It was mostly vox that needed doing.  Loads of tracking had been done - pretty much all of it really.  I think it fell over when Brian started second guessing himself - I mean why rework a nicely arranged track like WC..?  It was fine as it was - and notice he went back to it in '04 and not the 93 box set effort.

My theory is he was really into "bisociative" and pictorial composition where each prominent instrument in the major songs was meant to evoke a specific object or place, with the overall arrangement creating an image in the listeners mind. So its not enough that a song like WC sounds good as it was in Pet Sounds, it needs to sound like actual WC. Version 1 kinda does that but Version 2 is so much better in that way.

Just a theory and not saying it wasnt still maybe a misguided working philosophy but its the only explanation i can come up with. The Tobelman site, while mostly fanciful nonsense, makes a good case for how important The Art of Creation was to Brian's MO

Sure but I mean the ABC format of the '93' version - or ABCD if you accept the bit Vosse was talking about.  Its just odd.

Are you referring to the arrangement of pieces as opposed to the arrangement of instruments? Like how the 93 boxset has the quiet verse, loud chorus, tag? (Does Vosse describe a fourth piece? I thought he was just describing the tag with vocals?)

Yes I mean the ordering of the sections - '93' is ABC.

There is a boot of WC with a section between B and C.  Its a lot of false starts of the chorus vox along with a count in.  Some listeners think this is part of the section Vosse was talking about.

It was mostly vox that needed doing.  Loads of tracking had been done - pretty much all of it really.  I think it fell over when Brian started second guessing himself - I mean why rework a nicely arranged track like WC..?  It was fine as it was - and notice he went back to it in '04 and not the 93 box set effort.

My theory is he was really into "bisociative" and pictorial composition where each prominent instrument in the major songs was meant to evoke a specific object or place, with the overall arrangement creating an image in the listeners mind. So its not enough that a song like WC sounds good as it was in Pet Sounds, it needs to sound like actual WC. Version 1 kinda does that but Version 2 is so much better in that way.

Just a theory and not saying it wasnt still maybe a misguided working philosophy but its the only explanation i can come up with. The Tobelman site, while mostly fanciful nonsense, makes a good case for how important The Art of Creation was to Brian's MO

Sure but I mean the ABC format of the '93' version - or ABCD if you accept the bit Vosse was talking about.  Its just odd.

It was mostly vox that needed doing.  Loads of tracking had been done - pretty much all of it really.  I think it fell over when Brian started second guessing himself - I mean why rework a nicely arranged track like WC..?  It was fine as it was - and notice he went back to it in '04 and not the 93 box set effort.

I think its possible to construct nicely flowing versions of each song.  H&V is the biggest victim of the 'everything but the kitchen sink' type fan mixes.  I've never heard one that works.

There's enough material out there if you take into account some missing lead vox.  With A.I.s a fair bit has been filled in though.

I think the 2011 mix is horrible - it sounds like 5 or 6 different songs just smushed together.  I've always thought the verses sound clunky and dreary and underpowered.

Its the only tune where I prefer the Smiley version.  That said I think the ballad and tag sections are genius - some of Brian's best.

Has anyone tried putting the animal noises over Jupiter from The Planets..?

If I say so..?  No its what Brian said and thats what it means.

Calm down friend. If you say so, it is so. Dont take offense.

Fair dos I thought you were being persnickity

I said you can't just dismiss Reum's claim out of hand - not that you can't question it.

No-one mentioning it isn't evidence it never happened.  To be honest I don't either disbelieve or believe it.  Its interesting plus 04 Smile IS 3 movements and one of them is Elemental-ish.

So I'd file it under 'interesting'.

The unfinished piano cut thing is a first person quote from the author from much closer to the time.  Its wild how some people - not you - just dismiss it because it doesn't fit the non-Smile story in their heads.

Fair enough.

As for the Preiss quote i also think its interesting it always starts a dash to find suitable piano fragments we've heard but seemingly no one wants to consider "hey maybe its just a thing he played to himself in the sandbox one night that never got recorded." I know thats less exciting but its equally possible and arguably more likely.

He specifically said a CUT - not finished - cut = recording.

If you say so.

If I say so..?  No its what Brian said and thats what it means.

I said you can't just dismiss Reum's claim out of hand - not that you can't question it.

No-one mentioning it isn't evidence it never happened.  To be honest I don't either disbelieve or believe it.  Its interesting plus 04 Smile IS 3 movements and one of them is Elemental-ish.

So I'd file it under 'interesting'.

The unfinished piano cut thing is a first person quote from the author from much closer to the time.  Its wild how some people - not you - just dismiss it because it doesn't fit the non-Smile story in their heads.

Fair enough.

As for the Preiss quote i also think its interesting it always starts a dash to find suitable piano fragments we've heard but seemingly no one wants to consider "hey maybe its just a thing he played to himself in the sandbox one night that never got recorded." I know thats less exciting but its equally possible and arguably more likely.

He specifically said a CUT - not finished - cut = recording.

I said you can't just dismiss Reum's claim out of hand - not that you can't question it.

No-one mentioning it isn't evidence it never happened.  To be honest I don't either disbelieve or believe it.  Its interesting plus 04 Smile IS 3 movements and one of them is Elemental-ish.

So I'd file it under 'interesting'.

The unfinished piano cut thing is a first person quote from the author from much closer to the time.  Its wild how some people - not you - just dismiss it because it doesn't fit the non-Smile story in their heads.

I don't think Brian telling Reum in '66 there were supposed to be 3 movements can be discounted at all.  He may not have told anyone else.

Its like the people who just dismiss the Air 'unfinshed piano cut' - merely because they don't like it.  Its not good evidence based reasoning.

I think Vegetables was originally noted as IIGS..?  Didn't Will say that..?  If so the track went from IIGS/Elements/its own song.

Its possible the Vegetables-Elements thing from the booklet referred to one of the spoken pieces and VT would have been in the Elements and also a seperate tune but I think that less likley - or very unlikley.

I don't think Elements was a last minute or throwaway thing at all - we know that Cow and VT were both in at one point and would be replaced + unfinished piano CUT.  We've heard all the chants.  We know brian referred to 'Atlantis' as a Smile cut (even though it isn't).

It just doesn't seem all that mysterious to me.  I think TE would have been quirky and not all that phenomenal - it wasn't an unfinished SU or CE - see what I mean..?

No Wind Chimes vocals were erased or are missing.

So we'll hopefully finally get to hear that amazing section that Vosse mentioned..?

Well, I love the fact that I can hear the tubular bells in there!  It's been so long since I've listened to all my SMiLE sessions that I can't recall if I ever even noticed them before.  Especially that ascending line that's played.  Another little hidden gem in SMiLE!

Can't say I would ever think of using it in H&V, but don't let that stop you!

Heh cheers Dan - the tubular bells bit is somthing I added so I'm really happy you like it

Hey Mike, I listened to it, but all I get is some type of edit of Who Ran The Iron Horse.  There's no H&V surrounding it, neither at the front or back.

Hi Dan yeah thats all it is.  What did you make of it..?  I just tried to diffentiate it so it could be in both songs.

In my H&V mix its going after the second Bicycle Rider chorus and before 'boys and girls/my children.'  I can upload a very rough mix of the whole thing tomorrow.

If I could I'd replace the 'bicycle rider' lyrics with the single chorus lyrics - but with the backing track and backing vox from BR.

There's a lot of H&V stuff missing I think - sessions and acetates.

There are reports from the time of multiple finished versions but I'm not sure about that - multiple in progress acetates more likely..?  More complete than what we've heard that is.

Just some odds and ends here after searching through the remains of Smile Shop on the Internet Archive.

First, I found this additional interview with Jack Reilly where he says again, unambiguously that he wrote the new "their song is love have you listened as they play/yadda yadda and the children know the way" lyrics over the fade of Surf's Up, while the reprise of CIFOTM was pure Brian. This was a bit of a sticking point between me and some other people back in the day who insisted both parts were vintage, so I can't help but point out evidence that confirms my position when I find it.

Won't pretend to understand his reasons, but Jack lied. Those additional lyrics were written by Van Dyke Parks in June 1971. They're in Van Dyke's handwriting and I clarified the issue with him directly.

Huh, so theyre vintage in the sense of coming from one of the collaborators but not circa 66 or 67? Either way I personally dont care for them. With what Id like to do with the fade especially (Talking Horns "wailing" part) I think they  sound too busy. The Child lyrics there are great tho.

EDIT: As always, thanks for clarifying i appreciate the truth

Thats interesting - I think the melody for that part fits over the verse of the first go at CIFOTM (might be slightly different chords in one or 2 spots..?) so I guess that means VDP prob never wrote verse lyrics for it in '66..?

I was essentially trying to agree with you that there is no real proof for an Elements Suite that is any more than half finished, if that.  All we have are "Fire," for sure, and "Vege-tables," ...I guess.   One an instrumental, one with lyrics.  Not satisfying musically to me.  But anything else is pure speculation.

Don't forget Brian mentioning the unfinished piano cut for Air.  Also the '66 article that mentions 'Atlantis' by name - a version of which ended up in CCW.

Whispering Winds?

No thats Wind Chimes.  The Holidays coda does work though if people are doing a fan mix.

I agree that other Elements may have been the skit reels etc - those may have been try outs.

I think people wrap themsekves in knots over the track but its not all that mysterious.

Fire - Cow or redo of Cow
Air - unfinished piano cut
Water - variation of 'Atlantis' (Brian referred to the middle 8 of CCW as a Smile section even though it was recorded much later)
Earth - Vegetables but that was later turned into its own song

So even though all that may have been binned it gives a rough idea of what he was doing at one point even though NONE of that may have eventually ended up being used if he'd finished the album.

Four part suite with vocals here and there.

No its literally a logical fallacy to state what I mentioned above - that there were no other Elements because they weren't noted as such.

When I say that I'm not arguing one way or the other or what might have been included - its just an example of people making assumptions and mistaking them for facts..

People use the fact that nothing else was slated or noted as Elements pieces - other than Cow - as proof that nothing else was intended for it.

However thats a logical fallacy - although very likely correct its not concrete proof.

Its the fact that Brian said 'unfinished cut' that makes me think we might have heard it - pure speculation though.

H&V intro uncannily fits the bill but is H&V.

The Brian quote about Air was from an interview in a book - Byron Preiss..?

There's no reason to not take it at face value.  It wasn't all that long later and its not like it was a tiny obscure part of something..

Dan here's what I think Elements may have been at one point:

MOLC - verified and possibly dumped forever (although came back as Woody Woodpecker)
Vegetables - verifeid in booklet (possibly a skit rather than the tune but more likely the tune I think)
piano cut - verified quote from Brian - unfinished - 'cut' means they had done some recording
water chant - not verified but extremely likely and a version ofc resurfaced in CCW

During the 'Smog' skit - obviously all about air - Brian actually says 'The Elements' at one point and I think maybe a couple of snippets of this might have been intended to go somehere like 'you're under arrest' etc

I still think The Elements was a four part suite that was never finished.

We've got a fairly good idea of what might have been included - its been discussed many times - but all those bits may have been thrown out and replaced.

I don't think Brian left it because he couldn't finish it - he went on to Smiley which has some very elaborate work on it.