here then...

What term can be applied to something that is elevated to a lofty position, which you just don't get?

Overrated seems to be the best term to use, but it is a wholly subjective one. I think Sgt Peppers is overrated precisely because the cultural significance is, to me at complete odds with the musical content. I just dont think its a good album. Personal opinion. So what other term can I use than overrated? By that argument I have no problem with anyone finding Pet Sounds overrated. I can understand and sympathise with that position.

I look forward to your reply Craig, as long as you are aware of the irony in trying to convince me Sgt Peppers isn't overrated by telling me how important it is  Smiley



Obviously this wasn't directed toward me and guitarfool will have his own response to this but I wanted to share my thoughts as well.

To me, this would be like saying that the moon landing was overrated or World War 2 was overrated. Now today you will find lots of people who quite simply are not interested in stories about the moon landing or WW2, don't understand the significance of these events, and don't want to. And while they don't tend to use the term "overrated" to describe them, I suppose that they could. But to me, this would be missing the point. Sure, people have their own personal interests and it understandable that space travel and war might not fit into those interests. But to call them overrated is to dismiss the overall cultural significance of these events.

To me, I don't see what is wrong with just saying, "I don't particularly like that album because the music does nothing for me."

I'm not downplaying or disregarding the cultural significance, far from it.  I'm saying that, to me, there is a disparity between its significance and the music itself. I find it musically overrated, and that's fine because it's a subjective view.

I don't understand the moon landing or world war II analogy. They weren't creative works. And  only a fool would say those weren't important events.

And surely cultural signicance shifts. Sorry to bring up Wagner again, but from the mid 19th century to the mid 20th century he was widely considered to be one of the worlds greatest composers. Then he fell out of favour after the war.  Mozart on the other hand didn't achieve the huge cultural significance he now has until the 1950s. A bit like Brian, he was considered quite lightweight and frothy before that, although there was always  a constant small group since his death who knew how great he was, and carried the flame. So was Mozart now underrated and is now overrated? Or Wagner vice versa? Meaningless. Its personal taste. I just judge stuff on the music, I find cultural significance a distraction.

Happy for you if you love Sgt Pepper though, and I hope it brings you great pleasure, because that's what music is for. Who cares what anyone else thinks. Smiley
346  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Brian's currently in the studio... on: February 06, 2017, 08:16:55 AM
Brian might be working on a sequal of sorts to Smile, it's called Grin.

Reminds me of the 2003 rumour that Mike was working on an album called SMiRK, anyone remember that?
347  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Pet Sounds Overrated? on: February 05, 2017, 11:48:27 PM
Well Craig, whether or not Sgt Peppers is overrated is an argument we've had before. What I got from your position then, and now, is that Sgt Peppers cannot be called overrated because of its cultural significance.

Genuine question here then...

What term can be applied to something that is elevated to a lofty position, which you just don't get?

Overrated seems to be the best term to use, but it is a wholly subjective one. I think Sgt Peppers is overrated precisely because the cultural significance is, to me at complete odds with the musical content. I just dont think its a good album. Personal opinion. So what other term can I use than overrated? By that argument I have no problem with anyone finding Pet Sounds overrated. I can understand and sympathise with that position.

I look forward to your reply Craig, as long as you are aware of the irony in trying to convince me Sgt Peppers isn't overrated by telling me how important it is  Smiley

348  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Pet Sounds Overrated? on: February 04, 2017, 11:38:31 AM


If I may, DonnyL was quoting Brian Wilson. And I gotta say... I love how much Brian loves his own work.


Ah, I must have missd that one. Very pleased he loves Love You. So he should.
349  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Pet Sounds Overrated? on: February 04, 2017, 10:56:35 AM
I mean, Love You and 15 Big Ones are just as good Smiley

I agree with Love You, as it's  a stunning, original work.

Interested in your hearing your thoughts behind putting 15 Big Ones up there with Pet Sounds,  Donny.
350  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Pet Sounds Overrated? on: February 04, 2017, 04:52:50 AM
The article / blog does get it right in places I think. There are some people (hate the term hipsters) who rave about Pet Sounds whilst dismissing the rest of the catalogue. I've met a few in my time.  So in that respect Pet Sounds is over rated. Musically, culturally, in terms of influence though, absolutely not over rated.

I'm fine with the fact tgat some people, such as the blog author, feel that way, and some of the comments made me smile. Especially those who bigged up the Beatles whilst saying Pet Sounds was an album with a few good songs and the rest was nothing more than filler. That's  EXACTLY how I feel about every Beatles album. Each to their own.   Smiley
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