I don't think he was necessarily singling you out, rather just responding to you AND others at the same time. At least that's how I took it...could be wrong, and if I am, I apologize in advance.

No. That was right on the money

It gets him press in "Rolling Stone" to have all these people on his album. I'm not even sure it gets him press anywhere else.  It might get him more plays on Spotify. Where he'll get fractions of pennies for each play. I wonder if anyone has ever sat down and explained to him that hit records don't exactly exist anymore. Very few people buy downloads on iTunes and Amazon anymore, even fewer buy CD's, and fewer still buy vinyl. He doesn't create a type of music that's likely to get played on terrestrial radio even if it has some type of appeal, because he doesn't fit in the formats that are hot. This may be his last album simply from that standpoint alone. It's not worth spending all that money on an album that has little or no chance of breaking even financially. I doubt Capitol will ever fund a year and a half of off and on studio work again.

How do you know that Capitol funded it?

That being said, I'm sure the record company pushed the duets. They want to have a big, splashy BW album to coincide with the biopic and new book. It will get him some extra late night bookings, too.

It actually makes quite a bit of sense for an artist of his vintage.

I could be wrong, but I still have the nagging feeling that Brian would really rather just make a stripped down (for him) little rock n roll album without much fuss.

In the rolling stone article in mentions a fall release. That's exciting!

It mentions Zooey, Frank Ocean, Lana Del Rey, Kacey Musgraves, Jeff Beck, Nate Reuss from Fun and Don Was all makes appearances.

The last track apparently titled "Last Song" is said to be his last song which Lana Del Rey sings on.

Count me another one puzzled by the sudden obsession with Deschanel on this thread.

Jeff Beck excepted, not sure why Brian suddenly needs/ wants all these 'guests' on the new album. Yeah, he's written loads of songs for singers other than himself over the years, but at this stage in his career, for one I want to hear Brian sing, especially as his voice has improved a lot over the last 10 years. I'd understand bringing in other singers more if his voice/ health had deteriorated but he still wanted to carry on working. The only other lead singer I want to hear on a new BW-led album is Al Jardine in particular or any of the other living Beach Boys.

I doubt these 'guests' will shift many more copies for him. After all, Al's album had real luminaries like Glen Campbell, Neil Young, Steve Miller and the Beach Boys themselves and that was hardly a smash in commercial terms. One 'guest duet' I could handle, but this looks in danger of being a 'BW duets with mostly disposable young singers' album. In years to come, how many of these names will even be remembered particularly? This may 'date' the album more than recent others imo.

Will reserve judgement until I hear the record and hope that it's good and that he's able to make a more 'Brian-centric' album in the future.

WTF???

If someone posts a 10 second clip of a Brian and Lana Del Rey track: I promise you, the "obsession" would suddenly be on her. No genius level math involved here.

The Frank Ocean thing puzzles me.... However, if it were Billy Ocean, I'd be excited )

I find the almost singular obsession with Deschanel's participation interesting. Even if we're sticking to younger collaborators (as opposed to Beck, Was, ex-Beach Boys), we've got kacey Musgraves, Lana Del Rey, Frank Ocean, the guy from Fun. (Name escapes me ).

No opinions on that? Just all Zooey, all the time. For people interested in questioning credibility (and I'm not), Del Rey can't even play an instrument, yet it's Zooeys shortcomings?

Just funny, I guess. Ocean seems like the strangest fit BY FAR to me, and all of them are interesting for one reason or another.

Can't you guys just be ok with people discussing things and maybe us not all being on the same page? Zooey's being zeroed in on only because someone posted that recording snippet.... And get ready for when the damn thing is released! With such a roll call of disparate characters, there will doubtlessly be many such attempts at discussion/dissection. If we're just going to shut down and rage at those who drift away from the party-line, that spells little fun for anyone.

John Cale: Fragments Of A Rainy Season

A favourite of mine too, and it reminds me that solo performer, or duo,  live albums usually work really well. The intimacy translates very well and the sound is uncomplicated, there's less that can go wrong. Jake Thackray, Randy Newman, Dory Previn, Flanders and Swann, and Pete Seeger come to mind. Not much ROCK in that list admittedly but Cale manages to make a decent racket on his own for parts of "Fragments....".

My favourite full band (orchestra, actually) live albums are the Jacques Brel live at the Olympia albums '61 and '64, especially the modern day extended versions. Talking of Paris, I always liked the Cure's "Paris"- loaded with deep cuts and with side one of the cassette full of dark and the other half full of light.

Agreed!

"Friday Night In San Francisco" the John McLaughlin, Al Dimeola, Paco DeLucia thing is fantastic as well for the reasons you described.

GuitarFool, Pinder enjoys squabbling. It's the only reason he's here. So just deny him the pleasure.

No. It's just not cool that it's ok to disagree with some folks and with others it's hell to pay. It's not cool that some folk can disagree with you and trash your opinion, but merely disagreeing with them is a high crime.

[Grammy® Winner and Rock and Roll Hall of Fame Member, Michael Edward Love, grew up under the Southern California sun where he soaked up a life of music, surf, sand and sport. Beginning their singing careers as teenagers, Mike and his cousin, Brian Wilson, frequently sang at family get-togethers and holiday gatherings. These early influences served as the inspiration to form the legendary group, The Beach Boys, which first consisted of Mike and his cousins, Brian, Dennis, and Carl Wilson along with neighbor David Marks and High School friend Alan Jardine.]

I'll put in my quarter and play for now.

So discrediting Zooey's musical "cred" or legitimacy as a musician and songwriter was a failure, so now the tactic is to discredit the Grammy award in general?

That is silly and pointless. Well, actually it's more of a grasping at straws kind of thing to still try to show Zooey is somehow less than "worthy" or whatever the case trying to be made around her appearing on a Brian Wilson song, but same difference. Her songwriting got nominated for a Grammy...but the Grammys don't mean anything so it's still a case of bashing Zooey by trying to discredit the award(s) she was nominated for. I get it.  

No matter what the opinion of the Grammys is or might be, are many musicians refusing either their nominations or their award in general, even in 2014? Are there many musicians winning and sending the award back because it's meaningless?

Ask Alan Boyd and Mark Linett how they feel about their Grammy awards. Then tell them directly how you think winning the award doesn't mean anything in the music business, even beyond the nomination itself.

Go to the official Mike Love website, click on the "About" icon, and read his bio. Or, just read it as I repost it here. Notice  the *FIRST ITEM LISTED* on that official Mike Love bio:

Grammy® Winner and Rock and Roll Hall of Fame Member, Michael Edward Love, grew up under the Southern California sun where he soaked up a life of music, surf, sand and sport. Beginning their singing careers as teenagers, Mike and his cousin, Brian Wilson, frequently sang at family get-togethers and holiday gatherings. These early influences served as the inspiration to form the legendary group, The Beach Boys, which first consisted of Mike and his cousins, Brian, Dennis, and Carl Wilson along with neighbor David Marks and High School friend Alan Jardine.

I guess it doesn't mean anything to Mike or his legacy to have a Grammy award either, right?  

Damn, that was my last quarter.

Once again: I was not trying to discredit Zooey but merely describing the way some folk tend to try and discredit her off hand, much like they do with Stamos. And I am free to feel however I want about the Grammies.... Please tune in each year. The ratings could use you.

And we weren't talking about Mike Love anyway.... Not like anyone tries to discredit him around here, or anything like that .... No never!

2. Zooey is an actress, and a singer

And a songwriter.

And a Grammy-nominated songwriter too. See the previous page for more details on that.  

I think we can pretty much slam the door shut on the bizarre suggestion that Zooey is somehow less than a "real" musician, or somehow is reaping the benefits of something she didn't earn or work for or have the talent to succeed in doing. Things like recording albums, performing, touring, writing songs, being nominated for awards for those songs...all of that stuff "real" musicians aspire to.

Liking or disliking her music is one thing...trying to discredit her qualifications or "cred" as a musician is approaching batshit crazy levels at this point considering the info that's been posted here.

Plus, she's cheap.  $12/hour, $2/hour extra if any of the kids are under 3yrs.

The grammies are even less relevant than both The Rock N Roll Hall Of Fame and Rolling Stone put together.

No matter what accomplishments any "real" musician has achieved, the buying public still has the right to dislike them and to not buy their stuff ...... And disliking someone and not wanting to buy their stuff usually comes with reasons. If having an opinion makes one batshit crazy, then please hand me my straightjacket! ..... You can't just invalidate these reasons because they've won a grammy.... Would it make sense for me to sit here and invalidate everyone for not liking Pisces Brothers just because Mike's won grammies? No, it wouldn't.... Generally with the Grammys, it's the major label, big money versions of more authentic things that are awarded the statue. And Zooey certainly fits into that category.... Just like when Bon Ivar got up there and dedicated his award to all those folks who would never receive such an honor because they hadn't been propped up by the suits and ponytails of the dying record biz nor had their CD's sold in Starbucks n such. The Grammies are just the music big league's award show celebrating itself ..... Who cares.... Most musicians couldn't care less about the Grammys these days, nor does anyone watch them.

I don't dislike Zooey completely, but I've never heard anything from She & Him that struck my fancy, so my opinion is a bit slanted, I admit it. But I'm only human.

The actor turned singer thing can be a real stigma. No need to deny it ..... My 2nd favorite singer of all time (behind Carl) is Ricky Nelson, who certainly got some flack early on as a TV character pretending to be a singer, but he persevered and managed to basically overcome it .... I mean, c'mon, how many of us blast Stamos first and foremost because of Full House? Let's try and have some levity here.

2. Zooey is an actress, and a singer

And a songwriter.

And a Grammy-nominated songwriter too. See the previous page for more details on that.  

I think we can pretty much slam the door shut on the bizarre suggestion that Zooey is somehow less than a "real" musician, or somehow is reaping the benefits of something she didn't earn or work for or have the talent to succeed in doing. Things like recording albums, performing, touring, writing songs, being nominated for awards for those songs...all of that stuff "real" musicians aspire to.

Liking or disliking her music is one thing...trying to discredit her qualifications or "cred" as a musician is approaching batshit crazy levels at this point considering the info that's been posted here.

I, for one, was not trying to discredit Zooey as you describe. I was merely explaining something that people tend to do. There's a difference between talking about something and doing something.... It ain't rocket science or even algebra.

And does anyone really care about The Grammies? I mean, what decade were they last relevant.

Brian didn't even know who Zooey was in 1994.  

Are you sure you want to stand by that, Ron? Seriously?  

I'll assume you made a typo on the date because in 1994, Zooey was 14 years old, and her first recognizable acting role was playing what amounts to a bit part in "Almost Famous". She only became a recognized name in 2002-03.

If you really meant 1994, then I wouldn't expect Brian Wilson or anyone else outside her friends and family to know a girl in 8th or 9th grade whose acting breaks wouldn't come until the next decade.

And no matter what the date, what does it have to do with the song in 2014?

If someone just doesn't like Zooey's voice, that's fair enough, but otherwise: none of the criticism is fair but it's a fact of life for anyone who is introduced to the world via one art-form or whatever and then branches out into something else. Especially if this person is either looked at as either highly indie or mainstream. There are still people who insists that Frank Sinatra was a crap actor, as one example.... Zooey's rubbed some folk the wrong way by being presented (as silly as it may be) as this hipster/indie darling and then doing iPhone commercials, shite films like "The Happening" and then starring in a sit-com. And unfortunately her music's been written off in some circles as a vanity project ala Scarlett Johannson's Pete Yorn thing (which might be great for all I know) ... I know a certain segment of hardcore M. Ward fans (!) have talked plenty of smack about it as well.... What does this have to do with how good she is or isn't on Brian's song? Nothing. However, perception has undeniable power in music and entertainment ...... If Stamos hadn't been on Full House, I don't think anyone would bother caring if a particularly handsome (sort of) musician got onstage at Bruce Boys shows and played drums and sang Forever on occasion. They might hate him because he's playing those idiotic electronic drums in the Summer Of Love video, but that would be worthy criticism at least...... It's human nature to put people into the boxes we come to know them in... I had a hell of a time going from a drummer to a guitar player and singer. Everyone was like "What the F are you doing? You're a drummer"

I think Zooey sounds fine on the 10 second snippit. And if she's OK by Brian, then that's all there is to it.

NOTE...... this message is free to be ignored .......

  I tried to ignore it, but having already read it, that now seems impossible....

well, I guess it would only work if you'd started reading from the bottom up ;P

From now on I'll put the disclaimer up top!

Brian didn't even know who Zooey was in 1994.  

Are you sure you want to stand by that, Ron? Seriously?  

I'll assume you made a typo on the date because in 1994, Zooey was 14 years old, and her first recognizable acting role was playing what amounts to a bit part in "Almost Famous". She only became a recognized name in 2002-03.

If you really meant 1994, then I wouldn't expect Brian Wilson or anyone else outside her friends and family to know a girl in 8th or 9th grade whose acting breaks wouldn't come until the next decade.

And no matter what the date, what does it have to do with the song in 2014?

If someone just doesn't like Zooey's voice, that's fair enough, but otherwise: none of the criticism is fair but it's a fact of life for anyone who is introduced to the world via one art-form or whatever and then branches out into something else. Especially if this person is looked at as either highly indie or mainstream. There are still people who insist that Frank Sinatra was a crap actor, as one example.... Zooey's rubbed some folk the wrong way by being presented (as silly as it may be) as this hipster/indie darling and then doing iPhone commercials, shite films like "The Happening" and then starring in a sit-com. And unfortunately her music's been written off in some circles as a vanity project ala Scarlett Johannson's Pete Yorn thing (which might be great for all I know) ... I know a certain segment of hardcore M. Ward fans (!) have talked plenty of smack about it as well.... What does this have to do with how good she is or isn't on Brian's song? Nothing. However, perception has undeniable power in music and entertainment ...... If Stamos hadn't been on Full House, I don't think anyone would bother caring if a particularly handsome (sort of) musician got onstage at Bruce Boys shows and played drums and sang Forever on occasion. They might hate him because he's playing those idiotic electronic drums in the Summer Of Love video, but that would be worthy criticism at least...... It's human nature to want to keep people in the boxes w've come to know them in... I had a hell of a time going from a drummer to a guitar player and singer. Everyone was like "What the F are you doing? You're a drummer"

I think Zooey sounds fine on the 10 second snippit. And if she's OK by Brian, then that's all there is to it.

NOTE...... this message is free to be ignored .......

I don't think that's at all fair to say. Maybe you have a solid point if you amend the statement to say that Writing music is just a hobby..., but the man has been professionally involved in music for more than half a century. I think it's safe to say music is more than a hobby for him. Writing isn't the only valid musical endeavor.

Bruce has gone on record stating that playing with the Beach Boys is nothing more than a job to him, and has stated so several times (most notably in the Peter Ames Carlin book).

I love it, but agree it was unnecessary.

The original is quite great though. What a mean rhythm track. Fat, pounding piano/bass .... Bruce and Brian are the one's credited with playing piano/organ, so whatever Bruce is doing on the track is awesome.

What a great Brian lead vocal too. In fact, I can only really hear him on the backing vocals as well.

In Lana's defense, she does have mental/emotional 'issues' as well, so gotta take some of that with a bit of a sideways glance.

Lana's at least doing her own thing, like it or not. She's not out there trying to out vocal gymnastic Adel like so many other female singers, nor is she doing the cute indie chanteuse thing like Zooey. Nothing wrong with any of that, but I'd rather see someone allegedly sucking at doing their own, whacked out personal thing, than being merely passable at something more easily digestible.

Zooey's qualifications:









That looks like a music career to me.

True, but there will always be that nagging possibility/idea that she was only handed a musical career because she was a known quantity as an actress. Much like several TV or movie stars who decided they wanted to become recording artists..... She's certainly not any better than singers with similar voices who weren't gifted that route

Brian's solo Live at the Roxy is my favorite Beach Boys related live album.  Some nice rarities in the setlist, nowhere else except for on bootleg can you hear live renditions of songs like Please Let Me Wonder, The Little Girl I Once Knew, Back Home, Kiss Me Baby, This Whole World, and Til I Die.

I love the Roxy album! Just something about that material being performed in such a small place that creates a lovely sort of feeling.

[Closing Time]

Kokomo is in that rare camp amongst songs like Who Let The Dogs Out, Tubthumping, Closing Time, and countless other one hit wonder 90's bands who's songs were fortunate enough to be get into rotation on MTV or the radio, and just drilled themselves deep into people's hearts and minds with such tenacity that the only logical human reaction after a point was to revolt ....... but then someone would say "But when it comes down to it, it REALLY is a good little tune" ....... Well, other than Who Let The Dogs Out.

Semisonic had at least one other hit beyond "Closing Time," with "Singing In My Sleep" reaching #11 in the U.S. in 1998. You'll likely recall the refrain (if you were listening to music in those days--I don't know how old you are).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhS3YP04Fjk&feature=kp

And Dan Wilson, their primary songwriter, of course has quite a few more hits: Adele, Dixie Chicks, etc. So he's hardly a one-hit wonder.

(Sorry, I'm sensitive about my hometown guys. Oh, except that I mocked Prince a few posts ago...)

Hey! No apology necessary THE BEACH BOYS are my hometown band, so I fully understand the whole sensitive thing all too well.

Have you read the book Semisonic's drummer wrote: "So You Wanna Be A Rock N Roll Star"? ..... If not, do so ASAP!!!!

David Live is pretty great to, I think.

Check out the alternate Madison Square Garden that was released late 90's. The energy seems to be quite a bit better than the previously released one. I have a special weakness for insane, karate Elvis, so hey.

You're right, the live disc of the Back In Memphis kicks ass!

[everywhere.]

 One of the things I like about "Kokomo" is that it was a slow-starting, from left field sort of hit. The single was released July 18 1988 but did not enter the Billboard Hot 100 until Sept 3 1988. It was definitely bubbling under for a bit until it broke out.

  I recall seeing The Beach Boys at the Ohio State Fair sometime that August. My buddy and I both thought Bruce's intro ("It was just added to WNCI's playlist last week" etc) seemed a bit desperate. We never figured we were hearing a future Number One hit, even though we both agreed it was a decent effort.

 Sometime around October I started hearing the tune and seeing the video everywhere. It was a pleasant surprise, although I shared Brian's likely chagrin as his first solo LP stalled at #54 around the same time!

My personal theory with Kokomo is that, for the first bit, it's totally annoying and you really just keep listening in order to have fun hating it. Mike's almost daring you to keep hating it, then the drums kick in and the catchy factor ups a notch but the hate remains. But then Carl comes blasting in and all is forgiven ....... Then when the next verse and pre-chorus come along you kinda start digging them because you know Carl will be coming back ..... Then the sax comes in and it's like HOW CHEESEBALL ARE THEY WILLING TO MAKE THIS? ..... BUT you still know Carl's likely coming along again, so you bear with it ..... This is the case basically forevermore when you hear it.... Classic tension/release thing. Makes for a hit.

Worth noting: though the drums are apparently all programmed drums, it was Jim Keltner's work, so the bed track has tremendous feel.

The Doors - Live at the Hollywood Bowl '68
AC/DC - Live at Donnington (I know, it's not an album - but nearly 20 minutes of 'Let There Be Rock' makes me put this concert on once a year).

"Who Made Who" on Donnington kicks ass all over the album version, in my book!

Doors: Absolutely Live is great too, for quite different reasons than Hollywood Bowl!

Alive She Cried is also fab!

I've always contended that "Kokomo" is a really catchy song. For some "hardcore" BB fans, Mike's touting of the song has become problematic.

But more than that, the song has suffered from simply being overexposed, especially back then. It was good (in some ways) for the band back then, getting exposure on MTV and whatnot. But the nature of the song is such that, for some, it grates when overplayed. I will grant it hasn't been really "overexposed" since 1989 or so. But that overexposure has, more than anything else, been what has stuck with "non-hardcore fans" that I've talked to. I've heard many a "casual fan" say that the song is good, but they got "sick of it."

Oh, how Brian and hiswifeandmanagers would love to have this "problem"....

I would guess they don't lose sleep over that. Brian presumably collects more in songwriting royalties than Mike does, considering there are numerous BB hits without Mike's songwriting and pretty much one without Brian's (excepting things like some international hits that were covers, etc.).

Not only that, but it may well be that some if not most of the "Wilson/Love" songs do not have a 50/50 split. In some cases, it may well be that Brian is credited with 100% of the music and some percent of the lyrics as well. I have a super vague recollection of someone, perhaps even Mike, speaking to this an interview years ago. The sheet music or ASCAP/BMI databases don't tell us what the actual split is in terms of royalties.

On something like "Good Vibrations", it may well be a 75/25 split or something like that.

I wasn't referring to the financial aspect. I meant writing/recording/releasing a song that is actually overexposed, overplayed, and getting played on MTV (or any video channel). Who knows, maybe Brian & Zooey's "Island Fever" will do the trick.

The landscape of the industry is too different. I also think Brian got plenty of the 60s equivalent of "Kokomo's" exposure with his numerous hits.

My original point with "Kokomo" had nothing to do with any type of exposure so much as the public's perception. Overexposure isn't always good career wise or reputation wise.

Don't know if there are any Brian Wilson songs that people just love to hate!

Kokomo is in that rare camp amongst songs like Who Let The Dogs Out, Tubthumping, Closing Time, and countless other one hit wonder 90's bands who's songs were fortunate enough to be get into rotation on MTV or the radio, and just drilled themselves deep into people's hearts and minds with such tenacity that the only logical human reaction after a point was to revolt ....... but then someone would say "But when it comes down to it, it REALLY is a good little tune" ....... Well, other than Who Let The Dogs Out.

I've seen that Jerry Lee record many times! I will snag it ASAP!

Tricky thing with Zappa is they several albums were recorded live or contained some live performances but don't scream out "Live album"

Does Running On Empty count? Most of it was recorded at live shows or at soundcheck!

Circa 1989, Music from the Elder was one of my favorite albums ever. Yikes. But I am an unabashed KISS fan, in a way. Meaning I fully understand what they were (and weren't), but they were hugely important to me and to rock n roll in the same kind of way the far better received Ramones were. Big dumb catchy pop (hard-)rock. Perfect for adolescent boys.

I usually use Cheap Trick as a gateway drug for non KISS fans ..... Both bands are very similar: just great, straight ahead and loose rock n roll with great tunes. I've known a lot of people who love Cheap Trick and hate KISS, so it most usually works.

OK, here are some live albums that I think suck:

Creedence: Live In Europe (just not the same without Doug)

You mean Tom.

I'd nominate "Frampton Comes Alive" and Humble Pie "Rockin the Fillmore".

Oops! Yes, Tom! Thank you!

Rockin The Filmore is awesome! There was this Steve Marriot live CD I found way back when from, I think, 1984 that was absolutely amazing! I should try and track it down.

Who's to say what's "constructive" or not on here?

Sometimes only a few words are just as effective as a term paper length post/reply.

There tends to be a "HOW DARE YOU QUESTION ME?!!!!!!!!?" attitude that creeps up from time to time on this board and it's utter bullshite and deserves to be called out whenever someone has the tenacity.

That's crossing the line and I don't appreciate it at all. If you have a problem just say it to me directly and cut the veiled personal insult routine. If you can't do that, or if you have no rational or appropriate way to reply to things that have been written by me or anyone else here, then consider dropping the kind of stuff that you just posted here entirely. If you can't discuss these things even in a heated debate kind of way without going to veiled personal insults against me or anyone else, you'll get called out like you were in other threads by posters other than me when the same stuff went down and you did the same routine.  It's not welcome, it's not funny or cool, and I promise I'm done with it for good this time. And others might be as well, but that's just speculation.

And if you don't like my paper length replies, don't read them. Your call. But don't patronize or insult me for writing what I want to write or how I want to write it. It's an open forum here, and if people have a problem with what I write here or the length or content of my posts, get in touch, let me know, and we'll talk. Or just don't read them. Plenty of words on this board to entertain, plenty of cool photos too.

Your call. Just don't drag me or how I contribute here into it. And try to man up and just come out with it directly if you do have an issue instead of using hit-and-run terms like "term paper length replies".

Guitarfool, you're one of the best posters on this board as far as I can see. I applaud you for sticking up for yourself here--you've done nothing but intelligently argue your position which is what this board should be for.

I say just ignore Pinder. He has a tendency to drag arguments on unnecessarily to the point where they become absolutely ridiculous. One of the reasons I stopped coming here for a few months was because he kept dragging me into this stupid fight about Mike Love. I wasn't being unfair or going out of my way to diss the man, but god forbid anyone have a different opinion. I wouldnt have even minded that so much if he hadn't joined in on the public taunting when I tried bumping a few older SMiLE threads--if we disagree on a topic, that's no big deal, but to join the crowd and put me down personally as a result was pretty petty I thought. I've been accused by others of not accepting criticism, so I think that last paragraph may also be a barb at me too. Which, if it is, I think it's really unfair and uncalled for. Basically what I'm saying is, he's not worth your time to argue with. Even when you best him, or point out how unreasonable he's acting, he plays the victim and/or acts like you're also in the wrong to the same extent he is. It's truly maddening.

Sorry, Pinder, but that's just my personal experience.

No offense taken, and I am fully aware of how I can come across, and I do try and stave that behavior, which is partly why I take frequent lengthy breaks from his board (I just set myself up for a wealth of barbs here) .... But I've been called out and insulted just as much as you're accusing me of doing, only it seems to be A-OK when it's certain posters doing the calling-out and insulting.... All that said, we ARE discussing things that are highly emotionally charged topics for not just some of us. This needs to be understood. The condescending tone that creeps in is the thing that always ends up getting me going, and I'll stand behind my opinion of it not always being cool.

I debate with great veracity, but I hope I haven't insulted anyone on a personal level. If I do, anyone can feel free to call me out on it, since I obviously don't like to be on the receiving end myself. I wasn't as polite to sweetdudejim as I couldve been on another thread, and it actually benefited both of us I think, when he called me out on it.

I don't think myself or anyone really has crossed the line into simply untenable behavior here on this board (well, aside from some choice personal messages I've received) and different people debate with great veracity in different ways/styles .... What on occasion bothers me with certain lengthy posts/replies is that a feeling comes across that based upon the time and effort taken to compose such posts/replies, this automatically makes disagreement especially prone to being taken as insult, irregardless of the content of said posts/replies or disagreement. I think we've seen ample evidence of this, though it is thankfully rare. But this occasional attitude of this sort of "what business do you have disagreeing with me?" type of thing, usually followed up with "polite" insults at the quality of the disagreer's contributions to the discussion is something I can't help but take issue with. Sometimes people disagree not just to put forth an opposing opinion, but also to learn.

I type long-winded replies because I'm passionate about what I'm writing about, and I want to debate my point as effectively as possible. I guess I could just say "Nope. I'm right." But that doesn't benefit anyone now, does it? This way, I can explain where I'm coming from, they can get an idea of why I disagree and maybe we can find common ground and home in on the details we still disagree with. That, to me, is an intelligent, interesting, meaningful discussion. I love it when the people I'm "arguing" with respond in kind. I guess not everyone looks at it that way, but it seems guitarfool does.

Oh, I love long posts/replies. Don't get me wrong (which I know I've made easy) and I've contributed some hefty streams of chatter myself..... I'm just describing a peculiar phenomena I've noticed in relation to certain long posts.....

So, it's OK to like island songs just as long as they're not about one called Kokomo?

And somehow island songs are just great but faux Jimmy Buffet songs about islands are not?

And sit-com actors are awesome with Brian and then it's time to turn around and bash Stamos some more?

Yeah, OK.

At least Stamos is cute

I think "On the Island" - what little we've heard of it - sounds sublime.  And yet, somehow, I like "Kokomo" too!  Always have.

As I said, almost any time the Beach Boys (or in this case, BW) do "island," I'm end up a happy listener.

I won't comment on how cute you find Stamos.  That's something very special and very personal to be shared between you and John, and entirely none of my business.

and I do have his business card