Aspergers people are brilliant, and whilst I was exaggerating,  there are several Aspies on this site, most definitely. Aspergers people aren't sociopaths,  but they are tough to debate with.

It was meant affectionately, if anything, but thanks for 'Jude'splaining' things for me

[quote author=Hickory Violet Part IV link=topic=25801.msg631582#msg631582 date=1520271049.


I realise a discussion about the complexity of human relationships is difficult on an Aspergers Friendly site such as this, so I'll back off now before the people who 'know their stuff' put me in my place. 

WTF??? 
[/quote]

I work with lots of Aspies. Fantastic people, but due to their inflexibility of position, their obsession with tiny details (without the ability to see the human / social side), and their near pathological need to be right, entering into any sort of debate with them is an exercise in futilty.

Apparently, most people are on the spectrum to some degree,  but on a niche music site you can probably times that by 10 


 

Well, hopefully neither of those posts were directed at me, as I've made it clear I'm not saying they were even close to equal. Perhaps a re-reading of my posts is in order?

I think it's an interesting discussion, Jan's  position as a self produced artist, which as Mark Moore has pointed out was rare, and whether or not this was an influence on Brian. Are people really denying Jan was an early mentor to Brian? Also Brian saw a lot of studio techniques for the first time through Jan.

But perhaps he put his hands over his eyes.


I realise a discussion about the complexity of human relationships is difficult on an Aspergers Friendly site such as this, so I'll back off now before the people who 'know their stuff' put me in my place.   

Peace guys

Jan was primarily a self-produced artist, which was rare in that era. It was just coming into play.

It is highly significant to this discussion that Jan Berry, very much at the vangaurd of this new breed of record producer, was one of Brian's initial mentors.

It is also worth pointing out that the rather dismissive attitude towards Jan Berry on this thread is identical to the derision that used to be directed towards the Beach Boys. When I became a fan in the 80s, it was an upwards struggle to convince people there was something of value to this music when they had already made their minds up.

Jan Berry was no Brian Wilson, but don't dismiss his productions so readily. Here is the confident, self contained producer that Brian observed prior to his own adoption of, and recognition within, the (freshly redefined) role of producer.

I hear a big difference in production on those two songs, regardless of Morgan or Capitol, and regardless of who produced them—a different sound using the same players (Beach Boys). But I still love the originals.

Spector was an influence, for sure, as I said. He had his own sound and style. But I would argue they weren't "Phil's musicians." I think that's one of the fallacies of modern music journalism. They were not unique to his productions. The union players pre-dated that era, as did the union itself. Jan, as an example, began working with those musicians in 1958 (Joe Lubin's productions) and was leading recording sessions with those musicians by late 1961 and early '62.

The union players in Hollywood were everyone's musicians.

Jan had a different sound than Spector, and the signature sound Jan began developing in March 1963 was dense and sophisticated, but still not the Wall of Sound.

Yes, Jan's sound was very clean. Great insrument seperation. He is a sorely underrated producer, and as people have pointed out, I think this was to do with song choice, and overall positioning of the Jan and Dean brand.

I'm going to reclarify my position.

There is no doubt in my mind that Brian first observed techniques that he went on to master and innovate in, from watching Jan Berry. This includes overdubbing. Obviously he was aware of the process due to the sound on sound capabilties of his Wollensak, but he first saw it's use in a studio setting watching Jan cut tracks. I have already reccomended listening to the Fun Fun Fun sessions as an example of Brian utilizing a Jan Berry type approach to overdubbing. After the basic track is cut, the drums and bass and lead guitar get overdubbed again. I believe the guitar intro gets a third overdub. Very much what Jan had been doing. I agree with others that the recordings need to be our prime texts.

It may well be this approach did not originate from Berry, I am not claiming it did. I am claiming that Brian observed it being used by Jan Berry first, and became aware of the endless possibilities.

I'm not a huge Jan and Dean fan musically. Like many others here I find their songs derivative. Any balance of influences between Brian and Jan tips way more in Jan's favour.  I have no doubt they are only remembered today because of the Beach Boys connection.

However,  Jan did have a very good ear in the studio. An excellent ear which led to many excellent sounding records which stand out from that era. I've mentioned the word clean. They are big sounding records, and not in the Spectarian sense.

I have no problem at in saying that Jan was one of Brian's key early influences as a producer, and his influence went on to provide that clean-ness and seperation that marks Brian out from Spector. This influence also includes people management skills,  organisation as well as recording strategies. Jan was a few years older than Brian and had had a few years in the business. He was confident. Through him, Brian saw a model of how to "be" a record producer, a role that was at this time in great transition. He was a mentor. Brian did not develop in a vacuum. For those first few years he watched and learnt from what others were doing. Then he innovated.  He went on to eclipse everyone, from Jan Berry, to Spector, to the Beatles.

I have no problem giving credit were credit is due, and allowing Brian to be a human being who learns from the people around him.

Download and install winrar. It's free and safe

because he, unlike Spector, didn't completely blow Brian off.

I must have missed that in all the books. Now have mental image though which will haunt me forever.

Y'know what -- I do deny it.
It was Spector.

Jan was one of  the first producers Brian observed working. Brian learnt about overdubbing from observing Jan Berry. More importantly, he observed Jan working with session musicians. Being a producer is not just about creativity and music, it's about people management and organisatinal skills. Seeing as Jan had a reputation for being nice to work for and Spector did not, I would say that Brian learnt this side of things from Berry.

Brian did not develop in a vacuum, by all accounts in the early days he was a sponge, soaking everything in. To say that Berry didn't have an influence on Brian as a mentor and early teacher is disingenious. 

And putting aside their music and cultural positioning, J&Ds music has an extremely polished sound. You don't hear that sort of clarity in instruments and particlarly drums in many recordings of that era. He played the studio well, particularly with overdubbing. Very similar to how Brian was putting stuff together in 63 - 64. Listen to the Fun Fun Fun sessions.

Far more Berry than Spector.

Spector didn't overdub all the instruments. 

Double tracking vocals as well. I'm not saying Berry invented the technique, but it was from Berry Brian first observed the practice that went on to define the Beach Boys sound as much, if not more than what he learnt from Spector.

Jan Berry was a huge influence on Brian Wilson as a producer.

A Recipe For Disaster

First, add 5 humourous posts about scraping sheet metal or being a pump attenendant

Then add a sprinkling of Kid Presentable

Cook on a medium setting for about 5 pages or until well done.

Fucking Christ, the horse is long-since dead. Its flesh has rotted and its bones are dust. You’d think it might be funny to watch adults pummeling empty ground with their nobly branded clubs, but unfortunately it just seesaws between tedious and excruciating. I’d pine for the good ol’ days if there were such a thing, but oh well.

I hear the bell signaling the next round, so I’d better clear out before I risk a wallop to the toes. Good luck, combatants. I’m sure you’ll win the day this time. And then we’ll shave world peace.

I don't think anyone is listening Captain.

I intend to listen to your good sense though and stop responding to the small minority on here who seem intent on picking a fight over every small thing.

To answer guitarfool's original questions to me.  He probably contributed very little to the song and he probably deserves little credit.  That is beside the point though.

Here is my view of this, maybe some people will understand where I am coming from.

-Original post about the ending of an 85 year old comic strip that makes a pretty touching sendoff involving WIBN.  One of BW's most enduring and iconic moments.
-Immediate response of some regulars going non-sequitur to the original post about the ML writing credit issue and the usual chuckling emojis. 
-I call it toxic.  It is extracting this obtuse little sticking point from the comic, that has been discussed often here, and doing some good ol' repetitive ML sh!tpostin'.  To me that is toxic.
-Board leadership responds and is like "wait, are you disputing the idiocy of the ML writing credit litigation?"  That is really frustrating, I am not disputing that at all.  Why is that the immediate takeaway here upon seeing the WIBN 45 in the comic strip?  That is probably the biggest question that I have.
-People call me an ML apologist, I think?  I am not, I don't like the guy and it is weird that people immediately think that.
-I am called out in a thread outside of this one that I didn't post in.  Some people mock me.  Multiple oldsurferdude accounts swipe at me.  All of this is okay I guess.
-This thread becomes more about Mike's writing credit litigation.  And, not very much about any of the numerous other directions that the original topic has afforded.  Now I bet someone will say "wellllll why didn't YOU post something constructive in the thread then?" as if that is the only way in which I can criticise. 
-I wonder why more people don't agree with me, and then go on with my day.  Later!

People were just cracking a joke. It was you who made it 'toxic' by yet again trying to censor people. You were doing it on the Beatles thread, you're doing it here. You just can't help yourself, can you?

Things were fine until this

And like clockwork, the first 5 replies to this excellent first post were predictable SSMB toxic pollution.

This board has a wicked sense of humour, which is needed when dealing with this band. What is the problem with making light of Mike's constant missteps?

And if people attack you, it's because you put yourself firmily in the firing line.

'Oh! Those Girls' is kinda sort of a guilty pleasure. I like how Mike sings in a punk type of manner that he never really does on any other released song.

It sounds like something off an Electric Blue video circa 1984, so yes, guilty pleasure is not far off the mark!

I've never read Nancy before, but if the humour has consistently been of this calibre  then why are they ending it?

Surely there are at least another 85  years of side splitting gags like the one show cased above.

I have it on extremely good authority that a Beach Boys session was held at Abbey Road studios yesterday, produced by Nick Patrick and Don Reedman. No members of the BBs were present, but in a similar fashion to the Arethra Franklin and Elvis Presley releases, the boys voices will be retracked with backing from the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra.

Yesterdays session was just for the percussion.

You heard it here first.

Your signature makes this a most delicious post.

I know we've had a few spats, but I'm fond of Range Rover.

The analogy pixletwin gave to simple question regarding Spector's inventiveness doesn't make any sense & is really extreme. Why is it that when I ask some question or say sth. turns out I asked or said sth. "strange"? I think it's valid question. If I didn't know the subject very well, it makes me ask question about it, to many people to get many answers. Is it not what people do usually?

I think that part of it is a translation problem.  Are you perhaps Russian?  I can understand you when you post things but I think that based on whatever your native language is, you think about things a little bit differently or focus on a word meaning in English that is just a little bit different than how a native speaker would use it, and that can create some misunderstandings.  In this case, I think for whatever reason you are focusing on the word "great"- in cases like this great can be used in its normal superlative form of the word good, but it can also mean "something distinctive" or "something that made a lasting impact".  In this case, someone can call Phil Spector's work great and it is applicable.  They can be a big fan of his music, or they can be apathetic towards it, but "great" would still apply.  
You could likewise describe Richard Wagner as great, or Woody Allen as great, or Jane Austen as great.  Even if you yourself don't think what they did is special.
You also shouldn't use the word "samey".

Shhhhhhh, or we'll have to spend three pages explaining why Wagner, Allen and Austen are considered great.

Arghh, too late, Range Rovers just logged in!

You know this was a joke, yes? It wasn't meant unkindly, it was theatrical ribaldry.

No need for anyone to 'step in'. It was an intersting discussion about what Spector brought to music production, at least on my part.

The analogy pixletwin gave to simple question regarding Spector's inventiveness doesn't make any sense & is really extreme. Why is it that when I ask some question or say sth. turns out I asked or said sth. "strange"? I think it's valid question. If I didn't know the subject very well, it makes me ask question about it, to many people to get many answers. Is it not what people do usually?

I think that part of it is a translation problem.  Are you perhaps Russian?  I can understand you when you post things but I think that based on whatever your native language is, you think about things a little bit differently or focus on a word meaning in English that is just a little bit different than how a native speaker would use it, and that can create some misunderstandings.  In this case, I think for whatever reason you are focusing on the word "great"- in cases like this great can be used in its normal superlative form of the word good, but it can also mean "something distinctive" or "something that made a lasting impact".  In this case, someone can call Phil Spector's work great and it is applicable.  They can be a big fan of his music, or they can be apathetic towards it, but "great" would still apply.  
You could likewise describe Richard Wagner as great, or Woody Allen as great, or Jane Austen as great.  Even if you yourself don't think what they did is special.
You also shouldn't use the word "samey".

Shhhhhhh, or we'll have to spend three pages explaining why Wagner, Allen and Austen are considered great.

Arghh, too late, Range Rovers just logged in!

Beach Boys Booed

I don't think there's an out and out stinker on there really, but it just doesn't coalesce as a whole. Not a satisfying listen if you play the whole thing. The tracks on their own are better suited to adding to your own playlists.

I think this could be used as a blanket statement for every post Holland Beach Boys album.

Are you really not satisfied when you complete your listening of TWGMTR? I mean, there may be some duds on there (though I’ve grown to like the duds) but as a whole it is a pretty satisfying listen...in that I don’t take off my headphones and feel negative thoughts about the album. Overall it’s a happy/good listening experience. But that’s just my opinion.

Personally, I love TWGMTR, but I think its partly due to my really getting into the catalog in the summer of 2012. It seems as the album approaches its sixth birthday, fan opinion isn't as positive. 

What a shame if that’s the case. It’s not perfect, but it certainly has really top-notch music on it. I wonder what it’s reputation will be in 30 years.

Unfortunately, I think its rep will continue to decline as the novelty wears off.  That tends to happen with one off reunion albums.  Van Halen released a solid album earlier in 2012 that's been all but forgotten.  Fun fact, both the Van Halen and Beach Boys comeback albums missing hitting #1 on Billboard due to Adele.

For me, its one of my favorite BB albums.  Especially from a consistency standpoint. 

Ha ha, couldn't  stand it from the first listen. Yet again Hickory V is ahead of the curve 

It’s not myth. It really was.

Yes, and 3/4 time was the favoured time signature because of the holy trinity. That's why it's called perfect time.

Sorry, why the f*** is the Smile font included in that?

What is inventive is the sound of the record has now become the important thing, rather than the song or the performer. Up until now recordings had presented the illusion of reality, and though it was often heavily stylised, what was presented to the listener was something that could exist in the real world. With Spector this changes. When listening to the Wall of Sound it is often very difficult to seperate all the seperate instruments out from the overall sound. The implications for this on our relationship with recorded sound was HUGE. It is the noise coming out of the speaker that is important.

So whilst you can point to figures like Les Paul and Joe Meek before him, it is really in Phil Spector's hands that the studio completes its transition from technological tool to creative instrument.

What is inventive about Spector is how he approached the studio.

This resonates down to today.

I bet one of Brian's biggest regrets was writing the song  'Do You Have Any Regrets?'

I regret his production choices on that track in particular.  How To Ruin a Good Song: 101

Mojo mentions "Mike Love Gets Angry".  But he's always angry. Will this be a "pre-meditation" interview or will he just be his usual annoying self exclaiming loudly that I did this, I did that, or that was me along with the ever enticing tape loop Beatles story? Readers beware of SOS.

I respect your opinion about Mike. But to say he is always angry true at all!

He possesses a massive chip on his shoulder when he should be thanking his lucky stars he was Brian's cousin. If you'll note he has stated on many occasions that TM helps keep his anger in check which I thin is complete bullshit. Read the interviews. Look at the HOF speech. There's your angry myKe luHv. 

Yes, and even when he's happy and laughing, he's usuallly laughing at someone elses expense.