Also, there were actually no finished Smile covers ever prepared. There were almost 500,000 slicks manufactured (and subsequently buried), but as far as I'm aware there was never a final version of the rear cover printed, although there are a few mock-ups kicking around. So there would have been nothing on  which to paste the Smiley image, sadly.

Just so I understand the meaning of the word "slick"... does a slick imply that it was a printed artwork paper that was affixed to a cardboard LP cover? Or is it just the outer paper without it having been affixed to a cardboard sleeve?

Secondly, what do we know about these slicks being "buried"? How much of that is conjecture and assumption versus actual fact that we know?

While it has been over 50 years, part of me wonders if there couldn't be a project much like the angry video game nerd guy who was actually able to figure out where many thousands of defunct Atari ET video games were buried!  They were actually dug up after tremendous amount of research.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/arstechnica.com/gaming/2015/08/881-e-t-cartridges-buried-in-new-mexico-desert-sell-for-107930-15/%3famp=1

 I think the odds of that happening here are extremely slim but it does make me wonder if it's even remotely possible to find out where they were buried and if any still exist in a landfill (I realize of course that paper degrades much faster than plastic cartridges, but one still wonders).

A "slick" is the paper artwork before it's been glued to the cardboard structure that forms the basis for the cover. One slick for the front, one for the back (which, for Capitol covers, folds over the spine & the upper/lower seams). As the rear slick was never mass-produced, there are no finished covers. It's a shame, but it's one less thing to spend a fortune on (and having spent a fortune on an original slick some time ago, that comes as some relief).

I first read (in a piece written by AGD that appeared in the UK Stomp fanzine circa 1985) that 99.99% of the slicks & booklets were sent to landfill. I assume this was taken from Capitol memos that may well be reproduced in LLVS. I will dig it out later if I get the chance. I understand they were sent to a facility in Scranton, if you want to start digging, though I don't know if they were shredded &/or pulped beforehand.

Reminds me a bit of this story too:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-55658942

Let's all head out to Scranton and bring our shovels!

Seriously though, I think the odds are any of them still exist in a landfill are extremely low, maybe as remote as the odds are of the Leonard Bernstein Brian outtakes surfacing.

Thanks for the info about the slicks. I think that would make them even more fragile, considering they are just flimsy paper and not even connected to cardboard. The only way I could see any of them surviving is if some of them got covered up and were piled under tons of other stuff and didn't get too sunbaked/damaged, but I will freely admit that the odds of anything like that lasting for six decades must be extremely remote. And I certainly have no idea about how trash gets saved/recycled/moved around landfills, particularly in decades of the past.

Still, one wonders. Stranger things have happened. It is utterly shocking that they were able to find those ET Atari cartridges after 35 years!

There was a one-track promo CD single. I had it for a long time and eventually sold it because it's one of the worst songs in their catalog, and I never listened to it, and it's on a million fan-made compilations in pristine CD quality.

But yeah, a promo CD is out there.

I don't think I realized until now that the song was solely written by Terry Melcher.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that's the only song in the entire catalog of the band that Terry wrote on his own without any cowriters?

And secondly, it's probably the only instance in the entire catalog where an outside producer both completely wrote and produced a song for the band (the same guy, a one-man show for both sole writing and production credit).

I shouldn't like it, but the song remains a guilty pleasure for me because of Carl's lead vocal, plus the wordless group vocals that happen during the section where the lyrics are "first you'll be married, with kids after a while" ever so briefly sound like Classic 1960s Beach Boys,  much in the way there are some group vocals on Island Girl that surprisingly do, too.

I've never thought of Al's penchant for taking a million years to complete things (and then re-re-re-re-doing them even after they're released) as being an outgrowth of anything to do with Brian. I mean, anything is possible.

I think Al is just super-super-duper indecisive, and once he wasn't working within the framework of a BB project where *some other* person or persons were pushing the thing forward and telling him (and others) "okay, that's a wrap, you're finished!", he was left to his own devices twiddling away at projects for years and decades.

Even projects with a seeming relative sense of urgency have taken forever. Al getting his "Live in Las Vegas" late 1999 live album out before the end of 2001 was like lighting speed for him.

He talked of his solo album for a decade-plus after being squeezed out of the touring BBs in 1998, and it wasn't until 2010 that his album seemingly just kind of meandered out with little fanfare, eventually getting a stronger push in 2012.

I think when Al has someone bankrolling and running a project, he's more likely to get something done.

Considering he wasn't touring full time after 1997, and had his own lavish studio to record, he should have released like *ten* solo projects by now at least. A couple sets of his demos, some more live stuff, and at least three or four "proper" albums.

The only thing I don't know is how much he's had someone working with him trying to push him. I know he has some associates (Stevie Heger, Larry Dvoskin), but I don't know if those types of folks are really trying to pitch Al to fully produce Al for an album, to "crack the whip" a bit and get something done. Larry Dvoskin seems like a really nice guy, but he'd be doing both Al and fans a favor by not trying to *still* push "Waves of Love" after 37 years after we've all already heard it.

Remember a few years ago in an interview where Al revealed he was considering a new recording of....wait for it.... "Runaway"?!?

I guess perhaps Al quitting the band in early 1962 might be considered as evidence of indecisiveness in his personality. Although it's easy to say that in hindsight, at the time it might not have seemed like a bad idea to get out if he didn't think the band was really going to go anywhere.

Certainly I'm sure the fact that I'll has non-linear editing at his disposal makes indecision an even easier thing to happen. If he were dealing solely with tape, he might have had to make decisions without endless tweaking.

I think that being in the shadow of the Wilsons perhaps is some unconscious motivator in him trying to make things as perfect as they can be, as opposed to just letting things be.

I like the synth sound, it's tastefully done for most of the album. It only lacks the creativity of Brian's use of synthesizers on BW88 and especially Love You (the latter being from a completely different era of synthesizers, I know). There seems to be consensus that Carl's songs are the highlights here. In terms of singing, yes, I agree, but in terms of songwriting I don't agree at all, they're all a bit too easy on the ears for me; nicely done but a little boring. I think Brian's It's Just a Matter of Time and I'm So Lonely both had great potential and those are the ones I find myself coming back to. California Calling is sort of a guilty pleasure but I actually like that one too.

Brian's songs are just too simple on this album, and while at times his sort of subdued, almost disinterested vocal tone (something like the bridge of "Crack at Your Love") is interesting and weirdly engaging, overall his performance on the recordings of his own songs don't elevate the simplistic compositions.

"It's Just a Matter of Time" is literally that same doowop chord progression from a million songs. "I'm So Lonely" is not quite as simplistic, but not by much. I enjoy Brian's mournful vocal, and I enjoy that it does feel very "Brian". But this still isn't nearly as engaging as Carl's more mature, melodically and structurally more interesting tracks.

The songs I've found I come back to on the album are Carl's "It's Gettin' Late", "Maybe I Don't Know", and "Where I Belong", and "Passing Friend" and "I Do Love You", both from outside writers.

"Getcha Back" is fine; though kind of a rewrite of "Don't Worry Baby", and with a weirdly sparse, demo-like production sound. "California Calling" is, well, we know what that sound/style is. Bruce's "She Believes In Love Again" sounds like a bland knock-off of a David Foster/Chicago mid-80s track. Not horrible, but sub-par compared to Carl's songs. "Crack at Your Love" probably has Brian's best lead vocal bit on the album on that bridge portion, but an okay if unoriginal song is bogged down by a literally laughable title and the cheesiest production on the album. Also, while Al had and has a great voice, he sounds truly constipated and stilted on the lead on this one for some strange reason.

Beyond the two already-discussed Brian songs, "Male Ego" is another very "Brian" sounding song. I like that about it. The lyrics are dumb meathead lyrics trying, I guess, to masquerade as confessional, something. I don't know. The title and lyrics are kind of embarrassing and dumb, but the music is enjoyable in its "Brian-ness", and is kind of the prototype for what we heard on the BW '88 album.

The album has great group lead and harmony vocals, even on the dumb songs, and even if some of the vocals got a synth assist.

I've often tried to wrap my head around the idea of Mike singing about "Ego" on Male Ego... that *had* to have been some sort of in joke between Brian and Mike as a reference going back to Hang Onto Your Ego... where it's like Mike now finally in his 40s is willing to sing about ego, is willing to admit in a song lyric that he has an ego (unless he's singing about someone else as opposed to himself), as long as the drug references are stripped. I cannot conceive these thoughts between the 2 BBs Ego songs didn't cross Brian or Mike's head at the time, maybe it was them trying to poke fun at the real arguments of the past and make amends, I dunno.

I like Crack at Your Love, but mainly for the comically overused Brian chord change that has been recycled so many times before/after, in songs like Child of Winter, Summer of Love, etc.

It had to have been a bit shocking and sad to fans to hear that the 2 songs Brian wrote for the album are (IMHO) among the weakest on the album. I attribute that to whatever dysfunction Brian was going through during the Landy era.

Just realized the press release blurb kind of makes it sounds like "Waves of Love" was re-recorded by Larry Dvoskin, as if Dvoskin is performing it. I'm sure this is still the same Al recording, just remixed of course, perhaps with some new overdubs.

It'll be interesting to see if either of these are any different from the versions that were up on Dvoskin's SoundCloud that a number of folks were able to grab.

I don't understand why Al and Dvoskin keep trying to push this song. It's a good song. But we're now at three going on *five* mixes of the song. It's a song from the 90s that was already released in 2012. It has had it's day.

Surely Al has recorded other songs at this studio in the last 40+ years that he could push instead?

I won't keep ranting about this. I'm like the biggest Al fan, and I *know* he's got stuff in his vaults (and we're talking clear *solo* stuff outside of any old BB stuff) that he could be putting out.

I'm waiting for the announcement that b-sides for the single will include "Loop De Loop", "Susie Cincinnati", and "PT Cruiser."

Al has turned into SMiLE era Brian Wilson in terms of indecisiveness of choosing and settling on a final mix, and the impossibility of finally being done with a released song.

Seriously, I wonder if watching Brian go through that had some profound psychological effect on Al, or if maybe it has something more to do with just a never-ending question wanting to make the mix "perfect" perhaps due to feelings of inadequacy compared to the Wilsons. I don't mean any disrespect to Al - I can completely understand the concept of feeling like he had better make something sound GOOD when having been surrounded for decades by the towering genius of the Wilsons, but yeah this whole "Ver 2.0" thing is all a bit over-the-top and comical at this point. Along with Santa Goes to Kokomo, it's the sequel nobody ever asked for  

Also, there were actually no finished Smile covers ever prepared. There were almost 500,000 slicks manufactured (and subsequently buried), but as far as I'm aware there was never a final version of the rear cover printed, although there are a few mock-ups kicking around. So there would have been nothing on  which to paste the Smiley image, sadly.

Just so I understand the meaning of the word "slick"... does a slick imply that it was a printed artwork paper that was affixed to a cardboard LP cover? Or is it just the outer paper without it having been affixed to a cardboard sleeve?

Secondly, what do we know about these slicks being "buried"? How much of that is conjecture and assumption versus actual fact that we know?

While it has been over 50 years, part of me wonders if there couldn't be a project much like the angry video game nerd guy who was actually able to figure out where many thousands of defunct Atari ET video games were buried!  They were actually dug up after tremendous amount of research.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/arstechnica.com/gaming/2015/08/881-e-t-cartridges-buried-in-new-mexico-desert-sell-for-107930-15/%3famp=1

 I think the odds of that happening here are extremely slim but it does make me wonder if it's even remotely possible to find out where they were buried and if any still exist in a landfill (I realize of course that paper degrades much faster than plastic cartridges, but one still wonders).

Perhaps the propmaster was an early internet adopter who saw the long tail of people like us ruminating over this 30 some odd years later.

I think you nailed it 

I never would've thought that Jennifer Connelly would share the screen with The Beach Boys, but in the 1991 film Career Opportunities, it actually happened:




This movie was shot at a Target store in late 1989. It looks like there are not one but possibly two Beach Boys tapes there; they look like cheapie budget compilations which were common back then. I wonder if anybody can make out what specifically they were.

Looks like the Young Einstein soundtrack is there right above Made In USA too.



Roll and rock to the rescue

That's an awesome discovery.  I saw Young Einstein in the theater in first run when I was a kid.

A classic for sure. Wish some of the repertory houses around here would give it some screen time. By the time I first saw it the soundtrack was rather hard to find. Somehow this came up in front of my 12th grade English teacher years later and he was nice enough to burn a copy for me. Eventually found the cassette at an Ohio Goodwill during a Tim Horton's run.

I need to work on this rambling thing. That wall of tapes from Career Opportunities is a decent seek and find puzzle.

It's an interesting movie, last I checked it was still on Amazon Prime. Not a great film by any means but an interesting time capsule. Honestly probably the worst of the "teenage" films that was scripted by John Hughes, but it still has some cool dated weirdo nuggets about it.

As GF pointed out, I wonder how the tape got misplaced in that section! Perhaps it was somebody who worked in the set dressing department who put it there on purpose if they were a BBs fan, to give the band some tiny smidge of screen time.

I never would've thought that Jennifer Connelly would share the screen with The Beach Boys, but in the 1991 film Career Opportunities, it actually happened:




This movie was shot at a Target store in late 1989. It looks like there are not one but possibly two Beach Boys tapes there; they look like cheapie budget compilations which were common back then. I wonder if anybody can make out what specifically they were.

Looks like the Young Einstein soundtrack is there right above Made In USA too.



Roll and rock to the rescue

That's an awesome discovery.  I saw Young Einstein in the theater in first run when I was a kid.

The Beach Boys and Santana both played Knebworth in 1980.

Interesting. It's entirely possible the stock footage is from 1980 then, despite it being used in a section of the documentary talking about the mid '70s.

Just watched the newly-produced true crime series "The Ripper" on Netflix, and to my surprise I saw a BBs poster:



This is during a shot of stock footage of a man walking in what I presume to be the UK in the 1970s. Looks like this was a gig with with Santana, can anybody idea the show and its date?

I'm all for a free and open forum for debate and discussion, and giving everyone a chance to say their thing, but I'm going to lock this thread tomorrow. So say what you need to say, try to keep it civil and above board, and that will be it for this one after tomorrow.  

Probably just as well.  And for the record Century - again it's not my intention to pick on you too much nor do I even have any real problem with you.  Sometimes I just like getting into the spirit of the debate.  Definitely not personal.

It's cool, and thanks. I don't take it personally, I just wish peace and love to you and everybody on this board as well as the band. The dark side of the force needs to take a hike.

Conclusion: I think you are totally making a much bigger deal out of these things than necessary.  

You're free to think that, and perhaps to some degree I am. Maybe you are underestimating things as well. Maybe the truth falls somewhere in the middle. Hell if either of us can say for sure. I still contend that the concept of long term decay and death (or diminishment) by 1000 cuts can happen over time, silently, in any number of ways that are not necessarily immediately obvious, despite your desire to have instant gratification piles of massive evidence. I care because the music matters to me very much, that is all.

This is all ultimately a matter of how repulsive one feels about Trump and one's favorite band's repeated connection to him. I'm sure if Mike started flying swastikas at BBs shows, you might not think that people who take issue with that are making a bigger deal out of things than necessary. Right? That would cross a line with you, right?  I'm always curious where people's lines are. Everyone must have a line somewhere, no?

It ultimately all depends on how big or small a gap one sees between repeated Trump support involving the brand name (against the wishes of 2 members - and probably against the wishes of 4 members if 2 deceased ones were living) and a hypothetical scenario I've just described.  I don't mean to turn this into a political debate, but there's no way to divorce political views/opinions from a discussion of how big a deal (or not big a deal) one sees the connection as. And how one thinks history will view Trump and will view his ardent supporters, and how that could impact the band's legacy on future generations. Minimize these fears away, as I'm sure you will.  I simply prefer not to have stains of this magnitude on the legacy of my favorite band.

The Trump/BBs connection is either gonna deeply repulse someone to the core to the swastika level, or it's not. Or somewhere between. As I said earlier, your mileage may vary. You clearly think this is merely an insignificant blip and no big deal and I won't be able to change your mind so I'll stop trying to even meet you halfway. It's OK, no hard feelings. We just won't agree on this.

Nothing as polarizing as Trump should EVER have come within contact of the brand name, that's the only certainty in this whole mess.

Believe it or not folks but you can care about the band's legacy while simultaneously being confident that it remains strong and unwavering.

Again we'll have to agree to disagree. I personally know actual human beings (not hypothetical imaginary people) who have soured to the band/brand as a result of the endless barrage of Trump stuff. Those people who are turned off to the brand DO exist (it gives me zero pleasure to state that sad fact), so it's not possible to quantify the reputation as unwavering. I'm assuming those people are merely insignificant imbeciles in your book and couldn't possibly be indicative of a being a portion of other like-minded fans too,  because you'll say there haven't been mass boycotts or people marching in the street during a pandemic, etc to prove there has been any damage done.

I admit that everyone has their own social media bubble/echo chamber, and I am not above that myself (neither are you), but trust me when I tell you that there are people out there who feel this way. Trust me when I tell you that the concept of people who are not yet fans of an artist who will just dismiss that artist outright because of the artist's well-known disastrous political views/unhinged narcissism, exist. I will certainly agree these people absolutely aren't the majority of fans of this band. The band/brand has plenty of bedrock fans who don't care, and now will probably gain fans from the extreme right/Proud Boys crowd. So if you're OK with that, and with the idea of people being turned off to the brand in advance of becoming fans, if that doesn't bother you one bit and you want to just give your middle finger to those people, then the brand will be "OK" and there's nothing more to discuss.

I'm not trying to be a downer, but I don't want to live in the land of make-believe either. Do I think the brand will now shrivel up and die? No. Will hardcore and plenty of other casual fans stick around? Yep. But I think there's still harm that's been done. Maybe those folks who I know are in the minority of fans and simply "don't matter" in your view, but neither you nor I have any way of quantifying the number of people who this could effect.  All in all it's just another revenue stream of decay for the brand.

The only thing we can bicker about is the quantity of people this can effect, we cannot argue about the fact that the repeated Trump connection DOES and HAS affected some fans. I'm not making up the people of which I speak of, they're real.  I hate rehashing this, I'm only responding because I feel it's folly to just dismiss the truth. All we can dispute is the degree to which this hurts the brand, not if it hurts the brand.  

What exactly is the purpose of this thread? It was marked as a "General On Topic Discussion" thread yet last I checked Toby Keith has f***-all to do with The Beach Boys. Last I checked there is no written or verifiable record of Mike Love ever stating that he wanted an award from Donald Trump. And yes, I'm sure I could get an essay full of "what-ifs" and straw-man arguments that point toward Mike Love working his hardest at trying to get this award, but in the end it is all pure speculation.

And with that said, for someone so concerned about The Beach Boys being tarnished by being associated with Donald Trump, CD, you sure are trying hard to further escalate that association here.

I'm annoyed at Mike for the crap he's done throughout the years. I was greatly annoyed by Mike's playing the Trophy Hunter gig. I'm annoyed at Mike for associating this beautiful and spiritual music with the toilet water of politics. But I also don't understand the point of this thread - if one is worried about fans being turned off by Mike's association with Trump, why create a thread (on the most popular Beach Boys forum ever) that further discusses Mike's association with Trump?

If Mike actually got an award I would completely understand if a thread were made (much like I was a huge opponent of Mike's actions in the Trophy Hunter thread). But no award was given to Mike. Mike hasn't publicly stated animosity towards Toby Keith. If we're annoyed about Trump being associated with The Beach Boys perhaps it would be wise to not further create agitation by posting scenarios and speculation about Trump's association with The Beach Boys.

I'm not trying to escalate the association, though I understand how you might feel it came across that way. I'm more just horrified by the association is all. I'm not particularly fond of censoring my feelings on the matter, but yes I do understand and respect what you are saying. I'm just worried about what this all means for the future. Anyway, I certainly hope fans will look past that association, even though I fear that a sizeable amount won't.

And I'm going to just be brutally honest: just because Love supported an unpopular President and played a show for an unpopular group does not mean that he actually did anything objectively wrong, no matter how we may feel about it.  There are far worse things that Mike could be doing that could bring considerable damage to the brand name; these things are ultimately trivial.

If Trump flat out said "I could give a sh*t about Black/LGBTQ rights", "Hitler was vastly misunderstood and wasn't really such a bad guy", etc, - would Mike repeatedly supporting that person publicly be something you'd qualify as an objectively wrong action? All in all, it really depends on how one sees Trump, if they feel these are giant (or not-all-that-giant) leaps in logic from where Trump currently stands, and if they're not of the opinion that hateful rhetoric is a very serious thing with very serious potential consequences.  If one feels any of this stuff is even slightly in the ballpark of Trump, they may feel extraordinarily icky with this brand having repeated connections to it, and perhaps it can be better understood why the line got crossed for some people.

And like I said with my example earlier of people being turned off to an artist so much PRIOR to having given their music a chance, prior to being a fan, that they won't even bother... well that's an actual thing that happens. I can personally attest that it happens. It's not some super rare occurrence. One doesn't need to be a political extremist or zealout in order for this to happen, it's human nature sometimes.

I can give you a list of artists who are famous, who I've never listened to their music before (who I'm well aware of their actions/views which deeply don't jive with mine, to put it lightly) who I would simply choose to never give the time of day to due to the eww factor. They don't have the advantage of me having gotten emotionally invested in their music beforehand. I've never sat down and listened to a Ted Nugent, Kanye West, Gary Glitter album. Maybe there's great music I'm leaving on the table, but you know what? I'm ok with that. There's soooo much music out there, why would I push myself to try to emotionally connect to something by someone who already has planted that seed of being a total POS? So your comment "were they really fans to begin with" holds no water, because I'm talking about people whose fandom was stopped before it ever even started.

I personally certainly don't need every musician or actor to have views that are the same as mine, it's silly to expect that, and there's a huge spectrum... I'm no political extremist either. YET there's nevertheless a line that can get crossed - EVERY or nearly every person/fan/potential fan has that line. Your mileage may vary. But you can't pretend that this is some minimal, insignificant concept. Yes the BBs brand is always going to have a bedrock of fans who won't go anywhere, but the fans who are perhaps the ones the FF set might get new fans into - those potential fans are probably the most at risk for shunning the brand, or at least having the amount of fandom lessened to some degree. And that sucks. All this does, ultimately, is further the "Brian rules, Mike sucks" narrative too, which is remarkable because that narrative seems to be Mike's kryptonite which he nevertheless keeps pathologically egging on.

I googled “biggest jerks in rock and roll” and one site actually has John Lennon at #1, stating his abuse of his first wife among other things.  I don’t think the Beatles legacy has been severely damaged, nevertheless.

Keep in mind, while not defending any of that, and while it's apples and oranges to compare the two men and their behaviors, you're referring to events of 55+ years in the past, as opposed to an ongoing series of obviously completely different reputation-damaging behavior that continues repeatedly over time, which unfortunately coincides with media amplification and scrutiny during the digital age time period in which those events are occurring. Meaning, if John had lived and what you mentioned was something newly happening in 2021, you could better believe the 21st century heat he and the brand would endure would be off the charts.  Once again, not looking to compare Mike to John or their behaviors, but the concept is that the damages that legacies endure can be impacted by many factors including time period and frequency, and apologies or lack thereof, etc. etc.

Realistically speaking, sadly, Dennis' name is rarely mentioned in big media articles without a reminder that he had a Manson connection. That unfortunate connection (which of course he deeply regretted) is forever linked, just as Mike's will be to Trump. It's low hanging fruit. Blame it on clickbait or whatever you want, but ultimately that will be forever a stain on the legacy. One Mike/Trump show/connection might have made that fade quicker, but by golly Mike's many repeated Trump connections ensured that he LOVED to be associated with Trump, and Mike wanted the public to know that even as late as NYE 2021 after Trump had been voted out of office, during the time period when Mike's buddy Trump was planting the seeds for what would 6 days later be an insurrection. Mike wanted the world to know that even at that late date, he was still A-OK with publicly supporting Trump at an indoor maskless show. With Vanilla Freaking Ice. Crapping on the legacy.

It's too soon to really quantify the damage, only time will tell. Mind you, this whole thing only makes me incredibly sad, and I hate to see my favorite band repeatedly associated with Trump and dragged through the mud.

This is SUCH a cool thread.

Side questions - did the band lug their gear at all during this time period? Or did they by this point have roadies who took care of all that?

And was the reverb tank the only effects unit the band used at the time? Would be interesting to know all the various guitar effects the band used during live shows throughout the years, especially the 60s.

At some point, which is another great question as to exactly when, they recruited their friend Ron Swallow to be a roadie (and erstwhile studio tambourinist).

Were Brian/Al/Carl ever using picks onstage at this point (and what brand)? Or just finger picking/strumming?

It sure would be fascinating to get a full-on detailed rundown of what things would have been like on the day of a show for these guys back then. No cell phones, no group text reminders, just hoping that everyone would show up on time, maybe they all met up at someone's house (Brian's?) and carpooled to shows? Or maybe for a local Hollywood Bowl show, they'd each go in their own cars. Every morsel of info regarding what this must've been like back then fascinates me to no end.

The earliest ad I can think of is this one, funnily enough from well after Carl had stopped playing the Jaguar, and well before he picked up his late 60s Tele...

Mike looks a bit sad, wondering when there's gonna be a tambourine ad which he can be at the forefront of 

Can you actually point to any objective evidence that anything Mike has said or done in the last few years including his association with Trump has had any direct negative impact on the Beach Boys name?  Has there been a significant drop in album sales and online streaming of their music?  Have there been any "ban Beach Boys" rallies where folks are burning their records?  And on this very message board have there been any regulars who have recently sworn off the band and left the forum over Mike's actions?  My guess of course is the answer is a firm no.  So perhaps we should drop the irrational "sky is falling" hysteria and be a little more level-headed about this.  

And Trump isn't even a Beach Boy.  Hell, he's not even a President anymore (...zing!!!).  

We'll never agree on this, so we'll just have to agree to disagree I suppose. I personally know people (actual people, not hypothetical ones) who are disgusted by the Mike/BBs/Trump connection, and won't support the band/brand anymore as a result. I haven't done a formal polling of fans to see how widespread this is, no. One need only look at *any* comments section from *any* publication (Rolling Stone, Variety, etc.) that mentions The Beach Boys, and it can be articles that are about BB subject matter that is not directly related to Mike/Trump, and you'll see plenty of reminders of that connection - and that omnipresent reminder (which Mike keeps inflaming like gasoline on the fire with his repeated connections, refusal to skip playing the trophy hunting gig, etc) can be regularly seen by fans who might just be budding BBs fans, but can get GROSSLY turned off by that connection.  

That connection won't go away. Maybe if we're lucky it will fade with time, but Mike is only helping to prevent that fading from happening by continually keeping up that connection. By playing maskless indoor shows at Mar-a-Lago. Because he's such a tough guy and can't relent or back down at all. Big tough guy Mike Love. And yeah, his silence on the insurrection much like his silence on Don Jr. sh*t-talking Brian speaks volumes.

There are plenty of artists who have questionable political views, and fans of course simply have to decide if those views are abhorrent enough to warrant disinterest in that artist. Usually, it's some views that may be shite, but can more easily be overlooked. But again, with Mike, it's the repeated over-and-over-and-over again ties to Trump that have really made that connection unshakable for a not insignificant amount of fans. I don't have numbers, nor does anyone, but common sense tells me this is not good for the brand.

If you think the Mike/Trump stuff won't be affecting the chances of a hypothetical 60th anniversary reunion, or won't at least taint it for plenty of people should such a reunion happen, I don't think you're seeing the big picture here. Just because the BBs train keeps on rolling along, there's plenty of modern day damage/rot/decay happening to the brand, which is ALL due to Mike, which has longterm effects, and it's extraordinarily unfortunate.  If ONE fan is lost due to this garbage, it's one fan too many.

And if you think this subject is somehow not on the minds of PR people associated with the band/brand/FF box/60th reunion, I'm certain you'd be wrong.

If you think that an artist's bad actions can't be a hindrance to fandom, you're 100% wrong. I have friends who are big, huge fans of Kanye West. I have not listened to his music, but after reading about his massive narcissism and abhorrent antics, I have no interest in giving his music a chance or listening to one note of it. I'm sure plenty of would-be BBs fans would fall into that same category. I'm grandfathered into BBs fandom, my emotional connection to the BBs music was forged deeply long ago, so it's rather impossible for me to simply give up on the music. But there's plenty of grey area of fans who are moderate to big fans (not superfan level) who will probably shun all things Mike Love now (which includes the brand), and again it doesn't take much energy for some would-be fan (who is yet to be emotionally invested in the band's music) to shun it more easily by being understandably grossly turned off by Mike. To think this is simply not happening is to be an ostrich. Of course it is. Like I said, I know actual people who fall into this category.  I'm sure the numbers are more than just a handful of folks.

It doesn't take much effort to cut off would-be fans' fandom at the knees, and to at minimum dampen fandom for others who were more deeply into the music already. I'd sure like to tell friends of mine who are budding fans to give a listen to Sunshine Tomorrow to hear how Mike really was a solid lyricist moreso than he gets credit for. I'd sure like to say "give Mike a chance!", but yeah... plenty of people won't want to give Mike the time of day now. Call it "their loss" all you want, but it's a problem that's not going to go away with the brand. 

This is SUCH a cool thread.

Side questions - did the band lug their gear at all during this time period? Or did they by this point have roadies who took care of all that?

And was the reverb tank the only effects unit the band used at the time? Would be interesting to know all the various guitar effects the band used during live shows throughout the years, especially the 60s.

As I've debated with you before on this, while I would agree somewhat that Mike certainly has said and done things that haven't helped the Beach Boys' overall reputation, I don't think he's really tarnished it either.  At least not nearly as much as some folks would like to believe.  The band is still generally well-received and highly regarded as innovators by both fans and critics alike.  I really believe the only people that actually take too much notice of Love's theatrics are the die-hards like us who obsess endlessly over everything the band does.  I'm highly skeptical that the general public of today is paying too much attention to the antics of a near-80 year old of a 60-year-old band.  And I'd find it laughably silly if anyone stopped listening to the band as a whole over anything Love does today.  

The whole "cancel culture" thing has grown to be hopelessly stupid anyway.  Obviously most of us would understandably rather distance ourselves from people who are objectively hateful (nazi's, white supremacists, etc.), but none of the admittedly stupid things Love has said and done come anywhere close to that.   If folks are so thin-skinned that they must disassociate with anything outside their own echo chamber, that's their intolerance.  Mike's relationship with Trump may very well be a liability for him especially after what happened in D.C. a few weeks ago, but I don't see it at all as a "death sentence" for the Beach Boys as a whole.  Mike's been polarizing from the start; this is nothing new.  If the recently deceased Phil Spector has taught us anything, it's that sometimes you have to separate the artist from the art.  

The reason why I feel the Trump association is damaging (more so than you feel) is the sheer quantity of times the brand keeps REPEATEDLY being associated with Trump (during the time when Trump was a political figure), over and over and over again. Just look at the list I compiled at the start of this thread; there may be even more associations that I'm overlooking.  

It's not just a one-off or even a two-off. It's like Mike reminding the world HE HAS A GIANT HARD ON FOR TRUMP AND WANTS THE BRAND ASSOCIATED WITH TRUMP, MAKE NO MISTAKE.

That's the troubling part. I mean, I'd be troubled with one association, but there are MANY and this has gotten drilled into the heads of many people. I do have some issues with cancel culture, yet I also understand that people don't want to pad the pockets of someone who is/has directly supporting/supported Trump in a big way, nearly as big and high profile a way as *any* entertainer has done over the last 4 years. If Mike wanted to stake a claim to owning the role of someone who would keep being associated with Trump more than any other entertainer (or at least give dbags like Kid Rock and Ted Nugent a run for their money), he's certainly doing all he can to claim that title with a long list. And sadly, the brand too, by association.

No matter how one looks at it, it's deeply unfortunate that plenty of people won't want to touch the brand or at minimum support any future shows with Mike (such as a hypothetical 60th anniversary show) as a result of this. You can say "their loss" all you want, but it's Mike's fault that he unnecessarily brought this on himself. Feel free to minimize that quantity of fans or how much you think their thoughts matter (or don't matter) all you want - it still sucks, and it didn't have to happen. And yes, now the insurrection is associated with Trump. Mike didn't say a peep when Don Jr. sh*t-talked Brian, nor did Mike distance himself from Trump after that terrible fiasco, nor do I expect him to in the future. Don't Back Down.

I'm sure Feel Flows will get stellar reviews once it comes out, but I'll bet you that IF any major publication *omits* mentioning the awful, repeated Trump connection in any at-length writeup, it will be because some behind-the-scenes PR person begged/pleaded/bartered for this to not be mentioned. In other words, I don't think the stink of the Trump connection is leaving the brand anytime soon, and we'll be *lucky* if some smart, proactive PR people can get that connection omitted from FF (or reunion) writeups once the brand gets in the news again for this box set or any hypothetical reunion. Even if gets omitted in some places (it surely won't be omitted from all publications across the board), you can bet your bottom dollar many, many fans won't forget.

At the very moment Trump was getting impeached for the record-setting 2nd time, Trump turned a blind eye to pesky talk of insurrection, and held a very, very important closed door event... to award BBs collaborator Toby Keith with this prestigious honor.

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2021/jan/13/trump-awards-medals-singers-toby-keith-and-ricky-s/

I can't imagine a scenario where Mike isn't annoyed that it wasn't *him* receiving this award over Toby - after all of the Trump brownnosing that Mike has done with this transactional, twice-impeached president.

But there's still another week though, so maybe Mike is next in line. I think Mike is legit going to feel pretty cheated if his buddy leaves him hanging. Does anyone disagree? I am totally serious in thinking this.
I mean Mike's been in the music business twice as long as Keith, and has brownnosed at least 2.5 times as hard.

- 2017 inauguration-adjacent show
- 2018 White House press conference with Kid Rock, etc.
- 2020 Trump Jr.-related trophy hunting gig
- 2020 Trump fundraiser show in the middle of a pandemic
- 2021 NYE Mar-a-Lago show in the middle of a pandemic
+ probably more stuff I'm overlooking.

That unwavering loyalty has got to count for *something*.

And it makes Mike's unthinkably bad choice to proceed with even the indefensible trophy hunting gig make all the more sense in hindsight. There is *no way* Mike hasn't been purposefully angling for an award like this, gaining "own the libs" points with multiple generations of Trump family members.  Of course Mike has all along known that Trump is transactional, and of course an award has been on his radar.

If Trump somehow leaves Mike hanging, Mike is most *definitely* going to have to speak to the manager.

You really have an unhealthy fixation on these two guys (Love & Trump), Century.  There's more to life than obsessing endlessly in fury over two people you don't even know personally.  

While my post was undoubtedly drenched in sarcasm, I will say that I was legitimately, truthfully expecting Mike to get an honor from Trump, and I am quite surprised it didn't happen. I'm completely serious. And I'd be surprised if Mike wasn't pissed about it. Find me another musician, let alone one from an extraordinarily legendary band, who did as many public Trump shows/fundraiser/etc. over the last few years other than Mike. Let alone somebody who is 80 years old.

Point taken, but my fascinatinon with Mike's unrelenting associations with Trump is informed by how it disturbs me, which is because the music that Mike helped create means a heck of a lot to me. Too much, probably. I legitimately hope Mike's association with Trump hasn't tarnished the brand name beyond repair. It's certain that such tarnishment has in fact already occurred with plenty of fans. There will be plenty of people who will never listen to the band or take them seriously because of that connection. It's very unfortunate. You can say "well that's their loss", or any such derivative, but that damage has been done and can't be undone. And it really pisses me off to see my favorite band being dragged through the mud because of this garbage.

Only 36 hours to go, Mike is surely prepping his phone call to the manager about what may soon be a grave injustice

Thank you Stephen! And Happy New Year to you.