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674501 Posts in 27219 Topics by 4010 Members - Latest Member: angleofreason May 16, 2022, 08:21:36 AM
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1  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Thread for various insignificant questions that don't deserve their own thread! on: August 27, 2020, 12:35:50 PM
What is the largest Brian/BB arrangement in terms of sheer number of instruments? Counting overdubs and all.

Iíve been thinking about it and Three Blind Mice is probably up there.
2  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: At what point and where did Brian's complex arrangements / orchestrations begin? on: August 22, 2020, 06:57:39 PM
Thank all of you for the information  Grin

I agree that the complexity of their music in general is evident early on.

In the Back of My Mind is simply beautiful, it sounds like an orchestra falling apart with melancholy. I think Guess I'm Dumb, Do You Wanna Dance, Vega-Tables, Tetter-Totter Love (Yes I'm serious) and Darlin's arrangements are underrated as well.

That is interesting about The Surfer Moon, I wonder if Brian re-did / reused the arrangement for the Bob and Sheri version? It sounds slightly different to me.

That's amazing for Three Blind Mice, it's always been one of my favorite tracks, the orchestra is huge and Brian makes use of it.

That leads me to another question, is Three Blind Mice the largest BB/Brian arrangement/orchestration that they ever recorded instrument wise? I feel like the Dick Reynolds arrangements might be about the same in sheer number of musicians, but Three Blind Mice seems more diverse. The question stands in terms of overdubs as well, I know Good Vibrations and Heroes and Villains have an insane number of instruments in that right. Does anybody know a track that rivals Three Blind Mice's 43 piece orchestra? I might just be blanking and can't think of anything.

Also, I forgot about Thinkin' Bout You Baby  Cheesy

3  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / At what point and where did Brian's complex arrangements / orchestrations begin? on: August 21, 2020, 08:29:53 AM
I am not just referring to complexity in it of itself, but the use of orchestral instruments and such.

I know many refer to The Surfer Moon as where the string sections started, but did Brian arrange or orchestrate that? I remember C-man sometime last year saying that the arrangement was reportedly Bob Norberg and Jan Berry, is this true? Is this also true for the arrangement on the Bob and Sheri version?

I'm also referring to the difference between arrangement and orchestration.

Did Brian orchestrate tracks that weren't arranged by him?

Three Blind Mice was written by Brian, but I'm not sure who it was arranged/orchestrated by, I've heard Dick Reynolds was mentoring Brian on arranging for larger groups, but did he do Three Blind Mice as Well? There is also How Deep Is the Ocean and Stella by Starlight.

Was arrangement and orchestration done at the same time? If Brian didn't arrange Three Blind Mice, did he orchestrate it at least, since he produced it?

Also did he continue to arrange string sections and such post-pet sounds / smile for the band? Such as Wake the World, the horns on Darlin', or Add Some Music (though I've heard this is a Chamberlin.


Any information would be nice : )
4  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Pacific Ocean Blue at 40 on: August 23, 2017, 02:14:32 AM
One of my favorite albums. I'm glad it's getting recognition in recent years
5  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Who played what on The Little Girl I Once Knew? on: August 20, 2017, 04:56:12 PM
All the information i can find is that Carol Kaye plays Bass and Don Randi plays organ. I was wondering if the guitar parts could be Carl...
6  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Who exactly are Jim Dutch and Michael Horn? on: August 13, 2017, 02:25:05 PM
The ones from Pacific Ocean Blue that co-wrote What's Wrong and Thoughts of You. I like those songs a lot and was wondering who they are. Like where they are from and what they do, I can't find any info on them
7  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Did Van Dyke Parks contribute to the arrangements on Smile? on: August 12, 2017, 06:36:42 PM
I noticed that he plays on a bunch of songs and was wondering if it was possible that he contributed to the arrangements
8  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Who played 12 string guitar and Bass on That's Not Me? on: August 11, 2017, 04:20:44 PM
Thanks everyone for clearing this up.

Correct me if i'm wrong but the personnel comes to this:

Brian - Organ, Dano Bass Guitar, Fender Bass Guitar
Dennis- Drums
Carl- 6-string electric guitar, 12-string electric guitar (doubled)
Terry Melcher - Tambourine
Steve Korthof- Tambourine
Hal Blaine- "Wooden Percussion Instrument"

9  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Who played 12 string guitar and Bass on That's Not Me? on: August 09, 2017, 08:27:50 PM
I see conflicting sources. Some say Carl played 12 string and regular guitar and Brian played bass and organ. Others says Glen Campbell played 12 string. So who actually played what ?
10  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Questions About Who Played What On Good Vibrations on: January 21, 2017, 04:41:41 PM
<<So Carl's playing did make it on the final mix, just in the fade out.>>

Well, his playing is also present in the second bridge...but he's on shaker there, not guitar or bass. Smiley


Ha that kinda slipped my mind. Carl is almost as good as playing the shaker as Brian is at playing "everything".

Now the real question is which shakes are Carl's and which are Hal's?  Cheesy
11  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Questions About Who Played What On Good Vibrations on: January 11, 2017, 05:14:02 PM
Verses Only 2/18/66 (Pet Sounds Session)
Fender Bass: Ray Pohlman
Upright Bass: Lyle Ritz
Hammond Organ: Larry Knechtel
Drums: Hal Blaine
Bongos/with Sticks: Frank Capp
Tambourine: Terry Melcher?
Piccolo: Plas Johnson
Flute: Jay Migliori
Tenor Flute: Steve Douglas
Contra-Clarinet: Bill Green

Choruses Only (Part 3) 6/2/66 This ones a bit tricky because some instruments were only played on Part 1. For instance played Carl played Rhythm Guitar at this Session and Brian played Tack Piano. To my ears it sounds like this.
Fender Bass : Lyle Ritz
Drums: Hal Blaine/ Tom Fills as OD
Electric Harpsichord: Don Randi
Tambourine: Brian Wilson as OD with Hal playing his Toms.
Electro-Theremin: Paul Tanner OD which was replaced on 9/12/66 with a better part by Tanner.
Cello: Jesse Ehrlich as OD
Dano Bass (with Fuzztone): Bill Pitman

1st Bridge (First Chorus) 5/4/66
Electric Rhythm guitars: Al Casey, Jerry Cole
Fender Bass: Ray Pohlman
Dano Bass (with Fuzztone): Bill Pitman
Upright Bass: Jimmy Bond
Tack Piano: Al de Lory (Plus a Second one as OD)
Drums: Jim Gordon
Bongos with Sticks: Frank Capp
Electro-Theremin: Paul Tanner
Bass Harmonica: Tommy Morgan
Piccolo: Jim Horn
Flute: Jay Migliori
Tenor Flute: Steve Douglas
Bass Sax: Bill Green
Jews Harp: Tommy Morgan as OD
Tambourines: Frank Capp and Hal Blaine? as ODs
Sleighbells: Jim Gordon as OD

2nd Bridge (New Bridge) 9/1/66
Hammond Organ: Dennis Wilson
Upright Bass: Lyle Ritz
Shakers: Hal Blaine and Carl Wilson
Chromatic Harmonica: Tommy Morgan. It just says harmonica but, a regular harmonica can't hit those octaves in which a Chromatic can.

Tag and Fadeout 5/27/66 (Fade Sequence)
Tambourine: Steve Douglas
Upright Piano: Mike Melvoin
Dano Bass (With Fuzztone): Bill Pitman
Fender Bass: Arthur Wright
Upright Bass: Lyle Ritz
Vibes: Emil Richards
Electric Rhythm Guitar: Carl Wilson (Fadeout Only)
Sleighbells: Gary Coleman (Fade Out Only)
Electo-Theremin: Paul Tanner (Fadeout Only?)
Piccolos: Jim Horn and Plas Johnson (Fadeout Only)
Flutes: Steve Douglas and Jay Migliori (Fadeout Only)
Drums: Jim Gordon (Fadeout only)
Cello: Jesse Ehrlich? as OD on the final Master for the Fadeout. Date unknown.

Maybe C-Man can fix this. It's the best I could figure out.









Ah thank you very much

So Carl's playing did make it on the final mix, just in the fade out.

I was very curious about those lower register parts. Are you aware at which points in the song the contra-Clarinet and bass sax are audible? Or do they just blend in with the flutes ands piccolos?
12  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Questions About Who Played What On Good Vibrations on: January 11, 2017, 02:01:31 PM
So recently I have ever been examining my Smile Sessions hardback book and several questions have been raised about the sessionography on Good Vibrations.

Each tracking session date shows all the instruments that were played over the whole part recorded, while only some parts of each session were used. My main question is which instruments are played on which section of the song?

 It's hard for me to differentiate between which instruments are in the spliced out sections and which ones aren't .

Also I'd like to know if Carl's guitar playing made it on the final mix. He appears on many of session listings and for parts that were spliced into the final mix but again I can't tell which is him.

I hope this makes sense, I don't really know how to word this question.
13  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Did Van Dyke Parks write all of the lyrics on Smile? on: December 28, 2016, 04:06:02 AM
Okay so I know there are certain songs such as you're welcome that he is not credited on, but I mean most of the other songs have his credits.

As far as I have known he didn't contribute much musically. But I'm wordering, did he write every single lyric where he is credited, co-write with Brian, or did Brian come up with the concept and wrote out the words?

I remember Tony Asher saying that Brian came up with the concept for wouldnt it be nices lyrics while he wrote out the words.

Is this also what happened on Smile? Did they alternate roles?

I'd really like to know. Thanks!

14  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: God Only Knows Instruments/Credits on: September 26, 2016, 05:40:18 PM

Assuming the three-bass scenario led me to originally conclude that Carl must be playing the guitar, but as I later pointed out on this board, and as you mentioned above, the jazzy guitar doodling between takes points to a studio pro rather than Carl, and according to someone on this board, Terry Melcher had gone on record as saying Carl did not play on the session. If Bruce was recalling that he did, perhaps he was thinking of a different session (do we have a source for that Bruce quote)?


In the September 1990 edition of Select magazine, Bruce makes the following observation about the GOK session:

"I was there!...Carl was in the booth playing 12-string cos there was no more room. And there were about six fiddles - we didn't call them strings, they were fiddles - and an electric bass and an acoustic bass and a keyboard and some percussion, and the guy who's playing the drums."

Hmm...well, maybe Carl and Carol BOTH played 12-string on this session (the way Carl and Jerry Cole both played 12-string on "California Girls", and Barney and Glen both played 12-string on some of the other Pet Sounds cuts). Carol definitely played 12-string electric on the second session of "Good Vibrations" (April 9th at Gold Star), and most likely on "I'm Waiting For The Day" (similar situation to "GOK" - apparently only two basses, definitely Ray on the Fender and Lyle on the upright, leaving Carol as the probable guitarist) and the basic track to "Caroline, No" (although she also overdubbed the Dano bass on that one).


Also I thought I would bring these up. I have no idea if these are reliable sources or not. I am dedicated to get to the bottom of this!

http://www.surfermoon.com/essays/owncharts.html Carol

http://abbeyrd.best.vwh.net/carolkay.htm Carol

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XByMda7YooI Isolated strings, horns, percussion, and bass

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCTVcNsJGX0

Again, I don't know if these are reliable



15  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: God Only Knows Instruments/Credits on: September 26, 2016, 05:28:19 PM

Assuming the three-bass scenario led me to originally conclude that Carl must be playing the guitar, but as I later pointed out on this board, and as you mentioned above, the jazzy guitar doodling between takes points to a studio pro rather than Carl, and according to someone on this board, Terry Melcher had gone on record as saying Carl did not play on the session. If Bruce was recalling that he did, perhaps he was thinking of a different session (do we have a source for that Bruce quote)?


In the September 1990 edition of Select magazine, Bruce makes the following observation about the GOK session:

"I was there!...Carl was in the booth playing 12-string cos there was no more room. And there were about six fiddles - we didn't call them strings, they were fiddles - and an electric bass and an acoustic bass and a keyboard and some percussion, and the guy who's playing the drums."

Hmm...well, maybe Carl and Carol BOTH played 12-string on this session (the way Carl and Jerry Cole both played 12-string on "California Girls", and Barney and Glen both played 12-string on some of the other Pet Sounds cuts). Carol definitely played 12-string electric on the second session of "Good Vibrations" (April 9th at Gold Star), and most likely on "I'm Waiting For The Day" (similar situation to "GOK" - apparently only two basses, definitely Ray on the Fender and Lyle on the upright, leaving Carol as the probable guitarist) and the basic track to "Caroline, No" (although she also overdubbed the Dano bass on that one).









This is all very interesting. If Carl and Carol did indeed both play on the song then did they trade parts back and forth and switch out?

On Bruce's account he says "six fiddles". I had always assumed it was a string quartet and not 6 strings. I guess there is really no way to tell while just listening.

As for the Clarinets and Saxophones i've been trying ever so hard to hear, I recently thought I heard the bass clarinet playing along side the cello and perhaps the saxophones playing along side the accordians, most noticable at the end. Though, it could just be my ears playing tricks on me...

Also thanks for the Bruce quote, I couldn't remember where I had heard it from.
16  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: God Only Knows Instruments/Credits on: September 25, 2016, 04:11:50 PM
Based on my extensive examination of the session tape and AFM contract, and input from a few others on this board, here is the conclusion I have come to:

Tack piano (w/strings taped): Don Randi
Harpsichord: Larry Knechtel
12-string electric rhythm guitar: Carol Kaye
Fender bass (w/tic-tac effect): Ray Pohlman
Upright bass: Lyle Ritz
Sleighbells & Drums: Hal Blaine
Plastic orange juice cups w/sticks: Jim Gordon
Tambourine: Terry Melcher
Accordions: Carl Fortina and Frank Marocco
French horn: Alan Robinson
Alto flutes & Flutes: Bill Green and Jim Horn
Clarinet: Jay Migliori     
Bass clarinet & Clarinet: Leonard Hartman
Violins: Sid Sharp (leader) and Leonard Malarsky
Viola: Darrel Terwilliger
Cello: Jesse Erlich

There were absolutely NO overdubs on this magnificent recording, other than the vocals - however, the tag was spliced in from a separate take.


Thanks for the information. It's pretty cool how Terry played tambourine on this, never knew that.

I have read in Mark Dillion's "Fifty Sides of The Beach Boys" that he speculates that the man called "Tony" could be Tony Asher playing tambourine. Is there any evidence to support this?

I'm guessing by what you said that the saxophones didn't make the final cut or are burred in the mix. Also regarding the clarinets/bass clarinet, do you know of any specific point in the song where they are audible? I can hear them in the sessions but not in the final version, unless it's them playing along side the flutes or french horn.

Also thanks for clearing up the no over-dubs part. I don't know where the "3 bass parts" speculation has come from.   
17  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / God Only Knows Instruments/Credits on: September 25, 2016, 12:38:09 PM
So I have recently been trying to pick out each instrument in God Only Knows out of curiosity and to show the brilliance of Brian's arrangements.

I have been looking at various sessionographys and i'm beginning to notice many conflicting sources and credits. For example, I have seen a few sources that state that God Only Knows uses a string quartet (two violins, one viola, and one cello), and yet i have seen other sources that state a string octet is used (five violins, two violas, and one cello). I cannot tell which is true just by listening to the song alone. I have listened to the sessions and still cannot tell.

Another conflicting credit that I have also noticed is regarding the bass parts. I have seen sources that state their are two bass parts (a bass guitar and an upright bass) and other sources that that state there are three bass parts (two bass guitars and one upright bass). There is also the subject if overdubbing was used for the bass parts.

Now another debated topic for the instrument usage is the argument between whether an organ or harpsichord was used (or both). I heard Brian directly address the harpsichord in the sessions but that does not entirely rule out the possibility that both were used, as organ was also credited and yet harpsichord wasn't even though Brian directly addressed the harpsichord in the sessions.

An even more debated topic is the argument of the guitar part and if it was Carl playing it. Carl isn't credited on the sessions notes but that doesn't rule out him playing it due to the fact that the notes are known not to always credit everyone. Before i couldn't even hear the guitar part but then I finally noticed it at the beginning of the second verse. I don't know if this is true or not or where I even heard it but I remember hearing something about Bruce saying Carl was at the session playing 12-string directly plugged into the console, if anyone can find a source for this please let me know. I have listened to the sessions and I do hear another voice that sounds kinda like Brian which could be Carl, but the noodling on the session is jazz based, which i've never heard Carl do before, but I don't think that rules it out entirely since God Only Knows uses a lot of jazzy chords and i assume Carl could have been practicing, if it was him, but that's just an assumption.

I also hear Brian refer to a bass clarinet in the sessions and even see some sources state that their are two clarinets and a bass clarinet, however I cannot make any out in the song. Are there any specific points in the song where they are audible? Or are they burred in the mix?

Also regarding instruments burred in the mix, I also see a "saxophone" and baritone sax credited in the notes, again I can't make any out in the song and ask if there is any point in the song where they are specifically audible.

I know this topic is a bit of a can of worms but i'm really curious and if anyone could confirm any of these assumptions it would be much appreciated.  
18  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / The Beach Boys' Legacy In 200 Years on: September 23, 2016, 06:16:47 PM
Okay I know this is a very odd topic and most will probably find it dumb and impossible to answer but I want to hear your guys opinions.

How do you guys think the Beach Boys will be regarded  in 200 years? The reason I say 200 is because that's almost how long it's been since Ludwig Van Beethoven died, and today most view him as one of the most important composers ever in terms of musical influence and accomplishments, and yes I know The beach Boys are one of the biggest and most influential bands ever but i'm not talking about now, in the future. Beethoven's music is often regarded as "timeless". Will the Beach Boys music possibly be regarded as "timeless"? In what sense? Will only their more famous works survive the test of time, or will some of their underrated masterpieces gain in favor over the years? Will people look back and say that they were game changers? Even more so than we do today?

Will their contributions to music be remembered and revered? Will Brian's revolutionary musical structures,arrangements,and studio techniques hold up all of the music in the future? Will their music be studied more (because I know it already is)? Will each individual Beach Boys' legacy live on? Or just the Wilsons?

Again kind of a question with no answer, i just wanna hear your guys thoughts on this topic.



Don't hurt me i'm new here...
19  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Brian's Keyboard Playing On Smile on: September 22, 2016, 04:56:52 PM
Being new to this message board I thought i might as well ask you guys some questions, after all you are Beach Boys experts.

I am very curious about Brian's instrumental contributions to the planned Smile album/The Smile Sessions as I am a big fan of his playing style and always love to see the mastermind of the music play right on the front lines.

So far I have been able to gather that he played piano on Surf's Up and played Harpsichord on Wonderful (correct me if i'm wrong). But is that it? I have also heard that he played organ but haven't been able to find anything to confirm this.

A lot of the songs on the album contain piano and various keyboard instruments. For example: Heroes and Villains, Do You Like Worms, Good Vibrations and Wind Chimes. But Heroes and Villains, Wind Chimes, and Good Vibrations' piano parts are played by session musicians and the tack piano part on Do You Like Worms is played by Van Dyke Parks.

I've noticed that Vega-Tables, Child Is The Father of The Man, Fire, and Look (Song For The Children) all contain prominent keyboard parts. Piano on Vega-Tables and Child Is The Father of The Man, Organ on Fire, and supposedly clavichord on Look (Song For The Children).

I haven't seen anything confirming the personnel for said songs (except the vocals). So I ask, is it possible that Brian provided the keyboard parts for said songs? Is there any confirmation on the full personnel for each song? Or was it a session musician/Van Dyke providing the parts?

I am most curious about who played the piano part on Vega-Tables, really like that hypnotic playing.



And yes I know Dennis provided a short organ part for Good Vibrations...




Did you know that there is detailed sessionography created by C-Man that comes with the Smile Sessions box set? Endless and wondrous details about who played what is included.


Looks like I have a lot of reading to do on C-Man's works
20  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Brian's Keyboard Playing On Smile on: September 22, 2016, 04:39:28 PM
[...footsteps returning as Matt comes back from studying his box set]

OK, I didn't do too badly: looks like, in addition to the above, Brian played pianos on the sessions for Child Is Father Of The Man (which I'd forgotten). He was also on sundry bits and pieces of SMiLE that probably wouldn't have made the final album if it had been finished (but then again, who knows...?) such as DaDa (the original idea from December 1966, not the 'developed' arrangement recorded as I Love To Say Dada six months later), He Gives Speeches, and electric harpsichord on Cool Cool Water (but that's from June 1967, so he was probably more into Smiley Smile sessions by then, although that's another 'can of worms' situation I'm not getting into here either...!).

As far as I can see, BW played tack piano on a section of Good Vibrations that ended up being the choruses in the final version, but that's it for his instrumental contribution to GV. I think we can forgive him that, though, as it's fair to say he was *pretty* involved in the writing, production and mixing of the track... just a bit!

This is an interesting point, though - instrumentally speaking, he wasn't actually heavily 'on' a lot of the albums that are considered his finest work. Of course, he's all over those records in plenty of other very important ways, but it shows that he was happy not to dominate the playing when he was at the height of his game.

Thanks for the information. The Vega-Tables and Child Is The Father of The Man that you are referring to are the ones on the 2 disc set as well, correct?

As far as Brian's playing on Pet Sounds goes I'm pretty sure he plays Piano on the title track and Organ on That's Not Me,as far as I know, and I'm guessing that my accusation that he played harpsichord on Wonderful is correct.
21  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Brian's Keyboard Playing On Smile on: September 21, 2016, 04:29:25 PM
Being new to this message board I thought i might as well ask you guys some questions, after all you are Beach Boys experts.

I am very curious about Brian's instrumental contributions to the planned Smile album/The Smile Sessions as I am a big fan of his playing style and always love to see the mastermind of the music play right on the front lines.

So far I have been able to gather that he played piano on Surf's Up and played Harpsichord on Wonderful (correct me if i'm wrong). But is that it? I have also heard that he played organ but haven't been able to find anything to confirm this.

A lot of the songs on the album contain piano and various keyboard instruments. For example: Heroes and Villains, Do You Like Worms, Good Vibrations and Wind Chimes. But Heroes and Villains, Wind Chimes, and Good Vibrations' piano parts are played by session musicians and the tack piano part on Do You Like Worms is played by Van Dyke Parks.

I've noticed that Vega-Tables, Child Is The Father of The Man, Fire, and Look (Song For The Children) all contain prominent keyboard parts. Piano on Vega-Tables and Child Is The Father of The Man, Organ on Fire, and supposedly clavichord on Look (Song For The Children).

I haven't seen anything confirming the personnel for said songs (except the vocals). So I ask, is it possible that Brian provided the keyboard parts for said songs? Is there any confirmation on the full personnel for each song? Or was it a session musician/Van Dyke providing the parts?

I am most curious about who played the piano part on Vega-Tables, really like that hypnotic playing.



And yes I know Dennis provided a short organ part for Good Vibrations...



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