I posted this in the "Initial Structure" thread but thought I'd throw it in here too. I won't go into full details, considering I already did in other thread, but it's a 9 1/2 minute version of Heroes & Villains and contains Barnyard, IIGS, & OMP along with many other sections...

http://www60.zippyshare.com/v/aCCI5fXq/file.html

Not blaming you for this, but I've long thought that it's funny that 'H&V Intro' doesn't sound good at all as an intro to H&V. Not to me anyway.

Especially as it's basically a variation of the "Who Ran The Iron Horse" section.

That's interesting that you should mention trains. For a very long time I've envisioned 'H&V Intro' as the soundtrack for Our Hero (or is it Our Villain?) being chased by a group of ridiculous  Keystone Cops. There's a chase through the city streets into the nearby train station. Police whistles blow telling the fugitive to "Stop!". Slapstick ensues as the bumbling cops, clumsily falling down or bumping into each other, search for the fugitive while the train whistle urgently signals that it's ready to leave. At the last moment, Our Hero manages to leap to the back of the caboose in true Charlie Chaplin style, waving behind to the inept cops as the train leaves the station, accompanied by a final fading blow of the  train whistle. And so, Our Hero has fled the city, never able to return lest he be arrested to stand trial for his crime. This sets the stage for the lyrics of Heroes and Villains. For a number of years Our Hero (or Villain) has escaped to the Southwest frontier and lived life peacefully. Assuming a new identity, he fell in a love with a girl and had children. Inevitably, his past catches up with him when he hears "You're under arrest!". Maybe there's some gun play, and his true love is killed in the crossfire. He's thrown into the hoosegow and faces being hung for his past crimes.

I like that idea! Did you eventually change it because you didn't like the way the "Intro To Heroes And Villains" actually sounded as the intro to "Heroes And Villains"? I often wonder if Brian planned it that way. I think it could've worked. I can actually envision the album starting that way (but admittedly, I've never been a fan of "Our Prayer" as the opener). I don't think it sounds...bad, but I also think I'm/we're prejudiced because about the only place we've ever heard it is as the intro to "Mrs. O'Leary's Cow".

I posted this in the "Initial Structure" thread but thought I'd throw it in here too. I won't go into full details, considering I already did in other thread, but it's a 9 1/2 minute version of Heroes & Villains and contains Barnyard, IIGS, & OMP along with many other sections...

http://www60.zippyshare.com/v/aCCI5fXq/file.html

Thank you for posting that; I enjoyed it very much. No offense to your previous version, but this one is quite different, and I think you made some good choices. I like "kitchen sink" versions of Heroes And Villains, and yours fits the bill. Well done!

I am trying to get this thread back into the spirit that was originally intended - for the FUN of it. Would you like to share the entire sequencing of your mix?

It goes:

Heroes & Villains (the long version posted above)
Do You Like Worms (official version)
Cabin Essence (official version)
H&V Outro (can't remember what it's officially titled in smile box set but it has fluttering horn and bit of a drum and whistle theme from MOLC)
Mrs. O'Leary's Cow
Workshop (minus IWBA)
Water Chant
Wind Chimes (pasted Whispering Winds Outro)
You're Welcome
Vega-Tables
*special edit of He Gives Speeches (HGS > LTSD edited > Wonderful (Rock With Me Henry) ma-ma-ma section edited > Outro containing Rock With Me Henry*
Wonderful
CIFOTM
Surf's Up
Our Prayer

I'd be happy to post a link of that Frankenstein version of He Gives Speeches if anyone's interested.

The sequence:

- Mrs. O'Leary's Cow
- Workshop
- Water Chant
- Wind Chimes

Do you sequence those "elements" that way because of a concept you have, or because it sounds/flows best that way, or both?

And, yes, I'd like to hear your version of "He Gives Speeches".

Well, I'm finally caught up on reading all of this! Great job, The_Holy_Bee, and thank you for all of the time you spent researching and posting this valuable information. I'm a big fan/supporter of anything documented about SMiLE - BACK IN THE DAY - including the infamous handwritten tracklist, Frank Holmes' work, session sheets, and the various magazine articles. Of course you can't take it all as 100% factual, and you have to accept that it underwent changes (the changes were ongoing). But, on some level, it does serve as evidence, and I think it's important to recognize it as such. I guess it's up to each individual just how much.  

I posted this in the "Initial Structure" thread but thought I'd throw it in here too. I won't go into full details, considering I already did in other thread, but it's a 9 1/2 minute version of Heroes & Villains and contains Barnyard, IIGS, & OMP along with many other sections...

http://www60.zippyshare.com/v/aCCI5fXq/file.html

Thank you for posting that; I enjoyed it very much. No offense to your previous version, but this one is quite different, and I think you made some good choices. I like "kitchen sink" versions of Heroes And Villains, and yours fits the bill. Well done!

I am trying to get this thread back into the spirit that was originally intended - for the FUN of it. Would you like to share the entire sequencing of your mix?

My 2016 Wish List has been the same since 1998. It's already too late for it to come true this year because contracts have already been signed.

My wish is that Brian Wilson would quit/stop/retire from being a solo artist. I would like him to record a Beach Boys' album with Mike, Al, Bruce, and David, released in the spring. I would like the same lineup (with the 2012 backing band) to play a handful of concerts in 2016 - a festival in the summer, a two-night stand with a symphony orchestra in the fall, and a holiday/Christmas concert in December.

I didn't know where to put this question, so I'll try here...

I was just listening to the radio, and they had a "flashback" segment. Question: What song was No. 1 on the Billboard Singles Chart, 40 years ago, on January 11, 1976?  

I don't see a Jan 11, but a Jan 10 and Jan 17:

January 10  Convoy  C.W. McCall  
January 17  I Write The Songs  Barry Manilow  

http://www.billboard.com/archive/charts/1976/hot-100

Yes, it was the Bruce Johnston-penned, Grammy Award-winning, "I Write The Songs". I had forgotten how close that song was to the 15 Big Ones/"Brian's Back" campaign.

Do you have an idea when he wrote it? I wonder if he felt that his moment to shine was overshadowed.

I'm assuming it was written in early 1975. The Captain & Tennille recorded it first in 1975, then David Cassidy also in 1975, and finally Barry Manilow released it as a single in November 1975. Pure speculation, but I would think Bruce felt more overshadowed by Barry Manilow (how many people thought/think that Barry wrote the song?) than by The Beach Boys because The Beach Boys never had a Grammy, and regardless of the success of Endless Summer/Spirit Of America, hadn't exactly been burning up the charts.

I didn't know where to put this question, so I'll try here...

I was just listening to the radio, and they had a "flashback" segment. Question: What song was No. 1 on the Billboard Singles Chart, 40 years ago, on January 11, 1976? 

I don't see a Jan 11, but a Jan 10 and Jan 17:

January 10  Convoy  C.W. McCall 
January 17  I Write The Songs  Barry Manilow 

http://www.billboard.com/archive/charts/1976/hot-100

Yes, it was the Bruce Johnston-penned, Grammy Award-winning, "I Write The Songs". I had forgotten how close that song was to the 15 Big Ones/"Brian's Back" campaign.

I didn't know where to put this question, so I'll try here...

I was just listening to the radio, and they had a "flashback" segment. Question: What song was No. 1 on the Billboard Singles Chart, 40 years ago, on January 11, 1976? 

Great topic...I first started buying albums in 1971 and all of them were hard rock. All of them. I used to ride my bike to the local magazine store, and while guys were lined up in the back of the store gazing at Playboy, I was in the middle feverishly paging through Creem and Circus. I would read the album reviews and see these great advertisements and look at the wild photos, and wanted to be a part of that scene. So, after literally saving my pennies, I would then go to the record store and buy the albums based on what I read in the magazines. At that time, FM radio was just coming into fruition and they weren't playing the bands that I was reading about in Creem and Circus. The artists/records I was buying and listening to in that time frame of 1971-74 included The Doors, Blue Oyster Cult, KISS, Slade, Led Zeppelin, Mott The Hoople, Montrose, early Queen, and somehow Sparks slipped in there. It was such a thrill discovering those artists and records. Nobody at my school was listening to this stuff; I really don't know if they thought I was cool or weird. I had a best friend who had a real stereo system and I'd go over to his house and we'd have these "listening sessions" where we'd spend hours just listening to album after album. I know it sounds strange but my buddy and I were actually DEDICATED to hard rock. I loved the sound of the electric guitar, was a little picky about the lead vocalists (Noddy Holder and Robert Plant had to grow on me), but mostly I could live vicariously in those records. If I couldn't actually be a part of that scene, I could imagine it through the music. I don't think that period/era (the early 1970's) gets the credit it deserves for the hard rock music it produced.

I made a serious stop-and-detour when my older sister purchased Endless Summer in late 1974. I got hooked on The Beach Boys big time, and most of my money and listening time was devoted to the vast back catalog of The Beach Boys. And that was quite a back catalog! I was able to "hang in there" with my hard rock purchases (I was now old enough to get a job), and I welcomed the emerging punk rock music. I was still reading rock publications and now getting into groups like The New York Dolls, The Ramones, The Dictators, Sex Pistols, The Stranglers, and Aerosmith. I welcomed this hard rock as my response to the emerging disco music. Again, this stuff wasn't being played on FM radio stations in my small town. Nobody I knew was listening to this stuff, but again, I kind of liked being different, almost like I was discovering this hard rock music that hardly anybody knew existed.

By 1980-81, my interest and devotion to hard rock started to wane a bit. I was now ten years older, and expanding my musical horizons. Bob Dylan became huge with me (with another vast back catalog to purchase); believe it or not I got into Frank Sinatra and John Denver (because of a girlfriend), and I finally got around to purchasing The Beatles' albums. However, many of the hard rock groups I liked had either peaked, were on their last legs, or were gone. MTV was starting to get very big, and in the early days I watched it frequently. I liked some of the cool groups played on MTV, but I didn't invest in their albums; the videos sufficed.

Finally, in the mid-1980's to the early 1990's, MTV played all of these "hair bands", and hard rock was everywhere. I should've loved that music, or at least liked it, but it never hit home. I mean, some of those "hair band" and metal band guitarists were obviously very talented, the singers were definitely putting out, and the subject matter of the songs, while a little more graphic and sexual, was similar to the previous decade, I don't know...I guess what I saying is that I don't why I didn't/don't appreciate that era. It had the energy, passion, and the electric guitar! It must be an age thing, a generational thing. I sometimes wonder if I would've embraced the "hair bands" if I was sixteen years old at the time of their popularity.

Today, I watch That Metal Show on VH1 Classic. I try to catch up on what I missed; it can be educational, although I don't listen to metal. I occasionally listen to my old hard rock favorites. I usually don't listen to the original albums in full; I've made custom compilation CD's of my favorite songs. But, yeah, I'll still get into Blue Oyster Cult, early KISS, Slade, and The New York Dolls. I just purchased a special 40th Anniversary Edition of The Dictators' Go Girl Crazy, autographed by Andy Shernoff. I guess you can say it is partly reminiscing, but I STILL absolutely genuinely enjoy that hard rock music from the 1970's! Occasionally.

After reading your articulate posts, I think you should write to Brian Wilson and Van Dyke Parks, or start a campaign or something, and try to persuade them to sit down with Darian Sahanaja - over several days! - and take each SMiLE track one at a time and tell everything they know/remember about them.

I realize this post is directed at Mujan - and I quite agree with its sentiment! - but it does remind me of a relevant story I'm not sure I've shared here before. Right at the end of the '04 SMiLE tour, Brian and his band played in Wellington, New Zealand. I was lucky enough to be sitting in the fourth row, right behind a group of BB fanatics who recognized me (though a little younger) as one of their own. As a result, I was invited to have a few drinks with the band at the Intercontinental Hotel after the show.

My friend Chris, who sadly died very young a couple of years back, and I spent a number of hours hanging with several of the musicians - most of that time chatting with Darian and Nick. They were both incredibly friendly and patient with two young SMiLE geeks, especially considering it was right at the end of a major and involved tour and did seem quite tired and keen to take a break. Nick particularly talked a bit about getting into more non-BW, Wondermints-focussed musical activity now SMiLE was 'over', though this doesn't seem to have really happened. (Surreal moment for a 22 year old: sitting on a street bench in downtown Wellington at 2am, eating kebabs with Brian Wilson's guitarist while he tells you about being responsible for song selection in an impromptu trailer-based jam session with Neil Young, Pete Townshend and Eric Clapton.)

It was about ten years ago, obviously, so much of what we discussed is now lost to history, but I did ask Darian about 'Child is Father of the Man' lyrics at least ('Van Dyke didn't have them - I don't think he was sure if he'd ever actually written any.') My overall 'takeaway' is that, in his many conversations with BW & VDP while putting together BWPS, there weren't actually many secrets to be revealed - or, at least, able to be recalled - regarding sequencing intentions, missing lyrics, etc. In short, if Brian or Van Dyke had remembered any particular plans for the album from '66, my impression is that they would have been employed in the eventual assembly. Indeed, when either did make any such suggestions - Look into CFOTM, for instance - they were usually, and immediately, implemented. I didn't get the sense that Darian felt there was all that much info still to excavate.

One other quick memory, on a lighter note, was Darian's fantastic story about the night of SMiLE's London premiere, when he was sitting with Brian at the back of the reception room after the show. 'Brian,' Darian said, seeing Paul McCartney and his bodyguard on the far side of the room, 'You know you and Sir Paul have always been my most important musical influences. No problem if you're uncomfortable about it, but do you think I might be able to get a photo with the two of you?'

Brian paused, looked seriously at Darian for a moment, and then suddenly hollered at top volume across the room, gesturing vaguely at his longtime collaborator and 'musical secretary': 'HEY PAUL! WANNA TAKE A PHOTO WITH THIS GUY?'

Macca immediately waved away his security, came over to the bench and sat on the other side of Darian, arm over his shoulder, for the requested picture. Which was still in his wallet when he told us that story about a decade ago.

Great post, and thanks for sharing those stories.! They're gold!

The only thing I want to say about Brian and Van Dyke possibly not revealing or disclosing "everything they recalled" from 1966-67 is, and I know it sounds like I'm rationalizing, but after it was decided or determined that the 2004 BWPS was going to be a three movement, live rock opera, what was the point of trying to recreate the 1966-67 SMiLE album? The live aspect of BWPS gave them the opportunity to take so many liberties (which they did, using tracks from the Wild Honey sessions and Mark Linett early 1990's studio experiments). I am of the opinion that if the goal was not to do a live presentation of the SMiLE music, but to (re)construct how the 1966-67 SMiLE album might've appeared, there would've been significant differences between the two, and Brian and Van Dyke might've (would've) been more forthcoming with historical remembrances and "secrets". Again, just an opinion.

Now for one of the questions. Is "Workshop" actually the cooks chopping lumber, with Brian employing humor with the power tools? What else could it be? That's a serious question. Forget the cooks, but it has to be "somebody" working with wood (lumber?) and probably inside (a barn?) because of the electrical cords? I mean, doesn't it sound like somebody woodworking...inside?

Two last things, both personal opinions. Even grafted to "I Wanna Be Around", "Workshop" never seemed like a standalone track to me. I just think it has to part of a bigger, and I hate to use the term...suite. Maybe "The Elements" suite. And, "Workshop" isn't written separately on the handwritten list either. Personally, I use "Workshop" near "I'm In Great Shape" and before "Vegetables", but, hell, what do I know.

And, finally, if you listen closely near the end of "Workshop", you'll hear somebody (I wonder who that is?) going "Oww", like they're in pain from hitting their thumb with a hammer or something, or maybe being burned by fire...

It is what it was it's always been, ever since Brian spun "Great Shape out in to its own song: the end part of a suite, specially "I'm In Great Shape". The people in the song are working inside (or outside), putting the pieces of the singer's heart back together.

I'm not disagreeing with you. Hell, what do I know?

But it never made any sense to me. It's morning, the guy tumbles out of bed, fresh air all around his head, he's surrounded by agriculture, he's in great shape! And then, a second later, pieces of his broken heart are being put back together. OOOOKKKKK...

I wanted to ask a question about the possibility of "Workshop" as an Element. Feel free to shoot the question/theory down. Pure speculation I admit...

I've been obsessing over "Mrs. O'Leary's Cow" lately, trying to figure out what Brian was doing with it, where he placed it, etc. Early in many/most mixes, we get the first mention of "the lamp" in "Cabinessence" - light the LAMP and fire mellow. So Brian and Van Dyke established the lamp. But where is the lamp? In the barn, of course. And where is the barn? Out in the barnyard! So now we've established that there is a lamp and a barnyard/barn, with "Cabinessence" and "Barnyard". But, what's going on in the barnyard? Out in the barnyard the cook is chopping lumber!

Now for one of the questions. Is "Workshop" actually the cooks chopping lumber, with Brian employing humor with the power tools? What else could it be? That's a serious question. Forget the cooks, but it has to be "somebody" working with wood (lumber?) and probably inside (a barn?) because of the electrical cords? I mean, doesn't it sound like somebody woodworking...inside?

OK, now right to the issue. "Workshop" is basically 1:25 to 1:35, the perfect length for one of "The Elements". And, it's an instrumental (or no vocals); some might say that falls in line with "The Elements". Do you see where I'm going with this? You're in the barn. It's at night and we already lit the lamp. People are working in the barn (somebody was working in the barn on the actual night of the fire in 1871). and the next think you know there's a fire. Admittedly, however, I can't find a cow.

I tried making a mix, going straight from "Workshop" into "Mrs. O'Leary's Cow" (with and without the intro); it doesn't flow that great. But it's a possibility. Although I don't know what "element" you want to attach to "Workshop"; it's a stretch whichever element you choose. And, then there's the theory of rebuilding the barn by putting "Workshop" after "Mrs. O'Leary's Cow" and having it still be an element.

Two last things, both personal opinions. Even grafted to "I Wanna Be Around", "Workshop" never seemed like a standalone track to me. I just think it has to part of a bigger, and I hate to use the term...suite. And, "Workshop" isn't written separately on the handwritten list either. Personally, I use "Workshop" near "I'm In Great Shape" and before "Vegetables", but, hell, what do I know.

And, finally, if you listen closely near the end of "Workshop", you'll hear somebody (I wonder who that is?) going "Oww", like they're in pain from hitting their thumb with a hammer or something, or maybe being burned by fire...

It makes about as much sense as WC tag or Dada as elements, thats for sure. I think, from a purely aesthetic view, it fits great after Fire, conveys the feeling of Earth, or working the Earth, and of rebuilding after destruction. Its an instrumental of about the same length as you say. Frankly, and Ive been saying this for over a year now, I wish we could just accept the elements is incomplete and just move on. I completely understand why people want to piece together their own version--but I wish we could just admit at least part of that is an aesthetics choice, rather than all this assuming there really was a finished, official recording right under our noses which isnt so.

My personal favorite version of the elements would be Breathing/Fire/Workshop/Undersea Chant and perhaps even experiment with that as an album closer. Then you have something that has a parellel with life as well as 4 clear, undeniable elemental sounding pieces of music. You could see it as a man having a heart attack, the desperate gasps of breath to terror (and/or death) itself, then a metaphorical rebuilding and returning to where life began. Kinda cheesy I admit, but its something cool I dont think anyones tried and Id like to next time I get around to making a mix. Fire is unquestionable. And I just put up an impassioned case for why UC and Breathing are the closest things to a vintage Water and Air we'll ever have. Where I admit aesthetics comes into it is using Workshop. Yeah, perhaps there's a better case to be made for Veggies--but so what, Veggies in there sounds terrible (my opinion, yes) and its so overly layered and complex compared to those simplistic instrumentals and a capellas it doesnt fit to my ears.

Someone else will say "I think Fire/Workshop/Water Chant/Dada(for Air) sounds better." And Id love to see that exact configuration tried too. Or the other idea I keep seeing people mention but never do-- Fire/Dada/Fall Breaks/Second Day. Those are 99.999999% not what Brian wouldve done. But what does it matter when no one can know for sure, and its almost positive the other 3, or at least one of the other 3, was never and will never be recorded? The point is, they sound great and use the material we have to amazing, and plausible, effect.

What drives me nuts enough to write such a long winded post before after I said I think talking about the Elements is a waste of time, is this annoying attitude that all elements were recorded officially, which just contradicts the evidence. Like, I dont care if you want to make an elements out of WC tag/VT (or just the tag of that too)/Fire and Surf's Up. Personally, I think that'd sound horrible and would fail to convey the feeling of the elements at all...but its your SMiLE. Just dont tell me you know what the elements really are, because of some forced interpretation of a vague quote from some article. If youre trying to say your elements is right and historical, the burden of proof is on you. And just above, one of the supporters of this theory even admitted they thought this version of the elements wouldnt sound good. Its like...ok, if you dont think it'll sound good...why are you doing it that way? Again, because of some very questionable "evidence" when officially there was nothing past Fire? Man...just have fun with it at that point. But ardently supporting WC tag and then acting like someone else is objectively wrong for using Workshop is just totally baffling to me. Its borderline hypocritical even.

Please forgive me. I know Im ranting like an asshole--and after I said my last post would be my final word on the subject--I just really need to get this outta my system. Ok. For reals now...bottom line...the elements, sans Fire was never officially recorded and will never be finished as Brian saw it. Thats what all my annoying ranting and raving boils down to. The TL;DR of both these past posts of mine. Now Im done.

Thanks for your thoughts. After reading your articulate posts, I think you should write to Brian Wilson and Van Dyke Parks, or start a campaign or something, and try to persuade them to sit down with Darian Sahanaja - over several days! - and take each SMiLE track one at a time and tell everything they know/remember about them. It's an important part of popular music history, and the fact that such an analysis has not been done shows that SMiLE has not been taken as seriously as it should've been. When I think of how many years have gone by (wasted?), and how many other songs/albums have been discussed and dissected by other performers/artists...

I sincerely appreciate it. I wasnt expecting anyone to be anything but annoyed by them, honestly, but it was just something I had to get off my chest.

I tried asking Brian about Psychedelic Sounds in his Q&A but he predictably didnt answer. I wouldnt mind writing to him, or Melinda or VDP--whoever may appreciate it. The problem is VDP and Brian seem to loathe talking about this album and I wouldnt want to come off like I was harassing them. Id still be down to try--and be as respectful as possible about it--if anyone could provide me an address or email of any relevant people.

Well, we're approaching the 50th Anniversary of SMiLE (whenever they choose), and you know something will be done by somebody.

Yeah, Brian and Van Dyke formally discussing the SMiLE tracks is a huge long-shot, probably down in the low, single digit percentile. But, you never know, just like BWPS coming out in 2004...

Hey SJS, nice thoughts on 'Workshop' being an Element - in fact, I think used to be a pretty popular theory.  (Am I right in recalling it was used to follow 'Fire' in the Propoky Tapes?)

My own supposition, which I've gone into in greater detail elsewhere so will summarize here, is that most of the data points to 'IWBA/Workshop' being connected to 'I'm in Great Shape'/'Barnyard'. There's a (Great Shape) notation on the session logs for this track, and Mike Vosse speaks of it in conjunction with OMP/'Barnyard' in his crucial 'Fusion' article, for starters. The best guess I can make is that when H&V was decided on to be the single in late '66 (see Anderle in Crawdaddy! for an extended discussion of how this track was selected for A-side release), the original 'bits-and-pieces' construction ('Humble Harv') was considered not suitably commercial. So IIGS and 'Barnyard' were extracted and a new song title - 'I'm in Great Shape' - (cf. the 'Capitol memo') created to act as a clearinghouse for these newly orphaned sections.

EDIT: Re: this original conception of H&V, using 'Humble Harv' and the descriptions of the Durrie Parks acetates, I've suggested a possible assembly in the H&V thread on the TSS sub-board. No feedback on this yet, but would love to hear any thoughts folk might have on it. Shameless plug for a post on another thread over!

Anyway. IWBA/Workshop is recorded right at the end of November, the night after 'Fire'. So perhaps this part-cover, part-goof was hastily put together to pad out a track that would have been barely ninety seconds long if only the two sections mentioned above had been included. In my view - and it is only that - the timing of the sessions also explains Carol Kaye's oft-quoted comment (from the session tapes) about 'rebuilding after the fire'. Not that the tracks were meant to be connected, but because this jokey, relaxed session was the next to follow the extraordinary MOLC taping of the previous day.

(Regarding the workshop FX - these were dubbed over the instrumental recording at a later time/date, weren't they? Anyone - C-man? - able to confirm this?)

This said: A little discussed aspect of 'The Elements' is that this sorta-'opera' (Anderle) was also apparently intended to express some of Brian's enthusiasm for healthy living at the time (Anderle again). 'Vega-Tables' certainly fits the bill here. Perhaps IIGS/Sleep A Lot do too. So who knows?

Thank you for your response. Yes, actual data/documentation would suggest that "Workshop" was NOT an element. But you have to admit, it has some things (length, sound effects, wood/lumber) going for it. Damn, this "fire" is driving me nuts!  

I wanted to ask a question about the possibility of "Workshop" as an Element. Feel free to shoot the question/theory down. Pure speculation I admit...

I've been obsessing over "Mrs. O'Leary's Cow" lately, trying to figure out what Brian was doing with it, where he placed it, etc. Early in many/most mixes, we get the first mention of "the lamp" in "Cabinessence" - light the LAMP and fire mellow. So Brian and Van Dyke established the lamp. But where is the lamp? In the barn, of course. And where is the barn? Out in the barnyard! So now we've established that there is a lamp and a barnyard/barn, with "Cabinessence" and "Barnyard". But, what's going on in the barnyard? Out in the barnyard the cook is chopping lumber!

Now for one of the questions. Is "Workshop" actually the cooks chopping lumber, with Brian employing humor with the power tools? What else could it be? That's a serious question. Forget the cooks, but it has to be "somebody" working with wood (lumber?) and probably inside (a barn?) because of the electrical cords? I mean, doesn't it sound like somebody woodworking...inside?

OK, now right to the issue. "Workshop" is basically 1:25 to 1:35, the perfect length for one of "The Elements". And, it's an instrumental (or no vocals); some might say that falls in line with "The Elements". Do you see where I'm going with this? You're in the barn. It's at night and we already lit the lamp. People are working in the barn (somebody was working in the barn on the actual night of the fire in 1871). and the next think you know there's a fire. Admittedly, however, I can't find a cow.

I tried making a mix, going straight from "Workshop" into "Mrs. O'Leary's Cow" (with and without the intro); it doesn't flow that great. But it's a possibility. Although I don't know what "element" you want to attach to "Workshop"; it's a stretch whichever element you choose. And, then there's the theory of rebuilding the barn by putting "Workshop" after "Mrs. O'Leary's Cow" and having it still be an element.

Two last things, both personal opinions. Even grafted to "I Wanna Be Around", "Workshop" never seemed like a standalone track to me. I just think it has to part of a bigger, and I hate to use the term...suite. And, "Workshop" isn't written separately on the handwritten list either. Personally, I use "Workshop" near "I'm In Great Shape" and before "Vegetables", but, hell, what do I know.

And, finally, if you listen closely near the end of "Workshop", you'll hear somebody (I wonder who that is?) going "Oww", like they're in pain from hitting their thumb with a hammer or something, or maybe being burned by fire...

It makes about as much sense as WC tag or Dada as elements, thats for sure. I think, from a purely aesthetic view, it fits great after Fire, conveys the feeling of Earth, or working the Earth, and of rebuilding after destruction. Its an instrumental of about the same length as you say. Frankly, and Ive been saying this for over a year now, I wish we could just accept the elements is incomplete and just move on. I completely understand why people want to piece together their own version--but I wish we could just admit at least part of that is an aesthetics choice, rather than all this assuming there really was a finished, official recording right under our noses which isnt so.

My personal favorite version of the elements would be Breathing/Fire/Workshop/Undersea Chant and perhaps even experiment with that as an album closer. Then you have something that has a parellel with life as well as 4 clear, undeniable elemental sounding pieces of music. You could see it as a man having a heart attack, the desperate gasps of breath to terror (and/or death) itself, then a metaphorical rebuilding and returning to where life began. Kinda cheesy I admit, but its something cool I dont think anyones tried and Id like to next time I get around to making a mix. Fire is unquestionable. And I just put up an impassioned case for why UC and Breathing are the closest things to a vintage Water and Air we'll ever have. Where I admit aesthetics comes into it is using Workshop. Yeah, perhaps there's a better case to be made for Veggies--but so what, Veggies in there sounds terrible (my opinion, yes) and its so overly layered and complex compared to those simplistic instrumentals and a capellas it doesnt fit to my ears.

Someone else will say "I think Fire/Workshop/Water Chant/Dada(for Air) sounds better." And Id love to see that exact configuration tried too. Or the other idea I keep seeing people mention but never do-- Fire/Dada/Fall Breaks/Second Day. Those are 99.999999% not what Brian wouldve done. But what does it matter when no one can know for sure, and its almost positive the other 3, or at least one of the other 3, was never and will never be recorded? The point is, they sound great and use the material we have to amazing, and plausible, effect.

What drives me nuts enough to write such a long winded post before after I said I think talking about the Elements is a waste of time, is this annoying attitude that all elements were recorded officially, which just contradicts the evidence. Like, I dont care if you want to make an elements out of WC tag/VT (or just the tag of that too)/Fire and Surf's Up. Personally, I think that'd sound horrible and would fail to convey the feeling of the elements at all...but its your SMiLE. Just dont tell me you know what the elements really are, because of some forced interpretation of a vague quote from some article. If youre trying to say your elements is right and historical, the burden of proof is on you. And just above, one of the supporters of this theory even admitted they thought this version of the elements wouldnt sound good. Its like...ok, if you dont think it'll sound good...why are you doing it that way? Again, because of some very questionable "evidence" when officially there was nothing past Fire? Man...just have fun with it at that point. But ardently supporting WC tag and then acting like someone else is objectively wrong for using Workshop is just totally baffling to me. Its borderline hypocritical even.

Please forgive me. I know Im ranting like an asshole--and after I said my last post would be my final word on the subject--I just really need to get this outta my system. Ok. For reals now...bottom line...the elements, sans Fire was never officially recorded and will never be finished as Brian saw it. Thats what all my annoying ranting and raving boils down to. The TL;DR of both these past posts of mine. Now Im done.

Thanks for your thoughts. After reading your articulate posts, I think you should write to Brian Wilson and Van Dyke Parks, or start a campaign or something, and try to persuade them to sit down with Darian Sahanaja - over several days! - and take each SMiLE track one at a time and tell everything they know/remember about them. It's an important part of popular music history, and the fact that such an analysis has not been done shows that SMiLE has not been taken as seriously as it should've been. When I think of how many years have gone by (wasted?), and how many other songs/albums have been discussed and dissected by other performers/artists...

I wanted to ask a question about the possibility of "Workshop" as an Element. Feel free to shoot the question/theory down. Pure speculation I admit...

I've been obsessing over "Mrs. O'Leary's Cow" lately, trying to figure out what Brian was doing with it, where he placed it, etc. Early in many/most mixes, we get the first mention of "the lamp" in "Cabinessence" - light the LAMP and fire mellow. So Brian and Van Dyke established the lamp. But where is the lamp? In the barn, of course. And where is the barn? Out in the barnyard! So now we've established that there is a lamp and a barnyard/barn, with "Cabinessence" and "Barnyard". But, what's going on in the barnyard? Out in the barnyard the cook is chopping lumber!

Now for one of the questions. Is "Workshop" actually the cooks chopping lumber, with Brian employing humor with the power tools? What else could it be? That's a serious question. Forget the cooks, but it has to be "somebody" working with wood (lumber?) and probably inside (a barn?) because of the electrical cords? I mean, doesn't it sound like somebody woodworking...inside?

OK, now right to the issue. "Workshop" is basically 1:25 to 1:35, the perfect length for one of "The Elements". And, it's an instrumental full of sound effects; some might say that falls in line with "The Elements". Do you see where I'm going with this? You're in the barn. It's at night and we already lit the lamp. People are working in the barn (somebody was working in the barn on the actual night of the fire in 1871), and the next thing you know there's a fire. Admittedly, however, I can't find a cow.

I tried making a mix, going straight from "Workshop" into "Mrs. O'Leary's Cow" (with and without the intro); it doesn't flow that great. But it's a possibility. Although I don't know what "element" you want to attach to "Workshop"; it's a stretch whichever element you choose. And, then there's the theory of rebuilding the barn by putting "Workshop" after "Mrs. O'Leary's Cow" and having it still be an element.

Two last things, both personal opinions. Even grafted to "I Wanna Be Around", "Workshop" never seemed like a standalone track to me. I just think it has to part of a bigger, and I hate to use the term...suite. Maybe "The Elements" suite. And, "Workshop" isn't written separately on the handwritten list either. Personally, I use "Workshop" near "I'm In Great Shape" and before "Vegetables", but, hell, what do I know.

And, finally, if you listen closely near the end of "Workshop", you'll hear somebody (I wonder who that is?) going "Oww", like they're in pain from hitting their thumb with a hammer or something, or maybe being burned by fire...

EDIT: I also read there were high WINDS on the night of the Chicago fire which contributed to its spreading.

Here's my latest iteration that blend the 12 track format mixed with some arrangements from the 2004 version and incorporating some of the Psychedelic Sounds, all in glorious mono. I really have to say that im' proud of this mix but it's really my personal interpretation of how the songs of SMiLE would have sounded like if released around May 1967, not like what Brian Wilson would have done back then. Some liberties were taken, but the main goal was to have 12 strong "complete" songs with full vocals. For example, maybe a track like The Elements in its original state doesn't really exist, but this version would have been a great track. So, without any further boringness,

Enjoy! (with headphones, in the dark, please)

Side A (American Gothic Trip)

01 Prayer/Heroes & Villians Pt 1  - Cantina version 'til tape explosion/Sunny Down Snuff/Heroes 45 chorus Smile Sessions version)
02 Do You Like Worms - mix of different edits: seltaeb1012002, soniclovenoize, happyroom
03 Im' In Great Shape (The Barnyard Suite- the farming/health theme continues in Vega-Tables) - as in soniclovenoize's version: Barnyard/Im' In Great Shape/I Wanna Be Around(seltaeb1012002 mix)/Friday Night (w\ Smog from Psychedelic Sounds)
04 Vega-Tables - mix from The Smile Sessions with added coda from Smiley Smile + Vegetables promo from The Smile Sessions
05 The Old Master Painter - Intro and mix from The Smile Sessions
06 Cabin Essence - The Smile Sessions mix

Side B (Cycle of Life)

07 Good Vibrations - 45 mix version from Smiley Smile Japanese remaster
08 Wind Chimes - 30 years of Good Vibrations mix+Smile Sessions
09 The Elements -  San Francisco 1906 Earthquake (H& V Intro with sound fx + Who Ran The Iron Horse chant from Vocals Montage featured on The Smile Sessions) /Mrs. O' Leary's Cow (w/crackling fire Brian Wilson mono mix+Fall Breaks chant)/I Love To Say Da-Da (30 Years of GV Box + sound sfx + Psychedelic Sounds) - Whispering Winds (Smiley Smile version + sound fx)
10 Wonderful/Look -  - The Smile Sessions + mix from happyroom
11 Child Is Father Of The Man - mix of different edits: seltaeb1012002, soniclovenoize, happyroom, the old master painter, Chris from The Smile Project
12 Surf's Up/Prayer (reprise) - mix of different edits: The Smile Sessions, bruiteur mix, Psychedelic Sounds.

bonus:
Heroes & Villians Pt 2 (b-side to the single) - based on the medley from the acetates mixes on The Smile Sessions that goes Gee/Heroes & Villains (fast variation 1)/Heroes & Villains (fast variation 2) then it goes into Heroes & Villains (slow variation 3)/Bridge to indians and country and western theme/flutterhorn/Fade remake with Carl on vocals (Smile Sessions)

https://vimeo.com/151183262

shangaijoeBB, I got all psyched to listen to your mix but the link doesn't work. Can you check it out? I'd really like to hear what you came up with!

Just a thought:  I don't think water need follow fire, as the fire is put out in the fire song itself.  That final "boom boom boom" of the drum, representing the collapsing walls or whatever, that's the fire being put out.  On the session tapes you even hear Brian instructing the drummer to "put that fire out" on that last bit.  

As of 1/7/16 I'm with you!

No, seriously, as I mentioned above, for years - decades actually - I followed the fire with water. But right now, I'm experimenting with what you said, which is having the fire go out with the final "boom boom boom" of the drum. And I like the effect.

Again I'm just experimenting, and I know it's not historically correct (that's not my goal), but I'm now using "The Water Chant" going into a short segment of "Cool Cool Water" (both recorded during the Wild Honey sessions) early in the mix, around "Worms" and "Holidays" (which I use as an early nautical song). To me, it makes more sense (at least on 1/7/16) to use "The Water Chant" and "Cool Cool Water" (or "Dada") as actually BEING IN WATER! instead of putting out a fire in a barn.

Hi guys! I'm an italian musician and producer and I love smile and Brian Wilson works in a very unexplainable way
I'm very proud of a personal smile reconstruction that i did a couple of years ago. I did it for a very simple pleasure and purpose; to make it more fluid and complete of the version we have until that day, so the love i feel for this album can be transmitted, to people near to me that don't know it.. It's unbeleivable but a lot of people don't know this master concept album..
 So i used a few things of the 2003 version to make some song complete, i remixed all.  I love smile because it's a great album with a prpose bigger of the technology of the time
Soon i'll upload it on the tube. If you wanna listen to it, this is an old emule link. it still works!

ed2k://|file|(D4Nk4.IT)%20Beach%20Boys%20-%20A%20personal%20%20Smile%20reconstruction_%202014.rar|66028895|FF220110E4F090C4CCE6AD50B4636D85|h=SQH5DRA4H2XATQ2FFS33FZXXTA7FPRZ7|/

Sorry for language mistakes...
Nice to meet you guy!
Dan

zavarov, the link for your SMiLE mix does not work. Please give it another try; I'd like to listen to it. Thanks...

John Cassavetes did some good work in the 1970's. A couple of favorites include Husbands, A Woman Under The Influence, and The Killing Of A Chinese Bookie.

I know they're not exactly "works of art" a la the Coppola and Scorcese films, but I always enjoy watching Clint Eastwood in his Dirty Harry movies. And, speaking of Clint Eastwood, he directed another favorite of mine, a 1973 movie called Breezy, starring William Holden and a young Kay Lenz. 

You could purchase The Beatles' CD "1" from Amazon for $16.95. It has 27 songs ranging from 1962's "Love Me Do" to 1970's "The Long And Winding Road". In my opinion, it's hard to beat as a sampler for a newbie.

Actually the ancient elements do follow an order, from heavy to light that would be earth - water - air - fire. That's the way I do it. The last drum hits put out the fire, IMHO no need to follow it with water.

May I ask which songs/segments you are presently using for your "The Elements"? Is it still Vegetables/I Love To Say Dada/Wind Chimes/Mrs. O'Leary's Cow? I kinda like that. Or, have you made any recent changes?

"Light My Fire" - The Doors
"On The Road Again" - Canned Heat
"25 Or 6 To 4" - Chicago

In every SMiLE mix I ever made, I put that damn fire out, always using "The Water Chant" first, followed by "I Love To Say Dada", but sometimes using the short version of "Cool, Cool Water" instead. Then I got to thinking, we know Brian didn't put the fire out with "The Water Chant" because he hadn't even recorded it yet. And, I've seen a lot of evidence (on this board!) that "I Love To Say Dada" has nothing to do with water anyway.

So, tonight I tried making my first SMiLE mix without putting the fire out. I started with "Wind Chimes" and proceeded with the bells and whistles (even though that's not right either, it's actually the "Intro To Heroes And Villains"), and continued with "Mrs. O'Leary's Cow". AND I ENDED IT RIGHT THERE WITH THE DRUMS AND SIRENS FADING. I burned that barn down to the ground. No water. I kind of like the effect; it's more dramatic. I actually like the silence at the end of the fire.

Now I have to figure out what to put after all of that!  
 

OK...Like the thread title says...for the fun of it...

Forget historical correctness (that's impossible anyway), forget BWPS (don't get me started on that), and forget what most people do (because that's always in flux, too). I came up with this due to boredom with the conventional sequence I've been using for years, and because I think this sounds cool! I like the somber mood, the spirituality, and I had to break up "The Water Chant"/"I Love To say Dada". Elements? What elements?

- go with "Wind Chimes", in the late afternoon, the sun is going down, the lamp is lit in the barn, we're nearing the end of the mix

- the cow kicked over the lamp and the fire is started...now use "Intro To Heroes And Villains" or AKA the bass/piano/whistles; for 40 seconds

- the fire is blazing, go to "Mrs. O'Leary's Cow", let the barn continue burning, to the ground...let the track end with the crackling of the fire, the sirens fading, and the drums tailing off

- OK, the fire is over, the barn has completely burned to the ground, columnated ruins domino, there is silence as the family, neighbors, and firemen gather around, surveying the ruins

- wait 5 or 6 seconds and use that organ drone or the final 29 seconds of the "Workshop Sounds" (Smile Sessions-Disc 3); it almost sounds like a funeral ( pyre?), with the organ playing solemnly as the people pay their respects.

- After the organ is finished playing, it's time for a group prayer - "Our Prayer". I usually use "Our Prayer" here (2nd last song) anyway; I start my mix with "You're Welcome".

- end the mix with "Surf's Up"... the glass was raised, the fired toast, the fullness of the wine, the dim LAST TOASTING...You want water? Here's your water. Surf's Up!

In every SMiLE mix I ever made, I put that damn fire out, always using "The Water Chant" first, followed by "I Love To Say Dada", but sometimes using the short version of "Cool, Cool Water" instead. Then I got to thinking, we know Brian didn't put the fire out with "The Water Chant" because he hadn't even recorded it yet. And, I've seen a lot of evidence (on this board!) that "I Love To Say Dada" has nothing to do with water anyway.

So, tonight I tried making my first SMiLE mix without putting the fire out. I started with "Wind Chimes" and proceeded with the bells and whistles (even though that's not right either, it's actually the "Intro To Heroes And Villains"), and continued with "Mrs. O'Leary's Cow". AND I ENDED IT RIGHT THERE WITH THE DRUMS AND SIRENS FADING. I burned that barn down to the ground. No water. I kind of like the effect; it's more dramatic. I actually like the silence at the end of the fire.

Now I have to figure out what to put after all of that!    
 

Something has always made me wonder about the transition from "Mrs. O'Leary's Cow" into "The Water Chant" and then into "I Love To Say Dada" (or "In Blue Hawaii"). Several fan mixes, including Darian Sahanaja's, goes from the fire into "The Water Chant" and then into more water (i.e. the ocean). And that's what never made sense to me.

"Mrs. O'Leary's Cow" is a barn burning down and, I guess, firemen coming to the rescue. I'm assuming "The Water Chant" - even though it was recorded during the Wild Honey sessions - is the water putting the fire out? But then, we go from putting out a barn fire on a farm into sailing on the ocean? As soon as the fire is extinguished, he ends up in the cool, cool water of the ocean. That's quite a leap. Literally.

Like I usually do, I'm sure I'm putting too much lyrically and literally into this sequence, but it also makes me wonder what Brian was planning in 1966-67. What "water" would've he followed "fire" with, or whatever order he chose? Would've he "put out the fire" with water, or, would've he recorded some form of water - just to include it as part of an element, or The Elements?

So...yeah. Why does Water follow Fire? In almost any scenario I can think of its because ... where else could it go? Simple as that really.

Agree. In almost any scenario, water would follow fire. But the questions remain, for me anyway:

1) Was the water following the fire intended to "put out the fire" or just be used as a "water sample", an element if you will?

2) What recordings did Brian have for both "putting out the fire" and/or just as a "water sample "?  Certainly that "Underwater/swim swim" chant wouldn't be used as water putting out a fire, but I guess it could've served as an element only.

But, again, if Brian follows the burning down of a barn with an underwater/swim,swim chant, that's a little bizarre.