No Wind Chimes vocals were erased or are missing.

So we'll hopefully finally get to hear that amazing section that Vosse mentioned..?

Well, I love the fact that I can hear the tubular bells in there!  It's been so long since I've listened to all my SMiLE sessions that I can't recall if I ever even noticed them before.  Especially that ascending line that's played.  Another little hidden gem in SMiLE!

Can't say I would ever think of using it in H&V, but don't let that stop you!

Heh cheers Dan - the tubular bells bit is somthing I added so I'm really happy you like it

Hey Mike, I listened to it, but all I get is some type of edit of Who Ran The Iron Horse.  There's no H&V surrounding it, neither at the front or back.

Hi Dan yeah thats all it is.  What did you make of it..?  I just tried to diffentiate it so it could be in both songs.

In my H&V mix its going after the second Bicycle Rider chorus and before 'boys and girls/my children.'  I can upload a very rough mix of the whole thing tomorrow.

If I could I'd replace the 'bicycle rider' lyrics with the single chorus lyrics - but with the backing track and backing vox from BR.

There's a lot of H&V stuff missing I think - sessions and acetates.

There are reports from the time of multiple finished versions but I'm not sure about that - multiple in progress acetates more likely..?  More complete than what we've heard that is.

Just some odds and ends here after searching through the remains of Smile Shop on the Internet Archive.

First, I found this additional interview with Jack Reilly where he says again, unambiguously that he wrote the new "their song is love have you listened as they play/yadda yadda and the children know the way" lyrics over the fade of Surf's Up, while the reprise of CIFOTM was pure Brian. This was a bit of a sticking point between me and some other people back in the day who insisted both parts were vintage, so I can't help but point out evidence that confirms my position when I find it.

Won't pretend to understand his reasons, but Jack lied. Those additional lyrics were written by Van Dyke Parks in June 1971. They're in Van Dyke's handwriting and I clarified the issue with him directly.

Huh, so theyre vintage in the sense of coming from one of the collaborators but not circa 66 or 67? Either way I personally dont care for them. With what Id like to do with the fade especially (Talking Horns "wailing" part) I think they  sound too busy. The Child lyrics there are great tho.

EDIT: As always, thanks for clarifying i appreciate the truth

Thats interesting - I think the melody for that part fits over the verse of the first go at CIFOTM (might be slightly different chords in one or 2 spots..?) so I guess that means VDP prob never wrote verse lyrics for it in '66..?

I was essentially trying to agree with you that there is no real proof for an Elements Suite that is any more than half finished, if that.  All we have are "Fire," for sure, and "Vege-tables," ...I guess.   One an instrumental, one with lyrics.  Not satisfying musically to me.  But anything else is pure speculation.

Don't forget Brian mentioning the unfinished piano cut for Air.  Also the '66 article that mentions 'Atlantis' by name - a version of which ended up in CCW.

Whispering Winds?

No thats Wind Chimes.  The Holidays coda does work though if people are doing a fan mix.

I agree that other Elements may have been the skit reels etc - those may have been try outs.

I think people wrap themsekves in knots over the track but its not all that mysterious.

Fire - Cow or redo of Cow
Air - unfinished piano cut
Water - variation of 'Atlantis' (Brian referred to the middle 8 of CCW as a Smile section even though it was recorded much later)
Earth - Vegetables but that was later turned into its own song

So even though all that may have been binned it gives a rough idea of what he was doing at one point even though NONE of that may have eventually ended up being used if he'd finished the album.

Four part suite with vocals here and there.

No its literally a logical fallacy to state what I mentioned above - that there were no other Elements because they weren't noted as such.

When I say that I'm not arguing one way or the other or what might have been included - its just an example of people making assumptions and mistaking them for facts..

People use the fact that nothing else was slated or noted as Elements pieces - other than Cow - as proof that nothing else was intended for it.

However thats a logical fallacy - although very likely correct its not concrete proof.

Its the fact that Brian said 'unfinished cut' that makes me think we might have heard it - pure speculation though.

H&V intro uncannily fits the bill but is H&V.

The Brian quote about Air was from an interview in a book - Byron Preiss..?

There's no reason to not take it at face value.  It wasn't all that long later and its not like it was a tiny obscure part of something..

Dan here's what I think Elements may have been at one point:

MOLC - verified and possibly dumped forever (although came back as Woody Woodpecker)
Vegetables - verifeid in booklet (possibly a skit rather than the tune but more likely the tune I think)
piano cut - verified quote from Brian - unfinished - 'cut' means they had done some recording
water chant - not verified but extremely likely and a version ofc resurfaced in CCW

During the 'Smog' skit - obviously all about air - Brian actually says 'The Elements' at one point and I think maybe a couple of snippets of this might have been intended to go somehere like 'you're under arrest' etc

I still think The Elements was a four part suite that was never finished.

We've got a fairly good idea of what might have been included - its been discussed many times - but all those bits may have been thrown out and replaced.

I don't think Brian left it because he couldn't finish it - he went on to Smiley which has some very elaborate work on it.

Hello folks.

Working on a new fan edit of H&V and trying Iron Horse as the middle 8.

I've tried to arrange it so the section could still be used in Cab but also in H&V.

I haven't done much to it really apart from duck out the 2 sections of vocals.

See what you think.  Total fan edit but if anyone thinks its any good let me know.

cheers

https://vocaroo.com/1eUP7LpjAHuS

The 'Child' vocals on the tag fit almost exactly over the verse of CIFOTM - I think there may be a very slight tweak near the end of the verse - a slightly different chord/inversion..?

So the board created so that no one would ever get banned again... just banned me.

They love to dish it out, but they can't take anyone who answers back, apparently.


Love and merci,
Dan Lega

(PS -- Mike, I do think they might be right that the "false starts" in SMiLE's "Wind Chimes" are on purpose.  The false starts made me laugh when I listened to them with that perspective, and I figured that, hey, Brian certainly could have done that on purpose!  But if you can't hear it, I don't blame you.  I couldn't hear it for years, either.)

Hi Dan.  The reason I think they are just actual false starts is that the section was cut out in '93 for official release and has never surfaced again.  Of course there's one track (or is it two) mixed out and that's where the incredible section Vosse was talking about would be.

Why cut it out if its an incredible piece of music..?

And really the section Vosse mentions does not describe what we can hear which is false starts and not a remix of already recorded parts.

[There was a lot of snorting when I dared to suggest that all those 'skits' about Vegetables, wheezing and blowing noises and underwater noises and animal noises might be - might be - connected to the Elements. (Bear in mind Vegetables is noted as 'from the Elements' in the booklet).]

Re that other MB - there are some people with whom I agree. I think the problem is that there are some who are so authoritative that others are scared to express their views for fear of being shot down.  I noticed that after you defended your argument, when there was no real answer they just as you put it 'dug in'. And we've  all heard the one about how when you're in a hole stop digging. Someone gave them a rope by suggesting that the board was big enough to accept more than one opinion. A nice little get out clause!

There is some insufferable behaviour over there.  There's a consensus - not held up by evidence - that there was 'no plan' for Smile and that the track list was just something Brian chucked at Capitol to shut them up and he didn't really mean it.  And if you question that there's a lot of tantrums.  People also don't read posts properly.

There was a lot of snorting when I dared to suggest that all those 'skits' about Vegetables, wheezing and blowing noises and underwater noises and animal noises might be - might be - connected to the Elements.  (Bear in mind Vegetables is noted as 'from the Elements' in the booklet).

I suggested that about the "skits" years ago, and stand by that notion as valid no matter who shoots it down. Why would Brian randomly decide to do these skits and chants about vegetables, air, and water if there wasn't some connection to the elements? What's the only element they didn't chant directly about? Fire! And if you consider a quick direction given by Brian that they all talk like Smokey The Bear, you might be able to connect that one to the chants too. But "fire" had a definite piece of music already in place, complete with sound effects and various instruments' sounds portraying parts of the "fire", such as the drum putting out the fire (heard as the fuzz bass) at the end of the track, again coming directly from Brian's directions to the musicians from the control room on the session tapes.

Anyway, yeah, let's just have a situation where any ideas outside the "narrative" proposed and propped up by whoever or whichever historian thinks they're the final word get mocked or dismissed, and the narrative that Brian did too much LSD and lost focus be the gold standard. Bullshit.

Even when you listen to the chant-skit material, released and unreleased, you hear Brian in full control and directing whoever is participating in the room with him, musicians or associates, and giving them a theme or main idea to riff on. And when he has them breathing in rhythmic variants (air), riffing on an underwater theme (water) plus adding washy reverb sound effects to the skit, and having improv comedy skits and rhythmic chants about vegetables (earth), it's no accident and it didn't happen in a vacuum, and surely didn't happen without a bigger picture in mind.

Don't listen to the bullshit, listen to the source material from Smile instead, and it's all right there.

Yeah completely agree.  And 'Earth' could have been one of the vegetables skits - or actually Vegetables itself ref the booklet.  Saying that WillJC at the other board says the first VT session was logged as IIGS so thats a ponderer too.  Maybe it travelled through that tune too - or thats just a wibbly-wobbly timey wimey error in the '66 logs.

Re that other MB - there are some people with whom I agree. I think the problem is that there are some who are so authoritative that others are scared to express their views for fear of being shot down.  I noticed that after you defended your argument, when there was no real answer they just as you put it 'dug in'. And we've  all heard the one about how when you're in a hole stop digging. Someone gave them a rope by suggesting that the board was big enough to accept more than one opinion. A nice little get out clause!

There is some insufferable behaviour over there.  There's a consensus - not held up by evidence - that there was 'no plan' for Smile and that the track list was just something Brian chucked at Capitol to shut them up and he didn't really mean it.  And if you question that there's a lot of tantrums.  People also don't read posts properly.

There was a lot of snorting when I dared to suggest that all those 'skits' about Vegetables, wheezing and blowing noises and underwater noises and animal noises might be - might be - connected to the Elements.  (Bear in mind Vegetables is noted as 'from the Elements' in the booklet).

But there are also nice people there and some with a lot of knowledge especially about session dates etc.

I got into a few debates last week and very quickly got the lie of the land.

One was about the boot of Wind Chimes - the one with the false start with count-in before the chorus.  A few of the posters over there insist the section is part of the song - it just has some other parts mised out.

Tedesco's got his name on his guitar - what a hombre 

I wish we had a truly definitive list of what was vintage and what was created in '04.  Obviously the DYLW material was vintage but I've always thought the CIFOTM pieces for instance were new.

Simplified mix.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/0b60xquw67ufzyu/bicycle%20rider%20cabinessence%203%20-%2013_09_2022%2C%2007.52.m4a?dl=0

Cheers for listening Can you expand a bit on why it doesn't work for you..?

I think BR and Iron Horse flow together really well.  I've overlaid a few different vocals onto Iron Horse and it might be cleaner without them.  I'll do another bounce with them turned off.

The reason I drop the lead vox in and out out of IH is to differentiate it from Cabinessence so it becomes a repeated theme but changed.

Thanks for making this, it's definitely interesting to hear! Though I must say I think there's a reason this idea didn't seem to get very far.... It sort of almost works? but definitely not quite!

Attempt at middle section of 'Heroes'.  This would come after the first verses and before 'my children' - possibly the softer 'my children' from Smiley.

No pitch bending or trickery at all.  When slotted into the song all this would prob have to be shifted a semitone - H&V is in C sharp isn't it..?

This needs tidying but I'd love any feedback.  Cheers.


https://www.dropbox.com/s/07scp743fjb0v42/bicycle%20rider%20cabinessence%203%20-%2011_09_2022%2C%2011.03.m4a?dl=0

Must have had something - maybe the indian chants..?

Organ waltz was March 1 1967, wasn't it?  And I don't believe any lyrics would have been on it, it was an instrumental transition track (unless wordless vocals were planned like in Fall Breaks).