[very]

Amazing..

It's going to be ripped to shreds on this board.

But of course. Whether it deserves it or not.  

Eh, my bad - it's already being torn apart some eighteen months before anyone here has read so much as a single word.

Exactly.

Speculate on Brian's upcoming album - God forbid you say a single critical word - how dare you speculate when you haven't heard a single note! Then you hear a single note - 8 or 9 seconds to be exact - and speculate after hearing that, no, you can't do that! And then there's the Love And Mercy movie. Want to comment on that? Nope, not until you see it. But, Mike's Book? Go ahead, speculate and criticize away! It's OK. Hypocrisy reigns again.

Brian Wilson's Musical Album - genius composer who's created some of the most beautiful music in existence.
Mike Love's Book - the majority of his interviews are about the same couple points - naming the drug-using Wilson brothers, talking about his lyrics, and Back in the USSR. I don't think anyone here has gone overboard in criticizing the book...the man has said and done a lot of stupid stuff, and its normal to wonder what the book is gonna be like. Does that mean no one wants it to be good? No...

Basically - there are very different points of reference for discussing these two things.

Do you really not see the difference here, and why these two things are treated differently?

There's a strange feeling about Brian Wilson perpetuated by posts like yours that I'm starting to see constantly - sarcasm in response to posters trying to reasonably discuss the new album, and I really don't understand it. If anyone has a good idea why this is happening, I'd like to know. I figured a year ago when the new album was first being discussed that everyone would unanimously be happy, simply for the fact that we're getting more music...but that has not been the case once for the last year. I guess it's just a weird Smiley Smile thing?

"Genius composer" is boring as hell in and of itself. But Brian is fascinating for many reasons beyond that hefty (and cumbersome) tag.... Mike's an interesting guy too.

There's enough room in the world for both guys to get some attention.

Here are three more from me.

The first one might not be so obscure to some around here, but still.

Donny Hathaway - This Christmas (1970)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pj1mVUEHeUE

Johnny Mathis (78 years old and still sounds great!) recorded a cover of "This Christmas" on his NEW Christmas album.

A few more:

Kate Bush - "December Will Be Magic Again"
Smashing Pumpkins - "Christmastime"
Jack Jones - "Some Children See Him"
Simon & Garfunkel - "The Star Carol"
Dan Fogelberg - "Snowfall"
Ferrante & Teicher - "Brazilian Sleigh Bells"

I'm still recovering from watching Kate, um, perform "December Will Be Magic"  on that damn lucky chair, as a kid on her Xmas special.

If you prefer the more experimental, meandering Pink Floyd circa 1968 - 1972, then THE ENDLESS RIVER is the best thing the band has released since WISH YOU WERE HERE. I still feel the Waters dominated concept records are the strongest, but I greatly appreciate that earlier era where everything seemed more relaxed and dreamy. At any rate, this final album is far more graceful than A MOMENTARY LAPSE OF REASON or THE DIVISION BELL and a lovely reminder of the strengths of Gilmour, Wright and Mason.

Damn straight!

This is actually, kinda/sorta the album I always hoped The Floyd would make post Dark Side

Getting back to the original question, then the answer is "no"?

"was the songwriting better without Brian?"

I agree ..... The answer is absolutely: NO.

If he hadn't lived in California, he wouldn't have written about California. His talent and work set him apart from his environment. He was not simply a result of his circumstances. Being as good as he was at his job or the success he achieved cannot be seen as the other half of the coin of a brother who liked surfing. Having an idea to do something good is not the same as doing something good.

But isn't this like taking apart a beautifully complex car and tearing into the engine, pointing at it's innards and saying "it's all about the engine and whoever designed/did the blueprints for the engine"

Most of us don't go to the store, buy random sheet music and fall in love with songs that way ........ Generally, we hear songs on the radio, see a band live, get fed hype, buy records, etc ...... And all that is the product of various sums of parts.

I think we can fairly easily speculate some what-ifs regarding a band who's nearly every single detail has been hammered out in various books, etc over the decades .....

Knowing what we know about Brian as a teenager/young man, I don't think it's ludicrous to wonder that perhaps if he did not have a Chuck Berry obsessed, guitar playing little brother and neighborhood guitar playing friend, or a football teammate bugging him to start a folk band, or a doo-wop obsessed, singing cousin also bugging him to start a band, and an all-time cool guy middle brother to inspire and inform the image of a possible band (and to also be the perfect drummer for said band) that Brian might not have even started a band at all ...... Might he have become a successful songwriter somehow otherwise? Perhaps: even likely ...... But there would have never in a million years been The Beach Boys if none of the above had been a combined factor.

Okay, time to throw my hat in there...

In my honest opinion, Brian is the greatest living songwriter. Period. I'd rather listen to his 'worst' vocals than just about anybody else at their best.  Production-wise, there was none better in his time (can't compare him to any one else who came in after the advent of stereo). That said...to act like he could have been just as big without the rest of the band is ludicrous. It's not taking anything away from Brian to say that, either. It was the perfect blend of harmonies married with music that was leaps and bounds above anything else out there with lyrics that captured the youth and produced by a genius.  It was the perfect combination at the perfect time. Each of the rest of the band could have been the most talented member in any other band. To attempt to diminish the other members is to attempt to diminish Brian's genius...Brian chose them, wrote parts for them, produced them. They learned from the master, and Dennis grew into a musical genius himself (and in a different manner from Brian. Each was a first rate singer as well.

They were all awesome, and Brian was just a bit awesome-r.

Perfectly put, Billy.

All I can add is, I think, anything smacking of diminishing the other Beach Boy's contributions is more of a counter to the whole "Was The Songwriting Better Without Brian?" thing, rather than actual intentions to diminish.

Even myself, as the biggest, most ultimate Mike Love fan in the world, can see how ludicrous the question was in the first place.

To me it is obvious The Beach Boys success spells Brian Wilson and (almost) Brian Wilson only. The Beach Boys would not exist without Brian's 1961 - 1966 period. This is the period the general public knows and cherishes. It contains the biggest hits + Pet Sounds/SMiLE. Besides Brian Dennis was by far the most competent songwriter of the Beach Boys. Carl wrote a few decent tracks. I would not say Al wrote any super good songs (correct me if I am wrong). Mike is not able to write/produce/arrange a song by himself - he needs all the help he can get. Big Sur is his best effort though.

Brian wrote the hits, Brian wrote the legendary albums Pet Sounds and SMiLE. He continued writing gems like 'Til I Die, but his output unfortunately waned post 1967 and so did the popularity of the Beach Boys. Brian's songwriting and the success of the Beach Boys go hand in hand.

I think it can not be any clearer.

You guys act like the other Beach Boys brought nothin to the table that matters toward a band being a functioning band that could achieve massive success as a 1960s pop band.

So, if Brian had been an only child and with no cousin named Mike Love, we surely still have The Beach Boys? Like any guys off the street would have made it happen?

The contributions were not equal, but they were still contributions to the success of the band.

I'd say from 61 to about 65 Brian needed the Beach Boys as much as they needed him.

In many ways that's correct, especially in the touring aspects, but also I'd argue it's inaccurate if one takes into account songs like Don't Talk and Caroline, No.

I'd also say, talking strictly from a studio perspective, that (based on listening to the Don't Talk unused harmonies from the Pet Sounds Sessions) that if Brian, at his 60s vocal peak, recorded the vast majority of the BB vocals himself in that '61-'65 period, doing most harmonies and leads, that the band could still have had a similar level of success. And I say this with all due respect to the other members, whose voices and contributions I love and wouldn't trade for anything.  

I agree, and that's why I said 61 to 65: pre Pet Sounds....

To me it is obvious The Beach Boys success spells Brian Wilson and (almost) Brian Wilson only. The Beach Boys would not exist without Brian's 1961 - 1966 period. This is the period the general public knows and cherishes. It contains the biggest hits + Pet Sounds/SMiLE. Besides Brian Dennis was by far the most competent songwriter of the Beach Boys. Carl wrote a few decent tracks. I would not say Al wrote any super good songs (correct me if I am wrong). Mike is not able to write/produce/arrange a song by himself - he needs all the help he can get. Big Sur is his best effort though.

Brian wrote the hits, Brian wrote the legendary albums Pet Sounds and SMiLE. He continued writing gems like 'Til I Die, but his output unfortunately waned post 1967 and so did the popularity of the Beach Boys. Brian's songwriting and the success of the Beach Boys go hand in hand.

I think it can not be any clearer.

You guys act like the other Beach Boys brought nothin to the table that matters toward a band being a functioning band that could achieve massive success as a 1960s pop band.

So, if Brian had been an only child and with no cousin named Mike Love, we surely still have The Beach Boys? Like any guys off the street would have made it happen?

The contributions were not equal, but they were still contributions to the success of the band.

I'd say from 61 to about 65 Brian needed the Beach Boys as much as they needed him.

To me it is obvious The Beach Boys success spells Brian Wilson and (almost) Brian Wilson only. The Beach Boys would not exist without Brian's 1961 - 1966 period. This is the period the general public knows and cherishes. It contains the biggest hits + Pet Sounds/SMiLE. Besides Brian Dennis was by far the most competent songwriter of the Beach Boys. Carl wrote a few decent tracks. I would not say Al wrote any super good songs (correct me if I am wrong). Mike is not able to write/produce/arrange a song by himself - he needs all the help he can get. Big Sur is his best effort though.

Brian wrote the hits, Brian wrote the legendary albums Pet Sounds and SMiLE. He continued writing gems like 'Til I Die, but his output unfortunately waned post 1967 and so did the popularity of the Beach Boys. Brian's songwriting and the success of the Beach Boys go hand in hand.

I think it can not be any clearer.

You guys act like the other Beach Boys brought nothin to the table that matters toward a band being a functioning band that could achieve massive success as a 1960s pop band.

So, if Brian had been an only child and with no cousin named Mike Love, we surely still have The Beach Boys? Like any guys off the street would have made it happen?

I think this thread proves even the Kokomaoists can get trolled :/

Disney Girls is an all-time classic!

I s'pose we have differing views on what is "all-time classic".

I didn't say better than anything Brian's done, just AS GOOD

I got it, but I wouldn't say that DG is even AS GOOD.

But it's a mere one song vs countless awesome Brian stuff, so hey

Yes, so it goes back to "no harm done".

A song beloved by many and preferably covered by other artists fits my definition of an all-time classic.

You guys act like someone giving props to one little song is somehow a threat to Brian.... No one's going to take away any of his awards because some guy really really likes Disney Girls.

I swear this kind of almost angry idol worship probably freaks Brian out.

[as well as Disney Girls are as good as anything Brian ever did]

Carl and Dennis' songs and POB, as well as Disney Girls are as good as anything Brian ever did ...... But hey, they're all in the same band, so no harm done.

You must be kidding me. But hey, it's just one man's opinion, so no harm done.

Disney Girls is an all-time classic! Brian would be proud to have written it!

I didn't say better than anything Brian's done, just AS GOOD ..... But it's a mere one song vs countless awesome Brian stuff, so hey....

Carl and Dennis' songs and POB, as well as Disney Girls are as good as anything Brian ever did ...... But hey, they're all in the same band, so no harm done.

Guys, maybe he just realized he likes a lot of non-Brian songs .... It's perfctly OK.

With The Beach Boys, there's plenty of material to go around.

I think we've most certainly missed out on some cool Dennis tracks, had he cleaned up (even just a little bit) and kept writing, it's almost doubtless a song or two of his would have made it's way onto the albums.

Devil's advocate question again:

What exactly is the nature of the "The Beach Boys left with the tapes" idea? .... I don't see it mentioned in the quotes in question.

We know the Boys did not rush right into the studio and record their vocals on the song, since we know they finished the song almost a full year later in October 68.

My point is: intense or calm brow beating or not: if Brian agreed, under whatever circumstances, to allow The Beach Boys to do the song, then how was it that they had no right to the tapes for a song Brian written and had produced the backing tracks for? Generally if you're a band working with a Producer on a song that Producer wrote and Produced the tracks for, you do not own either the tracks/tapes or the song... (they were signed to Dunhil records at that point, right? Did Dunhil have any stake in these tapes?) ..... I'm not saying everyone was nice and warm n fuzzy about it, but what was supposed to happen to the tapes if no one else was going to use them? .... At least the Beach Boys didn't rush into the studio and simply lay Carl's lead vocals over Redwood's, and they did attempt to re-record the backing tracks themselves ..... This was a year later than the incident in question. By that time it was probably just another song laying around for potential use, in the busy, frazzled minds of rock stars in a pinch and on a tough schedule..... So, question is: did Mike or Carl or Al actually leave the studio that day in October 67 with the tapes in their hand, and if so, why wait a full year to get around to it with the song?  Or does "The Beach Boys took the tapes" simply mean that they eventually used the backing tracks for their own version of the song? ..... There is a difference there..... The only mention of Carl and Mike taking the tapes comes in-between Danny Hutton quotes in "Catch A Wave" and is the author's words, not a quote ..... I'm not saying it didn't happen that way, but as is, there is room for question.

I'm simply asking these question for a more full understanding of events ..... I love The Beach Boys and dislike being quick to paint anyone in ANY particular light.

Well put Billy.

Yeah, the word "entertaining" was misused and was intended to be part of a elaborate point that I didn't follow through with. My bad on that one.

It's a bit concerning that the reaction to something is a big deal but what prompted that reaction is not discussed..... I honestly don't get it.

PM me it you wish. This sort of thing need not be dragged out in public.

To be frank, if someone had posted

Time To Get Over Yourself should be a tune.

in response to me, I'd react the same way. Also...

And maybe If you weren't so quick to fly off into cussing fits it would be less entertaining.

If I understand your post correctly, you're finding this entertaining ?! Is that why you posted what you did without addressing either of these valid points

To say I'm ignoring the issue of Darlin after I wrote pretty extensively about it earlier is ignorant, that's the kindest word I can use.

Now you have Ray Lawlor posting something specifically about Brian and the song Time To Get Alone, and you totally ignore it. Not a peep from you, not even a question or a call for a clarification or acknowledgement of any kind. How obvious do you want to make yourself and your actions in this discussion? You're doing a grand job of it.

?

I know this is 'entertaining' to you (if that's not what you meant by that, then I apologize) , but you posting this

It is also quite immature to dismiss someone outright and the entirety of their postings down to their basic intelligence because they disagree with you.

is a bit rich considering that's what you've been doing in your responses!

Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but your last several posts have come across as baiting. GhostyTMRS had a VERY valid point with

I was almost waiting for that to happen when it was mentioned in another thread that Carl didn't want to tour Pet Sounds live in the 90's with Brian because he thought Brian would embarrass himself. I thought that was kind of funny because Brian wound up touring Pet Sounds to great acclaim and by no means embarrassed himself or anyone else. Can you imagine what the reaction would've been if Mike had said that? HOLY CRAP! lol

There's a tendency among fans to portray Carl as this Christ-like figure born without sin and waving his hand over the seas and calming them...but hey, the guy was human like everyone else and made some bad judgment calls here and there. His batting average was pretty good regardless. "Time To Get Alone" is another good one. It's sad that TTGA is, according to Ray, still a big issue for Brian because it's easily one of the greatest post-Pet Sounds Beach Boys moments IMO with a lead vocal by Carl that could melt in your mouth. Not having it in their catalog would be like saying the Mona Lisa is too good for the Louvre.

and you responded with

Yeah, and what have we learned from this thread? That The Beach Boys are meanies, especially Mike and Carl, and Brian is an innocent puppy.

Just what any happy Beach Boys fan needs!

From here on out, anyone who defends Carl will be hailed a "Carl Marxist"

What is up with the sarcasm there? Nothing Ghosty posted deserved that response. You completely ignored what he was posting and instead made a snide joke about it, yet you're accusing GF of being immature and dismissing a post outright because you disagree with it. Pot, kettle, black.

For God's sake, the infighting on this board has long passed the point of being ludicrous, but what really bothers me now is that it's no longer debating, but rather turning people's words around and selective reading. And it's not limited to the 'Brian is God, Mike is the devil' side, or vice versa. I seriously wonder how many people here are actually fans of the band that this board was created ostensibly to discuss, or rather just enjoy being dicks to each other. Quite frankly, I'm sick of it.  This place has become as bad as any political forum I'm ever been on, and just as full of delusional hostility.

I was just adding to what Ghosty posted .... Eeek.

I know perfecty well that it's politically correct to just single me out, but please take a look a Guitarfool's responses if you care to know what might motivate a "baiting" response... And, no, I dont find this the least bit entertaining. And some folk don't tend to take well to having cussing fits directed at them... If cussing fits are not looked at as at all uncool, but any less then laudatory responses to them ARE seen as uncool.... well, I don't quite know what to make of that.

And again, these threads are not court depositions. I do not owe Guitarfool or anyone an answer to any particular question that is demanded of me. I have tried to present my views with logical parameters. A good 70% of this board is speculation and it is not fair to accuse someone of being basically worthless when they do not cough up a hard fact to support musings on the emotional state or motivations of these Beach-Type-People.

AAAAAAAARGGGGG!

Once again, all someone has to do is disagree with you and they end up in your crazed kangaroo court.

This is a damn discussion board, not a police report.

And maybe If you weren't so quick to fly off into cussing fits it would be less entertaining. It is also quite immature to dismiss someone outright and the entirety of their postings down to their basic intelligence because they disagree with you.

Yeah, and what have we learned from this thread? That The Beach Boys are meanies, especially Mike and Carl, and Brian is an innocent puppy.

Just what any happy Beach Boys fan needs!

From here on out, anyone who defends Carl will be hailed a "Carl Marxist"

Carl is by far my favorite of the group but he's made some bad decisions just like everyone else on this planet has.

I'm just as bored with the Mike (meanie) and Brian (innocent puppy) debate that every thread turns into, but in this case it's pretty spot on. To go into a studio where Brian is working with a new band, get into a verbal debate in front of the band and leave with the tapes (one of which Brian worked on alone) is a total asshole move. In absolutely no way do the other Beach Boys have any ownership of TTGA and it shows a total lack of respect for Brian as far as I'm concerned.

That is very well put, and all I can add is, none of us were there or are Beach Boys. We should always leave room open for things we do not know.

Yeah, and what have we learned from this thread? That The Beach Boys are meanies, especially Mike and Carl, and Brian is an innocent puppy.

Just what any happy Beach Boys fan needs!

From here on out, anyone who defends Carl will be hailed a "Carl Marxist"

Once again, am I crazy or did Desper go into detail about The Beach Boys re-recording the TTGA backing tracks? I even remember him talking about them taping a piece of sandpaper on Dennis' snare head for him to scrape w his stick.
 

I would have to assume that the attempted re-recording of TTGA (regarded by basically everyone as inferior) has got to have something to do with the entire hurtful to Brian kerfuffle regarding this song.  It would be quite interesting to learn more about why the band tried to re-record it.

I'd be very surprised if that was a wholly independent situation, and not intertwined with the extraction of Brian and the song from the Redwood situation.

Also - since the song became such a painful episode for Brian, could Brian's wishes be a reason why the song was (surprisingly) not released as a single?

We've heard people (I believe Mr. Desper?) say that this tune was tinkered with more than just about any other tune in the band's catalog, and it obviously is a really, really good song, especially for the band at the time. All the more surprising/baffling why it wasn't released as a single. Not that the band hasn't done more than its fair share of baffling choices of what to release/not to release, but the pieces of logical motivation seem to fit together on this.

Very well put, CD.

For some reason this makes me think of Tevor Horn talking about  Yes and Owner Of A Lonely Heart.

He basically begged/forced the band to record the song and Tevor Rabin had his feelings hurt that Horn made him re-write the lyrics and not allow a big booming snare sound. Alan White was pissed that he had to record his drums piecemeal, Jon Anderson was pissed that they didn't want him to re-write the lyrics yet agsin, but he persisted until he wore everyone down and forced in the "eagle in the sky" line. In response, Horn snuck in a rifle blast sound effect in order to symbolicaly "shoot down the eagle"

Point is: BANDS!!!!!

As co-writer of the tune is it insane to imagine Mike just wanted to get to sing on it himself and have his band do it?

It makes sense and isn't insane at all.

What I think is a bit much is IF Mike flew off the handle about it considering it was a rewrite of an old song The Beach Boys hadn't used. It would be a different scenario if Brian and Mike had written Darlin' specifically for The Beach Boys the week prior and then Brian was recording it behind his back with a different band.

It being a damn good song might have something to do with it as well

But Darlin' is the one Hutton singles out in regard to the "problem" in your link and it is the one that showed up on the next album. TTGA doesn't show up for two albums over a year later, what says it was part of the incident?

They took the master tapes. It was key to the incident. The sessions that led to Carl and Mike calling an end to it were for TTGA. The last sessions at Heider's or in general that were done with Redwood were for TTGA. How is it not a part of what happened?

Again, why have you not mentioned TTGA while focusing squarely on Darlin' and the potential reasoning that songwriting or lyric credits were one of the core reasons why all this happened? If TTGA were not a major part of this, why did the master tapes go with Carl and Mike and why were the Redwood sessions for TTGA when it was in its final stages the ones that got called to a halt by the Beach Boys?

I don't know that it was key to the incident, it may have just been collateral damage as far as I know. I am focusing on it because Hutton focuses on Darlin' in your link as the problem for Mike, Mike is a co-author of that song, Redwood was working on it, Hutton says he can see how they wanted it, it ended up on the next BB album, Hutton singles it out. Is there something else from Hutton that does specify TTGA as the, or a, problem for Mike et al?

That's what I was trying to say.... If the Redwood thing is off and then two albums later there's still this beautiful Brian song laying around, tapes or no tapes, why on earth wouldn't The Beach Boys record it?

Once again, am I crazy or did Desper go into detail about The Beach Boys re-recording the TTGA backing tracks? I even remember him talking about them taping a piece of sandpaper on Dennis' snare head for him to scrape w his stick.

This isn't me refusing to heed to Guitarfool, but just an additional point being made and other questions being asked.