Personally, I don't really hear these elements much (a little here and there).

And I'd like to add one more -- the one that really seems to be missing: SOUND BLISS.

Yeah it's true on some of the tracks, the BW elements are somewhat lacking, but listen to From There To Back Again. Total SOUND BLISS. All the way through. It's one giant bliss out track. Easily the most beautiful BW tune he's done in an absolute age.

Can anyone here tell me what a Brian Wilson production is supposed to sound like?

Cause when you listen to every album he's been associated with, they have all been different to the previous one.

hallmarks of typical BW productions (minus the obvious vocal arrangement elements) --

* lack of cymbals (especially hi-hats)

* sparse and/or 'orchestral' drum patterns

* unusual use of percussion

* unique tags / fades

* fuzz / sax / bass harmonica / moog -type baritone sounds

* ethereal string / keyboard / other instrument (flutes w/ vibes) type 'pads'

* tape delay

* boogie-woogie-type piano rhythms

* surprising/unexpected twists and turns

* surprising/unexpected rumination on the same pattern(s)

* juxtaposition of the dumb and the brilliant

But would you disagree if i said that most of the above are on the new album. Maybe some more than others, and maybe more so on certain songs. But yes they are there.

(where is the boogie woogie though? i hear no boogie woogie on it)

Can anyone here tell me what a Brian Wilson production is supposed to sound like?

Cause when you listen to every album he's been associated with, they have all been different to the previous one.

They have, but there have been some features that have been constant in all of them. He tends to use the drums in interesting ways -- very rarely after about 1964 or so do you get him using a conventional drum kit playing standard patterns. In particular there's *far* less use of cymbal and hi-hat in drum parts on records Brian's produced than is normal.

He also has a fondness for two particular bass sounds. One is a trebly, hard sound, which he uses when he's got a prominent, melodic bass line on ballads (think much of Pet Sounds but also stuff like Everything I Need), while the other is a 'farting' sound, often played by an instrument other than a bass guitar but in the bass register (think the sax on the Honeys records, the bass harmonica on Friends or much of the Getting In Over My Head album, the moog on Love You).

Other things he does a lot might fall into the categories of songwriting or arrangement as much as production, but include things like having a tag which has completely new musical material, having multiple lead vocalists for songs, and having vocal arrangements that consist of very freely-moving lines at the top and bottom, with three-part block harmony moving in parallel in the middle.

These things have been in Brian's productions for pretty much all of his career. Some of them are evident on the songs from the new album that I've heard, others aren't.

However, there's *also* been a relatively consistent sonic ambience (for want of a better term) on most of Brian's solo recordings, but how much of that is him and how much is Mark Linnet is open to question, though the demos recorded with Andy Paley and Scott Bennett have something of the same quality. That sonic ambience isn't present on this album. Which is to be expected -- Brian's working with different people now.

Incidentally, according to Wikipedia, Thomas' official title is 'recording supervisor', which makes sense.

Yeah i totally agree.

And strangely i do hear most of these things on this new album. Granted the bass lines seem less fat, but listen to FTTBA and you hear that twangy trebly bass.

Other common Brianisms are the percussive use of piano or keyboard either in quarter notes, eighth notes or triplet. He very rarely has frilly keyboard parts. That has always been there. And again thats all over this new record - Isn't It Time for example.

The thing with all producers is that they all have these little tools and devices that they always return to. But aesthetically their records will change over the years. There is no surprise for me that this new Beach Boys album sounds the way it does. But i would argue forever that this is as much a Brian Wilson produced record as Love You was.

Can anyone here tell me what a Brian Wilson production is supposed to sound like?

Cause when you listen to every album he's been associated with, they have all been different to the previous one.

I don't know . . . I think the solo Christmas album, the Gershwin album, and the Disney album all sound very similar . . .  to what I've heard from the Beach Boys new album.

Yeah (i was thinking more of including the BB's albums) but even those solo albums have their own sound to them.

What i was getting at, was what things identify a Brian Wilson production? Think of every record that bears the legend "Produced By Brian Wilson". What makes those uniquely Brian Wilson productions?

Can anyone here tell me what a Brian Wilson production is supposed to sound like?

Cause when you listen to every album he's been associated with, they have all been different to the previous one.

The frustrating thing is that they continue to sit on a shelf somewhere. I was listening to them earlier and there are easily 12 fantastic songs, that could be presented as an album. You could even take off GIOMH, Saturday Morning and Soul Searchin and still have a good album. And to think that there may be other Wilson / Thomas tracks, a couple of Wilson / Asher tracks as well, and you could have a real decent release and overvew of Brian Wilson in the 90's. Though the chances of such a release are probably pretty remote unfortunately. So back to dream world..........

Oh and i totally forgot about This Could Be The Night. That is quite possibily the best track of the whole lot - just the way it sounds and pounds along. Brian is totally into it. I can listen to that song over and over again, easy. Never loses it's brilliance. And that got released, albeit on a low budget comp that probably 10 people in the world bought.

To be honest Brian Wilsons stock was pretty low in the 90's so i don't think it's too hard to imagine a time back then where your average middle to large record company wouldn't touch him unless he came up with something pretty special that also sounded like it would sell. Easy for us to think looking back (in our ever increasing retro world) that it would have been a great hit - that Soul Searchin' would have been a no. 1 smash in 37 countries. But i guess back then those Paley tapes sounded pretty darn weird. And back in the 90's when corporate rock and pop ruled the world they were totally out of touch. By about 30 years. So i have no trouble in believing that they probably couldn't even give them away (actually they gave Soul Searchin to Solomon Burke who gave the song a great go and probably did it better than Wilson did).

I believe the whole Wilson / Paley songs should be treated as a true 50/50 collaboration both in songwriting and producing. There are quite obviously some Brian moments and also some quite obvious Paley bits, and a whole lot somewhere in the middle. But there is nothing wrong with that. Those songs only exist and are as good as they are because Brian was involved in them. His influence and personality are all over them, whether he actually wrote them or not.

Once again - very interesting. Strange as well, because from hearing the clips of the new album songs, i prefer most of them to any on Imagination, but i can see how maybe they woudn't fit. The new ones do actually feel more like Beach Boy songs - like they need the group singing.

Also interesting that at least 2 times (the 1st with the Paley material) in the mid to late nineties Brian was thinking about doing a Beach Boys album. But for whatever reason it never happened and its (in hindsight now quite bizarre) taken another 12 years or so for it to be considered again.

..... a version of "Surf's Up" with Joe Thomas co-producing.

The mind boggles.

Wendy on the first section, Brian on the second.

Nylon-string guitar throughout.

(I made that last part up.)

I so want to hear that.

I really do.

Virtually no Wilson-Thomas work has leaked. It's very interesting. The only things that circulate are some tracks played on Steve Dahl's radio show, and an early version of "Your Imagination" without the verses. I would love to hear studio stuff from that period -- they recorded quite a bit.

Very interesting. Prior to this new Beach Boys album being announced, did anyone know of the songs that are on it? i mean it seems like there is quite a stash of BW / JT tunes that have more or less been kept secret - even the titles, let alone tapes circulating, so it is very interesting to know there is even more sitting in the vaults. And to be honest i don't really care what they sound like, i just wanna hear the songs.

..... a version of "Surf's Up" with Joe Thomas co-producing.

The mind boggles.

Wendy on the first section, Brian on the second.

Nylon-string guitar throughout.

(I made that last part up.)

I so want to hear that.

I really do.

This idea that, "well, that's just the effect of the day" is a cop-out.  The Beach Boys have always been forward-thinking and innovative with their recordings.  Auto-tune is already totally out of date as an effect.

Trufax ^_^ People will look back at autotune and laugh or cringe, just as they do with the booming synth drums of the 80s.

Or as people do with backwards guitar solos, or slapback echo, or rythmn king drum machines, or phasing.........

Using autotune as an effect; is this the digital version of reverb and echo in world of today's music making?

no, digital reverb and digital echo are the digital versions of reverb and echo.

Because only audio effects developed by the mid-60s (or their approximations) are legitimate, of course.

Autotune, in contemporary pop records, is indeed much like reverb in the 60s.

I mean, I could see something like double-tracking being compared, but reverb and echo are still widely used (really rare to find a pop hit without one or the other, or both), so the initial analogy doesn't make sense.

Audible pitch correction sounds worse than singing off-key in my (and many others') opinion.  The thing is they are double-tracking, using reverb and echo (and God knows what else) ... AND overusing pitch correction.  No one is talking about which effects are 'legitimate' ... anything goes in music and production.  But people are entitled to express their opinion when they feel something sounds bad.

This idea that, "well, that's just the effect of the day" is a cop-out.  The Beach Boys have always been forward-thinking and innovative with their recordings.  Auto-tune is already totally out of date as an effect.

Yeah i guess the problem again lies with expectations, both ours as listeners and of the band themselves. Thing is, if there is one thing the whole world can agree upon is that the Beach Boys are kings of harmony. Maybe even Gods. Their super tight fearless vocal blend is their weapon of mass destruction. It was damn near close to perfect in the days of 4 track recording, then it became a wonder to behold with the advent of multi tracking turning their 4 or 5 parts into a massive mulitlayered wall of vocal splendour.

Problem is now, they can't get anywhere close to that without a little help. There are 2 options -1) spend hour after hour trying to get a good part down, then repeat many times for the different layers, or 2) get a bit of technological help. Problem with option 1 is that they are now 70 year men whose voices (maybe with the exception of Al and Bruce) are completely shot, and the stamina required to stand up to vocal mike for hour after hour is somewhat lacking. As much as they would probably want to sing in perfect harmony on their own, they simply cannot anymore. Nothing to be ashamed of.

However that doesn't stop us as listeners expecting the same old perfection. So they need a bit of help. They use pitch correction, they use auto tune, and maybe just maybe a lot of this effect has to be applied to get suitable results. It does sound a bit weird and we all now know that they haven't got the vocal chops they once did, but it gives us a listenable record without killing anyone. A win win situation if ever there was one,

Cheers.

Do you know what happened to those Asher sessions. As far as i know there were two songs - Everything I Need and This Isn't Love. Obvously the former was recorded, and This Isn't Love was recorded as a piano instrumental. But were there any other songs written (i can't remember, but seem to recall there was at least one more) and if so were any recordings made. For me this short reunion of Wilson and Asher seemed to spark some real magic. Both Everything I Need and This Isn't Love (especially the live Roxy take) are big faves of mine and again hinted at something that if taken further could have resulted in something very memorable. Instead (as seems to be the constant frustration) we are left with a whole bunch of questions and what ifs.

I would trust Hal and Carol on the subject more if Everything I Need's original mix was awesome. But as folks can hear, it's just not a particularly exciting track.

As for the Paley sessions -- I personally hear far more BW in BW88 and SI than in that stuff. Brian superfans like Andy's aesthetic and thus convince themselves that Brian likes it too. I'm just not sure that's true.

The original "Everything I Need" track is brilliant in my opinion, a real classic.  I'm not certain I would call it a demo ... more like a mix-in-progress.  Everything is there on the original, it just needs a final mix and it's perfect.  Hal & Carol are totally right on that.

Same thing with the Paley tracks.  The thing that I don't get is that you used 'Everything I Need' as an example of of an actual, true-blue BW production. Yet, you claim the Paley stuff is Paley re-creating Brian. To my ears, "Everything I Need" sounds pretty similar to the Paley stuff.

And you also say it's not 'particularly exciting'. Not only do I disagree 100%, but I think it's important to release legitimate BW productions, warts and all (they used to call it 'character'). What's the point if it's watered down and doctored up to be deemed 'good enough' for the masses? What is going on here? It's just like an 'F-You' to the Beach Boys' and Brian's legacy. What would Dennis say about everything that has been released since the '80s? What the Beach Boys and the BW solo releases have been missing since DW passed is BALLS. And true BW productions have balls. And if DW were around, you can bet he'd be standing up for his brother.

(Listen to the fade of 'Everything I Need' [original] -- that is pure, classic BW.  And something that current producers would reject and 'fix').

Yeah the original Everything I Need is one i dearly love. The song, the voices, the quite simple arrangement are brilliant and a perfect compliment to each other. Perhaps thinking about it Brian works with what he is given (in fact i guess he always has done) meaning that the Paley sessions sound the way they do because Paley presented him with a studio full of vintage gear, Sweet Insanity sounds like it does because Landy and who else was involved gave him some dodgy synths to play around with, and so on. I believe that over the past 30 or 40 (maybe more years) Brian has relied upon someone else to open the door and give him an excuse to record. Brian hasn't actively pursued producers or studios to record, they have been given to him or have sought him out instead.

I've really enjoyed reading this thread. Brians solo years are probably the most fascinating to me, because they seem to have this constant push and pull to them. A battle between Brians songwriting (which has never diminshed) and outside collaborators who all seem to have their own agenda but who Brian needs to actually complete anything. Maybe Everything I Need is one of the last times Brian truly ran something himself. It's just a great shame that he didn't have the belief in his own work to say that it was finished and  unfortunately for us he let someone else do it for him.

I think Jon's more worried about those fans who only came to the Beach Boys because of Pet Sounds and Smile and have no room to consider an album like, say, MIU as something worth listening to.  I think he's saying that it is going to sound more like the latter than the former (and actually, probably more like Imagination if it's going to be "caribbean" and all).  If you are a fan who only likes them because of the "artistic" side of the music, the commerical sheen will be off-putting.  I get that.  You have to be willing to let your love for music that is looked down upon, the Perry Como instead of the Sinatra, to get into the album.

Exactly.

It looks like it easier to blame anyone but Brian for making a supposed bad record.

I just don't get it. Maybe the album does sound horribly cheesy and dated even by late 90's standards. Maybe Brian is completely happy with the sound. To suggest that Brian is there in name only and that he has had no input into this record nd how it was produced shows a complete lack of respect to Brian and those who support him. It's quite easy to see (judging by the history of the band of the last 50 years, that it is not an easy thing to make a Beach Boys or Brian Wilson record. It's exceedingly hard work and possibly infinitely frustrating for all involved. But maybe all the work and worry and heartache is worth it just to get something. A result. A song that still contains beauftiful melodies, complex harmony structure and those "only Brian can do" moving bass lines in the chords. Those things are still there. I can hear them in these clips of this new album. Brian is there in spades. His magic and unique way with a song is plain to see and hear. And if it had to be that the only way they could satisfy everyones needs and expectations was to get Joe Thomas in to co produce and Mertens to arrange the strings and things (because there no one else in the band can do it including Brian) and so on and on, then so be it. If some folk still want to lust after what is simply not possible then it is their problem and not Brians.

I totally agree Jon.

I've never understood this obsessivness regarding whether Brian is in control or not, whether he is cracking the whip in the studio, if what we listen to is a genuine authentic Brian Wilson production. As far as we know and are able to tell, he hasn't been in control since Smile. Every album, single, or recording has in some way been a shared effort - and you could argue that even the pre 67 stuff is as much shared by the personality of the co-writer and studio musicians (the same with Phil Spector). Even he fabled Love You was a co job. He was forced into writing and recording those songs by Dr Landy, so how anyone can say that is the "real" Brian is baffling. This kind of double guessing is not needed. Appreciate Brian for what he is and not what he isn't.

Today Brian needs help in writing songs, writiing lyrics, recording, arranging, producing etc. He can't do it on his own. And neither should we expect him to do so. He has done enough already. He'd done enough by the time he was 25 years old. I have no doubt that today left to his own devices, he would come up with jack sh*t. This kind of wet dream of Brian being left alone in a studio of full of keyboards creating masterpieces is a crock of sh*t. Of course he would play the keyboard, possibily write some of the most amazing melodies imaginable. But would he finish them without some help, or some kind of goal or reason to complete them. No he wouldn't. He is no longer 22 or 23 when the world was his for the taking. Unfortunately the world has passed him by. And i think in many ways that suits him fine. He cracked under the pressure of trying to keep up. It became easier for him to live without that pressure - and maybe that brought about it's own problems (coke, staying in bed, Danny Hutton etc) but that is a different issue.

The fact of the matter is that Brian has written and produced some of the most amazing, soulful, honest, beautiful music ever done by anyone, and in my opinion continues to do so. He has given us so much. So much that for some of us, his life and his work is as much ours as it is his. But he hasn't been alone in doing this. Gary Usher, Tony Asher, Van Dyke Parks, Tandyn Almer, Mike Love, Andy Paley, Dr Landy, Joe Thomas and many others have all been needed by Brian to help him realise his dreams. His work has been dependent on their support. Without them, the friends, associates, relations, managers etc, we wouldn't be here talking about whether the real Brian is still out there. Without them the real Brian would still be in bed, or worse.

Yeah Begin is a monster of an album. Sometimes i think it perhaps tries too hard - i kind of prefer the relatively simpler Ballroom tracks.

And i know most folks here won't agree, but i honestly think Usher wasn't too far off the mark in his thoughts of Boettcher and Wilson. I forget the "little surfer music" thing - that's just sour grapes, but Curt definitely had something that Brian didn't. And of course vice versa. But that's the beauty of having and knowing of the choice of listening to either.

Whilst passing, just thought i'd jump in and defend Boettcher's honour.

I think it's probably best to forget what Usher said and just concentrate on the music. And i have no problem in believing that Boettcher was on a par or ahead of Brian in certain respects. Most of the Ballroom tracks heard on that first disc of the Sundazed re-issue were tracked during the summer of 66, making them contemperous (is that a word??) with Brians recording of Good Vibrations. Now, i hear things in those Ballroom tracks that do equal Brian's own production efforts even during his peak of power. Tracks such as Baby Please Don't Go with it's overload of tape manipulation and cutting.  It's A Sad World  and it's haunting electronic oscillations and use of tape echo - and is also an amazing song, (and yes it wasn't written by Curt but who cares, he had the talent and vision to turn it into a masterpiece). The tuned percussion and Chamberlain (Mellotron) on Would You Like To Go and so on. And don't forget all these tracks and innovations were recorded with no budget on borrowed time, with little commercial or critical recognition to back him up.

Also listen to The Association's first album recorded in May/June of 66. Hear those tape explosions? Now where do we hear those again 6 months later? I'm In Great Shape. Not only that but Curt took that process of the echoes feeding back, but then looped them into walls of noise. Listen to Tommy Roe's It's Now Winters Day recorded at the tail end of 66 and you'll hear an icy blast of noise that lasts the entirety of the song created purely from the manipulation of the echo. He does a simillar thing on a single called My Heart Cries Out bu Action Unlimited, where the feedback creates waves of pure noise that wouldn't sound out of place on many a 90's shoegazing album. Listen again to Lee Mallorys Thats The Way It's Gonna Be. Backwards guitar, reverse echo on the vocals. But the thing is, these aren't just cheesy sound effects. They are integral to the arrangement and subsequent feel of the track. Which leads me to....

Vocal arranging. Right from his days of working with the folk group The Goldebriars Curt was blessed with the ability to put voices and harmony together in ways unheard of in folk. Listen to Railroad Boy, Shenadoh, Mumblin' Word on that first Goldebriars album and you'll hear it for sure. Then there is his backing vocal arrangements for the Association, the Bobby Jameson album, Tommy Roe. Curt had this knack of creating these cloud like chords that just sort of hang above the melody. He very often keeps a top note the same whilst everything beneath changes. It creates wonderful dischords and rubbing that no-one and i mean no-one else was doing.

It would be stupid for me to say that Curt was light years ahead of Brian. Those kind of hyperbolic statements don't do either party any favours. But when looked at objectively i can honestly say that Curt was at least Brian's equal in his work of studio production and vocal arranging. Perhaps where Brian holds the upper hand is in his songwriting and his instrumental arrangements. Plus he had the success to cement those talents into the consciouness of the world. Curt never really had that opporunity - too many dodgy contracts! But to dismiss Curt's efforts based purely on what Usher has said is a big mistake. And i'm pretty sure Brian would have been blown away after hearing the Lee Mallory single. How could he not be. I mean he was also blown away by many tracks such as Strawberry Fields, My Obsession, and so on. Nothing wrong with that. Quite the opposite. Proves Brian wanted to listen and also had respect for his competitors. Something some folk could learn from.







 

This whole suggestion by VDP sounds like sour grapes to me. The fact is plain and simple: the Beatles got there first. The suggestion they had to steal or borrow from Brian is absurd. Have a listen to Tomorrow Never Knows. I'd say they were on a pretty well-defined path to the aural experience of Sgt Peppers without the need to covertly listen to Smile. The experimentation on the album is pretty much where everyone was headed in 1967 anyway, and not some grand secret society to which only Brian and Van were privy.

I love Smile. I prefer BB material to the Beatles. However, I won't ever to agree the suggestion that the world's premiere pop/rock act were so bereft of talent that they had to pilfer other artists' work to call their own.

It is quite possible that both Brian and JL/PM reached their relevant musical nirvana's independent of each other.

Or perhaps during this holiest of holy secret pilfering the Beatles happened to hear "Teeter Totter Love" and figured they could definitely do better.

I wouldn't compare it to how I feel about the Beach Boys but I do consider myself a Beatles fan. I can't help but agree with you here, they were doing there own thing. All the top groups influenced each other, but Brian didn't steal from them and they didn't steal from him. They were good competition and got each other to try harder but that's it. I think Smile was amazing it was among the best of the best,  but I also feel that 1966-1967 was just about the apex of the 1951-71 period that I see as the golden age of music. The Beach Boys were at the forefront, Brian was influential, but there was so much talent then that deserves praising. The Beatles and dozens of others stand on their own.

Totally agree.

Though as Beach Boys historians value must given to the theory that the Beatles did hear some of the Smile music. Why? Well, not because of what the Beatles may or may not have stolen, but what the effect on Brian was. If Brian did honestly believe that the Beatles had stole some of his ideas, or that they were privy to certain tapes, then how would that affect Brian. Would it be just another example of his ever growing paranoia, would it be the final straw that tipped him over the edge? Was the thought that he had been violated or raped the thing that stopped his work on Smile. If Brian was told that the Beatles had found the nest, then who told him? Where would Brian (or Van Dyke for that matter) have got the idea from?

We have proven that it was more or less impossible for the Beatles to have heard Smile tapes first hand from a studio in L.A. But they could still have heard bits of Smile via acetate form, or even by word of mouth (ideas / concepts etc). We know that Lou Adler gave Paul McCartney a sneak preview of Pet Sounds before Bruce Johnston flew over to the UK. We also know that Derek Taylor was Byrds publicist around the time the Bealtes started sounding Byrds like. He was also publicist for Captain Beefheart - and what stickers did John Lennon have on his wall? Captain Beefheart Safe As Milk ones of course!! I know those examples are pretty obtuse and insubstantial, but i wouldn't bet against two way communications across the Atlantic taking place between those people who surrounded Brian and those who worked in England. That was how the music biz worked.

But what is apparent and this has possibily intensified over the years with the many bootlegs is that Van had lost the bond with Smile. It was longer his own work, but has become tainted and abused by the many myths and stories that his own personal feeling about the music and his involvement no longer matters. This was probably somewhat rectified when he was called back to work on BWPS, but i can't help feeling that Van has always resented not the fact that Smile didn't come out, but that he wasn't allowed to finish the job and that perhaps some other band did.

Andy, you also wrote, "Van has always resented not the fact that SMiLE didn't come out, but that he wasn't allowed to finish the job and that perhaps some other band did." Not disagreeing with you Andy, but, not ALLOWED to finish the job"? Who's fault was that? Was he fired? Did Brian ask him to leave? Did he accept an offer for a solo album? Yeah, it was that no-talent Mike Love's questions and objections that forced him out. And Van Dyke was sure to make THAT known over the years.

Van Dyke has picked and choosed (or chosen?) the points that he wanted to make about SMiLE over the years; he's been very selective. Come on, Van Dyke, sit down and answer ALL of the fans questions. It wouldn't take that long. You could do it in one afternoon or one evening. Straighten out the myths and falsities. Clear it with Brian; he probably wouldn't care anyway. Van Dyke doesn't have a wife who posts here, does he?

Yeah Van Dyke has definitley held back over the years, and i think he has done for two reasons. First out of loyalty to Brian (he possibily alone knew how much Brian was hurt by smile not coming out - why intensify that hurt by talking about it? - Maybe the odd soundbite has come out over the years simply out of frustration), and secondly because of guilt. He openly admits in Beautiful Dreamer that he and his cohorts - Anderle, Vosse, Siegel etc - all fled when the going got tough. Instead of fighting his corner he high tailed thinking his job was done, when perhaps deep down he knew it wasn't. On the one hand he was just the hired lyricist, but on the other he and Brian knew that what they had together (and they still do) was something special and that it should have been something worth fighting over.

Whatever the reason Van left Brian is in this context irrelevant. The fact is he did leave Brian, and he has most likely resented that decision ever since.

Just a couple of thoughts while i'm thinking!!

1) I think it has been stated in the Paul Williams conversations with David Anderle that Smile was a very personal voyage of discovery for both Brian and Van Dyke. The intimacy that these two shared in the writing process was perhaps what made most of the music so very special. But sometimes i get a sense when Van Dyke has spoken of the Smile era that somehow he felt betrayed, that the bond between the two creators was not allowed to fulfill it's potential. Whether it was the Beach Boys or the many hangers on, that drew the wedge between Brian, himself and the album it doesn't really matter. But what is apparent and this has possibily intensified over the years with the many bootlegs is that Van had lost the bond with Smile. It was longer his own work, but has become tainted and abused by the many myths and stories that his own personal feeling about the music and his involvement no longer matters. This was probably somewhat rectified when he was called back to work on BWPS, but i can't help feeling that Van has always resented not the fact that Smile didn't come out, but that he wasn't allowed to finish the job and that perhaps some other band did.

So having said that it's quite possible that he has cynical feelings about those times. Such as people (The Beatles!!) stealing the music/ideas that he and Brian lovingly crafted. Perhaps it was paranoia, or maybe someone fed him a story, but i do believe that somehow he believes that The Beatles did sneak a preview of their work and that it is just another example to him of the lack of privacy afforded to them. Which perhaps leads to point 2;

2) The studios of LA were not closed shops. They didn't seem to have locks on the doors when recording sessions were in flow. Many people attended the sessions, many of which had no real ties to the artists themselves, other than they knew a friend of a friend, or that they were a musician etc. Spector had loads of people at his sessions, in fact he thrived on them being there. There's the stories of Brian and Gary Usher hearing a Curt Boettcher session and being blown away. Frank Zappa had a whole army at his sessions. The point is that if anyone wanted to hear what was going on, could and most probably would, just by going down the studio. The studio was where it was at. Forget live performances. Read the Jules Siegel article about the Fire session and you have an example.

What i'm saying is that Brians Smile music was probably as well known to the many people around Brian as it was to him and Van Dyke. The multitudes of acetates, listening parties, just Brian talking about it, would spread the word. The Beatles or whoever didn't need to have sneaky visits to locked up vaults to hear about the music. The people around Brian and Van Dyke most likely did it for them. And that would surely be where the influence (if any) came from. George Martin himself said in Beautiful Dreamer that he and the Beatles heard about Smile.......then it never appeared. Just the same for everyone else then.

I don't think IWBA/Friday Night was ever meant to be part of Fire.  Way too much has been made of Brian's offhand remark to Carol that this was "rebuilding after the fire."  I interpret that to mean that he was making positive, creative (literally creative - as in woodshop, music that incorporated sounds of making things into the song) music after having created the negative, destructuve fire energy the day before, not that IWBA/FN was the second part of Fire.  Brian was still a bit freaked out by the Fire session and the music and this was music to counterbalance the sinister "bad vibes" of that day.

Let's think about it - if Brian had meant IWBA/FN to be part of Fire/The Elements, why would the session slate be "Friday Night" rather than "The Elements Part 2 Fire" as it had been "The Elements Part 1 Fire" the day before?  why would the session sheet list the song as "Friday Night" rather than the elements?  And why wouldn't anyone other than Carol (like Anderle, Vosse, Van Dyke, Carl, Derek Taylor) have any recall of this piece being part of Fire/The Elements?  In Vosse's P.R. piece on the session (reprinted in LLVS), there's no mention of this being part of The Elements. 

Now if you say this is part of I'm in Great Shape, I think there's a better argument to be made.

Yep. I'm quite happy to along with that. Always thought personally that IWBA/FN was gonna be part of the Barnyard suit Brian mentioned.

Though just a thought to remember. We have constantly been told by the participants and observers of the Smile recordings that things would get swapped around pretty often. So in some ways i would not hold too much stock in the naming of various sections and session tapes. If these claims of one section being swapped from on song to another, it could be that Smile was a lot more fluid in its construction than perhaps we give Brian credit for.

From what i understood, i thought the sections were recorded in pieces, just like the 66/67 originals. But i think the big difference probably is, is that they were most likely recorded in sequence and in the same studio, on the same day, with the same musicians, in the same positions, with everything set up exactly the same. So even though they used the modular technique to edit the thing together, there was less scope for randomness and variety and just plain different vibes to influence each individual piece.

Unlike the original recordings which seemed to be recorded at random, at different studios, etc.

The same but different. Kind of sums up BWPS.

Yeah, i remember reading something along those lines. But can't for the life of me remember where. Don't have the Gaines book to hand to check.