A simple gap that could use filling here: Where did the Beach Boys stop, to begin with, and "America's Band" begin?  I'm going to just guess that Carl's absence invoked the one-Wilson minimum rule...? Did they need to reconstitute who the band was, legally, even while Carl was alive?

(A) Just curious- does Melinda have a known history of lying, or is there evidence that this remark wasn't made?  Where I come from, something like one of those things usually accompanies calling someone a liar, though I guess just not liking a person or not liking what they say is also just cause.

(B)  I have to admit it would just be WAY out of character for Mike to make a blunt and unpopular remark.  In fact, such a postulation, even by Jesus, would strain my credulity to the breaking point.   

(C) Just to get this straight- evidence that the remark is false is that Mike DIDN'T respond (as isn't his wont). When a false comment is attributed to him, Mike says nothing; if the quote had been accurate, he would have refuted it (as IS his wont).

Mike has said in an interview somewhere that he supplied the line "By and by we'll defy a little bit of gravity" as a reference to TM. (Probably the Goldmine "Bad Vibrations" rant). So give him that one, and the carefully-placed reference to "Cocktails" implies that a fair amount of rewriting was done for the film version.

This really pisses me off...was the June 11, 1983 Lake Lanier (Georgia) show really one of only three shows that month with no Brian?  Or is that partly from my information earlier?  In other words, is Brian's appearance confirmed when there's no asterisk, or just his non-presence confirmed when there is?

I went up there in great hopes of seeing Brian, but by the time I left I knew that Dennis had been the historic presence.  I've posted about this often, but since it's under discussion, and at risk of being repetitive, here it is again: Dennis was OUT OF IT in Lake Lanier, and the only song I really remember him playing drums on was the opener- "California Girls".  He was just thrashing the drums and caused them to finish much faster than they started.  The whole band seemed strained. After that he pretty much just stumbled around the stage, and croaked out "You Are So Beautiful". His presence was really disruptive, but it was fascinating, and as I've posted before, I told my girlfriend that he wouldn't live out the year. I knew I was seeing the end of an era.

Mike did his "Back In The U.S.S.R." story before they did the song, but at that point he wasn't yet claiming to have co-written the song.

Still got my stub right here by my desk.

I have a really nice copy of the Murry album on vinyl; I've actually never listened to it.  I have the Gary Usher album with a different (not as cool) cover.

"Old Man River"...  by Kern/Hammerstein, right?

Another Ray Charles oddity- anyone ever notice he did a song called "Kiss Me Baby"- sometimes given as "Kiss-A Me Baby"?  Although it's not the Beach Boys song, the only time I ever found a songwriter credit on it, it was "Wilson" (and I think it was even "B.Wilson"!).

[SMiLE]

Straining my memory here- is that not one of the specific sessions that was supposed to have pissed the band off- animal noises, etc.?

Also, I think it's been pretty well put to bed that the Beach Boys did not actually refuse cooperation during the SMiLE sessions, other than (at most) a couple of lyric blow-ups from Mike, so we're only talking about enthusiasm level, as far as I can follow. My understanding has always been that the environment was a great deal different for Smiley.

Thanks , Carrie- followed your description easily.  I had been to the neighborhood many years ago, just after the demolition, when the site was at least still there.  I think there was debris in the yard, I should have tried harder to save something.

See if this works:

http://snipurl.com/bbmonument

Tears For Fears has a song called "Brian Wilson Said".

Jackie DeShannon had a lyric- "Brian Wilson songs are never left behind"- in her song "Boat To Sail", on which Brian (and I think Marilyn) provide backing vocals.

Bruce's song "I Write The Songs" is supposedly about Brian, and Mike's cryptic "Brian's Back" has long been suspected of being about Brian, in a veiled way.

There was a seventies song called "Dear Brian" by somebody.

And of course- the big one- Henry Gross' big hit "Shannon" was supposedly about Carl's dog.

 "Shannon" and Mike's "Checkers" would form the basis of a concept album about the deaths of the Beach Boys' dogs.  Can anyone come up with musical eulogies for Banana or Louie?

So, what made them so cooperative on Smiley?  I mean, they do seem to be enjoying themselves on that one; what changed their minds?

I don't know, but whatever it was also caused them to giggle uncontrollably throughout the sessions and lie around on the floor.

[SMiLE]

I went to a tiny ESQ convention in San Diego in about 1991. Brian surprised everybody by showing up (with Landy).  I bought a nice little print of the SMiLE cover and he inscribed it for me, and it's beautifully matted and framed in my entrance hall, where I smile at it every day.

I shook his hand and told him that I thought his 1988 solo album was the best album of the eighties.  He got a serious look and pulled me closer to repeat that to his good ear.  When he got the comment, he looked stunned by it, and said "My album?  WOW, Thanks!"

Whatever album he puts out, whatever show he does, I'll be there to support it. It's impossible to say "thank you" to that guy enough times.

There also won't be any more fresh interviews with Gary Usher, Roger Christian, Mae or Irving Rovell, Audree, any of Murry's siblings, Fred Vail (?), Nik Venet...Dave Marks' parents...Shawn Love, Karen Lamm, (are any on that list living?).

Unless I have missed something I'm pretty sure Fred Vail is still alive.

Certainly hope you're right.  I was most unsure of that one, hence the question mark.

Oh, it's actually very nice.

Wonder how the Blueboarders are gonna react!! 

I have never visited this "Blueboard" but I keep seeing references to the people there.  Are they the world's biggest bastards or something?

[Heroes & Villains]

Mr. Gaines -- Your presence here is/has been greatly appreciated.  Ian has been a serious biographer of the groups' history (since 1961) for the last three or so years.  See AGD'S Bellagio site (http://www.btinternet.com/~bellagio/).   Not knowing him personally but...knowing him...I am POSITIVE he wasn't trying to 'correct you', per se.  He was just doing what he's done for a long time now. 

Please don't think it was an attack on you or the book.  Or the info in the book. 

Hope to see you back here in a couple days...

I second that, and would add that I don't think anyone sees the book as having error-issues, unless maybe the author himself, to his credit. Andrew had even spoken to its basic accuracy recently, and it's withstood twenty-two years of additional research extremely well, especially for a book of that scope.

This is especially frustrating for me, because this book is a GREAT topic for this place, and (surprisingly) one of the few things that hasn't (to my knowledge) already been beaten to death by four generations of posters.

TO give you an idea of what was in play here, think of this: in the Fall of 1961 Murry and Audree went to Mexico for the weekend with an English business associate of A.B.L.E. Machinery, and returned to find that the Beach Boys had been born out of the meal money they left. The English guy apparently came into the house with them and witnessed that moment and heard them play "Surfin' ".  Steven Gaines talked to the English guy.

There also won't be any more fresh interviews with Gary Usher, Roger Christian, Mae or Irving Rovell, Audree, any of Murry's siblings, Fred Vail (?), Nik Venet...Dave Marks' parents...Shawn Love, Karen Lamm, (are any on that list living?).

This guy talked to an absolutely stunning list of people and his research can never be duplicated.  He had even expressed an openness to possibly posting selected audio excerpts for us.

He was not here shilling a new edition. He was just fielding questions from us.  I was working up to asking some slightly tougher or more subjective ones, but in light of recent developments I am considering changing that approach and openly kissing his ass.

In all seriousness, and I hope you're reading this, I think we'd be willing to have the discussion of Heroes & Villains on whatever basis you're comfortable with- though now you know you're among obsessives. And if you don't feel inclined to leap back into the ring with us, I'd like to propose that you consider being available to Endless Summer Quarterly or some other publication like that, because there is extremely high interest in your work.

... Bizarrely-Keith Badman repeats this error on page 24 of his book and on page 32 of his book states that they did an east coast tour in Jan 1963, but then on page 35 describes "the group's first concert outside California"-talk about poor editing!  

I was crazily confused on this point while reading the Badman book.

Thanks for the insight about the tape. Rocky sure doesn't come off good on the tape but I guess he saw the value in keeping it. It was worth what you paid, it is very compelling.

Here's what doesn't come off good: why the hell were they hiding a tape recorder in the room?

[Heroes & Villains]

It's certainly not an error-filled book, and isn't perceived that way.  When you write on a subject that's this passionate and personal for a lot of people, you're usually going to come under attack from some quarter, and while Heroes & Villains stirred some strong response (and still does), the first two things you would usually hear- "error-filled" and "a work of fiction", in that order, have never been applied to it and couldn't be. 

In re-reading it, the only thing that strikes me is that in some cases new information has become available, especially in connection with the recording of SMiLE and so forth, that could be incorporated into a revised text. There are cases where I don't think "error" so much as "this is based on the information that was available then."

I'm sure I will spot some legitimate errors as I go, because just about every book of any scope contains them.  If you do a revised edition, it will contain errors as well.  My brother has a sports-related book coming out in a few weeks, and he sent the manuscript to me and another of our brothers, and we spotted a half dozen or more small errors each that the publisher wouldn't have caught. That guy didn't play in that game, etc. And each of us missed errors that someone else caught- and often about events we all witnessed recently.

I agree that a fully updated version would be a bad idea- the story at hand really ends with Dennis' death, and what follows would be a different book.  But I'd love to read a new afterward (afterword?) that would give us a postscript on some of the people that had a larger role in this story than in any other Beach Boys book- most especially, I'd love to read a really extended piece of journalism (or anything at all)  on the last twenty years of Shawn Love's life- I think there's a very real and tragic story there. She must have gotten to be almost exactly Dennis' age.  I've also been interested in how Gage has managed to muddle through.

[Wouldn't It Be Landy]

Hi Steven (and Surfer Joe),

It's a little intimidating to answer this particular call for participation if you're not a heavyweight (Cam Andrew Alan etc.) but in the spirit of egalitarianism
I will try to add a worthwhile interjection.

Not meant that way at all- just calling for more people to take advantage of this opportunity, which should not be blown.  This guy has not been generally available to us for 22 years and there's a lot of knowledge and insight here.

Re-reading the book right now, I'm amazed at how completely I remember it- I must have read it more than once.  Somewhere on almost every page, I can remember a sentence that's coming later in the paragraph.  But it's a very different experience in another way- in 1986 it was the first Beach Boys book I'd read. This time around I've read a dozen or so others, but none seem to compare except for maybe the Timothy White book in terms of research- who the hell else talked to Murry's brothers? Or other residents of W. 119th Street? (Relax, I'm sure someone did).  But how many people have given us much insight into Bud Wilson?

Which begs another question, and though I think it'll rate a one word answer, I'll ask it: other than Wouldn't It Be Landy, have you read any of the other things published on Brian and the band since 1986?

[Elvis- What Happened?]

Sorry to prattle, but one other thing: because I mixed up the circumstances with the Downey show, don't think I would mix your work up with Goldman's. I picked up his Elvis book in the drug store when I was in high school, not knowing what it was.  After about thirty pages of total disgust, I shelved the thing and never looked back-even though I had read the bodyguard book (Elvis- What Happened?) with great interest.  Even at that age I knew slime when I read it. Sliming your subject (like Goldman did)  is very different than shining a very harsh and not always sympathetic light.

I appeared on the Mort Downey show, with a good haircut as I remember, because Albert Goldman had just published a scathing, lying, nasty book about John Lennon and he left the country because he couldn't take the heat.  Downey was looking for another Beatles' author and I agreed to go on the show.  The book Downey put in the pirhanna tank was Goldman's book, not mine.

Ah, thank you for that- after posting, I was asking myself why I was watching that 1n 1988 (because I remember where I was) when your Beatle book was much earlier. That explains it, and it all comes back to me. You were taking someone else's beating. And to anyone who still doubted the identity of our guest (I never did for a second), here's your polygraph key, as I could find no other reference to this incident on the net just now.  (It wasn't intended as a test, though!)

Just came from re-reading the passage on Dennis' death in your book- extremely affecting, once again.  Just painful. As an aside, former Los Angeles County Coroner Thomas Noguchi wrote a book about famous L.A. cases he wasn't personally involved with, including Freddie Prinz, for example, and Dennis.  He theorized that Dennis died in a state of euphoria. I hope he's right.

I guess what frustrates me is that we'll never really get that vivid fly-on-the-wall glimpse into Carl's life and what really made him tick.  So- time for another of my questions.

You've indicated that the friendliness with Marilyn survived the book- not surprising in one sense, because she is such a warm and charming person (a few of us here have met her, too)- but surprising in another sense: she may have benefited the most in your text, sympathetically, and she may have also suffered the most. Have you had any other responses from  or encounters with your old subjects, good or bad? 

Also, can you tell us where and how you found David Marks in the mid-eighties?  (I mean life-wise; he was in my Burbank phone book for years!)  Nowadays he seems like the wise old reformed hippy who's kind of beaten the house, he's had a (very positive) book written about him, and he's putting out great music, old and new, through his website.

And everybody else, please get in on this.  Don't leave it to me.  It's an opportunity. Andrew?  Josh?  Cam? We have this guy here who has done, in numerous ways, probably the most thorough job of research on the band members' lives ever (especially in a concentrated period); he's opening up to us; giving excellent, candid answers; we haven't even bought him a drink yet; if he gets out of here unmolested, or insufficiently molested, we'll hate ourselves in the morning. 

And incidentally, I hear Kitty Kelly is currently working on that Twisted Sister book.

[Brian Wilson Presents SMiLE]

Next up- and this is a no-brainer for us to ask- you mention that Carl showed signs of some of the Wilson "issues". Would it be out of bounds to ask you to expand on that? 

I would say drug abuse would be at or near the top of the list.

M.

Without a doubt...hoping to get some more detailed insight.  While we're waiting I might as well lob a soft one in there to balance the tougher  one: since 1986, how much have you kept up as a fan, and have you kept close tabs on things like Brian Wilson Presents SMiLE, the lawsuits, the Was documentary, and the California Board Of Medical Quality sticking its big, black foot up Landy's ass*?

*Metaphor courtesy of Chris Rock

[H & V]

Fascinating reply; you've anticipated several of my next questions (though I may ask some of them anyway) and comments.  One comment I had wanted to make was that some of the younger posters on this board may not realize what a big, hairy, freaking deal the Peter Brown/Beatles book was at the time, so I think we (fans) did see you coming, and knew it might not be pretty.  I even had an argument with my high school girlfriend because she bought the Beatles book.  I'll never forget your appearance on the infamous Morton Downey Jr. show and what they did with your book there- which I'll leave to you to tell, if you recall. You kind of laughed your way through it. (You were slumming with idiots).

I am re-reading the book (H & V) now, and am not surprised at how vivid it has remained in my memory after 22 years.  It remains well-written, extremely well-researched, and extremely brutal.

Next up- and this is a no-brainer for us to ask- you mention that Carl showed signs of some of the Wilson "issues". Would it be out of bounds to ask you to expand on that? 

I won't keep saying this ad nauseum, but thanks for your participation here and for for opening up. You don't owe it to us to submit to a grilling, but we're very, very interested.

A friend of mine caught him on the way to the stage in Atlanta before an eighties Beach Boys/Chicago show and got him to sign something.  He said "thank you" to Carl's back, as Carl walked away, and Carl turned to reply, with emphasis, "No, thank YOU." That's become my capsule image of him.

Surfer Joe -- Your capsule image of Carl is totally correct.  I'm only sorry for your sake you don't have a memory or two of Carl of your own.

The last time I talked with Carl was on March 29th, 1996 at the Riviera in Las Vegas.  Through a friend's connections I was lucky enough to be there.  He had just been through what I thought would be a soundcheck but turned into a full-blown rehearsal due to two new members in the backing band (Chris Farmer who'd played with them before and Tim Bonhomme).  It lasted 160 mins from start to finish.  They had two shows to do that night but Carl still took the time to talk with me and my friend for about ten mins.  Carl remembered my name from me having spoken with him on the "Big Red Boat Cruise" in May of 1995.  The bulk of that conversation was about pictures of the house that Audree was born in in South Minneapolis.  I gave him copies of those pics I'd taken (the info courtesy of Timothy White's book...page 62 I think) .  Obviously, I lived in the Minneapolis area at the time.

How many "Rock Stars" would remember the name of just another fan from ten months earlier? 

I've said this before about Carl Dean Wilson.  He was both a gentleman and a gentle man!  I miss him tremendously and will until the day I die.

Great story, thanks for sharing that- I'm sure we'd all like to hear more about that rehearsal.  I never met Carl, but was lucky enough to see him perform a number of times. I got to see Dennis once, too...

Which brings up another question for the subject of this thread: having been at the famous '76 birthday party, did you have any interaction with Dennis? Also, how did you go about recreating those last days so vividly?  It must have still been a VERY awkward topic.  Finally, did you show up in any of the documentaries that include footage from that party?

He was the most opaque of the Beach Boys- outside of the music, we mostly only get glimpses of him through public things like his conscientious objector battle, and little anecdotes, like blasting the freshly mixed "Good Vibrations" through his neighborhood after hours.  I also think of the prostitute story from the book under discussion here- "She didn't even care".

A friend of mine caught him on the way to the stage in Atlanta before an eighties Beach Boys/Chicago show and got him to sign something.  He said "thank you" to Carl's back, as Carl walked away, and Carl turned to reply, with emphasis, "No, thank YOU." That's become my capsule image of him.

Thanks for responding- did Carl talk to you at all? 


I'll be starting a re-read of your book tonight so I can come up with some good questions.