^ I personally prefer the Brian is Back era to anything else after Friends.

They appear to have only two amps- the smaller one looks like a Bassman for Brian, and the larger one a Showman, presumably shared by Carl & Al. Notable that I’m not seeing a reverb tank (could be behind the amp).

Most likely scenarios here IMO:

1. Al just shows up, assuming the group brought David’s gear- everyone realizes they didn’t plan this very well, and Al borrow’s the other fellow’s guitar. He asks to borrow it for another later gig too (fellow of course doesn’t remember this stuff).

2. The groups arrange between one another or management to borrow the guitar for some upcoming gigs. But- how did they rehearse? Al playing along on an acoustic?

3. Al does have an electric guitar and brings it but- it’s a crappy one and he plays with another guitar whenever there is a better one available.

3. A 1974-1982 set

15 Big Ones, Love You, Adult Child and MIU are enormous, at least as many songs as the period Feel Flows is looking to cover without even including the scattered '73-'75 tracks. The LA, KTSA and post-KTSA era is almost equally huge. It couldn't feasibly sit beside the rest on a single release unless the scale increased dramatically or the depth dropped by a lot.

Yes.

How about this:

CARIBOU (1972-75) - outtakes from So Tough to pre-15 Big Ones, presented as a proper album that could have been.

ENDLESS SUMMER LIVE (1972-75) - cover art like Endless Summer but with real photos of the group from the era. Track list mirrors Endless Summer as closely as possible for the first disc!

BRIAN IS BACK (1976-77) - 15 Big Ones + Love You + MIU  outtakes + New Album, Adult Child, etc.

1978-2012 - everything else. Not too much marketable here is what I think is the problem.

[most]

I really don't see any reason to deviate from combining CATP/Holland [the Ricky + Blonde era] for one release - I know there aren't huge numbers of outtakes - followed by a release highlighting the bands live chops through the 1972-1974 era, including of course, the full 1 disc version of In Concert / live shows from '72 - '74.

Unless I'm missing something and a box set that we've been told covers Sunflower and Surf's Up (and was originally scheduled for early 2020) also covers most of Carl and the Passions.

Well this convo came about because a good chunk of So Tough is coming in Feel Flows- portions of So Tough were cut in 1971. The set covers 1969-71, so before Sunflower and after Surf’s Up. Not sure how many tracks but since there are only 8, it could be a chunk. “Marcella” seems more or less confirmed, and I know sessions for “Mess of Help”/“Beatrice from Baltimore”, “All This Is That” and “He Come Down” began in ‘71. But maybe they’ll just do early versions or something. Also Dennis’ tracks might potentially have some overlap with his 1971 material.

WOW/ thanks for those pics! Really cool man.

I met PF Sloan, and that was indeed a convention-challenging dude right there.

It's a good point, Donny.  The 60s is of interest to me for the same reason -- the Standard Operating Procedure had not been settled upon.  There were standard ways of doing things, but these things were much more localized.  There was a standard way to record an orchestra playing classical music, and a standard way to do film scores, but popular music had yet to truly settle in.

And of course, in the 60s you really had the ultimate apotheosis of the promiscuity of the establishment and those looking to mix things up.  Never before and never since have we had someone like Barney Kessel playing guitar with somebody like Glen Campbell on, say, a Sinatra record.  But the funny thing is, you could look at Barney Kessel as an establishment, pro jazz guy, but he was really innovative in his jazz world, even if he seemed conservative to somebody like, Glen or Jerry Cole.  And then you have people like Brian Wilson whose influences were really not like his contemporaries, using these people in his own way.

Wow really? You’ve got to tell me about meeting PF Sloan. He’s up there to me with Brian Wilson, I have  all of his records. Very inspirational and super underrated. I also found his book very moving.

https://youtu.be/w1HG6ATknOA

He also was basically the artist for most of the first Grass Roots record (1966), a classic that has gone way under the radar.

https://youtu.be/JvHlbwQiCtA

As far as The BBs In Concert is concerned, I'm looking forward to an expanded CD set as well as copyright extension digital releases of every 1972 and 1973 concert recorded for potential use in that album.

Yes!  
This still exists btw: http://beachboyscentral.com/ so regular downloads of concerts would be nice.
Anyway, the live recordings from that era ('70-'74/5) need to be released. They were so good back then. I just listened to the Nassau radio broadcast from '74 a couple of days back. What a band!

As the set covers 1969-71, it technically encompasses what you might call "post-20/20" through So Tough. In terms of releases, this would be the "Break Away" single through So Tough. With regard to unreleased material, the "last Capitol album" (Fading Rock Group Revival, Reverberation, etc.) would be the earliest record. As portions of that record ultimately became Sunflower, it's fair to say Sunflower-So Tough ... but the problem with that description is that it excludes actual post-20/20 releases like "Break Away"/"Celebrate the News" and "Cottonfields".

IMO the best way to go next is for two sets: 1972-75 (the Holland-In Concert-Endless Summer era), then the Brian is Back-era (1976-77).  Worth noting that good portions of 15 Big Ones and Love You were actually cut 1973-75 ("Ding Dang", "It's OK", "Night Was So Young", "Back Home" etc.), so that would create a kind of interesting feel on these releases.

I see. So it will not be limited to just the two albums but even more material. Gets better and better every time I learn something new about the set. The "Cottonfileds" single was actually on the european release of "Sunflower", so it makes sense to have it on the set. The acapella mix (if to be found on "Feel Flows") will blow away everyone's mind if they haven't heard it.
When it comes to "Holland", I really think that a standalone release would make sense. That is, if enough material is there to fill out more than just one disc. Obviously you have "Mt. Vernon" and "We got love", but I don't know if there's more (not sure if "Hard Times" was recorded for "Holland"). Maybe a second disc of live performances in the Netherlands. But it would still need something more.
A set as you mention (Holland-In Concert-Endless Summer) would be my second choice, I guess. The recordings after "Holland" have such a different feel, so that I would release them independently. But whatever, I am sure that Alan, Mark and Howie will find a way.

Live tracks for FEEL FLOWS would not include anything from '72 (or so I would surmise...), which is the first time a number of well-regarded tunes debut in the live shows. So I'm surmising that the HOLLAND-IN CONCERT-"CARIBOU MIRAGE" period is going to be heavy on augmenting IN CONCERT, including all or most of the items that didn't make the cut back in the day.

Unless our heroes uncover a ton of unreleased tracks and outtakes rivaling what we saw on SUNSHINE TOMORROW and I CAN HEAR MUSIC, I'm just not sensing that this is going to rise to the level of a physical release. I think that is more likely to happen for a BRIAN IS BACK!? set, which could also avail itself of the ADULT CHILD material. This period has Brian as the narrative hook, with plenty of outtakes and alternate versions. There's no doubt that it would receive a lot of media attention...

While post-1977 recordings would be really interesting for us fans, I can’t think of anything particularly marketable or remarkable ... except maybe those random tracks like “Stevie”.

I think Holland has potential but there are not many outtakes there. For that reason, I could see a 2-3 disc set of unreleased tracks from Holland + In Concert +outtakes being a pretty sure bet because the band was good and there’s a lot of the hits to draw from in unreleased versions etc. Oh and if they play up the Endless Summer era, and give it a catchy name ... maybe even cover art like Endless Summer but with real photos of the group ... really lots of cool potential there.

The Brian is Back era is really the last goldmine. That stuff is legend and in many ways as great as anything they’ve ever done. And getting it all laid out with New Album, Adult Child, etc ... to me, that’s even more exciting that Feel Flows. This one really should be a box.

[THE BEACH BOYS LOVE YOU]

You have a great memory . . . when it comes to the format/layout-

Entry no.302  

APR 11, 1977 Brother-Reprise MSK 2258 (LP)
Recorded: Fall 1976 except +Early 1976, %1973 and $1970
by The Beach Boys
THE BEACH BOYS LOVE YOU      Prod: Brian Wilson
     Mixdown Producer: Carl Wilson

side one
     Let Us Go On This Way-BW-Mike Love--] :58
     Roller Skating Child-BW--2:16
     Mona-BW-2:05
     Johnny Carson--BW--2:46
   $Good Time-BW-Alan Jardine--2:48
     Honkin' Down The Highway---BW---2:46
   %Ding Dang-BW-Roger McGuinn---0:54
side two
     Solar System-BW-2:47
     The Night Was So Young--BW --2:13
     I'll Bet He's Nice-BW---2:35
     Let's Put Our Hearts Together--BW--2:11
  +I Wanna Pick You Up-BW--2:38
     Airplane--BW-3:05
     Love Is A Woman--BW-2:55


As you say, it may have been a different book.

Sweet thanks ha

Another thing to consider is: the 1960s studio scene was all about breaking rules & creating new standards. To me, that is one thing that quintessentially separates the '60s from the '70s and beyond- music industry standards were continually in flux to the point that they really had yet to be distinctly established IMO. This is exemplified by the fact that somewhere around say, 1968- it was common for a pro studio to have a 4-track, 8-track, 12-track, and/or 16-track recorder. By the time you get to the mid-'70s, every studio would be 24-track.

In terms of guitar strings ... we have things like Nashville tuning, Dano bass, Bellzouki, etc ... if you look at the back cover of PF Sloan's Measure of Pleasure record, you can see he's strung up his 12-string with something like 9-10 strings in a particular arrangement.

What I'm getting at is the people we are talking about - were all about breaking convention. So while they may have accepted certain conventions, they also may have challenged others and been an exception.

As the set covers 1969-71, it technically encompasses what you might call "post-20/20" through So Tough. In terms of releases, this would be the "Break Away" single through So Tough. With regard to unreleased material, the "last Capitol album" (Fading Rock Group Revival, Reverberation, etc.) would be the earliest record. As portions of that record ultimately became Sunflower, it's fair to say Sunflower-So Tough ... but the problem with that description is that it excludes actual post-20/20 releases like "Break Away"/"Celebrate the News" and "Cottonfields".

IMO the best way to go next is for two sets: 1972-75 (the Holland-In Concert-Endless Summer era), then the Brian is Back-era (1976-77).  Worth noting that good portions of 15 Big Ones and Love You were actually cut 1973-75 ("Ding Dang", "It's OK", "Night Was So Young", "Back Home" etc.), so that would create a kind of interesting feel on these releases.

Huh, The Night Was So Young? Not that one.

I like those ideas for coverage. It'd probably be necessary if annual digital releases are becoming less stable. Alan expressed interest in doing a "Brian's Back" box semi-recently, which in his mind would cover 15 Big Ones to MIU. The MIU sessions are vast in of themselves and could potentially dilute a deserved focus on the 15BO-LY-AC trilogy, but I'm not sure how else you'd do it with the next phase being the CBS albums. Can't imagine an MIU boxset on its own selling.

I’m certain “Night Was So Young” was documented as having been recorded in 1974 somewhere, but can’t find a reference online. Certainly it could not have been part of the Love You sessions proper- it has a totally different sonic imprint.

MIU would be included in a 1976-77 release. Not sure what they added in ‘78 if anything, but the core sessions were fall ‘77. By 1978, we’re into the Caribou era- which IMO would be pretty tough to chronicle as a a marketable package. At least “Good Timin” would go on the ‘72-‘75 release.

Donny, "The Night Was So Young" might have been written around '75 (it's reportedly about Debbie Kiel), but it was definitely recorded in '76 or early '77. For one thing, it's a 24-track recording, whereas everything from '74 is 16-track. "Winds Of Change" and "Come Go With Me" from MIUwere finished in '78, so there was a little bit of overlap there with the early L.A. era.

To add to this, its position on lists and a rough mix reel suggests to me that it could've been recorded simultaneously with We Gotta Groove, which is extremely Love You. Both of them have Wilsons playing together on similar sounding tack piano, guitar and drums. Even if not, it's typical Love You instrumentation. To my ears it unmistakably has the sonic signature of those sessions, especially the early mix, which existed on a November '76 compilation. You wouldn't think of My Diane as Love You either without being told because it didn't get as far as Brian adding a synth.

As for the sonic signature I am referring to, I still say "Night Was So Young" is an outlier. It sounds sonically more like "Ding Dang" and "It's OK" than the rest of the record to me. But "I Wanna Pick You Up" is in the ballpark too.

As the set covers 1969-71, it technically encompasses what you might call "post-20/20" through So Tough. In terms of releases, this would be the "Break Away" single through So Tough. With regard to unreleased material, the "last Capitol album" (Fading Rock Group Revival, Reverberation, etc.) would be the earliest record. As portions of that record ultimately became Sunflower, it's fair to say Sunflower-So Tough ... but the problem with that description is that it excludes actual post-20/20 releases like "Break Away"/"Celebrate the News" and "Cottonfields".

IMO the best way to go next is for two sets: 1972-75 (the Holland-In Concert-Endless Summer era), then the Brian is Back-era (1976-77).  Worth noting that good portions of 15 Big Ones and Love You were actually cut 1973-75 ("Ding Dang", "It's OK", "Night Was So Young", "Back Home" etc.), so that would create a kind of interesting feel on these releases.

Huh, The Night Was So Young? Not that one.

I like those ideas for coverage. It'd probably be necessary if annual digital releases are becoming less stable. Alan expressed interest in doing a "Brian's Back" box semi-recently, which in his mind would cover 15 Big Ones to MIU. The MIU sessions are vast in of themselves and could potentially dilute a deserved focus on the 15BO-LY-AC trilogy, but I'm not sure how else you'd do it with the next phase being the CBS albums. Can't imagine an MIU boxset on its own selling.

I’m certain “Night Was So Young” was documented as having been recorded in 1974 somewhere, but can’t find a reference online. Certainly it could not have been part of the Love You sessions proper- it has a totally different sonic imprint.

MIU would be included in a 1976-77 release. Not sure what they added in ‘78 if anything, but the core sessions were fall ‘77. By 1978, we’re into the Caribou era- which IMO would be pretty tough to chronicle as a a marketable package. At least “Good Timin” would go on the ‘72-‘75 release.

Donny, "The Night Was So Young" might have been written around '75 (it's reportedly about Debbie Kiel), but it was definitely recorded in '76 or early '77. For one thing, it's a 24-track recording, whereas everything from '74 is 16-track. "Winds Of Change" and "Come Go With Me" from MIUwere finished in '78, so there was a little bit of overlap there with the early L.A. era.

Makes sense- anyone have the ‘81 Brad Elliot book? Trying to determine if I’m crazy or not. Nevermind don’t answer that question ...

I have it - I'll check when I get home and report back.

Just following this up - as promised - there's no specific reference to The Night Was So Young in Elliott's book with an earlier date, but reference is made to I Wanna Pick You Up being recorded during the 15 Big Ones sessions, and a working title for 15BO being "Pick Ya Up At 8". I'd say this is what you were thinking of.??

I can't 100% remember (this was when I was a teenager in the '90s), but in the discography- it would have asterisks etc next to certain tracks and indicate different years recorded I think? Of course I might just have confused "night was so young" with "It's OK" or "Good Timin" for all these years or something. Or it might have been a different book.

As the set covers 1969-71, it technically encompasses what you might call "post-20/20" through So Tough. In terms of releases, this would be the "Break Away" single through So Tough. With regard to unreleased material, the "last Capitol album" (Fading Rock Group Revival, Reverberation, etc.) would be the earliest record. As portions of that record ultimately became Sunflower, it's fair to say Sunflower-So Tough ... but the problem with that description is that it excludes actual post-20/20 releases like "Break Away"/"Celebrate the News" and "Cottonfields".

IMO the best way to go next is for two sets: 1972-75 (the Holland-In Concert-Endless Summer era), then the Brian is Back-era (1976-77).  Worth noting that good portions of 15 Big Ones and Love You were actually cut 1973-75 ("Ding Dang", "It's OK", "Night Was So Young", "Back Home" etc.), so that would create a kind of interesting feel on these releases.

Huh, The Night Was So Young? Not that one.

I like those ideas for coverage. It'd probably be necessary if annual digital releases are becoming less stable. Alan expressed interest in doing a "Brian's Back" box semi-recently, which in his mind would cover 15 Big Ones to MIU. The MIU sessions are vast in of themselves and could potentially dilute a deserved focus on the 15BO-LY-AC trilogy, but I'm not sure how else you'd do it with the next phase being the CBS albums. Can't imagine an MIU boxset on its own selling.

I’m certain “Night Was So Young” was documented as having been recorded in 1974 somewhere, but can’t find a reference online. Certainly it could not have been part of the Love You sessions proper- it has a totally different sonic imprint.

MIU would be included in a 1976-77 release. Not sure what they added in ‘78 if anything, but the core sessions were fall ‘77. By 1978, we’re into the Caribou era- which IMO would be pretty tough to chronicle as a a marketable package. At least “Good Timin” would go on the ‘72-‘75 release.

Donny, "The Night Was So Young" might have been written around '75 (it's reportedly about Debbie Kiel), but it was definitely recorded in '76 or early '77. For one thing, it's a 24-track recording, whereas everything from '74 is 16-track. "Winds Of Change" and "Come Go With Me" from MIUwere finished in '78, so there was a little bit of overlap there with the early L.A. era.

Makes sense- anyone have the ‘81 Brad Elliot book? Trying to determine if I’m crazy or not. Nevermind don’t answer that question ...

As the set covers 1969-71, it technically encompasses what you might call "post-20/20" through So Tough. In terms of releases, this would be the "Break Away" single through So Tough. With regard to unreleased material, the "last Capitol album" (Fading Rock Group Revival, Reverberation, etc.) would be the earliest record. As portions of that record ultimately became Sunflower, it's fair to say Sunflower-So Tough ... but the problem with that description is that it excludes actual post-20/20 releases like "Break Away"/"Celebrate the News" and "Cottonfields".

IMO the best way to go next is for two sets: 1972-75 (the Holland-In Concert-Endless Summer era), then the Brian is Back-era (1976-77).  Worth noting that good portions of 15 Big Ones and Love You were actually cut 1973-75 ("Ding Dang", "It's OK", "Night Was So Young", "Back Home" etc.), so that would create a kind of interesting feel on these releases.

Huh, The Night Was So Young? Not that one.

I like those ideas for coverage. It'd probably be necessary if annual digital releases are becoming less stable. Alan expressed interest in doing a "Brian's Back" box semi-recently, which in his mind would cover 15 Big Ones to MIU. The MIU sessions are vast in of themselves and could potentially dilute a deserved focus on the 15BO-LY-AC trilogy, but I'm not sure how else you'd do it with the next phase being the CBS albums. Can't imagine an MIU boxset on its own selling.

I’m certain “Night Was So Young” was documented as having been recorded in 1974 somewhere*, but can’t find a reference online. Certainly it could not have been part of the Love You sessions proper- it has a totally different sonic imprint.

MIU would be included in a 1976-77 release. Not sure what they added in ‘78 if anything, but the core sessions were fall ‘77. By 1978, we’re into the Caribou era- which IMO would be pretty tough to chronicle as a a marketable package. At least “Good Timin” would go on the ‘72-‘75 release.

*was the source Brad Elliot’s 1981 book? I think it might have been.

I just realized somethng, and sorry if this has already come up, I don't follow this thread that closely. But IIRC Howie said that Brian's (or Bruce's?) recollection of how "Marcella" was done impressed him mightily. But "Marcella" was on neither Sunflower nor Surf's Up but on So Tough. So, will this set also include material from that album? Again, I'm not following this thread closely but wait for the big announcement, so it's possible that this was already cleared, but I couldn't find anything related to that question.

Thank you, Rocker.  Never heard of that forum.  Very interesting posts.  Some stuff I had never seen before. -Will

You're welcome! I didn't know that board either. I only came across it by accident when I was doing a picture search.

I believe a good portion (half?) of So Tough was cut in 1971. This box covers the 2021 copyright extension.

That could be the case! Personally I wouldn't have a problem with this set covering Sunflower through So Tough and then have a special single release for the Holland album. That album has a certain cult-status even outside of Beach Boys fans (not unlike Wild Honey), so it would make sense to release a special edition imo. Although I'm not sure if there is enough outtake material etc. from that time.

As the set covers 1969-71, it technically encompasses what you might call "post-20/20" through So Tough. In terms of releases, this would be the "Break Away" single through So Tough. With regard to unreleased material, the "last Capitol album" (Fading Rock Group Revival, Reverberation, etc.) would be the earliest record. As portions of that record ultimately became Sunflower, it's fair to say Sunflower-So Tough ... but the problem with that description is that it excludes actual post-20/20 releases like "Break Away"/"Celebrate the News" and "Cottonfields".

IMO the best way to go next is for two sets: 1972-75 (the Holland-In Concert-Endless Summer era), then the Brian is Back-era (1976-77).  Worth noting that good portions of 15 Big Ones and Love You were actually cut 1973-75 ("Ding Dang", "It's OK", "Night Was So Young", "Back Home" etc.), so that would create a kind of interesting feel on these releases.

I just realized somethng, and sorry if this has already come up, I don't follow this thread that closely. But IIRC Howie said that Brian's (or Bruce's?) recollection of how "Marcella" was done impressed him mightily. But "Marcella" was on neither Sunflower nor Surf's Up but on So Tough. So, will this set also include material from that album? Again, I'm not following this thread closely but wait for the big announcement, so it's possible that this was already cleared, but I couldn't find anything related to that question.

Thank you, Rocker.  Never heard of that forum.  Very interesting posts.  Some stuff I had never seen before. -Will

You're welcome! I didn't know that board either. I only came across it by accident when I was doing a picture search.

I believe a good portion (half?) of So Tough was cut in 1971. This box covers the 2021 copyright extension.

The only positive things I can say are:

1. This makes Bruce look good.
2. People are caring less and less about Trump now, so news like this is fading with a shrug.
3. I don’t think this was an actual booking of “The Beach Boys”.

Probably just Smiley Smile, 20/20, and Surf’s Up as albums.

I don't know the context of Carl's "not capable" remark, and was unfamiliar with it until this thread.  It is pretty much consistent with the overall impression, though, that I gleaned from Carl's various interviews and comments from the late '80s to mid-'90s. Carl loved the music and loved performing for the fans, but at the same time there was also an unmistakable ambivalence about the entire Beach Boys enterprise.  He wasn't seeking super-stardom for the group and wasn't chasing the next hit or trying to compete with anybody.  Let's face it. The man was shouldering more than his share of burdens....  Brian's horrific Landy situation (which ultimately involved courts, lawyers, government agencies, etc.), Dennis' death, an elderly mother, Audree .  Anyone think all that was easy on him?  

Carl was also realistic, maybe too realistic.  Perhaps the most talented pure musician in the group, Carl knew damned well what they had done in their peak period... and how extraordinary that music was and how extraodinarily unlikely anyone, including the BBs themselves, were to reach that plateau again.  I'm a huge fan of Al Jardine, and think he's a thoroughly decent, talented guy, but there's an interview with him from 1994 in which claims that "Under the Boardwalk" on SIP "might be the best thing we've ever done" (that's an exact quote).  I read that at the time, a period when I was first getting into Pet Sounds, Smile, etc., and I thought, "What planet are you living on?  How can a member of a band have such a wrong-headed view of his own band's work?"  Similarly, that was a period when ML was basking in the afterglow of Kokomo and regularly declaring it the best thing the BBs had ever done, etc.     My point is that you never heard this kind of nonsense out of Carl.  He knew that they had done something very special musically that first decade and was under no illusions that they were still operating at that level.

^ YES. I think you and I are really on the same page here, and I also think it's fairly obvious.

I'm not trying to paint Carl as a villain in this- but I do think that he is probably one of the biggest reasons that the Beach Boys didn't make one last, great record. And who are we to say we know better than Carl? Maybe it would not have turned out well.

One also wonders- was this a fear of success too? I personally think Carl probably was fine w Stars & Stripes, Problem Child, etc ... because as you say, he knew no one was going to compare these things to Pet Sounds, or even Holland. But the minute you have a new "Brian is Back" ... you're right back to 15 Big Ones Part II. I really do think that Carl was simply not interested in going there, and probably held Brian to a different standard than Mike and the current Beach Boys. So when he says the Paley stuff is not strong enough- he wasn't comparing it to Summer in Paradise ... he was comparing it to Brian and the group's best work perhaps?

Things to think about anyway.

Maybe Carl's motivations should be looked at from a slightly askew perspective... if Carl did indeed say that "the BBs were not capable at that time of producing artistically relevant content" or whatnot.... maybe that's not a dig on the BBs.  He was right.  They were not.  Not at all, not even close.  What would make anyone think otherwise, by 1995, if they paid attention to their timeline?
On the other hand, that doesn't mean that Brian Wilson was not capable of creating artistically relevant content.... nor Carl Wilson, frankly... but perhaps this was a moment of realism from Carl at this moment, as someone who was better than probably anyone else at understanding the "big picture" of a 35 year old band of 50-somethings and what could possibly be best for all parties.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I take Carl saying that about "the Beach Boys" as including Brian. Like, he was judging "artistic relevancy" by a standard that included widespread mainstream success (radio-friendly, Grammy-worthy), not "hip cult status".

I don't believe ANY of the Beach Boys were looking at "hip cult status" as a goal for the band. For one thing, hip cult status doesn't pay the bills. What's the difference between a straight pop or rock album that sells 200,000 copies and a hip cult status album that sells 200,000 copies? For you guys, the hippest of the hip, it would be "status, man - people won't laugh at me when i walk down the street; they'll gaze in awe and say 'there goes a f---ing genius!'". For a band with a long history of hit records, it wouldn't mean squat. By the 80's, it had been established that, with our without hit records, the Beach Boys would continue to be a big draw as a touring band. I'm always seeing "Kokomo" referred to as a comeback record for the group, but the truth is, they hadn't been away. They were very visible throughout the 80's - the 4th of July concerts, appearing on various tv shows, touring every year, doing the state fairs, etc. Oldies radio was very big in the 80's and 90's, so you were going to hear their music one way or another, it was everywhere.
I don't believe Brian or Carl or Mike were sitting around listening to college radio stations, trying to find out what was hip. We know what Brian was listening to: Be My Baby.
Artistically expressive? I'm sure Carl felt the Beckley/Lamm/Wilson was artistically expressive. It gave him a chance to deal with some mature themes in his music. Those guys weren't trying to write about "love gained and lost between the ages of 15 and 25". The production style or even the songwriting style may not have appealed to a hip audience, but listen to the words on songs like "I Wish For You", "They're Only Words" or "Like A Brother". That's writing coming from life's experiences.

Well it's short-sighted, isn't it? The idea is not chasing some hip-cult status (and I would argue that's exactly what Bruce had in mind with the Sean O'Hagen deal by the way).

I think maybe you're on a tangent that is conflating my points with something else. I'm really talking about the facts here ("proof is in the pudding")- The Beach Boys (including Carl) signed off on and supported records like Still Cruisin', "Problem Child", Summer in Paradise, Stars & Stripes, Status Quo remake, Full House, Home Improvement etc. etc etc ... while at the same time- Brian Wilson was making very "Brian Wilson"-sounding music and this was ultimately not supported to completion by the group- with particularly notable stories surrounding Carl's lack of support.

I'm certainly not indicating that the group was thinking about "hip cred" and that should have been their focus. Several of us are simply pointing out that there was an absolute brew of newfound respect and admiration growing at this time for Brian Wilson and the Beach Boys are legitimate artists. This was among the kind of hip/underground "alternative" scene of the '90s.

No one is saying the group should have catered to this scene (though clearly, they were aware of it to some degree w/ Sean O'Hagen etc.). What I am saying is had they supported Brian Wilson as a leader, it's quite possible (even likely IMO) that the resulting work would have been critically appraised in it's time, and I believe would have been significantly more commercially successful as a result of the "buzz". What I think is probably indisputably true is that the Paley material has aged well, and everything the group actually did release has not. And it's not a case of hindsight being 20/20- those of use who were there at the time knew what was going on, even as a teenager in my case. I read about the Paley stuff as early as maybe 1997(?)- Dominique Priore was raving about it- and finally heard in around 1999. I thought Imagination was terrible and was so disappointed. Stars & Stripes was an absolute joke.

And I think we are kidding ourselves if we don't accept that there seems to be a lot to suggest the reason for these things playing out as they did had a lot to do with Carl. My personal take is not that he was driving the bad stuff- but by this time, he probably considered the Beach Boys to be a commercial enterprise, not an artistic one. And the commercial decisions made were done so with regard to short-tern, tried and true formulas which were out of date by the time the group did it.

... what if this "samples" release *is* the copyright dump release? i.e., only the samples ... which if I understand correctly, would protect the copyrights.

^ I'm starting to think this is in fact, what happened here.

I'm gonna vote blowing the reunion album in '95.

All the stars were aligned: Brian was functional, willing, and had great material in the waiting from the Paley sessions: they had A-list record companies and producers with sympathetic aims ready to back the project; and the marketplace had come around to the point where a neo-retro Beach Boys album full of quirky BW originals would have had a warm reception.

This was just a head-slapping missed opportunity and I seem to recall Bruce being unusually blunt (even for him) and frustrated about it at the time.

That's one of the top entries on the list, for sure. I don't know if fans who were too young or just not invested at that specific time would understand how much of a buzz there was from roughly 1993-1996 around this band, and more specific to Brian's re-emergence after ties were cut with Landy, and that included his unreleased work from the 60's.

The buzz was in the right places and with the right people. You would pick up any number of more underground leaning music publications or 'zines and you'd see references being dropped about Brian, Smile, the band in general, etc. And it was not what the touring Beach Boys were doing at that time generating the buzz - Hell, they were still touring with cheerleaders and Hula girls at that time and trying to recapture Kokomo's fluke success. Rather it was like a rediscovery or just a plain old discovery of how great some of this music truly was, both the widely known hits and the bootleg material which started to become more available thanks to more available silverdisc CDR technology and releases that didn't exist in the years prior. Tom Petty was quoted in an interview at the time saying how he drives his family crazy listening to Pet Sounds bootlegs. Billy Corgan was quoted as saying he took inspiration from Smile bootlegs to work on his own ideas with a modular track he was working up. Rivers Cuomo was using production and arranging techniques on that first Weezer "Blue Album" that sounded like he was listening to a lot of Brian's PS and Smile material...and it turned out he was indeed a big fan of BW. Todd Rundgren was reported as being involved in an interactive CD-ROM for the Smile material. Don Was came onboard and was literally all-in with Brian and wanting to bring in the Beach Boys to join the creativity. The band with all surviving members was on Letterman singing the top-ten list, and the crowd went nuts for them. As you said above, major labels, one in particular, came calling when the Beach Boys previously couldn't beg borrow or steal *any* interest from the labels in the 90's.

So what all happened...it literally blew up to where barely any of those traces of "street cred" and industry buzz courtesy of the right people chiming in made it to the public.

Carl nixed new material. The band was invited to hear new tracks Brian was working on, and they literally blew him off and didn't show. Mike seemed into it originally, and was actively writing with Brian again, but then all of that reverted back to dancing girls on stage and doing a horrible rap song featuring Mike basically singing about himself and playing word games with his name on Baywatch...as the newly reunited Beach Boys stood on the beach with Brian wearing black clothes and Chucks watching Stamos play electronic drums in the sand as Mike mugged for the camera. None of the new material was followed through. Rather, Mike went country and thought playing Nashville fan fair events was the way to go. It wasn't. Bruce for one suggested outside producers, along with Carl...none of it worked out. Mike offended one one of them right out of the gate with an off-the-cuff comment.

Blame goes all around, of course. But it's also worth remembering how all of these gaffes and blown opportunities led Brian on a path to the musicians that would surround him for the next 20+ years and led directly to the Smile tour which is still one of the greatest musical accomplishments and tours fans will ever see.

Okay, if the Beach Boys were suddenly hip again in that time period, why didn't that translate into strong albums sales for I Just Wasn't Made For These Times and Orange Crate Art? I mean, if we're talking popular in an alternative rock way, an artsy Brian Wilson way, as opposed to a commercial sell out Mike Love way, then those two albums should have attracted the young, hip people who dug the uncommercial side of the Beach Boys.

As a "hip teenager" in 1995, I can answer this question definitively - because Orange Crate Art and IJWMFTT sounded like Adult Contemporary music. I played Love You and Holland and Smiley Smile for my friends, and they all thought it was ultra cool. The Paley tracks - as produced by Brian and Andy, without potential fiddling with by anyone else like Was, Joe Thomas, etc. - would have been a hip record, 100%. No doubts in my mind at all. But subtlety matters. Brian Wilson is a producer with a rare gift ... water it down by letting others get their hands in the mix, and it doesn't hit it.

In fact, I actually listed IJWMFTT as one of the top 10 records of 1995 in my high school paper - along with an array of alternative/underground-ish records. I believe I wrote: "Even though the record is presented in a sort of Adult Contemporary production, Brian Wilson's songwriting still shines ..." or something.

If you really want to delve into what was going on with Brian at this time in the 90's, there are so many more facets to it than what's been made public, and maybe it's not the right place or time to get into more of those details. But for those who have read deep into this era, there have been glimpses of what else was happening via at least one published article and other things that have gotten out.

I'll just say there was more going on between Brian and Carl in a familial sense than what some in this discussion are putting on the table, and leave it at that. There were tensions that seemingly went back a long time in the history and it seemed to bubble up again, and perhaps stronger, during this era. It's an aspect of the story that may come out in more detail if and when it's decided to explore it more, but not for the current time I guess.

One thing to consider: Brian had just gotten out of an experience with a certifiably wacko doctor who nearly killed him, tried to take the money he had earned, and tried to control every part of his personal, professional, and everyday life. According to Don Was and others who were around him, once the papers were signed and Brian was free to do what he pleased, he said he wanted to get back to making music with the Beach Boys. That's on the record, and not the first time Brian would say this same thing through the years.

Go back to 94-95-96 etc, and find reports of what he was doing with music. Has anyone who was far more involved personally and musically with Brian during this time than Carl reported anything negative when it came to actually making the music? Absolutely not. In fact it was quite the opposite. Even Mike Love was on board and collaborating with Brian one on one in a way they had not done in a long time. Was had assembled a team of session players to see these songs through, Paley was collaborating with Brian and Was and cranking out literally dozens of new songs, Mike was with Brian working on lyrics and reuniting the old Wilson-Love "team" Mike always says he wants to do, and the whole machine was running.

So what happened after all of this activity? It seemed like the main negative vote against most of it was from Carl. And those episodes where Brian invited the band to come hear his new music and they blew him off just add even more bad feelings to the whole scene.

If the implication is that Brian wasn't up for it, whether personally, psychologically, musically, or otherwise, I'd ask if there are any reports of this from those who were actually making the music hands-on personally with Brian. Unless they're just bullshitting everyone, those who were in the studio and writing with him day to day seem to have far more positive reports of it than Carl, or the notion that Carl was worried about Brian's state at the time and putting the kibosh on it out of concern for Brian. It certainly didn't seem to affect him creating music and those around him didn't seem to have the same experience because they were literally cranking out new songs where even Mike was involved in writing.

Again, without going too far into it, I'd suggest there were deeper issues at play between Carl and Brian that may have been more a factor than Carl seeing Brian's state and being concerned as a justification for all of his "no" votes regarding the music and other activities. No matter what one's opinion is of the music itself, and many think there are some gems among the dozens of new songs these guys were writing and recording, the fact is Brian was working with people he trusted and who supported him, and he was doing what he wanted to do, including writing music for the Beach Boys and doing so with his cousin. And Carl seemed to be the main dissenting voice. I don't believe that dissent was coming from brotherly love, but we'll leave it at that.

And also consider how anyone would react after going through what Brian had been through for the past decade or more and suddenly seeing a wide open path to do whatever he wanted to do. The transition for anyone suddenly leaving a day-to-day life you've led for over 10 years, whether it be in the military, a certain career, incarceration, etc is not an easy one. Then factor in the medications, the quack psychology and control Landy had in place...it's like entering a new world. If Brian picked up smoking again, if he wasn't acting like some would think he should...look at what the guy had just gotten out of after a decade-plus of Landy's bullshit. Yet he could still make music, and he was doing just that at this time with people around him supporting him and making it happen.

My own personal opinion (based on various anecdotes I've read over the years) is that Carl was not interested in the artistry of the Beach Boys at this time. The Beach Boys were primarily a commercial entity by the '90s, and Brian has always been an artist at heart. All we need to look at are the things that the commercial entity known as The Beach Boys did release during this time - Summer in Paradise, Stars & Stripes, etc - and Carl was on board with these things. Then look at the things that failed- the Paley tracks, the Baywatch theme, the Sean O'Hagen situation. We know people like Bruce and Mike even seemed to be enthusiastic to some of these things, as you say. I don't believe Al had much of a strong voice in any particular direction honestly.

That really does leave Carl. I'm sure it was more complex than meets the eye. I personally think that it was a combination of things- Carl certainly had more commercial AOR tastes from the '80s on; that is evident in his solo material and side projects. Carl also is quoted by Sean O'Hagen as telling him that the Beach Boys were not capable of generating artistically significant material at that point (I'm paraphrasing because I cannot find this story anywhere online- it was there many years ago). And finally, we should recall that Carl and Dennis were at odds with the 15 Big Ones-era "Brian is back" charade. Of course Carl respected his brother, and supported the completion of Love You. But it's telling that Carl's final kick in the pants to the group - leaving in 1981 - resulted in IMO very MOR records. I think the elephant in the room is that Carl was not particularly sensitive to Brian's musical artistry post-'70s. I don't think we can rule out Carl not wanting to "embarrass" the group and/or Brian by releasing records that had more in common with Love You than anything else the group had released.

The proof is in the pudding- "Soul Searchin'", "Baywatch Nights", "Still a Mystery", etc. sat in the vaults while "Stars & Stripes" were released. And while I would place the blame mostly on what you might call "The Beach Boys Machine"- I don't think this is something we can blame Mike Love for.

Dennis does a similar “interview crash” around 7:55 here:

https://youtu.be/dbQZkKzV4O0

Being of the opinion that Dennis’ PRIMARY motivation is simply to show off his son doesn’t mean one is ignoring subtext or being willfully ignorant to the tensions around the band.

It just means that sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. I think Mike is definitely thinking, “here comes Dennis, carrying a baby, hope he doesn’t do anything weird”. But that doesn’t mean Dennis is trying to use his son to bait Mike and make an uncomfortable scene and that Mike is afraid of being “exposed” on camera.

But I'm sure you can imagine that Mike had to know that it was not just "a baby", but Dennis' newborn son who also happened to be Mike's grandson. And if Mike did not know that, and merely assumed it was just a random baby, he'd have to be pretty dense, plus he would find out literally seconds later when Dennis introduced Gage as his son.

I do agree that sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, but I don't think this is one of those times.

Also, I don't think Dennis was trying to "bait" Mike into anything. It's more just to make Mike squirm a bit deep down. I don't think Dennis is trying to get Mike to step away awkwardly or do anything weird. All it is, IMO, is spur of the moment not-so-subtle passive aggression at its finest. A sneak attack subliminal uppercut to Cassius Love by Sonny Wilson's brother.

Haven't you ever had weird situations or tensions within your family in the past? I certainly have. While the subtext is usually somewhere lurking in the background, you can still have normal interactions. If you had a situation where a sibling or cousin had stolen money from you, and you were together with family for Thanksgiving and asked them, "can I borrow your salt shaker?" ... and someone were filming- is there hidden meaning in the comment? Or are you simply asking for salt?

I'm not saying I know everything that is going on in the video. And yes it's interesting. But from everything I know about Dennis, I think he just wanted to show off his son and was behaving as he normally seemed to. Which was yes, a bit erratic. And Mike was uncomfortable because Dennis was erratic on camera with a child. That is all, IMO.

Here is the dialog from when Dennis entered the shot:

Dennis: "How you guys doin'?"

Interviewer: "Hello, Dennis."

Mike: "Hi Dennis."

Dennis: "Hi. What's goin' on?"

Mike: "A little interview with Entertainment Tonight."

Dennis: "Good. Here we go. [holds up Gage, who is sleeping]. Sweet baby Gage."

Interviewer: "What's his name?"

Dennis: "Sweet Baby Gage."

Mike: "Gage."

Dennis: "Gage Dennis Wilson. [touches Mike's shoulder] I just wanted to show him on TV."

Mike: "Good."

Interviewer: "Hey, hold him up. Hold him up for the camera."

Dennis: "No that's fine, that's fine" [remember Gage is sleeping].

Yes, the situation surrounding the two is weird, and clearly there is tension. But to me, this seems like an innocent event. I think it's the Steven Gaines book that is the only place that suggests all this kind of stuff about Dennis getting back at Mike, etc.

... but I'm not sure all of that stuff is really as legit as Dennis being a proud father here. Just one man's opinion. When a child is born, all of those types of things melt by the wayside. I see Dennis as a proud father in this clip. I don't see anything else that is weird.

Shame they didn't let us hear what Dennis had to say there, Donny! Also a shame they felt the need to dub in the studio recordings over the live concert footage on most of this, instead of letting us hear the band for real.

Yes, it's a weird clip ha. But to me, Dennis walks up to Al in a similar way as he did to Mike in the other clip ... IMO suggesting Dennis was just kinda being himself.

Dennis does a similar “interview crash” around 7:55 here:

https://youtu.be/dbQZkKzV4O0

Being of the opinion that Dennis’ PRIMARY motivation is simply to show off his son doesn’t mean one is ignoring subtext or being willfully ignorant to the tensions around the band.

It just means that sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. I think Mike is definitely thinking, “here comes Dennis, carrying a baby, hope he doesn’t do anything weird”. But that doesn’t mean Dennis is trying to use his son to bait Mike and make an uncomfortable scene and that Mike is afraid of being “exposed” on camera.