RE. H&V A & B side single, I’m thinking there isn’t a direct quote by Chuck Britz, yet anyway.  I think I was probably confabulating these two quotes by Britz and Lockert:


"It was done like 'Good Vibrations'; it was just one hell of a song. It was a great song. Then, I understand, they went up to his home, and they did a lot of things. They cut it and inserted an organ down at the bottom of pool to get the pool quality. They did all kinds of things, but I think basically it could have been as good a classic as 'Good Vibrations' or better. Our (version) ran about five or six minutes; it was just a further step from 'Good Vibrations'. It had some great melodic lines. The arrangement was so full, and it was just something that I was very disappointed in when I heard the final product."
 
Chuck Britz  (p. 114, Leaf)


"We had the complete song, but they just wanted to use part of it. Brian wanted to change what had been done on the rest of it. I think he wanted instrumentally and vocally to make it more complex. I think he wanted to finish the song, it was a challenge to him. We went and re-recorded (from where we started off the old tape) the rest of the song at the studio in the house. We did the parts and the music tracks and most of the guys played their own instruments. It was done in pieces and the vocals were done to complete the song."
 
Jim Lockert  (p. ?, Preiss)


I also understand that supposedly:  “Andy Paley asked Chuck in the late 80's whether there was such a track. Dominic Priore wanted to know if there was a H&V Part 2 and had Andy ask Chuck. At the time, Brad's article had not been changed, so it was still in the theory stages. Chuck said that he DID remember there being a two-part H&V and that the song was one of the longer songs that he remembered doing with Brian. Now, in the early 90's, Dominic met Chuck himself and had the chance to ask him that question again (just to see if he still held the same thoughts) and a few more questions. So, he asked Chuck again about a two-part H&V and Chuck said the same thing about it. Plus, Dominic and Chuck got into a little rant about how so many R&B artists had already cut two-part songs way before that.”

I contacted Andy about it through his website but haven’t heard anything yet.  Anyone else have more direct contact with Andy?

So nothing solid from Britz yet, but plenty of other solid evidence even without it.

You may pretend whatever you like.

The interview as-is is good; without all the usual spin, second guessing, words being put in mouth, holding accountable to other's words, knee jerking, false comparisons, and presumption that fans know Mike's experience better than he does, that is.

I recently discovered something that probably shows Capitol had an expectation of a early to mid-January release of a version of H&V.  The following new Capitol singles were all shown in Billboard's issue from January 21 1967 on page 14 under "Spotlight Singles" and they all bracketed the Capitol number 5626 assigned to the H&V single. I also included the earliest radio chart dates I could find where I could find it.

#5815 Norma Lee - Please World

#5816 The Classics IV - Little Darlin'  (HB on WJOT Jan. 16 1967)

#5818 Brothers And Sisters - The Ali Shuffle – supposedly released Jan 2 1967

#5819 Four Preps - Love Of The Common People (#31 on WTAC Jan 19 1967)

#5820 Matthew Moore - Come On (David Marks on guitar)

#5821 Willie Harvey - Hitchhike Back To Georgia

#5822 Jean Shepard - My Momma Didn't Raise No Fools (charted KFRM Jan 29 1967)

#5823 Matt Monro - The Lady Smiles

#5824 Lou Rawls - Trouble Down Here Below (#54 on WMCA January 19 1967)

#5825 Al Martino - Daddy's Little Girl  (#49 on WMCA January 19 1967)

#5826 Capitol's assigned number for the H&V single

#5828 Stan Kenton - Spanish Eyes

#5829 The Hearts And Flowers - Road To Nowhere

No that's Danny Hutton (not VDP) - "What A Thing To Happen!".  The line is from Danny's 45 record on MGM about a year earlier "FUNNY HOW LOVE CAN BE"

Isn't it VDP doing a parody of Danny Hutton?

[but at least I could see the form of it]

Some are around, some are in Badman's book, and the Smile box, etc, as are tapebox labels and so forth.  I was given a stack of copies of the contracts (a few are transcriptions of contracts), Capitol sheets, long ago and there are more than I have now it seems.

Fair enough.

OK, we will disagree.  He couldn't record two different recordings at the same time for different masters but #57020 was on-going before, during, and after the #57045 sessions, so they were concurrent.

He is stating as fact that there "was an A side B side version lasting about six minutes".

The ones we are discussing right now.  I would like to see them, as they would present documentation contrary to what is stated in the Smile book (as the sessions are not noted as for H&V Part 2), and all other documentation I've seen.  

Fair enough.

57020 was ongoing?  It appears the final session under that master was 2/20/67 with Part 4.  Am I wrong?  What were the other parts after that under 57020?

"The best version I heard, which was never completed, but at least I could see the form of it, was an A side B side version lasting about six minutes"
He could see the form of it, as in, this is his interpretation of what he had heard.  Wouldn't he have stated "Brain said it should be two sides of a single" if it had happened?  No, he's phrasing it "I could see the form of it" because it's his interpretation, not fact.  Is he right or wrong?  We don't know, but it's important not to misconstrue opinion as fact.  

Craig did an outstanding job of packing as much info into the booklet as was possible (not trying to quote contract titles at this granular level). If I'm mistaken I'm sure someone will soon correct me but sorry, I'm too busy/lazy to comply with your request.  Others can though.

Fair enough.

There were at least continuing sessions for the #57020 master on June 12, 13, and 14, 1967 (it is in TSS too).

I think we are just going to disagree. Vosse "could see the form of it" and the form "was an A side B side version lasting about six minutes" = straightforward witness.

That's a coincidence because my copy has been missing for several years, it must be someplace but I've looked and can't find it.  Perhaps some board member with a copy could check?  My memory is that Britz was never quoted directly in the book . . .

I'm beginning to doubt my memory that there is a published Britz quote, hopefully someone can check; it may be something that Britz allegedly told to both Paley and Priore separately.

The AFM Recording Contracts from the sessions.

It was used after the fact in June in the master for the released single, which wouldn't change its intention or status as for the #57045 "Side 2" master in January and/or late February and early March.  It was for side 2 when side 2 was being created but used a different way when the 2 sided single was dropped is how I assume it worked.

I disagree, not really like other songs and they were concurrent.  The #57020 master was recorded from December 19 through June 14, and the #57045 master was recorded from January 5 through March 2.

Luckily for us, it was Vosse who heard it and knew it was actually the two sides of an H&V single.  

Can no one reading this thread find their copy of the Preiss book?  Anyone volunteer to ask VDP about a two sided H&V single?

Where can we see the contracts?  Do you have them in front of you or is this "what you believe"?

Fair enough.

I disagree.  They are not concurrent when Brian stopped working on one entirely and shifted attention, then dropped that entirely again for something else.  That is consecutive.

Read the quote again.  He is offering his opinion.  There is not fact stated.  It was "clear to him" from listening to six minutes of.... something.  And, as I said, I would come to the same conclusion if I heard the 3 min Cantina mix and another 2 or 3 minutes of Brian's edits of the Gee Variations. 

Some are around, some are in Badman's book, and the Smile box, etc, as are tapebox labels and so forth.  I was given a stack of copies of the contracts (a few are transcriptions of contracts), Capitol sheets, long ago and there are more than I have now it seems.

Fair enough.

OK, we will disagree.  He couldn't record two different recordings at the same time for different masters but #57020 was on-going before, during, and after the #57045 sessions, so they were concurrent.

He is stating as fact that there "was an A side B side version lasting about six minutes".

I think Craig was trying to give some background with those notes, I believe this is the way they are actually logged by “Session No.” under “TITLE OF TUNES” by “Master No.” on the AFMs:

“Heroes and Villains - Part 2”: (“Side 2”): 1/5/67 (57045/Session # 14247)

“Heroes and Villains”: 1/27/67 (57020)
“Heroes and Villains”:  2/20/67 (57020)
“Heroes and Villains”: 2/20/67 (57020)
“Heroes and Villains”:  2/20/67 (57020)
“Heroes and Villains”: 2/20/67 (57020)

“Heroes and Villains - Part II”: 2/27/67 (57045/Session # 14247A)
“Heroes and Villains - Part II Insert”: 2/28/67 (57045/Session # 14247B)
“Heroes and Villains - Part II”: 3/1/67 (57045/Session # 14247C)
“Heroes and Villains, Part II (Insert)”: 3/2/67 (57045/Session # 14247D)

Do you have a source for this?  

I believe it is a fact that #57020 was from December 19 through to the released single and still is the master of the side 1 of the H&V single even without a single note about it being for the master for side 1, which makes it even more significant that the #57045 H&V Part 2 master is identified as “Side 2”.  

But the 57045 piece labeled Part 2/Side 2 was used with the 57020 verses that you assume are Side 1 as one edit.  How does that work?  

As I’ve said the master numbers for H&V became consistent and consecutive beginning December 19 even as two separate concurrent masters from January 5 though March 2. The reason doesn't matter but I assume he worked on each master as he was able or inspired when he could, touring and studio availability were issues and there seems to be some consideration about how much of SMiLE to give away on side 2 of the H&V single.  Would that be more of a concern if you were going to give away a single song from the album or if you were giving away some sort of suite or sampler of modified tracks from several songs from the album?

I'm sorry I'm going to have to disagree with this assessment.  He wasn't doing two masters at the same time.  He would start one and then drop it, using a new master when starting over.  Just like other songs of the project.  They were not concurrent, they were consecutive.  

“So, in the studio, things were going off and on: the album was moving very slowly, and it missed its Christmas release - so at that point they decided to concentrate on the single, "Heroes and Villains" – of which there must have been a dozen versions. The best version I heard, which was never completed, but at least I could see the form of it, was an A side B side version lasting about six minutes. It was a beautifully structured work; and Van Dyke was still very involved.”  Michael Vosse

If I was friends with Brian and he played me a session work tape with the 2/10/67 Cantina version followed by the Brian's 2/20/67 Gee & Variations test edit I'd think it was a 6-minute/two-sided single too!

The AFM Recording Contracts from the sessions.

It was used after the fact in June in the master for the released single, which wouldn't change its intention or status as for the #57045 "Side 2" master in January and/or late February and early March.  It was for side 2 when side 2 was being created but used a different way when the 2 sided single was dropped is how I assume it worked.

I disagree, not really like other songs and they were concurrent.  The #57020 master was recorded from December 19 through June 14, and the #57045 master was recorded from January 5 through March 2.

Luckily for us, it was Vosse who heard it and knew it was actually the two sides of an H&V single.  

Can no one reading this thread find their copy of the Preiss book?  Anyone volunteer to ask VDP about a two sided H&V single?

 

They are not listed as Part 2 in the sessionogrophy in the Smile Sessions book.  The only things listed as Part 2 (or similar) are:

I think Craig was trying to give some background with those notes, I believe this is the way they are actually logged by “Session No.” under “TITLE OF TUNES” by “Master No.” on the AFMs:

“Heroes and Villains - Part 2”: (“Side 2”): 1/5/67 (57045/Session # 14247)

“Heroes and Villains”: 1/27/67 (57020)
“Heroes and Villains”:  2/20/67 (57020)
“Heroes and Villains”: 2/20/67 (57020)
“Heroes and Villains”:  2/20/67 (57020)
“Heroes and Villains”: 2/20/67 (57020)

“Heroes and Villains - Part II”: 2/27/67 (57045/Session # 14247A)
“Heroes and Villains - Part II Insert”: 2/28/67 (57045/Session # 14247B)
“Heroes and Villains - Part II”: 3/1/67 (57045/Session # 14247C)
“Heroes and Villains, Part II (Insert)”: 3/2/67 (57045/Session # 14247D)

I think there is confusion between what is a title of a entire master and what is a numeric order note of a single section of a master.

1) Unless I am mistaken, there are no mentions of "side 1" anytime of master #57020 on the sessionogrophy or the call-out slates on the sessions themselves.  This would be an assumption.
2) Only one singular piece of master #57045 is called out as "Side 2", not the whole master.

I believe it is a fact that #57020 was from December 19 through to the released single and still is the master of the side 1 of the H&V single even without a single note about it being for the master for side 1, which makes it even more significant that the #57045 H&V Part 2 master is identified as “Side 2”. 
I believe that one note identifies the H&V Part 2 title, the #57045 master number, and the session number sequence 14247 through 14247D as “Side 2”.

According to the Sessionography, Barnyard had a master #56727 and I'm in Great Shape #56738.  Neither were apart of #57020.  And this was in October, when presumably they were a part of Heroes and Villains!  Also note that the first use of master #57045 was for the Bicycle Rider Chorus...  It was master #56729 (a part of Do You Like Worms) but was reassigned to 57045 for this purpose once it had vocals.  Then NO other work was done to it for nearly two months.  What does this tell us?  That master numbers were only temporary until the song was finished and parts were shifted.

   

As I’ve said the master numbers for H&V became consistent and consecutive beginning December 19 even as two separate concurrent masters from January 5 though March 2. The reason doesn't matter but I assume he worked on each master as he was able or inspired when he could, touring and studio availability were issues and there seems to be some consideration about how much of SMiLE to give away on side 2 of the H&V single.  Would that be more of a concern if you were going to give away a single song from the album or if you were giving away some sort of suite or sampler of modified tracks from several songs from the album?

We are chasing our tails because I've already laid out why this scenario is not probable.

I’m don’t feel like I’m chasing my tail (that could change), I disagree with your scenario.  It’s pretty simple and straightforward to me.

And as for Vosse, well, if I was friends with Brian and he played me a session work tape with the 2/10/67 Cantina version followed by the Brian's 2/20/67 Gee & Variations test edit I'd think it was a 6-minute/two-sided single too! 

“So, in the studio, things were going off and on: the album was moving very slowly, and it missed its Christmas release - so at that point they decided to concentrate on the single, "Heroes and Villains" – of which there must have been a dozen versions. The best version I heard, which was never completed, but at least I could see the form of it, was an A side B side version lasting about six minutes. It was a beautifully structured work; and Van Dyke was still very involved.”  Michael Vosse

Whatever he heard it must have included some or all of the master takes recorded for the “H&V – Part 2” “side 2” #57045 master for the H&V single. 

Someone could ask Van Dyke if he remembers anything about a two sided H&V single.

That's a coincidence because my copy has been missing for several years, it must be someplace but I've looked and can't find it.  Perhaps some board member with a copy could check?  My memory is that Britz was never quoted directly in the book . . .

Maybe our copies eloped.

My memory was a quote by Britz (or maybe Lockert) discussing how they had a finished cool two sided single which Brian remodeled into the released single. Aren't there quotes sort of isolated in boxes throughout that book? It seems like it was one of those.  It will be interesting to see how far off my memory is if someone has a copy that hasn't run off.

Also while it has been reported Britz said in an interview that there was a finished side 1 and 2 , does anyone have this interview in print or on line?  Because I've never seen it and since it seems to be used to support the two sided single theory unless someone can produce the quote I think it needs to be discounted as evidence - second hand " Britz said to someone at sometime" without a check able reference is not evidence that meets any kind of reliability test.

I can't find my copy but my memory is it was a quote in the Preiss book(could have been Lockert).

But the following three recordings from March '67 for the master #57045 (Fade Remake, Verse Remake, Organ Waltz) weren't logged as Part 2 or Part Two or Part II, just as Heroes and Villains, proper.  

So what that amounts to for all five individual sections of Master #57045, only two were connected to a "Part 2/Part Two/Part II" and only one connected to "Side 2".  Is that proof enough to connect all those dots and say Master 57045 = Side 2?  I'm sure you'll say 'yes' but statistically speaking there's only 1/5 probability that it's Side 2, and only 2/5 probability it's a Part 2.  The odds are not good.  

To me it all points to not only 'no' but that there was no "H&V Part II" that would exist as a flip-side to the Heroes and Villains single.  Only a second "part" of Heroes and Villains (if the verse and a capella sections are "Part 1") that Brian couldn't decide on: at first was I'm in Great Shape, then Bicycle Rider, then Cantina, then Gee and it's variations (which were also Parts 3 and 4), then finally a Chorus.  The Master numbers came, went, mislogged and reassigned; they are convenient, but not defining.  Any reference to "part" at all refers to sections of a song, rather than the A and B-side of a single.  

I think we're chasing our tails here.  

I'm not sure I'm following you but my understanding is the very late February and very early March sessions are all titled "H&V Part II" and for the #57045 master and they also share the master's session number (14247 through 14247D) for the H&V Part II master.  I presume if the master is marked as "Side 2" the sessions for that master would be for "Side 2", the same way the sessions and master takes for master #57020 were for side 1. At least it shows the intention at the time of the recording, Brian apparently changed his mind from his previous intentions occasionally ie. Barnyard, IIGS, cantina, and various numbered sections recorded for the side 1 master #57020.  "Part 2" in the title must not mean a second section of the titled track's master because one of the master takes with that "H&V - Part II" master title is also noted as an "intro".  

I don't think it is chasing our tail at all, it seems pretty clearly laid out, identified, and organized at the time to me.  We don't know how the two sided single ended up but Vosse said something like he pretty much knew what it was going to be, nearly finished, when he left in March and didn't Britz say they had a two sided H&V single actually finished?  The H&V side 2 isn't some fan-tasy pulled out of thin air by grasping for evidence, it had witnesses and is documented.  I'm kind of confused by the resistance to the evidence I guess.

Anyways, all subject to C-man's superior data of course.  

Just bumping this because there were 6 pages of outrage and finger pointing and I have to ask....

...did ANY of these people actually show up? Were they even invited? Was this a BS story from the start?

How much actually did happen?  If anything.

The H&V Part II/Side 2 #57045 was a sort of suite of bits of DYLW, The Elements, H&V #57020 (side 1), and TOMP  at least as the known tracks and documentation seem to indicate.  A suite of album track bits also makes sense of his February comment about trying to decide about what to put on H&V side 2 and maybe giving to much of the album away.

I haven't had time to do any homework but, yes, master numbers could change and be back dated and abandoned for new numbers but that isn't really what is going on with "H&V" #57020 beginning December 19 or "H&V-Part II" "Side 2" #57045 beginning January 5.  H&V Part II/Side 2 #57045 is a title of a track made up of sections recorded as master takes including an "intro" and what also might be something like a chorus and verse. Not a part 2/second part in the way cantina or any of the side 1 part twos for #57020 were sections. 

Anyways there is still more evidence for a two sided H&V single, even if Brian never mentioned it in an interview, than there is for many things SMiLE.  Vosse and Britz were both aware of it even if it wasn't published.

The first clue to me is the "Side 2" tapebox notation on takes toward a master take for a separate master separately titled Heroes and Villians - Part II. 

That title to me is the second clue; correct me if I'm wrong but it was not Brian's practice to create a new master and session number and new title including the part number (ie. Heroes and Villains - Part 2/II, master #57020 session #s 14236 through 14236D) for the second part, or third part, fourth part, of a separate master and title (ie. Heroes and Villains, master #57045, session #s 14247 through 14247R).

Confusing, I know.

I think both practice it, but Mike is very public about it and Al not so much.

I bet Brian stills practices TM but talks about it even less than Al, he was a devotee more than a year before any of the other Boys.

In your opinion.  Others (Alan Boyd among them) think otherwise.

Does Alan disagree?  I've never read or heard him comment on it.

Again, imo, the January 5 recordings were towards a master take for the master of the "side 2" track titled "Heroes and Villains Part II" and not recordings toward a master take of a second part ("part 2") for the master of the side 1 track titled "Heroes and Villians".  Two separate masters for two separate sides of a proposed two sided H&V single. Carry on. 

I agree with Stephen I think but we mainly experience a lot of it  differently because it was the soundtrack to our lives.  I didn't appreciate the surf songs the same way as the car songs and teen life songs I was living in Kansas in real time.

Actually the title is very specifically asked of and directed to those who did NOT "migrate" from Smiley.

Well, I happen to disagree with your opinions in regards to CD's posts. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

Agreed.

Heh, heh. myKe luHv and His Band of Imposters will, I assume, play any venue if the bucks are right. That and all the exposure the attention starved lovester can round up. Sounds like a big, bad load of publicity that will put another nail in his already lousy legacy.

Yep. Yet I don't think they'd *just* be doing it for money or exposure. I have little doubt that both Mike and Bruce would be legitimately enthusiastic about playing in support of Trump.

Shaking my head.

Beach Boys' (Grand Old) Party! = barf

Heh, heh. myKe luHv and His Band of Imposters will, I assume, play any venue if the bucks are right. That and all the exposure the attention starved lovester can round up. Sounds like a big, bad load of publicity that will put another nail in his already lousy legacy.

Yep. Yet I don't think they'd *just* be doing it for money or exposure. I have little doubt that both Mike and Bruce would be legitimately enthusiastic about playing in support of Trump.

Shaking my head.

Beach Boys' (Grand Old) Party! = barf

It is just as I said unless you don't count his previous two posts and count his third post as his first, I guess.

If it were anybody else I wouldn't bait OSD or anyone over something first untrue and second hypothetical. Nothing ever said on a message board has ever ruined my enjoyment of the music. It is just a discussion and no one has to give a hypothetical answer to a hypothetical question, especially an off-topic one.  It does seem awfully hard to get an answer to a relevant question though.

Not only do I not love and worship Trump, but I guess you missed a post where I said previously on the board that I am not at all a Trump supporter so I'm not sure where you got that idea. My judgement is as clear as it gets anymore, thanks for your concern, but please don't try to make this into something it's not.

I just love how you use the same words I've used and turn it against me. The level of maturity is outstanding. Bravo, good sir.

You're right...I did miss the first post CD made. My bad.  Still don't see what is wrong with his post (referring to CD's). As Mike and (especially) Bruce are staunch republicans, why *wouldn't* they be enthusiastic about playing a show in support of Trump? Nothing wrong with that, either.

Nothing ever said on a message board has ever ruined my enjoyment of the music. It is just a discussion and no one has to give a hypothetical answer to a hypothetical question, especially an off-topic one.

It only seems to be off-topic and hypothetical when it's something you don't want to answer. And no, you don't have to answer (this is a message board, not the Spanish Inquisition).  Just seems to be funny how your opinion on that seems to change depending on whether you are asking the question or someone is asking you. If it's something you support, than it's relevant. Otherwise it's off-topic and hypothetical.

Yeah, your maturity level is right up there too. I don't know what their political affiliations are and I don't care either.  The conclusions drawn on this topic were wrong as Marty pointed out.

You were wrong about my politics and I've explained my opinion and my reasons on questions and answers and I disagree with your opinions of me and them. Your own opinions and the things you choose to answer and ignore are a mystery to me too old message board friend.

However highly unlikely it might be, one good thing that might come of a scenario like this is that the other BRI shareholders could finally move to exert some modicum of control over how the live band name is used, beyond simply collecting the licensing fee.

I really, really hope you are correct.

The Beach Boys brand name does not need Trump to be associated with it.

Heh, heh. myKe luHv and His Band of Imposters will, I assume, play any venue if the bucks are right. That and all the exposure the attention starved lovester can round up. Sounds like a big, bad load of publicity that will put another nail in his already lousy legacy.

Yep. Yet I don't think they'd *just* be doing it for money or exposure. I have little doubt that both Mike and Bruce would be legitimately enthusiastic about playing in support of Trump.

Shaking my head.

Beach Boys' (Grand Old) Party! = barf

It is just as I said unless you don't count his previous two posts and count his third post as his first, I guess.

If it were anybody else I wouldn't bait OSD or anyone over something first untrue and second hypothetical. Nothing ever said on a message board has ever ruined my enjoyment of the music. It is just a discussion and no one has to give a hypothetical answer to a hypothetical question, especially an off-topic one.  It does seem awfully hard to get an answer to a relevant question though.

Not only do I not love and worship Trump, but I guess you missed a post where I said previously on the board that I am not at all a Trump supporter so I'm not sure where you got that idea. My judgement is as clear as it gets anymore, thanks for your concern, but please don't try to make this into something it's not.