I'm gonna throw some opinions out there about Jan & Dean.

I must say I kinda appreciate Stebbins and Edelson's unfiltered comments about Jan & Dean.

I also am totally in agreement with Howie about how he loves reading about Jan & Dean thanks to Mark Moore, but that their music is usually....ehhh. I also agree that Jan's post accident (mostly '70s) vocal stuff is usually much more interesting.

Now, I will say that I actually do dig some of Jan's early stuff. I think "Jennie Lee" and "Baby Talk" are both cool little nostalgic '50s things. I also dig "Surf City", "Ride the Wild Surf" and "You Really Know How to Hurt a Guy" among maybe a few others.

However, stuff like his pro Vietnam War "Only a Boy" and the "The Universal Coward" are absolutely fucking pathetic especially when one considers that Jan was a fuckin' chicken hawk. He was all about that war and sending our young men over there, as long as he himself wasn't the one who was gonna be sent over. Cuz when he was drafted, he tried to weasel out of it. In fact, I wouldn't doubt that this was weighing on his mind the day he had his life changing car accident. And if I remember correctly, Jan actually changed stripes after the accident, becoming an anti-war Democrat.

And as far as Dean, dude kinda just seems like a dick. I could go into more later, but basically he just seemed (and still seems) very, very disrespectful of a friend (Jan) who made him a lot of money and opened many doors for him. Not to mention that I remember reading an interview from around 2012 or so where he said he wasn't sure if he'd do any new music* due to the fact that the President at the time was making it so hard for hard working Americans like him to make money.



*Like anybody cares if Dean Torrence puts out new music.

Totally agree about Jan most likely being a dick before the accident, and Dean being one afterwards! Still, that doesn't takeaway from the music--Universal Coward and Only A Boy are actually nice songs from a musical standpoint, but the lyrics are a whole different issue. I try to separate the personal from the music when dealing with artists that I don't know personally. It's the usual Mike Love argument--you can still enjoy the music, even with Mike (who will all know is a hardcore right-winger) singing it. And, as you likely know, Mike and Dean have been good friends for a long time.

You know, it's not so much Jan's earlier political beliefs at all, it was just that it was so damn hypocritical of him to be pushing for this war while trying his best to get out of serving his country. It doesn't bother me that Carl Wilson was a draft dodger because he was anti-war and cited his religious beliefs. He had a reason for not wanting to go. Jan on the other hand wanted to stay home and cheat on his girlfriend and make songs about how one should serve their country.

I'm gonna throw some opinions out there about Jan & Dean.

I must say I kinda appreciate Stebbins and Edelson's unfiltered comments about Jan & Dean.

I also am totally in agreement with Howie about how he loves reading about Jan & Dean thanks to Mark Moore, but that their music is usually....ehhh. I also agree that Jan's post accident (mostly '70s) vocal stuff is usually much more interesting.

Now, I will say that I actually do dig some of Jan's early stuff. I think "Jennie Lee" and "Baby Talk" are both cool little nostalgic '50s things. I also dig "Surf City", "Ride the Wild Surf" and "You Really Know How to Hurt a Guy" among maybe a few others.

However, stuff like his pro Vietnam War "Only a Boy" and the "The Universal Coward" are absolutely fucking pathetic especially when one considers that Jan was a fuckin' chicken hawk. He was all about that war and sending our young men over there, as long as he himself wasn't the one who was gonna be sent over. Cuz when he was drafted, he tried to weasel out of it. In fact, I wouldn't doubt that this was weighing on his mind the day he had his life changing car accident. And if I remember correctly, Jan actually changed stripes after the accident, becoming an anti-war Democrat.

And as far as Dean, dude kinda just seems like a dick. I could go into more later, but basically he just seemed (and still seems) very, very disrespectful of a friend (Jan) who made him a lot of money and opened many doors for him. Not to mention that I remember reading an interview from around 2012 or so where he said he wasn't sure if he'd do any new music* due to the fact that the President at the time was making it so hard for hard working Americans like him to make money.



*Like anybody cares if Dean Torrence puts out new music.

Billy, I'm thrilled to hear you agree with me! I've been thinking this for years.

I'm confused as to what you guys agree on...

Nah. I think it was the Four Freshman and the Four Seasons that did more for Brian's falsetto.

[Ten years of Harmony]

Wontcha Come Out Tonight: Brian's vocal in each refrain is the same recording.

If this isn't true, I'd be especially surprised. I was listening to it (via the UK CD version of Ten years of Harmony) and the way it goes from the verse to the chorus, you can pretty much hear the point where they pasted the chorus in.

Another Classic!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwHkmuU-MsM

That one was actually officially released too!!

There’s a few others, but the oddest one is from Mujan/Super Metroid  who has stated that she felt upset that there was no response to the bullying she received , which is not true. Not only did I stick up for her, I banned the person doing the lions share of it... who now posts there at PSF , for what it’s worth.

For the most part though, most of the people there are cool, no issues with steamboat, Becca, Will Harris, etc. it’s the people like the ones GF mentioned that are an issue albeit increasingly smaller. I think most people on both boards have put the issues behind them.

I agree with you Billy. And I gotta say, Mujan is especially weird because I'd say that Smiley Smile is a much more open, socially progressive board than PSF and people like The Real Beach Boy and mikesbeard and other homophobic/transphobic types on that board.

I can understand the label wanting the familiar song titles on there in a way.....

.....if, say, it was 1995 and you can find this album in any store. Now, Best Buy soon won't be carrying CDs, while I'm pretty sure places like Wal Mart and Target don't carry half as many CDs as they used to. So I'm gonna say that the whole "impulse buy" thing has mostly went out the window with the way things work now. Now, granted somebody may decide to buy a copy on Amazon due to the tracklisting, but one might also assume the person would sample some of the remakes and hear how horrible those versions are and be turned off to the entire project.

Goodbye Brian

Goodbye.

The only other regret was not going to see the Brian Wilson Tour in 2013, and missing a rare opportunity to hear Little Bird in concert

I'm gonna be honest with you man. I went to the Wilson/Beck show in St. Augustine, and it was the one BW or BB show that I really maybe don't think was all that worth it. Granted, it was cool to hear "Old Folks At Home/Ol' Man River" and I liked the Wilson/Beck "Danny Boy" but I must admit that David Marks singing "Little Bird" really didn't mean much of anything to me. It's cool I suppose, but whatever.

I’d say Joe Thomas was essentially the co-producer on a good hunk if not most of the TWGMTR sessions. I think it was more a PR/political thing to give him the (relatively odd) credit of “Recorded by Joe Thomas” instead of listing him as a co-producer.

Fair enough.

["The tune, which was featured on The Beach Boys Love album, marked the final time Brian Wilson was completely in charge of the material and production of an all-new group album."]

Howie, you are one of my absolute favorite people in Beach Boys fandom and I wish the group would follow more of your wishes.

However, the article does have a mistake in my opinion. The follow sentence is incorrect...

"The tune, which was featured on The Beach Boys Love album, marked the final time Brian Wilson was completely in charge of the material and production of an all-new group album."

This was true until 2012, but isn't it fair to say that That's Why God Made The Radio had Brian in charge?

Again, if you've been a fan and have read these boards and fan groups since the 90s, especially since Brian started touring in 1999, there have ALWAYS been calls for Brian to quit. *EVERY* tour.

Apologies for pulling out this one sentence, because the whole of your post was 100% correct in detailing the reactions to every tour the man has done. That's fact, and I saw it play out too. Nearly 20 years of it, as I said in an earlier post.

But I pulled this quote out to ask specifically *why* you think this is the case, beyond possibly fans getting bored with it and reacting like this. I'm also curious if you've noticed especially in recent years fans of a certain mindset making these calls versus other groups of fans, and I'll leave that to be interpreted however someone chooses to take it.

I think Brian is a unique situation, a unique show. For "outsiders" who don't know anything about his life or his history, his live performances can be really weird. It's easy for that type of observer to say Brian's in no shape to perform live. I do understand that.

I think, all else being equal, it's not so much "Brian's nuts and shouldn't be touring", but it's more the same reason some people don't dig on a Bob Dylan concert, or Tom Waits, or Nick Cave, or whatever. Brian's voice, for a variety of common and less common reasons, is challenged, especially in concert settings.

I knew all this as a long-time fan going into the 1999 tour. I had seen the "Imagination" TV appearances. I had seen Brian at past BB shows. The weird, hyped up (maybe coked out?) performances on the 1977 tour. The quiet, off to the side performances from 1979 and 1980. The weird Landy-devised appearances of the late 80s (tight leather pants?). I know what I was getting into.

It was transcendent in ways I don't think even huge fans could have imagined. It was also still weird. Brian sang the wrong words during one song because he probably *shouldn't* have been using the teleprompter so much; he actually *didn't* need it. Brian in early 1999 shows did "fake" play the piano. But not because he *can't* play piano. It's because, for some reason, he had the idea that he couldn't just sit and sing (which is what he did on the 2000 tour I saw, resulting in some of his best vocals, as if he was cutting them in a studio).

But Brian fans "get" it. We can at times be overly forgiving. But it's not because simply he's "our guy", it's because we know the wringer he's been through, *numerous* times. And he *can* put on a good show. He can get in a good mood, and sing with gusto and energy. To this day.

My issue is that the misgivings were justified to some degree back in 1999, but we haven't really been given any further definitive info one way or the other since then. The same is true today as it was in 1999, and as a fan we either accept it and go to the show, or we don't. I respect both decisions. Have I ever wondered whether Brian should still be touring? Sure. I was at the 2007 show with Al where Brian decided to lay down on stage. There's no way that *wasn't* weird. But I also don't think he had  hit some new wall that wasn't there in 1999. He had bad days in 1999. He had a *really bad day* in 2007. And sometimes he also has "regular" bad days; he has a cold or just feels crummy or whatever.

But Brian touring is a unique thing unto itself in some ways, and that's why what some may feel is a simple call to question his weight or whatever is not simply a normal observation. It comes loaded with 50 years of band politics.

I don't think, pre-2012, there was much of any huge mechanism trying to actively tear Brian down. That *did* change post-C50. Those Mike interviews, those Beard pieces, those read to me (and it's just my opinion) to be a clear, active campaign to tear Brian down. I think some other fans that maybe tended to be a bit more friendly to Mike's "side" of things may have unknowingly been made a part of that sort of campaign.

I think there is a litmus test, in my mind, for how realistic a fan is willing to be about the deep, hardcore (unfortunate) politics surrounding this band. There are several litmus tests, but one is this: Do you think Jeff Foskett jumping from Brian's band to Mike's is a political move, and comes across (and maybe even was devised as) a big F-You to Melinda Wilson? If your answer is no, then I often fear that means you're either actively part of some weird campaign to paint Mike in a positive light, or you're unknowingly falling into that trap.

I don't think KDS came on this thread to rip Brian a new one. I think, as a *somewhat* newer/new-ish fan (meaing not decades and decades), he maybe doesn't see how defending Mike on average more than a typical fan, and then also saying some things that might reflect negatively on Brian, will often be met with a questioning of motives.

If we can be frank, I think KDS is (and I mean this as an absolutely neutral label, TRULY, because I can't think of a better descriptor) a fan of the fence-walking variety. There's no lack of a willingness to criticize both sides, but sometimes I sense of sake of false equivalency for the sake of it. There is indeed a fine line between being truly even-handed and fence-walking for the sake of it. I'm for criticizing only when it's warranted, but that doesn't mean "say one nice thing about this, and then one nice thing about that." So yeah, when it comes to hugely divisive stuff like C50, I have less patience, having studied that project as closely as one possibly could (and perhaps being privy to some things not published out there), for a "well, it was everybody's fault" attitude.

I'm rambling, so I'll stop for the moment.  

Great post.

Which means it'll probably be ignored.

David is one of those rare cool old dudes that looks better and better with age.

My wife knows pretty much every Beach Boys name, but usually can't remember Dave. She calls him "guy with the glasses" or Graham Parker, since she saw him in This Is 40 with a somewhat Marks-ian look.



I kinda see it.

The same show used Dennis's "You and I" a little over a year ago.

Shoot, you're right. I had forgotten about that.

[Love You]

I about jumped out of my skull when at the end of HBOs show 'Divorce' "I'll Bet He's Nice" popped on during the credits. I've heard random songs (including some random Beach Boys) but for some reason this one I just couldn't believe.

Happy to hear it, and hopefully this will get the song and the Love You album some much needed props.

A previous member here, Sheriff John Stone, admitted to taking some lunatic stance on the Mike vs Brian feud by “faking” to hate Melinda and Brian for years and years to prove a point to the Brianistas (something really nuts like that). Anyways, his posts caused a ton of pointless arguing and divisiveness here, all because he was supposedly trying to create a balance. Point being, it’s not healthy for the board if you take extreme stances to create a balance. Just tell it how it was/is without any exaggeration and the board will be better for it.

Yeah I remember when he "revealed" all this to me. And while I understand that it would be annoying to see somebody you dig being sh*t on (sometimes unfairly), I don't understand why disparaging Brian and basically doing everything but calling him an invalid made up for it. SJS is probably one of the least respectful people of Brian's situation that I have ever dealt with online, and that is really saying something.

Maybe Tommy Wiseau or Ontor Pertwast?

Who mention me?

If you want, I make big Hollywood movie about Brian Wilson.

Man I sure hope Al brings this show to Florida.

Funny thing about this picture.  It's probably one of the few times in the late 80s where Mike is the LEAST ridiculous looking one in the picture. 

Mike actually looks 80s cool. 

There's such thing as "80s cool"? That's funny, given it's the worst decade fashion-wise.

I don't know.   I think the 1990s gave us guys wearing baggy jeans past their crotch with oversized tee shirts and backwards / sideways caps.   I'll take those bright 80s neons over that any day of the week. 

Nothing racialized about that. Nothing at all.

[Masterpiece]

Well, I actually think Summer of Love is fun and I love the drum sounds on the album. Why do some people want everything to sound like Pet Sounds or Sunflower? SIP is not a masterpiece, nor it's meant to sound like one. It's just a corny, cheesy and (partly) horrible album. I can't stand that Forever cover. But overall the album has it's charm - and those cheesy drums are a huge part of it.

Didja know that Mike's title for the follow-up album was seriously Masterpiece? It seems our friend Dr. Michael Edward Love thought he was making some important music.

Dennis would have BATTERED an electric drum kit!

Agreed. I kinda wonder if his music might have adapted a slightly more 1980s electronic edge at some point.

I think I've written this before, but I think it's fair to say that Dennis was the "trendiest" or most "of the times" Beach Boy. I haven't a doubt that if he was still trying to make new music he woulda been up to his neck in synths and whatnot. I could even have seen him going down the moody, synthy road of a Depeche Mode or a Spandau Ballet. "Big", somewhat synthetic sounding music with moody vocals. I could see it.

[Endless Summer]

Endless summer and PS are still the best way to start a 1CD collection.

Interesting that your write this SMiLE Brian, because a few weeks ago I thought about starting a thread talking about how great the track selection on Endless Summer was. If you could squeeze "Please Let Me Wonder" and "Lonely Sea" onto there, I think it would make a nearly perfect overview of their '62 thru '65 era.

Also, I would say that a great trio of purchases would be Pet Sounds, Endless Summer and Classics selected by Brian Wilson. Having all these titles in one's collection what give you Brian's best album, a large chunk of their greatest early work, and then later classics like "Heroes And Villains", "Surf's Up", "'Til I Die", "This Whole World" and others. However, only having those three discs also means you miss out on some of my very favorites like "Please Let Me Wonder", "Good Timin'" and "Cool, Cool Water" so I suppose ultimately things always get tricky.

[Actually, it was me - and I got it straight from Tom Murphy]

I'm pretty sure in Gaines it was said that Brian was wanted for the lead on "Good Timin'" in 1978.

Actually, it was me - and I got it straight from Tom Murphy...here is exactly what he wrote to me: "We were hoping Brian would sing the lead on 'Good Timin''.  But time ran out.  So Carl and I did the vocal at Britannia Studio, where we did a lot of the backing vocals for the whole record.  It was bittersweet for me; Carl sang HEAVENLY but we both wished it was Brian."

My apologies c-man! You are the man and I want you to get all credit you are due!

[L.A. (Light Album)]

I remember reading somewhere, fairly recent, that they were hoping for Brian to sing the lead on "Good Timin'," but he wasn't available in time and they had to put it out as is.  I may be mixing this up with "Goin' On" though.  Does this ring a bell with anyone?

It seems tailor made for Carl's voice.

The thing I've noticed with "Good Timin'" is that it sounds deceptively like a really simple lead vocal to perform. It doesn't require a huge range or anything. But I think it's a slightly difficult lead to pull off, because it's all about the tone and pulling off rolling the last word of each verse.

Witness the fact that Mike's sole stab at the lead in '79 is pretty weak and wonky, and really even Brian's stabs at it on his solo tours or C50 have strangely always sounded more wonky than one would think it should. Dennis's attempts in '79 were okay I suppose.

I think they could have coaxed a good lead out of Brian during the '78 Criteria sessions if he had been able to bring his insanely ultra-smooth "MIU" voice (the "Matchpoint of Our Love" voice), but he was so relatively low key and down during the LA sessions that maybe it just wouldn't have happened even if they had wanted it. And I honestly have no idea if they ever eyed Brian for the lead on that one.

I'm pretty sure in Gaines it was said that Brian was wanted for the lead on "Good Timin'" in 1978. However, I wonder about this as obviously in 1974 you had Brian working on the song at Caribou with Carl doing the lead. So if it was planned to have a Brian lead, why was Carl doing it then?

But yeah, I do wonder if it would've been as commercial as it is if it would've had a circa 1978 Brian lead vocal. The vocals from around the time of the L.A. (Light Album) vary. I thought he sounded pretty nice and clear on "California Feelin'" while he sounded pretty rough on the demo for "I'm Begging You Please"  and just incredibly rugged on "Drip Drop" so I'm unsure as to how he would've sounded. I assume they coulda done something really nice all things considered, but I guess we will never know.