Julia, I love your enthusiasm!  Regarding "Wonderful" and "I Ran," I have no idea if I'm singing the two songs in the right keys in my head, but I can hear the one flowing into the other very nicely.   We'll probably never know if any of your speculation is correct, unless Van Dyke finally really spills some beans in the autobiography he said he was working on -- which I dearly hope is the case!

I can see why they didn't use it on the documentary -- you can't hear a thing over the crashing waves!

But if it had been recorded in a way that the sounds of the waves weren't so prominent it would have been great!

And... maybe you could bring Peter Jackson in to delete the sounds of the waves!

Are these panels usually taped and made available online?  Or is there a press corps that writes extensively about them?

I hope this shows up readable -- as it's always iffy when copying and pasting things like this into another format.  Here's the link if you want to read it there...  https://www.mixonline.com/events/aes-show-2025-to-feature-brian-wilson-and-the-beach-boys-session

I wonder if Mark will get questions about why he's not doing the Beach Boys' products anymore, and why so many of the latest releases didn't sound as good as the previous releases?


AES Show 2025 to Feature Brian Wilson and the Beach Boys Session
Grammy-winning engineer/producer Mark Linett and acclaimed producer Warren Huart discuss ‘Pet Sounds’ and ‘SMiLE.’

By Mix Staff

Published: 08/28/2025


New York, N.Y. (August 28, 2025)—The Audio Engineering Society has announced a featured session on Brian Wilson and the Beach Boys’ Pet Sounds and SMiLE projects at the AES Show 2025 in Long Beach, Calif.

“Inside the Productions of Brian Wilson: Grammy-winning Engineer/Producer Mark Linett in Conversation with Warren Huart” will take place Friday, October 24, from 2:30 p.m. to 4:00 p.m. PDT. Legendary engineer and producer Mark Linett, a three-time Grammy winner, will join acclaimed producer and Produce Like a Pro host Warren Huart for an intimate exploration of one of the most ambitious recording journeys in popular music history.


Mark Linett
From the lush orchestration of Pet Sounds to the long-mythologized and ultimately completed SMiLE project, Linett has played a central role in preserving and presenting Wilson’s legacy for modern audiences. His work on The Pet Sounds Sessions box set, featuring the album’s first-ever stereo mix, earned a Grammy nomination and set a new standard for archival reissues. He also recorded and mixed Pet Sounds Live and Brian Wilson Presents SMiLE in both stereo and 5.1 surround formats, offering fans immersive experiences of these timeless works.


Warren Huart
The session will offer attendees behind-the-scenes insights into the studio techniques, challenges and creative decisions that shaped Wilson’s most iconic projects. Drawing from a 50-year career, Linett will also discuss his work on celebrated Beach Boys box sets including Good Vibrations: Thirty Years of the Beach Boys, Made in California (1962–2012), Feel Flows: The Sunflower & Surf’s Up Sessions 1969–1971, and Sail on Sailor.

Beyond his collaboration with Wilson, Linett’s extensive credits include projects with Randy Newman, Rickie Lee Jones, Jane’s Addiction, Red Hot Chili Peppers, Los Lobos and Laura Nyro, among others.

Discover more great stories—get a free Mix SmartBrief subscription!
The AES Show 2025 will take place October 22–25, 2025, at the Long Beach Convention & Entertainment Center.

Well, I love the fact that I can hear the tubular bells in there!  It's been so long since I've listened to all my SMiLE sessions that I can't recall if I ever even noticed them before.  Especially that ascending line that's played.  Another little hidden gem in SMiLE!

Can't say I would ever think of using it in H&V, but don't let that stop you!

Hey Mike, I listened to it, but all I get is some type of edit of Who Ran The Iron Horse.  There's no H&V surrounding it, neither at the front or back.

We do have the one Jasper Dailey song, "Teeter Totter Love," on the big SMiLE Sessions box set.

 Maybe Van Dyke didn't think it was professional to ask string players to wear fire helmets

Van Dyke Parks wearing a firehat:


Brian and a mystery engineer or assistant engineer also wearing the hats. Can anyone identify the engineer with the white shirt, tie, and firehat behind Brian?

Hmmmm.....

I thought I had read somewhere where Van Dyke said he thought Brian was not being professional in asking the instrumentalists to wear fire hats.  Or perhaps I'm just thinking that's what he meant when he voiced his displeasure at the Fire session? 

And to my point, I will say Van Dyke doesn't look very happy in that picture!   

Hey, we're all good here!  I think all your observations are well thought out.  I might not agree with everything you say, but there's nothing wrong with that.

Anyway... I will always believe Brian loved Van Dyke's lyrics wholeheartedly.  Why would he give him 50% of the songwriting credits if he didn't?  David Leaf says in his first book that Brian and Van Dyke stayed friends throughout the late 60's and early 70's.  Sounds like two guys who were in admiration of each other.  But, yes, later on during SMiLE Brian may have had doubts about the lyrics, but only in so far as he thought, hey, Mike Love and other naysayers might be right that these lyrics aren't relatable to the general public.  But I still believe Brian loved the lyrics as much as he loved the music he was creating.  He never gave up on the lyrics.  You could say he gave up on the project because he didn't want there to be any compromises to the lyrics (or music), and if Mike Love and the record company and others didn't think this batch of music was the right direction for the Beach Boys, then Brian thought, well, I just won't release it.  

When he finally did get back to SMiLE in 2003 and 2004 he didn't change any of the music and he didn't change any of the lyrics.  And he invited Van Dyke to come back and write new lyrics for it.  Then when he finally did the first live shows he was so ecstatic and felt such a weight off his shoulders.  Sounds to me like someone who truly believed in his and Van Dyke's ambition, and was finally, after 37 years, able to see how much people really enjoyed his teenage symphony to God!

Yeah, there are quotes about Brian "belittling" Van Dyke, but we don't know what that consisted of.  Maybe Van Dyke wanted to work, work, work, and Brian, like he did with Tony Asher, didn't start "working" until late afternoon or evening -- or night?  Maybe Brian started doing more off the wall things, like buying a telescope in the middle of the night.  Maybe Brian started cancelling sessions and wasting money.  Maybe Van Dyke didn't think it was professional to ask string players to wear fire helmets, and starting a small fire in a bucket in a studio may have also taken things too far for him.  I'm sure Van Dyke was utterly disappointed that Brian couldn't stand up to Mike Love and the record company and finish and put out a SMiLE.

Anyway, Julia, and everyone else, keep up the good work!  There have definitely been some interesting insights here.  And, Julia, I APPLAUD your desire to try and piece this whole mish-mash together!  I wish I still had that energy!

I just finished reading David Leaf's original 1978 version of his "MYTH" book, and just wanted to point out the he has people saying in the mid-70's that if they were with Brian, just hanging, like old friends, that they thought Brian didn't seem any different than he did 5 or 10 years earlier.

Also, I watched an interview of Brian from an interview with someone European.  (Dutch?  Swedish?)  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kwmmj7WEHXI

The most heartbreaking part of this interview is Brian constantly calling the voices he hears in his head as the devil talking to him. 

The brain is really amazing.  How it can do this is so strange.  (The brain does lots of other weird things, too.  My Mom heard phantom sounds in her heard, like water running, and loud sounds, etc., after a nasty bout with a drug that did way more bad than the good it was supposed to do.)

[tone]

I was talking only of the "heavy metal" aspect of Fire. Of course VDP was extremely eccentric and experimental in Song Cycle. But not heavy metal. I have a difficult in picturing VDP dismissing a piece simply because it had no lyrics. That would be rather petty. More likely he simply did not like the piece, whatever he said.

I do see what you're saying, I just find it hard to see Parks being offended by the music itself considering what he did on 'Song Cycle'. To make a more direct comparison, the tone of the middle of 'Van Dyke Parks' (the 'Nearer My God To Thee' segment with the Titanic sinking) sounds SO much like 'Fire' - the booming explosions are reminiscent of the drums in 'Fire', and the ship's horn sounds so much like the fuzz bass on 'Fire' (specifically that 'heavy metal' sound). I'm not at all saying they are identical, but the tone, to me, is strikingly similar...as in, if I were to fade 'Fire' into the middle segment of 'VDP's I think it would be a near-perfect fit. Then again, that could be a tongue-in-cheek commentary on the entire Smile debacle haha.

But, VDPs played on 'Cabin Essence' and I don't think he has ever shown a dislike to the sound of that song - a song that I'd say has just as equal a 'heavy metal' sound, specifically the chorus instruments & the fuzz bass on the outro. Idk, he could very well have disliked that sound, but I just find it hard to believe considering the 'weirdness' he put into his own album just months later.

Yes, Van Dyke's quote about not liking Fire because there was no room for vocals makes no sense to me, either.  It seems VERY out of character.  It's a true conundrum.  Maybe Van Dyke will expound upon it in his autobiography?  We can only hope!

MyDrKnowsItKeepsMeCalm said...

>>> We know that Brian was involved in (say) the various 1967-1970 albums even if he was no longer the most public persona of the band. Are there stories of 1967-1970 Brian commanding a room (or more specifically, a Beach Boys recording session) quite like this? <<<


Just listen to the backing tracks of the Friends songs.  I imagine most of them were done with outside musicians.  They have the same master's touch as the earlier recordings in my opinion.

Has Van Dyke Parks ever commented on how he felt about the Smile songs that came out in different forms than he had last heard them via Smiley Smile (or 20/20 and Surf's Up fro that matter)?

There is a quote in David Leaf's new book where he quotes Van Dyke's reaction to hearing Heroes & Villains on the radio for the first time and Van Dyke thinks, that's not how I expected it to sound!  Unfortunately David doesn't give us a follow up question of, "well, what did you expect it to sound like?"

David's SMiLE book does a big curlicue around "Mrs. O'Leary's Cow" and VDP's assessment of how the project took a sudden, strange dark turn with it--starting on p. 64 and continuing into the subsequent chapter entitled "Don't F*** with the Formula."

It seems that VDP felt somewhat ambushed by that session; apparently he was not informed about it beforehand. I'm paraphrasing here, but it seems that Brian took whatever conception of "the Elements" that had been discussed or "pre-prepared" and went to a place with "Mrs. O'Leary's Cow" that no one could have possibly anticipated. It sprang into existence outside the context of what he and VDP had been envisioning, and the nature of the music seemed to obviate the need for lyrics. That seems to have shaken up VDP and seems to have made it even harder for him to defend his lyrics to Mike Love (and possibly some others) when that collision occurred a few weeks later.

(Remember, the "Fire" session was late November '66, and the altercation about lyrics was early-mid December when "Cabinessence" was revisited.)

It's clear that there was some interaction between Brian and VDP about an "Elements" suite but it appears that Brian abruptly and unexpectedly took the idea into unknown territory, which threw several wrenches into the process. VDP suggests that the subsequent tinkering Brian undertook in early '67 made it difficult to maintain a through-line for the project: it's possible that some of the arguments between them in VDP's several short-lived returns centered around that escalating problem.

David Leaf suggests that Brian might have been spooked by "Mrs. O'Leary's Cow" because it encapsulated a growing set of anxieties that were at work within him. He may have been simultaneously enthralled and repulsed by what he created, which would have made him more vulnerable to superstition-oriented phenomena (the purported "rash of fires" that ensued after the session). All of that, however, just magnified the rifts that eventually caused the project to be aborted.

I don't think there's a definitive answer as to what "the Elements" would have been, which leaves the question of what "snapshot" of SMiLE seems to give it the best possible flow as a "symphony" or "oratory" (as some music scholars refer to it). What Brian and VDP (with help from Darian) devised/revised in 2003 is their take--and deserves its place as the official version--but other scenarios and other sequences are clearly possible (and possibly preferable).

That's really interesting. I always thought VDP was sincere and defending the music with the sometimes quotes "you can throw the lyrics out if you don't like them, the words aren't important" as if to say "what's important is the music, Im just trying to help set a scene with my words but ultimately the specifics don't matter." This now makes me wonder if he wasn't being passive aggressive, like "well, as Brian has shown, the lyrics don't even matter anyway." That's a real shame.

Everything lines up perfectly for once though, for this new emergent narrative to make sense. Psychedelic Sounds Nov 4, where the element sections have lyrics albeit not particularly great ones. (And now this opens a new hole, where Id always assumed there was no fire-related chants because Fire was already a blueprint in their mind, if "Cow" was a surprise, why not working fire concept tonight?) Then Fire is recorded on 11/28 and the CE altercation about a week later, 12/6 (feel free to double check me). Now the call from Brian, another surprise, to defend the lyrics is feeling like a pattern of behavior of being sidelined, surprised and belittled from Van's perspective.

I will never believe your latter thought, that Van Dyke was saying his lyrics don't matter because the music was all Brian was interested in now.  I also don't believe the other boards thought that Van Dyke really didn't think much of his lyrics.  I believe he thought his lyrics were great... AND... that Brian thought his lyrics were great, too.  But when you get pushed with your back up against the wall, and you're fighting a "family business" and you're not part of that family, I believe Van Dyke maybe thought he should just bow out gracefully.  If the Boys didn't understand the lyrics, and apparently Brian didn't have the strength to defend the lyrics, either, then Van Dyke bows and makes his leave.  Remember, in David Leaf's new book Van Dyke also says that he felt physically threatened during the SMiLE sessions.  I just think the whole SMiLE dream falls apart once Brian starts getting push back from the Boys and the record company.  He just didn't have the strength to fight them again... or anymore.  And as David Leaf points out in his first book, Brian needs encouragement.  If you don't like what he's doing, he'll second guess himself.  In the beginning, with the Posse, he was getting nothing but encouragement.  Things were going great.  Then the Boys come home.  Perhaps Brian hears from his record company, too.  David Leaf says that Mike Love hated SMiLE.  In those moments SMiLE is almost all but lost.  Brian bides his time, but can't get anyone to change their mind and he eventually locks it away as his own little precious jewel, that he finally let the world see in all its glory in 2004!

And why do you keep saying you can't buy David Leaf's book?  It's been on sale for months.  I just found it on sale at Amazon for about $32.00.  Here's the link...

https://www.amazon.com/s?k=David+leaf+book&crid=3KXNJUPFGY6XB&sprefix=david+leaf+book%2Caps%2C130&ref=nb_sb_noss_1

You can buy David Leaf's first book there, too.  The newer version with the 1985 and 2022 updates tacked on at the end of the book.

Julia asked...  "I would like to know your source for VDP not wanting the elements suite as originally conceived on the album if you don't mind."


Sorry, can't give any specifics, but it seems like I've read or heard in interviews in at least three different places that Van had a problem with "Fire," and/or its session.  I think one was the "buffoonery" quote, and that same instance or another where he says he thought the fire session was nonsense and not professional?  And it seems like there's an instance where he says something like "the Fire track was another 'bag,' that had no place for lyrics, and that's what I was hired to do."  And perhaps in David Leaf's new book there is a quote with the same sentiments? 

I really wish I could be more specific!  It may even been as recently as David Leaf's new book where I first heard Van Dyke say he was not into the "Fire" track because it had no place for lyrics.

And though I essentially said it in my post above, I personally do not think of "Wind Chimes" as the Air Element track.  I was just trying to say that Van Dyke's dislike of instrumentals as Elements tracks helps bolster an argument that perhaps "Wind Chimes" is an Elements Track.

I was essentially trying to agree with you that there is no real proof for an Elements Suite that is any more than half finished, if that.  All we have are "Fire," for sure, and "Vege-tables," ...I guess.   One an instrumental, one with lyrics.  Not satisfying musically to me.  But anything else is pure speculation.

[extremely]

"...Siegal article that Brian abandoned the concept the same day Fire was recorded."

I don't recall that quote, (not surprising,) but that's very interesting to me.  The "Fire" session is the only thing I recall Van Dyke saying multiple times was a wedge, or a sore spot, or something worse(?), between him and Brian.  He has said he didn't like it because it was clearly an instrumental and was not meant to have any words.  It literally blows my mind that Van Dyke was so against it!  Why, is what I can't figure out.  Did he think an orchestral Elements Suite went against the grain of the American History Lesson in pop music that they were originally writing?  Or was he okay with an Elements Suite that included at least "Vegetables," according to Frank Holmes drawing in the booklet that was labeled as such, and wanted the other elements songs to have lyrics, also?  Which makes a stronger case for "Wind Chimes" as part of The Elements.  But then Brian said that Air was going to be a piano piece.  Which makes a stronger case for The Elements being four short lyric-less tunes that would form a suite.  Too many questions!

If Brian abandoned the concept of a short instrumental Elemental Suite the day he recorded "Fire" it must have been because he and Van Dyke didn't see eye-to-eye on it. As Julia said, there's no super-hard proof for an Elemental Suite in either an orchestral form or a more traditional song form.  All we have are conflicting yet tantalizing pieces to a puzzle.  

Oh, and if Brian abandoned an orchestral Elements Suite on the day of the "Fire" session, and the building fire in the area didn't happen until later, and the idea that the buidling fire was caused by the song wasn't suggested until even later, then why was there so much consternation?  I guess even if Brian wasn't planning on releasing "Fire" because he had abandoned it on the same day of the recording session according to Seigel, then just the idea that music could be that powerful as to burn down a building would still be disturbing to someone who bought into the cause-and-effect idea?

It's all so confusing.  There's just so many unanswered questions.  However, Van Dyke may have some answers.  And maybe we'll get lucky and he'll give us some answers in the autobiography he's writing?  (I hope he's busy writing!  I really want to read it!)

But now I wonder if, over the years, Van Dyke has changed his mind about the artistic value of "Fire?"  And if he did, when did he change his mind?  He's clearly an extremely intelligent person, and is very knowledgeable about all types of music, including classical, I presume.  So... he did put lyrics on top of the Water Chant in 2004. I wonder if he thought seriously about lyrics for "Fire," both in '66/'67 and 2003 -- but just couldn't come up with any, or Brian told him that he likes "Fire" the way that it is? "Fire" stayed the same in 2004 except for the addition of the wordless vocals.  (And I wonder whose idea it was to add the wordless vocals to "Fire" in 2003/2004?   Was it Brian, Van Dyke, or Darian who first suggested it?  Darian needs to write a book about SMiLE, too, just like David Leaf did!)

I believe Brian had in mind four short orchestral pieces of music for an Elements Suite.  I also believe he may have had an idea for a suite of songs with lyrics that represented the elements.  He also may have wanted both orchestral and songs with lyrics to be a part of it.  But the idea of a short orchestral suite is the most satisfying to me, artistically.  And "Fall Breaks, Our Prayer, Fire, Water Chant" is extremely satisfying to me as an Elements Suite.  But that's only an opinion I have.  I have no hard proof, as Julia explained.

When Brian was asked who was his favorite collaborator - correct me if I'm wrong - wasn't his answer always or almost always Van Dyke Parks?

Trying to say or suggest Brian did not like Van Dyke's lyrics is revisionist history bordering on complete nonsense, in my opinion. If anyone didn't like Van Dyke's lyrics, it was other members of The Beach Boys. Brian did love Van's lyrics, and said so.

Yes, Brian always said Van Dyke was his favorite collaborator!  He also gave Van Dyke 50% of the writing credits, whereas he always gave everyone else, including Mike Love and Tony Asher, 25%.  (This is a fact I kept mentioning on the other board, and the newbies didn't believe me.  And the old guard who did know never once said, yep, that was true.  Instead they kept their mouths shut and I had to argue that I didn't just make it up, and that the newbies should believe it because if it wasn't true the old guard would have jumped down my throat for spouting lies!)   

I haven't read the whole last page of this thread, but I had to get out these thoughts in my head while they are still there!

I think Julia suggested that at some point Brian may have begun not like Van Dyke's lyrics as much as he seemingly did at first.

I still believe Brian loved those lyrics completely.  And let's not forget that in David Leaf's new book Van Dyke says he felt physically threatened at a point in his time writing lyrics for SMiLE.  That's a pretty strong statement!  No wonder he left!

So I still maintain that Brian loved Van Dyke's lyrics without hesitation.  Just go back and reread Brian's thoughts on what the lyrics to "Surfs Up" mean!  And if you think he's just parroting Van Dyke, well, yeah, you may be right.  But, then again, you might not be!  Quoting from Van Dyke's statement after Brian's death, Van Dyke says something very different about the song.  Van Dyke writes... "We came up with Surf’s Up in one night. We talked about how classical music had died and was being replaced by something else, and there were things to be discovered. I sat there with Brian as we were reinventing the song form."  Then he later writes... "The lyrics are inadvertently about a man who attends a concert and has an epiphany."  SO... does Van Dyke think the song is more about a man going to a classical concert but having an epiphany in seeing that modern pop music is just as creative and compelling as classical music was in its time?  I never thought of this, of course, but I like it!  Perhaps I don't like it better than Brian's description of a seemingly end-of-the-world scenario (that has a happy ending,) but it still resonates!


And the info about "Worms" and "Dada", which I either didn't read, or unfortunately glossed over, about Brian changing "Worms" by taking out the eventual "H&V" chorus and replacing it with "Dada" is AMAZING!  I remember some of my earliest thoughts about why SMiLE disintegrated were that Brian was having trouble because he didn't want to repeat himself.  I don't think he was that far ahead in his thinking yet in having the same musical themes show up in different songs on the same album.  So when the "Worms" chorus went into "H&V", what was he going to do about "Worms?"  If he couldn't repeat himself he's going to try out other musical ideas to fit in as the chorus!  In my head I can hear the two musical concepts meshing together well.  It certainly could have worked.  Now he just needed lyrics, or perhaps, new lyrics, for "Dada" as a part of "Worms."  But, was Van Dyke out of the picture at that time?  Did this switching of chorus in "Worms" come as Brian was putting its original chorus into "H&V?"  This is really a fascinating bit of info!


Love and merci,
Dan Lega


PS -- OKAY, now I did FINISH reading the whole page.  So the swapping of choruses was wrong.  So my original thoughts about Brian not wanting to repeat himself no longer have a bit of evidence to support them.  That's fine.  As I said, it was an early idea and I hadn't thought of it much anymore anyway!  Could be true, and definitely could not be true.

PPS -- Julia, just wanted you to know I agree with a lot of things you've been saying!  AND... I'm also grateful to all the others who have given excellent reasons for their different takes on things!  It's really great to see different sides argued so reasonably!

PPPS -- Mike, I also still like the idea of an Elements Suite that is 4 separate tracks, each about a minute long.  And I did that on my SMiLE mix way back when.  I went in the order of Earth, Air, Fire, Water; using Fall Breaks And Back To Winter, Our Prayer, Mrs. O'Leary's Cow, and Water Chant (from Cool, Cool, Water.)  Sounds GREAT to me!!!  The most controversial bit to SMiLE fans is using "Our Prayer."  But to me it works perfectly.  The air around us stretches far up into the "heavens," and to me its ethereal quality certainly encapsulates the meaning of "air."  But "Our Prayer" is supposed to be the opener, according to Brian, you say.  Well, I can't argue that.  But I can argue that it works great in a 4 minute, 4 movement Elements Suite, and.... you could easily use "Well, You're Welcome" as an opener, can't you?

PPPPS -- I'm going to have to go back and re-read page eleven, it seems!!!

I'm happy for those of you who think "Sloop John B" fits on "Pet Sounds!"  Unfortunately, it never worked for me -- and probably never will.  Sticks like a sore thumb to me.

The below interview with Brian is very interesting.  I get "Murry" vibes from his "gung ho, gotta-do-better-than-them" attitude. 

But Brian also says that what people think of his music really affects him.  You can read it in David Leaf's first book that what other people think of Brian's music really affects him.  And I think it was Bob Hanes who told me a story of Brian at one time playing a song, (perhaps a version of H&V?), to someone not affiliated with the band, and the young guy said he didn't like it, and so Brian scrapped or changed it, even though his "posse" thought it was great!

And, yet, that's the crux of our friends at EH argument, who proclaim that Brian could do anything he wanted to do, and that nobody's opinion could affect him.  They say he scrapped SMiLE because he didn't like the music and the lyrics.  I, on the other hand, have forever proclaimed that Brian has always loved SMiLE, and that it was because the band didn't like it (and perhaps the record company as well) as being the main reason why Brian finally abandoned SMiLE.  David Leaf gets Brian to say that the number one reason (of four reasons) that Brian abandoned SMiLE was because "Mike Love hated it."  Mike Love didn't like "Guess I'm Dumb," too, and so that did not become a Beach Boys track.  I'm rehashing old arguments, of course, but that is my take on why SMiLE was abandoned.  If Brian lost the thread of SMiLE I argue that he lost it because he was torn between somehow making it palatable to Mike Love, and keeping it as he envisioned it.  Which, to me, and probably to Brian, sounds impossible!  So, the other board argues that Brian eventually didn't like SMiLE, yet to me Brian loved SMiLE with all his heart and soul.  That's why he held it back because he didn't want to see it bastardized.  That's why he had so much joy after finally finishing a version of it in 2004, as David Leaf attests to in his new book, and in the documentary.  That's why he brought back Van Dyke to help him finish it.  That's why he didn't change one word of the lyrics.  That's why he gave Van Dyke 50% royalties when everyone else he worked with only got 25%.  Brian never thought, "I don't like the SMiLE music and/or lyrics," but Brian did think, and know, that others didn't like it.  That affected him greatly.

I think SMiLE could have been completed in short order in early 1967 if Brian had total cooperation from the Beach Boys.  Almost all the tracks were done.  Almost all the lyrics were done.  If Van Dyke had stayed/not been pushed out by Mike Love, he could have easily finished the lyrics.  SMiLE probably could have very easily come out as the 12 track album that was proposed.  And it probably would have been separate tracks. 

But, hey, in 2004 we got an even more ambitious, more symphonic, more classically inspired version of SMiLE, with three movements!  An honest to goodness real Rock 'n' Roll Symphony!

And, yeah, Good Vibrations would have almost certainly been a part of the record.  Though I agree, it might not have fit in as well, just like "Sloop John B" doesn't fit on "Pet Sounds" to me.  (There!  I came full circle, just like real writers do!)




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhthfctO3_o

Julia, thank you for your message.  I'm sorry I'm just seeing it now.  When I grew up there was no Internet and no Forums.  I was the only person I knew of, besides my older brother, who loved The Beach Boys the most out of all the bands in the early 70's.  I knew I felt a little out of place because of it, but luckily I don't remember anyone making fun of me because of it.  For you and the others who have been treated so horribly by other Beach Boys "fans," well, I don't know what to say.  It seems you, and the others who speak of the same treatment, have been able to get past it.  I don't think I was following the boards too much when the "Great Schism" occurred.  But from what I've seen of it afterwards it's always been the EH board people who are the most snarky, and the most hypocritical.  They still proclaim their "tolerance," yet whenever I visit I'm always seeing those same folks taking pot shots at others on their board and off their board.  I went there and took pot shots right back at them.  But, no, the board that proclaims all opinions are of value couldn't stand someone fighting back.

Ever since the "Great Schism" I've never seen posts on this board that are mean to other posters, other than posts that point out specifically bad things that were done to them by posters on the other board.  So when we're not discussing that, all the posts I've seen here are polite and meaningful.  Those here have created the type of board the ones who left supposedly "aspired" to.  Yet when they broke away all they did was create a place where the same bad actions that got them banned from this board can take place, apparently!  

I don't follow the boards, except in spurts, but I'm grateful for this board, and all its regular posters!

[appalled!]

Yes, I too read AGD's absolute ROASTING of someone who suggested he would like the remaining Beach Boys to overdub/finish Brian's unreleased material.  I was appalled!

Their holier-than-thou attitude that everyone's opinion is respected is just ridiculous.  They were not nice to Mike, on NUMEROUS occasions!  Whoever the poor bloke was that AGD turned on didn't deserve that in the least!

And of course from what I saw the moderators didn't say anything to AGD about being nice to people!  (Nor ban him, like they did me.)

And that girl who came on this thread and said nasty things about posters here who have been nothing but thoughtful and pleasant as far as I've seen is just completely wacko.

And most people over there probably still think the board doesn't ban people, as I saw a recent poster say!

(BTW, I can go over there and "read only" if I don't try to login.  That's how I've read a few things even though I've been banned.  And I've only gone back after Brian's passing, just to see if there was anything worth reading over there.) 

In the entire time you’ve been here I’ve never seen you post anything that would raise an eyebrow, much less deserve a ban! I can’t even fathom that.


Regardless though , recent events have shown just how insignificant this board vs board stuff is .

Yes, well said.  I really don't like discussing this stuff at this time.  There are other things I wanted to say, but I've been doing my best to hold off on them.  I'm still feeling the loss of Brian.  It's a very sad time.

[appalled!]

Yes, I too read AGD's absolute ROASTING of someone who suggested he would like the remaining Beach Boys to overdub/finish Brian's unreleased material.  I was appalled!

Their holier-than-thou attitude that everyone's opinion is respected is just ridiculous.  They were not nice to Mike, on NUMEROUS occasions!  Whoever the poor bloke was that AGD turned on didn't deserve that in the least!

And of course from what I saw the moderators didn't say anything to AGD about being nice to people!  (Nor ban him, like they did me.)

And that girl who came on this thread and said nasty things about posters here who have been nothing but thoughtful and pleasant as far as I've seen is just completely wacko.

And most people over there probably still think the board doesn't ban people, as I saw a recent poster say!

(BTW, I can go over there and "read only" if I don't try to login.  That's how I've read a few things even though I've been banned.  And I've only gone back after Brian's passing, just to see if there was anything worth reading over there.) 

For a long time I've said "Please Let Me Wonder" was my favorite Beach Boys/Brian Wilson song!  At one point in that video Brian smiles with the most genuine smile I may have ever seen him give!  Priceless!


(And this is hilarious, while I was writing "smile" above, spell check changed it to "SMiLE!"  When did spell check learn to do that!?)

VAN DYKE PARKS on Brian's passing...

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2025/jun/17/his-music-documented-an-america-that-no-longer-exists-brian-wilsons-brilliance-by-key-collaborator-van-dyke-parks



‘His music documented an America that no longer exists’: Brian Wilson’s brilliance, by key collaborator Van Dyke Parks
Wilson bought Parks a Volvo when he’d barely met him – and together they brought sublime poetry to pop. He remembers the making of Smile, Surf’s Up and more

Dave Simpson
As told to Dave Simpson
Tue 17 Jun 2025 09.49 EDT



It was the Beatles’ publicist Derek Taylor – who I met backstage at their first concert at the Hollywood Bowl – who first declared “Brian Wilson is a genius” as part of a [1966] publicity campaign. I knew that word would come back to haunt Brian and it did: from then on he was competing in a world of heightened expectations, but he did that very bravely all his life. He was basically forever competing against a previous version of himself, but as the great American beat poet Lewis MacAdams said: “If it’s not impossible, I’m not interested.” As for lyrics, you can’t beat “I’m a cork on the ocean” [in Til I Die] for a redux of thought from a Beach Boy. I will call that genius and I think the word does apply to Brian.

The things he could do with a piano, bass and a couple of guitars were like him entering a dark room and breathing light and life into it
He had so many gifts. One of them was mutual empowerment. He brought out the best in everyone around him. In the studio, under great tensile strength, the things he could do with a piano, bass, and maybe a couple of guitars were like him entering a dark room and breathing light and life into it. He was a celebratory spirit with a dark coda on his life: the burden of some psychosis. I don’t believe that was caused by drugs. I think it was in his genes, but he had the ability to dig deep. He had a disciplined spiritual force and had sat on church pews and had learned musical lingos, had loved and absorbed everything from barbershop quartets to calypso to composers to Gershwin, was growing up when they coined the expression “Americana” and configured all this into a new kind of pop.


Equally, he was a positive social force while Rome was burning and certainly Vietnam was. People were being hosed down in Selma [Alabama, on civil rights marches] and there was panic and apprehension and assassinations, but against that backdrop we got the tonic of Brian Wilson’s music. I’m glad he didn’t see a state senator shot down to the ground this weekend.

In mid-1960s Laurel Canyon, I was very active and had played on stuff like the Byrds’ Fifth Dimension. David Crosby encouraged me to become a Byrd but I wasn’t strong enough to be that, but they were wonderful people and Roger McGuinn was a great lyricist. I did everything in my power to surround myself with superior talents and really found one in Brian. I can’t remember whether it was David or [Byrds’ producer] Terry Melcher or [talent agent] Loren Schwartz who introduced us, but I went over when they were working on Good Vibrations. I suggested the cello parts with triplets played arco [with a bow] that became part of the song’s signature, like the ruby slippers in The Wizard of Oz. I thought I might get taken on as an arranger or rather a musician trying to become an arranger, but that wasn’t the job Brian had for me at all. Suddenly I was a lyricist.



At that time, I knew nothing about Brian Wilson – I was a Beatles fan – and lyrics weren’t really my background. It’s possible that he’d heard my song High Coin [first recorded in 1965 by Rick Jarrard], which [psychedelic band] the Charlatans had done in San Francisco to very minor impact.

When I rode up to Brian’s poolside mansion in Beverly Hills on a motorcycle I was pulled over by a cop who asked me what I was doing in such a neighborhood. He didn’t believe me so accompanied me to Brian’s front door. When Brian answered it turned out that the cop’s sister went out with Dennis [Wilson]. It was all smoothed over, but Brian asked me what I needed that would draw less attention. At the time, a Volvo was the safest car built. The next day I got a cheque with no conditions for $5,000, to buy myself a Volvo. I hardly knew this man, but sometimes good things happen on trust.

We wrote songs right there in his living room. The first was Heroes and Villains. Brian was the leader and came up with the melody and with it the required number of syllables. I started “I’ve been in this town so long that back in the city / I’ve been taken for lost and gone and unknown for a long long time / Fell in love years ago with an innocent girl from the Spanish and Indian home / home of the heroes and villains …” and never changed a syllable. I envisaged a country and western ballad – a story, kind of. It was a beautiful experience, one of the “eureka” moments of my relationship with Brian Wilson.

We came up with Surf’s Up in one night. We talked about how classical music had died and was being replaced by something else, and there were things to be discovered. I sat there with Brian as we were reinventing the song form. One of the things he did then was record in modular fragments – sections which would then be put together – as opposed to whole songs, a bit like the way people like Robert Altman were making movies.


I don’t know how much Brian consciously was trying to top Pet Sounds [1966] but he wanted out of the box. Placing his piano in a sand-box in his living room wasn’t an example of his craziness. It was both a pop art statement and his fantastic sense of humour. He’d wanted to drop the surfboard and progress so I mischievously suggested the title Surf’s Up. It was naughty … but how could his cousin Mike Love [Beach Boys singer/co-lyricist, who famously wasn’t always receptive to Wilson and Parks’s experimentation] argue with a title like Surf’s Up? I wanted to help Brian have a moment he deserved.


The lyrics were inspired by an artist called Frank Holmes, whose pictures interested me so I tried to adhere to them. “Columnated ruins domino, canvas the town and brush the backdrop / Are you sleeping?” The lyrics are inadvertently about a man who attends a concert and has an epiphany. We did a whole bunch of songs and Frank [who subsequently did the cover art] can testify that I suggested the title Smile for the album.

During the recording sessions Brian dominated the piano. Musicians would come and go, but Carol Kaye [bass] was very important. Elegant and swell, the only female on that set and she played on so much stuff. Dennis [Wilson] was nice to me and Carl [Wilson] knew what Brian was up against so was inclined to promote his brother’s search for freedom, but Brian had to fight to make an album at his own expense and the group felt threatened or diminished, maybe. I walked away. [Wilson pulled Smile, which – although some tracks emerged – became a “legendary lost album”. He withdrew further into drug use.]


A few years later I was in a Warner Brothers meeting about the Beach Boys’ Holland album [1973], which they said was unreleasable without Brian. Mo Ostin [chief executive] said to me: “Can you get Brian?” I went over to his place with my cassette recorder and came up with a few notes, the words “Sail on, sail on sailor” and the title Sail On Sailor. It got him outta bed. We sent the tape to the Beach Boys [who recorded it for Holland]. I take no further credit for the song, which was sweet, desperate and elevating, but it put me in the position of being an effective agitator.


We reunited again for [Parks’s 1995 solo album] Orange Crate Art, which reignited Brian’s recording career. It was my last record for Warners and I was infatuated with the word “orange”, because of its associations with Florida and California. He was sitting in a beach home, looking at a television that wasn’t on, but I so wanted him to sing the word “orange”. He came to the studio and when I got him in front of a microphone he suddenly asked me: “Why aren’t you singing this song?” I said: “Quite frankly Brian, I just don’t like the sound of my own voice,” and quick as a flash he said: “I don’t blame you.” That was Brian: dry as bones. When he became lead vocalist it was different to the 1960s because of whatever had happened to him and he was singing parts that I dictated. It sank without a trace, but it was a step forward – he realised he could get out of the tomb.

Working together again on Brian Wilson Presents Smile [2004, the album as it was originally intended] was more of a long-distance love. I didn’t have the chance to socialise with him at that time, but did some audio intervals, played some parts and so on. I went to the triumphant Royal Festival Hall show [2004] where he performed the Smile songs and my only regret is that my parents weren’t alive to see the joy those songs generated.

Brian and I stayed in touch. My wife Sally and I were close to Brian and both of his wives. Our friendship spanned decades and his various associations and casts of characters. Losing him is so tough and leaves a vacuum, but Brian bloomed where he was planted and his music documented an America that no longer exists. He moved mountains. He changed the language. He treated me kindly when he didn’t need to and when people say his music is astonishing, I agree.

So the board created so that no one would ever get banned again... just banned me.

They love to dish it out, but they can't take anyone who answers back, apparently.


Love and merci,
Dan Lega

So you come over here to boast and whine about it. You got exactly what you were aiming for when you signed up at EH. You wanted to stir the pot. Why even go there seeing you hated the place to begin with. You were asked nicely to lighten up but you "pounded your chest" and laid it on even thicker. No pats on the back from me. "Love and merci" indeed.

Oh. Good luck over here. I see the sister duo is back. Enjoy that!

Interesting perspective.  

Yeah, it does rile me that they believe they have all the FACTS.  I believe the other side of the coin should be presented.  I have FACTS on my side, too.

They said they would never ban anyone.  I even 'snuck' in over there after Brian died to see what was going on, and, lo and behold, saw that someone posted again just recently, "I'm so glad I'm on a board where we can say what we want and no one gets banned."  

And of course no one replied to the poster, saying, "Sorry, we've changed, we do ban people."

They're such hypocrites other there.  As I said, they love to dish it out.  They made fun of me left and right.  And they treated Mike, who posted above, like sh*t!  It's unbelievable what they said to him, not once, but numerous times!  But when I dished it back they couldn't handle it.

So Jodi Q, why did you come over here?  To stir the pot?  If you can do that here, then why can't I do that over there?  And I'd say you're even worse than me, because I got on their case about how they like to ignore facts, (like David Leaf quoting Brian as saying the number one reason he quit SMiLE was because Mike Love hated it,) yet you come over here and throw shade at other women with absolutely no reason at all?!  How are you "better" than us?!

Love and merci, indeed,
Dan Lega


(PS -- Mike, I do think they might be right that the "false starts" in SMiLE's "Wind Chimes" are on purpose.  The false starts made me laugh when I listened to them with that perspective, and I figured that, hey, Brian certainly could have done that on purpose!  But if you can't hear it, I don't blame you.  I couldn't hear it for years, either.)