Well, if the tapes were no longer going to be used by Redwood, what else was going to happen to them?

So you're focusing on one song which was finished and released later while ignoring the other song related to the incident which has logical motivation behind it, for Mike, a least? .... Um OK.

Isn't Desper on record talking about The Beach Boys re-recording the backing tracks for TTGA?

I wasn't even going to reply to something like this, but do you think those of us reading this thread are idiots or something? The TTGA tapes were currently in use by Redwood in October 67, were being worked on by Brian and Redwood at Heider's, and were slated to be a Redwood project of some kind when Carl and Mike took the masters and ended the work being done by Brian for Redwood. Is that not clear enough?

And how am I ignoring the other song Darlin when I wrote at least two paragraphs or more about it and its construction back on page 2? For f***'s sake.

If it's at a point where common sense is being challenged like this in order to make a point or to further deviate from what the original issues are and were, we're seriously f***ed. And I mean that.

Man, do you really have to fly off the handle so easily?

And just because you say something or make a statement, it does not make it the final word for everyone else.

Time To Get Over Yourself should be a tune.

Based on the youtube clip, he only mentions Mike as rubbing people the wrong way and Mike having vocalizing a problem with those songs going to Redwood. He mentions Carl as being the referee so I would assume Carl went along to be a mediator and make sure things didn't get too out of hand. We don't really know if it did or didn't since we don't really know how much (or little) it would have taken on that day to bring Brian to tears.

If Mike was listed as co writer for Darlin' and Redwood recorded it while signed to Brothers Records, Mike still would have seen financial gain from them getting the song. I can understand wanting a hit song for yourself but it's not like Brian was throwing it in the wind with no financial gain from it. But like guitarfool mentioned, it doesn't explain why they left with the TTGA tapes considering they had no hand in writing the tune. I could be wrong but for a short period of time, wasn't there the idea of TTGA going to be released as a single? I thought I'd read somewhere the before or after a show Carl mentioned to someone that TTGA would be the next single. It never happened but if they thought that it had the potential to be a single, it might explain why they wanted that song as well.

As co-writer of the tune is it insane to imagine Mike just wanted to get to sing on it himself and have his band do it?

So maybe the Redwood incident was as simple as a disagreement. Brian was using their song for Redwood but in this case Mike, a co-author, and the other(s) possibly wanted to use it for the Boys.

The "Redwood incident" did not involve the song Darlin alone, are you forgetting or leaving out the song "Time To Get Alone"? That was a produced recording which was written by Brian and actually had gone beyond the "guide vocal" stage to the point where those mid-October sessions at Heider's were finalizing the track. At that point in time, Darlin was basically a track with a guide vocal, and Time To Get Alone was having the finishing touches added at Wally Heider's in mid October '67. The scene where the Beach Boys - Carl and Mike - came to the studio during a Redwood session happened at Heider's.

If it were a case of a disagreement over a song which possibly had co-writing issues in play, then why or how did a song which Brian alone wrote and produced and was finishing up for Redwood in line with the agreed structure of Brother Records opening up the opportunity for this to happen wind up getting swept up in the whole thing?

With Time To Get Alone, it was at that point a mostly finished track, again written and produced by Brian and slated for Redwood in line with how Brother was to be run, if you believe Mike's own description of it which I posted earlier.

So again, short of specific proof of who wrote what for Darlin or trying to pin down the original purpose or intended use of that song, how would you (or anyone) say Time To Get Alone became a part of this so-called "disagreement" if the song was Brian's and Brian's alone?

We're putting all the focus on Darlin and leaving Time To Get Alone out of the equation, when TTGA is a major part of what happened.

With Time To Get Alone, could it be that there were no issues and that after Redwood stopped working with Brian that they didn't take it with them when they got there new deal as Three Dog Night?

Time To Get Alone was a major part of the issue in general: Carl and Mike took the tapes, and took what was slated to be a Redwood song and production with them. They had nothing with that recording at that point to take with them even if they wanted to.

And again, this was a song which was mostly finished, and which had nothing to do with even the possibility that a co-authorship or intended use for the band was causing some kind of disagreement that led to this. TTGA was Brian's song and Brian's production for an artist he wanted to bring onto the Brother label, and basically the Beach Boys called an end to the whole process and took the tapes with them, as of Fall 1967. Redwood was left with nothing to carry with them in terms of a release or anything to take to another interested party, it basically ended at Heider's studio that day when Carl and Mike came in.

I always thought that that whole scene was mostly over Darlin' and TTGA was just along for the ride. Darlin' was the tune that was recorded and released right away, while TTGA was more than a year away from getting released.

But consider the importance of TTGA to Brian in all of this. There was a lot of work put into that recording, and more. Consider too that the Beach Boys took the master tapes for TTGA which unlike Darlin was all but finished for Redwood and with Redwood's vocals in the process of being finalized (we can hear that mix in 2014) and which the Beach Boys had no involvement in. If that is the suggestion with Darlin, that in some way the Beach Boys felt they could stake a claim in Darlin as something they could take and use via songwriting credits or other issues, TTGA had no ties at all in that way to the group, yet the song and the master tapes got taken along with Darlin by the group.

TTGA was slated to be a Redwood song, again with no BB's involvement up to that point in terms of creating it, and Brian was following the Brother template by producing it for an outside artist. Somehow that leads to the master tapes of TTGA being taken? Again, that still needs to be explained to me.

Well, if the tapes were no longer going to be used by Redwood, what else was going to happen to them?

So you're focusing on one song which was finished and released later while ignoring the other song related to the incident which has logical motivation behind it, for Mike, a least? .... Um OK.

Isn't Desper on record talking about The Beach Boys re-recording the backing tracks for TTGA?

Can I ask everyone a question in relation to the "driving Brian to tears" thing?

Generally, in life, are we always directly responsible for how any given person reacts to what we might say to them? If we say mean things to them, insult them, make fun of them: sure, we likely intended to hurt them, therefore them being driven to tears is something we are directly responsible for.... Now, in the Darlin/TTGA situation, we DO NOT know what was said to Brian or what Brian said to Mike or Carl. We can assume something along the lines of "hey, we (The Beach Boys) should be doing these songs, blah blah, which is not an example of someone being mean, horrible, or out to hurt anyone.

Just something to consider before Carl becomes the next big slobbering and evil Beach Boys villain!

Blaming Mike for everything is already a religion basically, so we'll forget about him for the moment.

Good. So we resolved it all. Brian deserved to be abused, Mike was right in driving him to tears, and everything worked out for the best.

No one is saying sandy thing like that

And sure Time To Get Alone was a huge part of the issue, but what I'm saying is, Darlin might have been what got the ball rolling.

I, for one, am glad it happened. We have two stone cold Beach Boys classics that came from the incident and Redwood did just fine as Three Dog Night.

So maybe the Redwood incident was as simple as a disagreement. Brian was using their song for Redwood but in this case Mike, a co-author, and the other(s) possibly wanted to use it for the Boys.

The "Redwood incident" did not involve the song Darlin alone, are you forgetting or leaving out the song "Time To Get Alone"? That was a produced recording which was written by Brian and actually had gone beyond the "guide vocal" stage to the point where those mid-October sessions at Heider's were finalizing the track. At that point in time, Darlin was basically a track with a guide vocal, and Time To Get Alone was having the finishing touches added at Wally Heider's in mid October '67. The scene where the Beach Boys - Carl and Mike - came to the studio during a Redwood session happened at Heider's.

If it were a case of a disagreement over a song which possibly had co-writing issues in play, then why or how did a song which Brian alone wrote and produced and was finishing up for Redwood in line with the agreed structure of Brother Records opening up the opportunity for this to happen wind up getting swept up in the whole thing?

With Time To Get Alone, it was at that point a mostly finished track, again written and produced by Brian and slated for Redwood in line with how Brother was to be run, if you believe Mike's own description of it which I posted earlier.

So again, short of specific proof of who wrote what for Darlin or trying to pin down the original purpose or intended use of that song, how would you (or anyone) say Time To Get Alone became a part of this so-called "disagreement" if the song was Brian's and Brian's alone?

We're putting all the focus on Darlin and leaving Time To Get Alone out of the equation, when TTGA is a major part of what happened.

Because with Darlin we have a co-author motivation for Mike which probably meant Time To Get Alone got lumped in with that issue as another song The Beach Boys should have (in their opinion) been recording instead of Redwood.

Any earlier song Brian and Mike gave to another artist, we can assume they agreed upon doing so. If they hadn't agreed on doing the same with Darlin, well here might lie the root of the situation... And do we really think a "brow beating" was necessary at that time to reduce Brian to tears? ... I'm not trying to defend anyone or blame/slam Brian, I'm just trying to open this up to where we can be empathetic to EVERYONE involved... A band is a business and this band was also a family... Such things happen in both.

And are we really supposed to sit here and "reevaluate" Carl's character because he got his way once over Brian's objections?

I've seen arguments over the set list for a show drive people into screaming, sobbing fits..... Bands are rarely a pretty thing on the inside.

[Brian, being overly sensitive or not, was still bringing other people into the Beach Boy's only studio and working on a song composed by him and another Beach Boy, presumably intended for The Beach Boys, at a time when The Beach Boys had flames to their feet.... Maybe the others were being harsh assholes, but Brian's actions still count as being less than cool. Actions speak words too, ya know?]

I wonder what Mike's contributions to Darlin were exactly, as the credit reads (and has always read) Brian Wilson/Mike Love.

I know it was a re-jig of an earlier song by Brian/Mike called Thinking About My Baby (or something) ..... but was it re-written by Brian and Mike, or just Brian? .... Either way, with Mike having been a partial creator of the song in question, we can perhaps understand his apparent irritation a bit more.

Also, we don't know if The Beach Boys had brought the subject up "nicely" before the witnessed incident, so we don't know where at wit's end they might have been when this all went down.... Or maybe there were just being bullies .... Brian, being overly sensitive or not, was still bringing other people into the Beach Boy's only studio and working on a song composed by him and another Beach Boy, presumably intended for The Beach Boys, at a time when The Beach Boys had flames to their feet.... Maybe the others were being harsh assholes, but Brian's actions still count as being less than cool. Actions speak words too, ya know?

The statement that Brian was bringing other people into the Beach Boys' "only studio" is inaccurate. Check the various sessionographies, the majority of Wild Honey tracks and in general most sessions from October and November 1967 were done at Wally Heider's. This would include, too, "Time To Get Alone" by Redwood, and the Beach Boys own Darlin vocals, cut at Heider's October 27.

The Beach Boys had no ownership or financial interest in Wally Heider's then-new studio in LA, as far as anyone knows. And the home studio was still being built up into something permanent up to the Friends sessions in '68. So in no way did the band have only one studio, or rely on one studio to record.

The issue of paying studio fees to me is a red herring in this whole thing, as is the suggestion of Brian working with outside artists somehow being considered a negative.

*All* of the Beach Boys who had interest in Brother Records were in agreement with and supported the business model and plan started by David Anderle and picked up by Nick Grillo, throughout 1967. This includes Mike, who supported what David Anderle was doing from a financial standpoint and in how the business plans could benefit the band financially. One of the major elements of that business model and plan was to open up a business structure which would allow band members to scout, record, produce, develop, and release material from outside artists.

In the summer of 1967 Mike Love himself signed the comedy act "The Pickle Brothers" who had opened concerts for the BB's to the Brother label, and produced a session with them in the fall of 1967 for Brother.

Brian's choice of an outside artist to produce and record was Redwood.

Dennis later brought in Manson to record.

Carl later brought The Flame to the Brother label.

Right there, you have the four band members who had controlling interest in Brother Records each bringing in outside artists to demo, record/produce, and hopefully release in the form of a record in order to generate income for the Brother label and business structure...very much according to one of the key elements in the business plan which established Brother as a business venture for the band.

In that way, someone I think needs to explain to me how Brian bringing in the group Redwood to produce was any different in terms of following the Brother business plan than Mike bringing in the Pickle Brothers in the weeks prior to the Redwood sessions.

And as far as paying studio fees, that too was an investment as part of the Brother business plan, similar to how Brother would have paid the studio costs for The Flame, Manson, The Pickle Brothers, and any number of outside acts which band members other than Brian brought onto the Brother label.

Thank you. That clears up a crucial part of the issue .....

Only in Beach Boys-land would you get "The Pickle Brothers" and Manson popping up in the same topic of discussion!

But what about Mike being co-author of Darlin being a possible factor in his not being thrilled that Brian was recording it with some other group?

Oh, and as for why the Beach Boys might care about Brian bringing another group in to record a pop single written by two Beach Boys vs not giving a shite about Mike bringing in a comedy trio to record comedy bits? ...... Well, ...... I think the answer lies within the question and is perfectly obvious.

I wonder what Mike's contributions to Darlin were exactly, as the credit reads (and has always read) Brian Wilson/Mike Love.

I know it was a re-jig of an earlier song by Brian/Mike called Thinking About My Baby (or something) ..... but was it re-written by Brian and Mike, or just Brian? .... Either way, with Mike having been a partial creator of the song in question, we can perhaps understand his apparent irritation a bit more.

Also, we don't know if The Beach Boys had brought the subject up "nicely" before the witnessed incident, so we don't know where at wit's end they might have been when this all went down.... Or maybe there were just being bullies .... Brian, being overly sensitive or not, was still bringing other people into the Beach Boy's only studio and working on a song composed by him and another Beach Boy, presumably intended for The Beach Boys, at a time when The Beach Boys had flames to their feet.... Maybe the others were being harsh assholes, but Brian's actions still count as being less than cool. Actions speak words too, ya know?

Didn't either Negron or Hutton also say (in regards to Redwood/Darlin-gate) that if Mike was the big bad guy here, that they didn't blame him and would have done the same thing if they were in his shoes?

Good enough for me to move on.

Maybe the sentiment of Mike/Carl being unhappy about a potential hit being given away was perfectly understandable to them, but that the method and way which it ultimately went down (the act of communicating this displeasure to Brian) was in and of itself very uncool. Just a possibility to consider.

Oh, I'm not saying they weren't "assholes" about it or couldn't have dealt with it better, but considering the precarious situation there were in financially, popularity-wise, and general in-need-of-a-hit-ness, one can be a bit sympathetic for a bit of hurt feelings/panic/anger ..... Sometimes in live such emotions can be perfectly valid.

I’m just guessing that the outsiders witnessed a probable unhealthy family communication style (complicated by the BB band dynamic), and may have observed what they as outsiders believed to be a bullying communication style. Yes, the dreaded “b” word, which I know is completely unacceptable for some people to ever associate in the remotest of remote ways with Mike.

But face it – maybe, just maybe it did happen like that. We don’t know. I wouldn’t outright dismiss the possibility. I think in particular the situation comes off a bit seeming in that way, since I’d imagine Brian branching out to work with others at that time was probably in part due to his desire to try and avoid the politics/emotions that were baggage around the fallout of post-SMiLE BB-ville at that time. He was probably seeking an escape, and was pulled back in by people (family) who knew how to say what was needed to get him to do so. Brian's buttons were pushed, so to speak. How exactly they were pushed, we don't exactly know.

That said, yes I can totally understand and empathize with the idea that Brian’s bandmates were desperate to not have a repeat of Surf City being given away, especially since they needed a Surf City-sized hit in the worst way at the time.

This was also going down in the studio the Beach Boys were all paying for, which likely didn't help...

I don't dispute how it reportedly went down. I'm just using a bit of empathy toward all those involved.

I've been in a billion bands and know exactly how it can feel when bandmates/leaders get tangled up in side projects, and this was with basically no stakes involved (other than emotional ones) in comparison with The Beach Boys.... and I've witnessed some pretty ugly scenes.

Maybe I can related a bit too much.

Didn't either Negron or Hutton also say (in regards to Redwood/Darlin-gate) that if Mike was the big bad guy here, that they didn't blame him and would have done the same thing if they were in his shoes?

Good enough for me to move on.

Maybe the sentiment of Mike/Carl being unhappy about a potential hit being given away was perfectly understandable to them, but that the method and way which it ultimately went down (the act of communicating this displeasure to Brian) was in and of itself very uncool. Just a possibility to consider.

Oh, I'm not saying they weren't "assholes" about it or couldn't have dealt with it better, but considering the precarious situation there were in financially, popularity-wise, and general in-need-of-a-hit-ness, one can be a bit sympathetic for a bit of hurt feelings/panic/anger ..... Sometimes in live such emotions can be perfectly valid.

Didn't either Negron or Hutton also say (in regards to Redwood/Darlin-gate) that if Mike was the big bad guy here, that they didn't blame him and would have done the same thing if they were in his shoes?

Good enough for me to move on.

Actually, I remember somebody on here mentioning that they saw a show from around 1996, and Carl drank throughout the show. It was also mentioned by one of the experts here(possibly AGD?) that the whole issue with Landy and the "autobiography" had taken a huge toll on Carl.

Don't remember that. Was it an audience member or insider? Only ask as how would an audience member know what he was drinking? Heck, he did summer tours for over 35 years in some pretty hot weather at those outdoor gigs. Doesn't mean it was alcohol.

A rock star drinking through an entire rock show? NEVER!!!!

I wonder how many of us drink through this entire board.

Love this show!

Some great moments:

• Dennis at the end of Darlin has to swivel around on this stool away from the drums in order to resist continuing to bash away ...... Love his intro hit!

• During the Do it Again into, Mike's dancing away with such informal abandon and seems to realize this, and it makes him a tad uncomfortable, so he reigns it in and returns to his normal stage moves.

• Al/Bruce in unison doing the falsetto on Sloop.

• Dennis is right in the pocket the whole show. His drumming on Sloop is exceptional. Check out his fill at the end of Little Deuce Coop. It's quite complicated and when he's done, he has this really casual "Yeah, that's right" look on his face

• Bruce wears tiny white shorts. Bobby wears tiny white shorts too, and white socks pulled up to his knees! Hey, it was 1980.

• Carl plays some very beautiful Gibson guitars. Al seemed to generally stick to Fender back then.

• Mike does a Jim Morrison "guitar fellatio" thing to Carl on Catch A Wave. Carl seems pissed. Mike stands up and smiles at Carl and laughs like "just a joke" but his smile fades as Carl scowls and turns the other way.

• Carl and Dennis are rocking hard on School Days. Carl plays a great solo but the cameras strangely stay on Dennis mostly. We only see Carl shredding away in the background.

• Carl messes up twice on Good Timing. First during the intro, but he kinda shrugs it off, then gets pissed when he blows the second line. Hey, it was a new song!

• Mike's voice is great here compared to the Knebworth show.

• Dig the guy in the Nixon mask and prison scrubs nodding creepily at the camera after I Get Around.

• I like how Carl strolls off with a beer when they do their intermission. Mike wanders off with a duffle bag. I wonder what was in it. He goes over to where Jerry Schilling is and talks with some guy who Dennis throws his arm around. Dennis then says something to Mike and the two of them shake hands.

• There's a shot during the Good Vibrations breakdown where Brian is singing and looks really really into it.

• No one seems pissed to me at this show. It was a big gig and they just seemed to be taking it seriously.

• Greatest band ever.

So what are we supposed to be talking about then? Cmon, Pinder... bust out some of your sassy freethinking and show everyone how it's done.

But I'll just end up like Frankenstein! The torches are all lit

You're actually thinking of Frankenstein's Monster, my friend.

I actually wasn't .... Check out the ole Doc in Bride Of Frankenstein.... He's a bloody mess

I really hope they do something special with this album, like including songs, etc on the physical release that won't be up on Spotify.

I hear Lana Del Thomas is a real jerk! Never trust a mullet.

Zooey DeschLandy is even worse, I hear!

I actually came to the Brian Wilson thread to NOT talk about the new Brian Wilson album (IM NOT EXCITED FOR IT BTW GUYS)

I'm just kicking up dirt for nostalgia's sake...... And you ALL know what I'm talking about regarding this board, but I know no one can admit it openly....

I want this album to come out already!!!!! And I am looking forward!

So what are we supposed to be talking about then? Cmon, Pinder... bust out some of your sassy freethinking and show everyone how it's done.

But I'll just end up like Frankenstein! The torches are all lit

Good! (it made no sense anyway) 

yeah...... independent thought: BAD

I rest my case

no one has to agree or care, but you all know what I mean.....

My God, this place is ofificially now the Bloo Board ........

Ann is kicking serious ass these days! She looks fantastic and the current Heart lineup really rocks! The stuff they're doing is pretty damn agressive.

Watching the "My Sweet Lord" vid: am I the only one who wishes they just had Al sing the lead? ..... I agree Brian sounds good (at first) ..... but AL JARDINE is standing right there! One of the best, STILL, one of the best voices in music history!

Naw, Brian owned this. His vocal isn't perfect, but man he went all in.

I'm with you. Brian wasn't 100% on pitch, but I vastly prefer him singing with feeling than 'Robo-Brian'.

I agree that Brian went all in. It's not a criticizm of Brian, but rather, AL is standing right there: let him have a verse ...... You know he would have killed it!

Ann is kicking serious ass these days! She looks fantastic and the current Heart lineup really rocks! The stuff they're doing is pretty damn agressive.

Watching the "My Sweet Lord" vid: am I the only one who wishes they just had Al sing the lead? ..... I agree Brian sounds good (at first) ..... but AL JARDINE is standing right there! One of the best, STILL, one of the best voices in music history!

it's just you

seriously.... listen to it

I HOPE they were all drunk

Is it just me, or does everyone sound drunk on this track?