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Smiley Smile Stuff => General On Topic Discussions => Topic started by: busy doin nothin on January 19, 2011, 09:49:53 AM



Title: Instruments/Production on Cool Cool Water
Post by: busy doin nothin on January 19, 2011, 09:49:53 AM
A while back I was on a long drive for work, listening to Sunflower on the car stereo.  As I got to the end and Cool Cool Water came on the skies overhead (it had been a grey winter day) opened somewhat and I could see these massive billowing cloud formations.  The combination of that visual with the sound of Cool Cool Water, which is such an ethereal, beautiful expression of Brian's musical genius, was like a religious epiphany (I am an atheist).

I went back and listened to the song over and over and I was thinking about how much I have always loved the bass playing and the bass sound on it.  I started to fantasize that Brian was playing it.  Does anyone know?

And I also love the sound effects, which seem pretty amazing for the time they were recorded, like the thunder in the "chant" part.  I assume Brian was responsible for the arrangement and production of the sound, but I do not actually know.


Title: Re: Instruments/Production on Cool Cool Water
Post by: guitarfool2002 on January 19, 2011, 10:39:53 AM
A while back I was on a long drive for work, listening to Sunflower on the car stereo.  As I got to the end and Cool Cool Water came on the skies overhead (it had been a grey winter day) opened somewhat and I could see these massive billowing cloud formations.  The combination of that visual with the sound of Cool Cool Water, which is such an ethereal, beautiful expression of Brian's musical genius, was like a religious epiphany (I am an atheist).

I went back and listened to the song over and over and I was thinking about how much I have always loved the bass playing and the bass sound on it.  I started to fantasize that Brian was playing it.  Does anyone know?

And I also love the sound effects, which seem pretty amazing for the time they were recorded, like the thunder in the "chant" part.  I assume Brian was responsible for the arrangement and production of the sound, but I do not actually know.

Based on what I've read I'd credit Stephen Desper with many if not most of those sound effects and production ideas. After the initial concept from 1966-67 which saw Brian sending Michael Vosse into the street with a tape recorder to capture water sounds, and several early versions, the Sunflower version owes a huge debt to Stephen Desper's use of the Moog synthesizer, side-chaining and triggering and whatever other technological ideas went into that track. And also, if I remember his own writings, didn't Desper also use the "Eltro" vari-speed machine from Smiley Smile fame to vari-speed some of those taped effects? maybe some of that info is still in his archived thread?

The one thing I remember Brian making a point of regarding Cool Cool Water as it was heard on Sunflower was wishing they had not used the chants on the track. That says a lot to me at least, if these were used and Brian did not agree with using them in that context. One for the debates I guess.



Title: Re: Instruments/Production on Cool Cool Water
Post by: adamghost on January 19, 2011, 11:41:21 AM
It's a good question about the bass.  Somebody somewhere, and I honestly don't remember who, had said something about Bruce doing quite a bit of bass around that time, basically touching up things Brian would leave unfinished.  I was surprised to hear this, but I'm just passing that on.  Certainly we're learning that the BBs' studio modus operandi around that time was that just about anybody might have been playing anything.  C-Man might well know who did the bass.  It's pretty minimal as I recall, which does point to one of the band being the culprit.

Is there any example of Brian playing bass in studio as late as 1970?  He's credited on "Susie Cincinnati" but Alan Boyd and others have told me they believe that was actually Brian doing the bass line on an organ.


Title: Re: Instruments/Production on Cool Cool Water
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on January 19, 2011, 12:14:42 PM
After the initial concept from 1966-67 which saw Brian sending Michael Vosse into the street with a tape recorder to capture water sounds...

Not quite - Brian asked Vosse to tape street sounds, etc., but the water sounds were taped and/or created by SWD, as Brian had asked him to create a 'water machine' he could play. I interviewed Steve in 1985 and he was quite detailed about it: long story short, he prepared several sets of tapes for a Chamberlain, set it up, Brian played it for maybe ten, fifteen minutes, said it was nice, then promptly forgot about it and never used it again.


Title: Re: Instruments/Production on Cool Cool Water
Post by: Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again on January 19, 2011, 01:15:20 PM
PLEASE MORE DETAILS! MORE MINUTIA!

Cool Cool Water is my favorite Beach Boys song of all time and my single favorite recorded production of all time and the chant in the middle is my all time favorite musical moment EVER..... and when that single bass note comes in after the chant and the "doo doo doo doo's ...... well, that's my single favorite bass (even if it is via a moog) moment EVER!


Title: Re: Instruments/Production on Cool Cool Water
Post by: tpesky on January 19, 2011, 01:43:08 PM
On Endless Harmony, didn't Bruce say something like he and Al went into the vaults and got Cool Cool Water and finished it?


Title: Re: Instruments/Production on Cool Cool Water
Post by: Peter Reum on January 19, 2011, 06:27:30 PM
I agree with Erik that CCW is one of the BBs most outstanding achievements. Lenny Waronker heard Brian do it at the piano in his living room and asked the BBs to put it on Sunflower. Bruce, Carl, and Alan finished what Brian began and added the Water Chants and the synthesizer.When the lyrics date from I am not sure, but it is a great tune! Bruce and Alan are quoted as doing a marathon session to finish it over 36 hours or so.


Title: Re: Instruments/Production on Cool Cool Water
Post by: Joshilyn Hoisington on January 19, 2011, 06:45:36 PM
It's a good question about the bass.  Somebody somewhere, and I honestly don't remember who, had said something about Bruce doing quite a bit of bass around that time, basically touching up things Brian would leave unfinished.  I was surprised to hear this, but I'm just passing that on.  Certainly we're learning that the BBs' studio modus operandi around that time was that just about anybody might have been playing anything.  C-Man might well know who did the bass.  It's pretty minimal as I recall, which does point to one of the band being the culprit.

Is there any example of Brian playing bass in studio as late as 1970?  He's credited on "Susie Cincinnati" but Alan Boyd and others have told me they believe that was actually Brian doing the bass line on an organ.

The basic track for Suzie definitely has Fender bass on it, and it is definitely not Brian--it's not in his idiom. 

My bet is that Daryl Dragon played a lot of bass around this time, but this has never been definitively confirmed or denied by anybody.


Title: Re: Instruments/Production on Cool Cool Water
Post by: adamghost on January 19, 2011, 08:38:27 PM
Sounds right.  And I should have said "A" bass line, not the bass line...


Title: Re: Instruments/Production on Cool Cool Water
Post by: guitarfool2002 on January 19, 2011, 09:29:25 PM
After the initial concept from 1966-67 which saw Brian sending Michael Vosse into the street with a tape recorder to capture water sounds...

Not quite - Brian asked Vosse to tape street sounds, etc., but the water sounds were taped and/or created by SWD, as Brian had asked him to create a 'water machine' he could play. I interviewed Steve in 1985 and he was quite detailed about it: long story short, he prepared several sets of tapes for a Chamberlain, set it up, Brian played it for maybe ten, fifteen minutes, said it was nice, then promptly forgot about it and never used it again.

If we're talking about the water concept itself (not the Sunflower recording), that was in place during Smile.

Not quite, redux  8): This is Vosse in his own words before Sunflower's version of Cool Cool Water was released, talking specifically about water sounds (not street sounds) and Brian's concept of editing them together musically. I'm saying the concept was there in 1967, specifically using the pitch of the water sounds to construct the melody.

Brian had simply asked Desper for something he had already dreamed up with Vosse's water-taping project in mind during Smile. It just took a few years and a creative engineer to try to make it happen.

The excerpt from the Vosse article, 1969:

(http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n295/guitarfool2002/fusion1awater.jpg)


Title: Re: Instruments/Production on Cool Cool Water
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on January 20, 2011, 12:54:32 AM
Interview with SWD, March 1985:

AGD: To my knowledge, you first worked for Brian when you mixed Friends in stereo..

SWD: Officially, but I'd done some work for Brian way before that... I guess it must've been during the Smile period. I made a water machine for him. It was a very interesting project but unfortunately he was undergoing one of his more superstitious phases, and I got fired. All I said as I was leaving one day was "have a nice evening" - and that was it, I was out ! he got over it in a month of so...

Anyway, this machine was a Chamberlain, very much like a mellotron... and Brian wanted to be able to play water drops on it. So I hiked up into the mountains and recorded all kinds of waterfalls, babbling brooks and so forth, then back in town I recorded stuff like water dripping into saucers - and believe me, that's hard to do - and air bubbling up through 20 gallons of goo that I mixed up in an old oil drum. Reels of stuff like that, and I took all these different water sounds to a friend who'd invented a machine - and remember this was way back before EMUs and Fairlights - that was like a harmoniser, only a lot more sophisticated because it was mechanical. It was used in movies and what it could do was change the pitch of something without altering its duration. So, I took single water drops and all the other noises, put them through the machine and made 25 copies, each a half step in the musical scale, so Brian would have two and a half octaves per sound, i think. All this took three, four months, and at the end of it you could sit down at the Chamberlain and play four or five different kind of water noises - single drops, running streams, waterfalls, gloops. And of course, unlike the early synthesizers, you could play chords. So I set it up in a studio, Brian comes in, played it for five, ten minutes, said it was very nice, and never touched it again


Title: Re: Instruments/Production on Cool Cool Water
Post by: Sam_BFC on January 20, 2011, 03:41:24 AM
I wonder what became of it?????  :o

Very nice story AGD ;)


Title: Re: Instruments/Production on Cool Cool Water
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on January 20, 2011, 04:54:40 AM
I wonder what became of it?????  :o

Very nice story AGD ;)

Steve remembers the tapes were all wiped, hence when it came the time to do "CCW" they had to do the drip-drops on a Moog.


Title: Re: Instruments/Production on Cool Cool Water
Post by: bgas on January 20, 2011, 07:08:08 AM
I wonder what became of it?????  :o

Very nice story AGD ;)

Steve remembers the tapes were all wiped, hence when it came the time to do "CCW" they had to do the drip-drops on a Moog.

After the initial concept from 1966-67 which saw Brian sending Michael Vosse into the street with a tape recorder to capture water sounds...

Not quite - Brian asked Vosse to tape street sounds, etc., but the water sounds were taped and/or created by SWD, as Brian had asked him to create a 'water machine' he could play. I interviewed Steve in 1985 and he was quite detailed about it: long story short, he prepared several sets of tapes for a Chamberlain, set it up, Brian played it for maybe ten, fifteen minutes, said it was nice, then promptly forgot about it and never used it again.

If we're talking about the water concept itself (not the Sunflower recording), that was in place during Smile.

Not quite, redux  8): This is Vosse in his own words before Sunflower's version of Cool Cool Water was released, talking specifically about water sounds (not street sounds) and Brian's concept of editing them together musically. I'm saying the concept was there in 1967, specifically using the pitch of the water sounds to construct the melody.

Brian had simply asked Desper for something he had already dreamed up with Vosse's water-taping project in mind during Smile. It just took a few years and a creative engineer to try to make it happen.

The excerpt from the Vosse article, 1969:

(http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n295/guitarfool2002/fusion1awater.jpg)

So which is it? it seems there are two stories, basically covering the same subject.
A; Vosse  recorded all that himself, WITH Brian alongside;
B; Desper Re-recorded and expanded on what Vosse had done, and then rigged it to a machine.

Some truth to both stories, or one( maybe both) are using info they had from the other ?
I'd guess it's not impossible that Brian had them both do the same thing at different times...


Title: Re: Instruments/Production on Cool Cool Water
Post by: guitarfool2002 on January 20, 2011, 07:54:57 AM
I wonder what became of it?????  :o

Very nice story AGD ;)

And the Vosse story wasn't as nice???  ;D


Title: Re: Instruments/Production on Cool Cool Water
Post by: guitarfool2002 on January 20, 2011, 08:00:30 AM
Here's the way I see it spread out on this page, from the Vosse clip I posted to the Desper clip from AGD's archives:

It's the same story, basically, with the same concept, the same execution, Desper's experience went a step further to actually make it a reality (again he was the creative engineer necessary to make ideas like this happen in reality), and the end point of both tales is that Brian either forgot about it or didn't bother to follow up at all with the ideas.

Again, please chime in, does it not sound VERY much alike to have Brian assigning Vosse the task of recording water in 1967 with an idea of making music based on the pitches of water, then assigning Desper the same job with different locations!

Would the possibility exist that Vosse and Desper were indeed on the same job at the same time, if Desper's suggestion he was working with Brian during Smile is correct in the timeline?

It's all there in black and white.


Title: Re: Instruments/Production on Cool Cool Water
Post by: guitarfool2002 on January 20, 2011, 08:12:31 AM
I'd also add Michael Vosse is quoted in the Byron Preiss book saying this:

"Brian sent me out with a tape recorder to tape water sounds - all kinds of water. He wanted to do a thing with natural sounds. He had me go out and get the sounds of sports - basketballs bouncing...somewhere there are two huge stacks of tape."

Consider this - there IS audio evidence of at least part of what Vosse says he recorded at that time. Whatever else remains of the "huge stacks of tape" is anyone's guess. Also, the first story quote I posted is from 1969. Preiss grabbed quotes from a lot of places but none later than 1978 obviously, so Vosse isn't making claims too far beyond the actual events took place, especially the 1969 article which details even the brand of tape machine Brian gave him to record the sounds and specific places he recorded the water sounds.


Title: Re: Instruments/Production on Cool Cool Water
Post by: The Shift on January 20, 2011, 09:23:28 AM
Is it possible that tapes from both sources were used in the final released version of CCW? There are Moog like noises, others that might be a Chamberlain rigged to play auto-tuned (sorry!) water sound effects, and also  the sound of flowing water (at 3.30, immediately after the water chant).

It's many years since I've heard this on vinyl -  been stuck with CDs for many years  now -  but I do remember the first time I played Sunflower on my mother's high-end hi-fi (a special treat -  I was young, she had to be present to prevent me wrecking the thing; I'd only heard Sunflower on a small mono box record player until that day) and being blown away by all the water sound  effects.  Foremost among those memories is what seemed to be the sound of water being poured from a jug. I don't hear this at all in the CD version. Is my memory faulty, is the CD and inadequate medium, or has it somehow been lost from the remastered version along the way? (was the wrong mix remastered?). Thoughts, facts and opinions welcomed!


Title: Re: Instruments/Production on Cool Cool Water
Post by: Roger Ryan on January 20, 2011, 10:03:28 AM
...Foremost among those memories is what seemed to be the sound of water being poured from a jug.

A similar sound effect (water being poured into a glass) is heard on the SMILEY SMILE version of "Vegetables"; could this be what you're remembering?


Title: Re: Instruments/Production on Cool Cool Water
Post by: The Shift on January 20, 2011, 10:48:58 AM
I know the one you mean... pretty sure it was CCW simply because of the way it blew me away and lodged in my mind (like the first time I heard GVs, S's Up and others)  but then it was a long time ago!  I keep promising myself that I'll get the old turntable up and running again... perhaps this will be the motivator!


Title: Re: Instruments/Production on Cool Cool Water
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on January 20, 2011, 11:49:17 AM
Is it possible that tapes from both sources were used in the final released version of CCW?

Steve stated (as I said) that the Chamberlain tapes he spent months preparing were wiped.


Title: Re: Instruments/Production on Cool Cool Water
Post by: bgas on January 20, 2011, 01:16:48 PM
Is it possible that tapes from both sources were used in the final released version of CCW?

Steve stated (as I said) that the Chamberlain tapes he spent months preparing were wiped.

Brian said the Fire Tapes were burned.


Title: Re: Instruments/Production on Cool Cool Water
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on January 20, 2011, 01:18:55 PM
Is it possible that tapes from both sources were used in the final released version of CCW?

Steve stated (as I said) that the Chamberlain tapes he spent months preparing were wiped.

Brian said the Fire Tapes were burned.

Last time I looked, Stephen W. Desper wasn't Brian D. Wilson.


Title: Re: Instruments/Production on Cool Cool Water
Post by: bgas on January 20, 2011, 01:28:24 PM
Is it possible that tapes from both sources were used in the final released version of CCW?

Steve stated (as I said) that the Chamberlain tapes he spent months preparing were wiped.

Brian said the Fire Tapes were burned.

Last time I looked, Stephen W. Desper wasn't Brian D. Wilson.
And Stephen W Desper is nowhere near being Brian D Wilson  for sure.
But since I'm not trying to be coy, I'll jump right in with " memories are funny things".
Maybe the water tapes were wiped. Maybe he did it himself, tho he/you didn't say that.
Maybe Brian told him he had wiped the tapes and he didn't.
Maybe Steve is mis-remembering and it was some other tapes that were wiped. There's tons of possibilities here.
In the length of time between the taping/wiping and when he talked to you, his memories may have changed. 
I've asked him specifics about recordings he worked on, that he says he has absolutely no recollection of.  Just saying. 


Title: Re: Instruments/Production on Cool Cool Water
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on January 20, 2011, 03:00:24 PM
Is it possible that tapes from both sources were used in the final released version of CCW?

Steve stated (as I said) that the Chamberlain tapes he spent months preparing were wiped.

Brian said the Fire Tapes were burned.

Last time I looked, Stephen W. Desper wasn't Brian D. Wilson.
And Stephen W Desper is nowhere near being Brian D Wilson  for sure.
But since I'm not trying to be coy, I'll jump right in with " memories are funny things".
Maybe the water tapes were wiped. Maybe he did it himself, tho he/you didn't say that.
Maybe Brian told him he had wiped the tapes and he didn't.
Maybe Steve is mis-remembering and it was some other tapes that were wiped. There's tons of possibilities here.
In the length of time between the taping/wiping and when he talked to you, his memories may have changed. 
I've asked him specifics about recordings he worked on, that he says he has absolutely no recollection of.  Just saying. 

Maybe if my aunt had wheels, she'd be a bicycle.

Fact is, when time came to do "C,CW", the tapes were nowhere to be found, which is why they weren't used.

Also, just checked out the song in question - yes, there is the sound of water being poured at 3.30, and I'm betting they got that by recording the sound of water being poured... but not in 1966/7.  :)


Title: Re: Instruments/Production on Cool Cool Water
Post by: bgas on January 20, 2011, 03:28:51 PM
Also, just checked out the song in question - yes, there is the sound of water being poured at 3.30, and I'm betting they got that by recording the sound of water being poured... but not in 1966/7.  :)

Do we have any band interviews to support that?   ;D


Title: Re: Instruments/Production on Cool Cool Water
Post by: The Shift on January 20, 2011, 04:05:15 PM
Also, just checked out the song in question - yes, there is the sound of water being poured at 3.30, and I'm betting they got that by recording the sound of water being poured... but not in 1966/7.  :)

I'm pretty sure that's running water in the open air rather than water being poured -  like a stream running over rocks. The sound I thought I'd heard was more like that which Roger refers to in Vegetables... only I coulda sworn I heard it in CCW!

Minutia? Us?


Title: Re: Instruments/Production on Cool Cool Water
Post by: Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again on January 20, 2011, 04:19:44 PM
How about this for minutia: Were the chant vocals spliced/lifted from the Smile sessions or were they recorded anew for Cool Cool Water? (where they rightly belong. But that's just me)


Title: Re: Instruments/Production on Cool Cool Water
Post by: guitarfool2002 on January 20, 2011, 09:11:52 PM
I copied and saved this thread from somewhere some years ago, probably around 2002/2003 (my file is dated 2003). This is the version of events from the man himself, Stephen Desper, taken from a thread of similar questions written to him about Cool Cool Water. Funny thing is, someone posted how they hoped someone was archiving the thread (raises hand... ;D)

If this information or this re-post of information causes problems for anyone, please let me know and I'll take it down, simple enough.

I underlined and put in bold font one statement of note, otherwise the questions and answers are exactly as they appeared. And whether or not Vosse's water tapes appeared on Sunflower (they did not, I never suggested they did), there is no doubt he recorded tapes around Brian's "Water" concepts in 1966/67, and updated versions of those same concepts were used on the Sunflower recording a few years later.

Enjoy!  :)





I started recording --before-- the Sunflower CCW was recorded, but --after-- Brian had conceived of CCW[/u]. The creation of 2 1/2 octaves of drips by way of the ELTRON machine and subsequent transfer to the small CHAMBERLIN were in progress during the month or two it took to record CCW by the group. There were 30 different types of drips and blubbs recorded, each with 26 notes. That is a lot of work!!

I do not believe so. Earlier versions of CCW with Brian at the piano were recorded as guides to a final production of the song, if it were to come about. Brian wrote and recorded many songs on the piano with him signing (previews) just to keep them from slipping away in his memory. Kinda like you and I writing down ideas we may have so we don't forget them. Then going back and reading our notes to jog our memory.
Good Listening, ~Stephen W. Desper
--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

Replying to:


Mr Desper,

One final question. In your posts here you're indicating that you started work as a engineer on the road with the group first, and then in the studio with Stacks-O-Tracks. Now, there's this story of you beginning to tape the SFX in nature for Brian in January 1967. Even though you're saying that you're not good with dates, this story takes place almost a year before you say you started working for the group: could you confirm if this story of you working for Brian this early on is true or not? To put it simply, were the water sounds collected *before* or *after* work on Cool Cool Water had begun to be recorded by Brian/the group?

The earlier versions of CCW by Brian that you're talking of -are they by any chance the same as the first minute of the final Sunflower version of CCW, which was recorded in the fall of 1967?

(and now I won't bug you anymore!)

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

Replying to:


You know... I'm not good with dates. Ask Brad Elliott via cabinessence.com board about dates. I know Brian had earlier versions of CCW, but they just sat on the tape vault shelf. Carl (and I) conceived the Sunflower version and resurrected the song (in concept) but Carl re-arranged it in its Sunflower form. More on this song in my book RECORDING THE BEACH BOYS. As to the date of the production meeting, I don't know. I do remember that it was rather long and involved, but Brian's involvement came later. That was a difficult time for him.

I was engineering for the BB starting with Stack-O-Tracks and before that engineering on the road.

Moogs could be rented by anyone in Hollywood since their invention. I don't think Brian was into the Moog much before I came along. Robert Moog designed the stage one for Good Vibs that Michael Love played. He designed it to be a playable unit unlike the Theriman unit used for the recording. He designed it, but it was built by someone else. The use of Robert Moog was not by Brian's request, rather by Steve Korthof, his cozen and road manager. The BB were the first RR group to use a Moog on any song, as Robert Moog recalls. The unit Robert designed was really a ribbon controlled oscillator - very easy to play. Some people thought it was a slide guitar as it looked kinda like that from off the stage in the audience. The boys had two units -- one a backup. In more recent concerts the use of a synthesizer in place of the Moog unit has come about. But to my ears, it's just not the same sound. Mike also used it for stage performances of "Stay Away When There's A Riot Goin' On."

Actually none of the BB knew how to program the Moog and looked to me for that function as their engineer. Dennis never liked the Moog beast and forsaw it being a replacement for live musicians years before that came about.

Hope that helps, ~Stephen W. Desper



--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

Replying to:


Mr Desper,

to the best of your knowledge, would this production meeting concerning Cool Cool Water have taken place in late 1966, early 1967, or later? I'm trying to piece together some sort of timeline, and I believe it's been previously said that you began collecting the water sounds in January, 1967. According to Brian, Cool Cool Water was written three months later, right after he had moved into his new Bellagio house in April. Now, if one is to believe Brian's account, and it was in April 1967 or later that you collected the SFX for Cool Cool Water, what was the purpose of the water SFX recordings in January when you were first hired by Brian? If I have gotten everything wrong, please correct me. You have probably said all this before, but could you, in short, give us a more exact date of when you were first hired by Brian, and what he initially wanted you to do for him, and what his intents with the SFX you recorded for him were? I know that the making of Cool Cool Water is something that you're saving for your website, but could you just give us a litle idea?

Also, to your knowledge, do you know if Brian had had access to the moog before you became an engineer for the group?

Thanks for taking the time answering these detailed and geeky questions of mine!! 

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

Replying to:
This so called "great stuff" is all archived by myself -- typical engineer. I have to date 63 pages of commentary on various subjects ask of me by fans that I have posted on this and other boards. These pages of commentary plus my book RECORDING THE BEACH BOYS (an in-depth examination of the recording of "Sunflower" and "Surf's Up") will soon be accessible on my website. The website is over 2 gigs large, rather much for a personal website, so it is taking a little time to get up and going. I'll post a link when we launch.
Good Listening, ~Stephen W. Desper

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

Replying to:


I hope someone is archiving all this great stuff from Stephen...

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

Replying to:


When we had our first production meeting concerning "Cool, Cool Water" I suggested the use of real water sounds recorded using an ELTRO machine (Eventide Harmonizer was not invented yet) to first shift the pitch making 2 1/2 octave half-note steps and to transfer all the notes to a small Chamberlin machine. Mangagement said to "go for it" and so I took off to northern California with my portable NAGRA profession tape recorder and a good microphone to capture running water sounds in the wild. Later I also recorded air making blubb-type sounds as blown air came up through flower mixed with water in large buckets. This too was put into 2 1/2 octave steps. It was not until this entire project was finished that Brian even became aware of what I was doing.

Brian started using Moogs when I came on as engineer. Theretofore he hired a Moog Player (Paul Beaver) to generate Moog sounds which were few. I bought a large Moog machine for the group (about eight feet wide and four feet high) and registered myself with the musicians union as a Moog player so I could get union scale for playing when called upon. Brian never learned about programming and would only play the keys to make the sounds I had programmed. It required an engineer's knowledge to run the early Moogs.
 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

MELLOTRON -- CHAMBERLAIN. While in England on tour, The Beach Boys had a chance to "play" with the Beatles' Mellotron at Abby Roads Studios. Seeing it's advantage (the most early example of sampled sound) they also wanted one for Brian's house studio. The Mellotron was hard to find in the US, but I did locate two Chamberlain units (one full keyboard and one two-octave keyboard) which they bought and used. The small one I re-programmed for water sounds to be used for "Cool Cool Water." The larger one was used for making broad harmonic violin pads and such. Carl and Dennis used it more, but Brian used it little because each sound only lasted a few seconds. He became fed-up with that restriction and sold the unit after a few months.

Both units worked using the same design. A four foot long 1/4 tape "thread" was hung from a point high up in the inside of the case with a weight on the bottom of the tape-thread to pull it tight. Every key had a thread, so there were 52 tape-threads hanging the length of the case. Each thread passed over a horizontal spinning rod of steel, but the spinning rod did not influence or move the tape. Each key had a small rubber wheel attached to its mechanism. When the key was depressed, the wheel (back inside the case) came into contact with the tape-thread, pressing it onto the spinning steel rod (running the length of the case). This in turn caused the tape to rise up and pass by a playback head making a signal that lasted until the length of the thread reached the end, about four seconds. When the key was released the tape-thread fell back to the bottom and was again ready for engagement by another key pressing. In today's digital world this all sounds very primitive, but it did work rather well within the constrants of the design. It was certainly cheaper than hiring a full violin section.

see: http://www.e-prog.net/bands/mellotron.htm for more info on MELLOTRON and CHAMBERLAIN.

Happy Listening, even if sampled, ~Stephen W. Desper

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The large Chamberlin used tapes recorded by the factory.

The small Chamberlin, I modified so that I could use each of its internal playback heads for recording or re-recording each of the tape-threads in the instrument without needing to remove them from the unit. I assembled a variety of water sounds and bubble sounds tuned in one-half note steps for a 2˝ octave spread – to be used for “Cool, Cool Water” – and installed or recorded them one by one into the smaller Chamberlin.

Happy Listening, ~Stephen W. Desper


Title: Re: Instruments/Production on Cool Cool Water
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on January 21, 2011, 01:20:58 AM
How about this for minutia: Were the chant vocals spliced/lifted from the Smile sessions or were they recorded anew for Cool Cool Water? (where they rightly belong. But that's just me)

The accepted wisdom is that they're of Smile-era vintage.

For now...  ;)


Title: Re: Instruments/Production on Cool Cool Water
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on January 21, 2011, 01:24:58 AM
I copied and saved this thread from somewhere some years ago, probably around 2002/2003 (my file is dated 2003). This is the version of events from the man himself, Stephen Desper, taken from a thread of similar questions written to him about Cool Cool Water. Funny thing is, someone posted how they hoped someone was archiving the thread (raises hand... ;D)

If this information or this re-post of information causes problems for anyone, please let me know and I'll take it down, simple enough.

I underlined and put in bold font one statement of note, otherwise the questions and answers are exactly as they appeared. And whether or not Vosse's water tapes appeared on Sunflower (they did not, I never suggested they did), there is no doubt he recorded tapes around Brian's "Water" concepts in 1966/67, and updated versions of those same concepts were used on the Sunflower recording a few years later.

Thanks for that - most illuminating. As for "And whether or not Vosse's water tapes appeared on Sunflower (they did not, I never suggested they did)", no you didn't... but someone else did, also asking if maybe Steve's tapes did as well, this after I'd posted that his tapes were wiped. I can accept being asked the same question multiple times on other boards, but here I expect a higher level of not only knowledge, but also reading ability.  ;)


Title: Re: Instruments/Production on Cool Cool Water
Post by: c-man on January 21, 2011, 05:55:06 AM
To my ears, the final "Sunflower" version incorporates the original 1967 version in the first half, then uses the "SMiLE"-era water vocal chants in the middle, mixed in with sound effects, then moves into a newly-recorded final verse.

The AFM contract for the original 1967 "Wild Honey" version of "Cool, Cool Water" lists all six Beach Boys, plus Dianne Rovell and engineers Bill Halverson and Jim Lockert.  The contract for the 1970 session for "Cool, Cool Water" lists Alan, Bruce, Brian, Carl, and Moog programmer Paul Beaver.

In the Preiss book, Al is quoted:  "Cool Water - Carl, Mike, and Bruce Johnston and I spent forty-eight hours straight dubbing down 'Cool Water'.  It was like being on another planet.  It was really something...We didn't realize the time was going by, it was so enjoyable".  Not sure what the original source is for that quote, as Preiss used lots of quotes from other sources with no mention made of their origins.  No mention of Brian.

In 1981, Brad Elliott asked Bruce about the song being started in the "Wild Honey" era.  Bruce replied "Well, 'Cool, Cool Water' was started about that time.  In '70, Al and I dredged it up again and made Brian finish it".  Elliott asked if Brian actually finished it, to which Bruce replied "Absolutely".

Interestingly, the 1981 anthology "Ten Years Of Harmony" provides detailed producer credits for each individual cut.  The credit for "Cool, Cool Water" reads "Produced by Brian Wilson", while the credits for other "Sunflower" and "Surf's Up" cuts ("This Whole World", "Til i Die", and "Surf's Up) all read "Produced by Brian Wilson and Carl Wilson".

My thought, based on all this, is that once Lenny Warnoker heard Brian play it at Bellagio, Brian was "made" to finish the writing and recording of the song, which was then mixed (or "dubbed") by Carl, Mike, Al, and Bruce (with Desper), in Brian's absence, over a two-day non-stop period (Brian happily left the mixing to them, since he really only mixed in mono himself, and this was stereo with a quad matrix).

Stephen Desper wrote this about "Cool, Cool Water"'s bass sound (speaking in the third person): "The bass sound, composed and played by Desper (who is not a bass player), was programmed from scratch, it is not a sample...".  Interestingly, despite having joined the union as a Moog player specifically so he could play on BBs records, Desper's name is missing from all the AFM contracts for BBs sessions around that time.


Title: Re: Instruments/Production on Cool Cool Water
Post by: adamghost on January 21, 2011, 11:42:56 AM
So Desper played bass on it?  That would explain the awesome tone and minimal technique (not meaning that as a diss).


Title: Re: Instruments/Production on Cool Cool Water
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on January 21, 2011, 01:35:12 PM
So Desper played bass on it?  That would explain the awesome tone and minimal technique (not meaning that as a diss).

Moog bass... I think. Maybe.


Title: Re: Instruments/Production on Cool Cool Water
Post by: Steve Mayo on January 21, 2011, 01:38:38 PM
there was a 6 part bbc beach boys special from 1974 with , i think, bob harris. i may have that name wrong. anyway on the part on sunflower, alan talks about ccw and how they spent 2 sunrises finishing it up for sunflower. great special. almost 6 hours long.


Title: Re: Instruments/Production on Cool Cool Water
Post by: Sam_BFC on January 21, 2011, 04:00:30 PM
Radio or TV?


Title: Re: Instruments/Production on Cool Cool Water
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on January 21, 2011, 04:16:15 PM
Radio - it was originally broadcast in 1974, then re-broadcast in 1976 with an updated ending. The interviews were exhaustive, and included just about everyone - except Brian.  many years later on his local radio show, Bob Harris told how he almost got to interview Brian in 1974, but was foiled by the piano tuner.  ;D


Title: Re: Instruments/Production on Cool Cool Water
Post by: c-man on January 21, 2011, 07:22:57 PM
So Desper played bass on it?  That would explain the awesome tone and minimal technique (not meaning that as a diss).

Moog bass... I think. Maybe.

Yes, it's clear from the whole thing that's what he meant.