The Smiley Smile Message Board

...smoke over the years? Is it really true that it was a '4 pack a day' habit (ascribed to messrs. Doe and Tobler)? If that's 80 fags, each burning for 10 minutes, that makes for 13 hrs. It's a day job! Really?  :o

gotta be something like that.   just hearing the state of his voice back then

I'm curious how much marijuana he used to smoke.  I remember that Rolling Stone article back during the Landy years where he said he took the occasional drag.  I wonder if even today he smokes a little pot, but doesn't make it public because he has young kids.  It's funny though, in the Beautiful Dreamer film, he doesn't denounce it at all and even has a smile on his face when describing some of the effects. 

Yes, he smoked a helluva lot, both cigarettes and dope. And shovel fulls of coke (not the drink). Heroin didn't do anything for him. Undeluted acid took away some brain cells.

I witnessed some of it first hand in the mid-70's. I'm gladder than hell he isn't into it anymore.

I know this has been debated heatedly in the past but does anybody really believe much of Brian's mental health deterioration was NOT caused through drug taking? I'm of the opinion it was probably ingrained within him from the day he was born that he would suffer mental health problems as it did run in his family but I also strongly feel that his LSD experimentation would be like pouring gasoline on an already burning flame.

 If you are the kind of person who is self conscious and inscure about themselves than acid is THE LAST thing in the world you want to be messin' with.

Someone said that they saw Brian looking "pretty relaxed" somewhere recently (last few years maybe) and specifically mentioned a joint as a possible explanation for it. Seems unlikely to me, especially if it was a show. I can't imagine anyone in Brian's band enjoying a smoke before a show. Jeff would come down like hell on them with the gospel.


In my experience these things seem to go hand in hand. I don't feel that any drug has done anything permanent to my brain or body unless it's entirely unnoticeable. My brain seems to return to the same exact way it's been functioning my entire life. I could be in the most f***ed up state and yet, once the drug wears off, and I get some rest, drink lots of water and so on... everything settles again. But I feel that with continued drug use, certain underlying qualities certainly start bubbling up. I guess it just pushes you in whatever direction you're already leaning. I've said a lot about Brian and drugs and I do suspect that his psychedelic use probably did him more good than harm - which can be gleamed from his attitude towards them. He's always been pro-psychedelics even while saying they f***ed him up. Brian is turned on, he speaks like he's turned on, he's pro-psychedelics. Besides, "brain damage" is a bit ambiguous. Didn't Brian write California Girls on acid? Sounds like some brain damage can be quite useful to human beings once in a while...

Coke perhaps did lasting damage to his voice (deviated septum, etc). And the smokes didn't help.

Most other drugs were self-medicating or used for "creative" purposes (he loves his uppers).

The real damage was done by prescription anti-psychotics in the late 80s and early 90s.

some claim Brian was never the same after being treated with Thorazine... that was like '69 or '70.

and what about electro-shock therapy? did he get any of that wonder drug?  :-\

Thorazine is an elephant tranquilizer!  I never heard or read that he did that. But he was still pretty messed up even in 1969. The story of Phil Volk of the Raiders witnessing Brian by himself outside a concert venue climbing up a hill and slip sliding away over and over and just acting and saying things crazy. Marilyn was there and came out to console him.

I still can't figure out why they didn't seek ongoing professional help for him, even in the late 60's. Then finally Marilyn started doing something about it in late '75- early '76.

I read recently where Brian may have exhibited signs of depression even back in high school.

Depression. Tardive Schizophrenia. It's not a good thing.

Quote me some studies on "permanent" damage done by anti-psychotics?  Other than tardive dyskinesia I can't come up with any evidence.  As a physician I've been working with or around these medications for years.  Most of the issues are organic mental illness, an abusive childhood, and illicit drug use.  I think he has schizoaffective disorder, ie. depression with psychotic features.

Oh wow, a depressed teenager!  ::)

I believe that is the official diagnosis, yes. And that depression apparently has some bipolar-ish features.


Well, what if the doses are super-sized and combined with other medications he shouldn't have been given? I don't think studies would be conducted on outright misuse of meds, and that was partly what was happening with Brian toward the end of the Landy years.

I suppose, alternately, that the somewhat downbeat demeanor we've seen from Brian since Landy left has been due to the use of some sort of mild sedative given to him before an interview or other stressful situations, rather than any permanent damage.

Brian has said he used a lot of alcohol for a period of time.  That and stimulants..coke and amphetamines, go hand in hand with a lot of  cigarette smoking.  Even some pot smokers follow a smoke with tobacco....double trouble to the throat and lungs.  He is in amazingly good voice these days given his past.

I think his drug of choice during '66-'67 was hash. Anybody that already has emotional/depression issues and does a healthy amount of any kind of drug is more than likely going to suffer some consequences. The guy thought a movie was made specifically to screw with him. That isn't healthy behavior.

Landy was dosing him with Thorazine by the bike pump full 1982-91, with a light frosting of uppers when he had to 'perform' for the media. That's mostly why Brian is how he is today, and the break from Landy came just in time - another four, five years and he really would have been a drooling vegetable.

mmmm american spirit perique blend tobacco following a smoking session......

I really and truly believe that when it comes to pot, hash and even LSD -- which Brian did maybe a small handful of times, according to everyone I talked to who knew him back in those days -- you just don't see any longterm psychological effects, bad, good or otherwise. To the extent that Brian boozed it up, snorted mountains of coke, smoked endless cigs, etc., what we're really talking about is a guy with profound, but untreated emotional problems. Give the guy access to rational psychiatric help and there ends his need to self-medicate.

And why didn't Marilyn, et. al get him that kind of sustained treatment in the '70s? Maybe because they didn't want to admit to themselves that their resident genius had gone off the deep end? Or maybe because it's so hard for any family to admit that about one of its members? Particularly when they all come from hard-working, blue-collar, up-by-the-bootstraps kind of perspective? I'm sure that no one in the Hawthorne of the '50s would admit to seeing a psychologist to deal with their problems. Are you kidding? Just kick ass! Don't back down from that wave! Kick ass! KICK ASS!

I keep seeing this "small handful of times" type of dismissal of Brian's use of psychedelics and stuff like pot, but it seems to me that he used them more than a "small handful of times". Obviously I wasn't there / haven't spoken to anyone who was there / but it seems more likely to me that Brian Wilson, hip guy in the scene, could get whatever drugs he wanted, as often as he wanted, and I simply cannot imagine Brian regulating his use during those times.

To me, "a small handful of times" suggests like... dabbling a few times, never getting into it much. But isn't this Brian with the tent in his living room where Marilyn blew smoke into? Off the top of my head I count way more than three times that Brian used LSD, just based on stories like the one about their Lei'd in Hawaii performance.

What I think really happened is that Brian had a few really stand out trips on acid, and those are the only ones he speaks about, much like anyone who has used these substances often - you speak about the really good times or the really bad times, never the in between.

I believe PAC is referring specifically to LSD when he said "a small handful of times."

And in multiple interviews with folks from the time, that seems to be true. Maybe as little as once.

On the other hand, there was a lot of pot around, and he used uppers all the time.

So Brian started smoking pot around 1965, right? And Marilyn and Murry knew about it. And then right around that time he was given acid from Lauren Scwartz. I've read one excuse........uh, reason why Marilyn, the closest one to him, didn't seek help was because she was so young. That she didn't know any better. Around 17 or 18 Marilyn was at the time, right? What about the rest of the family, especially when the Surf's Up album was being recorded and Brian stayed upstairs in his room most of the time in the same house! Then right after Murry died in '73 he went to bed for a couple of years! What the hell took so long for family and friends admit there was something wrong?? That ain't normal! The reclusiveness was so severe that Landy had to coax him outta his dark bedroom closet with what, an hour's worth of conversation first?

Circa 1966 - "Denny, you got any hash joints?"

While it's true LSD didn't cause his mental condition, it did act as a catalyst. A trigger for these sorts of mental illnesses can be an extreme emotional experience. A death in the family could set it off for example.

However, schizoaffective disorder can be managed quite well with medication. The person is given an anti-psychotic and an anti-depressant (the anti-depressant is needed to control the former, as it can exacerbate suicidal tendencies by itself). I have a friend with the same condition. you wouldn't be able to tell anything is wrong with him. The delusions and paranoia are controlled very well.

What we see in Brian today is mainly the result of Landy's abuse, as Andrew pointed out.

Does Brian still hear the devil talking to him and does he still see him in the showerhead?

I can shoot you down with that "only once" acid thing right now.

1. "Are you feeling the acid yet?"

2. Tripping in Hawaii

3. California Girls

4. On the beach figures out how Good Vibrations should go

5. Fire meltdown trip

Those are five separate LSD trips that I count and there are probably countless others if one reads inbetween the lines. If Brian's giving the guys acid at the STUDIO, how much is he using in the privacy of his home and with friends? It's worth considering. Sure you could say he gave them acid to capture a true spiritual feeling in Our Prayer. You could also say he was just so into acid like many people that he was using it frequently and getting the band on it too.

I think it is also important to keep in mind that mental illness was more stigmatised in the '60s and '70s than it is today (and don't get me wrong, it definitely still is but it has at least improved since those points). Brian Wilson obviously had schizophrenia and depression, and perhaps everyone knew that something was wrong with Brian but pretended otherwise for whatever reason. Maybe his drug use was acceptable to them because it helped keep his illnesses under control for a time and they could think he was "normal". Ostensibly he knew himself that something was wrong with him but, similarly, it was uncouth at the time to admit such things and certainly unheard of when you're a public figure as famous as Brian Wilson of The Beach Boys. I think the social milieu of the time period(s) that Brian Wilson had his illnesses and could have treated them before he became significantly worse dovetails with his drug use and to curb the former, I suggest, may have lessened his great need for the latter.

One significant reason why families tend to ignore members with mental problems is because treatment often includes themselves - the families are often very much a part of the problem and obviously Murry etc was for Brian. Helping Brian way back then may have meant a large scale intervention sort of thing where everyone comes together to work it all out. It's difficult. Everyone is innocent. It's always someone else's fault. No one wants to admit their mistakes. Just let it be, maybe he'll be ok... that seems to have been the prevalent attitude.

With treatment hallucinations are minimal and the voices are not as frequent. But they're still there. The difference being that with treatment he knows they are the product of his illness. Without it, the delusions erode any grasp with reality, making it hard to distinguish which is which.

if you've taken a fairly large dose of LSD or magic mushrooms before you may have experienced times where it's hard to tell what is and what isn't real. I can't imagine how unbearable it must be to have that everyday. What a nightmare.

There's a transcript from a court case Brian was involved in several years ago where they detailed the voices he hears. one is his father, the other is Phil Spector and the third I can't recall. I will try and find that transcript again. it was interesting because in the case, the Judge was concerned with Brian's behaviour and as a result the defense listed the details of his illness.

With all due respect to So Cold and everyone else, I think it's really a slippery slope to try to posit a logical this-because-of-that kind of narrative about the relationship between Brian's drug use and his mental illness. I agree that LSD is a powerful drug that can do wack stuff to your consciousness if you do a lot of it. But the friends/companions I spoke to who spent a lot of time with him at the height of BW's mid-to-late 60s drug moment, were unanimous in their opinions that BW barely ever took LSD. He dabbled, maybe a small handful of times, and that was it, according to everyone from Loren Schwartz to VDP to Michael Vosse and a few more folks I'm not remembering off the top of my head right now.

It's really fun and easy to blame drugs for mental illness, because it serves as such an easy way for family/friends to not come to terms with the far more ugly reality of emotional illness. But our society is particularly blind when it comes to treating the mentally ill, so I guess it's not surprising.

I was not blaming his mental illness on anything he did or anyone else did [to him] -- it's definitely not his fault, and he'd have depression and schizoaffective disorder whether he did drugs, or whether Murry was an butthole, or not. I was merely suggesting that he might have done less drugs if he had been properly treated in the 1960s and '70s when it became more apparent that something was wrong with him. This obviously is predicated on the idea that some of the amount of drugs he did was done out of a desire for self-medication which I don't know and could be wrong about. It is obviously very easy to say he is mentally ill because of his drug use, but I do not think that is accurate and it is also offensive (for that would be blaming the victim). I agree with you that he should have gone to a psychiatrist of some kind too so that he could get his emotional (familial/personal/etc.) problems sorted out -- hell, he could go now; it's never too late to get therapy!

One thing that has to be taken into account is the fact that LSD back in the 1960's was supposedly several times more powerful than it is today. I have read that the LSD of today contains only a certain amount of "pure" LSD(I'm not sure of the technical terms for the "ingredients"). and it's usually mixed with other chemicals. So even if Brian only did it once at the absolute minimum, it still could have done damage, considering his family's mental health history.

Brian said he started hearing voices a couple of weeks after his first LSD trip. I certainly don't think LSD caused his illness, but was merely the catalyst. If you have the condition dormant it can only take one trip to set it off.

If he never touched LSD his condition still could have developed, especially given the pressures he faced.

And Jay, it's true LSD today has a much lower purity than it did in the 60s, unfortunately.

I believe the third voice was Danny Hutton.

This is somewhat true - there are very few chemicals which have the potency that LSD does, the potency of which enables a strong hit to be contained on a bit of blotter paper. The only other ones with similar effects to LSD are chemical analogues like LSA, which is weaker than LSD from what I understand. However there is still powerful acid out there... so I hear from people who do that sort of thing, which I never ever would, if any law enforcement officers are reading this.

"LSD flashbacks" are a big canard in our culture. As most of you probably know by now, they are simply the same sort of flashbacks that happen to people when they've had a traumatic event, like PTSD (or shell-shock as it used to be called.) Many people still think that LSD stays in your spinal fluid for years and this can cause flashbacks. This is complete and utter bullshit. People who had bad trips tend to remember them and sometimes have flashbacks for the same reasons that people with other traumatizing experiences do.

However, in someone with a propensity for mental illness, specifically disorders along the lines of schizophrenia et. al, psychedelic drugs like LSD, Psilocybin and even Marijuana/Hash, all of which are benign when it comes to permanent physical effects*, can precipitate a nervous breakdown and exacerbation of the mental illness.

It's also worth noting that people with schizoaffective disorders and bipolar disorder, typically start to feel the effects of their disease in their late teens/early-to-mid twenties. Interestingly, patients with schizophrenia have been found to have a much easier life after the age of sixty, due to changes in brain chemistry... so if they can make it past the big 6-0, their disease becomes more manageable. Sound like someone we know?

As for the changes in Brian's voice, the immense amount of tobacco he smoked is an obvious culprit. Alcohol also hurts the vocal chords and esophagus. Cocaine is very bad for the voice as well; in George Carlin's memoir, he talks about how his doctor in the 70s told him to stop doing cocaine because it made him talk nonstop and anesthetized his vocal cords, causing him to not realize the damage he was causing to his voice. I wouldn't be surprised if amphetamines had a similar effect on Brian, causing him to talk nonstop.

When it comes to brain damage, I agree that the drugs prescribed by Landy in the late 80's likely had a momentous effect on Brian's neurological system. I don't know as much about thorazine and tricyclic antidepressants as other people here likely do, so I will defer to their expertise.

It is worth noting, however, that observers in several cases noted Brian having a nonstop tremor in one of his legs in the late 1970s/early 1980s. This is the period when he would walk around the pool constantly, smoking cigarette after cigarette. Being grotesquely overweight with a poor diet high in fat, smoking cigarettes, and doing insane amounts of amphetamines and cocaine cannot have been good for his blood pressure and circulatory system, which may have led to some brain damage, including possibly some mini-strokes (they sound cute, don't they? Well they're not...)

 * Nota bene: marijuana and LSD do not cause brain damage, except the damage from holding your breath and not breathing oxygen in the case of smoked marijuana

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Wait, so Brian really hears Murry, Phil, and Danny in his head?

Someone should make this into a cartoon

Why Danny Hutton? I can understand hearing his dad. I can even understand Phil Spector, but why Danny Hutton?

Maybe he hung out with him too much and assimilated his personality into his own mind.

Just imagine every time something funny happens, Danny Hutton's voice bursts out laughing in your mind...

Even Lauren Schwartz laughs about it in the Brian documentary. To Schwartz, Brian's reaction to it was funny, putting a pillow over his head and later coming out of the room or whatever story it was. Schwartz, laughed about it, like it was no big deal. You know he must know Brian's condition now - has he not taken any responsibility for what the drugs supposedly did to Brian? Assuming the acid had anything to do with causing or exacerbating the problem. And Schwartz even emphasizes during his interview that Brian took undiluted acid, which was obviously stronger back in the 60's.

You can hear Brian call out for "Lauren" during the Rhonda sessions. He and later Hutton were his main connects. And maybe Sly Stone?

I dunno, growing up I always had people say, "Don't do that sh*t!", it'll fry your brain! And I took their word for it after I took it once and saw elephants fly between the tops of telephone poles.

You know, I'm curios to see what an x-ray of Brian's lungs looks like. My dad recently died from the long term effects of smoking. He smoked about two packs a day. Brian supposedly smoked up to five packs each day.

Why should he? Brian was the one that took them.

What'd coke do for him? during the 'cocaine sessions' did he really get inspired by the drug itself?

Everyone hates on Loren but one has to understand it in context.

To him, Brian's initial reaction to LSD probably was hilarious. Why not?

It's fun watching people break out of their minds.

Many people have so much baggage in their minds they have to throw out, like Manson teaching Dennis the dance.

I guess one can lay the blame on Loren for being Brian's Tim Leary, turning him on in that way

Why should he, Jay? Well, if Loren turned Brian onto a drug that permanately f*cked him up, don't you think he should feel a little guilty about it? Just a little bit? Instead of passing it off as no big deal and thinking it's funny?

The whole "blame everybody but Brian" thing gets old quick. Brian's a big boy. He knew what he was doing.

Of course he knew what he was doing! He may not have known to what extent he was screwing his brain up at the time, but he sure loved the pot, the hash, and the coke while he was doing it!  Who cares about the after-affects while you're doing it? Addicts don't give a rats ass about that! They're thinking about where do get some more when it wears off!

To this day, Brian only blames himself for doing the drugs and acknowledges that they did damage. He ain't pointing fingers at anybody. I remember when he was asked once during an interview what he would change or do differently in his life. Without hesitation, he said, "I wish I hadn't done drugs".

NOBODY knew at the time. Not Loren, Not Danny, or Marylin, or anybody. How can you blame somebody for doing something when they themselves didn't know?

That's not what is suggested above by a couple of people, Jay. They suggest that family members knew but were trying to hide it and played it down and didn't want to face it.

I asked Marilyn Wilson once about SMiLE and the main reason for it's demise.  Know what she said?  Drugs.  So obviously she knew!  And she knew at the time.  Brian himself knew one of the main reasons was hash.

Loren does have a slightly unsettling disposition when talking about Brian's first LSD experience, but ultimately I agree with Jay here - Brian was the one who made the choice, and if it hadn't been Loren giving it to him, Brian would have found someone else.  I don't take Loren's laughter about the incident to mean that he thinks what ultimately happened to Brian was funny in any way.  If asked, knowing what he knows now, maybe Loren would regret giving the LSD to Brian.  That wasn't what he was asked though...it always seemed to me that he was laughing only about the incident itself, nothing more (i.e. the inevidable consequences).

As far as the original topic we started with, I think Mr. Carlin (and others) have it right in saying that Brian's drug use exacerbated a problem that was already lying dormant inside him just waiting for a catalyst.  Had everything gone down 40 years later than it did, Brian would have been a lot better off, just because mental illness is much more openly discussed today (not to mention better treated) than it used to be.  Melinda even said in one of Brian's documentaries that if someone today is experiencing problems like Brian had, they would shoot him up to UCLA in a heartbeat and start professional treatment.  Brian just had the unfortunate luck of being born in a time where it wasn't the norm to get somebody in his position the help they needed.  

And wasn't it Murry who warned Brian about the consequences of drugs? He knew what was up. And wasn't it Jardine who knew what Brian was up to when he drove around and around the parking lot during the recording of Good Vibrations? I think I read where Al said he thought maybe that acid had really affected him at that point. They all knew, but maybe at the time they weren't aware of the long term effects....

This may be completely bullshit... but back 'n the day when I was a youngster, in elementary school they showed us some of this stuff, and claimed that if you stop smoking, your lungs return to normal, healthy conditions in a year or two.  That's notwithstanding any disease or whatever you developed, but the people filling my little head with information showed pictures and things showing 'healthy' lungs, then 'bad smoker not healthy lungs', then 'here's those lungs after they stopped smoking' lungs.  It appeared that the lungs are slightly regenerative.  Of course if you developed lung cancer from it you're f***ed, but who knows they could have been lying about all that anways. 

I think that some crap stays in your lungs - but if you cut out smoking altogether and breathe nothing but clean air, your cells will be able to repair and get back some life in them....but this is total speculation, I really have no idea what I'm talking about.

I think Brian's use of drugs became abuse roughly in 1971 or so. I remember Carl saying once that it was during the So Tough sessions that he really realised something was wrong as far as drugs go. Dennis once remembered that 20/20 was the first time he was really worried about Brian mentally. Obviously as early as 1963 when he begain to gain weight and stay home there was something a little wrong.
Btw someone mentioned the Surf's Up sessions. Brian was there semi regularly according to Steve Desper. He even spells out what Brian did in his book with fairly good detail in his book.

I read Brian only took acid a couple of times because it "scared him". The coke abuse was much more rampant. One thing I've always had trouble with is the claim that Brian used to stay in bed doing piles of cocaine in the '70s. The last thing you want to do after a few lines of coke is lie in bed, quite the opposite.

I've been thinking a little more about this.
Brian has had people do horrible things to him but he also did some horrid things to himself. I do genuinely feel sorry for anyone who suffers mental or physical illness. God knows I've seen both up close with the people I care about. One thing I don't excuse though is the drugs. I simply have trouble thinking that Brian would have ever gotten as bad as he was without them. I don't think he ever would have put himself at such peril as far as the people around him (IE Landy) if he hadn't stopped taking care of his health. Had he never drunk or drugged to any great extent I don't know if his life would have been so hard.

I do understand that people were more naive in the sixties. I also understand that most musicians come across dope one way or another. Still I do feel that drugs (of all sorts) hurt the guy and made it that much harder for him. I feel for him but I also feel for all his friends and relatives who had to go through the bad times with him. As far as Marilyn goes she gets a free pardon from me. She was very young and not living in a time where many knew about something mental illness. Brian has some fantastic qualites as a person but he did himself no favors.

I'm not knocking him really but I want to be balanced as far as how I see him. My best friend became a druggie and basically dropped out of life. Rehab hasn't helped much and besides he never had enough people to care about him or the money to get the help Brian eventually got. My friend hears voices and has many smilier problems. I do feel for him but when he began to try to milk me for cash it really strained our friendship. Maybe it's because of him that I hate drugs so much myself. I just know that while he may have had some hard times, he would have pulled through them had he never taken drugs. I feel the same for Brian.

This isn't a pleasant topic, nor one to take lightly. Not everyone will smoke a joint and have a breakdown or drop acid and change forever for the worse but my friend did and so did Brian. It's sad and yes I think Landy hurt Brian far more then he ever did himself, but once again I can't help but thinking that Brian just wasn't the type of guy cut out for drugs. I'm again not passing judgement but I do have to make an honest observation here.

Can we have citations with 4 & 5, please, as your memory has been shown to be in error regarding the Lennon/Macca episode ? I'll spot you the first three, those are documented.


Schwartz's rationale was along the lines of "hell, he'd have taken it anyway, just so happened I was the first to give it to him".  Which of course is both entirely true and at the same time no defence at all.

Actually, wasn't it recently revealed that Brian really didn't stay in bed nearly as much as was previously claimed, that it was more along the lines of him pacing around the house non-stop?

I'm really only going to say this once... Any sort of serious illness is hell. Both in the mind and body. In a way, a mental illness is even worse - at least there's a chance of a cure. I'm speaking from someone who's suffered from schizophrenia and, to some extend, avoidant personality disorder, for years now. It's complete hell. A lot of jobs don't take you, you have to spend a large amount of money on doctor visits, medicine, etc. For Brian, I can imagine it being so much worse. No treatment, becoming addicted to cocaine and nicotine. Losing your appearance, your voice, even some of your mind after a point. And your wife, too.

I personally don't hate drugs. I see them as what they are, tools. Tools of experimentation, of addiction, of casual fun. It really depends on who you are, as a person, to see how you would react to it. Just know this. Drugs simply push you into a direction. A direction you may, or may not have already been heading in.

LOL, and add it as a bonus to the inevitable BWRG DVD.

I feel for Brian or anyone else who has experienced severe mental illness. LSD and speed had a negative effect on me and for months I felt like I was on the brink. I was having lucid dreams and all sorts. Scared the hell out of me although funnily enough there were some up sides as this was the time I rediscovered the Beach Boys via Pet Sounds and a fascination with Brian's psyhcological problems - "Hang On To Your Ego? What the foda's that about?"

Anyway it turned out the only lasting effects were an anxiety disorder that LSD may or may not have contributed to so I was lucky. Anyway It's well documented that Brian's problems were already there, and the drugs may have teased the more severe symptoms out but I agree wholeheartedly that blaming a guy that gave Brian his first trip is misdirected. He does laugh on the doc, and why not?  The anecdote sounds funny to me. My friends recounted my own bad trip shenanigans back to me, and I had to admit, there was a funny side.

That'd be horrible! Hearing, say, Murry telling you to be decent around the house when he's not even there!

I agree.

There was a reason why Brian was at Loren's when he first took LSD. Loren was concerned for Brian. Loren didn't think Brian's personality was suited to drugs and had been deflecting Brian's requests to try stuff but he felt some in Brian's entourage were eager to supply drugs to Brian without much concern for Brian's ability to handle it. I think Loren thought he was reluctantly being responsible. By the time of SMiLE, Loren said he was out of Brian's scene because he felt it had become too "juvenile".

He also said Brian's LSD hit was no more than was usual at the time, something which was much less than I had been led to believe. 125 mics or something, does that sound right? Come on brain.

Anybody else hear different on these issues?

Dunno why I didn't think of this before, but for anyone who says that acid doesn't rewire (or dewire) your brain, I have just two words:

Syd Barrett.

That was me. And Desper was the source of my information. Brian would come down from his room intermittently, but for the most part of the sessions, stayed up in his room.

What exactly are the stories behind #1 and #2? I see them mentioned a lot but never with details. Regarding #1, I find it hard to believe that Brian and some of the guys were actually tripping in the studio while recording/rehearsing My Prayer - unless maybe they were taking half or quarter tabs. Perhaps Brian was posing that question to some visitors who were tripping in the studio?

As for #2, what kind of tripping scene went on in Hawaii in '67, and who was involved? If they'd made plans to do this beforehand, it would square with Bruce's statement that he didn't go there with them because of drugs.

Here's two more: Roky Erickson (although he was "helped" along by thorazine and shock treatments later).

1 - Brian says, very clearly, "can you feel the acid yet ?"  If there was anyone else in the studio, they were being very, very quiet.

2 - According to many disparate sources, there was serious substance abuse by everyone during the 1967 Hawaii trip (Bruce declined to go - the most he's ever said about it was "it was too wierd").

And boy does it show on the recordings that have gotten out.

I have always taken the acid thing during the "Prayer" sessions as one of Brian's incredibly awkward jokes.

I somehow doubt they would all be tripping during recordings for something so complex.

This is interesting -

I tripped last night and the message I got was : I'm insane.

I'm more reclusive than Brian. How come I don't get no help? I had a mental breakdown at a job and then spent the next year tripping every day and ended up practically confined to my bedroom as well. Where's my record deal?


Now that's just rewriting history. Awkward joke? Yeah right. An awkward joke would be : hey Mike, can I borrow your comb?

Maybe it is just me but that "can you feel the acid yet" has always seems strange. To me it doesn't seem to be directed to anyone in the studio judging by the non-reaction. I wonder if it was directed to someone in view in the booth? It doesn't really say Brian is tripping either does it? I don't know, something just doesn't hang right with that comment and its context.

Oh come on... he asks Dennis if he has any more joints! Any MORE joints!!! [before AGD human fact checker storms in... Brian says "do you have any hash joints left? i know u do"

To me it sounds like Brian wanted to get Our Prayer sounding really good, and not just sounding good but FEELING good, and he thought the best way would be to have everyone in the same headspace high and a bit spaced out. Is that really too hard to imagine? It was a vocal session, it's not like Brian is there tripping directing the Wrecking Crew musicians or something. It may have been a couple of hours in an afternoon before hitting the beach or something for all we know.

Plus one listen and my verdict is... all of these guys are at least high.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHTgN_PqHk8

After a closer listen, when Brian asks "feel any acid yet?" i hear what sounds like Carl say "i feel great"

As a side note - anyone else find it strange hearing Mike curse "f***" during this session? I feel about Our Prayer that it's sacred music, "white spiritual sound", and it's strange hearing the mundane human side of it as well like that.

Good point Andrew. In fact such a good point I was going to mention him this morning on the board but dammit I had to get ready for work!!!

Contray to popular myth Syd Barret wasn't taking acid morning, noon and night as most would believe. He took it now and then like most people from that scene by several accounts of people that were close to him around that time.  Isn't that the truly scary thing? That there is just as much chance of you developing psychiatric issues as the result of one trip as you are on a dozen? It is playing Russian Roulette with your mind.

Don't be so quick to jump to conclusions. Even members of Pink Floyd deny that acid was the cause of Syd's problems. Some point to other drugs he used more often - mandrax pills among other things. However it sounds like Syd got HPPD from acid. I saw one of his paintings and it reminded me of HPPD.

Anyone else think that John Lennon might be a good example of a sort of extroverted acid case? He didn't withdraw from public life like Brian & Syd but from what I've read (Goldman  >:D ) he was plenty nuts himself behind closed doors. He just seemed to put on a strong public image of a strong resilient man.

I relate to John in a way. I've read that he was anorexic - and seen a naked photo of him proving it. I'm the same weight - 125lbs 5'11" - and when I read about that it was like reading about myself.

Goldman also related a fun story about how Yoko would pull pranks on John like put cat poop in his path from his room to the kitchen or wherever, so he'd step in it. Oh Yoko, how I love you.

Not even Darian and Nick?

It's a good thing AGD is here to put bullsh*t posts to rest.

One BIG difference is that a pre drugs Syd was by all accounts a friendly, easygoing, confident outgoing kind of guy who came from a very loving home. Compare that with Brian who had an abusive father who gave his son a very negative view of himself deep down.

Yeah, I'm sure that's what made his wife fall for him.


Who's Nick? I'm not familiar with all of them by name. What's the name of the beautiful violin player girl on the SMILE performance DVD? Phone number? AIM handle?

I just don't think any of them would get high and then play music with Brian. I assume they respect him and would not want to involve him in any way with stuff like that if he didn't want to be involved. Sneaking a joint before a BW show seems sort of childish to me. "Quick, before Brian sees us!" It's just lame.

Why does this not surprise me ?

Rule #1 of trying to be a smartass - know your subject. You fail.  ;D

hey man - more to life than memorizing useless facts

True. Suggest you try it some time.

What about the facts of life?

Like honing one's intuition to spot snobby people?

It was ok until Blair got fat.

(http://monetslilies.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2007/11/05/facts_of_life_girls.jpg)

You take the good you take the bad...

Wow, those girls look just like pigs.

Human-Pig hybrids sold to American television?????

It was the 1980s, man! Back in the 1980s it was politically correct to eat meat. :)

Like what? Spending a year tripping every day and confining yourself to your bedroom?

I thought BW was talking to DAnny Hutton, not DW, when he was asking about the joints. Also, during the Prayer thing both Carl and maybe Al or Mike (can't remember) say they feel great etc.

PS all these new kids and their drug talk is cute but kinda played. I don't think anyone around here will be too impressed with your drug stories as most of us (A)been there, done that or (B) think its a pathetic and sad attempt looking for attention or (c) think that stuff is not something worth cluttering up the board with.

Just saying... (he says, waiting for reactionary comebacks)

probably reading and believing anything by Goldman

I just hope he doesn't spend the next year trying to argue with us about drugs.  He's already spent a week and it seems like a year. 

Yeah, Goldman's Lennon book was panned by a whole lot of people, wasn't it?  Insiders and outsiders alike. Goldman lost his credibility a long time ago.  A big thick book with a lotta bull crap.

Ron, I firmly believe he will have far surpassed AGD's 5000 posts mark before the end of the month.  ;D

Reasons why you couldn't know, Mr. Expert:

1. You obviously haven't taken acid.
2. You obviously haven't read much about it aside from exaggerated accounts of rock stars taking acid.
3. If you had taken acid, you'd realize that you should be organizing all of the tour dates and recording sessions on your site into their proper astrological context. You say that we haven't heard any of the vocal takes from some SMiLE sessions, but you never stop to explain that this is because of things like Jupiter was opposing Saturn on the day the BBs recorded the vocals for "Look".

Far too many druggy weirdos around this site at the moment. Quick someone page Mike Love to come and stamp out all this dippy hippy far out nonsense pronto!

 :hat :hat

1 - so you say
2 - as above
3 - if I had the first idea what you were talking about, I'd doubtless have a snappy comeback, but in both instances I don't.

 :lol

Simple yes or no question: have you ever taken acid?

You say I 'obviously' haven't, and who am I to question your omniscience in matters regarding my private life ?

Dada, did you ever take acid in the 60's?  Ever had Window Pane? Microdot? Black acid? Blotter? White Owsley's? Purple Haze? California Sunshine? Orange Barrels?  If not, you don't know s*it from shinola about LSD.

I Love To Say Dada!

Because it's obvious you haven't taken acid. It don't need to be meteorologist to tell if the sun outside my window is shining.

You're being a very intellectually dishonest person right now. I personally have never taken acid. I have taken psychedelic drugs, but not acid. Consequently, you don't see me  going around claiming that acid rewires people's brains, because how the f*** could I know that? Because I had a certain viewpoint indoctrinated in me by the establishment and society from birth? Open your mind. Or am I to really believe that you've read countless books on the subject of acid and have gotten firsthand accounts on the effects from acid users, after which you then came to your conclusions, without bias? You can claim that I can't know if you did, but who are you fooling? Or am I to believe that you may have taken acid, in light of your recent comments? Feel free to prove me wrong. You want to go around pointing the finger when people get BB minutia wrong, but you can't handle it when the shoe is on the other foot.
 
I just feel like you're cut from the same cloth of people who go around constantly calling Brian "tormented", "insane", and etc. You know, the sort of people who don't like Love You or listen to Mt. Vernon and Fairway and think that they know what he SHOULD be doing. And then you have the audacity to wonder why Brian hates interviewers and is scared of his fans. sh*t, he has every right to be.

Drugs are so cool.  Look @ all the great drug addicts we've recently met on THIS board. 

You know I was thinking the other day, what would make the Smile Shop even MORE fun?  Then it hit me!

A couple crackheads!

With this little outburst, you've made it abundantly evident that you've never read a word I've written about Brian, Love You or, indeed, The Beach Boys in toto over the last 30+ years (or indeed, in this forum either). Therefore your opinion and conclusions on these matters is necessarily worthless. Call me names, denigrate my research and writings if you feel you have to but at least have the decency to obtain a basic grasp of the subject in hand.

In the words of the French Soldier, "I don't want to talk to you no more, you empty headed animal food trough wiper. I fart in your general direction. Your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries."

Yes, I think that covers it.  :)

As for the original question/assertion re: LSD, there is no point in replying as if I say "yes" you won't believe me, and if I say "no", you'll crow "told ya so": as for "Or am I to really believe that you've read countless books on the subject of acid and have gotten firsthand accounts on the effects from acid users, after which you then came to your conclusions, without bias?", no, not countless books, but a goodly sampling, and yes, I've gotten first hand accounts and experiences on which I've based my conclusion. It's called "research". There's a reason LSD is illegal, you know.

You've got to be kidding me. I thought your initial post to AGD was a joke. You don't need to have taken the drug to know it screws with ones brain: take your own advice for pities sake: "I don't need to be meteorologist to tell if the sun outside my window is shining."

Society told me LSD was bad for a reason. As AGD points out, it's illegal for a reason. I've seen firsthand (and I'm fairly certain 80% others on this board (possibly, as well as yourself) have) what LSD can do to someone's mind: ie anxiety disorders, panic attacks, yadayada...

why does everyone say merda here.

EDIT:
actually wait there's a thread for this!!

located: http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,8214.msg155818.html#msg155818

And also never mind the fact that it's *none* of our business if you've ever done acid or not. That's not being evasive, that' s just expecting others to mind their own business.




That, however, is not a good argument. Just it being legal or illegal doesn't affect whether or not it's "bad" for you. Alcohol destroys far more lives than weed ever possibly could, yet the former is legal and the latter isn't. Then again, considering race had a huge part to play in it being illegal in the first place...anyway, that's a rant for a different time.

Runaways, it's the word filter.

That's true.


Hallucinogenics, including shrooms, lsd and even cannabis can exacerbate dormant mental conditions. Having said that, if you seriously abuse any drug/drink long enough and you have no genetic predisposition to mental illness, it can still mess you up. However in that instance withdrawing from use completely will eventually help you to recover.

A lot of drug casualties are down to irresponsible use, randomly mixing substances and taking no care in preparing the correct set and setting.
Look at Amsterdam, the only reason they made shrooms illegal was because the tourists would go out there, drink all day, smoke in the cafes, then take some shrooms, without even knowing what they were in for, completely freak out and then end up in the hospital pumped full of valium

The Beach Boys did more to keep me away from drugs then Nancy Regan :angel:. Actually they did scare the hell out of me which is why I've never tried anything except pot once.

Oh crap, I don't particularly like Love You and would be ecstatic if Brian made more Mt.Vernon and Fairway type music. Does that make me a rotten Beach Boys fan?

Apparently so, according to the Olympian Dictat of Dada.

Yeah, to me one of the things that makes the music so wonderful is that there really is something for everyone, and also is so diverse that a large majority of people will not like the entire output. I mean, really, the only other group that had such distinct eras is Fleetwood Mac.

Andrew, I still think you're cool regardless of whether or not you're an acid-tripping hippy.  Rock on!

Very well said. My Fleetwood Mac is incidentally the 67-70 one. I like Kiln House from late 1970 ,too but that's still most of the originals.

I'm gonna be predictable and say "Rumors" does it for me. Also as far as this may stray from the original thread topic I'd just like to state that in the 70's Stevie Nicks was quite possibly the most beautiful woman on the planet and it's little wonder that Brian wrote a song about how much he wanted to shag her.

Has she ever heard the song? If so, what did she think of it? :hat

They should've finished and released it. I think it's a great song and a lot more exciting than most of stuff they released at the time.

which song is this again

This one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOB4dPwTtIc