https://www.latimes.com/entertainment-arts/music/story/2025-09-05/mark-volman-turtles-flo-eddie-happy-together-dies-78

I think part of the reason why both "Kokomo" and "We Built This City" by Jefferson Starship get tagged or meme-d as the "worst song ever" so often is because they're so far removed from what those bands used to be and what they used to represent to their fans. Or people simply don't like the songs. But there's a certain emotional weight to beloved 60's era bands that makes their total shift to 80's pop sonic sensibilities even more egregious to the fans. "This is the same band who did Pet Sounds?" "This is the same band who did Surrealistic Pillow?"...stuff like that. For the record I feel the same personally about Chicago. I can barely listen to anything they did after Terry Kath died, a lot of that because I love those first 3 Chicago albums so much and the Cetera ballads just don't cut it or sound anything like what the band was going for on those early albums.

Al and Mike still don't seem to be getting along. Kind of sad reading Al describe Mike's speech at Brian's memorial service.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vw1a-5-ZM0w

Video just released to Adam's 1.4 million subscribers. Somewhere over certain parts of the world you can probably see a bat signal in the night sky. Watch the comments section. 

I've got my beer and popcorn ready. 

I predicted itd happen now and yall took the bait to prove my point.

So your posts were "bait" and not a genuine attempt to have a discussion?

Why dont yall provide me with the definitive sources on Melinda and then I can be as enlightened in my opinion as you?

Logic would suggest the definitive source would be Melinda herself, but in a previous post you've already said you find her word "a bit sketchy". So that removes her as a possible source to consider. Then I suggested (and factually too) that regarding the L&M movie, Brian was the other primary source since he and Melinda were often the only ones there in the scenes being depicted, but if you have issues with his reliability as a source, does that remove him too?

If you remove Brian and Melinda, whose word you find "sketchy" regarding events that actually happened to her and her husband, who is left?

I reposted the link to the tribute Jean Sievers wrote for Brian, and you seem to have ignored it (or haven't had time to read it). Jean was Brian's manager since the late 90's, working directly and daily for and with Brian, and doing the heavy lifting along with her co-workers to actually make things happen in Brian's career. And she did a phenomenal job...does her word count?

Here's the link again: https://news.pollstar.com/2025/07/23/in-her-own-words-jean-sievers-on-managing-the-late-great-music-genius-brian-wilson/

Then that leaves people who were Brian's and Melinda's personal friends, people who had their personal phone numbers and could call anytime and receive calls too. That's a very short list, but do we discount their word too because they're too close to be unbiased in their observations?

Regarding things like the L&M movie, NPP, BWPS, Smile art, and all of that - There are very large teams and crews in place with each of those projects, including record labels, production and distribution operations, screenwriters, marketing teams, accounting and budget teams, the works. Beyond personal management from people like Jean. "Budget" can be the key term, it's not as if Brian himself could have cut a check and cover all the costs and not have labels and film companies have their own interests and limitations in place. Should those various people be considered a valid source as well?

And maybe after all that, we're left with various people who claim "insider" status, and proceed to spread gossip and rumors to fans online or in fan clubs or whatever. People who may carry personal grudges, or perhaps have a history of putting out gossip and innuendo for whatever reasons they may have, gossip that has often been proven false. Do we weigh or even value the word of people like that over the actual individuals who were the subject of these events and happenings?  

If weighing a personal bias or grudge against someone being talked about factually is a factor, consider how many people in these fan communities have a history of bashing, criticizing, gossiping about, and using ridiculous nicknames for Melinda Wilson like "Missy", "the wifey", "hiswifeandmanagers", "his handlers", and the "me-landy" chestnut, and consider the validity of what they're saying. Does it come from a source of factual information, or rather hearsay and personal grudges?

Food for thought, that's all it is.  I think the classic saying is "consider the source".

This was probably hashed out a zillion years ago, but is there any evidence/indication that:

A) The songs were offered to Sinatra
B) The offer actually made it to him
C) He then turned them down

Yes it was discussed here. Click on the YouTube link I posted before to hear Brian personally talk about the song and Sinatra in 1977. Unfortunately it was before the meeting itself so no follow ups and info on what transpired. But a meeting was definitely planned as Brian specifically mentions it.  And the rest of the thread is pretty interesting too.

Eureeka! I found it! Click on the link, it goes to where Brian talks about writing Still I Dream Of It for Sinatra "about 2 or 3 weeks ago for Frank, personally..."

https://youtu.be/YZAwYF2tLbU?t=468

Thanks to the uploader on YouTube for sharing. Someone grab it before it disappears too, please  

1977 interview, not '76.

My opinion is based on the Wikipedia article and its sources about the Paley sessions as well as the defensive NPP marketing, the way Wendy (or was it Carnie?) called her "M E L ANDY" (damn autocorrect keeps changing this to "Melinda" behind my back, tad suspicious) Mike and others in Brian's life saying she was heavy handed (or words to that effect) and a commentor in the main board discussing the shitty way they treated Frank Holmes. Plus just little scattered anecdotes Ive heard over the years, some from insiders I wont name along with just a general vibe I took away from Love and Mercy that they had to play up her role as the savior to appease Brian's camp and get the movie made.*

*Yes she saved him but the back and forth 60s-80s time lapses kind of hurt the movie in my opinion. It took time away from the far more interesting 60s stuff and the two stories dont come together in a narratively satisfying way, just individually fizzle out. Also, some of the "isnt Melinda amazing?!" moments felt over the top, like Landy throwing a fit in her office and shes all cool like "I think Im ready to sell some cars" as the manager just sat back and did nothing. That scene took me out of the movie and apparently the events of the 80s sequences arebased solely on her word, which I find abit sketchy. Carl's role in helping free Brian is totally omitted which also feels kinda shitty.

People can feel free to disagree or say "if she was overbearing to others it was at Brian's urging", or "we dont know what happened" (which is true) Ive seen it all play out here before a million times. Im not gonna get into a big back and forth about Brian's private life because its pointless on several counts but this is why my read on her is a bit less than the perfect saint shes often portrayed as. Not evil, but a flawed person with an agenda--like almost everyone in the bands story.

Consider the possibility that these "sources" and "insiders" you cite as references that shaped your opinions may be wrong, or spreading false information.

That scene took me out of the movie and apparently the events of the 80s sequences arebased solely on her word, which I find abit sketchy. Carl's role in helping free Brian is totally omitted which also feels kinda shitty.

And based on Brian's word too, unless you see fit to dismiss his memories entirely and call both primary subjects' word "sketchy". Regarding Carl's role, there are people who can speak directly to that subject matter but who probably won't most likely out of respect, all things considered based on what actually happened during that time. As much as you suggest there is an effort to canonize Melinda as "Saint Melinda", there are also circles who have done the same with Carl, creating a "Saint Carl" aura where he could do no wrong. Unfortunately as in most if not all human stories and actions, that's not always the case.

Maybe consider widening your sources of information, digging a little deeper and looking under the surfaces, and hopefully getting closer to the truth apart from self-edited Wikipedia entries and "insiders" who quite simply were not there and can only comment and critique from afar, many layers removed from the primary sources if they're not just telling tall tales out of school. There have been quite a few instances of that.

As for the truth coming out about the Melinda years, I doubt it. Not because I dont think some shady stuff happened but I doubt theres anyone left who could even really tell that story. I think if nothing else Melinda was heavy handed and misguided in her management of Brian's career but its taboo to say for many reasons. I wouldn't accuse her of any worse than that with what we now know.

Like Rab said, it's not taboo to put a topic and opinion out for discussion, but where did you get this information from to form such an opinion, especially using terms like "misguided" and "heavy handed"?

I'd suggest reading or re-reading this article too, if nothing else to balance the firsthand observations of someone who actually managed Brian through all of the events Rab listed above, and someone who was actually doing the work against whatever other sources may have been saying:

https://news.pollstar.com/2025/07/23/in-her-own-words-jean-sievers-on-managing-the-late-great-music-genius-brian-wilson/

 Maybe Van Dyke didn't think it was professional to ask string players to wear fire helmets

Van Dyke Parks wearing a firehat:


Brian and a mystery engineer or assistant engineer also wearing the hats. Can anyone identify the engineer with the white shirt, tie, and firehat behind Brian?

Hmmmm.....

Two important points worth noting that are being missed or not mentioned.

One, where was Van Dyke in a professional sense when he started working with Brian on Smile? Van himself tells the story of driving to Brian's house alone that first meeting on a motorbike, and getting pulled over by the police who would patrol the more "exclusive" neighborhood where Brian lived. The officer escorted Van Dyke to Brian's house to check on his story, and that he belonged there, and had it not been for Brian being who he was, and having a further connection (somehow!) with the officer's family and The Beach Boys, Van Dyke would have been in a real jam. Contrast that status at the time with Brian's, who was without exaggeration a pop star with a plethora of gold records on his wall and disposable income to do or buy whatever he wanted, having worked hard to chart and sell that many hit records and attain such a status by age 24.

The point is it was a collaboration, with all the usual situations involved in two creatives working that closely together to create a work, but one of those two clearly held the stronger hand in the partnership, and had the ultimate veto power too. So if Van Dyke possibly had reservations or even outright objections to some piece of music, it was Brian's project which Van Dyke was being paid to work on as work-for-hire, and it was Brian's name and past history that had the clout and the ears of the world.

Read the Vosse "Fusion" section where he mentions Brian and Van occasionally butting heads and having disagreements about this or that, and he also mentions the times when they were working together and it was a marvel to watch the creativity flow when the two were on a roll. It's the nature of any relationship, the ebbs and flows and pushes and pulls in order to reach a common goal. And having these two inspire each other, push each other to try new things, and also disagree is what happens often when two extremely talented and original thinkers join forces to create.

But in 1966 and early 1967, it was Brian's name that had the clout, not Van Dyke Parks, and consider that maybe - just maybe - Van Dyke needed to be reminded of that at the time. In later years, as I've cited before, Van Dyke never hesitated to credit Brian with giving him that golden ticket to enter a higher status within the music business when he was driving a motorbike in a wealthy LA neighborhood and getting pulled over by police because he didn't belong there. Brian's first order of business was to buy Van a new Volvo. Within months, Van Dyke had his own record label deal to make a solo album with nearly full control over the musical content (almost unheard of for a relative unknown in 1966-67) too.

Note as well the difference between working with the work-for-hire collaborators like Parks, Asher, Christian, Usher, etc had a far different dynamic than working with his family members within the band. That's subject for another topic all together.


Second point - Most people who have worked with Brian up to his final albums have said there is a vast difference between "everyday Brian" and "studio Brian", in focus, behavior, and interactions with others. "Studio Brian" was focused, demanding, very business-like, and able to create musical ideas literally on the spot which no one else would have thought to do. For proof, you'll have to rely on eyewitness accounts from those who were there for the more modern examples, short of any videos that exist from sessions since "studio chatter" and talkback recordings no longer are done as they were in the 60's. For audio proof, go back to any if not all sessions that are available officially and not from the 60's Capitol era (and even the Hite Morgan stuff I guess).

Is there any audio from those 60's sessions where Brian sounds anything less than the guy in control and running the proceedings with confidence? Working with the finest available musicians in LA, there was young Brian Wilson directing them through take after take, eventually getting them to a result that even the seasoned pros like Kessel and Kaye and Tedesco would occasionally snicker at or say it wouldn't work during the process, only to hear the results when it all came together and understand where this kid was coming from and how unique and advanced his ideas on harmony and arrangement could be. 

The audio from those 60's sessions, yes even the infamous Help Me Rhonda tape with a drunk Murry barking at him over the talkback, show a young guy full of ideas, confidence, and the ability to get things done in often stressful situations.

I'd ask how many of you out there have been faced with a situation like that, where you have a roomful of top-notch musicians, cynical ones at that, waiting for direction on what to play and how to play it from *you* on the floor or in a control booth over a talkback mic. It's a daunting situation that needs someone able to rise to the occasion and make often magic things happen in a studio.

Brian, or I'll say "studio Brian", rose to the occasion enough times that we can now hear and study his body of work, created in those studios under those situations.

If there is any doubt about his abilities, mentally or whatever, it didn't go into the studio and affect his ability to make classic and timeless records.

But again that's the point to consider looking at "studio Brian" versus "everyday Brian".

And I'll end that point with an anecdote about my time living in Boston, and spending time on Harvard's campus area and around MIT. Around those areas you'll find a concentration of some brilliant individuals and thinkers, in many fields. But I'll just say it wasn't uncommon to see professors and visiting artists-in-residence riding old beat up bicycles, wearing ratty clothes and blazers with holes in them, mismatched socks and clothing, and generally looking unkempt, while having a mindful of thoughts and theories that the average person could not begin to comprehend. So their "daily life" was lacking in some areas of human behavior and interaction, but their professional lives were running on levels many stages beyond the average human's thoughts and knowledge. As soon as they were in their wheelhouse, in their comfort zone, they were untouchable. But outside of that realm, where they owned the rooms or labs or whatever, society would consider them lacking some of the basic human traits that are considered "normal".

Food for thought.

When Brian was asked who was his favorite collaborator - correct me if I'm wrong - wasn't his answer always or almost always Van Dyke Parks?

Trying to say or suggest Brian did not like Van Dyke's lyrics is revisionist history bordering on complete nonsense, in my opinion. If anyone didn't like Van Dyke's lyrics, it was other members of The Beach Boys. Brian did love Van's lyrics, and said so.

Don - adding to your timeline, I wanted to offer a few additional points and events to consider in your analysis of that time period post-Smile. I'll quote previous posts from here to show either the primary sources or clippings from interviews or various papers.

Consider these events with Brian:
- Brian appearing as a solo performer on "Inside Pop" playing Surf's Up, first aired late April 1967 and repeated on US television that summer
- The birth of his first child Carnie, April 29, 1968.
- His surgery to correct his bad ear, now pegged to sometime in Fall or late '67
- His quotes about the band "nearly breaking up for good" during this time (exact quotes below)
- His hospitalization, as you referenced...has a definite time for this been nailed down and do you have any of the articles mentioning this?
- Dennis considering leaving LA for Hawaii, July 67
- His quotes about dropping out of the production race, seen below, and the reasons why

Just food for thought:

Ok, I was wrong on the 68 date on the ear surgery. There is still one interview with Carl where he mentions being excited for Brian to hear in stereo that I cannot find, but I found these excerpts which I clipped and have the publication dates.

It seems to have been sometime in Fall '67 when Brian had the surgery to try correcting his hearing. What you'll read is kind of discouraging in retrospect because each of them mention the operation being a success. "Them" being Dennis, Murry, and Carl chronologically in these interviews.

NME December '67



Beat Instrumental February '68



Beat Instrumental April '68

Jamake Highwater interview, 1968: We pulled out of that production pace merely because I was about ready to die. You know, I was trying so hard. All of a sudden, I decided not to try anymore. You know, I decided not to try to do such great things, such big musical things.

Interview from 1968: Early 1967, I had planned to make an album entitled SMILE.  I was working with a guy named Van Dyke Parks, who was collaborating with me on some of the tunes, and in the process, we came up with a song called "Surf's Up," and I performed that with just a piano on a documentary show made on rock music.  The song "Surf's Up" that I sang on that documentary never came out on an album, and it was supposed to come out on the SMILE album, and that and a couple of other songs were junked...because...I don't know why...for some reason didn't want to put them on the album.  And the group nearly broke up, actually broke up for good after that.

Relevant quotes to consider from the Don Was documentary:

Brian:
"I had a great big, a great problem with the Beach Boys. And I wanted to do my kind of music and they wanted to do their kind of music. So it was a tug of war, I felt like I was getting pulled to pieces. Like two...inner turmoil that's struggling, with the see-saw, kind of teeter totter kind of thing, you know? Where I was being pulled all around, you know? And I just about, I fell to pieces."

"When I was younger I was a real competitor, then as I got older I said is it worth the bull, the bullshit, you know, to compete like that? And I said, nah, for awhile there I said I just said hey I'm gonna coast, I'm gonna make real nice music, nothing competitive, right?"

Marilyn:
"He had a real hard time with the guys, after Pet Sounds and after Smile. Because he felt guilty that he got all the attention, and he was the one who was called the genius. And, you know, he knew, he felt that the guys really resented that, and I think they did. I think it was very hard for them to understand why is Brian Wilson singled out. But anybody with a brain would know why."

"Well he would slowly just stay in the bedroom and let the guys record in the studio, since the Beach Boys paid for the studio. And it just became more and more that he would just stay in bed, didn't want to go down, and, you know, 'let them do their thing, let them do their thing'. And it was very tough for him because he thought that they all hated him. I think it was like, 'OK you assholes, you know, you wanna...you think you can do as good as me, or whatever? Like, go ahead. So you can do it, you do it. You think it's so easy? You do it.'"

"And I don't think Brian really ever came back. I don't think he ever had the need, I mean...he was just torn down, he really was. They slowly tore him down. I hate to say it, but they did."

I also still agree with 100% of what I wrote on page 11. When doing a historical analysis with the goal of creating at the very least a hypothesis, at most creating a definitive narrative to be entered into a historical record, all sources must be considered and weighed accordingly. And that includes first-person narratives and quotes from the time and events being researched. When it comes to the time period of May-June 1967, expanding a bit to May-October 1967, there are the facts of what happened, speculation into what could have happened, and in these cases audio and published proof of what did happen which anyone can hear for themselves with a little digging. To cherrypick some items over others, or to put personal opinion on the table or even into the record as historical fact to be argued is where a line should be drawn. In the specific cases of the changes in the music and overall direction of the band's music and working methods, it may be a case of simply playing whatever version of 1967 "Smile" you choose next to the released "Smiley Smile" and things like the Hawaii concerts, and let people decide with their ears what was going on when they hear the differences between those recordings.

Regarding BWPS, I've agreed with Rab's comments on this in the past and still do. If both original creators and collaborators were not involved directly in "finishing" the work, it would be a totally different case. But both Brian and Van Dyke were involved, and effectively signed the work as a finished piece. Some may try to (erroneously) peg Darian's involvement as more than what it really was, even though Darian himself described his role in the process as a "musical scribe" for the two original creators. And he had the technology available at the time via a laptop and digital files to make moves in the recorded audio on the fly, placing one snippet in a specific sequence and then immediately be able change it to something else, in effect auditioning different sequences and musical flows within the piece to hear the results immediately. This was technology that didn't exist in 1967, and took literally hours of splicing and cutting magnetic tape out of the old work process to allow immediate changes to be heard and tried. To suggest anything happened beyond Darian's self-described role as a "scribe" for the two creators as a way to delegitimize BWPS and suggest Brian and Van were not the main creators for the BWPS project ignores what actually happened. And when "new" connecting material was added to create a smoother, more symphonic musical flow for the movements, it was done by the same writers who worked on the music in 1966-67...and it became a finished work in movements both on stage and on a recording. I guess it could be called arguing semantics to get into the weeds of discussing or arguing about the legitimacy or status of BWPS, but it's not like people outside of the two composers who started the work in 1966 had a hand in "finishing" it by actually composing music for it which wasn't there originally.

And I will - despite telling Don otherwise just a few minutes ago - rehash one point which I've already beaten into the ground many times through the years but which I think is another crucial one to consider. There is actual audio proof which we can all hear on our own now of where The Beach Boys' "sound" was at during the "Smiley Smile era", i.e. Summer 1967. The Hawaii concerts and the subsequent Heider re-recording sessions feature the band - as a self-contained unit - playing both their hits and their new material in a style that sounds very much like Smiley Smile sounds on record. And spending a relative boatload of money to record the results for a possible future live album. Tell me that's just a coincidence...

5) remains highly speculative, and it's certainly possible that Brian didn't get as explicit about this shifting arrangement as he needed to be (which would explain why and how the Wally Heider/Redwood incident occurred in October 1967). But GF's discovery of Brian's comments to the Honolulu press in August 1967 clearly points to the idea that he was envisioning a less central role in the band to be a likely outcome in the not-too-distant future.

Don - Without restating a lot of points we both have previously discussed here, I want to point to yet another reported news item related to Hawaii in the summer of '67, and that is the report where Dennis Wilson traveled to Hawaii in late July 1967 prior to the concerts and said he was shopping for a house in Hawaii and was considering a move. This was reported in the Hawaii press as I outlined here with the timeline:

While looking up archival articles from this discussion that turned toward the Hawaii shows in August 67: http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,27606.0.html  ,
I found some interesting footnotes from that summer related to Dennis visiting Honolulu in July '67 and shopping for a house there! I thought the timeline was interesting based on surrounding articles and announcements first of the concert being a rumor, then a confirmation of the concert and how it would be recorded for a live album. It's also interesting to think how history may have been different if Dennis had bought property in Hawaii that summer, because not only does it suggest he was looking for a getaway out of LA, but also Manson had just been released from prison a few months ago, and if Dennis was spending more time in Hawaii than LA, they may never have crossed paths in '68.

Most of this comes from Dave Donnelly's "The Teen Beat" music column which appeared in the Honolulu Star-Bulletin. In his Wednesday July 26th '67 column, he wrote:
"All six of the Beach Boys (the sixth being Bruce Johnston) sing on the group's barbershop flavored "Heroes And Villains". Rumor has it that the group may appear in Honolulu before the summer is over. They want to record an 'in person' album here, because the crowds are so responsive and groovy." Then, interestingly, he mentions Bobbie Gentry's "Ode To Billie Joe" single, coincidentally she would appear with the Boys for her debut live performance at the concerts which were just a rumor at this point.

Then in Donnelly's Saturday July 29th '67 column in the Star-Bulletin, he writes this, after reporting Carl's acquittal in a US District Court on his draft evasion charges:
"Brother Dennis Wilson sneaked into Honolulu this week, and announced to pals he wants to live here permanently. If The Beach Boys plan to stick together as a performing group, a move seems unlikely, but don't be surprised at an announcement that the group will do a show here in the near future."

A few days later, Wednesday Aug. 2 '67, Donnelly wrote:
"Beach Boy Dennis Wilson is house hunting in Honolulu. He already has a home in Los Angeles, but would like to have a headquarters here as well. We asked him if he'd just fly back to record and he replied, "Maybe we'll build a recording studio here." Could it be that all the Beach Boys will move here? In the meantime Dennis is looking for a house, "preferably an old one."
Again Donnelly mentions Billie Gentry, how her single sold 500,000 copies in two weeks, and how a Mainland (Hawaii) promoter is interested in bringing her here for a show.

The next day, August 3rd, both the Star-Bulletin (as a regular news story) and the Honolulu Advertiser (in Wayne Harada's 'On The Record' music column) announced the Beach Boys "Summer Spectacular" series of concerts with Paul Revere for the 25th and 26th, not mentioning Gentry's addition to the lineup until the next week. Harada's column mentioned that a live album would be recorded at the shows.

I found it interesting that Dennis flew to Hawaii the week before the concerts were announced, and made his own announcement that he was shopping for a home there! I wonder how much more this series of events extends into Beach Boys history at that time beyond Dennis visiting Hawaii low-key, and whether there were talks within the band of actually moving there too in some capacity. Obviously Dennis spoke to Donnelly, otherwise Donnelly would not have been able to print quotes as he did. Donnelly seemed to have the inside track on the upcoming concerts too, prior to the official announcements, did he get that info from Dennis himself on that visit? And who else went with Dennis on this trip? Management, Capitol reps, etc? It just mentions his "pals".

And it's still fascinating to think how history would have been different if Dennis had indeed bought a house there in '67.

And the entire thread which eventually turned into similar issues as we've discussed concerning this time period can be found here:

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,27692.msg671292.html#msg671292


So it adds yet another layer to these topics: Not only was Brian telling the press in Hawaii what he told them when he was there for the concerts about his future role with The Beach Boys, but also Dennis was in Hawaii weeks before on his own announcing he was looking for a house there, possibly to set up a "headquarters" there, and saying "maybe we'll build a recording studio here." Does that sound like a group that was sure about their future, or does it suggest more was at play and at stake in that Summer of '67 than perhaps many would think was the case, or from the history told by or taken from recording dates and session sheets? At that time, late July and August '67, there was Brian saying he wasn't sure about the future with the Beach Boys, you have Dennis saying he wants to move to Hawaii, and you have Carl having just been acquitted by a district court on draft evasion charges and still facing more issues related to his case about the draft. Not exactly a group on solid footing with the 3 Wilson brothers in those situations.

[Ultimately though we gotta acknowledge that all Brian's partners in this era, creatively and maritally, felt disrespected by him and put off by his irresponsible behavior. Marilyn, Mike, Anderle, VDP ("victimized by [his] buffoonery") and even Asher will admit as much. I think Tony summed him up best, "amazing musician, amateur human bring" (paraphrased). Not trying to sound mean just being honest that even our hero was a shade of gray.]

Yeah I agree Guitarfool. Theres no denying Brian was by far the most individually talented member of either bands operation. Absolutely. I criticized him a lot in my original post but the fact that he did so much for the group and they owed it to him to have faith in his muse is still dead-on accurate. Had Brian not been so sensitive and fragile, anyone else wouldve gone solo or threatened to and that wouldve shut the naysayers up real fast if they lnew what was good for them.

Ultimately though we gotta acknowledge that all Brian's partners in this era, creatively and maritally, felt disrespected by him and put off by his irresponsible behavior. Marilyn, Mike, Anderle, VDP ("victimized by [his] buffoonery") and even Asher will admit as much. I think Tony summed him up best, "amazing musician, amateur human bring" (paraphrased). Not trying to sound mean just being honest that even our hero was a shade of gray.

The lines in bold : Almost everything and everyone is a shade of grey, depending on the variables and the specifics being discussed. Much of reported history can be considered that too, where "the truth lies somewhere in the middle".

However, we don't need to acknowledge something that focuses solely on the negative elements, as is done in the lines above. I'll offer a few counterpoints to what was suggested.

Where would Van Dyke Parks have been if he had never worked with Brian Wilson? Van Dyke himself has said repeatedly that his work with Brian Wilson is what generated enough interest for him to be offered his own record label deal for an album, as well as his entry into a larger and more exclusive part of the music business, rather than being a work-for-hire piano player and arranger. It gave him clout, and he carved out a career thanks in large part to Brian Wilson asking him to work on new music with him in 1966. And that's not opinion, Van himself has said that often.

Where would Tony Asher have been if he never worked with Brian Wilson? Today he is known pretty much by every fan and even the nether regions of the fan base as the guy who collaborated with Brian on Pet Sounds and co-wrote God Only Knows, one of the most highly regarded pop songs of all time at this point. If he had never agreed to work with Brian, he would have probably done some great work in the advertising world...but would anyone in 2025 know his name if not for Brian asking him to write songs with him?

Marilyn was of course his wife, Mike was family. Different sets of parameters there to judge, different experiences. But without Brian, would anyone know her name or even Mike's name if he had not been in The Beach Boys?

David Anderle was a music business guy from the get-go, management, finance, planning, contracts, etc. He was very good at what he did, his resume and work after 1967 is respected and impressive within the music business world. Again, different parameters to judge.

The point is, yes we can cherrypick and repost lines they've spoken about Brian being "irresponsible" and "disrespecting" them. But what do you think the percentage is of those same peoples' comments where they were full of praise and positive comments for Brian and the times they spent with him? 95 to 5? 98 to 2? I don't know, take a guess I suppose.

A suggestion might be to more evenly balance it out by mentioning how the positives far outweighed the negatives in those regards. And if Brian refused to come out of his room to sign a legal document, or disrespected Van Dyke over something or another, or made Tony Asher uncomfortable...look at the results when they're all tallied up. These people owed Brian a lot of gratitude for giving them a golden ticket and holding the door open for them, and I think they realize that and always did much more than the fans.

[The entirety of the next 5-6 months is spent trying to get a single. That's not a sign of a stable and healthy mind, it isn't productive to constantly rework one song rather than 12 at once, and it is not going to produce both a single and an album without some big changes being made.]

But when Brian was told he needed a single, he chose to rework this song as something both commercial and exciting, and that's when it began to consume parts of other songs. First I'm in Great Shape, then Do You Like Worms, then Cabin Essence, then My Only Sunshine... songs became unusable for the next project, as they were physically disassembled, and the focus shifted entirely toward the new single. It didn't help that for the first time for The Beach Boys (this had been the case for other artists, pseudonyms, studio bands, etc), Brian needed TWO new songs. Previously, he'd relied on material from released albums to fill out the B-side, but on a new record label, he couldn't just take something off Pet Sounds, for example. The entirety of the next 5-6 months is spent trying to get a single. That's not a sign of a stable and healthy mind, it isn't productive to constantly rework one song rather than 12 at once, and it is not going to produce both a single and an album without some big changes being made.

There are valid points here, of course. But the last few lines which I put in bold come to a conclusion based solely on opinion, and to me it's one which also ignores completely how Good Vibrations was created and how that became a #1 single.

Trace the arc and the timeline of Good Vibrations and all the related sessions, reworkings, rerecordings, new edits, and even an abandonment by Brian of the song at one point...only to have the final edit be released and hit #1 on the charts. How long did it take that song to go from its initial writing and that initial "take 1" of the song until Brian had the edit mixed which was the one that we all know?

Was that too not a sign of a stable and healthy mind, or did the success of Good Vibrations validate his working methods which got that song to the finish line?

While I agree that Heroes overall became a bit of an anchor weighing the ship down at times, another point lost in the post above was the intended timeline of when the follow-up single to Good Vibrations was planned to be released. Good Vibrations was still hitting the Top 40 singles surveys across the country (USA) well into January 1967. Why would they want to piggyback another single that soon after a smash single release which was still on the charts? Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the Chuck Britz "single mix" of Heroes with Cantina made February 10 1967? That would line up with what standard practice of releasing a follow up would suggest be done: Release it as Good Vibrations finally slipped off the charts and station playlists, in other words after it had run its course. Then the new one is ready to launch.

However, apart from Brian trying to get a B-side for the single, what also happened in February '67? The lawsuit against Capitol, effectively either ending or putting a dead stop to the Beach Boys' relationship with that label, either until it got sorted out or as a final separation. Now factor that into the mix of situations surrounding the whole thing, and no one knew when or how the lawsuit would be resolved, with the "when" being the more important element. What would the band even release if they were in the middle of a lawsuit with their label where potentially they'd have a single ready but no label to issue that single and promote it, and no setup of their own yet with the proper channels and relationships to deal with marketing and distributing anything they planned to put out?

So with all this going on, the suggestion that all of the activity around "Heroes" and "Vegetables" and trying to get a workable single ready to go (mind you, temporarily without an actual label for it to go anywhere), we're supposed to believe that all of this was due to an unstable and unhealthy mind, rather than a literal shitstorm of other factors swirling around at the exact time Brian was supposed to have had a single ready? And also, should we ignore how long it took within Brian's working process the year before to get Good Vibrations from the initial session to the final released version that was still charting almost up to February in some US radio markets? That's where I'd counter those opinions and that narrative rather strongly. And we didn't even mention Carl's legal issues, the search for a new house and studio plans, etc. There is too much at play to narrow it down to the old "unstable and unhealthy mind of Brian" conclusion.

 

Your last paragraph in particular really rings true, and I was thinking the same as I read David Leaf's book. "He needed a McCartney, a George Martin or a Brian Epstein like figure he perceived as his equal or even superior to set him straight once in awhile, without being an overbearing family-member like Murry and Mike." Seems like he had those supportive figures in e.g. 1999-2022 in a way that he didn't in 1966-7. That's why in his later years he was able to tour consistently and get so many finished projects out the door.

And right there is perhaps the ultimate burden of being the person in charge who could do things that no one else could do, and also be charged with keeping the "family business" afloat and successful. Yes there is some hyperbole attached to these following notions, but the music Brian was creating - especially from the years 1963 to 1966 - was providing a group of family, friends, and associates a great income and lifestyle that few could have achieved or afforded had it not been for that music.

And it had to sting personally when those same people would pull up in their expensive cars, wearing expensive clothes, and soon to return to their expensive houses with all the trappings of 1960's SoCal wealth before they turned 24 years of age, questioning or even challenging the music which got them to that status in the first place.

Important to note that Brian was doing all of this, i.e. writing, arranging, producing, and performing on those hit records during those watershed 3-4 years while in direct competition with McCartney, Martin, Epstein, and the whole of both the Beatles-led British Invasion and the "folk rock" movement. George Martin is on the record quite a few times all but marveling at the fact that Brian was doing the bulk of the heavy lifting on this music as a one-man operation, while Martin himself was a cog in a multi-spoke wheel that was making The Beatles' music what it was.

So while it would have been nice for Brian to have had such a figure to share the burden and exert such influence in the 60's, he simply did not, and I cannot think of anyone in the band's universe who would have fit that role at that time. And if there had been, would the timeline have led to Good Vibrations being a #1 hit going into early 1967? What Brian probably needed more was validation and appreciation from those around him, and the resultant boost of confidence that he needed for his music up to his final years. It's good he finally got that in the last chapters of his life.

Re: Don Malcom's excellent and insightful thoughts - Here we have the conundrum of what many describe as an album that is perfect as-is and speculation about what could have made it even better. The album has existed since 1966 with a sequence that all devoted fans know by heart, and which has a great flow from side to side both musically and lyrically, yet those same devoted fans know about Sloop and how it was a single that the label wanted on the album perhaps against Brian's own wishes and plans. But I don't think suggesting another track would have been a better fit serves much of a purpose other than for expressing opinions any more than someone suggesting the Sistine Chapel art would have been better if a 2-foot square panel on that work had been changed to include something other than what has been there for centuries.

I think - and Brian has said something similar to this as well - that the focus was on the sounds, via the production, arrangement, and overall texture of these songs as the point of cohesion of this album project. The lyrics do follow a definite arc and storyline if you follow the lyrical narrative through the track sequencing, but ultimately was that planned in advance or did it just happen to fall into place as these songs were being developed?

I think the real glue that holds it together is in fact the production and arranging, and the overall "aura" that the production techniques created. The fact the lyrics of these songs somehow congealed and fell into place in order to create a sequential narrative could be one of the greatest happy accidents in modern pop music, not the least point of which is that they were able to sequence that storyline and develop the narrative while also having two of the album's singles appearing as Side 1 track 1 and side 2 track 1...standard practice of the day for labels sequencing albums.

And as a further point to consider, take a look at "I'm Waiting For The Day". Here's a song that was written by Brian in early 1964, when the Beatles were the hottest thing in music and ruling the charts, and Beach Boys album covers still showed images of cars and the beach. Yet, does that track sound like it was written in early 1964 as it appears on Pet Sounds? Absolutely not, and as much as the lyrical content fits well into the story arc and sequence of the album, it's the production and arranging Brian used on the song that makes it fit, and erases any thoughts about what a song Brian wrote in early 1964 would sound like versus something he wrote specifically for Pet Sounds. That's where the music, and the musical headspace Brian was in during this time in late 65-early 66, makes these songs "fit" into the bigger picture of a cohesive album. I think more than the lyrics, both Guess I'm Dumb and Let Him Run Wild as the two cited examples just don't carry that same sonic texture and weight, and therefore no matter what the lyrics say or suggest, they existed as separate productions designed for other projects when Brian was in a different headspace in terms of creating an overall "sound" for a project.

Having said that...where's the love for "Trombone Dixie"? Since that first Pet Sounds reissue that included Trombone Dixie as a bonus track, it's hard not to want to hear that as part of the album experience, at least for me. I just listened to it this morning, and it's a terrific track. Whether it was a throwaway track or Brian just playing around with the musicians or something more that never developed, it works so well as an instrumental, yet I think perhaps it could have been intended for lyrics at some point because it does follow something of a pop song form, whereas the "released" PS instrumentals really do not. Would Trombone Dixie as it exists in the state we all know have fit on Pet Sounds? I'd say yes, again more due to the overall sound and production than anything else. But again, I'm not going to say that little swatch of the Sistine Chapel would have been better serving the overall work if there was something other than what has existed and celebrated as the finished work.

The Beach Boys, “Please Let Me Wonder”

This reminds me that Brian and band played Please Let Me Wonder when I saw them in 2015, and it was *spectacular.* It's one of my favorite deeper cuts from that mid-60s era, and it was perfect for Brian's later/mature voice. Every word rung with emotion. I'm sure there are similar clips on YouTube if you dig for them.

I agree, that song always resonated with me and has been a favorite going back to when my dad got an 8-track cartridge of "Best Of Vol. 2" and I used to play it all the time as a kid. And it resonated with Brian too, I think he was very proud of what he accomplished with that song in particular and how it turned out and enjoyed playing it for the fans.

And that's why I think this clip at the link I'm posting is so damn special, and one of my favorite Brian moments of all time. I was not at this show, but someone thankfully captured it aiming their camera at the video screen to get the close-ups of Brian singing it, and the texture that the lo-fi video creates visually makes it even more of an experience. Besides the band simply nailing it that night, watch as Brian "conducts" the band during that glorious instrumental break, and you can tell how much he's digging hearing them play it and hearing that arrangement come together. And...(for those who get the reference here)...that instrumental break is PERFECT as-is, one of the best things he ever wrote and arranged, and it absolutely DID NOT need lyrics added to it decades later to make it 25% better.

But the most sublime moment in that performance is at the very end, please watch this until the last note! Brian for whatever reason that night - maybe he was just inspired in that moment, maybe with the 50th tour coming to a close he wanted to do something extra - well, he rears back at the end and lets go with a high falsetto note that sounds like 1964 Brian hitting that note. It's amazing for fans who thought that particular voice of Brian's, one of the best and most identifiable sounds in the last 75 years of popular music, would not be heard again. But there it is. And the whole thing came full circle for me with this short clip when it appeared.

Please Let Me Wonder, live from the 50th anniversary tour, September 27, 2012 at Royal Albert Hall. Enjoy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsB3s9xDzRI

I just noticed a bittersweet entry on the board, under the "Upcoming Calendar", "Upcoming Birthdays" section just under the messages: The member "BrianWilson2015" and the number (83). With that birthday coming up, it's sad that Brian passed so close to his 83rd birthday, yet joyous in a way that he not only lived to the age of 82 when others since the 70's had counted him out and predicted he wouldn't make it to 40, but also how fortunate we all were as his fans to have been the recipients of so much great new music and live concert experiences when he saw his rebirth as both a regular recording artists and a live performer for all those years.

So if you click on that "BrianWilson2015" member name, you can access his post history here, and read his answers to the Q&A he participated in here back in 2015, which is still one of the all-time highlights. And for the naysayers...if they're still lingering out there...that was 100% Brian answering those questions that day on this board. We'll never forget it. Thank you Brian.

Going between being totally numb and tearing up when I hear a certain song today and a few outright emotional collapses, I was thinking about the concept of spiritual energy and how collective thoughts and emotions can transmit feelings universally to whomever is receptive to them no matter where they are..."good vibrations" to borrow a phrase...

And it occurred to me that as long as he was alive, all of that positive and healing energy he sent into the world through his music would be reciprocated within that mysterious network and return to him. Again to borrow a phrase, "the smile you send out returns to you". And for all of those smiles this man inspired with his music, and all of the positive feelings he transmitted throughout his life through that music, it created a network of sorts that cycled all of this around and around in circular form, and whenever someone like me or you or anyone got that rush of positivity and joy that Brian's music uniquely created, it would radiate out and around and get back to him in some form.

And now that he has left us in the physical sense, it feels different, yet it might even make that circular transmission of positive energy and joy even stronger, every time we listen to one of those transcendent songs he created and those feelings reach someone else, that energy continues to grow.

And I guess my point is, share the music with anyone you can, and share the feelings with them that were personal to you and which made your own experience with his music special. It's up to us to pass on to others now and in the future just how special, uplifting, and healing this man's music was and is and can be. Then that cycle will continue for generations, and what Brian ultimately wanted to do for others through his music will continue. 

Thank you Brian. We all love you and thank you for being our best friend through your music when we needed it.

You and your music will never be forgotten and will continue to inspire for generations to come.

Bless you and thank you.

[There was a lot of snorting when I dared to suggest that all those 'skits' about Vegetables, wheezing and blowing noises and underwater noises and animal noises might be - might be - connected to the Elements. (Bear in mind Vegetables is noted as 'from the Elements' in the booklet).]

Re that other MB - there are some people with whom I agree. I think the problem is that there are some who are so authoritative that others are scared to express their views for fear of being shot down.  I noticed that after you defended your argument, when there was no real answer they just as you put it 'dug in'. And we've  all heard the one about how when you're in a hole stop digging. Someone gave them a rope by suggesting that the board was big enough to accept more than one opinion. A nice little get out clause!

There is some insufferable behaviour over there.  There's a consensus - not held up by evidence - that there was 'no plan' for Smile and that the track list was just something Brian chucked at Capitol to shut them up and he didn't really mean it.  And if you question that there's a lot of tantrums.  People also don't read posts properly.

There was a lot of snorting when I dared to suggest that all those 'skits' about Vegetables, wheezing and blowing noises and underwater noises and animal noises might be - might be - connected to the Elements.  (Bear in mind Vegetables is noted as 'from the Elements' in the booklet).

I suggested that about the "skits" years ago, and stand by that notion as valid no matter who shoots it down. Why would Brian randomly decide to do these skits and chants about vegetables, air, and water if there wasn't some connection to the elements? What's the only element they didn't chant directly about? Fire! And if you consider a quick direction given by Brian that they all talk like Smokey The Bear, you might be able to connect that one to the chants too. But "fire" had a definite piece of music already in place, complete with sound effects and various instruments' sounds portraying parts of the "fire", such as the drum putting out the fire (heard as the fuzz bass) at the end of the track, again coming directly from Brian's directions to the musicians from the control room on the session tapes.

Anyway, yeah, let's just have a situation where any ideas outside the "narrative" proposed and propped up by whoever or whichever historian thinks they're the final word get mocked or dismissed, and the narrative that Brian did too much LSD and lost focus be the gold standard. Bullshit.

Even when you listen to the chant-skit material, released and unreleased, you hear Brian in full control and directing whoever is participating in the room with him, musicians or associates, and giving them a theme or main idea to riff on. And when he has them breathing in rhythmic variants (air), riffing on an underwater theme (water) plus adding washy reverb sound effects to the skit, and having improv comedy skits and rhythmic chants about vegetables (earth), it's no accident and it didn't happen in a vacuum, and surely didn't happen without a bigger picture in mind.

Don't listen to the bullshit, listen to the source material from Smile instead, and it's all right there.