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Smiley Smile Stuff => General On Topic Discussions => Topic started by: OneEar/OneEye on February 09, 2010, 09:47:11 AM



Title: Carl & The Passions "So Tough" / Pet Sounds
Post by: OneEar/OneEye on February 09, 2010, 09:47:11 AM
I am wondering about the decision to pair "So Tough" with Pet Sounds.  Whose decision was it?  And why Pet Sounds?  Why not something else?  Was it a random pairing, or was there some specific reasoning behind it?  We're they attempting to compare the two?  Did they think people would want to purchase Pet Sounds and that this would help sales of "So Tough"? 
Thanks.


Title: Re: Carl & The Passions \
Post by: Jason on February 09, 2010, 09:49:15 AM
I've heard it was either the band or Warners who wanted it that way as the band retained the rights to the 1966-69 LPs. Note that Warners later reissued the 1967-69 LPs as two-fers in 1974.

And if anyone thought Pet Sounds paired with So Tough would help sales of the latter, it's doubtful, as all the reviews for the album basically praised Pet Sounds at the expense of the featured LP.


Title: Re: Carl & The Passions \
Post by: Roger Ryan on February 09, 2010, 09:54:59 AM
Given the success of SURF'S UP the previous year, I'm sure Warners viewed CATP as a relatively weak follow-up in need of an added push. At the same time, those who just wanted to buy PET SOUNDS again would get a new Beach Boys album as a bonus! PET SOUNDS, of course, was reissued on it's own by Warners around the time of the SMILEY SMILE / FRIENDS & WILD HONEY / 20-20 twofers (yep, that's how they were issued).


Title: Re: Carl & The Passions \
Post by: Mr. Cohen on February 09, 2010, 10:19:37 AM
I always liked Carl & the Passions. It was an inspiration to Elton John, which counts for something. I always felt like "Honky Cat" was the spiritual brother of "You Need a Mess of Help". Elton was probably in that funky château snorting cocaine off of a renaissance inspired ornate end table writing "Funky Cat" at the same time Brian was in his Bel Air mansion snorting cocaine off of a rubber ducky as he perfected "You Need a Mess of Help". Too troubled souls at a piano, and unfortunately the charts could handle only one.


Title: Re: Carl & The Passions \
Post by: Jason on February 09, 2010, 10:33:42 AM
The band also brought the rights to Smile with them as well, and it was assumed that it would either be released as a separate LP or as a two-fer with Holland in 1973 - note that Warners had a stipulation in their contract saying that if a Smile master wasn't delivered by January 1, 1973, $50,000 would be deducted from the next album's advance.


Title: Re: Carl & The Passions \
Post by: Mike's Beard on February 09, 2010, 10:34:08 AM
I thought it was a strange pairing in the sense that realistically the 2 lps were done by two nearly completely different sets of people.  PS was predominately BW and the Wrecking Crew  with the other BB's as vocal guests, while ST was the Flame era line up with not much input by Brian.  I mean he's physically present on what?  3-4 songs? Purely a sales ploy which was doomed and must have knocked the groups confidence  somewhat.


Title: Re: Carl & The Passions \
Post by: OneEar/OneEye on February 09, 2010, 10:49:50 AM
So Warners plan was to pair Holland with Smile?   Was perhaps pairing PS with ST a way of getting the public ready for that?   
ST is a great album, some weird flow issues maybe, but beautiful songs.   


Title: Re: Carl & The Passions \
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on February 09, 2010, 10:55:59 AM
The band also brought the rights to Smile with them as well, and it was assumed that it would either be released as a separate LP or as a two-fer with Holland in 1973 - note that Warners had a stipulation in their contract saying that if a Smile master wasn't delivered by January 1, 1973, $50,000 would be deducted from the next album's advance.

May 1st, not January 1st.

And it wasn't... and they did.  ;D


Title: Re: Carl & The Passions \
Post by: Jason on February 09, 2010, 11:23:54 AM
http://www.esquarterly.com/bellagio/unreleased.html

"...nonetheless, when the master wasn't delivered to Reprise by January 1st, 1973, $50,000 was deducted from the band's next advance, as per the contract signed in 1970." - Andrew G. Doe

Update, perhaps? :)


Title: Re: Carl & The Passions \
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on February 09, 2010, 11:57:38 AM
http://www.esquarterly.com/bellagio/unreleased.html

"...nonetheless, when the master wasn't delivered to Reprise by January 1st, 1973, $50,000 was deducted from the band's next advance, as per the contract signed in 1970." - Andrew G. Doe

Update, perhaps? :)

Not an update - a correction.  ;D

FWIW, the memo sent by Steve Love to the rest of the band re: this very topic was dated march 8, 1973.


Title: Re: Carl & The Passions \
Post by: Mr. Cohen on February 09, 2010, 12:04:27 PM
Seeing as how this question doesn't deserve it's own topic, but it kind of fits here, I'm going to ask everyone: what's your favorite song off of Pet Sounds? Not favorites, but favorite. I'll have to go with "Caroline No".


Title: Re: Carl & The Passions \
Post by: Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again on February 09, 2010, 01:07:22 PM
"That's Not Me" is my fave! My fave Mike vocal, fave lyrics, and it doesn't hurt that actual Beach Boys (Brian included) are playing on the track. Gives it something special in the "feel" catagory.

I LOVE Carl And The Passions!

To me it sounds like the debut album by some kick-ass band who just happened to have Carl as a singer/guitarist, Dennis as a singer/musician and none other than Brian Wilson contributing songs and singing (somewhere on there) and Mike Love/Al Jardine making guest appearances!! I think this is why it stills sounds so fresh! I mean, what's wrong with a really loose shambolic Beach Boys album existing anyway? These guys were touring hard at this time, right? Lots of bands toss albums together while touring. Think of it as The Beach Boys "New Adventures In Hi-Fi" or something!


Title: Re: Carl & The Passions \
Post by: OneEar/OneEye on February 09, 2010, 01:08:38 PM
Seeing as how this question doesn't deserve it's own topic, but it kind of fits here, I'm going to ask everyone: what's your favorite song off of Pet Sounds? Not favorites, but favorite. I'll have to go with "Caroline No".

It's a tough choice, but I'd pick You Still believe In Me.


Title: Re: Carl & The Passions \
Post by: OneEar/OneEye on February 09, 2010, 01:11:22 PM

I LOVE Carl And The Passions!

To me it sounds like the debut album by some kick-ass band who just happened to have Carl as a singer/guitarist, Dennis as a singer/musician and none other than Brian Wilson contributing songs and singing (somewhere on there) and Mike Love/Al Jardine making guest appearances!!

Might this album be the most "Wilson brothers" of all?


Title: Re: Carl & The Passions \
Post by: phirnis on February 09, 2010, 01:23:37 PM
Seeing as how this question doesn't deserve it's own topic, but it kind of fits here, I'm going to ask everyone: what's your favorite song off of Pet Sounds? Not favorites, but favorite. I'll have to go with "Caroline No".

That would have to be "I Know There's an Answer". I love each and every single note on this album, yet this is the song I find myself coming back to most frequently. The overall sound of the backing track is just outstanding, I think the arrangement might be among BW's most successfull ever. Gotta love that mesmerizing bass harmonica sound.


Title: Re: Carl & The Passions \
Post by: adamghost on February 09, 2010, 10:49:43 PM
I gotta ask if Carl wasn't primarily a keyboard player in the CATP/Holland era.....not a statement, just a question.  What did he play guitar on CATP?  I'd say "Marcella" for sure, "Mess" very probably.  Not sure if there is guitar on "All This Is That."

For keyboards, "This Is That" for sure.  "Mess" is a likely candidate for Carl on piano.  I think the SOP for the Ricky-Blondie tracks was for them to cut as a three piece: Ricky on drums and Carl/Blondie on piano/bass.  I don't think it's Carl on piano for "Here She Comes" but it could definitely be him on "Brother."  It wouldn't surprise me if some of the keyboards on "He Come Down" are Carl...the organ countermelody about midway through the song doesn't sound like Brian to me. 

Thoughts?


Title: Re: Carl & The Passions
Post by: ♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇 on February 09, 2010, 11:46:04 PM
Quote
Elton was probably in that funky château snorting cocaine off of a renaissance inspired ornate end table writing "Funky Cat" at the same time Brian was in his Bel Air mansion snorting cocaine off of a rubber ducky as he perfected "You Need a Mess of Help".

Epic.


Title: Re: Carl & The Passions \
Post by: TheLazenby on February 09, 2010, 11:46:36 PM
I love "Here She Comes", because it's a fun contender for a 'guess which band this is' game.  You'd have no idea it came from a BB's album.


Title: Re: Carl & The Passions \
Post by: Loaf on February 10, 2010, 01:48:33 AM
I always thought Here She Comes sounds like something The Band would have done at that time.

The drums are mixed a bit too prominent for my taste, but they are good drums.


Title: Re: Carl & The Passions \
Post by: Nicko on February 10, 2010, 02:17:20 AM

I LOVE Carl And The Passions!

To me it sounds like the debut album by some kick-ass band who just happened to have Carl as a singer/guitarist, Dennis as a singer/musician and none other than Brian Wilson contributing songs and singing (somewhere on there) and Mike Love/Al Jardine making guest appearances!!

Might this album be the most "Wilson brothers" of all?

No. There are two Flame songs so it is as much Ricky and Blondie's as it is Dennis's. There are also a couple of TM songs so I would say that credit (or blame) should go to all 7 band members pretty much equally.


Title: Re: Carl & The Passions \
Post by: Dr. Tim on February 10, 2010, 08:23:23 AM
Another reason to own the vinyl original is this two-fer has the best vinyl mastering of Pet Sounds, better than the hastily-pressed Capitol original, made while the master tape was still fairly young.  (And they still had it!)  As we know the post-2000 vinyls all come from digital copies of one sort or another.  There is something to be said for some of these original (or somewhat original in this case) pressings, which (properly cared for) will always sound closest to what the brand-new masters sounded like.   A true vinylphile can tell when a supposedly "audiophile" LP reissue was made from a digital safety, i.e., the recent Rolling Stones vinyl reissues.


Title: Re: Carl & The Passions \
Post by: Jason on February 10, 2010, 08:25:44 AM
The 1972 press of Pet Sounds with CATP is good except for one major hiccup.

Listen to Wouldn't It Be Nice. Mono, mono, mono, until the bridge, then lovely duophonic!


Title: Re: Carl & The Passions \
Post by: Mike's Beard on February 10, 2010, 10:00:31 AM

I LOVE Carl And The Passions!

To me it sounds like the debut album by some kick-ass band who just happened to have Carl as a singer/guitarist, Dennis as a singer/musician and none other than Brian Wilson contributing songs and singing (somewhere on there) and Mike Love/Al Jardine making guest appearances!!

Code:
Might this album be the most "Wilson brothers" of all?

I'm sure I have read on here from AGD no less that Brian was very heavily involved in "He came Down".  That shocked me to read the first time but a couple of listens to it and you can see (or should that read hear?) his fingerprints all over the track.  The complex vocal arrangement screams "BW" and we know even now he sings quite alot on it too!  I imagine the gospel organ and piano was his doing as well.  Great song.  Dodgy lyrics but great song!

I think "So Tough" may just be the most underrated album "the boys" ever made.


Title: Re: Carl & The Passions \
Post by: Sheriff John Stone on February 10, 2010, 10:09:26 AM
I think "So Tough" may just be the most underrated album "the boys" ever made.

Gets my vote. :police:


Title: Re: Carl & The Passions \
Post by: OneEar/OneEye on February 10, 2010, 04:41:20 PM
I think "So Tough" may just be the most underrated album "the boys" ever made.

Gets my vote. :police:

Mine as well.  This one has really grown on me over time.   


Title: Re: Carl & The Passions \
Post by: The infamous Baldwin Organ on February 11, 2010, 06:27:25 AM
It's an album that I really enjoy listening to in the car, for what reason I'm not quite sure.


Title: Re: Carl & The Passions \
Post by: The Heartical Don on February 11, 2010, 06:48:22 AM
Another reason to own the vinyl original is this two-fer has the best vinyl mastering of Pet Sounds, better than the hastily-pressed Capitol original, made while the master tape was still fairly young.  (And they still had it!)  As we know the post-2000 vinyls all come from digital copies of one sort or another.  There is something to be said for some of these original (or somewhat original in this case) pressings, which (properly cared for) will always sound closest to what the brand-new masters sounded like.   A true vinylphile can tell when a supposedly "audiophile" LP reissue was made from a digital safety, i.e., the recent Rolling Stones vinyl reissues.

My idea. I have the Pet Sounds version that came with CATP, but without CATP, if you catch my drift. It was released as a single LP, with brown in stead of the familiar green, and capitals in stead of Cooper Black. The sound is quite brilliant, pure punchy mono. I am happy that I played it not that often.


Title: Re: Carl & The Passions \
Post by: DefMode66 on February 14, 2010, 09:58:16 AM
Carl and the Passions So Tough was the 2nd album of a two album release of Pet Sounds in '72 and consists of eight tracks. Gone is Bruce Johnston and joined are Ricky Fatarr and Blondie Chaplin. Still So Tough managed to hit #50 in the US and #25 in the UK.

You Need a Mess of Help to Stand Alone" (Brian Wilson/Jack Rieley) – 3:27
Features Carl Wilson on lead vocals
"Here She Comes" (Ricky Fataar/Blondie Chaplin) – 5:10
Features Ricky Fataar and Blondie Chaplin on lead vocals
"He Come Down" (Brian Wilson/Al Jardine/Mike Love) – 4:41
Features Mike Love, Blondie Chaplin, Al Jardine, and Carl Wilson on lead vocals
"Marcella" (Brian Wilson/Tandyn Almer/Jack Rieley) – 3:54
Features Carl Wilson and Mike Love on lead vocals
"Hold On Dear Brother" (Ricky Fataar/Blondie Chaplin) – 4:43
Features Blondie Chaplin on lead vocals
"Make It Good" (Dennis Wilson/Daryl Dragon) – 2:36
Features Dennis Wilson on lead vocals
"All This Is That" (Alan Jardine/Carl Wilson/Mike Love) – 4:00
Features Carl Wilson, Alan Jardine and Mike Love on lead vocals
"Cuddle Up" (Dennis Wilson/Daryl Dragon) – 5:30
Features Dennis Wilson on lead vocals

Singles
"You Need a Mess of Help to Stand Alone" b/w "Cuddle Up" (Brother 1091), 15 May 1972
"Marcella" b/w "Hold On Dear Brother" (Brother 1101), 26 June 1972) US #110
Carl and the Passions – "So Tough" is now paired on CD with Holland.

Carl and the Passions – "So Tough" (Brother/Reprise 2MS 2083) hit #50 in the US during a 20 week chart stay. It reached #25 in the UK.



Title: Re: Carl & The Passions \
Post by: Jason on February 14, 2010, 12:37:51 PM
Well, Bruce isn't in the band picture on the LP, but he's definitely on there. He was a member of the band until April 1972, before which all of the recording had been done.


Title: Re: Carl & The Passions \
Post by: TheLazenby on February 15, 2010, 05:49:13 PM
Hearing "Here She Comes" and the unreleased "Hard Time", I'm REALLY starting to wish they kept Blondie and Rikki around longer.  Those are, in my eyes, the best and most hit-worthy songs to come out of the 'Beach Flame' period.

I never thought much of Rikki before learning of his participation in the Beach Boys - he was just "that guy that played Stig in the Rutles."  But he definitely seems to have musical merit.


Title: Re: Carl & The Passions \
Post by: Jason on February 15, 2010, 07:03:26 PM
Hard Times is a great, great track. Only problem, of course, was that, essentially, it was recorded WAY late in the Blondie/Ricky tenure in 1973, long after Holland had come out, so it was pretty much destined to remain unreleased unless they remained in the band longer. Apparently, two versions exist - the one that circulates is a Beach Boys version with Dennis, Carl, and Al performing keys and guitars, with Blondie on lead vocal and guitar (also possibly bass) and Ricky on drums. There's also a version supposedly dating from sometime in 1974 that was just a Blondie/Ricky performance with the two of them splitting instrumental duties. This hasn't gone around to the best of my knowledge. It would certainly be fun to hear.


Title: Re: Carl & The Passions \
Post by: smile-holland on February 16, 2010, 12:08:40 AM
... and this song (Hard Times) was also covered by Rare Bird on their 1973 album "Somebody's Watching". A slower version than the Beach Boys/ Fataar-Chaplin version.



Title: Re: Carl & The Passions \
Post by: The Heartical Don on February 16, 2010, 12:18:22 AM
Sorry, I don't mean to offend, but: I always found Blondie and Rikki 'alien' to the spirit of the Beach Boys. They are good musicians in their own right, for sure; but in the BBs I find them sounding somewhat anonymous.


Title: Re: Carl & The Passions \
Post by: Ganz Allein on February 16, 2010, 04:59:52 AM
Sorry, I don't mean to offend, but: I always found Blondie and Rikki 'alien' to the spirit of the Beach Boys. They are good musicians in their own right, for sure; but in the BBs I find them sounding somewhat anonymous.

I agree.  IMHO "Here She Comes" and "Hold On Dear Brother" don't sound like Beach Boys songs, and they interrupt the flow of CATP with their blandness.  On the other hand, "Leaving This Town" seems to fit on "Holland" because it's a little more interesting melody/chord-wise (although it's somewhat of an Elton John imitation - check out the chord progression and vocal phrasing on the "night is coming round" part).


Title: Re: Carl & The Passions \
Post by: The Heartical Don on February 16, 2010, 05:16:16 AM
Sorry, I don't mean to offend, but: I always found Blondie and Rikki 'alien' to the spirit of the Beach Boys. They are good musicians in their own right, for sure; but in the BBs I find them sounding somewhat anonymous.

I agree.  IMHO "Here She Comes" and "Hold On Dear Brother" don't sound like Beach Boys songs, and they interrupt the flow of CATP with their blandness.  On the other hand, "Leaving This Town" seems to fit on "Holland" because it's a little more interesting melody/chord-wise (although it's somewhat of an Elton John imitation - check out the chord progression and vocal phrasing on the "night is coming round" part).

Good call. I find these songs a bit 'plodding', compared to the usual vivid Beach Boys style. Even the sad and wistful songs of the BBs 'sparkle' in their own way (see much of Pet Sounds, for instance); and the Fataar/Chaplin songs don't.

But others may see it differently.

The Elton John comparison is well-chosen.


Title: Re: Carl & The Passions \
Post by: Mike's Beard on February 16, 2010, 10:38:57 AM
They seemed to me be almost a "group within a group".  They would both sing and play quite prominently on the others guys songs but for their own recordings there seemed to be only a bit of Carl singing here and there with the others nowhere in sight.

*Edit*  Mike's bass vocals on the "Leaving This town" fade out


Title: Re: Carl & The Passions \
Post by: buddhahat on February 16, 2010, 10:42:57 AM
I Love Here She Comes - I was just listening today and was thinking how funky it sounds - great drums on that one!


Title: Re: Carl & The Passions \
Post by: Sam_BFC on February 16, 2010, 11:31:07 AM
I don't mind Hold On Dear Brother at all, the vocals are great 'I want your lo-o-o-ove...'

Aside from their writing ability, I love their vocal contributions anyway.


Title: Re: Carl & The Passions \
Post by: adamghost on February 17, 2010, 01:43:23 PM
Re Bruce on CATP, it's been established his only appearance is as background vocalist on "Marcella."

Re Blondie and Ricky, I think Carl's idea was to get two really super musicians in the lineup.  And in that regard, they really gave the early '70s band a kick in the ass, though it did wind up marginalizing the other members to varying degrees.  I agree that the originals didn't quite fit.  Ricky did a good job sticking to Dennis' basic style in the studio, and while I'm a big fan of that approach, it might not have been the best thing for those songs.  My biggest problem with a lot of HOLLAND is how dull the rhythm section is.


Title: Re: Carl & The Passions \
Post by: Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again on February 17, 2010, 02:02:59 PM
I agree, Adam! And it makes me wonder about the recording process for both CATP and HOLLAND. As far as how developed the songs were when basic tracks were laid down. To my ears, The drums on CATP (especially MARCELLA) sound like they were laid down very early in the process, without much urgency and when Ricky had only a faint idea of what the songs were really all about. Then the other guys come in and pile on all the other insturments, each guy having a better idea of how the songs should sound/feel and giving it a little more, but the dead/plodding/weak drums are still buried under there somewhere and the tracks just don't and won't ever kick! This is a typical problem actually with recording/conceiving songs from the bottom up. However with Hold On Dear Brother and Here She Comes, Blondie and Ricky obviously knew these songs inside and out, therefore the drums kick ass!


Title: Re: Carl & The Passions \
Post by: adamghost on February 18, 2010, 12:28:35 PM
I agree, and the funny thing is, I'm a big fan of Dennis' "stoopid" studio drumming.  I think there's a difference in approach.  Dennis' pocket is so deep that he can play really simply but it establishes a huge groove that you can layer anything over.  Ricky can do the same thing and it just sounds sterile...I think it may just be the difference between a really good drummer laying down a simple beat and sounding bored and a technically mediocre drummer who's really good on a certain type of feel.  When I want the Dennis sound on my own recordings, I play the drums myself -- I can't find anybody else who can play like that. I think it's hard for someone as good as Ricky Fataar to play a straight 4/4 on a song he doesn't know very well and put that much into it. 

The one exception is "Sail On Sailor".  The groove on that is a monster.


Title: Re: Carl & The Passions \
Post by: Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again on February 18, 2010, 01:06:48 PM
That's absolutely right on! All the songs that I know Dennis is playing drums on, just have such feel and groove. And though he usually played simply, (not easy to do, btw) some of his parts are really awesome. I love what he does on Back Home. His fills and build-ups are quite awesome. His intro to In The Still Of The Night is a monster, and check out his pick-ups and transitions on A Casual Look! Pretty cool stuff. Most people would swear it must be Hal Blaine! Him and Ricky playing in unison on It's Ok, with Dennis dropping the beat on the floor tom every other measure while Ricky plays straight, is killer!

I could go on and on!


Title: Re: Carl & The Passions \
Post by: The Heartical Don on February 20, 2010, 02:47:44 AM
That's absolutely right on! All the songs that I know Dennis is playing drums on, just have such feel and groove. And though he usually played simply, (not easy to do, btw) some of his parts are really awesome. I love what he does on Back Home. His fills and build-ups are quite awesome. His intro to In The Still Of The Night is a monster, and check out his pick-ups and transitions on A Casual Look! Pretty cool stuff. Most people would swear it must be Hal Blaine! Him and Ricky playing in unison on It's Ok, with Dennis dropping the beat on the floor tom every other measure while Ricky plays straight, is killer!

I could go on and on!

I agree. Dennis drummed deceptively simple. I like to compare it to the way Keith Richards plays rhythm guitar. Sounds easy, until you try...


Title: Re: Carl & The Passions \
Post by: phirnis on February 20, 2010, 03:53:35 AM
Talking about DW's drumming, I know the BB's 1981 Long Beach concert is not among most fans' favorites, but I have to say I've always loved the high-energy drumming on "School Days", which saved an otherwise admittedly luckluster group performance:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gaJJRTbxvOg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gaJJRTbxvOg)


Title: Re: Carl & The Passions \
Post by: c-man on February 20, 2010, 07:30:16 AM
I always thought Here She Comes sounds like something The Band would have done at that time.

The drums are mixed a bit too prominent for my taste, but they are good drums.

That's caused it was written/produced/probably mixed...by a drummer!  ;)


Title: Re: Carl & The Passions \
Post by: c-man on February 20, 2010, 08:12:56 AM
Like Adam, I'm also very intrigued by the keyboard work on "So Tough" (and "Holland" as well)...but until someone listens to the session tapes and tells us, all we can do is guess, right?  We all know AFM contracts aren't definitive, but they can at least give us an idea of who was present at a given session.  Unfortunately, the ones for "Surf's Up" and "Holland" are obviously "forged" (meaning, they were hastily written up at a later date simply so some paperwork could be sumbitted), however the ones for the "So Tough" sessions seem to be more "authentic" (meaning, reliable to historians such as Adam, AGD, Ian, and myself).  So, here are the personel on the AFMs for each of this album's songs:

BEATRICE FROM BALTIMORE (later retitled YOU NEED A MESS OF HELP TO STAND ALONE)
Tandyn Almer
Doug Dillard (banjo player)
Ricky Fataar
Billy Hinsche
Gordon Marron (fiddle player & inventor of the ring modulator)
Brian Wilson
Carl Wilson

HERE SHE COME
Blondie Chaplin
Ricky Fataar
Billy Hinsche
Carl Wilson

HE COME DOWN
Brian Wilson
Blondie Chaplin
Ricky Fataar
Billy Hinsche
Carl Wilson

MARCELLA
Tandyn Almer
Ricky Fataar
Bruce Johnston
Tony Martin, Jr. (steel guitar player)
Brian Wilson
Carl Wilson

HOLD ON DEAR BROTHER
Orville "Red" Rhodes (steel guitar player)
Blondie Chaplin
Ricky Fataar
Carl Wilson

WHAT I FEEL (later retitled MAKE IT GOOD)
Dennis Wilson
Carl Wilson
- plus a later orchestral overdub at Sound City in Sepulveda, led by Darryl Dragon and including Stephens La Fever on electric bass, Frank Capp on tympani, and a host of string players...followed by a later horn overdub session at Sunset Sound

ALL THIS IS THAT
Blondie Chaplin
Ricky Fataar
Carl Wilson

CUDDLE UP
Dennis Wilson
Carl Wilson
- plus a later orchestral overdub at Sound City in Sepulveda, led by Darryl Dragon and including Stephens La Fever on electric bass, Frank Capp on tympani, and a host of string players

NOTE:  according to the contracts, HERE SHE COMES and HE COME DOWN were cut at the same session, as was the case with HOLD ON DEAR BROTHER and ALL THIS IS THAT, but I left Brian Wilson's name off the above credits for HERE SHE COMES and left Red Rhodes' name off the credits for ALL THIS IS THAT, as there is no aural evidence of them on those specific songs.  I also didn't bother naming all the string & horn players, but I certainly COULD if someone really wanted me to...:)


Title: Re: Carl & The Passions \
Post by: The infamous Baldwin Organ on February 20, 2010, 01:07:50 PM
I always thought Here She Comes sounds like something The Band would have done at that time.

The drums are mixed a bit too prominent for my taste, but they are good drums.

That's caused it was written/produced/probably mixed...by a drummer!  ;)

In my experience...don't let drummers touch the mixing process!  :-D


Title: Re: Carl & The Passions \
Post by: metal flake paint on February 20, 2010, 05:37:39 PM
Like Adam, I'm also very intrigued by the keyboard work on "So Tough" (and "Holland" as well)...but until someone listens to the session tapes and tells us, all we can do is guess, right?  We all know AFM contracts aren't definitive, but they can at least give us an idea of who was present at a given session.  Unfortunately, the ones for "Surf's Up" and "Holland" are obviously "forged" (meaning, they were hastily written up at a later date simply so some paperwork could be sumbitted), however the ones for the "So Tough" sessions seem to be more "authentic" (meaning, reliable to historians such as Adam, AGD, Ian, and myself).  So, here are the personel on the AFMs for each of this album's songs:

BEATRICE FROM BALTIMORE (later retitled YOU NEED A MESS OF HELP TO STAND ALONE)
Tandyn Almer
Doug Dillard (banjo player)
Ricky Fataar
Billy Hinsche
Gordon Marron (fiddle player & inventor of the ring modulator)
Brian Wilson
Carl Wilson

HERE SHE COME
Blondie Chaplin
Ricky Fataar
Billy Hinsche
Carl Wilson

HE COME DOWN
Brian Wilson
Blondie Chaplin
Ricky Fataar
Billy Hinsche
Carl Wilson

MARCELLA
Tandyn Almer
Ricky Fataar
Bruce Johnston
Tony Martin, Jr. (steel guitar player)
Brian Wilson
Carl Wilson

HOLD ON DEAR BROTHER
Orville "Red" Rhodes (steel guitar player)
Blondie Chaplin
Ricky Fataar
Carl Wilson

WHAT I FEEL (later retitled MAKE IT GOOD)
Dennis Wilson
Carl Wilson
- plus a later orchestral overdub at Sound City in Sepulveda, led by Darryl Dragon and including Stephens La Fever on electric bass, Frank Capp on tympani, and a host of string players...followed by a later horn overdub session at Sunset Sound

ALL THIS IS THAT
Blondie Chaplin
Ricky Fataar
Carl Wilson

CUDDLE UP
Dennis Wilson
Carl Wilson
- plus a later orchestral overdub at Sound City in Sepulveda, led by Darryl Dragon and including Stephens La Fever on electric bass, Frank Capp on tympani, and a host of string players

NOTE:  according to the contracts, HERE SHE COMES and HE COME DOWN were cut at the same session, as was the case with HOLD ON DEAR BROTHER and ALL THIS IS THAT, but I left Brian Wilson's name off the above credits for HERE SHE COMES and left Red Rhodes' name off the credits for ALL THIS IS THAT, as there is no aural evidence of them on those specific songs. 

Thanks for this insightful info. Correct me if I'm wrong but this must be close to the only BB album not to feature Al Jardine in an instrumental role.

Quote
I also didn't bother naming all the string & horn players, but I certainly COULD if someone really wanted me to...:)

I do, please.  ;D


Title: Re: Carl & The Passions \
Post by: adamghost on February 20, 2010, 06:51:44 PM
I don't know how much Al Jardine did instrumentally in the studio after the late '60s.  He's barely on 15 BIG ONES (only "Susie Cincinnati" which is from '69/'70), and he's not on LOVE YOU at all to my knowledge. He plays a lot of bass on M.I.U., but that's the only extensive studio performances by Al that I'm aware of after SURF'S UP.

What else...almost certainly on guitar for "Lady Lynda" and "Santa Ana Winds" but probably nowhere else on LIGHT ALBUM or KTSA.  He's on "California Calling" on BEACH BOYS '85.  On HOLLAND he's probably the lightly phased rhythm guitar that's buried deep in the mix on "California Saga", and I have a feeling it might be him on organ on the unreleased country-ish track whose name I am blanking on right now, and I think there's some banjo on "California Saga," correct?

SURF'S UP is probably the last album besides M.I.U. Al makes a significant instrumental contribution on....he's on "Feet," "Water" and "Lookin' At Tomorrow," and I suppose it's possible (though I have no evidence to that effect) that he's on "Student Demonstration Time" or "Disney Girls."

Earle Mankey told me a story that on one occasion Al brought a song into Brother Studio and played all the instruments on it (Earle didn't sound that impressed, honestly).  He indicated this was an extremely rare event.  That was probably around '77...


Title: Re: Carl & The Passions \
Post by: adamghost on February 20, 2010, 06:53:18 PM
Re:  LOVE YOU, I suppose Al might be on "Good Time."  Anyone know for sure?


Title: Re: Carl & The Passions \
Post by: mtaber on February 20, 2010, 07:58:57 PM
I know Al played all the instruments on "Their Hearts Were Full of Spring"...


Title: Re: Carl & The Passions \
Post by: adamghost on February 20, 2010, 08:42:02 PM
Like Adam, I'm also very intrigued by the keyboard work on "So Tough" (and "Holland" as well)...but until someone listens to the session tapes and tells us, all we can do is guess, right?  We all know AFM contracts aren't definitive, but they can at least give us an idea of who was present at a given session.  Unfortunately, the ones for "Surf's Up" and "Holland" are obviously "forged" (meaning, they were hastily written up at a later date simply so some paperwork could be sumbitted), however the ones for the "So Tough" sessions seem to be more "authentic" (meaning, reliable to historians such as Adam, AGD, Ian, and myself).  So, here are the personel on the AFMs for each of this album's songs:

BEATRICE FROM BALTIMORE (later retitled YOU NEED A MESS OF HELP TO STAND ALONE)
Tandyn Almer
Doug Dillard (banjo player)
Ricky Fataar
Billy Hinsche
Gordon Marron (fiddle player & inventor of the ring modulator)
Brian Wilson
Carl Wilson

HERE SHE COME
Blondie Chaplin
Ricky Fataar
Billy Hinsche
Carl Wilson

HE COME DOWN
Brian Wilson
Blondie Chaplin
Ricky Fataar
Billy Hinsche
Carl Wilson

MARCELLA
Tandyn Almer
Ricky Fataar
Bruce Johnston
Tony Martin, Jr. (steel guitar player)
Brian Wilson
Carl Wilson

HOLD ON DEAR BROTHER
Orville "Red" Rhodes (steel guitar player)
Blondie Chaplin
Ricky Fataar
Carl Wilson

WHAT I FEEL (later retitled MAKE IT GOOD)
Dennis Wilson
Carl Wilson
- plus a later orchestral overdub at Sound City in Sepulveda, led by Darryl Dragon and including Stephens La Fever on electric bass, Frank Capp on tympani, and a host of string players...followed by a later horn overdub session at Sunset Sound

ALL THIS IS THAT
Blondie Chaplin
Ricky Fataar
Carl Wilson

CUDDLE UP
Dennis Wilson
Carl Wilson
- plus a later orchestral overdub at Sound City in Sepulveda, led by Darryl Dragon and including Stephens La Fever on electric bass, Frank Capp on tympani, and a host of string players

NOTE:  according to the contracts, HERE SHE COMES and HE COME DOWN were cut at the same session, as was the case with HOLD ON DEAR BROTHER and ALL THIS IS THAT, but I left Brian Wilson's name off the above credits for HERE SHE COMES and left Red Rhodes' name off the credits for ALL THIS IS THAT, as there is no aural evidence of them on those specific songs.  I also didn't bother naming all the string & horn players, but I certainly COULD if someone really wanted me to...:)

Interesting.  Tandyn Almer was a keyboard player, wasn't he?

Couple of interesting things this gives us.  With no Blondie, that means the lead guitar on "Mess Of Help" is Carl.

Without Blondie, and with Tandyn Almer on the session (probably organ or synth) that places Bruce on bass for "Marcella."  That's news (though he did play bass on a promo clip for the song, so it makes sense).  Carl definitely on rhythm guitar.  Brian almost certainly on the piano (and probably percussion) that comes in around 2:43.

No Billy on "Brother," but yes on "Here She Comes" to me accounts to the difference in keyboard styles that I posted about earlier.  That puts Billy on piano for "Here She Comes".  The rhythm guitar sounds more like Blondie, so I would bet that puts Carl on organ, with Blondie overdubbing bass.  That makes it Carl on piano for "Hold On Dear Brother" -- and listening back to the track, the use of 2nds in the chords is very typical for him.

Carl's presence on "Make It Good" surprised me.  Dennis on piano here...but what does Carl do?  Not bass, since that was overdubbed later.  Was there a guitar or organ part that was taken out later, or is it just buried in the mix?  On "Cuddle Up" there is a barely audible acoustic guitar in the left channel (listen with headphones at 1:05) -- there's Carl. 

"He Come Down" is interesting.  Billy Hinsche's there, as is Brian.  Brian on piano.  Ricky on drums.  Blondie on bass.  There are two organ parts...a fast Leslie one (left channel) and a single line one (right channel).  I was pretty sure the right channel one wasn't Brian until I noticed it doubled the bass line at one point.  The left one sounds similar to some of Brian's organ work in the '70s.  So I'd guess at least one of the organ parts is Brian.  One of the other ones could be Carl or Billy Hinsche...but that leaves one person unaccounted for...

So, listening very carefully at the top of the song, there is something else going on...a single note pedaling in the background...listen around :27 and you can hear it the best.  Listening very carefully, it sounds like a strummed instrument...most like a ukelele.  That's probably Carl.

"Mess Of Help" we have no Blondie, but we have Billy, Brian, and Tandyn.  There are two piano tracks (at least).  The prominent one is definitely Brian.  Ricky on drums obviously.  Who's playing bass?  It's a pretty raw, funky track.  Brian?  Doubtful.  Carl or Billy on bass?  Tough call.  For rawness I'd give a slight edge to it being Carl, but I don't know.  I think someone said Billy played bass in '72 on a tour, correct?  My guess is both Carl and Billy on guitars.  No idea what Tandyn does, unless he plays something other than piano...though I think the track sheet had an organ part listed, which may have been dropped later.

"All This Is That" puts Carl on keys, Ricky on drums, Blondie on bass.

So apparently Carl WAS playing a lot of guitar on the CATP sessions.  I was all wet on that theory.


Title: Re: Carl & The Passions \
Post by: metal flake paint on February 21, 2010, 12:34:55 AM
I don't know how much Al Jardine did instrumentally in the studio after the late '60s.  He's barely on 15 BIG ONES (only "Susie Cincinnati" which is from '69/'70), and he's not on LOVE YOU at all to my knowledge. He plays a lot of bass on M.I.U., but that's the only extensive studio performances by Al that I'm aware of after SURF'S UP.

What else...almost certainly on guitar for "Lady Lynda" and "Santa Ana Winds" but probably nowhere else on LIGHT ALBUM or KTSA.  He's on "California Calling" on BEACH BOYS '85.  On HOLLAND he's probably the lightly phased rhythm guitar that's buried deep in the mix on "California Saga", and I have a feeling it might be him on organ on the unreleased country-ish track whose name I am blanking on right now, and I think there's some banjo on "California Saga," correct?

SURF'S UP is probably the last album besides M.I.U. Al makes a significant instrumental contribution on....he's on "Feet," "Water" and "Lookin' At Tomorrow," and I suppose it's possible (though I have no evidence to that effect) that he's on "Student Demonstration Time" or "Disney Girls."

Earle Mankey told me a story that on one occasion Al brought a song into Brother Studio and played all the instruments on it (Earle didn't sound that impressed, honestly).  He indicated this was an extremely rare event.  That was probably around '77...

Thanks Adam. Could the track you're trying to think of be "Out In The Counrty"?


Title: Re: Carl & The Passions \
Post by: metal flake paint on February 21, 2010, 12:43:29 AM

Interesting.  Tandyn Almer was a keyboard player, wasn't he?

Couple of interesting things this gives us.  With no Blondie, that means the lead guitar on "Mess Of Help" is Carl.

Without Blondie, and with Tandyn Almer on the session (probably organ or synth) that places Bruce on bass for "Marcella."  That's news (though he did play bass on a promo clip for the song, so it makes sense).  Carl definitely on rhythm guitar.  Brian almost certainly on the piano (and probably percussion) that comes in around 2:43.

No Billy on "Brother," but yes on "Here She Comes" to me accounts to the difference in keyboard styles that I posted about earlier.  That puts Billy on piano for "Here She Comes".  The rhythm guitar sounds more like Blondie, so I would bet that puts Carl on organ, with Blondie overdubbing bass.  That makes it Carl on piano for "Hold On Dear Brother" -- and listening back to the track, the use of 2nds in the chords is very typical for him.

Carl's presence on "Make It Good" surprised me.  Dennis on piano here...but what does Carl do?  Not bass, since that was overdubbed later.  Was there a guitar or organ part that was taken out later, or is it just buried in the mix?  On "Cuddle Up" there is a barely audible acoustic guitar in the left channel (listen with headphones at 1:05) -- there's Carl. 

"He Come Down" is interesting.  Billy Hinsche's there, as is Brian.  Brian on piano.  Ricky on drums.  Blondie on bass.  There are two organ parts...a fast Leslie one (left channel) and a single line one (right channel).  I was pretty sure the right channel one wasn't Brian until I noticed it doubled the bass line at one point.  The left one sounds similar to some of Brian's organ work in the '70s.  So I'd guess at least one of the organ parts is Brian.  One of the other ones could be Carl or Billy Hinsche...but that leaves one person unaccounted for...

So, listening very carefully at the top of the song, there is something else going on...a single note pedaling in the background...listen around :27 and you can hear it the best.  Listening very carefully, it sounds like a strummed instrument...most like a ukelele.  That's probably Carl.

"Mess Of Help" we have no Blondie, but we have Billy, Brian, and Tandyn.  There are two piano tracks (at least).  The prominent one is definitely Brian.  Ricky on drums obviously.  Who's playing bass?  It's a pretty raw, funky track.  Brian?  Doubtful.  Carl or Billy on bass?  Tough call.  For rawness I'd give a slight edge to it being Carl, but I don't know.  I think someone said Billy played bass in '72 on a tour, correct?  My guess is both Carl and Billy on guitars.  No idea what Tandyn does, unless he plays something other than piano...though I think the track sheet had an organ part listed, which may have been dropped later.

"All This Is That" puts Carl on keys, Ricky on drums, Blondie on bass.

So apparently Carl WAS playing a lot of guitar on the CATP sessions.  I was all wet on that theory.

Great stuff Adam. Surely worthy of inclusion in the "Definitive Instrumental Thread" (if there is such a thing already).


Title: Re: Carl & The Passions \
Post by: GuyO on February 21, 2010, 02:16:29 AM
Great stuff Adam. Surely worthy of inclusion in the "Definitive Instrumental Thread" (if there is such a thing already).

There isn't. But I surely would like to have one! I have very fond memories of those weeks (months?) checking in on, and adding to, the definite vocals thread after work on a daily basis in 2008. Back then I suggested a definitive vocals thread including ALL vocals. But I was overruled, the argument being: "Impossible". I'm amazed by peoples ability to discern musicians by listening to the recordings and I always enjoy comments like "Hold on, I'll just send Alan Jardine an email", or "Why don't we ask Bruce on the BBB"?


Title: Re: Carl & The Passions \
Post by: Mike's Beard on February 21, 2010, 02:32:32 AM
Yes thank you very much for posting this info, I love reading this sort of stuff. Anybody else notice that Brian was very busy for an album he apparantly had very little to do with?


Title: Re: Carl & The Passions \
Post by: hypehat on February 21, 2010, 03:56:07 AM

WHAT I FEEL (later retitled MAKE IT GOOD)
Dennis Wilson
Carl Wilson
- plus a later orchestral overdub at Sound City in Sepulveda, led by Darryl Dragon and including Stephens La Fever on electric bass, Frank Capp on tympani, and a host of string players...followed by a later horn overdub session at Sunset Sound


CUDDLE UP
Dennis Wilson
Carl Wilson
- plus a later orchestral overdub at Sound City in Sepulveda, led by Darryl Dragon and including Stephens La Fever on electric bass, Frank Capp on tympani, and a host of string players


Carl's presence on "Make It Good" surprised me.  Dennis on piano here...but what does Carl do?  Not bass, since that was overdubbed later.  Was there a guitar or organ part that was taken out later, or is it just buried in the mix?  On "Cuddle Up" there is a barely audible acoustic guitar in the left channel (listen with headphones at 1:05) -- there's Carl.  


Well, there are two pianos going on in Cuddle Up, and i suspect Make It Good has two as well - I personally was suprised to see Daryl Dragon's name not on these player credits, does that mean he was in the booth whilst Dennis and Carl played the basic pianos? Although Carl on CU's guitar is also a probably a safe bet, that sounds like an overdub to me - Carl would be doing a lot of sitting around on that session.

C-man, whilst i'm not interested in names so much, how many orchestral players were on the sessions led by Daryl? And this information is great, count me also pleasantly surprised by Brian's involvement in these tunes.


Title: Re: Carl & The Passions \
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on February 21, 2010, 04:48:17 AM

WHAT I FEEL (later retitled MAKE IT GOOD)
Dennis Wilson
Carl Wilson
- plus a later orchestral overdub at Sound City in Sepulveda, led by Darryl Dragon and including Stephens La Fever on electric bass, Frank Capp on tympani, and a host of string players...followed by a later horn overdub session at Sunset Sound


CUDDLE UP
Dennis Wilson
Carl Wilson
- plus a later orchestral overdub at Sound City in Sepulveda, led by Darryl Dragon and including Stephens La Fever on electric bass, Frank Capp on tympani, and a host of string players


Carl's presence on "Make It Good" surprised me.  Dennis on piano here...but what does Carl do?  Not bass, since that was overdubbed later.  Was there a guitar or organ part that was taken out later, or is it just buried in the mix?  On "Cuddle Up" there is a barely audible acoustic guitar in the left channel (listen with headphones at 1:05) -- there's Carl.  


Well, there are two pianos going on in Cuddle Up, and i suspect Make It Good has two as well - I personally was suprised to see Daryl Dragon's name not on these player credits, does that mean he was in the booth whilst Dennis and Carl played the basic pianos? Although Carl on CU's guitar is also a probably a safe bet, that sounds like an overdub to me - Carl would be doing a lot of sitting around on that session.

C-man, whilst i'm not interested in names so much, how many orchestral players were on the sessions led by Daryl? And this information is great, count me also pleasantly surprised by Brian's involvement in these tunes.


Those are almost certainly overdubs on tracks recorded earlier that DD was on - remember, these two songs originated during the sessions for Dennis' solo album in 1971 ("Cuddle Up" was originally "Old Movie").


Title: Re: Carl & The Passions \
Post by: c-man on February 21, 2010, 06:49:16 AM
adamghost:  <<I don't know how much Al Jardine did instrumentally in the studio after the late '60s. He's barely on 15 BIG ONES (only "Susie Cincinnati" which is from '69/'70), and he's not on LOVE YOU at all to my knowledge. He plays a lot of bass on M.I.U., but that's the only extensive studio performances by Al that I'm aware of after SURF'S UP.>>  Interestingly, the AFMs for MIU list either Ed Carter or Rusty Ford as the bassist (this series of AFMs actually lists the instruments along with the musicians' names).  On the ones where Rusty Ford is bassist, Ed is listed as a guitarist.  Al is listed as a guitarist on all of them.  But since Rusty receives only a "thank you" on the album's inner sleeve, could it be that his bass performances on the basic tracks were later wiped & replaced by Alan overdubbing the bass?  Regardless, Al definitely played bass, and most everything else, on "Come Go With Me" (but there's no AFM for that one).    

adamghost:  <<What else...almost certainly on guitar for "Lady Lynda" and "Santa Ana Winds" but probably nowhere else on LIGHT ALBUM or KTSA. He's on "California Calling" on BEACH BOYS '85. On HOLLAND he's probably the lightly phased rhythm guitar that's buried deep in the mix on "California Saga", and I have a feeling it might be him on organ on the unreleased country-ish track whose name I am blanking on right now, and I think there's some banjo on "California Saga," correct?>>  Yes, he played banjo on "California Saga".  And a guitar part on "Endless Harmony" from KTSA.  

adamghost:  <<SURF'S UP is probably the last album besides M.I.U. Al makes a significant instrumental contribution on....he's on "Feet," "Water" and "Lookin' At Tomorrow," and I suppose it's possible (though I have no evidence to that effect) that he's on "Student Demonstration Time" or "Disney Girls.">>  According to Desper, Carl played both guitars, and Daryl the bass, on "SDT".  According to Bruce, Ed Carter played both guitars on "DG", while he (Bruce) played Moog bass and mandolin.

adamghost:  <<Re: LOVE YOU, I suppose Al might be on "Good Time." Anyone know for sure?>> Not for sure, but I suspect either bass or the 12-string guitar solo-ish line.  That track was reportedly cut at the same session as "Susie".  

adamghost:  <<Couple of interesting things this gives us. With no Blondie, that means the lead guitar on "Mess Of Help" is Carl.>> Unless it's Blondie on an undocumented overdub.  :)  I read that following the breakup of The Flame, Blondie returned to South Africa for several months.  He was contacted there by Jack Rieley and asked to join the BBs in Europe when they were there in February for "Gran Gala du Disque" and other appearances.  This would explain his absence from the "Mess Of Help" and "Marcella" tracking sessions, but as I said, he could have still overdubbed parts later.  Although, in the promo clip for "Mess Of Help" shot for the Old Grey Whistle Test, Carl mimes the lead guitar part while Blondie mimes the bass.

adamghost:  <<Without Blondie, and with Tandyn Almer on the session (probably organ or synth) that places Bruce on bass for "Marcella." That's news (though he did play bass on a promo clip for the song, so it makes sense). Carl definitely on rhythm guitar. Brian almost certainly on the piano (and probably percussion) that comes in around 2:43.>>  Bruce has said that he only sang on "Marcella", but he said that a good ten years after the fact, so who knows.  I think that Carl could've overdubbed the percussion, as he often did on songs he produced (with Ricky maybe helping him here).  And who played the zither?  

adamghost:  <<No Billy on "Brother," but yes on "Here She Comes" to me accounts to the difference in keyboard styles that I posted about earlier. That puts Billy on piano for "Here She Comes". The rhythm guitar sounds more like Blondie, so I would bet that puts Carl on organ, with Blondie overdubbing bass.>> I think there's maybe two rhythm guitar parts on "Here She Comes" (maybe Blondie & Carl), but I'll bet Blondie played bass on the basic track (since it's the dominant "guide" instrument), and his guitars were overdubbed.  

adamghost:  <<That makes it Carl on piano for "Hold On Dear Brother" -- and listening back to the track, the use of 2nds in the chords is very typical for him.>> Carl and Blondie are both noted as playing "1 dbl." at the session for "Hold On Dear Brother"/"All This Is That".  That could be for guitar & bass (Blondie) and acoustic piano & electric piano (Carl), or acoustic piano & guitar (Blondie) and bass & electric piano (Carl)...or any number of possible configuratons.  Or, Ricky (reportedly the main composer of the two Blondie/Ricky tunes on "So Tough") could've played the piano (although there is no "double" listed for him on the AFM).

adamghost:  <<"He Come Down" is interesting. Billy Hinsche's there, as is Brian. Brian on piano. Ricky on drums. Blondie on bass. There are two organ parts...a fast Leslie one (left channel) and a single line one (right channel). I was pretty sure the right channel one wasn't Brian until I noticed it doubled the bass line at one point. The left one sounds similar to some of Brian's organ work in the '70s. So I'd guess at least one of the organ parts is Brian. One of the other ones could be Carl or Billy Hinsche...but that leaves one person unaccounted for...>>  Well, since this was supposedly cut at the same session as "Here She Comes", perhaps Billy only played on "Here She Comes" (likewise, I'm assuming Brian only played on "He Come Down").

adamghost:  <<So, listening very carefully at the top of the song, there is something else going on...a single note pedaling in the background...listen around :27 and you can hear it the best. Listening very carefully, it sounds like a strummed instrument...most like a ukelele. That's probably Carl.>> Never noticed it, but yes...Carl played uke on "Good Time" and probably "Loop De Loop".    

adamghost:  <<"Mess Of Help" we have no Blondie, but we have Billy, Brian, and Tandyn. There are two piano tracks (at least). The prominent one is definitely Brian. Ricky on drums obviously. Who's playing bass? It's a pretty raw, funky track. Brian? Doubtful. Carl or Billy on bass? Tough call. For rawness I'd give a slight edge to it being Carl, but I don't know. I think someone said Billy played bass in '72 on a tour, correct?>> Yes...August '72.

adamghost:  <<My guess is both Carl and Billy on guitars. No idea what Tandyn does, unless he plays something other than piano...though I think the track sheet had an organ part listed, which may have been dropped later.>> I think I can hear organ in the "she don't know" parts.

adamghost:  <<"All This Is That" puts Carl on keys, Ricky on drums, Blondie on bass.>> Thank God, an easy one!  :)

metal flake paint:  <<Thanks Adam. Could the track you're trying to think of be "Out In The Counrty"?>> AFM says that one was cut at the "Marcella" session (along with something called "Body Talk"), so supposedly the same lineup.  Then there was a big string & banjo overdub later.  But, isn't the booted version more "demo-ish" than "master-ish"?  

hypehat: <<C-man, whilst i'm not interested in names so much, how many orchestral players were on the sessions led by Daryl?>> Twenty-five.  And since metal flake paint IS interested:

Electric bass guitar: Stephens LaFever
Violins: Bonnie Douglas, Assa Drori, Irving Geller, Alfred Lustgarten, Leonard Malarsky, Jay Rosen, Nathan Ross, Sheldon Sanov, Leonard Selic, Spiro Stamos, Dorothy Wade, and Shari Zippert
Violas: Norm Botnick, David Burk, Joseph Reilich, and David Schwartz
Cellos: JoAnn Johannsen, Jan Kelley, Nathan Gershman, and Victor Sazer
Acoustic upright double basses (arco): James D. Hughart, Richard F. Kelley, Sr., and Meyer Rubin
Tympani: Frank Capp

The "Make It Good" horn overdub, led by Dennis at Sunset Sound, included the following:
French horns: Barbara Carlson, Vincent DeRosa, David Duke, and George Hyde
Trumpets: Chuck Findley and Ollie Mitchell
Trombone: Lew McCreary
Bass trombone: Dick "Slyde" Hyde


Andrew G. Doe:  <<Those are almost certainly overdubs on tracks recorded earlier that DD was on - remember, these two songs originated during the sessions for Dennis' solo album in 1971 ("Cuddle Up" was originally "Old Movie").>> Yeah, that would be my guess...Dennis & Daryl played twin grand pianos on the basic session (as they did on "Barbara"), then Carl overdubbed acoustic guitar at the session documented on AFMs...Dennis may not have necessarily played anything on that overdub, but was listed 'cause he was there.  


Title: Re: Carl & The Passions \
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on February 21, 2010, 10:38:51 AM
 And who played the zither?  

Shirley Abicair ?  ;D


Title: Re: Carl & The Passions \
Post by: Jon Stebbins on February 21, 2010, 11:30:31 AM

Thanks for this insightful info. Correct me if I'm wrong but this must be close to the only BB album not to feature Al Jardine in an instrumental role.
[/quote]

Well...not exactly... other than a sped up re-release of the '61 version of Surfin'...the first two Beach Boys LP's do not feature Al in any role.


Title: Re: Carl & The Passions \
Post by: Ed Roach on February 21, 2010, 03:19:44 PM
Interestingly, the AFMs for MIU list either Ed Carter or Rusty Ford as the bassist (this series of AFMs actually lists the instruments along with the musicians' names).  On the ones where Rusty Ford is bassist, Ed is listed as a guitarist.  Al is listed as a guitarist on all of them.  But since Rusty receives only a "thank you" on the album's inner sleeve, could it be that his bass performances on the basic tracks were later wiped & replaced by Alan overdubbing the bass?  Regardless, Al definitely played bass, and most everything else, on "Come Go With Me" (but there's no AFM for that one).    

You know, c-man, I don't think I've ever gotten involved in discussions like these, but your recent questions to me about my films & photos have made me realize there are quite a few answers regarding who's playing what with various road bands.  Sadly, I have far, far less visual stuff from the studios, although I spent a lot of 'fly on the wall' time on Ivar, (with The Flame), at Bellagio and of course at Brother...  Sure wish I would have filmed & photographed more often than I did during these times...
However, regarding the AFM contracts, it's been so long since I've even looked at one, but they do always list the session contractors name, don't they?  I'm sure there were times when these were kept accurately, but other times I know there were certain adjustments made; someone added to a session to make up double-scale on a session where they didn't get it, or maybe just weren't credited for a session that they were actually there for.  I'm just saying that these contracts weren't always gospel..


Title: Re: Carl & The Passions \
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on February 21, 2010, 03:27:29 PM
Interestingly, the AFMs for MIU list either Ed Carter or Rusty Ford as the bassist (this series of AFMs actually lists the instruments along with the musicians' names).  On the ones where Rusty Ford is bassist, Ed is listed as a guitarist.  Al is listed as a guitarist on all of them.  But since Rusty receives only a "thank you" on the album's inner sleeve, could it be that his bass performances on the basic tracks were later wiped & replaced by Alan overdubbing the bass?  Regardless, Al definitely played bass, and most everything else, on "Come Go With Me" (but there's no AFM for that one).    

You know, c-man, I don't think I've ever gotten involved in discussions like these, but your recent questions to me about my films & photos have made me realize there are quite a few answers regarding who's playing what with various road bands.  Sadly, I have far, far less visual stuff from the studios, although I spent a lot of 'fly on the wall' time on Ivar, (with The Flame), at Bellagio and of course at Brother...  Sure wish I would have filmed & photographed more often than I did during these times...
However, regarding the AFM contracts, it's been so long since I've even looked at one, but they do always list the session contractors name, don't they?  I'm sure there were times when these were kept accurately, but other times I know there were certain adjustments made; someone added to a session to make up double-scale on a session where they didn't get it, or maybe just weren't credited for a session that they were actually there for.  I'm just saying that these contracts weren't always gospel..


No argument there !  There are AFM sheets for the Baambrugge Holland sessions dated long after the band were back in the US.  :o


Title: Re: Carl & The Passions \
Post by: adamghost on February 21, 2010, 03:57:07 PM


Thanks Adam. Could the track you're trying to think of be "Out In The Counrty"?

Yeah, that's the one.


Title: Re: Carl & The Passions \
Post by: adamghost on February 21, 2010, 04:03:41 PM
Carl played the uke eh?  I didn't know that, that's just what it sounded like.  Now I feel smart for calling that one!

My gut feeling is it's Bruce on bass on "Marcella."  It just fits, somehow...and he was a much more active bassist in the '71-'72 era than at other times in the band.  Which would, I believe, make that the last Bruce bass appearance anywhere.  Unless of course he was just at the session doing nothing, but if you think about it, if he was there, he'd be the most likely candidate to lay down the bass line.  Everyone else was busy.

Interesting that Al played guitar on "Endless Harmony" (but not Carl?).  It occurred to me later that since a lot of the KTSA sessions were at his house he might have played more than I'd originally thought.  Interestingly, someone just posted a youtube of some Beach Boys concerts in Japan in the early '90s and you can hear Al's guitar louder than Carl's...that's very unusual, and it's kind of cool.  He seems to have been more a part of the band's instrumental sound after the mid '80s (i.e., you could actually hear him sometimes).


Title: Re: Carl & The Passions \
Post by: c-man on February 21, 2010, 09:52:22 PM
Interesting that Al played guitar on "Endless Harmony" (but not Carl?).  

According to the AFM, Carl played bass, Brian played organ, Bruce played piano, and Dennis played percussion on that one. 


Title: Re: Carl & The Passions \
Post by: c-man on February 21, 2010, 10:04:48 PM
Interestingly, the AFMs for MIU list either Ed Carter or Rusty Ford as the bassist (this series of AFMs actually lists the instruments along with the musicians' names).  On the ones where Rusty Ford is bassist, Ed is listed as a guitarist.  Al is listed as a guitarist on all of them.  But since Rusty receives only a "thank you" on the album's inner sleeve, could it be that his bass performances on the basic tracks were later wiped & replaced by Alan overdubbing the bass?  Regardless, Al definitely played bass, and most everything else, on "Come Go With Me" (but there's no AFM for that one).    

You know, c-man, I don't think I've ever gotten involved in discussions like these, but your recent questions to me about my films & photos have made me realize there are quite a few answers regarding who's playing what with various road bands.  Sadly, I have far, far less visual stuff from the studios, although I spent a lot of 'fly on the wall' time on Ivar, (with The Flame), at Bellagio and of course at Brother...  Sure wish I would have filmed & photographed more often than I did during these times...
However, regarding the AFM contracts, it's been so long since I've even looked at one, but they do always list the session contractors name, don't they?  I'm sure there were times when these were kept accurately, but other times I know there were certain adjustments made; someone added to a session to make up double-scale on a session where they didn't get it, or maybe just weren't credited for a session that they were actually there for.  I'm just saying that these contracts weren't always gospel..


Hi Ed...for most Beach Boys sessions in the late '60s/early '70s, the AFM lists Diane Rovell as contractor...sometimes Jon Parks.


Title: Re: Carl & The Passions \
Post by: adamghost on February 21, 2010, 11:13:25 PM
Interesting that Al played guitar on "Endless Harmony" (but not Carl?).  

According to the AFM, Carl played bass, Brian played organ, Bruce played piano, and Dennis played percussion on that one. 

And Bruce on Rhodes too I assume....Wow.  Really?  So they returned to the late '60s band recording configuration one more time on that one. That's kind of a shocker to me.  I wonder what Bruce's motivation for this was?  And who drummed, then?  I'm surprised it wasn't Dennis, since the drums were so minimal.  Wasn't aware there was true Beach Boys band performance that late in the game.  The last or nearly last one, surely.


Title: Re: Carl & The Passions \
Post by: adamghost on February 21, 2010, 11:14:55 PM
How much of the band was on "Santa Ana Winds"?  That would be my other guess for most group instrumental performance on the album.


Title: Re: Carl & The Passions \
Post by: metal flake paint on February 22, 2010, 03:08:20 AM
adamghost:  <<I don't know how much Al Jardine did instrumentally in the studio after the late '60s. He's barely on 15 BIG ONES (only "Susie Cincinnati" which is from '69/'70), and he's not on LOVE YOU at all to my knowledge. He plays a lot of bass on M.I.U., but that's the only extensive studio performances by Al that I'm aware of after SURF'S UP.>>  Interestingly, the AFMs for MIU list either Ed Carter or Rusty Ford as the bassist (this series of AFMs actually lists the instruments along with the musicians' names).  On the ones where Rusty Ford is bassist, Ed is listed as a guitarist.  Al is listed as a guitarist on all of them.  But since Rusty receives only a "thank you" on the album's inner sleeve, could it be that his bass performances on the basic tracks were later wiped & replaced by Alan overdubbing the bass?  Regardless, Al definitely played bass, and most everything else, on "Come Go With Me" (but there's no AFM for that one).    

adamghost:  <<What else...almost certainly on guitar for "Lady Lynda" and "Santa Ana Winds" but probably nowhere else on LIGHT ALBUM or KTSA. He's on "California Calling" on BEACH BOYS '85. On HOLLAND he's probably the lightly phased rhythm guitar that's buried deep in the mix on "California Saga", and I have a feeling it might be him on organ on the unreleased country-ish track whose name I am blanking on right now, and I think there's some banjo on "California Saga," correct?>>  Yes, he played banjo on "California Saga".  And a guitar part on "Endless Harmony" from KTSA.  

adamghost:  <<SURF'S UP is probably the last album besides M.I.U. Al makes a significant instrumental contribution on....he's on "Feet," "Water" and "Lookin' At Tomorrow," and I suppose it's possible (though I have no evidence to that effect) that he's on "Student Demonstration Time" or "Disney Girls.">>  According to Desper, Carl played both guitars, and Daryl the bass, on "SDT".  According to Bruce, Ed Carter played both guitars on "DG", while he (Bruce) played Moog bass and mandolin.

adamghost:  <<Re: LOVE YOU, I suppose Al might be on "Good Time." Anyone know for sure?>> Not for sure, but I suspect either bass or the 12-string guitar solo-ish line.  That track was reportedly cut at the same session as "Susie".  

adamghost:  <<Couple of interesting things this gives us. With no Blondie, that means the lead guitar on "Mess Of Help" is Carl.>> Unless it's Blondie on an undocumented overdub.  :)  I read that following the breakup of The Flame, Blondie returned to South Africa for several months.  He was contacted there by Jack Rieley and asked to join the BBs in Europe when they were there in February for "Gran Gala du Disque" and other appearances.  This would explain his absence from the "Mess Of Help" and "Marcella" tracking sessions, but as I said, he could have still overdubbed parts later.  Although, in the promo clip for "Mess Of Help" shot for the Old Grey Whistle Test, Carl mimes the lead guitar part while Blondie mimes the bass.

adamghost:  <<Without Blondie, and with Tandyn Almer on the session (probably organ or synth) that places Bruce on bass for "Marcella." That's news (though he did play bass on a promo clip for the song, so it makes sense). Carl definitely on rhythm guitar. Brian almost certainly on the piano (and probably percussion) that comes in around 2:43.>>  Bruce has said that he only sang on "Marcella", but he said that a good ten years after the fact, so who knows.  I think that Carl could've overdubbed the percussion, as he often did on songs he produced (with Ricky maybe helping him here).  And who played the zither?  

adamghost:  <<No Billy on "Brother," but yes on "Here She Comes" to me accounts to the difference in keyboard styles that I posted about earlier. That puts Billy on piano for "Here She Comes". The rhythm guitar sounds more like Blondie, so I would bet that puts Carl on organ, with Blondie overdubbing bass.>> I think there's maybe two rhythm guitar parts on "Here She Comes" (maybe Blondie & Carl), but I'll bet Blondie played bass on the basic track (since it's the dominant "guide" instrument), and his guitars were overdubbed.  

adamghost:  <<That makes it Carl on piano for "Hold On Dear Brother" -- and listening back to the track, the use of 2nds in the chords is very typical for him.>> Carl and Blondie are both noted as playing "1 dbl." at the session for "Hold On Dear Brother"/"All This Is That".  That could be for guitar & bass (Blondie) and acoustic piano & electric piano (Carl), or acoustic piano & guitar (Blondie) and bass & electric piano (Carl)...or any number of possible configuratons.  Or, Ricky (reportedly the main composer of the two Blondie/Ricky tunes on "So Tough") could've played the piano (although there is no "double" listed for him on the AFM).

adamghost:  <<"He Come Down" is interesting. Billy Hinsche's there, as is Brian. Brian on piano. Ricky on drums. Blondie on bass. There are two organ parts...a fast Leslie one (left channel) and a single line one (right channel). I was pretty sure the right channel one wasn't Brian until I noticed it doubled the bass line at one point. The left one sounds similar to some of Brian's organ work in the '70s. So I'd guess at least one of the organ parts is Brian. One of the other ones could be Carl or Billy Hinsche...but that leaves one person unaccounted for...>>  Well, since this was supposedly cut at the same session as "Here She Comes", perhaps Billy only played on "Here She Comes" (likewise, I'm assuming Brian only played on "He Come Down").

adamghost:  <<So, listening very carefully at the top of the song, there is something else going on...a single note pedaling in the background...listen around :27 and you can hear it the best. Listening very carefully, it sounds like a strummed instrument...most like a ukelele. That's probably Carl.>> Never noticed it, but yes...Carl played uke on "Good Time" and probably "Loop De Loop".    

adamghost:  <<"Mess Of Help" we have no Blondie, but we have Billy, Brian, and Tandyn. There are two piano tracks (at least). The prominent one is definitely Brian. Ricky on drums obviously. Who's playing bass? It's a pretty raw, funky track. Brian? Doubtful. Carl or Billy on bass? Tough call. For rawness I'd give a slight edge to it being Carl, but I don't know. I think someone said Billy played bass in '72 on a tour, correct?>> Yes...August '72.

adamghost:  <<My guess is both Carl and Billy on guitars. No idea what Tandyn does, unless he plays something other than piano...though I think the track sheet had an organ part listed, which may have been dropped later.>> I think I can hear organ in the "she don't know" parts.

adamghost:  <<"All This Is That" puts Carl on keys, Ricky on drums, Blondie on bass.>> Thank God, an easy one!  :)

metal flake paint:  <<Thanks Adam. Could the track you're trying to think of be "Out In The Counrty"?>> AFM says that one was cut at the "Marcella" session (along with something called "Body Talk"), so supposedly the same lineup.  Then there was a big string & banjo overdub later.  But, isn't the booted version more "demo-ish" than "master-ish"?  

hypehat: <<C-man, whilst i'm not interested in names so much, how many orchestral players were on the sessions led by Daryl?>> Twenty-five.  And since metal flake paint IS interested:

Electric bass guitar: Stephens LaFever
Violins: Bonnie Douglas, Assa Drori, Irving Geller, Alfred Lustgarten, Leonard Malarsky, Jay Rosen, Nathan Ross, Sheldon Sanov, Leonard Selic, Spiro Stamos, Dorothy Wade, and Shari Zippert
Violas: Norm Botnick, David Burk, Joseph Reilich, and David Schwartz
Cellos: JoAnn Johannsen, Jan Kelley, Nathan Gershman, and Victor Sazer
Acoustic upright double basses (arco): James D. Hughart, Richard F. Kelley, Sr., and Meyer Rubin
Tympani: Frank Capp

The "Make It Good" horn overdub, led by Dennis at Sunset Sound, included the following:
French horns: Barbara Carlson, Vincent DeRosa, David Duke, and George Hyde
Trumpets: Chuck Findley and Ollie Mitchell
Trombone: Lew McCreary
Bass trombone: Dick "Slyde" Hyde


Many thanks Craig. Nice to see a familiar name in Frank Capp. "Hey Frankie, none of those big pick-ups, pa pa pa pa pa, just, du-du, du-du"


Title: Re: Carl & The Passions \
Post by: metal flake paint on February 22, 2010, 03:11:57 AM

Thanks for this insightful info. Correct me if I'm wrong but this must be close to the only BB album not to feature Al Jardine in an instrumental role.

Well...not exactly... other than a sped up re-release of the '61 version of Surfin'...the first two Beach Boys LP's do not feature Al in any role.
[/quote]

I stand corrected  :-[


Title: Re: Carl & The Passions \
Post by: metal flake paint on February 22, 2010, 03:16:20 AM
Great stuff Adam. Surely worthy of inclusion in the "Definitive Instrumental Thread" (if there is such a thing already).

There isn't. That's a shame. But I surely would like to have one! Me too. Would make a great companion piece to the vocals thread! I have very fond memories of those weeks (months?) checking in on, and adding to, the definite vocals thread after work on a daily basis in 2008. Back then I suggested a definitive vocals thread including ALL vocals. But I was overruled, the argument being: "Impossible". I'm amazed by peoples ability to discern musicians by listening to the recordings and I always enjoy comments like "Hold on, I'll just send Alan Jardine an email", or "Why don't we ask Bruce on the BBB"?


Title: Re: Carl & The Passions \
Post by: metal flake paint on February 22, 2010, 03:30:57 AM
How much of the band was on "Santa Ana Winds"? 
Judging from what I've read about the Knebworth performance, maybe none  :o


Title: Re: Carl & The Passions \
Post by: c-man on February 22, 2010, 06:20:17 AM

Thanks for this insightful info. Correct me if I'm wrong but this must be close to the only BB album not to feature Al Jardine in an instrumental role.

Well...not exactly... other than a sped up re-release of the '61 version of Surfin'...the first two Beach Boys LP's do not feature Al in any role.

I stand corrected  :-[
[/quote]

Another "close" one is "Friends"...instrumentally, he's only on "Passing By".  And yet another "close" one is "Sunflower"...according to Desper, he's on "It's About Time", and if so, that would be it.  And, then there's "Summer In Paradise", on which he doesn't play an instrument at all.


Title: Re: Carl & The Passions \
Post by: The infamous Baldwin Organ on February 22, 2010, 06:53:10 AM
I'm surprised about 'Friends'. That doesn't strike me as a particularly complex album; plus recent recordings where you can hear Al play prove he's no amatuer.


Title: Re: Carl & The Passions \
Post by: c-man on February 22, 2010, 07:01:26 AM
I'm surprised about 'Friends'. That doesn't strike me as a particularly complex album; plus recent recordings where you can hear Al play prove he's no amatuer.

Definitely agree, but most of the tracking on "Friends" was done by Brian with members of the "Wrecking Crew".  Sometimes Carl also played. 


Title: Re: Carl & The Passions \
Post by: c-man on February 22, 2010, 07:06:25 AM
Interesting that Al played guitar on "Endless Harmony" (but not Carl?).  

According to the AFM, Carl played bass, Brian played organ, Bruce played piano, and Dennis played percussion on that one.  

And Bruce on Rhodes too I assume....Wow.  Really?  So they returned to the late '60s band recording configuration one more time on that one. That's kind of a shocker to me.  I wonder what Bruce's motivation for this was?  And who drummed, then?  I'm surprised it wasn't Dennis, since the drums were so minimal.  Wasn't aware there was true Beach Boys band performance that late in the game.  The last or nearly last one, surely.

"Endless Harmony"...according to the AFMs, it was first tracked 11/1/79 at a Rumbo session that also saw overdubbing work on "Little Girl" (the track that was used for "Sunshine").  Players on that contract are the usual "KTSA" crew of studio musicians (including Ricky on drums), plus Brian, Carl and Bruce (all listed as playing keyboards).  However, notation on the contract indicates that the three BBs (plus Ricci Martin, also on keyboards) played on the first half of the session only, whereas the remaining players recorded for another three hours.  The first song listed on the contract is "Endless Harmony", but that might not mean that was actually the first song cut that day.  What I'm getting at is, without listening to the session tape, we can't say for sure how much instrumentation was on the basic track at this point...for all we know, it might have only been the song's "A" section (Bruce alone on the Fender Rhodes).

Then there was there was a series of sessions devoted to vocal work on this song and others at Jardine's Barn, in the middle of which there was an instrumental tracking session logged as taking place on 11/10.  This was for "Goin' To The Beach" and "Endless Harmony".  Musicians on the contract (the corresponding instrument names are provided) are Carl Wilson (bass), Bruce Johnston (keyboards...correction to my earlier post), Alan Jardine (guitar), Brian Wilson (organ), Dennis Wilson (percussion), John Hobbs (keyboards), and Scott Mathews (drums).  From this, we can gather that either the "B" section for the song was laid down from scratch at this session, or this was overdubbing work done on a "B" section basic track from the 11/1 session.

Finally, Scott Mathews added more drums and two percussion doubles to "Endless Harmony" at another Jardine Barn session (12/14).

I can only guess that the point in getting all 5 Beach Boy instrumentalists on this track is because it's a musical "biography" of the band, therefore there was a certain integrity (or "vibe") that came from their presence.


Title: Re: Carl & The Passions \
Post by: c-man on February 22, 2010, 07:29:36 AM
How much of the band was on "Santa Ana Winds"?  That would be my other guess for most group instrumental performance on the album.

"Santa Ana Winds" was cut originally prior to the "Light Album" sessions...at Western Recorders on 6/27/78:  Brian Wilson (electric piano), Ed Carter (bass), Mike Kowalski (percussion), Alan Jardine (guitar), Carl Wilson (guitar), and Chuck Britz are the names on the contract.  On 8/22/78, Tommy Morgan was brought in to add the harmonica at another Chuck Britz-engineered Western session.  More work, including vocals, was done on the song during the November sessions for "L.A. Light":  this would presumably be the "early" version that's been bootlegged. 

Then, during the "KTSA" sessions, Bruce stripped the song of all the original tracks except the harmonica & the chorus vocals, and built a new track with just two acoustic guitars, string bass & brushes on snare drum, plus a string section.  Presumably, Al did the acoustic guitar work...the strings (including Igor Horeshevsky on cello and Lyle Ritz on upright bass) were added at Rumbo on 2/1/80.  It would appear that the snare drum was played by Steve Forman, at a Rumbo session logged as 2/4/80.


Title: Re: Carl & The Passions \
Post by: Foster's Freeze on February 22, 2010, 12:33:11 PM
Great info c-man!


Title: Re: Carl & The Passions \
Post by: adamghost on February 22, 2010, 02:18:34 PM
Wow.  I second that, great stuff.

I also have to wonder if, since KTSA was intended to be a band reunification album, Bruce didn't originally plan to have the whole band involved in the tracking as well, and then abandoned the idea as unworkable after that first session (where Dennis apparently was extremely distraught and could barely function).  It's really interesting to me that they had Carl on bass and Al on guitar for sessions that late in the game.

I've asked this question before...what tracks do we know Brian and Bruce played bass on, not counting the obvious ones (first two albums for Brian, PARTY for Bruce).  I know we've got Bruce on bass for "Wild Honey" and now perhaps "Marcella."  Brian MAY be the bass player on "Don't Worry Baby."  Those are the only ones I can remember.  How odd that the ostensible "bass players" in the band hardly ever played bass in the studio, but both the guitar players did.


Title: Re: Carl & The Passions \
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on February 22, 2010, 02:26:22 PM
Brian played bass on the 15BO version of "Susie Cincinnati.


Title: Re: Carl & The Passions \
Post by: Jon Stebbins on February 22, 2010, 02:29:36 PM
Brian MAY be the bass player on "Don't Worry Baby." 
Al played bass on Don't Worry Baby, Brian is on piano, Carl guitar, Dennis drums. Carl overdubs the guitar stabs.


Title: Re: Carl & The Passions \
Post by: Dr. Tim on February 22, 2010, 02:35:06 PM
The 1972 press of Pet Sounds with CATP is good except for one major hiccup.

Listen to Wouldn't It Be Nice. Mono, mono, mono, until the bridge, then lovely duophonic!

It only took me until now to double-check my issue of the CATP/PS double, which also dates from 1972.  And checked the bridge on Wouldn't It Be Nice.

Mono mono mono all the way!  (Which I hope isn't catching)

I am intrigued because what you describe isn't the first mastering mystery about Pet Sounds.  Someone else swore they had what was supposed to be a UK mono LP but that press run was done from a folded-down-to-mono Duophonic tape, so it had both phase cancellation AND bad Elvis echo.

Sometimes what happens is, if the LP is cut with a stereo lathe, and the engineer is sloppy, litle dips in volume in one channel occur for a second or two. Two famous examples: the original US pressing of Cream's Disraeli Gears - on "Deserted Cities of the Heart". Another was the original US run of the White Album, on "Cry Baby Cry."


Title: Re: Carl & The Passions \
Post by: BJL on February 22, 2010, 02:45:39 PM
Didn't Brian play bass on some of Today?  Like So Young maybe? 


Title: Re: Carl & The Passions \
Post by: Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again on February 22, 2010, 03:22:32 PM
Brian MAY be the bass player on "Don't Worry Baby."  
Al played bass on Don't Worry Baby, Brian is on piano, Carl guitar, Dennis drums. Carl overdubs the guitar stabs.

 ;D To my ears, this song contains one of  the best, most recognizable/powerful drum intros ever!




Title: Re: Carl & The Passions \
Post by: adamghost on February 22, 2010, 04:34:54 PM
Brian played bass on the 15BO version of "Susie Cincinnati.

I've talked this over with Boyd and others and they seem to think the bass credit may actually be from playing bass on the organ, and not actual bass guitar.


Title: Re: Carl & The Passions \
Post by: lupinofan on February 22, 2010, 04:46:22 PM
I am intrigued because what you describe isn't the first mastering mystery about Pet Sounds.  Someone else swore they had what was supposed to be a UK mono LP but that press run was done from a folded-down-to-mono Duophonic tape, so it had both phase cancellation AND bad Elvis echo.

Sometimes what happens is, if the LP is cut with a stereo lathe, and the engineer is sloppy, litle dips in volume in one channel occur for a second or two. Two famous examples: the original US pressing of Cream's Disraeli Gears - on "Deserted Cities of the Heart". Another was the original US run of the White Album, on "Cry Baby Cry."

At least one of the early masters used for the UK "Pet Sounds" is a fold-down of the Duophonic. I had it for years until long after the first CD version came out. It was a first pressing as it had the old Capitol label (similar to the late-1950s US-style) which had been replaced by a later variant in the UK by the time "Smiley Smile" came out. The UK 45s of the "Pet Sounds" tracks were definitely cut in mono from Duophonic tapes, with dynamic compression to make them even nicer sounding.  :-D

However, there is a UK "Pet Sounds" with the slightly later 1960s label which used the genuine mono tape. A friend had it - I taped his copy as an upgrade to mine, when the only commercially available alternative was to buy a Duophonic reissue.

The "Cry, Baby, Cry" issue is simply a momentary drop-out ("head clog") experienced when one of Capitol's stereo stampers was being cut. Again, heavily recompressed. I had a foreign stereo copy of "With The Beatles" whose right channel suffered a similar head-clog from halfway through "Til There Was You" right through to the end of side 1.

It was standard practice for several years for US Capitol to supply UK EMI with stereo material on tape, and mono material on stampers. When those stampers got worn through over-use, EMI often simply substituted the stereo tape to make a new folded-down mono stamper. (There are examples of Sinatra LPs peppered throughout the 1960s like this. The folded-down Duophonic "Songs for Swingin' Lovers" is a particular sonic joy.) That said, however, I believe this practice had ceased by 1965, so it's anybody's guess why "Pet Sounds" suffered in this way.


Title: Re: Carl & The Passions \
Post by: metal flake paint on February 23, 2010, 01:18:59 AM
I've asked this question before...what tracks do we know Brian and Bruce played bass on, not counting the obvious ones (first two albums for Brian, PARTY for Bruce). 

Not sure how "obvious" these are featuring Brian on bass: "Dance" x 3 (perhaps Nashville version too?), "I'm So Young" (Jan. '65 version), "Sandy She Needs Me", "Then I Kissed Her" and "Girl Don't Tell Me". It's likely there are others but that's all I got. Bruce isn't so obvious.

Thanks go to c-man for the above info. By the way, would you consider authoring a Definitive Instrumental Thread or are you saving this information for future archives/ESQ installments? Your investigative work is much enjoyed and appreciated by many on this board, myself included.


Title: Re: Carl & The Passions \
Post by: Loaf on February 23, 2010, 01:29:14 AM
Thanks for all this great info, guys. It makes absorbing reading for a nerd like myself.

I don't like looking at the musician credits for albums (like KTSA), with endless lists of session musicians plus the BBs guys, but you know that Dennis didn't drum on every track etc...and you start to suspect that they didn't do anything at all, being too rich, involved in divorces, lazy, etc...

So it's great to find out the tracks that they did actually play on.


Title: Re: Carl & The Passions \
Post by: lance on February 23, 2010, 02:41:27 AM
Rather than look at that way(that they were lazy, though that's definitely a valid way of looking at it) I like to think of the beach boys this way: After a certain time they ceased being a studio band and became an affiliation of songwriter producers...sometimes they used each other for their productions, other times they used others who were in orbit.


Title: Re: Carl & The Passions \
Post by: Loaf on February 23, 2010, 02:52:17 AM
Rather than look at that way(that they were lazy, though that's definitely a valid way of looking at it) I like to think of the beach boys this way: After a certain time they ceased being a studio band and became an affiliation of songwriter producers...sometimes they used each other for their productions, other times they used others who were in orbit.

I see your point, but the problem with this is that what happens when the songwriting and production is awful?

The muddy mess of Shortenin Bread on LA. The cover versions on MIU, KTSA, BB85. The songs out of the vault, the disco re-treads. Steve Levine.

If they're too lazy to play, write or produce, then why bother?

I'd rather have a song written by Al and played by the guys, than a slick radio-friendly bland piece of plastic.


Title: Re: Carl & The Passions \
Post by: Foster's Freeze on February 23, 2010, 06:34:30 AM
Great information again guys, great insight.


Title: Re: Carl & The Passions \
Post by: Mike's Beard on February 23, 2010, 10:42:27 AM
Rather than look at that way(that they were lazy, though that's definitely a valid way of looking at it) I like to think of the beach boys this way: After a certain time they ceased being a studio band and became an affiliation of songwriter producers...sometimes they used each other for their productions, other times they used others who were in orbit.

I see your point, but the problem with this is that what happens when the songwriting and production is awful?

The muddy mess of Shortenin Bread on LA. The cover versions on MIU, KTSA, BB85. The songs out of the vault, the disco re-treads. Steve Levine.

If they're too lazy to play, write or produce, then why bother?

I'd rather have a song written by Al and played by the guys, than a slick radio-friendly bland piece of plastic.
Ironically many of the songs written by Al after the "Holland" era WERE slick radio-friendly bland pieces of plastic regardless of who's actually playing on them.


Title: Re: Carl & The Passions \
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on February 23, 2010, 11:38:36 AM
Brian played bass on the 15BO version of "Susie Cincinnati.

I've talked this over with Boyd and others and they seem to think the bass credit may actually be from playing bass on the organ, and not actual bass guitar.

Eh, Boyd... what would he know ?  ;) I'll bet he told you Brian didn't play harmonica on that track either.  ;D


Title: Re: Carl & The Passions \
Post by: adamghost on February 23, 2010, 12:53:56 PM
I've asked this question before...what tracks do we know Brian and Bruce played bass on, not counting the obvious ones (first two albums for Brian, PARTY for Bruce). 

Not sure how "obvious" these are featuring Brian on bass: "Dance" x 3 (perhaps Nashville version too?), "I'm So Young" (Jan. '65 version), "Sandy She Needs Me", "Then I Kissed Her" and "Girl Don't Tell Me". It's likely there are others but that's all I got. Bruce isn't so obvious.

Thanks go to c-man for the above info. By the way, would you consider authoring a Definitive Instrumental Thread or are you saving this information for future archives/ESQ installments? Your investigative work is much enjoyed and appreciated by many on this board, myself included.

These are all new to me, though I guess I should have known he was on "Dance."


Title: Re: Carl & The Passions \
Post by: adamghost on February 23, 2010, 12:59:55 PM
Rather than look at that way(that they were lazy, though that's definitely a valid way of looking at it) I like to think of the beach boys this way: After a certain time they ceased being a studio band and became an affiliation of songwriter producers...sometimes they used each other for their productions, other times they used others who were in orbit.

I'm actually amazed they played on as much of their own stuff as they did, particularly as it's widely thought they didn't play their own instruments on their records (particularly Dennis).  Past a certain point they thought of themselves as primarily a vocal band, and so it's natural that they'd bring in better players to supplement what they can do.  What we're learning more and more is that all of the Beach Boys (except Mike) were versatile (though not virtuoso) players that could step in in almost any role if there was nobody around that could do it better...but that they were happy to have someone else do it if there was a better player in the room.  I find that really admirable.

Think about what we know they actually played on record:
Brian:  keyboards, harmonica, bass, vibes, drums, percussion -- not sure whether he played guitar on anything that was actually released or not.
Carl:  guitar, keyboards, bass, rudimentary drums, percussion
Dennis:  keyboards, drums, percussion, bass harmonica, and dabbling in almost every other instrument if he wanted it on the track.
Al:  bass, guitar, occasionally keyboards
Bruce:  keyboards, bass, mandolin (and the Wrecking Crew guys thought that he was a musician of their caliber, no small compliment that).

That's a lotta instruments -- and even Mike dived in on theremin, sax and occasional keyboards, even though he couldn't really play anything.  That can-do spirit is really inspiring.  If they wanted to cut a track, they didn't wait for Hal Blaine to show up; they just did it.


Title: Re: Carl & The Passions \
Post by: Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again on February 23, 2010, 01:40:13 PM
Admirable indeed!

And here's a cool thing about Dennis: a lot of drummers would be resentful of Hal Blaine getting acclaim as "the guy who played drums on all the Beach Boys records, because Dennis can't play" But what does Dennis do when he cuts his solo album? He gets Hal Blaine!!

He also let's The Beach Boys touring drummer Bobby Figeroua play most of the drums on his album. This is very cool because touring drummers and studio drummers are usually looked at as completely different animals, with the touring guys getting the short end of the stick.


Title: Re: Carl & The Passions \
Post by: Jon Stebbins on February 23, 2010, 01:56:20 PM
I've asked this question before...what tracks do we know Brian and Bruce played bass on, not counting the obvious ones (first two albums for Brian, PARTY for Bruce). 

Not sure how "obvious" these are featuring Brian on bass: "Dance" x 3 (perhaps Nashville version too?), "I'm So Young" (Jan. '65 version), "Sandy She Needs Me", "Then I Kissed Her" and "Girl Don't Tell Me". It's likely there are others but that's all I got. Bruce isn't so obvious.

Thanks go to c-man for the above info. By the way, would you consider authoring a Definitive Instrumental Thread or are you saving this information for future archives/ESQ installments? Your investigative work is much enjoyed and appreciated by many on this board, myself included.

These are all new to me, though I guess I should have known he was on "Dance."
Adam if those are new to you you've got to check out Craig Slowinski's site...
http://www.beachboysarchives.com/

Its absolutely the best source for session obsessives like you and me.


Title: Re: Carl & The Passions \
Post by: tomstuart on February 23, 2010, 03:11:14 PM
Yeh, whatever the reasons for pairing the two albums it was a strange decision. Surf's Up had been such a success - had the record company lost confidence in the band that quickly? Perhaps its because CATP was just so damn short. I mean, it's not actually that much longer than Surf's Up, and is actually longer than Wild Honey or Friends, but there's no getting over the fact that all you get is eight tracks - eight??! And from a band with so many great unreleased tunes, many of them recent (in particular from dennis - imagine a ten track CATP with Barbara and Wouldnt it be Nice to Live Again...)


Title: Re: Carl & The Passions \
Post by: c-man on February 23, 2010, 03:46:07 PM
Yeh, whatever the reasons for pairing the two albums it was a strange decision. Surf's Up had been such a success - had the record company lost confidence in the band that quickly? Perhaps its because CATP was just so damn short. I mean, it's not actually that much longer than Surf's Up, and is actually longer than Wild Honey or Friends, but there's no getting over the fact that all you get is eight tracks - eight??! And from a band with so many great unreleased tunes, many of them recent (in particular from dennis - imagine a ten track CATP with Barbara and Wouldnt it be Nice to Live Again...)

I think it was just part of the contract with Warner Brost./Reprise, that each of the post-1965 albums (all which had been out-of-print for a few years) would be paired with a brand-new album, starting with "Pet Sounds" and "So Tough", and priced at just an extra dollar.  A completed "SMiLE" would've been the next one, but when that didn't materialize, and when they were criticized for doing it this way, they switched tactics and paired the remaining four albums with one another for the reissues.  But considering those five albums had sold realitively poorly and hadn't been available for awhile, it seemed at the time like a win-win-win situation for the band, the label, and the fans. 


Title: Re: Carl & The Passions \
Post by: tomstuart on February 23, 2010, 04:01:56 PM
Still, i wonder why release such a short album? They had the material.


Title: Re: Carl & The Passions \
Post by: Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again on February 23, 2010, 04:12:41 PM
I wonder if they just felt they needed to rush someting out to capitalize on the success of Surf's Up?


Title: Re: Carl & The Passions \
Post by: Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again on February 23, 2010, 04:37:22 PM
Does anyone know: Did The BBs already have the Holland excursion planned when CATPST was released? Perhaps they knew they'd be trekking all the way to Holland with no clear idea of when they'd have a presentable album of results to release, so maybe they just tossed together what they had (combined with Pet Sounds to make the buyer feel they were getting a too-good-to-pass-up bargain) and got it out there just to prevent too much of a lag between releases!

I could be way off the mark here though


Title: Re: Carl & The Passions
Post by: ♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇 on February 23, 2010, 08:16:20 PM
That's a good theory.


Title: Re: Carl & The Passions \
Post by: Mike's Beard on February 23, 2010, 11:41:48 PM
CATP may have short changed the fan from a quantity perspective but then pretty much every Led Zeppelin album from around this period was on average 8 tracks and they seemed to get away with it. Still adding a BB rendition of "Sweet Mountain" or "Awake" and "Wouldn't it be nice to live again" couldn't have hurt.


Title: Re: Carl & The Passions \
Post by: tomstuart on February 24, 2010, 02:29:05 AM
I'd still say though that CATP is an essential purchase, even for the casual fan. Those last three tracks - heaven!


Title: Re: Carl & The Passions \
Post by: Foster's Freeze on February 24, 2010, 07:12:52 AM
I wonder if they just felt they needed to rush someting out to capitalize on the success of Surf's Up?

But at the time was Surf's Up really considered a success?

It seems like on more that one occasion the band blew great opportunities simply because they were not prepared for their next move.


Title: Re: Carl & The Passions \
Post by: Mike's Beard on February 24, 2010, 10:07:59 AM
Compared to the sales of "Sunflower" then yes it was a relative success. However it may have been in the back of everyone's minds just how many people were buying it for "Surf's Up" the album or just  "Surfs Up" the track.


Title: Re: Carl & The Passions \
Post by: Dr. Tim on February 24, 2010, 10:33:26 AM
In terms of sales Surf's Up was only fair, but reputation-wise it was a godsend to them.  Most critics liked it and it got a lot of both commercial and college radio play.  It made them cool again, which Sunflower was supposed to do but for whatever reason it didn't click right away.   At the time Surf's Up was, by comparison, a runaway hit for them - even though it only cracked the top 30 and there was no hit single from it.  Like them or not, two tracks getting a lot of airplay at the time were SDT (played by the rockin' boy DJs) and Disney Girls (the women DJs LOVED that song).  With CATP in my neck of the woods it was Marcella mostly you heard on the radio.


Title: Re: Carl & The Passions \
Post by: Steve Mayo on February 24, 2010, 11:08:13 AM
Does anyone know: Did The BBs already have the Holland excursion planned when CATPST was released? Perhaps they knew they'd be trekking all the way to Holland with no clear idea of when they'd have a presentable album of results to release, so maybe they just tossed together what they had (combined with Pet Sounds to make the buyer feel they were getting a too-good-to-pass-up bargain) and got it out there just to prevent too much of a lag between releases!

I could be way off the mark here though

the way you asked the question in the first sentence the answer is yes. i had a may 1972 interview in new musical express with mike and alan. alan said where he was living in holland and that the group had a studio in holland. so the move had started before catpst was released. and he mentioned doing recording there also. i don't have the article anymore but i think it was titled mysterious moves of the beach boys...something like that.


Title: Re: Carl & The Passions \
Post by: Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again on February 24, 2010, 01:09:43 PM
here's another theory!

CATPST doesn't even mention the Beach Boys on the cover and (one of the reasons I love it) sounds to my ears like the debut of some pretty damn cool contemporary band of 1972. Were Carl and Dennis attampting to steer themselves away from the Beach Boys of lore and off into new directions as a pretty much "new" band, and the record company panicked tossed in Pet Sounds to remind everyone that "this is really the Beach Boys: See, remember Pet Sounds"?



Title: Re: Carl & The Passions \
Post by: adamghost on February 24, 2010, 01:28:39 PM
I've asked this question before...what tracks do we know Brian and Bruce played bass on, not counting the obvious ones (first two albums for Brian, PARTY for Bruce). 

Not sure how "obvious" these are featuring Brian on bass: "Dance" x 3 (perhaps Nashville version too?), "I'm So Young" (Jan. '65 version), "Sandy She Needs Me", "Then I Kissed Her" and "Girl Don't Tell Me". It's likely there are others but that's all I got. Bruce isn't so obvious.

Thanks go to c-man for the above info. By the way, would you consider authoring a Definitive Instrumental Thread or are you saving this information for future archives/ESQ installments? Your investigative work is much enjoyed and appreciated by many on this board, myself included.

These are all new to me, though I guess I should have known he was on "Dance."
Adam if those are new to you you've got to check out Craig Slowinski's site...
http://www.beachboysarchives.com/

Its absolutely the best source for session obsessives like you and me.


Oh I've been there several times, just forgot about Brian on bass...waiting for C-Man to post more!


Title: Re: Carl & The Passions \
Post by: adamghost on February 24, 2010, 01:34:29 PM
here's another theory!

CATPST doesn't even mention the Beach Boys on the cover and (one of the reasons I love it) sounds to my ears like the debut of some pretty damn cool contemporary band of 1972. Were Carl and Dennis attampting to steer themselves away from the Beach Boys of lore and off into new directions as a pretty much "new" band, and the record company panicked tossed in Pet Sounds to remind everyone that "this is really the Beach Boys: See, remember Pet Sounds"?



I think you're really close here, Erik.  Carl was definitely trying to reinvent the band with Blondie and Ricky. From what I have been told, the unreleased single IN CONCERT album was also a radical reimagination of the band and that was a lot of the reason Warners rejected it in favor of a double.


Title: Re: Carl & The Passions \
Post by: Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again on February 24, 2010, 01:40:37 PM
Seeing the Old Grey Whistle Test footage and the Mess Of Help Video, they just seem like a really cool, Carl-led band, quite removed from The Beach Boys, but somehow (and in all the right ways) still The Beach Boys!

I personally wish they'd given us a few more like-minded albums between CATPST and Holland!


Title: Re: Carl & The Passions
Post by: ♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇 on February 24, 2010, 05:45:00 PM
I agree.

Quote
CATP may have short changed the fan from a quantity perspective but then pretty much every Led Zeppelin album from around this period was on average 8 tracks and they seemed to get away with it. Still adding a BB rendition of "Sweet Mountain" or "Awake" and "Wouldn't it be nice to live again" couldn't have hurt.[/quote[

Then again, Led Zeppelin was releasing 10 minute songs on those albums, so not entirely a fair comparison.


Title: Re: Carl & The Passions \
Post by: mtaber on February 24, 2010, 05:51:36 PM
I think the record company put PS with CATP because they thought they had a bomb on their hands and maybe coupling it with PS might salvage a few sales...


Title: Re: Carl & The Passions \
Post by: Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again on February 24, 2010, 06:29:53 PM
Perhaps, but it's a good album!!!! I mean, if it had been promoted correctly and in the right places, maybe it could've taken with even non Beach Boys fans!


Title: Re: Carl & The Passions \
Post by: the captain on February 24, 2010, 07:37:47 PM
I mean, if it had been promoted correctly and in the right places, maybe it could've taken with even non Beach Boys fans!
I wouldn't say "even." I'd say "especially." I think most of that album would have played better with non-BBs fans (if they didn't know it was BBs) than with BBs fans--or at least those who were reluctant for change. Not that Beach Boys fans would ever question the band...