Mike is an old zebra, he's not going to change his stripes this late in life.  I don't know why some of us expect him to. Mike and Brian are better off without each other. Mike has his team - Bruce, Scott, Cowsill, Ike, etc. Brian has his team - Melinda, Al, Darian, Blondie. Brian fans should be thankful that @$$hole isn't with Mike.

Did you *seriously* refer to Brian as an asshole?! Well at least you’re open about your feelings about Brian now.

Couldn’t agree any more

Yeah. I can REALLY see the effects drugs had on his spine. Cocaine , LSD, and heroin are well known for making someone turn 80 and require multiple back surgeries. Now excuse me, I’m about to do a hot rail off this knife so I can get arthritis and gout when I’m 96.

If I didn’t know any better, I’d swear Mike Love and Kreen were the same person 🙄

At one point, the loss of the Paley sessions seemed like a tragedy.

But then we got BWPS, TLOS, BWRG and TWGMTR. Brian working with his band, writing and arranging new and familiar tunes, and eventually singing far better than he ever had in his solo career. He gave us a late career miracle, of a kind I will never forget or underestimate.

The myth of the Paley sessions persists, and don’t get me wrong — I think everyone here would love a collection at some point. But so much else happened in the subsequent 27 years that I no longer see it as much of a tragedy. Would it have been nice? Sure. But did we still get a bunch of top quality new material from BW? Yes. Did we get great tours and shows? Yep. Did the vast majority of highlights from the sessions find their way out anyway? They sure did.

I think the fact that we got Imagination instead caused it to get elevated more in the 1999-2002 timeframe when it looked like that was all we were gonna get studio album-wise. But, Brian outdid it several times after, esp on the Gershwin album which has my favorite vocals he’s ever done . His voice may have been better in his youth, but he sang his ass off.

But I digress

I have to clarify a thing about my insistence on "don't **** with the formula". I use it as a metaphor.
Yes, I know that if you want to analyse the reasons for the demise of the Paley Sessions, there are a lot. I am not so naive or uninformed as to believe there was only reason, or a couple of them.
But in another sense, all those reasons coalesce into a giant metaphorical "don't **** with the formula, Brian".

I think any rational fan saw what you were saying. I'm glad Kreen wrote the "But I thought nobody tells Brian Wilson what to do?" because it perfectly showcases the ignorance of a small swath of the fanbase that loves to needle anyone who has any sympathy/liking/preference for the Brian camp. Acting like a tool, not participating in any rational discourse when your opinion/post is countered shows exactly why there is such a divide among the fandom...fortunately I think most sane fans see how the petulant trolling isn't winning anyone over to that side.

I think that the attitude a sadly non-negligible section of the BB "fandom" keeps regarding Brian is one of the most shameful examples of "ableism" ever. It's absurd, crazy, and it has gone on for too, far too long. Tom Hardy is the only answer they deserve. "That's bait."

It goes beyond that; I think the mocking stems from the fact they for whatever reason don’t like Brian very much, the way some feel towards Mike, or the way I feel about Billie Eilish. These are the types of people who likely grew up as bullies and see Brian’s issues as a sign of weakness. I just roll my eyes and scroll , hoping a rule infringement would happen so the inane comments would stop. Til then, we’ll just keep playing the world’s lamest game of internet chicken.

Brian was Landy’s victim, and unfortunately some people like to blame the victim rather than the perpetrator

Have you read Cindy Lee Berryhill's account of the Beach Boys group session with Paley and Brian? That alone indicates a lot of more nuanced, weird, deep stuff was going on than simply someone thinking the material wasn't commercial. A lot of weird passive-aggressive stuff was going. And that was only on the more micro level when it came to actually literally working on the material. The larger political issues surrounding the organization were also at play. I've probably already gone on about a lot of that already in this thread.

Where can I find this?

It doesn't matter. There are two kinds of people who showed up to those BB reunion shows. Hardcore fans like all of us here who bought the record Day One. And casual  fans who don't care for any new music they release and only want to hear the hits. Even if the band had stayed together, there's no audience for new music from old acts beyond the hardcore fanbase. Paul McCartney, in a recent interview, talked about this :

You’re missing the third, most important group of all… the new fans (mostly around college age) who were just getting into the band from TSSand were excited at the opportunity to see the reunited lineup for the first/only time. That was a HUGE part of it, especially since many of them went on to be musicians of note themselves, or make up a huge portion of the indie pop/indie rock journalism scene. It’s one of the big parts of the renaissance over the past decade, and for some reason (likely ageism) it’s the segment of the fanbase the longer term fans dismiss, if not outright despise.  They were certainly there during  c50 , and not just at Bonnaroo (the fact that they even PLAYED there also spoke volumes). I think some of us even commented on that during the original c50 tour threads, how there was a surprising amount of 20 somethings in the crowds, and TWGMTR and especially Isn’t It Time seemed to go over better with *them* than others. No, they weren’t drawn in by the new songs, but they certainly didn’t embarrass the BB like the newer output did in 1995, which was the last time The Beach Boys were starting to get indie cred and f***ed it up , hence the very subject of this thread.

Those people are parents now, or had small kids then. This is the generation watching Stranger things or doing YouTube videos doing in-depth analysis on why they’re disappointed with the mastering of the new compilation.

Oh and McCartney had a good amount of exposure for his song “New” a year or so after . Yeah it was in a kids movie but still.

A top-5 album is a top-5 album whether the artist is 75 or 20.

Yes, but a top-5 album is not a top-5 album whether the year is 1970 versus 2012, and whether the album remains in the top 5 for 20 weeks or stays there for one week before dropping out of the top 200 altogether.

You say it's diminishing the accomplishment. I'm saying there is no accomplishment to diminish: it sold the minimal number it was always going to sell. They have a fanbase of about 20,000 people worldwide that will buy a new album in the first week. Millions more like their old music but will not buy or listen to any new album they put out.

It reminds me of the old spin Sony Music put on Michael Jackson's Blood on the Dance Floor album. "It's the best-selling remix album of all time". Some fans still use that factoid all these years later. Sounds good, until you remember remix albums are usually niche releases, which means of course a major MJ album promoted as a real new album will be the best-selling remix album of all time by default. Record stores still sent back unsold copies to Sony by the truckload.
[/quote]


Well , sh*t then, guess we should abandon the charts entirely since they’re worthless. Everyone instead gets a participation trophy.  “Only” making it to #3 on the top 200… those poor imaginary non-existent other 197 artists ranked below them must’ve really been depressed that week.

If I win the lottery tomorrow, I’ll throw away the ticket because it means less, since less people are buying it vs a few weeks ago when the jackpot was several hundred million. Hell, so long to my right kidney; it’s only functioning at a percentage of its smaller cousin. I have two kids, but might as well give my son up since the sex lasted longer when I conceived my daughter.*

* not really. I mean, I didn’t have a stop watch set . Obviously that was a joke, but I could *never* pass up the opportunity to be sarcastic. It’s my civil duty.


Edit

Wtf happened to the quote tree?

Isn’t It Time was the only instance I’m ever familiar with where BW lip-synced (that incredibly exposed first verse).

Do you mean he lip-synced that verse during concert performances?

Never had confirmation, but it was always suspiciously in tune and on time.

Not always! And if so, either multiple different recordings were used, or the pre-recording stopped around the time Melodyne wasn’t being used

B

“Mr Clean Living” looking high af and smoking a cigarette.

i don't think Mike has ever denied doing a little reefer back in the day. He drew the line at hard drugs - and more power to him.
I find it odd that we diss the guy with the courage of good sense to stay away from cocaine and heroin and all the other bad stuff, while the worst abusers are thought of as nearly saintly.
At least Carl was strong enough to get off whatever he was on in Australia. I sure wish Dennis had followed his example.

The only reason anyone is dissing Mike is because he make such a stink about being clean living and he’s always criticizing the Wilson brothers’ substance use, when in the meantime he used drugs and smoked cigarettes too. In other words, people are criticizing his hypocrisy.

I’d also note that equating being able to get off hard drugs with “strength” is not accurate. Drug use and addiction have a lot of factors and putting it down to “strength” is essentially making a moral judgement about it.

Completely agreed

It was basically Mike/Carl/Bruce vs Brian and Al at that point

Based on what I observed backstage then, the alliances ran Mike & Bruce and Carl & Al, but then I'm just an outside observer. I suspect, as the group's mediator, Carl was the man in the middle.

I meant in regards to Brian

Because it was important to Mike and he was in complete control of the band at that point. It was basically Mike/Carl/Bruce vs Brian and Al at that point

Whoa…

Not only that, but production issues aside, it was the best album quality wise since the early 70s with no real clunkers. That’s an accomplishment in and of itself.

Controversial opinion time… Despite being a Wilson, Carl post-1983 seems to have a lot more in common with Mike than either of his brothers. Maybe it was Dennis’s loss,  maybe it was him being able to relate to Mike better after joining that cult, I dunno. All I do know is that the *real* band could’ve had one final great album but instead he sided with Mike. Honestly, I think if he’d had lived, we might not have gotten C50 barring a major thawing of relations. We might have had a case where the touring entities with Brian/Al vs Mike/Carl/Bruce. Who would be the “real” Beach Boys in that scenario?

Well, we won't ever know, but relations had already been thawing from where their lowest point was (He was Brian's best man at his wedding to Melinda), and I think once Brian really showed that he was alright to do live touring again, Carl would've wanted to work with Brian, especially when everybody else was also enthusiastic about doing it. I guess we won't ever really know how that would go.

They got married at the beginning of the year. Didn’t the falling out happen in the fall, when Carl said he was done? I can’t remember off the top of my head when the Uncut interview happened.

Controversial opinion time… Despite being a Wilson, Carl post-1983 seems to have a lot more in common with Mike than either of his brothers. Maybe it was Dennis’s loss,  maybe it was him being able to relate to Mike better after joining that cult, I dunno. All I do know is that the *real* band could’ve had one final great album but instead he sided with Mike. Honestly, I think if he’d had lived, we might not have gotten C50 barring a major thawing of relations. We might have had a case where the touring entities with Brian/Al vs Mike/Carl/Bruce. Who would be the “real” Beach Boys in that scenario?

😎

A little late, but man, how can people forget THIS picture of Brian with a hat?

lol that used to be my avatar here

How *did* we get on this subject again, anyway?

Same

I recall reading somewhere that it was exactly that, and rather small

“Mr Clean Living” looking high af and smoking a cigarette.

i don't think Mike has ever denied doing a little reefer back in the day. He drew the line at hard drugs - and more power to him.
I find it odd that we diss the guy with the courage of good sense to stay away from cocaine and heroin and all the other bad stuff, while the worst abusers are thought of as nearly saintly.
At least Carl was strong enough to get off whatever he was on in Australia. I sure wish Dennis had followed his example.

I wasn’t criticizing him for it! Just pointing out the fact that this was way before I was born; my earliest beach boys memory was the 86 anniversary special. Finding out he tried mescaline still blows my mind (pardon the pun). Hell, I keep having to go back and look at that stubbly Carl photo again. That was a really good look, but it just was so foreign to how I’m used to seeing him in that era that it just looks weird.

Happy birthday Billy! 

Thank you 😎

Happy birthday billy!

Thank you! I’m 44, look 54, feel 74, act 24.