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Smiley Smile Stuff => General On Topic Discussions => Topic started by: Andrew G. Doe on December 03, 2010, 12:04:45 PM



Title: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on December 03, 2010, 12:04:45 PM
Just been having a most interesting email dialog with Carrie Marks, and thought I'd ask for thoughts and musings here, it being after all the best place for such.

While she & David were in LA doing his lastest album, she told me JoAnn (David's mom) said that Murry & Audree didn't go to Mexico, but rather to England to visit the company he imported ABLE's lathes from (she even recalled the name, Binns & Berry of Halifax, who are still in busines !).

So... thoughts ?


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: Cam Mott on December 03, 2010, 12:13:03 PM
Sounds like an excuse for a daytrip to Halifax.


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on December 03, 2010, 12:29:33 PM
Sounds like an excuse for a daytrip to Halifax.

Never been to Halifax, have you, ol' pal ?  ;D


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: adamghost on December 03, 2010, 12:39:24 PM
I went to Nova Scotia when I was 4...


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: Louie Napoli on December 03, 2010, 12:51:44 PM
England for the weekend? From California? And after all this time, the story changes? Oh well, historically, that could be a given.


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on December 03, 2010, 01:10:19 PM
England for the weekend? From California? And after all this time, the story changes? Oh well, historically, that could be a given.

Who said anything about a weekend ?  That's what we've always believed. Because that's what we've always been told. Think about this: according to the legend, Murry left a fully stocked refrigerator and gave them $300 for food/emergencies. That's roughly $34 per Wilson per day. At 1961 prices, even Carl couldn't have eaten $34 worth of burritos a day for three days. In one interview Carl said it was five days... even so, that's $20 a day each.

Here's another one: Alan's mom signed for the rental of the string bass, for $300 (hmmm... that figure again). Did a bass fiddle rental in 1961 really cost $100 - or even $60 - a day ?


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: Cam Mott on December 03, 2010, 01:32:53 PM
Sounds like an excuse for a daytrip to Halifax.

Never been to Halifax, have you, ol' pal ?  ;D

Me neither, pal o' mine. Let me know how it was.


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: The Shift on December 03, 2010, 02:23:55 PM
As a son of Halifax, I am gladdened.


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on December 03, 2010, 02:51:49 PM
As a son of Halifax, I am gladdened.

Ah, excellent - I'll PM you the address, you can save me a train fare.  ;D


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: bgas on December 03, 2010, 04:09:27 PM
As a son of Halifax, I am gladdened.

Ah, excellent - I'll PM you the address, you can save me a train fare.  ;D

HA!  I can just see you now, walking in the office and asking if they remember the visit by Murry and Audrey! 


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: ♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇 on December 03, 2010, 05:32:20 PM
Time to update the Beach Boys "Mythbusters" thread again, perhaps ^_^


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: Mikie on December 03, 2010, 07:46:43 PM
Here's what I'm wondering:

1. Who originated the story that Murry & Audrey went to Mexico over Labor Day weekend.
2. Why, after all these years during interviews, none of the Beach Boys or Wilson/Love/Marks/Jardine family members ever corrected the story from the Wilson parents' vacation to Mexico (or wherever) to a business-related trip to England? Did they forget, or a vacation to Mexico sounded like a better story?
3. Why, after all these years, authors of articles and books never got the story straight? Same reason it was thought for years that Murry fired David?
4. Did Murry ever hit on JoAnne Marks?


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: Carrie Marks on December 03, 2010, 08:43:48 PM
Here's what I'm wondering:

1. Who originated the story that Murry & Audrey went to Mexico over Labor Day weekend.
2. Why, after all these years during interviews, none of the Beach Boys or Wilson/Love/Marks/Jardine family members ever corrected the story from the Wilson parents' vacation to Mexico (or wherever) to a business-related trip to England? Did they forget, or a vacation to Mexico sounded like a better story?
3. Why, after all these years, authors of articles and books never got the story straight? Same reason it was thought for years that Murry fired David?
4. Did Murry ever hit on JoAnne Marks?

1.  Not sure, but I do know the story was spun sometime in 1964.  The band's first bio, written by Murry himself, credits David with having been there from the start...even including him as part of the Surfin' sessions.

2.  Jo Ann didn't know about the Mexico thing.  She mentioned England when I tried to explain to her why people believe (wrongly) that David wasn't an original BB.  She wasn't totally aware of the fabricated version of the band's genesis before...she operated under the assumption people knew the truth.

3.  That would be my guess.  Its also the same reason people don't think Dennis played drums on as many songs as he did.

4.  Yes, he did.  This incident occurred after Murry sent Audree and Elmer Marks to Hawaii to road-mange the Boys together and her rejection only compounded the growing tension between the 2 families.  Upon their return, Elmer was fired as road manager and David's share of the touring revenues are cut off.  That was beginning of the end for David. 


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: Mikie on December 03, 2010, 09:55:17 PM
Thanks for that, Carrie. I was a little hesitant about asking the last question, but was feeling a little smart-assy tonight, so I hope I didn't offend. It may have been touched on in the Stebbins book and/or another board before, but I thought I'd ask about it here. I had a feeling that may have been one of the reasons behind Dave's departure.


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: Jon Stebbins on December 03, 2010, 10:20:14 PM
Jo Ann told me that Murry insisted she sit in between he and Audree in the front seat of the car when they were all going somewhere together...which really creeped her out because the back seat was empty.


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: Beach Head on December 04, 2010, 12:07:49 AM
Isn't there a first person recollection from some British business acquaintance of Murry's about that trip to Mexico? I seem to recall it appeared in somebody's book - not a book on the Beach Boys, but one by somebody who spent a number of years in the music business. Does that ring any bells with anybody? (I've always thought it was concluded some time ago that the story put to rest any questions about the trip. No?)


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on December 04, 2010, 01:11:37 AM
Isn't there a first person recollection from some British business acquaintance of Murry's about that trip to Mexico? I seem to recall it appeared in somebody's book - not a book on the Beach Boys, but one by somebody who spent a number of years in the music business. Does that ring any bells with anybody? (I've always thought it was concluded some time ago that the story put to rest any questions about the trip. No?)

Yes, there is, and if I was in any way a good researcher I'd have filed it. I distinctly recall the author said that the song - "Surfin'" - "made you feel like relaxey-vouzing"... which kinda made me do a double take, of course. We'll find it again. We always do. Because it's what we do.  ;D  And of course, just because it's written in a book doesn't make it what actually happened.

I'm more interested in finding out what really happened when the band rehearsed "Surfin'", as when you look closely at the accepted tale, it just starts falling apart. As Carrie said, I don't recall any primary/contemporary sources referring to it being the Labor Day weekend... if I'm wrong, please correct me.

And yes, I can also see the holes in Jo Ann's recollection, but then, we as fans have reconciled, or patched, bigger holes in accepted BB history: Alan leaves the band to go to Ferris U., anyone ?  ;D  Don't know about anyone else, but I'd call Jo Ann Marks a credible first-hand source. One thing I've discovered these last few years is that the Marks family has a dominant memory gene.


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: Beach Head on December 04, 2010, 01:33:16 AM
As Carrie said, I don't recall any primary/contemporary sources referring to it being the Labor Day weekend.

If memory serves me, even the recollection from Murry's friend - while it does confirm a trip to Mexico (as opposed to England) - doesn't specifically place the trip as being on Labor Day weekend.

Unfortunately, as "mythological" as the story has become, it may be impossible now to pin down the precise facts. Several of the original participants (Murry, Carl, Dennis) are gone, and I'm not sure I'd trust what some of the remaining participants (Brian, Mike, Al) might have to say about it. All of them, at one time or another, have told stories of the group's early days that are proveably false. Has anybody ever asked Audree her recollections of the group's start?


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: Mike's Beard on December 04, 2010, 01:38:04 AM
England for the weekend? From California? And after all this time, the story changes? Oh well, historically, that could be a given.

Who said anything about a weekend ?  That's what we've always believed. Because that's what we've always been told. Think about this: according to the legend, Murry left a fully stocked refrigerator and gave them $300 for food/emergencies. That's roughly $34 per Wilson per day. At 1961 prices, even Carl couldn't have eaten $34 worth of burritos a day for three days. In one interview Carl said it was five days... even so, that's $20 a day each.

Here's another one: Alan's mom signed for the rental of the string bass, for $300 (hmmm... that figure again). Did a bass fiddle rental in 1961 really cost $100 - or even $60 - a day ?

I've always thought that figure to be high. With inflation factored in, wouldn't that be about $1000 in today's currency? For what? To feed 3 teenagers over a weekend? No wonder Carl was the size he was!


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: adamghost on December 04, 2010, 02:01:11 AM
Seriously, this is good stuff because the whole story never quite made sense to me.


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on December 04, 2010, 02:11:12 AM
Unfortunately, as "mythological" as the story has become, it may be impossible now to pin down the precise facts.

Very likely, but that's never stopped us before... and isn't it fun ?  ;D


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: The Shift on December 04, 2010, 02:37:58 AM
As a son of Halifax, I am gladdened.

Ah, excellent - I'll PM you the address, you can save me a train fare.  ;D

I'm curious enough to give it a go when I'm next visiting my folks an have an hour to spare!


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: Zander on December 04, 2010, 04:09:50 AM
Sounds like an excuse for a daytrip to Halifax.

Never been to Halifax, have you, ol' pal ?  ;D

Well worth a trip to Halifax, surprisingly beautiful place! I went to see the Bootleg Beatles at the theatre there in March. Lovely architecture and scenery which was not what I expected at all. An even more interesting place now...


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: Zander on December 04, 2010, 04:22:07 AM
Here's the contact info for the firm...

http://www.uk-local-search.co.uk/business/binns+_+berry+international+ltd/198543/

Funnily enough the contact is called Carl - what a coincidence  ::)


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: The Shift on December 04, 2010, 05:20:46 AM
hmmm, used to live within a half-mile of this place. I'll look into legends of one-eyed Americans trying to pick up the biker chicks in the Upper George...!


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: Rob Dean on December 04, 2010, 07:09:20 AM
Actually Guys , This myth was broken as far back as 1977 when Dennis (during a radio interview for P.O.B.)  mentioned that his parents had gone to Europe . ;)


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on December 04, 2010, 07:46:11 AM
Actually Guys , This myth was broken as far back as 1977 when Dennis (during a radio interview for P.O.B.)  mentioned that his parents had gone to Europe . ;)

Waiter ! One large sloppy wet kiss for Mr. Dean - put it on my tab.  ;D


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: Rob Dean on December 04, 2010, 07:49:31 AM
Actually Guys , This myth was broken as far back as 1977 when Dennis (during a radio interview for P.O.B.)  mentioned that his parents had gone to Europe . ;)

Waiter ! One large sloppy wet kiss for Mr. Dean - put it on my tab.  ;D

Andrew , you are so kind !!! But can i please have it off of the waitress  :lol


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on December 04, 2010, 08:15:11 AM
OK... been doing some research.

In Leaf's book Audree is quoted about it at some length and yes, she says they took some English friends to Mexico City "for a three day trip" (no mention of Labor Day), and Dorinda Morgan, in Byron Preiss' book recalls "Murry called us up and said 'see if you can do something with him (Brian), Audree & I are going to Mexico City'". Annoyingly, no source notes are provided.

So, looks like they did go to Mexico City, with or without their 'English friends' (who, it occurs to me, pretty much have to be in some way involved with Murry's business and/or Berry & Binns, unless someone can come up with a brighter idea  :)) but crucially, no-one mentions Labor Day.

Given that Rob has provided at least partial confirmation that Murry & Audree went to Europe during the period in question, allied with Jo Ann's recollection (which David also remembers), I'd say the whole Labor Day-Mexico-$300 food money-rent a bass for $300 more-edifice is looking some shaky.

'Course, it would be just so helpful if Binns & Berry got back to me and said something like "Murry Wilson ? Sure, he was at the factory early September 1961 - had his wife with him as well"... but that ain't gonna happen (is it ?).

So. Back to the legwork. Man, I loooooooooove this kind of thing.


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: PongHit on December 04, 2010, 09:07:33 AM
I think it's cool you guys are trying to figure this out, but does it really matter where they went?


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on December 04, 2010, 09:12:52 AM
I think it's cool you guys are trying to figure this out, but does it really matter where they went?

Yup.

Next question.


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: c-man on December 04, 2010, 09:13:26 AM
Actually Guys , This myth was broken as far back as 1977 when Dennis (during a radio interview for P.O.B.)  mentioned that his parents had gone to Europe . ;)

Damn, Rob, you beat me to it! (I didn't get up early enough this morning, having hit a local bar & grill last night...it was Friday, after all)...but at least I don't have to worry about the large sloppy wet kiss from AGD...you can have it, Rob!

Seriously, when I first heard that remark from Dennis in the 1977 interview, my first reaction was that Dennis was appallingly challenged geography-wise...then I decided that he was just having a memory spasm.  But, given other tidbits in this thread, I now wonder...


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: Jon Stebbins on December 04, 2010, 09:16:36 AM
Here's something else to consider...John Maus (who became John Walker of the Walker Brothers) was David and Carl's first guitar teacher. His affiliation with the two future Beach Boys started in 1959. Both he and David told me in separate conversations that "the group" meaning some form of what would become the Beach Boys rehearsed in the Maus family garage, and that John's dad thought they were awful and kicked them out. Maus takes this a step further in the Walker Bros. biography No Regrets by saying the future Beach Boys, including David were rehearsing the song "Surfin'" at his home, and said , "my father didn't like the song too much and didn't have a lot of hopes for the Beach Boys but the record came out on Candix and was a big hit." Verifying this, Gary Leeds (Gary Walker) recalls being at the Maus home when the "Beach Boys" were rehearsing and that they "drove John's parents crazy". Obviously The Lost Beach Boy book more than confirmed that David and Carl were making music together, sometimes with Brian, for years before the "Labor Day" event. Dave has spotty memories of Mike being there too but the chronology regarding Mike was fuzzy when we did the book. Maus insisted to me it was "the whole band" including David, Carl, Brian, Dennis and Mike playing at his home prior to the release of Surfin. I think if you add this to the questions regarding "Labor Day" you see that the genesis of the group is not what so many books and articles have told us it was, in fact, as Carrie stated the Labor Day story really feels ready made for the press in '64 post Al becoming permanent Beach Boy #5. I'm not saying there was not a weekend when the Wilsons were gone, and that the boys including Al rented instruments and worked on Surfin, I'm just saying I think the band probably grew out of many get togethers and rehearsals and that that convenient Labor Day story as being the BIG BANG is nothing more than Murry spin which entrenched itself in BB's lore starting way after the fact.


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: PongHit on December 04, 2010, 09:19:50 AM
Next question.

Why does it matter?


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: c-man on December 04, 2010, 09:23:48 AM

It just does, that's all.   :p


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: Jason on December 04, 2010, 09:31:24 AM
The Beach Boys world is full of little idiosyncrasies. THREADS, blueboard pre-concert meetup/singalong/dinner/dancing/copulation sessions, "I won't pay for CDRs of Al's new LP", "Brian Wilson is a genius", and so on.

We've come to accept them as all part of that glorious whole we call the Beach Boys' fanbase. :)


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on December 04, 2010, 09:47:58 AM

It matters because I find this kind of thing fascinating, the more so because there's a chance of throwing a little light on something that smells a little odd to me. You could just as reasonably ask, why does it matter who wrote "Good Vibrations" ?


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on December 04, 2010, 09:49:51 AM
The Beach Boys world is full of little idiosyncrasies. THREADS, blueboard pre-concert meetup/singalong/dinner/dancing/copulation sessions, "I won't pay for CDRs of Al's new LP", "Brian Wilson is a genius", and so on.

We've come to accept them as all part of that glorious whole we call the Beach Boys' fanbase. :)

Personally speaking, I have never copulated with anyone, irrespective of gender or orientation, at any pre-or post BW-meetings.

But I live in hope...


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: c-man on December 04, 2010, 10:02:06 AM
FYI, the Dennis interview mentioned is with KUGN-FM, in Eugene, Oregon, Fall of '77.  I quote it extensively in my POB/Bambu essay (www.beachboysarchives.com).


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on December 04, 2010, 10:20:43 AM
FYI, the Dennis interview mentioned is with KUGN-FM, in Eugene, Oregon, Fall of '77.  I quote it extensively in my POB/Bambu essay (www.beachboysarchives.com).

Perchance do you have a transcript of the salient part to hand ?  ::)


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: Jon Stebbins on December 04, 2010, 10:42:05 AM


Why does it matter?
Honestly? You have been around this board for awhile, you've scanned page after page of questions that have been posed here, many of which have little or nothing to do with anything of real importance regarding the Beach Boys and their history. You've started threads about how you can turn your iphone into a woody, and where we should place Lets Call The Whole Thing Of on BWRG. But you choose to ask why a thread essential to the fundamental understanding of the very formation and birth of the band we discuss here matters? Whoa man...that's a strange set of priorities.


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: c-man on December 04, 2010, 11:05:05 AM
FYI, the Dennis interview mentioned is with KUGN-FM, in Eugene, Oregon, Fall of '77.  I quote it extensively in my POB/Bambu essay (www.beachboysarchives.com).

Perchance do you have a transcript of the salient part to hand ?  ::)

Ah, but of course!  Just happened to have a CDR that I'd burned of that very interview sitting about a foot away from my computer, right next to my printer, where it's been for probably the past two years now...realizing that today is Dennis' birthday makes it all the more fitting!

INTERVIEWER: When did the Beach Boys actually get together, when did the three of you decide that you wanted to do something, wanted to actually form a band and get away from just singing in the back of your parents' car?

DENNIS: Ohh um, just different things...I was not involved with a couple of the high school projects, y'know...and a matter of fact, I watched them, y'know, and giggled at the audience, y'know...uh, as far as the group goes, I just remember my parents...um...leaving for Europe and left us some food money, an' we took the food money an' went down and bought instruments, and put 'em downstairs in the, where we had a garage that my dad turned into a, like a den; it was a total failure den, until we got the instruments in there, and then it was perfect; a little place to play, and so that's what we did.


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: Beekeeper on December 04, 2010, 11:14:41 AM
... I'm just saying I think the band probably grew out of many get togethers and rehearsals and that that convenient Labor Day story as being the BIG BANG is nothing more than Murry spin which entrenched itself in BB's lore starting way after the fact.

I believe Mr Stebbins has hit the nail on the proverbial head here.

Murry, always the promoter, probably wanted a story that could be easily repeated to DJ's, record company execs, that was short, interesting and showed the BB's as having the ability to come up with a song and have an immediate hit on their hands.

Its more interesting than having to explain David Marks and Al Jardine and how they were in the band and then left the band etc...  ;)

Beekeper


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on December 04, 2010, 11:20:02 AM
FYI, the Dennis interview mentioned is with KUGN-FM, in Eugene, Oregon, Fall of '77.  I quote it extensively in my POB/Bambu essay (www.beachboysarchives.com).

Perchance do you have a transcript of the salient part to hand ?  ::)

Ah, but of course!  Just happened to have a CDR that I'd burned of that very interview sitting about a foot away from my computer, right next to my printer, where it's been for probably the past two years now...realizing that today is Dennis' birthday makes it all the more fitting!

INTERVIEWER: When did the Beach Boys actually get together, when did the three of you decide that you wanted to do something, wanted to actually form a band and get away from just singing in the back of your parents' car?

DENNIS: Ohh um, just different things...I was not involved with a couple of the high school projects, y'know...and a matter of fact, I watched them, y'know, and giggled at the audience, y'know...uh, as far as the group goes, I just remember my parents...um...leaving for Europe and left us some food money, an' we took the food money an' went down and bought instruments, and put 'em downstairs in the, where we had a garage that my dad turned into a, like a den; it was a total failure den, until we got the instruments in there, and then it was perfect; a little place to play, and so that's what we did.

Waiter ! Another big wet sloppy kiss for my American friend - on my tab again.  ;D


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: c-man on December 04, 2010, 11:25:41 AM
FYI, the Dennis interview mentioned is with KUGN-FM, in Eugene, Oregon, Fall of '77.  I quote it extensively in my POB/Bambu essay (www.beachboysarchives.com).

Perchance do you have a transcript of the salient part to hand ?  ::)

Ah, but of course!  Just happened to have a CDR that I'd burned of that very interview sitting about a foot away from my computer, right next to my printer, where it's been for probably the past two years now...realizing that today is Dennis' birthday makes it all the more fitting!

INTERVIEWER: When did the Beach Boys actually get together, when did the three of you decide that you wanted to do something, wanted to actually form a band and get away from just singing in the back of your parents' car?

DENNIS: Ohh um, just different things...I was not involved with a couple of the high school projects, y'know...and a matter of fact, I watched them, y'know, and giggled at the audience, y'know...uh, as far as the group goes, I just remember my parents...um...leaving for Europe and left us some food money, an' we took the food money an' went down and bought instruments, and put 'em downstairs in the, where we had a garage that my dad turned into a, like a den; it was a total failure den, until we got the instruments in there, and then it was perfect; a little place to play, and so that's what we did.

Waiter ! Another big wet sloppy kiss for my American friend - on my tab again.  ;D

Gee...thanks!


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: Myk Luhv on December 04, 2010, 11:50:05 AM


Why does it matter?
Honestly? You have been around this board for awhile, you've scanned page after page of questions that have been posed here, many of which have little or nothing to do with anything of real importance regarding the Beach Boys and their history. You've started threads about how you can turn your iphone into a woody, and where we should place Lets Call The Whole Thing Of on BWRG. But you choose to ask why a thread essential to the fundamental understanding of the very formation and birth of the band we discuss here matters? Whoa man...that's a strange set of priorities.

(http://sae.tweek.us/static/images/emoticons/emot-damn.gif)


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: adamghost on December 04, 2010, 12:31:50 PM
Couple thoughts that may not matter that much, but just thinking about it from the ground floor perspective...

When I was in my teen years I grew up in a small town and there were about five people in our high school who could play rock music.  We had nearly nothing to do with each others' tastes but the pool was so limited and the town so small that we were always getting together and recombining with one another in various permutations.  It wasn't until I was 18 and this had been going on for three years or so that it coalesced into an official "band" and even then it was several months before we started playing out.  But the same 3 or 4 people were always getting together in the years before that in twos and threes and occasionally with outsiders to jam.

Hawthorne's a bigger place than my home town but I would guess that Brian's neighborhood functioned much the same way, with Brian's presence and Murry's music room functioning as a hub of activity.  It makes sense to me that David and Carl were off doing their social/music thing (as Jon reports in his book), Brian and Mike theirs, Dennis off on his own, but interest, logistics and proximity meant that on occasion they'd join forces in various combinations.  Al's entry on the scene seems to have been a catalyst to take this all to the next level, which also makes sense since he would be the outsider that kind of shakes things up and opens eyes to new possibilities.  But that's just the way teenage bands tend to work, at least in my experience.  They just evolve based on proximity and availability.

The second thing that occurs to me is that Murry was probably paying about as much close attention to this as most parents would -- that is, not very much.  He certainly knew and encouraged his sons' interest in music and Brian's obsession had to be obvious, but what parent keeps close track of the comings and goings of a bunch of kids playing in an informal garage band?  Until they start gigging or smoking dope, it's just another thing that they do that's not that important in the grand adult scheme of things.  The parent's interest in the specifics of the band's activity is usually limited to "turn that down!"  And if they're off practicing at John Maus' house, that tells us Murry DID tell them to turn it down (since the Wilsons had a music room) and that if they were rehearsing elsewhere, that takes it out of the realm of his notice.

The "Labor Day" incident was almost certainly pivotal for Murry, though, in that it marks the point that HE started taking the whole thing seriously, and really, from his perspective, that's all that would matter.  So when the story of the band was told, it makes sense that that event would be ground zero in Murry's telling of the tale.


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: bgas on December 04, 2010, 12:38:01 PM
FYI, the Dennis interview mentioned is with KUGN-FM, in Eugene, Oregon, Fall of '77.  I quote it extensively in my POB/Bambu essay (www.beachboysarchives.com).

Perchance do you have a transcript of the salient part to hand ?  ::)

Ah, but of course!  Just happened to have a CDR that I'd burned of that very interview sitting about a foot away from my computer, right next to my printer, where it's been for probably the past two years now...realizing that today is Dennis' birthday makes it all the more fitting!

INTERVIEWER: When did the Beach Boys actually get together, when did the three of you decide that you wanted to do something, wanted to actually form a band and get away from just singing in the back of your parents' car?

DENNIS: Ohh um, just different things...I was not involved with a couple of the high school projects, y'know...and a matter of fact, I watched them, y'know, and giggled at the audience, y'know...uh, as far as the group goes, I just remember my parents...um...leaving for Europe and left us some food money, an' we took the food money an' went down and bought instruments, and put 'em downstairs in the, where we had a garage that my dad turned into a, like a den; it was a total failure den, until we got the instruments in there, and then it was perfect; a little place to play, and so that's what we did.

Except a couple of things: 
The only pertinent info changed here is substituting "Europe" for "Mexico City". The story about the food money hasn't changed, except,  if you notice, Dennis says BOUGHT, not rented, instruments ( plural) . So: a rented bass, OR,  they bought(maybe)  bass, drums, ?
 If you take the John Maus story as fact, that changes the whole perception of what really transpired, and basically, I Think, throws out the whole Europe/Mexico story. The BBs, using whatever/no name, were rehearsing in this garage and subsequently, recorded Surfin with the Morgans.  If they're rehearsing in the garage, then they already have instruments. 
 Or did they: use the Food money, rent a bass, rehearse and record with the Morgans and THEN further rehearse in the Maus garage after they did the recording, but prior to the acual Candix release and their first known appearances? 
And if they WERE doing all this rehearsing, why were they still so darn bad at playing their instruments,  for months to come?
 So many options to consider... 
It's kinda like trying to figure out which  shopping center parking lots they played in.  Almost all of the people that could shed some light on the situation, are gone 


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: adamghost on December 04, 2010, 12:41:52 PM
"And if they WERE doing all this rehearsing, why were they still so darn bad at playing their instruments,  for months to come?"

Boy, that is no mystery.  You can rehearse a looong time and still suck (in some cases, 20 years).

Six months in the life of a teenage garage band is not that long in terms of acquiring basic competence.


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: Mikie on December 04, 2010, 01:12:59 PM
When I heard that Eugene Dennis interview from 1977, I also thought he'd misplaced the facts and didn't think much of it. This was a little before or after the KOME San Jose interview when he said something odd and I thought his memory was a little goofy. It's not really conclusive, but now I wonder if he was telling it like it was. Just like when he was recounting in the It's OK TV special "My Dad worked at "Air Research" and Friday nights sitting in the back of the car driving home singing harmony - and "Come Down, Come down from your Ivory Tower". His memory was pretty good there.

Anyway, anybody wanna discuss Candix matrix numbers for the "Surfin'" single?  ;D


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: bgas on December 04, 2010, 01:22:36 PM
Anyway, anybody wanna discuss Candix matrix numbers for the "Surfin'" single?  ;D

Isn't that something you really only do with Brad?


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on December 04, 2010, 01:54:03 PM
When I heard that Eugene Dennis interview from 1977, I also thought he'd misplaced the facts and didn't think much of it. This was a little before or after the KOME San Jose interview when he said something odd and I thought his memory was a little goofy. It's not really conclusive, but now I wonder if he was telling it like it was. Just like when he was recounting in the It's OK TV special "My Dad worked at "Air Research" and Friday nights sitting in the back of the car driving home singing harmony - and "Come Down, Come down from your Ivory Tower". His memory was pretty good there.

Anyway, anybody wanna discuss Candix matrix numbers for the "Surfin'" single?  ;D

One thing that's always struck me about the Wilson brothers: considering how devotedly and repeatedly they fried their synapses, they have astonishing memories.


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: Jon Stebbins on December 04, 2010, 02:12:21 PM


The "Labor Day" incident was almost certainly pivotal for Murry, though, in that it marks the point that HE started taking the whole thing seriously, and really, from his perspective, that's all that would matter.  So when the story of the band was told, it makes sense that that event would be ground zero in Murry's telling of the tale.
Right on Adam. I think you've hit on something very logical here.


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: Mikie on December 04, 2010, 03:05:18 PM
Isn't that something you really only do with Brad?

Nah, Brad ain't around anymore.  But there's a few others here who have the Candix 301 and 331 singles.......maybe we can compare notes here.  ;D


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: Carrie Marks on December 04, 2010, 04:51:17 PM
The "Labor Day" incident was almost certainly pivotal for Murry, though, in that it marks the point that HE started taking the whole thing seriously, and really, from his perspective, that's all that would matter.  So when the story of the band was told, it makes sense that that event would be ground zero in Murry's telling of the tale.

I agree with everything you say about how the various guys got together in various configurations prior to officially launching the band, however I do disagree with the last paragraph. I think Murry was a lot more deliberate than that when he came up with the "Labor Day" story to tell the band's genesis.

If that was the story he believed why didn't he tell it that way from the beginning?  He had one story of how the band began from 1962-1964 that included David and not Al. And the from '64 on you start hearing the story told with Al and not David.  His story changes as a matter of convenience.

Even after Al came back and was touring with David, you don't see him in any of the band's promo, he's not credited on the album covers, he was not part of the band's National TV debut and was not invited on the larger venues - such as the Cow Palace and the 2nd  Fred Vail show. It seems odd that Murry would consider Al the original and David his replacement (as he would come to tell the story) and then include David, not Al, on the high profile appearance. 








Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: Carrie Marks on December 04, 2010, 05:24:16 PM
Dorinda Morgan, in Byron Preiss' book recalls "Murry called us up and said 'see if you can do something with him (Brian), Audree & I are going to Mexico City'". Annoyingly, no source notes are provided.

I'm not as keen on my Candix history as I should be, but why would Murry tell Dorinda Morgan that he was going to Mexico?

I thought the 1st he knew about Surfin' was AFTER they got back from Mexico / England and found out the grocery money was spent on instruments.  Was Murry already trying to get Brian a deal with Candix before any instruments were rented / bought and Surfin' written?

I have a vague memory that Murry was allegedly mad when he found out the boys spent the money on gear but then eased up after he heard the potential once he heard them play Surfin'...is that wrong?  Again, it seems odd Murry would be actively seeking a record deal for Brian on his way out the door for Mexico and then be upset he spent the time they were gone pursuing music.  Is there a definitive time line for when Murry began shopping the band?


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: Carrie Marks on December 04, 2010, 05:29:27 PM
If you take the John Maus story as fact, that changes the whole perception of what really transpired, and basically, I Think, throws out the whole Europe/Mexico story. The BBs, using whatever/no name, were rehearsing in this garage and subsequently, recorded Surfin with the Morgans.  If they're rehearsing in the garage, then they already have instruments. 

David has maintained all along that he rehearsed Surfin' with the band prior to them recording it which is why he was so hurt when they recorded it without him.  Even if you take the official story as gospel and the song evolved on Labor Day weekend while the Wilsons were away then John and Gary's recollection, at the very least, shows that the "Beach Boys" between the time the song was written and when it was recorded included both Al AND David, depending on the day.


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: bgas on December 04, 2010, 09:02:08 PM
The "Labor Day" incident was almost certainly pivotal for Murry, though, in that it marks the point that HE started taking the whole thing seriously, and really, from his perspective, that's all that would matter.  So when the story of the band was told, it makes sense that that event would be ground zero in Murry's telling of the tale.

I agree with everything you say about how the various guys got together in various configurations prior to officially launching the band, however I do disagree with the last paragraph. I think Murry was a lot more deliberate than that when he came up with the "Labor Day" story to tell the band's genesis.

If that was the story he believed why didn't he tell it that way from the beginning?  He had one story of how the band began from 1962-1964 that included David and not Al. And the from '64 on you start hearing the story told with Al and not David.  His story changes as a matter of convenience.

Even after Al came back and was touring with David, you don't see him in any of the band's promo, he's not credited on the album covers, he was not part of the band's National TV debut and was not invited on the larger venues - such as the Cow Palace and the 2nd  Fred Vail show. It seems odd that Murry would consider Al the original and David his replacement (as he would come to tell the story) and then include David, not Al, on the high profile appearance. 


What we have is Murry happy with whomever is in the band, as long as it's his sons and "his" band, until Dave goes head to head with Murry. Then, after Dave leaves,  Murry concocts his "new" and forever will be( he hopes) history of the band. It's not a matter of "convenience", but one of " Don't mess with Murry"   That's how I see that playing out.
But to say Al wasn't invited on the larger venues, well that's gonna be hit and miss, I guess. Brian wasn't at the two  September 14th, 1963 Sacramento shows; so it stands to reason it was Carl, Mike, Dennis, Dave and Al. The Cow Palace show ( The Surf Party)on the 28th was DEFINITELY the same 5 just mentioned. I presume the following nights' shows in Seattle ( the 29th) were the same 5, still without Brian. In between the14th and the 28th shows and then until Dave leaves the band, I can't say.
   It's a long time ago, and yet, the story of everything that happened is still changing. It sure would be nice to find out the REAL full story, while the remaining principals are still with us. 
 Here's a shot from after the show on the 28th, showing the 5 w/ Dee Dee Sharp:
(http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww302/bgasnow/BBs-DeeDeeSharp-CowPalace.jpg)
 


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on December 05, 2010, 01:59:34 AM
Dorinda Morgan, in Byron Preiss' book recalls "Murry called us up and said 'see if you can do something with him (Brian), Audree & I are going to Mexico City'". Annoyingly, no source notes are provided.

I'm not as keen on my Candix history as I should be, but why would Murry tell Dorinda Morgan that he was going to Mexico?

Well, being my usual fair self, I have to point out here that some of Dorinda's recollections - e.g. that they initially pressed up "Surfin'" "on our (X) label" - have been shown to be in error.  It's possible she's conflated her memories of the time.


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on December 05, 2010, 02:48:03 AM
Here's a little background on the contact the Wilsons had with the Morgans pre-"Surfin'". Some years ago, I got into contact with Gary Winfrey, and with his recollections, the early history of Alan's association with the band was completely overhauled as he was the first to say that ACJ left for college before The Beach Boys came to pass, as opposed to after, as all the other histories had it. I've cut out the less-relevant parts, but if you want to read the whole thing, it's here - In The Beginning (http://www.esquarterly.com/bellagio/Beginning.html).

"The Islanders came to an inevitable end when Alan & Bob [Barrow] left for college in the fall of 1960 (as did Brian and Keith Lent - Gary had graduated the previous year), but not before Gary & Alan approached someone in the music business to see if the group might take that one step further. "Al and I were over at Brian's house and it was Mrs. Wilson who gave us the idea to contact Hite Morgan. We took an audition tape to Hite's recording studio: the song was "The Wreck Of the Hesperus". It was a poem by Longfellow put to music by us. We thought it sounded terrible on his professional sound equipment. They said they were just getting their studio together and would call if anything comes up." This was, in Gary's opinion, in late August or early September and he & Alan were convinced that they'd just been handed the old 'don't-call-us-we'll-call-you' line... By mid-June [1961], Alan was back in Los Angeles and enrolled at El Camino for a pre-dentistry course: doubtless he knew that Gary was at the college, but was pleasantly surprised when he bumped into Brian again, and not just because he was an old high school buddy. Apparently one of the first things Alan did on his return to California was to resurrect The Islanders with either Gary's brother Don or Keith Lent replacing Bob Barrow… and it seemed that the Morgan's interest was genuine: they did call back. "So they called and said come on down as they had a song for us to record. My brother Don, who I believe was in Carl Wilson's class, was at school during the week, so we asked Keith Lent [who had previously been in one version of Carl & The Passions alongside Brian] to take his place that day. The song was written by Hite's son [Bruce] and was called "Rio Grande"." Gary remembers that it was after this session that Brian was first involved musically: "We were getting nowhere on the record and asked Brian's help. We didn't make much progress and dropped the project. Brian met Hite [again - he had auditioned for Art Laboe at Hite's suggestion four years earlier] and the rest is history." What apparently happened was that, in parallel with the revived Islanders, Alan was helping form a band with Brian - Gary recalls them (Gary, Al, Brian and some unknown) singing together in the Nurses Room at El Camino - his brothers and cousin Mike Love, and when he auditioned for Hite again, this time they, and not The Islanders, accompanied him. Whether or not they played "Rio Grande" or "Sloop John B" - or both - is unclear: what is certain is that when the Morgans asked if they had any original material, Dennis stunned his band mates by announcing that Brian and Mike had written a song about surfing. They hadn't, of course, but this little white lie was soon rectified… and the rest was, indeed, history."

 


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on December 05, 2010, 05:35:56 AM
More nonsense.  ;D

Murry & Audree reportedly went to Mexico City with Barry Haven & his wife who, although British, were living in the US are about to relocate to CA: Haven knew Murry through ABLE, and related the following tale to one Ian Whitcomb in 1963, who included it in his 1983 book Rock Odyssey: A Chronicle of the Sixties. For more info on Whitcomb, check Wikipedia: suffice to say he once opened for The Beach Boys. Comments in italics are mine.

“They kindly arranged to take us to Mexico on a three-day trip (no mention of Labor Day) . . . and they left several hundred dollars for their three boys -- Carl, Brian and Dennis -- to live on. When we got back, they greeted us with some songs they’d written (almost certainly "Surfin'", "Luau" & "Lavender" - he wasn't to know they'd not written the latter pair) and played on instruments they’d bought with the food money. Guitars, bass, drums, you name it. They gave us a miniconcert and it wasn’t bad. The wife and me almost got up and did some twisting to it. . . . Anyway, Murry was first furious when he saw what his boys had bought with the food money and he wasn’t one to spare the rod and spoil the child. But his attitude changed pretty fast after he heard the songs. Oh, they had the teen beat and all that, but also had some pretty melodies and chords that really made you feel like relaxyvooing. So immediately, he went into a huddle with his boys about getting these songs published and recorded. He was quite a nifty songwriter himself, the sort of moon-over-Waikiki variety. I remember going back to see them a few months later – I had to see Murry about some machinery or other – and I arrived to find him administering a real old pep talk to his lads, just like one of those ruddy football coaches they have here. They’re quite a Germanic race in a way, the Yanks. But it gets results. He got them into the studio and onto a record and now, with him managing them, they’re so rich we never see them.”

This - assuming haven is recollecting accurately, and Whitcomb likewise - of course only further muddies the already murky waters. But we don't care: if it was easy, where would the fun be ?  ;D


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: A Million Units In Jan! on December 05, 2010, 06:59:17 AM
More nonsense.  ;D

Murry & Audree reportedly went to Mexico City with Barry Haven & his wife who, although British, were living in the US are about to relocate to CA: Haven knew Murry through ABLE, and related the following tale to one Ian Whitcomb in 1963, who included it in his 1983 book Rock Odyssey: A Chronicle of the Sixties. For more info on Whitcomb, check Wikipedia: suffice to say he once opened for The Beach Boys. Comments in italics are mine.

“They kindly arranged to take us to Mexico on a three-day trip (no mention of Labor Day) . . . and they left several hundred dollars for their three boys -- Carl, Brian and Dennis -- to live on. When we got back, they greeted us with some songs they’d written (almost certainly "Surfin'", "Luau" & "Lavender" - he wasn't to know they'd not written the latter pair) and played on instruments they’d bought with the food money. Guitars, bass, drums, you name it. They gave us a miniconcert and it wasn’t bad. The wife and me almost got up and did some twisting to it. . . . Anyway, Murry was first furious when he saw what his boys had bought with the food money and he wasn’t one to spare the rod and spoil the child. But his attitude changed pretty fast after he heard the songs. Oh, they had the teen beat and all that, but also had some pretty melodies and chords that really made you feel like relaxyvooing. So immediately, he went into a huddle with his boys about getting these songs published and recorded. He was quite a nifty songwriter himself, the sort of moon-over-Waikiki variety. I remember going back to see them a few months later – I had to see Murry about some machinery or other – and I arrived to find him administering a real old pep talk to his lads, just like one of those ruddy football coaches they have here. They’re quite a Germanic race in a way, the Yanks. But it gets results. He got them into the studio and onto a record and now, with him managing them, they’re so rich we never see them.”

This - assuming haven is recollecting accurately, and Whitcomb likewise - of course only further muddies the already murky waters. But we don't care: if it was easy, where would the fun be ?  ;D


Relaxyvooing? They're quite a Germanic race in a way, the Yanks?


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: Carrie Marks on December 05, 2010, 07:47:21 AM
Andrew:  Most interesting...thanks!  So they went to England AND Mexico.....

The instrument claim may also be slightly over-stated considering Carl already had a guitar and Al's mom put up the money for his bass but otherwise, Mr Havens has told the story pretty darn close to how we've come to believe "Labor Day" happened.  However, what went on with the Islanders aside, I think his reporting on Murry's reaction confirms the unlikelihood of Murry calling Dorinda PRIOR to him leaving for Mexico.

Jo Ann and Elmer combined, made approx. $240 a month in 1961, so I'm still not sure why Murry would leave the equivalent of an average month's salary / two mortgage payments for 'food money' for 3 days, though.


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: PongHit on December 05, 2010, 08:21:33 AM
You could just as reasonably ask, why does it matter who wrote "Good Vibrations" ?

THAT I would understand easily.  The Mexico vs. Europe thing is more complicated & subtle...


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: Carrie Marks on December 05, 2010, 08:24:45 AM
Here's a shot from after the show on the 28th, showing the 5 w/ Dee Dee Sharp:
(http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww302/bgasnow/BBs-DeeDeeSharp-CowPalace.jpg)
 


Did you take that photo?  If not, what is the source for the 9/28/63 date?  That date conflicts with my research so I am most interested in sorting that out. 

Also, Jon, Andrew or anyone else...what are Fred Vail's recollections about meeting Brian?  I believed Al was at the 1st show in Sacramento in the spring and Brian was at the 2nd one in September, which was his 1st time meeting Brian.  Is that backwards? 


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: PongHit on December 05, 2010, 08:25:05 AM
Honestly? You have been around this board for awhile, you've scanned page after page of questions that have been posed here, many of which have little or nothing to do with anything of real importance regarding the Beach Boys and their history. You've started threads about how you can turn your iphone into a woody, and where we should place Lets Call The Whole Thing Of on BWRG. But you choose to ask why a thread essential to the fundamental understanding of the very formation and birth of the band we discuss here matters? Whoa man...that's a strange set of priorities.

I'm not suggesting it isn't worthy of discussion.  I'm trying to understand the ramifications.  For example, Jon, I bought your David book (the day it was released, during a trip to LA making a documentary film), & when I read it, I understood how elements of it could change the timeline, etc.  So, similarly, I'm asking: if they went to Europe instead of Mexico, does that somehow indicate, for example, that the band started recording earlier?  Does it, once again, shift the Al vs. David line-up?  Or...  what?


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: Cam Mott on December 05, 2010, 08:33:07 AM
Maybe the two trips happened consecutively, 3 days in Europe followed by 3 days in Mexico? Perhaps all with the same couple, or not.


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on December 05, 2010, 08:45:05 AM
[brain fart]


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: PongHit on December 05, 2010, 08:52:33 AM
Ah, thank you, Andrew.  This is what I was looking for, a clarification of the timeline — I'm eager to see the bottom-line of what this new bit o' info adds to our total understanding.


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on December 05, 2010, 08:53:44 AM
Honestly? You have been around this board for awhile, you've scanned page after page of questions that have been posed here, many of which have little or nothing to do with anything of real importance regarding the Beach Boys and their history. You've started threads about how you can turn your iphone into a woody, and where we should place Lets Call The Whole Thing Of on BWRG. But you choose to ask why a thread essential to the fundamental understanding of the very formation and birth of the band we discuss here matters? Whoa man...that's a strange set of priorities.

I'm not suggesting it isn't worthy of discussion.  I'm trying to understand the ramifications.  For example, Jon, I bought your David book (the day it was released, during a trip to LA making a documentary film), & when I read it, I understood how elements of it could change the timeline, etc.  So, similarly, I'm asking: if they went to Europe instead of Mexico, does that somehow indicate, for example, that the band started recording earlier?  Does it, once again, shift the Al vs. David line-up?  Or...  what?

Can't speak for Jon, but personally, I do this kind of thing because I want it to be set down accurately for future fans, and for general rock history. I do it because it interests me, and because something just doesn't feel right. The ramifications are a better understanding of the early/pre-BB dynamic, which of course influences all that ensued.

And yeah, I do it 'cause it's cool to see my name in a book as a source. I have an ego that requires constant massaging. As Brian would say, it's a trip.  ;D


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on December 05, 2010, 09:01:56 AM
Maybe the two trips happened consecutively, 3 days in Europe followed by 3 days in Mexico? Perhaps all with the same couple, or not.

Unlikely, and even were it so, Jo Ann says the UK trip was just Murry & Audree, which jibes with the Havens being US residents.


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: c-man on December 05, 2010, 09:28:53 AM
I'm sure the cost for renting the bass included a returnable deposit...when Alan and Mike were on the Midnight Special in 1978 (part two of a two-part "special feature" on the BBs...part one being a chat with Carl), Al specifically said that his mom was really worried about something happening and not getting her deposit back when she agreed to rent it for them.  That would make $300 seem more plausible.


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: PongHit on December 05, 2010, 09:31:32 AM
I do this kind of thing because I want it to be set down accurately for future fans, and for general rock history. I do it because it interests me, and because something just doesn't feel right. The ramifications are a better understanding of the early/pre-BB dynamic, which of course influences all that ensued.
And yeah, I do it 'cause it's cool to see my name in a book as a source. I have an ego that requires constant massaging. As Brian would say, it's a trip.  ;D

I hear ya, Andrew.  I'm also a stickler for accuracy.  And I too am a recognized expert in my musical niche, & I enjoy being a source for books, etc., & working with some of the biggest shots in the biz.  So I understand the ego trip as well.  As BBoys fanatic, I reply on people like you, Jon, & others to sift through all the mythology, & feed my need for detailed, true BBoys history, so thanks!  Your little blue book hasn't left my night-table since I bought it.


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: Carrie Marks on December 05, 2010, 09:56:25 AM
Al specifically said that his mom was really worried about something happening and not getting her deposit back when she agreed to rent it for them.  That would make $300 seem more plausible.

I've had conversations with Al about this and I absolutely believe his mother put up the money for the rental gear.  But the Haven's (and Wilson's) say it was Murry's grocery money that went to the gear. So regardless of the amount,  you've still got 2 parents both claiming to have paid for the same instruments. 

Ponghit: the reason this is important (to me anyway) is not because it matters WHERE the Wilson's went, but the fact the story used to tell the early BB history has giant holes and contradictions in it.  The reason's WHY they would not tell the story the way it actually happened is really the underlying motivation for pinning down the exact facts.

Al, like David, was a victim of Murry's creative story-telling.  Bgas says it was 'messing w/ Murry" that got David written out of history, not a matter of 'convenience' but what did Al do to Murry in Feb 1962 that would prompt his name being crossed off the Surfin' AFM sheet w/ future credit given to David and Virginia's investment credited to Murry? There was a history, right from the start, to bend the story to fit whatever angle Murry was going for at the time and the more we delve into the "Labor Day" story, the more we see it was just that, a STORY.


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: Jon Stebbins on December 05, 2010, 10:41:24 AM
My reasons for seeing this Mexico vs Europe thing as very important are in line with Andrew and Carrie. And as stated when you find a leak in the story, something that doesn't hold water, this is often a clue to finding more truth. Think about the fact that we were told for years that Al left the Beach Boys to go to dentistry school on the east coast (truth is he was still in L.A., and lost faith in the Beach Boys because he wanted to be in a folk group, not a rock group). We were told for years that David was kicked out because Brian wanted Al back in (truth is he quit to start his own group). We were told for years Dave was a quick fill in for Al while he toyed with the idea of college (truth is David was involved in the Beach Boys genesis prior to Al being involved, and it was David and not Al who was a 1/5 official member of the band, and Al who was the fill-in for Brian and was paid as a sideman). We were told for years Al and David's tenure's did not overlap, until that Hawaii footage surfaced and people went huh?(truth is there were essentially SIX Beach Boys for much of 1963 including on the creation of classic songs like In My Room and Catch A Wave which have BOTH David and Al on them). For years we were told the Beach Boys didn't play the instruments on their records after the first couple LPs(truth is they played on a majority of the most known tracks in their canon, including Dennis being the drummer on classics like I Get Around, Don't Worry Baby, When I Grow Up, Dance Dance Dance). We were told for years that Brian stopped touring with the Beach Boys in late 1964 (truth is Brian began to sit out tours in early to mid 1963) I could go on. The point is when something doesn't feel right you start poking around, and often you find some surprises that really do mean something. I was floored to be part of the research thrust that discovered a 20% share of the Beach Boys franchise totaling millions of dollars was swindled from a 15 year old in 1963 and withheld from his replacement for a decade. Where did that money go? How does that happen? Why was this mystery not even touched upon in any Beach Boys book until 2007? I think we're just getting at the heart of the truth about the Beach Boys in many ways, and 90% of people who know a little something about the Beach Boys still don't know any of the things I've listed above because the story has been told one way for so long that it has entrenched into the general consciousness. Our job is to reverse that because it is important to the true understanding of America's greatest pop/rock band.


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: PongHit on December 05, 2010, 10:45:22 AM
Bravo.  I especially like this part:

For years we were told the Beach Boys didn't play the instruments on their records after the first couple LPs (truth is they played on a majority of the most known tracks in their canon, including Dennis being the drummer on classics like I Get Around, Don't Worry Baby, When I Grow Up, Dance Dance Dance).


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: guitarfool2002 on December 05, 2010, 11:16:45 AM
I'm very much enjoying this discussion, I just wanted to say thanks for all of the new information to consider. The fact that public relations hype and exaggerations happen all the time isn't surprising but the fact there was so much surrounding this story and that it was told and re-told by nearly every source since the early 60's is kind of surprising. It's fun to set the record straight!

Two issues around the 300 dollars bother me too: First, and I may be wrong with the exact figures but I do have some knowledge of vintage guitars and amps: If a music store in 1961 charged nearly the same amount of US dollars to rent a used stand-up bass as they did for a Fender Stratocaster or a decent Fender amp, fresh from the Fender plant in California, then they were ripping people off. Most music stores I've dealt with consider rentals of guitars and basses to rock musicians a losing proposition, and the rentals of those items at most stores are not top-of-the-line models. For that, you call a place like S.I.R. which deals with high end instruments and professional musicians. Horns, woodwinds, etc - some stores have their own business in dealing with schools, but renting guitars basses and the like is a lose-lose situation for the most part.

300 for a rental acoustic bass in 1961? No way. I'd take that money and buy a P-Bass or Jazz Bass if it were 1961!

And leaving that much money for food for a few days in 1961? Thinking purely about the value of a dollar at that time, it seems WAY too high an amount. If you were a "ten thousand a year man" at that time you were probably a white collar kind of guy. The average salary in America in 1961 was around $5,000 per year. A loaf of bread on average cost 21 cents in 1961. So Murry left them the cash equivalent of buying 1,400 loaves of bread?

300 dollars for teenagers? Even today 300 bucks for a weekend would be enough to buy food, beer, and everything in between. In 1961? That was big money to leave your kids for a few days.


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: Rocker on December 05, 2010, 11:25:05 AM
Regarding the instruments, did they buy or loan that stuff from the food money? And what exactly? Just drums?


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: Mikie on December 05, 2010, 11:27:39 AM
Al (and Virginia) Jardine have stuck to the same story of the rented bass since day one. Why would they make it up?


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: guitarfool2002 on December 05, 2010, 11:31:27 AM
In your opinion, does 300 bucks in 1961 dollar amounts sound like a reasonable sum of money to rent a stand-up bass, in light of some of the comparisons I mentioned?


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on December 05, 2010, 11:32:06 AM
Al (and Virginia) Jardine have stuck to the same story of the rented bass since day one. Why would they make it up?

I believe them - just not the sum involved.


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: guitarfool2002 on December 05, 2010, 11:37:05 AM
The average monthly budget for food, dining in and out, was around 100 for a couple at that time. Average mortgage payment? Around 100 per month. Adding all of that, the 300 dollars for either the bass or the weekend of food for the boys doesn't jive at all with the value of the dollar back then.


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: c-man on December 05, 2010, 11:45:14 AM
In your opinion, does 300 bucks in 1961 dollar amounts sound like a reasonable sum of money to rent a stand-up bass, in light of some of the comparisons I mentioned?

Playing devil's advocate here:  remember that Al has said the $300 was for (or included) a DEPOSIT, not just a couple day's (or week's) rental.  Might that sound more reasonable?  In other words, say $50 to rent the thing and an additional $250 in case it was damaged at a frat party or in case they never got it back (remember also, the customer in this case was not a pro musician, but rather a housemom renting if for her 19-year or so old son).  And, maybe the bass in question was not a beat-up no-name job, but rather a top of the line model akin to what would be used in a symphony orchestra.  Sure, they could've rented a no-name for a lot less, and a pro musician with good credit could've rented the top-of-the-line model for less, but Mrs. Jardine from suburbia and her college-age son posed a bigger risk, and therefore had to pay more for best one they had.  Possibly?


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: c-man on December 05, 2010, 11:49:46 AM
Regarding the instruments, did they buy or loan that stuff from the food money? And what exactly? Just drums?

My guess would be...the food money paid for renting drums (actually probably "drum" singular, meaning just the snare) and maybe a microphone or two, and if so a small P.A. (or maybe just a guitar amp to plug the vocal mics into...crude, but effective).  And the bass was rented with Virginia Jardine's money (whether it be $300 or some smaller amount).


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: Mikie on December 05, 2010, 11:53:49 AM
Not to be sarcastic here, but it's no skin off my butt how much they paid for the bass. Does it really matter? It's kinda splittin' hairs. Al's Mom has been paid back a thousand-fold for the bass. Does it mean that since they could possibly be exaggerating about the 300 bucks, that they're not to believed for other things that they've said, and that their credibility is at stake? Same with how much they spent for the food - geez, could we linger on something else more worthwhile? Like the chronology of events leading up to the Kennedy assassination and when the "Warmth of The Sun" was actually written and exactly where the Beach Boys were at the time?  :)

P.S. Please note smiley emoticon before jumping on my back, K?  Thanks in advance.


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: adamghost on December 05, 2010, 11:57:49 AM
I was just going to say exactly what C-Man said...that I bet the $300 was mostly a deposit on a rental.  Replacement value for a stand up bass was probably considerably higher than for an electric and a lot of stores, particularly smaller ones, would insist on a pretty high deposit, sometimes nearly as much as the thing was worth, to rent it (my band tried to rent gear from a store in 2004 for a tour and were dismayed to find they insisted on deposits to cover the full retail value of everything that left the store).  This would explain why the figure stuck in everybody's heads.  You can envision, again, a scenario where they go to rent the bass at the store, and they can't get it out without a hefty deposit.  They immediately cast about for someone they can get a loan from, and it's Al's mom.  It would also explain why she was willing to part with the money...she was going to get it back in three days.

Count me in as another for whom the food money thing has never made any sense.  When I was in my teens my parents would take off for Europe or South America on a regular basis.  I distinctly recall them going to Ireland for nearly a month and leaving me $100 for food.  This was for a MONTH.  In 1981.  


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: adamghost on December 05, 2010, 12:02:57 PM
Not to be sarcastic here, but it's no skin off my butt how much they paid for the bass. Does it really matter? It's kinda splittin' hairs. Al's Mom has been paid back a thousand-fold for the bass. Does it mean that since they could possibly be exaggerating about the 300 bucks, that they're not to believed for other things that they've said, and that their credibility is at stake? Same with how much they spent for the food - geez, could we linger on something else more worthwhile? Like the chronology of events leading up to the Kennedy assassination and when the "Warmth of The Sun" was actually written and exactly where the Beach Boys were at the time?  :)

P.S. Please note smiley emoticon before jumping on my back, K?  Thanks in advance.

Jon's post is spot on.  Yes, this is minutiae but we live in a world that plays fast and loose with facts on a daily basis.  We need our wonks to keep things in balance, and set the record straight.  Small things have big implications that we don't always see at first.  And anyway, it's fun.


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: Bicyclerider on December 05, 2010, 12:05:24 PM
The 300 clams could have  been left for food AND in case of an emergency - if indeed both parents were out of the country (whether in Europe or Mexico).  What if one of the brothers (most likely Dennis) got in an accident and was taken to the hospital?  You had to pay cold hard cash in those days, there wasn't "indigent care" and universal health care coverage back then.  Of course that doesn't explain why they needed ANOTHER $300 to get the bass, unless the Wilsons weren't going to let Al use that money (they rented other stuff) and if Al wanted in he needed to put up for the bass.


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: guitarfool2002 on December 05, 2010, 12:09:06 PM
In your opinion, does 300 bucks in 1961 dollar amounts sound like a reasonable sum of money to rent a stand-up bass, in light of some of the comparisons I mentioned?

Playing devil's advocate here:  remember that Al has said the $300 was for (or included) a DEPOSIT, not just a couple day's (or week's) rental.  Might that sound more reasonable?  In other words, say $50 to rent the thing and an additional $250 in case it was damaged at a frat party or in case they never got it back (remember also, the customer in this case was not a pro musician, but rather a housemom renting if for her 19-year or so old son).  And, maybe the bass in question was not a beat-up no-name job, but rather a top of the line model akin to what would be used in a symphony orchestra.  Sure, they could've rented a no-name for a lot less, and a pro musician with good credit could've rented the top-of-the-line model for less, but Mrs. Jardine from suburbia and her college-age son posed a bigger risk, and therefore had to pay more for best one they had.  Possibly?

I saw a few ads, from various papers in Sept 1961, where the cost to rent a standard piano was around 15 dollars per month from music stores who rented. So we're reading that an upright bass cost over 3 times what a piano would cost to rent per month? I do agree with the deposit, and how most of these were "rent to own" situations, or all payments made for rent went toward the purchase price if you wanted to own the instrument, but it still seems a bit high. Again 300 dollars was a lot of money to put out like that for a bass.

A that rate the bass might cost more on average than Al's classes at dental school! :-D

It is splitting hairs in a way but it's a fun way to pass the time and avoid work!  ;D


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: adamghost on December 05, 2010, 12:09:20 PM
I think there may be an explanation for the high amount of food money, and Murry's rage, tucked away in an interview with him somewhere, now that I think of it.

I recall reading some interview with Murry where he said (I'm paraphrasing) "we left them an ample amount of money for food and any emergencies." (emphasis mine)

So let's figure that food for the brothers for a weekend is, say, $50, and maybe another $10 to get the car washed or something like that.  But Murry's going to be out of town, it's a weekend (possibly a holiday weekend) so no banks are open and it's long before there are ATMs.  What if the plumbing breaks down or something falls apart around the house (or they need to bail Denny out of jail!).  With Murry's control freak personality it's easy to imagine his thinking here...and he leaves Brian, the responsible one, with the money, along with strict instructions that it's not to be used for anything other than emergencies beyond, say, $60.  But Brian sees an opening and he can't resist.

So Murry gets back, and he sees the responsible Brian's blown the wad (which he probably had earmarked for other bills) on music gear, and he loses it, temporarily.


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: adamghost on December 05, 2010, 12:10:46 PM
...bicyclerider beat me to it.  But I bet that's the answer, right there.  I hadn't even thought of the health care angle.


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: guitarfool2002 on December 05, 2010, 12:14:13 PM
I agree - "emergencies" is the game-changer. But was Murry that naive to think a group of teenage boys would be in any way responsible with that much cash money in their hands? He could have left that "emergency" money with a neighbor or a relative! That is if the amount were, in fact, 300 dollars.


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: guitarfool2002 on December 05, 2010, 12:16:45 PM
What if one of the brothers (most likely Dennis) got in an accident and was taken to the hospital?  You had to pay cold hard cash in those days, there wasn't "indigent care" and universal health care coverage back then.

But even then if you were brought in on a stretcher after an accident they wouldn't ask you to pay first.


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on December 05, 2010, 12:22:20 PM
Not to be sarcastic here, but it's no skin off my butt how much they paid for the bass. Does it really matter? It's kinda splittin' hairs. Al's Mom has been paid back a thousand-fold for the bass. Does it mean that since they could possibly be exaggerating about the 300 bucks, that they're not to believed for other things that they've said, and that their credibility is at stake? Same with how much they spent for the food - geez, could we linger on something else more worthwhile? Like the chronology of events leading up to the Kennedy assassination and when the "Warmth of The Sun" was actually written and exactly where the Beach Boys were at the time?  :)

P.S. Please note smiley emoticon before jumping on my back, K?  Thanks in advance.

Jon's post is spot on.  Yes, this is minutiae but we live in a world that plays fast and loose with facts on a daily basis.  We need our wonks to keep things in balance, and set the record straight.  Small things have big implications that we don't always see at first.  And anyway, it's fun.

I'm a wonk ?

Well, goddam !  ;D


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on December 05, 2010, 12:25:27 PM
I agree - "emergencies" is the game-changer. But was Murry that naive to think a group of teenage boys would be in any way responsible with that much cash money in their hands? He could have left that "emergency" money with a neighbor or a relative! That is if the amount were, in fact, 300 dollars.

$80, $150, $300, $500, $800 - take your pick.  ;D


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: guitarfool2002 on December 05, 2010, 12:27:49 PM
I agree - "emergencies" is the game-changer. But was Murry that naive to think a group of teenage boys would be in any way responsible with that much cash money in their hands? He could have left that "emergency" money with a neighbor or a relative! That is if the amount were, in fact, 300 dollars.

$80, $150, $300, $500, $800 - take your pick.  ;D

300 seems to be the magic number, both with the bass and with Murry's cash, so I'll put my chips on that one! 8)


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on December 05, 2010, 12:28:17 PM
Like the chronology of events leading up to the Kennedy assassination and when the "Warmth of The Sun" was actually written and exactly where the Beach Boys were at the time?  :)

Did that a few years ago, can't recall where - upshot was, they were on tour so the tale of going to the office wasn't kosher. Or even halal, to avoid offending the PC morons.  ;D


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on December 05, 2010, 12:29:33 PM
I agree - "emergencies" is the game-changer. But was Murry that naive to think a group of teenage boys would be in any way responsible with that much cash money in their hands? He could have left that "emergency" money with a neighbor or a relative! That is if the amount were, in fact, 300 dollars.

$80, $150, $300, $500, $800 - take your pick.  ;D

300 seems to be the magic number, both with the bass and with Murry's cash, so I'll put my chips on that one! 8)

Eh... when you've got two different items, and they agree on value like this, my spider senses perk up.  ::)


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: guitarfool2002 on December 05, 2010, 12:36:13 PM
I just wanted to add one more thing, not that it's going to affect the discussion but as a point of interest: It's easy to forget we live in a "pay up front" kind of society today where we usually have pay immediately upon receipt of the goods or the services. In a lot of places in America in the 50's, you were billed, usually every month, for a lot of what you bought, everything from suits at the mens' shop, to your milk or meat deliveries, to your household repair services. If you went to a department store like JC Penney or Sears you probably had an account set up, and the list of items you purchased went to their billing department who would then send you whatever you had on your "tab". Hospitals were the same way - if you went in to be treated you weren't billed on the spot - you were billed later. So actually we are living in much more of a cash-in-hand society today than the Wilsons and Jardines were in 1961.

In today's world it would be Murry handing over his credit card to Brian and telling him "Only buy what you need! This is for emergencies only!".

Any dads out there comfortable with that kind of arrangement?  :-D


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: Mikie on December 05, 2010, 12:53:35 PM
Yes, this is minutiae but we live in a world that plays fast and loose with facts on a daily basis.  We need our wonks to keep things in balance, and set the record straight.  Small things have big implications that we don't always see at first.  And anyway, it's fun.

I understand all that. It's a given. And as Guitarfool so aptly put it, it's a fun way to pass the time and avoid work. I'm just not sure you guys are gonna conclude anything on this. Most of the Wilsons are gone, and there's conflicting memories by other parties who are still alive, understandably because it was almost 50 years ago. Plus, as AGD astutely points out, "$80, $150, $300, $500, $800 - take your pick!"

Hey, did Murry really have a heart attack and die on the toilet?


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: Custom Machine on December 05, 2010, 01:14:02 PM

The band's first bio, written by Murry himself, credits David with having been there from the start...even including him as part of the Surfin' sessions.


Carrie Ann, is the BBs first bio, written by Murry, available for reading somewhere?







Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: adamghost on December 05, 2010, 01:35:14 PM
Yes, this is minutiae but we live in a world that plays fast and loose with facts on a daily basis.  We need our wonks to keep things in balance, and set the record straight.  Small things have big implications that we don't always see at first.  And anyway, it's fun.

I understand all that. It's a given. And as Guitarfool so aptly put it, it's a fun way to pass the time and avoid work. I'm just not sure you guys are gonna conclude anything on this. Most of the Wilsons are gone, and there's conflicting memories by other parties who are still alive, understandably because it was almost 50 years ago. Plus, as AGD astutely points out, "$80, $150, $300, $500, $800 - take your pick!"

Hey, did Murry really have a heart attack and die on the toilet?

I think the fact that multiple people have chimed in with the same hypotheses independently that cover the facts is something.  And it may be that with that hypothesis in hand, we'll get some confirmation.


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: c-man on December 05, 2010, 02:35:20 PM
Like the chronology of events leading up to the Kennedy assassination and when the "Warmth of The Sun" was actually written and exactly where the Beach Boys were at the time?  :)

Did that a few years ago, can't recall where - upshot was, they were on tour so the tale of going to the office wasn't kosher. Or even halal, to avoid offending the PC morons.  ;D

Hmm, now this sounds like the start (or rebirth) of ANOTHER thread, but I took a quick look at Bellagio, and realized a few dates were out of order:
 November   6 - session: I Do [RCA]
  8 - Drag City/Schlock Rod, Part One Jan & Dean single released (Liberty)
14 - Jan & Dean session: Dead Man's Curve  [15]
15 - Wallich's Music City, South Bay Center, Los Angeles CA* [grand opening]
22 - Dick Clark's American Bandstand Celebrity Party ABC TV [w/Frankie Avalon,
        Annette, Jan & Dean, Dick Dale, Wayne Newton, Dick & Dee Dee, Trini
        Lopez, Johnny Mathis, Connie francis, The Challengers & Donna Loren
22 - Memorial Auditorium,  Marysville CA
16 - Jan & Dean session: Dead Man's Curve
17 - Jan & Dean session: Dead Man's Curve
23 - Memorial Auditorium, Sacramento CA [cancelled]

Curioiusly, they cancelled November 23rd's show, but not November 22nd's (JFK was killed around Noon on the 22nd).  Since the gigs concerned were in California, I still think this timeline could fit the conventional story.


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on December 05, 2010, 02:45:23 PM
Like the chronology of events leading up to the Kennedy assassination and when the "Warmth of The Sun" was actually written and exactly where the Beach Boys were at the time?  :)

Did that a few years ago, can't recall where - upshot was, they were on tour so the tale of going to the office wasn't kosher. Or even halal, to avoid offending the PC morons.  ;D

Hmm, now this sounds like the start (or rebirth) of ANOTHER thread, but I took a quick look at Bellagio, and realized a few dates were out of order:
 November   6 - session: I Do [RCA]
  8 - Drag City/Schlock Rod, Part One Jan & Dean single released (Liberty)
14 - Jan & Dean session: Dead Man's Curve  [15]
15 - Wallich's Music City, South Bay Center, Los Angeles CA* [grand opening]
22 - Dick Clark's American Bandstand Celebrity Party ABC TV [w/Frankie Avalon,
        Annette, Jan & Dean, Dick Dale, Wayne Newton, Dick & Dee Dee, Trini
        Lopez, Johnny Mathis, Connie francis, The Challengers & Donna Loren
22 - Memorial Auditorium,  Marysville CA
16 - Jan & Dean session: Dead Man's Curve
17 - Jan & Dean session: Dead Man's Curve
23 - Memorial Auditorium, Sacramento CA [cancelled]

Curioiusly, they cancelled November 23rd's show, but not November 22nd's (JFK was killed around Noon on the 22nd).  Since the gigs concerned were in California, I still think this timeline could fit the conventional story.

Crap - how'd I manage to do that ?  >:(

Thanks for pointing it out.


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: bgas on December 05, 2010, 03:14:38 PM
Like the chronology of events leading up to the Kennedy assassination and when the "Warmth of The Sun" was actually written and exactly where the Beach Boys were at the time?  :)

Did that a few years ago, can't recall where - upshot was, they were on tour so the tale of going to the office wasn't kosher. Or even halal, to avoid offending the PC morons.  ;D

Hmm, now this sounds like the start (or rebirth) of ANOTHER thread, but I took a quick look at Bellagio, and realized a few dates were out of order:
 November   6 - session: I Do [RCA]
  8 - Drag City/Schlock Rod, Part One Jan & Dean single released (Liberty)
14 - Jan & Dean session: Dead Man's Curve  [15]
15 - Wallich's Music City, South Bay Center, Los Angeles CA* [grand opening]
22 - Dick Clark's American Bandstand Celebrity Party ABC TV [w/Frankie Avalon,
        Annette, Jan & Dean, Dick Dale, Wayne Newton, Dick & Dee Dee, Trini
        Lopez, Johnny Mathis, Connie francis, The Challengers & Donna Loren
22 - Memorial Auditorium,  Marysville CA
16 - Jan & Dean session: Dead Man's Curve
17 - Jan & Dean session: Dead Man's Curve
23 - Memorial Auditorium, Sacramento CA [cancelled]

Curioiusly, they cancelled November 23rd's show, but not November 22nd's (JFK was killed around Noon on the 22nd).  Since the gigs concerned were in California, I still think this timeline could fit the conventional story.

Crap - how'd I manage to do that ?  >:(

Thanks for pointing it out.

At least you fixed it quick! 
I was on that page, by the way. Looking at the ABC party.  weird how those dates moved right before my eyes


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on December 05, 2010, 03:20:23 PM
The joy of having a simple, idiot-proof website-making widget: it might not look flash, but you can change stuff real fast. 'Course, being an idiot in these matters helps.


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: bgas on December 05, 2010, 03:39:57 PM
Let's muddy the waters some more:  An interview  w/Carl,1982:
>>In the fall of 1961, my dad and mom went down to Mexico City on a business trip. They left us with $80 for food, spending money and emergencies. As soon as they left, we all got into Brian's car and went down to this music store on Hawthorne Avenue and rented some instruments. Alan's mom rented us a big acoustic bass, an amplifier, a couple guitars. I already had a guitar, a Kay that my dad had got me in Los Angeles. Alan had wanted to start a folk group, so he had been in touch with my dad's publisher, Hite and Dorinda Morgan. So we took our rented instruments down to the Morgans' home studio where they made their demos. In one afternoon, we recorded four songs: a song by the Morgans' son Bruce, one of Alan's folk numbers, one of Brian's Four Freshmen tunes and a song that Brian and Mike had made up called "Surfin'." I played guitar, Alan played upright bass, and Brian played snare drum with a pencil. In fact, he took his shirt off and put it over the drum because it was too loud. Mike was on one microphone and everyone else was on another mic. We sounded so shitty at first; we were so shaky and lame. After all, I was just 14 and a sophomore in high school << 

http://www.guitar.com/articles/fun-fun-fun-carl-wilsons-life-beach-boy



Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: Mikie on December 05, 2010, 03:53:50 PM
In the fall of 1961, my dad and mom went down to Mexico City on a business trip. They left us with $80 for food, spending money and emergencies. As soon as they left, we all got into Brian's car and went down to this music store on Hawthorne Avenue and rented some instruments. Alan's mom rented us a big acoustic bass, an amplifier, a couple guitars.

If this is true, Carl had a good memory in '82. Again, the Mexico City business trip, 80 bucks for food, and Al's Mom footing 300 bucks for an acoustic bass, an amp, and a couple of guitars. That all seems to fit.


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: Mikie on December 05, 2010, 04:04:45 PM
So we took our rented instruments down to the Morgans' home studio where they made their demos. In one afternoon, we recorded four songs.

The story changes a little bit here, or is a little out of sequence. They took the instruments and recorded four songs. This is different than taking the instruments back to the Wilson's and practicing and playing three songs, then when Murry & Audree come home, the guys play the songs for them and Murry loves it. They didn't record the song demos at Hite Morgan's studio without Murry knowing about it or being in attendance, did they? Carl made it sound like they did this when the parents were in Mexico City. And all in one long weekend? Something seems out of sequence here, or Carl's jumping forward a little bit. Or maybe not....


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: Carrie Marks on December 05, 2010, 04:09:16 PM
Circus Magaizine (10/26/76 ) Surfer Boy: The Dennis Wilson Interview by SCott Cohen

<<My parents went to Europe and left us each 100 dollars for food and I bought the worst set of drums you could possibly buy. My Mom had to beg the guys to let me play. I couldn't even play the drums right-Brian had to show me how on that song.>>


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: guitarfool2002 on December 05, 2010, 04:18:30 PM
Well this just keeps getting more interesting by the hour!  :)

300 bucks for a full compliment of instruments and amps - that *does* make a little more sense but it's still a ton of money in those days.

Dennis is on the record with his version, Carl is on record with his, how about Brian?

Regarding Dennis' version - So he did buy a poor-quality set of drums, but was he that bad of a time-keeping drummer at that time that Brian had to tap a pencil on a can instead? Yet Dennis says Brian taught him the beat, suggesting he played it.

?


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: guitarfool2002 on December 05, 2010, 04:29:47 PM
Audree Wilson, Rolling Stone 11/4/76:

Q: So when did your sons start to record?

A: My husband was in the machinery business, big lathes from England, and the people from whom he imported them were here to visit us. And we took them to Mexico City. When we left, the refrigerator was completely stocked and we gave the boys enough money to buy whatever else they needed. We came back and here they had gone out and rented a bass, a big standup, as tall as Al for sure, and drums and a microphone. They had used every bit of their food money. And they said "We want to play something for you." They were very excited about it, and I thought the song was darling - never dreaming anything would happen.

Q: And that song was Surfin?

A: Right



Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on December 06, 2010, 01:04:28 AM
Audree Wilson, Rolling Stone 11/4/76:

Q: So when did your sons start to record?

A: My husband was in the machinery business, big lathes from England, and the people from whom he imported them were here to visit us. And we took them to Mexico City. When we left, the refrigerator was completely stocked and we gave the boys enough money to buy whatever else they needed. We came back and here they had gone out and rented a bass, a big standup, as tall as Al for sure, and drums and a microphone. They had used every bit of their food money. And they said "We want to play something for you." They were very excited about it, and I thought the song was darling - never dreaming anything would happen.

Q: And that song was Surfin?

A: Right



Interesting, as Barry Haven & his wife were then living in the US and about to move to California. Also, Denny's recollection suggests that Audree knew about 'the band' before the trip.

Dennis is on the record with his version, Carl is on record with his, how about Brian?

OK... the record, such as it is, is Brian's 1991 pseudobiography, so with that colossal caveat:

"My folks were going to Mexico City for a three day weekend with one of my dad's business associates from England... the refrigerator was stocked, and my dad slipped me some extra cash, $150, in case we ran low on food... With Al adding another $300, a loan from his mom, we rented a stand-up bass, a drum set, an electric guitar (why ?), amps and a couple of microphones."


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on December 06, 2010, 02:23:55 AM
Granted "Lavender" had already been released by The Calvanes, but unless Brian chose that to cover by chance, the assumption must be that it was given to the band to cover after the initial audition.

Annnnnnnnnddd... that's what happens when you don't stick to the rules. Because someone who's research abilities I rate highly stated that The Calvanes had released "Lavender", I took it as read. Wrong: they recorded it, but Deck - Hite Morgan's label - never released it, so that proves to my satisfaction that the Morgans gave it to the band (along with "Luau") to rehearse with "Surfin'". No way Brian heard it anywhere else.


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: Carrie Marks on December 06, 2010, 03:48:29 AM
Granted "Lavender" had already been released by The Calvanes, but unless Brian chose that to cover by chance, the assumption must be that it was given to the band to cover after the initial audition.

Annnnnnnnnddd... that's what happens when you don't stick to the rules. Because someone who's research abilities I rate highly stated that The Calvanes had released "Lavender", I took it as read. Wrong: they recorded it, but Deck - Hite Morgan's label - never released it, so that proves to my satisfaction that the Morgans gave it to the band (along with "Luau") to rehearse with "Surfin'". No way Brian heard it anywhere else.

Crediting me for the wrong stuff now, Andrew? Thanks!  ;D


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on December 06, 2010, 04:31:47 AM
Granted "Lavender" had already been released by The Calvanes, but unless Brian chose that to cover by chance, the assumption must be that it was given to the band to cover after the initial audition.

Annnnnnnnnddd... that's what happens when you don't stick to the rules. Because someone who's research abilities I rate highly stated that The Calvanes had released "Lavender", I took it as read. Wrong: they recorded it, but Deck - Hite Morgan's label - never released it, so that proves to my satisfaction that the Morgans gave it to the band (along with "Luau") to rehearse with "Surfin'". No way Brian heard it anywhere else.

Crediting me for the wrong stuff now, Andrew? Thanks!  ;D

Dammit. I seem to be doing things wrong that a) can't be done and b) I don't recall doing. Maybe I should be a politician...

Carrie is of course entirely correct. The initial error was mine.

Of course, that's 'initial error' as in 'deciding to get mixed up with The Beach Boys in the first place'.  ;D



Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: Zander on December 06, 2010, 05:26:27 AM
Audree Wilson, Rolling Stone 11/4/76:

Q: So when did your sons start to record?

A: My husband was in the machinery business, big lathes from England, and the people from whom he imported them were here to visit us. And we took them to Mexico City. When we left, the refrigerator was completely stocked and we gave the boys enough money to buy whatever else they needed. We came back and here they had gone out and rented a bass, a big standup, as tall as Al for sure, and drums and a microphone. They had used every bit of their food money. And they said "We want to play something for you." They were very excited about it, and I thought the song was darling - never dreaming anything would happen.

Q: And that song was Surfin?

A: Right



Interesting, as Barry Haven & his wife were then living in the US and about to move to California. Also, Denny's recollection suggests that Audree knew about 'the band' before the trip.

Dennis is on the record with his version, Carl is on record with his, how about Brian?

OK... the record, such as it is, is Brian's 1991 pseudobiography, so with that colossal caveat:

"My folks were going to Mexico City for a three day weekend with one of my dad's business associates from England... the refrigerator was stocked, and my dad slipped me some extra cash, $150, in case we ran low on food... With Al adding another $300, a loan from his mom, we rented a stand-up bass, a drum set, an electric guitar (why ?), amps and a couple of microphones."

Here's Brian's own version of events from the Imagination DVD

"The band started back in October 1961, when my parents left the country and $100 for the food money and they went to Mexico for 3 days and whilst they were there we got together and went to a music store and rented a bass, guitar and drums and brought them back to the house and we wrote a song the first day we were together then my Dad got back and said "What did ya spend the money on?". We said "instruments" and he said "What did you do that for?" and we played the songfor him and he cheered up"


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on December 06, 2010, 06:01:48 AM
Here's Brian's own version of events from the Imagination DVD

"The band started back in October 1961, when my parents left the country and $100 for the food money and they went to Mexico for 3 days and whilst they were there we got together and went to a music store and rented a bass, guitar and drums and brought them back to the house and we wrote a song the first day we were together then my Dad got back and said "What did ya spend the money on?". We said "instruments" and he said "What did you do that for?" and we played the song for him and he cheered up"

Swiss cheese.  ;D


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: Zander on December 06, 2010, 06:43:29 AM
Here's Brian's own version of events from the Imagination DVD

"The band started back in October 1961, when my parents left the country and $100 for the food money and they went to Mexico for 3 days and whilst they were there we got together and went to a music store and rented a bass, guitar and drums and brought them back to the house and we wrote a song the first day we were together then my Dad got back and said "What did ya spend the money on?". We said "instruments" and he said "What did you do that for?" and we played the song for him and he cheered up"

Swiss cheese.  ;D


A good reference point for this question maybe  Alan Boyd - he will have arranged all the interviews for Endless Harmony where Al, Brian & Carl discuss the formation fo the group. Maybe there was something in the outtakes that may enlighten us all? According to Carl "We had a big party and lotta people showed - I don't how they knew to come but there was a lotta people there". Was this while Murry and Audree were away in Mexico / England? Who attended?


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on December 06, 2010, 06:46:59 AM
OK, thinking out loud here, and on the fly too.

Let's start with a 100% established, concrete date - Saturday September 15th 1961, when Brian, Carl, Dennis, Mike & Alan recorded demos of "Surfin'", "Luau" & "Lavender" in Hite Morgan's home studio.

Bearing in mind that the Morgans had known that Brian & co. were working up some new material to play them for some time (not to mention had also given them two songs to perform), that is since the initial Pendletons audition, and were eager to hear it, I find it odd that the guys waited nearly two weeks after the alleged Labor Day rehearsal weekend to get back to them. Which inclines me to place the rehearsal weekend a week later, September 8th/9th: assuming the guys were back to school/college, the following weekend would be the first time they were all free. So, in my mind anyway, goodbye Labor Day myth - been nice knowing ya, I'll call sometime.

Which of course also impacts on the timing of said first Pendletons audition for the Morgans (not that we have a firm date for it anyway - a mere detail). Now, recalling Murry's comment to Dorinda that he & Audree were off to Mexico City and could they 'do something' with Brian, maybe the audition at which Dennis told the Morgans that Brian & Mike had written a song about surfing (to the considerable surprise of Brian & Mike) did take place over the Labor Day weekend.

All the preceding naturally suggests that Murry & Audree were absent for two consecutive weekends, in Mexico City and, according to Jo Ann, England, and yes, that's something of a problem. I'm wondering if maybe Jo Ann either misheard or misunderstood that Murry & Audree were going away with their English friends as M&A were going to England... and if it wasn't for Dennis stating more than once that his folks went to Europe, I'd probably settle for that. But however deficient Dennis' geographical knowledge might have been, I doubt even he'd confuse Central America with Europe. Plus, as previously stated, the Marks clan has excellent recall.

Hm.  Think I've just reasoned myself into a corner. Anyone got a fresh can of bright ideas ? 'Cause I'm clean out.  ;D



Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: guitarfool2002 on December 06, 2010, 07:09:21 AM
I just wanted to add something about the Morgans in relation to scheduling:

Were the Morgans running a studio out of their house which could be booked by any musicians and paid by the hour or by the day, or was it a demo studio which was there primarily so they could demo songs for their publishing company? The description is "home studio" which is vague. Because if it were a commercial studio available to book, that might explain why there was the time in between the boys pulling their act together and actually getting to play and/or demo the song.

And it might also be a bit of irony for Brian considering his apparent major problems in booking studio time during Smile, which led him to his own home studio!  :)


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on December 06, 2010, 07:14:22 AM
I just wanted to add something about the Morgans in relation to scheduling:

Were the Morgans running a studio out of their house which could be booked by any musicians and paid by the hour or by the day, or was it a demo studio which was there primarily so they could demo songs for their publishing company? The description is "home studio" which is vague. Because if it were a commercial studio available to book, that might explain why there was the time in between the boys pulling their act together and actually getting to play and/or demo the song.

And it might also be a bit of irony for Brian considering his apparent major problems in booking studio time during Smile, which led him to his own home studio!  :)

The home studio was in their front room - they had a professional Ampex recorder, but I gather it was only used for demo purposes for their own roster of artists (remember,they ran the Deck Records label) as the room itself wasn't soundproofed. For their master recordings, they used professional studios like World-Pacific (also frequently referred to as Keen Studio)


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: Zander on December 06, 2010, 07:37:23 AM
Quoted from the Nearest Faraway Place (Pages 140-141)

"They drove to Wallichs' Music City in Hollywood and picked up...

Carbon Microphones
Guitars
Drums
Amplifiers
A Saxophone (for Carl) - he's taken lessons from Fred Morgan (Hawthorne High School Music Teacher)
A stand up bass for Al

The $150 dollars they set aside for rental didn't cover the fee so Viriginia Jardine agreed to cover the rest of the fee, arriving in time to sign the guarantors slip.  ;D

I'd suggest reading those pages as they are most informative...


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on December 06, 2010, 07:50:28 AM
Quoted from the Nearest Faraway Place (Pages 140-141)

"They drove to Wallichs' Music City in Hollywood and picked up...

Carbon Microphones
Guitars
Drums
Amplifiers
A Saxophone (for Carl) - he's taken lessons from Fred Morgan (Hawthorne High School Music Teacher)
A stand up bass for Al

The $150 dollars they set aside for rental didn't cover the fee so Viriginia Jardine agreed to cover the rest of the fee, arriving in time to sign the guarantors slip.  ;D

I'd suggest reading those pages as they are most informative...

Those items I've highlighted - sorry, they don't fly. Carl had his own guitar, and if he was going to play that - which he did - why rent a totally different instrument that doesn't even show on the tracks they eventually recorded (not that it was needed anyway, which was as well as he wasn't very good at it) ?

Also, with Alan's mom's contribution, the rental totals $450 - still excessive.


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: Zander on December 06, 2010, 07:53:05 AM
Quoted from Heroes & Villains (Page 55)

The two couples (Murry & Audree, Barry Haven & his wife) walked in the door to find the den full of equipment including amplifiers and microphones. "We saw all this stuff" Audree said "They had used all of the grocery money. They had borrowed some from Mike love (we'll assume she made a mistake there) and they rented the mikes and the bass. I'm not sure about the drums - I think they bought them"


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: Zander on December 06, 2010, 07:56:33 AM
Quoted from the Nearest Faraway Place (Pages 140-141)

"They drove to Wallichs' Music City in Hollywood and picked up...

Carbon Microphones
Guitars
Drums
Amplifiers
A Saxophone (for Carl) - he's taken lessons from Fred Morgan (Hawthorne High School Music Teacher)
A stand up bass for Al

The $150 dollars they set aside for rental didn't cover the fee so Viriginia Jardine agreed to cover the rest of the fee, arriving in time to sign the guarantors slip.  ;D

I'd suggest reading those pages as they are most informative...

Those items I've highlighted - sorry, they don't fly. Carl had his own guitar, and if he was going to play that - which he did - why rent a totally different instrument that doesn't even show on the tracks they eventually recorded (not that it was needed anyway, which was as well as he wasn't very good at it) ?

Also, with Alan's mom's contribution, the rental totals $450 - still excessive.

Would it be possible to say that Al's Mum made the difference up to the magic figure of $300? Maybe that's where that figure comes from? Especially if drums were purchased. Also both Brian and Carl have mentioned the rental of a guitar/s,...


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: The Shift on December 06, 2010, 08:14:29 AM
... however deficient Dennis' geographical knowledge might have been, I doubt even he'd confuse Central America with Europe.

Don't forget that the US has only just recently ousted a president who thought you coul ddrive between the UK and the USA!   :)


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: Carrie Marks on December 06, 2010, 08:42:49 AM
Maybe I should be a politician...

Not with the level of logic & reason you've been displaying most recently!  ;D


Hm.  Think I've just reasoned myself into a corner. Anyone got a fresh can of bright ideas ? 'Cause I'm clean out.  ;D

If you factor in David, John Maus and Gary Leed's memories, you have another configuration of the band playing Surfin' together before the Candix session. David says Surfin' / the Beach Boys didn't come down and strike the guys with a lightening bolt one day...it was a gradual process that evolved over months (maybe weeks).  PERHAPS, Surfin' was conceived during a trip to England and given birth to during a trip to Mexico?  

Maybe the Wilson's went to England sometime in the early summer (prior to Labor Day), at which point the Boys spent the bulk of the time (and money) in the empty house playing music together.  David was there due to proximity, but was in and out, and Mike (and probably Al) spend time there depending on work schedules. When the Wilson's come home, the Boys start rehearsing at Johnny's.  And THEN, late in the summer,  the Wilson go away for a shorter trip to Mexico in which the Boys take advantage of food money / Virginia's good nature and take the next step in an attempt to record.  Upon return and the realization the Boys are onto something, they finally win Murry over and he, from that point on, works tirelessly until his Boys are a success.

There's no question SOMETHING happened while the parents were away SOMEWHERE, and the result of that happening ultimately led to Surfin'.  Beyond that, it gets real fuzzy.

The reason, I believe Al's version of the story is 1) its the most consistent and 2) he wasn't there as often as the others being both new to the scene and not family or from the neighborhood...so he has fewer instances of getting together to cloud his memory.  

You don't start seeing 'swiss cheese' in the story until you put the Wilson's stories up against each other.  When you factor in the fact the "Labor Day" story only becomes the starting point for the band after David leaves...it would make sense that the story would need to be retro-fitted somewhat to allow for everyone to get on the same page with a consistent story.  If you were to have a new version that paints Al as the original, going with HIS version of what happened would make sense...the only problem being Murry wasn't keen on giving Virginia the role of parent who go the whole thing started - so he takes her credit by saying his extraordinarily high 3-day grocery money was what funded the endeavour. Dennis probably forgot they agreed on the Mexico City trip and accidentally let it slip the Wilson's were in England when Surfin' INITIALLY came about.

Mostly speculation of course, but that version passes my rather acute BS filter, at least.


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: guitarfool2002 on December 06, 2010, 08:55:28 AM
The only reason I could see them wanting to rent a guitar is to get a better quality model, or let's say Carl had a Kay guitar as he mentioned, the Kay being a bit of a lesser quality beater guitar, and he wanted something like a Fender Strat but they couldn't afford to buy it. So they're renting this stuff, why not get a nice guitar too? An indulgence? If we're thinking practical, it wouldn't make sense to rent a guitar if Carl had one, but a chance to test-drive something nicer than a Kay? Possible.

The part about renting a sax for Carl doesn't fit too well if he and David were already taking guitar lessons.

The part about renting or buying drums doesn't quite fit either, considering Brian is hitting a metal can with a pencil on the recording(s)...if they had the drums, why not use a snare at least?


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: Zander on December 06, 2010, 09:04:15 AM
Carrie, one of Murry's versions of the story is (Quoted: Tom Nolan - Tales of Hawthorne (1971) article, see the Back to the Beach Book)...

"It was early 1961 when Mike Love and Al Jardine were coming over to the house and Brian was teaching them songs......So eight months before the record of Surfin'  on 8th December 1961 is when the Beach Boys really started" - That would be May 1961.

So Murry was even avoiding the Virginia Jardine credit by months in 1971, but not really taking the credit for himself but avoiding any reference of David.


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on December 06, 2010, 09:04:46 AM
Quoted from Heroes & Villains (Page 55)

The two couples (Murry & Audree, Barry Haven & his wife) walked in the door to find the den full of equipment including amplifiers and microphones. "We saw all this stuff" Audree said "They had used all of the grocery money. They had borrowed some from Mike love (we'll assume she made a mistake there) and they rented the mikes and the bass. I'm not sure about the drums - I think they bought them"

Um. OK, if they bought the drums, even just a snare... why didn't they take them along to the demo session ?


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: Zander on December 06, 2010, 09:09:38 AM
Quoted from Heroes & Villains (Page 55)

The two couples (Murry & Audree, Barry Haven & his wife) walked in the door to find the den full of equipment including amplifiers and microphones. "We saw all this stuff" Audree said "They had used all of the grocery money. They had borrowed some from Mike love (we'll assume she made a mistake there) and they rented the mikes and the bass. I'm not sure about the drums - I think they bought them"

Um. OK, if they bought the drums, even just a snare... why didn't they take them along to the demo session ?

Who could play them? There's a difference between hitting a snare with an index finger and playing a full kit. Wouldn't Denny have to learn to play first? Audree pestered the boys have Denny in the group but as he coudn't play anything  (as Al stated in Endless Harmony) he by default became the drummer. All the others could so  maybe he need time to play catch up for whiih he would need a full kit


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on December 06, 2010, 09:11:07 AM
David says Surfin' / the Beach Boys didn't come down and strike the guys with a lightening bolt one day...it was a gradual process that evolved over months (maybe weeks).  

Very fair point, and one that jibes with what Fred Morgan said about giving Brian an F for the senior year music project in Hawthorne High - he said instead of handing in the required sonata, Brian submitted something that became "Surfin'". That would be, what, spring 1961 ?


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on December 06, 2010, 09:12:47 AM
Quoted from Heroes & Villains (Page 55)

The two couples (Murry & Audree, Barry Haven & his wife) walked in the door to find the den full of equipment including amplifiers and microphones. "We saw all this stuff" Audree said "They had used all of the grocery money. They had borrowed some from Mike love (we'll assume she made a mistake there) and they rented the mikes and the bass. I'm not sure about the drums - I think they bought them"

Um. OK, if they bought the drums, even just a snare... why didn't they take them along to the demo session ?

Who could play them? There's a difference between hitting a snare with an index finger and playing a full kit. Wouldn't Denny have to learn to play first? Audree pestered the boys have Denny in the group but as he coudn't play anything  (as Al stated in Endless Harmony) he by default became the drummer.

I recall the Morgans saying that Brian brought along an outside drummer to the demo session, but he was paid off because he was too flashy.


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: Jon Stebbins on December 06, 2010, 09:29:49 AM

Here's Brian's own version of events from the Imagination DVD

"The band started back in October 1961, when my parents left the country and $100 for the food money and they went to Mexico for 3 days and whilst they were there we got together and went to a music store and rented a bass, guitar and drums and brought them back to the house and we wrote a song the first day we were together then my Dad got back and said "What did ya spend the money on?". We said "instruments" and he said "What did you do that for?" and we played the songfor him and he cheered up"
No way Brian ever uttered the word "whilst".


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: guitarfool2002 on December 06, 2010, 09:33:24 AM
The part about renting or buying drums doesn't quite fit either, considering Brian is hitting a metal can with a pencil on the recording(s)...if they had the drums, why not use a snare at least?

Again making the point that a real snare drum, since they had just bought and/or rented a kit, would be the choice to record a song rather than a pencil on a can. And according to one of the accounts pasted in this thread, they had to muffle the can with something...at that point why not just get the snare they had paid for?

One other point to consider - if they rented a stand-up bass, I think that's leaning the sound toward the folk music Al was a big champion of at that time. And in that style, at that time, there were hardly any folk groups or popular folk records which featured a full drum kit. Just thinking out loud.


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: guitarfool2002 on December 06, 2010, 09:34:56 AM
Can anyone spot Carl Wilson carrying a saxophone out of the store? ;D

(http://www.radiocityhollywood.com/wp-content/uploads/sidebar_pictures/wallich_s.jpg)


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: Zander on December 06, 2010, 09:39:20 AM

Here's Brian's own version of events from the Imagination DVD

"The band started back in October 1961, when my parents left the country and $100 for the food money and they went to Mexico for 3 days and whilst they were there we got together and went to a music store and rented a bass, guitar and drums and brought them back to the house and we wrote a song the first day we were together then my Dad got back and said "What did ya spend the money on?". We said "instruments" and he said "What did you do that for?" and we played the songfor him and he cheered up"
No way Brian ever uttered the word "whilst".

Sorry "while", I added the "st"  :p Does that change the whole story Jon?  ;D For anyone who wants to listen to that story go to around 31 mins into the DVD


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on December 06, 2010, 09:55:54 AM
The part about renting or buying drums doesn't quite fit either, considering Brian is hitting a metal can with a pencil on the recording(s)...if they had the drums, why not use a snare at least?

Again making the point that a real snare drum, since they had just bought and/or rented a kit, would be the choice to record a song rather than a pencil on a can. And according to one of the accounts pasted in this thread, they had to muffle the can with something...at that point why not just get the snare they had paid for?

One other point to consider - if they rented a stand-up bass, I think that's leaning the sound toward the folk music Al was a big champion of at that time. And in that style, at that time, there were hardly any folk groups or popular folk records which featured a full drum kit. Just thinking out loud.

The trashcan thing is another BB myth - it was a snare drum on the master. On the demo, however... no percussion at all: one acoustic guitar, five voices.


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: Carrie Marks on December 06, 2010, 10:42:25 AM
Can anyone spot Carl Wilson carrying a saxophone out of the store? ;D

(http://www.radiocityhollywood.com/wp-content/uploads/sidebar_pictures/wallich_s.jpg)


In that Carl Wilson quote he says they went to the music store on Hawthorne 'Avenue' (which must be a transcribers error) Hogan's House of Music was the store on Hawthorne Blvd.  So I wonder if the rental happened at Wallachs or Hogan's?


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on December 06, 2010, 10:45:24 AM
Can anyone spot Carl Wilson carrying a saxophone out of the store? ;D

(http://www.radiocityhollywood.com/wp-content/uploads/sidebar_pictures/wallich_s.jpg)

... and right next door is one of the many labels in LA who turned Murry down when he was hawking the 1962 demo tape around.  :)


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: shelter on December 06, 2010, 01:27:59 PM
I agree - "emergencies" is the game-changer. But was Murry that naive to think a group of teenage boys would be in any way responsible with that much cash money in their hands? He could have left that "emergency" money with a neighbor or a relative! That is if the amount were, in fact, 300 dollars.

It doesn't necessarily have to be that Murry handed them that specific sum. Maybe $300 just happened to be the amount of cash he had in the house, and that he told his sons where they could find it in case of emergency.


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: joe_blow on December 06, 2010, 08:31:24 PM

Here's Brian's own version of events from the Imagination DVD

"The band started back in October 1961, when my parents left the country and $100 for the food money and they went to Mexico for 3 days and whilst they were there we got together and went to a music store and rented a bass, guitar and drums and brought them back to the house and we wrote a song the first day we were together then my Dad got back and said "What did ya spend the money on?". We said "instruments" and he said "What did you do that for?" and we played the songfor him and he cheered up"
No way Brian ever uttered the word "whilst".
Show me that river, take me across
Wash all my troubles away
Whilst that lucky old sun's got nothin' to do
But roll around heaven all day

 :)


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: joe_blow on December 06, 2010, 08:34:46 PM


A good reference point for this question maybe  Alan Boyd - he will have arranged all the interviews for Endless Harmony where Al, Brian & Carl discuss the formation fo the group. Maybe there was something in the outtakes that may enlighten us all? According to Carl "We had a big party and lotta people showed - I don't how they knew to come but there was a lotta people there". Was this while Murry and Audree were away in Mexico / England? Who attended?
[/quote]

Was the Carl interview footage used in Endless Harmony not from the same interviews used for Stars and Stripes? Also where in this story does the part about the party they held and the police coming come into place?


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: Zander on December 07, 2010, 12:56:14 AM

Here's Brian's own version of events from the Imagination DVD

"The band started back in October 1961, when my parents left the country and $100 for the food money and they went to Mexico for 3 days and whilst they were there we got together and went to a music store and rented a bass, guitar and drums and brought them back to the house and we wrote a song the first day we were together then my Dad got back and said "What did ya spend the money on?". We said "instruments" and he said "What did you do that for?" and we played the songfor him and he cheered up"
No way Brian ever uttered the word "whilst".
Show me that river, take me across
Wash all my troubles away
Whilst that lucky old sun's got nothin' to do
But roll around heaven all day

 :)

Ha ha! Love it!  :smokin


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: Zander on December 07, 2010, 01:16:27 AM


A good reference point for this question maybe  Alan Boyd - he will have arranged all the interviews for Endless Harmony where Al, Brian & Carl discuss the formation fo the group. Maybe there was something in the outtakes that may enlighten us all? According to Carl "We had a big party and lotta people showed - I don't how they knew to come but there was a lotta people there". Was this while Murry and Audree were away in Mexico / England? Who attended?

Was the Carl interview footage used in Endless Harmony not from the same interviews used for Stars and Stripes? Also where in this story does the part about the party they held and the police coming come into place?
[/quote]

No, I think it's fresh footage but I'd have to check. But my point exactly, when the hell was the party that took place and who attended? If the police showed up as Carl says, there'll be a log with LAPD surely? Hey presto - you've then got a date to work around.  ::)

Another point too, David Marks comments in the BBC Real Beach Boy Documentary - "Dennis didn't have any drum lessons, the drums just showed up in the music room one day and "Dennis - you're the drummer" Note, David doesn't say a only a snare drum turned up (and neither does Brian / Audree / Carl etc).

In the same programme David also says that a "hollow body electro-acoustic" was played unplugged on the recording of "Surfin", would that be Carl's Kay branded guitar or the rental one? Also, seems strange to rent amplifiers to practise then not use them for the recording of "Surfin'"....


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on December 07, 2010, 01:52:03 AM
OK. I've thought about this. Here's my gameplan.

1 - buy lottery ticket.

2 - win jackpot

3 - fly to LA

4 - spend many months going through the LADP records for Hawthorne for August/September 1961, the Capitol Records archives 1962-1970, the Local 47 filing cabinets for 1961-1970,  the records of United Western, the AFTRA vaults and... oh, any other relevant archive I can think of.

5 - write definitive chronology.

Anything I've missed ? Any major holes ?  ;D


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: adamghost on December 07, 2010, 01:56:07 AM
I have a friend (Morley Bartnoff, best known as keyboardist for Dramarama and Burning Sensations) who shared a childhood recollection of being drawn by a crowd at a room at Hawthorne High School and, when he joined the crowd, they were gathered around the Beach Boys giving an informal concert in one of the rooms there.

I'd always raised an eyebrow at this story but coming on top of Carl's tale of a large crowd materializing out of nowhere, it rang a bell in my mind, because it happens to match up with Morley's anecdote.  One problem with the story is wikipedia has Morley's birthdate as '59.  I don't know if that's true or not, but if it is, it either happened much later than the time frame we're concerned with or it didn't happen at all.  It's an interesting mental image though, if this event did take place and it was in '61.  IIRC Morley had said it was in '62, but I couldn't swear to that; it was a long time ago when I heard this and for all I know I might be mixing up who told me the story, too.  Next time I see him I will grill him further.


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: metal flake paint on December 07, 2010, 01:56:33 AM
Was the Carl interview footage used in Endless Harmony not from the same interviews used for Stars and Stripes? Also where in this story does the part about the party they held and the police coming come into place?

That particular quote was lifted from an interview Carl did for the Time-Life History of Rock 'n'Roll in 1993.


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: Zander on December 07, 2010, 02:04:49 AM
OK. I've thought about this. Here's my gameplan.

1 - buy lottery ticket.

2 - win jackpot

3 - fly to LA

4 - spend many months going through the LADP records for Hawthorne for August/September 1961, the Capitol Records archives 1962-1970, the Local 47 filing cabinets for 1961-1970,  the records of United Western, the AFTRA vaults and... oh, any other relevant archive I can think of.

5 - write definitive chronology.

Anything I've missed ? Any major holes ?  ;D



Why are you wasting precious time AGD? Get your hand in your pocket and get that lottery ticket - ha ha! Seriously, that's what it would take to nail a date down really...

Also noticed something regarding your Bellagio page whilst fact finding - for November 1963...

15 - Wallich's Music City, South Bay Center, Los Angeles CA* [grand opening]

Why would they be playing a grand opening for a store that opened in 1940? Was it a personal appearance instead or was it a grand "re-opening"?

http://wiki.killuglyradio.com/wiki/Wallich's_Music_City


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on December 07, 2010, 02:09:16 AM
I have a friend (Morley Bartnoff, best known as keyboardist for Dramarama and Burning Sensations) who shared a childhood recollection of being drawn by a crowd at a room at Hawthorne High School and, when he joined the crowd, they were gathered around the Beach Boys giving an informal concert in one of the rooms there.

I'd always raised an eyebrow at this story but coming on top of Carl's tale of a large crowd materializing out of nowhere, it rang a bell in my mind, because it happens to match up with Morley's anecdote.  One problem with the story is wikipedia has Morley's birthdate as '59.  I don't know if that's true or not, but if it is, it either happened much later than the time frame we're concerned with or it didn't happen at all.  It's an interesting mental image though, if this event did take place and it was in '61.  IIRC Morley had said it was in '62, but I couldn't swear to that; it was a long time ago when I heard this and for all I know I might be mixing up who told me the story, too.  Next time I see him I will grill him further.

Well, July 13th 1962 they 'played' the Hawthorne High School Canteen Dance, so that part stacks up. They also played the HHS Valentine's Dance the following year on February 15th (Mark Groseclose depping for Dennis). June 12th 1964 they played the HHS Senior Breakfast. They also played the senior prom in 1969, but that was at the Beverley Hilton hotel.


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on December 07, 2010, 02:15:46 AM
Also noticed something regarding your Bellagio page whilst fact finding - for November 1963...

15 - Wallich's Music City, South Bay Center, Los Angeles CA* [grand opening]

Why would they be playing a grand opening for a store that opened in 1940? Was it a personal appearance instead or was it a grand "re-opening"?

Check the location - South Bay, not Hollywood. This was a new branch: by fall 1964, although the downtown store had been closed, WMC had branches in Hollywood, Topanga Canyon, South Bay and Lakewood.


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: Zander on December 07, 2010, 02:19:09 AM
Also noticed something regarding your Bellagio page whilst fact finding - for November 1963...

15 - Wallich's Music City, South Bay Center, Los Angeles CA* [grand opening]

Why would they be playing a grand opening for a store that opened in 1940? Was it a personal appearance instead or was it a grand "re-opening"?

Check the location - South Bay, not Hollywood. This was a new branch: by fall 1964, although the downtown store had been closed, WMC had branches in Hollywood, Topanga Canyon, South Bay and Lakewood.

Ah cool, thought that was probably the case but from that Wiki-article it made it sound as though it was just one store and not a chain - cheers


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: Zander on December 07, 2010, 03:32:17 AM
Dennis Interview in Disc (see Badman's book  ::) page 16) - I've shortened it for typing purposes....

"I spent my $100 on a set of drums: one bass drum, snare and a cymbal. We played in the house but neighbours phoned the police"

Assuming it's the same Disc article on that page and the same interview with both Denny and Carl we're informed

1. They got $100 each
2. The drum kit was 2nd hand
3. Their parents were away for 5 days

and that they were starving as they had no food or drinks...  ;) Ha ha...


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on December 07, 2010, 03:45:01 AM
Ha ! Only just noticed that (after having had the book for some six and a half years): Badman gets the Labor Day date entirely wrong, placing it in early August.


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: bgas on December 07, 2010, 06:35:36 AM
Ha ! Only just noticed that (after having had the book for some six and a half years): Badman gets the Labor Day date entirely wrong, placing it in early August.

Yes, of course, but in 1961 they moved the observance of Labor Day to August, so that it would better fit Badman's story when he would write about it some 43 years later. 

OK. I've thought about this. Here's my gameplan.

1 - buy lottery ticket.

2 - win jackpot

3 - fly to LA

4 - spend many months going through the LADP records for Hawthorne for August/September 1961, the Capitol Records archives 1962-1970, the Local 47 filing cabinets for 1961-1970,  the records of United Western, the AFTRA vaults and... oh, any other relevant archive I can think of.

5 - write definitive chronology.

Anything I've missed ? Any major holes ?  ;D



Once you've won the lottery, I suggest you spend a fraction of your winnings:
Hire a squad of former government employees to kidnap Brian, Al, Mike and Dave
    ( Oh what the heck, let's add Virginia Jardine, Jo-Ann Marks, John Maus and Bruce Morgan)
Keep them in individual rooms( so they can't re-work the story once again)
  Starting with hypnosis( and if that doesn't work, truth serum) dig deep into their memories and get back to the root of what really happened( before they were brainwashed by the Murry Files)
Zap them with the MIB Neuralizer, send them home, and write the now definitive chronology
  (Oh yeah, don't forget to give Mike his new memory that he works in the same gas station he has for the last 45 years)


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: Rocker on December 07, 2010, 06:52:06 AM

In the same programme David also says that a "hollow body electro-acoustic" was played unplugged on the recording of "Surfin", would that be Carl's Kay branded guitar or the rental one? Also, seems strange to rent amplifiers to practise then not use them for the recording of "Surfin'"....


Wonder about that too. On "Surfin'" it's not amplified, same goes for "Luau". Or the volume was very, very low.

Would Carl's guitar be something close to this?

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_ysXIRuxIQ20/SnCupjlXRuI/AAAAAAAAA7I/neSXZxmDUBI/s320/Kay+Hollowbody+electric+in+Nashville+for+%24250.jpg)

Taken from this site:

http://craigslistvintageguitarhunt.blogspot.com/2009/07/nice-kay-hollow-body-electric-in.html (http://craigslistvintageguitarhunt.blogspot.com/2009/07/nice-kay-hollow-body-electric-in.html)


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: guitarfool2002 on December 07, 2010, 07:15:06 AM
2 quick points:

Just because the police "showed up", if that's what happened, it doesn't mean they logged it or made any kind of report. Remember this is 1961 - they used pen and paper, and those big IBM "computers" which operated on punch cards to log and dispatch calls - and if they got a noise complaint chances are it would not have been recorded. Just like today, they'd pull up and tell them to keep it down. And a lot of those daily records that weren't considered part of "big" cases or open cases were lost through the years.

Of course the story of the police showing up to a late-summer party with kids dancing in the driveways as the teenaged Wilsons played is a much more romantic story! It's been my experience that any time a group of kids hears music coming from a neighborhood garage, house, or whatever, they'll stand around and watch/listen. It's part of the appeal of being in a band. Ever see "The Wonder Years" episode where Kevin joins a band? - same thing happened there. He struck an A chord, the only one he knew, the kids in the street went nuts, and the cops came to bust it up. Classic!

As far as the Kay guitar - that semi-hollow in the picture could very well have been like the one Carl played, but unless there is more info on what exactly Carl played it's just a guess. Kay was a beginner/lower quality brand, along with Harmony, Silvertone, and others of that ilk, and mostly sold through retailers like Sears to the beginner/student market. This was before the beginner guitar market exploded in the 60's (Beatles influence) and the stores were literally flooded with Japanese imports - most of them pure crap and mostly unplayable.

If you were 13 and wanted a guitar in 1961, and your parents weren't super-wealthy, you'd get a Kay, a Silvertone, or a Harmony...most likely. And if you liked playing guitar, you'd save up and in time get a Fender or Gibson or something better. Again, unless you were wealthy. Beginner/student guitars apart from the brands listed above were actually horrible back then, but the Kay was a decent brand for what it was.

The most famous Kay model guitar? This "Thin Twin" model made famous by Jimmy Reed.

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_M9vslhokstU/SJjWA46VIYI/AAAAAAAABtM/cS0IT8tplyQ/s400/Jimmy+Reed.jpg)


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: Emdeeh on December 10, 2010, 10:51:30 AM
Last night, on Larry Battson's Wild World blogcast, Al Jardine reiterated the "we rented instruments from a music store using my mom's money" version of the story.

That's not an exact quote, but it's the gist -- listen for yourselves at www.blogtalkradio.com/larry-battson, about halfway through.








Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: bgas on December 10, 2010, 11:25:53 AM
Last night, on Larry Battson's Wild World blogcast, Al Jardine reiterated the "we rented instruments from a music store using my mom's money" version of the story.

That's not an exact quote, but it's the gist -- listen for yourselves at www.blogtalkradio.com/larry-battson, about halfway through.



Without listening, but looking at the description, Answers me question of whether it's new sound bites or recorded;
Still, Al isn't known to have the best memory for BBs trivia, and I'll presume he's simply going on what he's repeated and heard so many times that he now believes it.  His version seemingly eliminating all of Murry's money....


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: adamghost on December 10, 2010, 11:38:48 AM
Also, factor in perspective....Al having to cadge money from his mom is going to loom much larger in his mind than in the Wilsons'.


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on December 10, 2010, 11:53:19 AM
Indeed. Alan's part of the tale has always been consistent, and the only sum ever mentioned was $300, as opposed to anything from $80 to $800 for the 'emergency' fund.


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: c-man on December 11, 2010, 09:34:23 AM
As for why Carl would play the electro/acoustic Kay unplugged on the record instead of the newly-rented Fender Strat...the same reason Al played stand-up bass on the record, and Brian played a snare drum only instead of someone, Denny or a pro drummer, playing the full kit:  they were going for a simple folk sound instead of a rock sound.


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: c-man on December 11, 2010, 10:03:39 AM
Regarding the bass rental, here's something ELSE to consider...in the liner notes of "Carl And The Passions - So Tough", Alan's mom is thanked for renting "the bass fiddle on the first session"...and in Badman's book (pg. 17) Dennis is quoted as describing their first gig (December 23rd):  "Alan played (an upright) bass, which was bigger than him".

So, we can POSSIBLY come to the conclusion that Virigina's rental of the bass was for more than just a weekend...maybe the Wilsons payed for the initial (Labor Day) weekend rental with Murry's food money, and then when it became obvious they'd be recording & playing gigs, Al's mom plopped down $300 for a long-term rental (say October-January).  That might also explain why there is no bass on the September 15th demo session:  it had been returned after the Labor Day weekend, and wouldn't be rented again until it was needed for the early October master session.

Also Andrew, I think the Labor Day timeline still makes sense, even if the demo session wasn't until mid-month:  they simply needed the extra time to practice & get better (while still attending classes or working).


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on December 11, 2010, 10:19:51 AM
Regarding the bass rental, here's something ELSE to consider...in the liner notes of "Carl And The Passions - So Tough", Alan's mom is thanked for renting "the bass fiddle on the first session"...and in Badman's book (pg. 17) Dennis is quoted as describing their first gig (December 23rd):  "Alan played (an upright) bass, which was bigger than him".

So, we can POSSIBLY come to the conclusion that Virigina's rental of the bass was for more than just a weekend...maybe the Wilsons payed for the initial (Labor Day) weekend rental with Murry's food money, and then when it became obvious they'd be recording & playing gigs, Al's mom plopped down $300 for a long-term rental (say October-January).  That might also explain why there is no bass on the September 15th demo session:  it had been returned after the Labor Day weekend, and wouldn't be rented again until it was needed for the early October master session.

Also Andrew, I think the Labor Day timeline still makes sense, even if the demo session wasn't until mid-month:  they simply needed the extra time to practice & get better (while still attending classes or working).

Small problem: no-one, going back as far as I can as regards print sources, makes so much as a passing reference to the Labor Day weekend beign when they rented the instruments and bass. I could understand one or two people forgetting it decades after the event... but for everyone to forget it within three or so years is highly unlikely. So, I'm sticking with my revised timeline, thus:

September 1-3 - Labor Day weekend, Murry & Audree go... somewhere, the band auditions for the Morgans.
September 8-9 - Murry & Audree go... somewhere (again), the band rent instruments and rehearse "Surfin'", "Luau" & "Lavender"
September 15  - demo session at Morgan's house.


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: c-man on December 11, 2010, 05:45:41 PM
Something else that occurred to me...maybe it wasn't "Surfin'" that got Brian that F, but rather "Surfer Girl" (or at least the melody of it)...after all, that's supposed to be the first song he ever wrote.


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on December 12, 2010, 02:51:32 AM
Something else that occurred to me...maybe it wasn't "Surfin'" that got Brian that F, but rather "Surfer Girl" (or at least the melody of it)...after all, that's supposed to be the first song he ever wrote.

Um... Thinking Fred Morgan would recognise a variation of "When You Wish Upon A Star".  :o


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: c-man on December 12, 2010, 02:03:52 PM
Something else that occurred to me...maybe it wasn't "Surfin'" that got Brian that F, but rather "Surfer Girl" (or at least the melody of it)...after all, that's supposed to be the first song he ever wrote.

Um... Thinking Fred Morgan would recognise a variation of "When You Wish Upon A Star".  :o

Well...he did give it an "F".  :)


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on December 12, 2010, 02:58:45 PM
Something else that occurred to me...maybe it wasn't "Surfin'" that got Brian that F, but rather "Surfer Girl" (or at least the melody of it)...after all, that's supposed to be the first song he ever wrote.

Um... Thinking Fred Morgan would recognise a variation of "When You Wish Upon A Star".  :o

Well...he did give it an "F".  :)

I once handed in the lyric to "Space Oddity" for a homework assignment - not only did I get a fail and a detention for being a smartass (see, it's nothing new), but also a dressing down in front of the whole class for assuming my tutor was not only hopelessly unhip but also stupid. Taught me a valuable lesson: if you're going to do that, never use a chart hit.


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: bgas on December 12, 2010, 03:28:55 PM
Something else that occurred to me...maybe it wasn't "Surfin'" that got Brian that F, but rather "Surfer Girl" (or at least the melody of it)...after all, that's supposed to be the first song he ever wrote.

Um... Thinking Fred Morgan would recognise a variation of "When You Wish Upon A Star".  :o

Well...he did give it an "F".  :)

I once handed in the lyric to "Space Oddity" for a homework assignment - not only did I get a fail and a detention for being a smartass (see, it's nothing new), but also a dressing down in front of the whole class for assuming my tutor was not only hopelessly unhip but also stupid. Taught me a valuable lesson: if you're going to do that, never use a chart hit.

Then it was smart for Brian to hand in either Surfin or Surfer Girl, because at that time, neither was a chart hit. 
Correct?


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: guitarfool2002 on December 12, 2010, 04:36:30 PM
and then when it became obvious they'd be recording & playing gigs, Al's mom plopped down $300 for a long-term rental (say October-January).  That might also explain why there is no bass on the September 15th demo session:  it had been returned after the Labor Day weekend, and wouldn't be rented again until it was needed for the early October master session.


I think it was an "impulse buy" or in this case "impulse rental" to get the stand up acoustic bass. I said the same thing about the type of folk music Al was into at that time having little or no electric bass or full drum kits (heck I think it was 1963 or 64 before a drum set was allowed on the Grand Ol' Opry stage just for perspective from the Nashville world), so it's definitely a factor in their decision.

Maybe they had the folk sound in their minds and their immediate plans, but lugging a stand up bass to the type of teenage Legion Hall types of gigs the Boys would be booking would have been a waste of time because you'd never hear it over drums and electric guitars in a live setting.

So my next questions are:

1. When why and how did Brian and not Al become the "official" bass player when they went electric and ditched the folk stuff?

2. Did they book and or play any gigs which would have been at folk clubs or concerts, or were the first gigs "electric" with the famous lineup?

It still bugs me why Al didn't get/rent a Fender bass when it most likely would have cost less than renting that acoustic. And a Fender was definitely not taller than Al himself at the time. ;D


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: bgas on December 12, 2010, 04:40:25 PM
and then when it became obvious they'd be recording & playing gigs, Al's mom plopped down $300 for a long-term rental (say October-January).  That might also explain why there is no bass on the September 15th demo session:  it had been returned after the Labor Day weekend, and wouldn't be rented again until it was needed for the early October master session.


I think it was an "impulse buy" or in this case "impulse rental" to get the stand up acoustic bass. I said the same thing about the type of folk music Al was into at that time having little or no electric bass or full drum kits (heck I think it was 1963 or 64 before a drum set was allowed on the Grand Ol' Opry stage just for perspective from the Nashville world), so it's definitely a factor in their decision.

Maybe they had the folk sound in their minds and their immediate plans, but lugging a stand up bass to the type of teenage Legion Hall types of gigs the Boys would be booking would have been a waste of time because you'd never hear it over drums and electric guitars in a live setting.

So my next questions are:

1. When why and how did Brian and not Al become the "official" bass player when they went electric and ditched the folk stuff?

2. Did they book and or play any gigs which would have been at folk clubs or concerts, or were the first gigs "electric" with the famous lineup?

It still bugs me why Al didn't get/rent a Fender bass when it most likely would have cost less than renting that acoustic. And a Fender was definitely not taller than Al himself at the time. ;D

Maybe the store didn't rent electric basses. Heck, for that matter, maybe  it was an acoustic only rental store, which would explain the need for the Wilson's money to get some electric instruments so they could really wail! 


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: guitarfool2002 on December 12, 2010, 04:46:46 PM
So they rented the bass at the acoustic-only store, and went elsewhere for the electric instruments? Maybe so, if there were acoustic-only shops in that area.

Sounds a bit like the Monty Python "cheese shop" skit...

Do you have a Fender Stratocaster?
No sir, we're fresh out of those.
How about a Gibson EB-O?
I'm sorry, we're out of those as well.
This IS a music shop, isn't it?
Yes sir, one of the finest in California!
Okay then, do you have any amplifiers?
No, sorry, we're fresh out of those.

etc etc etc


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: bgas on December 12, 2010, 04:52:03 PM
So they rented the bass at the acoustic-only store, and went elsewhere for the electric instruments? Maybe so, if there were acoustic-only shops in that area.

Sounds a bit like the Monty Python "cheese shop" skit...

Do you have a Fender Stratocaster?
No sir, we're fresh out of those.
How about a Gibson EB-O?
I'm sorry, we're out of those as well.
This IS a music shop, isn't it?
Yes sir, one of the finest in California!
Okay then, do you have any amplifiers?
No, sorry, we're fresh out of those.

etc etc etc


well, I think that's part of the problem; no one now, seems to know just what was available then. While the $300 figure has remained consistent for almost 50 years, nothing else in connection with the tale has been the same. The story changes. While they remember the amount, I don't recall ever reading about a specific store. It could have been the shop around the corner, or Wallich's Music City, or anywhere in between.


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: guitarfool2002 on December 12, 2010, 05:19:41 PM

I don't recall ever reading about a specific store. It could have been the shop around the corner, or Wallich's Music City, or anywhere in between.

Timothy White's book mentions Wallich's by name. Carrie Marks a few pages ago mentions the possibility of a shop called "Hogan's" in Hawthorne.



Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: c-man on December 12, 2010, 07:37:55 PM

I don't recall ever reading about a specific store. It could have been the shop around the corner, or Wallich's Music City, or anywhere in between.

Timothy White's book mentions Wallich's by name. Carrie Marks a few pages ago mentions the possibility of a shop called "Hogan's" in Hawthorne.



I think Carl also mentioned "Hogan's House Of Music" in some interview years ago.


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: bgas on December 12, 2010, 09:33:01 PM

I don't recall ever reading about a specific store. It could have been the shop around the corner, or Wallich's Music City, or anywhere in between.

Timothy White's book mentions Wallich's by name. Carrie Marks a few pages ago mentions the possibility of a shop called "Hogan's" in Hawthorne.

I think Carl also mentioned "Hogan's House Of Music" in some interview years ago.

Yeah, I probably don't retain enough of the stuff I'm reading here.

 Looking around on the AGeD man's favorite forwarding site, I found a 1969 picture of Hogan's House Of Music at 15707 Hawthorne Blvd in Lawndale, Ca, which is about 20 blocks down Hawthorne Blvd from Hawthorne,CA.
http://books.google.com/books?id=B1to3W3oupYC&pg=PA112&lpg=PA112#v=onepage&q&f=false

This is probably the  Carl interview you're thinking of, done by Billy Hinsche in 1981, where Carl definitely calls it Hogan's:  http://brianwilsonfans.com/a_cw.php

Of course, AL, in this interview taken from Golmine mag(2000) adds some changes to  the Rental story once again( and some other "nice" changes to history:   http://brianwilsonfans.com/page11.php





Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: guitarfool2002 on December 12, 2010, 10:24:27 PM
Scrolling down the page of that Lawndale/Hawthorne book, you'll see a 1970 class photo from Will Rogers school in Lawndale.

I think I found "Snooki" from MTV - I didn't know she was from that area... ;)

(http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n295/guitarfool2002/snooki1.jpg)


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: BJL on December 12, 2010, 10:57:24 PM

This is probably the  Carl interview you're thinking of, done by Billy Hinsche in 1981, where Carl definitely calls it Hogan's:  http://brianwilsonfans.com/a_cw.php

Of course, AL, in this interview taken from Golmine mag(2000) adds some changes to  the Rental story once again( and some other "nice" changes to history:   http://brianwilsonfans.com/page11.php


"When our folks went to Mexico on business, we would take the food money they had left us and rent instruments from Hogan's House of Music on Hawthorne Boulevard."

This is probably insignificant, but Carl pretty clearly implied here that the folks went away more than once...  Otherwise he would have said "we took."  Obviously not hugely significant on its own, but could be another small support for the idea that there was more than one business trip. 


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on December 13, 2010, 12:55:36 AM

This is probably the  Carl interview you're thinking of, done by Billy Hinsche in 1981, where Carl definitely calls it Hogan's:  http://brianwilsonfans.com/a_cw.php

Of course, AL, in this interview taken from Golmine mag(2000) adds some changes to  the Rental story once again( and some other "nice" changes to history:   http://brianwilsonfans.com/page11.php


"When our folks went to Mexico on business, we would take the food money they had left us and rent instruments from Hogan's House of Music on Hawthorne Boulevard."

This is probably insignificant, but Carl pretty clearly implied here that the folks went away more than once...  Otherwise he would have said "we took."  Obviously not hugely significant on its own, but could be another small support for the idea that there was more than one business trip.  

Nice catch... except that it wasn't a business trip, but a trip with business associates, but given it was some 20 years and a lot of inhaling later, small point.

I'm assuming the 'family friend' would be David.


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: Carrie Marks on December 13, 2010, 04:30:51 AM
No, the family friend was a friend of Murry's. 

I can confirm Hogan's House of Music's stock rental guitar at that time was a solid body Rickenbacker (like Carl mentions) because David also rented it for his 1st couple of shows before he got his Strat. 


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on December 13, 2010, 05:02:14 AM
No, the family friend was a friend of Murry's.  

I can confirm Hogan's House of Music's stock rental guitar at that time was a solid body Rickenbacker (like Carl mentions) because David also rented it for his 1st couple of shows before he got his Strat.  

So... Hogan's (just down the street, maybe 3 miles) and not Wallich's (nearly 20 miles across town in Hollywood) ?  Logical, makes sense (and yes, I know I just applied logic to a situation involving The Beach Boys, which is at best an exercise in futility if not actual heartbreak...  ;D)

Problem is, you collect all the available interviews and, while they agree on certain points, on others they're diametrically opposed and, try as I might, I can't make them fit my preferred theory. Which is of course most annoying.


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: c-man on December 13, 2010, 05:09:56 AM
No, the family friend was a friend of Murry's. 

I can confirm Hogan's House of Music's stock rental guitar at that time was a solid body Rickenbacker (like Carl mentions) because David also rented it for his 1st couple of shows before he got his Strat. 

So... Hogan's (just down the street) and not Wallich's (across town in Hollywood) ?  Logical, makes sense (and yes, I know I just applied logic to a situation involving The Beach Boys, which is at best an exercise in futility if not actual heartbreak...  ;D)

Problem is, you collect all the available interviews and, while they agree on certain points, on others they're diametrically opposed and, try as I might, I can't make them fit my preferred theory. Which is of course most annoying.

Well, you know what they say about crime scene witnesses...if a bunch of people agree 100% on ALL the details, then something's fishy...


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on December 13, 2010, 05:12:09 AM
No, the family friend was a friend of Murry's.  

I can confirm Hogan's House of Music's stock rental guitar at that time was a solid body Rickenbacker (like Carl mentions) because David also rented it for his 1st couple of shows before he got his Strat.  

So... Hogan's (just down the street) and not Wallich's (across town in Hollywood) ?  Logical, makes sense (and yes, I know I just applied logic to a situation involving The Beach Boys, which is at best an exercise in futility if not actual heartbreak...  ;D)

Problem is, you collect all the available interviews and, while they agree on certain points, on others they're diametrically opposed and, try as I might, I can't make them fit my preferred theory. Which is of course most annoying.

Well, you know what they say about crime scene witnesses...if a bunch of people agree 100% on ALL the details, then something's fishy...

Yeah... OK, then I'll just ignore everything that doesn't fit the way I want it to.  ;D

Hmmm... been doing some snooping, and while Wallich's sold instruments, I can't find any mention of them doing rentals.


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: guitarfool2002 on December 13, 2010, 08:45:27 AM

I can confirm Hogan's House of Music's stock rental guitar at that time was a solid body Rickenbacker (like Carl mentions) because David also rented it for his 1st couple of shows before he got his Strat. 

This little piece of information fascinates me, because as a guitar player it would be insane for a music store today in 2010 to rent a Rickenbacker!

It's interesting to place this discussion into two categories: time and location. The time being pre-Beatles 1961 when hardly anyone except maybe James Burton on Ricky Nelson's tv show was seen playing a Rickenbacker guitar. Rickenbacker was located in Santa Ana, so it would make perfect sense to have their product in the California music shops, and if such a shop made the instrument(s) available to rent, it was a great advertisement for that renter to come back and want to buy one later.

The Beatles, Carl Wilson, and Roger McGuinn a few years later sold more Rickenbackers than the company could ever have imagined in 1961! But it is fascinating to hear that Rickenbackers, which are considered "exclusive" guitars today, were being rented.

Are there any photos of David with that solidbody Rickenbacker? I'm curious which model he was using.

And it should be noted too how David, Carl, Al, and other S. California bands in that area had easier access at the time to what are now considered among the finest and most iconic electric guitars, basses, and amplifiers in history, with Fender's factory in Fullerton and Rickenbacker in Santa Ana.

What an incredible time and place to be in a band...


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: bgas on December 18, 2010, 09:14:47 PM
To be clear, we're working in muddy waters: 
Just picked up a 30 year old( 1981) interview with David that has some interesting bits, but also some differences from what I've seen posted more recently. 
Typing  in some excerpts. I think it shows , again, how memories are a funny thing. What is remembered seems to change; and maybe depends where you are at the time.  I'll  Try to  scan and post the whole thing somehow;( the biggest page is 11 X 15, all type) 
 RD is the interviewer, DM David Marks: 

RD: How did your interest in music develop? DM: My grandmother bought me a trumpet when I was in 5th grade and I played in the school band. I loved Harry James-- saw him on the Tonight Show or something-- and he was who I wanted to be. So I wanted to be a mucsician early. Then, I saw a guy and his sister, John and Judy Moss, singing with a trio behind them. John had played with Ritchie Valens. When I saw this guy playing guitar and singing I said to myself, "That's what I want to do". When I was 11, I got a guiitar for Christmas and took a few lessons from John. Meanwhile, Carl had taken up guitar in high school and sat in with John's band for a few bar gigs, so he and I started doing Ventures tunes--sittying around the living room, learning them off the records for our own amusment. 

RD: what was Brian doing then?  DM:  Brian was going to El Camino Junior college, studying music. He was 18 and really into Chuck Berry and the Four Freshmen. He used to stude the Four Freshmen, their harmony. He and his cousin Mike, plus Al Jardine from the junior college and another guy I forget, had a little group, Kenny and the Kadets. They weren't into surf music, they just played for parties and bar mitzvahs and stuff. 

RD: So there you were, all practicing together?  DM:  Yeah, learning to play guitar. Brian and carl were on separate trips at the time. Brian with his group, Carl jamming with me and another guy up the streer who had an accordion. But then Brian started taking advantage of the family situation-- he Was the big brother, right?-- and beagn to incorporate us all into his group. " hey, Carl, why don't you come over here and play this guitar part? I just made up the lick on the piano" Dennis didn't play an instrument but started learning drums. I wasn't really in the group then, though. I was practicing with them, but Al Jardine was playing upright bass with them. I was just their kid frien from across the street, going, " Hey guys, can I play too? can I, huh, huh?" 

RD: So when did the recording career start?  DM: Murry was a failed songwriter. He'd placed a song with Lawrence Welk, but not much else. He had a few contacts in the business. So he told the group, "hey why don't you guys record?"He knew a guy with a studio, Candix Records, and the band went down and recorded "surfin". I'd been practicing with them, and when they snuck out that record without me, I was really crushed.

RD: That was Al playing on the first single?  DM: Yeah. But then Al said " well this is going nowhere" and split to go back to dentistry school. 

RD: and so a new star was born.  DM: Right. I was 12 years old, sitting at home with mommy and daddy, watching TV and getting ready for school the next day. The Wilsons came over and said, " Do you want to be in the group?... My first gig with them was at the Bel Aire Bay Club, and we wore ugly mustard-colored coats that were way too big for us. especially mine. Real nerdy.

RD: Was the group called the BBs in those  early days?  DM:  No it was called the Pendletones, which Brian thought would be a real cool name since all the surfers wore Pendleton shirts. An independent promotion man, RUss Reagan, came up with the name "Beach Boys" and we all went "Yuck!" We all thought it was really embarassing. But Capitol loved the name, so we stuck with it


RD: The whole group was involved from "Surfin Safari" on?  DM: well Carl, brian and Mike always did all the singing. Dennis sang a little onstage, but not on the records, at least while I was with them. Y'know, I've actually played on more of those first songs than Dennis did. Brian was really into hiring studio drummers--  Hal Blaine and those guys.   

RD: How did the surfers react?  DM: The surferes in LA were a gang and they resented the BBS because surfing was a scared sport to them, They were reverent about it. Dick Dale and his Deltones were the official surfer band, the surfers adopted him... He was the first to sing "Sloop John B". And we copped his sound, so the surferes hated us. They would go after us us in the parking lots after gigs, try to kick our butts good.

RD:  Which albums are you on?  DM:  I played on the first five albums and about seven singles, some of them doubled sided hits; Fun Fun Fun was the first single they did without me. Brian came over to play it on my stereo, to see if it would sound good on the radio. 

RD: Why have you been quiet all these years? We were beginning to think of you as the American Pete Best.  DM:  I've been embarassed by it for the last 20 years. No one I know likes the BBs; they haven't progressed musically. Carl can't play the guitar any better today than he did 15 years ago.

Some funny stories that he's probably told since ( Or maybe not)  are included.


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: Mikie on December 18, 2010, 10:04:14 PM
Brian was going to El Camino Junior college, studying music. He was 18 and really into Chuck Berry and the Four Freshmen. He used to stude the Four Freshmen, their harmony. He and his cousin Mike, plus Al Jardine from the junior college and another guy I forget, had a little group, Kenny and the Kadets. They weren't into surf music, they just played for parties and bar mitzvahs and stuff.

In early 1962, when The Beach Boys were still with Candix, Bruce Morgan had a couple of instrumental tracks that he had recorded with other musicians. On "Barbie," Brian Wilson sang lead; Carl Wilson, Al Jardine, and Audree Wilson sang backup vocals. Val Poliuto added bass vocals. Mike and Dennis didn't participate in this session. On "What Is a Young Girl Made Of?", Brian took the lead vocal, and none of the other Beach Boys participated. This little recording "group" was called "Kenny & The Cadets". A single with the two songs was released in April, 1962 ( Randy 422).


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: Jon Stebbins on December 18, 2010, 10:28:59 PM
To be clear, we're working in muddy waters: 
Just picked up a 30 year old( 1981) interview with David that has some interesting bits, but also some differences from what I've seen posted more recently. 
Typing  in some excerpts. I think it shows , again, how memories are a funny thing. What is remembered seems to change; and maybe depends where you are at the time.  I'll  Try to  scan and post the whole thing somehow;( the biggest page is 11 X 15, all type) 
 RD is the interviewer, DM David Marks: 

RD: How did your interest in music develop? DM: My grandmother bought me a trumpet when I was in 5th grade and I played in the school band. I loved Harry James-- saw him on the Tonight Show or something-- and he was who I wanted to be. So I wanted to be a mucsician early. Then, I saw a guy and his sister, John and Judy Moss, singing with a trio behind them. John had played with Ritchie Valens. When I saw this guy playing guitar and singing I said to myself, "That's what I want to do". When I was 11, I got a guiitar for Christmas and took a few lessons from John. Meanwhile, Carl had taken up guitar in high school and sat in with John's band for a few bar gigs, so he and I started doing Ventures tunes--sittying around the living room, learning them off the records for our own amusment. 

RD: what was Brian doing then?  DM:  Brian was going to El Camino Junior college, studying music. He was 18 and really into Chuck Berry and the Four Freshmen. He used to stude the Four Freshmen, their harmony. He and his cousin Mike, plus Al Jardine from the junior college and another guy I forget, had a little group, Kenny and the Kadets. They weren't into surf music, they just played for parties and bar mitzvahs and stuff. 

RD: So there you were, all practicing together?  DM:  Yeah, learning to play guitar. Brian and carl were on separate trips at the time. Brian with his group, Carl jamming with me and another guy up the streer who had an accordion. But then Brian started taking advantage of the family situation-- he Was the big brother, right?-- and beagn to incorporate us all into his group. " hey, Carl, why don't you come over here and play this guitar part? I just made up the lick on the piano" Dennis didn't play an instrument but started learning drums. I wasn't really in the group then, though. I was practicing with them, but Al Jardine was playing upright bass with them. I was just their kid frien from across the street, going, " Hey guys, can I play too? can I, huh, huh?" 

RD: So when did the recording career start?  DM: Murry was a failed songwriter. He'd placed a song with Lawrence Welk, but not much else. He had a few contacts in the business. So he told the group, "hey why don't you guys record?"He knew a guy with a studio, Candix Records, and the band went down and recorded "surfin". I'd been practicing with them, and when they snuck out that record without me, I was really crushed.

RD: That was Al playing on the first single?  DM: Yeah. But then Al said " well this is going nowhere" and split to go back to dentistry school. 

RD: and so a new star was born.  DM: Right. I was 12 years old, sitting at home with mommy and daddy, watching TV and getting ready for school the next day. The Wilsons came over and said, " Do you want to be in the group?... My first gig with them was at the Bel Aire Bay Club, and we wore ugly mustard-colored coats that were way too big for us. especially mine. Real nerdy.

RD: Was the group called the BBs in those  early days?  DM:  No it was called the Pendletones, which Brian thought would be a real cool name since all the surfers wore Pendleton shirts. An independent promotion man, RUss Reagan, came up with the name "Beach Boys" and we all went "Yuck!" We all thought it was really embarassing. But Capitol loved the name, so we stuck with it


RD: The whole group was involved from "Surfin Safari" on?  DM: well Carl, brian and Mike always did all the singing. Dennis sang a little onstage, but not on the records, at least while I was with them. Y'know, I've actually played on more of those first songs than Dennis did. Brian was really into hiring studio drummers--  Hal Blaine and those guys.   

RD: How did the surfers react?  DM: The surferes in LA were a gang and they resented the BBS because surfing was a scared sport to them, They were reverent about it. Dick Dale and his Deltones were the official surfer band, the surfers adopted him... He was the first to sing "Sloop John B". And we copped his sound, so the surferes hated us. They would go after us us in the parking lots after gigs, try to kick our butts good.

RD:  Which albums are you on?  DM:  I played on the first five albums and about seven singles, some of them doubled sided hits; Fun Fun Fun was the first single they did without me. Brian came over to play it on my stereo, to see if it would sound good on the radio. 

RD: Why have you been quiet all these years? We were beginning to think of you as the American Pete Best.  DM:  I've been embarassed by it for the last 20 years. No one I know likes the BBs; they haven't progressed musically. Carl can't play the guitar any better today than he did 15 years ago.

Some funny stories that he's probably told since ( Or maybe not)  are included.
I think most interviews with Dave from his substance addiction years have some fairly dubious comments. He'll be the first to admit he didn't care very much about being accurate back then. Especially telling is where he says Dennis didn't sing on the records while he was there. Dennis' voice is on the majority of the songs on the first five LP's...so Dave's comment that he played on those LP's, but that Dennis didn't sing on the records while he was there is very contradictory. Probably mostly due to the fact that he didn't care...or had convinced himself he didn't so he could manage the baggage.


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: Mike's Beard on December 19, 2010, 01:22:20 AM
Also the comment about being on the first 5 lps, which Dave also said on the "Endless Harmony" doc - wasn't it during the recording of "Little Deuce Coupe" that Dave left the band? How would he be on "Shut Down II" unless it contained some earlier recordings?


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on December 19, 2010, 02:32:56 AM
Also the comment about being on the first 5 lps, which Dave also said on the "Endless Harmony" doc - wasn't it during the recording of "Little Deuce Coupe" that Dave left the band? How would he be on "Shut Down II" unless it contained some earlier recordings?

It's very possible, bordering on probable, that David is on "Little St. Nick" single. Now, at the same session for that, the band recorded an alternate track which was later used for "Drive-In"


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on December 19, 2010, 02:36:48 AM
To be clear, we're working in muddy waters: 
Just picked up a 30 year old( 1981) interview with David that has some interesting bits, but also some differences from what I've seen posted more recently. 
Typing  in some excerpts. I think it shows , again, how memories are a funny thing. What is remembered seems to change; and maybe depends where you are at the time. 

Or where your head is at the time - David will be the first to admit he wasn't in the best possible shape at that time.


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: Mikie on December 19, 2010, 06:18:04 AM
I wonder if, like Dave says in the interview, all of them really thought the Beach Boys name was "an embarassment"?

And I hope that Carl Wilson was a little better on guitar than 15 years prior......  :)


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: bgas on December 19, 2010, 07:33:06 AM
To be clear, we're working in muddy waters: 
Just picked up a 30 year old( 1981) interview with David that has some interesting bits, but also some differences from what I've seen posted more recently. 
Typing  in some excerpts. I think it shows , again, how memories are a funny thing. What is remembered seems to change; and maybe depends where you are at the time. 

Or where your head is at the time - David will be the first to admit he wasn't in the best possible shape at that time.

Yes, exactly what I meant to say; where your head is at. Bad language usage on my part


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: c-man on December 19, 2010, 07:44:25 AM
That interview, in Trouser Press, was considered a watershed of information at the time.  I'm glad we now have a whole book of Dave's memoirs, told from a perspective of sobriety and unembarassment over his past.


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: Carrie Marks on December 19, 2010, 09:00:07 AM
For the record, David did that interview in a BAR! With that being said, other than some chronological details which he is admittedly bad with still to this day, I have to say there are a lot less factual errors than I would expect considering his state of mind and how he felt about the Beach Boys in general at that time...almost 30 years ago!

David said he never sang on any records, but we know that's not true either. In his mind, he and Dennis were not the main singers in the band, so he is rather flippant about their participation on the vocals...even though they both sang some. And the dental school comment is wrong.  Other than that, the only real fact that jumps out to me as outright wrong is the Bay Club being his first show - I think he believed that based on there being a photo from that night.  However, he's playing a Strat in that photo and he had a rented Ricky (see above post) for the first several shows so the BABC couldn't have been his 1st show.

David's worst crime in this interview was his inability to self-edit...which he's gotten much better at thanks to sobriety and extensive media training ;-)


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on December 19, 2010, 09:47:44 AM
David's worst crime in this interview was his inability to self-edit...which he's gotten much better at thanks to sobriety and extensive media training ;-)

Not to mention a spouse poking him in the ribs when required.  ;D


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: bgas on December 19, 2010, 03:15:28 PM
For the record, David did that interview in a BAR! With that being said, other than some chronological details which he is admittedly bad with still to this day, I have to say there are a lot less factual errors than I would expect considering his state of mind and how he felt about the Beach Boys in general at that time...almost 30 years ago!

David said he never sang on any records, but we know that's not true either. In his mind, he and Dennis were not the main singers in the band, so he is rather flippant about their participation on the vocals...even though they both sang some. And the dental school comment is wrong.  Other than that, the only real fact that jumps out to me as outright wrong is the Bay Club being his first show - I think he believed that based on there being a photo from that night.  However, he's playing a Strat in that photo and he had a rented Ricky (see above post) for the first several shows so the BABC couldn't have been his 1st show.

David's worst crime in this interview was his inability to self-edit...which he's gotten much better at thanks to sobriety and extensive media training ;-)

That interview, in Trouser Press, was considered a watershed of information at the time.  I'm glad we now have a whole book of Dave's memoirs, told from a perspective of sobriety and unembarassment over his past.

Is this available on-line anywhere? There are some interesting tidbits/gossip that I thought were fun to read about the BBs, but I don't really want to type in the whole interview, presuming anyone really cares. I'm just not that good a typist. 


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: guitarfool2002 on December 20, 2010, 07:16:03 AM
he's playing a Strat in that photo and he had a rented Ricky (see above post) for the first several shows so the BABC couldn't have been his 1st show.

I know I've asked the same thing above, but are there any photos of David with the Rickenbacker or any additional information on the model he was playing?

I'm a guitar geek, I thrive on this stuff... :)


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: bgas on December 20, 2010, 08:18:13 AM
he's playing a Strat in that photo and he had a rented Ricky (see above post) for the first several shows so the BABC couldn't have been his 1st show.

I know I've asked the same thing above, but are there any photos of David with the Rickenbacker or any additional information on the model he was playing?

I'm a guitar geek, I thrive on this stuff... :)

Might as well ask for pics of the group with Al playing, pre-David. There just aren't any.
Tho, one has to wonder if maybe Audree's scrapbook might not contain some pictures, wherever it's gotten to. 
At that point in time the BBs weren't a major news item, so to speak.


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: guitarfool2002 on December 20, 2010, 08:23:01 AM
he's playing a Strat in that photo and he had a rented Ricky (see above post) for the first several shows so the BABC couldn't have been his 1st show.

I know I've asked the same thing above, but are there any photos of David with the Rickenbacker or any additional information on the model he was playing?

I'm a guitar geek, I thrive on this stuff... :)

Might as well ask for pics of the group with Al playing, pre-David. There just aren't any.
Tho, one has to wonder if maybe Audree's scrapbook might not contain some pictures, wherever it's gotten to. 
At that point in time the BBs weren't a major news item, so to speak.


How about Marks family photos for reference or even a personal recollection, not that I want a first-generation copy of a photo but just to find out what kind of Rickenbacker guitar he was playing.

Like those amazing 50's color shots of John, Paul, and George at a party in Liverpool holding guitars...they weren't exactly a major news item either.


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on December 20, 2010, 10:16:19 AM
he's playing a Strat in that photo and he had a rented Ricky (see above post) for the first several shows so the BABC couldn't have been his 1st show.

I know I've asked the same thing above, but are there any photos of David with the Rickenbacker or any additional information on the model he was playing?

I'm a guitar geek, I thrive on this stuff... :)

Might as well ask for pics of the group with Al playing, pre-David. There just aren't any.
Tho, one has to wonder if maybe Audree's scrapbook might not contain some pictures, wherever it's gotten to. 
At that point in time the BBs weren't a major news item, so to speak.


How about Marks family photos for reference or even a personal recollection, not that I want a first-generation copy of a photo but just to find out what kind of Rickenbacker guitar he was playing.

I'm thinking if any such existed, they'd have been in David's book.


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: Carrie Marks on December 20, 2010, 11:00:51 AM
There are no photos of David playing the Rickenbacker, unfortunately.  There's a picture of him playing his 1st guitar in the Lost Beach Boy, a Sears Silvertone, that he played on Your Summer Dream.  More recently, I found a photo of him playing a Carvin, which was his 1st electric guitar that he bought from John Maus.

As for pre-David photos, years ago Al told me there was an official band photo taken around the time of Surfin' (and they were wearing sweaters) but he didn't know where his copy was. Now, whether or not this photo was actually taken prior to David or whether he's remembering the first photo shoot w/out David in late '63 remains to be seen...but I wouldn't be surprised if a late '61 BB photo shows up one day.  Maybe in the same place as the missing session logs and tapes from the SG & LDC LPs?

edit:  David said he doesn't remember the model of the rented Rickenbacker...just that it was solid body, small and was blonde-to-red sunburst.  Don't know if that helps you narrow it down to a particular guitar or not?


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: bgas on December 20, 2010, 11:07:10 AM
There are no photos of David playing the Rickenbacker, unfortunately.  There's a picture of him playing his 1st guitar in the Lost Beach Boy, a Sears Silvertone, that he played on Your Summer Dream.  More recently, I found a photo of him playing a Carvin, which was his 1st electric guitar that he bought from John Maus.

As for pre-David photos, years ago Al told me there was an official band photo taken around the time of Surfin' (and they were wearing sweaters) but he didn't know where his copy was. Now, whether or not this photo was actually taken prior to David or whether he's remembering the first photo shoot w/out David in late '63 remains to be seen...but I wouldn't be surprised if a late '61 BB photo shows up one day.  Maybe in the same place as the missing session logs and tapes from the SG & LDC LPs?

Carrie: you should just take that box out of the "secret hiding place" and open it now.

Edit:
Thinking a bit about it from a collector's viewpoint: 
Owning a record/tape/ gold record award/ Brian's bowling shoes/  is something I could look at and think, at least to some extent, I OWN this, and it's mine to share a copy.
If I had a photo(s) like that( I don't) and I shared it, what keeps someone from having the same photo? ( in this digital age) maybe even goiing to some length to duplicate the aging paper to simulate it being the original.  And in collecting, that's important.
 Just thinking  there may be a collector somewhere who owns one (or more) of these photos and doesn't feel the "need" to share; owning them is the satisfaction. That the only way they'll ever appear is on their passing...
 OR: there are fans that took pictures at the time, forgot about them, and don't have a glimmer how important they would be to people here


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on May 29, 2011, 05:45:22 AM
During the course of looking for something else entirely, I came across this quote from Murry:

"I gave the boys enough money for food while I went away on a three-week business trip. When I came back, they'd spent the cash on electronic equipment"

Now, $300 for three weeks makes a lot more sense than for three days, and it's a long business trip, not taking friends to Acapulco for a long weekend. Three weeks in the USA... or a trip to Europe, and England to see the people at Binns & Berry ?  Looks like JoAnne could be right.

Question - has anyone here ever seen a quote from Murry - not anyone else - saying he took anyone to Mexico City in summer 1961 ?


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: bsten on May 29, 2011, 06:27:36 AM

Perhaps Murry had an affair with Jo Ann? She used to sit between Murry and Audree in his car, remember? Perhaps Murry and Jo Ann went to England together? Perhaps he gave the boys (because someone found out about the affair) that money to "shut up or else..." He was a violent man and the boys were afraid of him. And after all, this was 1961 and you wouldn't want people to learn about such affairs... Just a thought...

/B


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: Jon Stebbins on May 29, 2011, 08:39:07 AM

Perhaps Murry had an affair with Jo Ann? She used to sit between Murry and Audree in his car, remember? Perhaps Murry and Jo Ann went to England together? Perhaps he gave the boys (because someone found out about the affair) that money to "shut up or else..." He was a violent man and the boys were afraid of him. And after all, this was 1961 and you wouldn't want people to learn about such affairs... Just a thought...

/B
Is this a joke? Hard to tell because its so entirely not funny. Jo Ann hated Murry. She hid from him so as not to have to see him.


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: Cam Mott on May 29, 2011, 08:49:33 AM
I think some ambitious person should organize all of these quotes [not paraphrases] by person by trip location in chronological order of when they were stated. Just a suggestion [for someone else to do ;-)].


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: Ian on May 29, 2011, 08:59:43 AM
Just to clear up a thing or two asked earlier in the thread.  The Dec 21 1963 app in Sacramento that was taped for the Concert LP (and combined with the Aug 1 1964 show to make the finished album) was Brian's first app in Sacramento.  The BBs did an interview for The Sacramento Union prior to the show in which they noted that the Dec app would be Brian's first in Sacramento-because he had busy with recordings on their two previous trips there.  So to answer an earlier question there is proof that he was not at the Sept 14 1963 app.   That being said-Bgas never answered where the proof was that the photo is from 9/28/63 Cow Palace with Dee Dee Sharp.  That would be news-since I believe DM recalled Brian being at those big shows in late Sept 63.  Maybe that photo is really from June 63-when we know that the BBs did a Hawaiian tour with Al in place of Brian.
-Also wanted to throw out there this tidbit:  In a Nov 1964 Disc & Music Echo interview-while staying at the Hilton in London-Carl notes that HIS PARENTS HAD BEEN TO ENGLAND BEFORE AND TOLD HIM TO VISIT A BUNCH OF SIGHTS IF HE HAD TIME.  Now this doesn't mean that their visit was in Sept 61 but it is interesting to note that the Wilsons had been in the UK once without their kids.  Hard to imagine that they could have left the kids alone much earlier than 1961-without children's welfare agencies getting involved.


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: c-man on May 29, 2011, 09:38:39 AM
I think some ambitious person should organize all of these quotes [not paraphrases] by person by trip location in chronological order of when they were stated. Just a suggestion [for someone else to do ;-)].

Great idea...I myself am up to my ears with other things at the moment, but I think it's a good idea for someone here to take on that assignment.  Be sure to include the Carl quote that Ian mentions above, about his parents have been to England before.  Also the Dennis radio interview from late '77 where he says the band began when his folks went to Europe.  Now that AGD has uncovered Murry's quote referencing a three-week trip, I think we can be more certain than ever that it was a three-week trip to England/Europe, and that the Mexico City jaunt, if it actually happened, was a different trip (possibly around the same time, which is why it sticks out in the memories of some of the principals).


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on May 29, 2011, 10:14:54 AM
Just to clear up a thing or two asked earlier in the thread.  The Dec 21 1963 app in Sacramento that was taped for the Concert LP (and combined with the Aug 1 1964 show to make the finished album) was Brian's first app in Sacramento.  The BBs did an interview for The Sacramento Union prior to the show in which they noted that the Dec app would be Brian's first in Sacramento-because he had busy with recordings on their two previous trips there.  So to answer an earlier question there is proof that he was not at the Sept 14 1963 app.   That being said-Bgas never answered where the proof was that the photo is from 9/28/63 Cow Palace with Dee Dee Sharp.  That would be news-since I believe DM recalled Brian being at those big shows in late Sept 63.  Maybe that photo is really from June 63-when we know that the BBs did a Hawaiian tour with Al in place of Brian.
-Also wanted to throw out there this tidbit:  In a Nov 1964 Disc & Music Echo interview-while staying at the Hilton in London-Carl notes that HIS PARENTS HAD BEEN TO ENGLAND BEFORE AND TOLD HIM TO VISIT A BUNCH OF SIGHTS IF HE HAD TIME.  Now this doesn't mean that their visit was in Sept 61 but it is interesting to note that the Wilsons had been in the UK once without their kids.  Hard to imagine that they could have left the kids alone much earlier than 1961-without children's welfare agencies getting involved.

Murry was definitely in Sweden in 1962 on a promo visit. Also, in late 1961, Brian was 19.


Title: Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961
Post by: Carrie Marks on May 29, 2011, 11:13:51 AM
I believe DM recalled Brian being at those big shows in late Sept 63. 

This is a case where David's memories were slotted into what we knew to be true at the time.  His memory includes being in San Francisco at a pre-show dinner with a bunch of  TV & movie stars and Brian chugged and entire bottle of champagne and then threw up on stage during the first song.  He also remembers playing the Cow Palace.  You take a SF memory w/ Brian and a known date at the Cow Palace and assumptions were made.

However, Bgas has a program from a fund raiser in San Francisco that has all the same stars David remembers being at the pre-show dinner, so its quite likely his memory w/ Brian was on this date, not the Cow Palace.