The Smiley Smile Message Board

...to my eyes or is the "Mike's Reputation" thread gone?

Hmmm... strange. I was just going to read it... did Mike himself push a red button somewhere?

Seems it was deleted because message board participants can't talk about music without acting like name-calling elementary school children.

It was decided to remove it. Too much emotions going all over the place. Too bad, for the most part it was a healthy discussion. But if people feel getting hurt, I don't think it's sensible to let the discussion further continue.

...seems sensible. By chance I read the final few msgs just prior to its deletion. I don't know the guys involved, but at any rate the chance of its flowering again were very slim.

Could the offending posts have been deleted instead?

With the thread gone, will Claymc be back, or has the Global Moderator( who is now back to making purely musical comments) won out?

No one was asked to leave the forum, nor is anyone unwelcome on here (although in the eyes of a few members I am unwelcome). This is not about who wins or loses. The discussion got quite out of hand and that's why it had to be removed.

I certainly have no problems with it being put back with the Jerry Springer content removed, but the general tone of certain participants, including myself, combined with our strong viewpoints, can only lead to the thread going right back in the same direction.

But I will not step down as moderator because people don't like what I say, just like I don't ask anyone to leave the board because I don't like what they say.

This is not a war. It's a message board. We have opinions. We'll agree and we'll disagree. Some of us are more forceful than others. I neither condone nor condemn the actions of those in the thread who took their exchanges a little far. Perhaps, as our good friend Jon Blum said a while back, we need to put the internet down for a while and take two steps back.

This is not Rob.  This is his wife.  He is at work and he apparently didn't logout of this account in MSIE.  In fact, I know he is wondering how to deactivate this account and any info would be greatly appreciated.

That said, he told me what he posted this morning and why and I was kind of curious what was posted after he posted that and would like to know what other things were said about both my husband and me before the thread was deleted--I myself was kind of surprised it was gone.  

It's really nice that a place about Beach Boys music is a safe haven for people who like to attack people who don't even participate or even read posts at the board.  Of course, from some of the other merda I've heard about this place it's not out of place for half of the moderators, although the other half of the moderators I have NO problem with, and I'm sure everybody knows who's who.

So, what other things was I called besides someone who looks like a circus performer?  What is said about me in the secret private boards?  And why can't you say them "to my face"?

I didn't catch much of the "Springer"-type content that got the thread deleted, but it really is a shame.  For awhile at least, that thread was probably the most rational and calm Mike Love discussion I've ever seen on here. 

I can understand the hesitation in putting it back, but maybe give it some time, let everyone cool off, and see if the discussion can continue in a more peaceful manner.

:lol

WOW. The thread must have taken a mean right turn after I went to sleep.
What The ??@!?

Sounds like somebody really went off the deep end.  
I think the better question would be,tho, as previously tendered:
Why couldn't you just delete the offending posts?  


  I have to strongly disagree with you on this.
Moderators have to be above the fray. If you can't keep from getting stupid on here, then you shouldn't be a moderator. As a non-invloved poster, you're allowed to have opinions as strong as any others, but when you have the moderator position, you have to be better than that, and not post at all.  Cut and dried.

At the end of the day, no matter what we think of Love or Wilson, or Love- or Wilson-lovers, it's just a rock and roll band we're talking about. There are more important things to worry about than bickering over aging rock stars on the internet for more than a couple of minutes a day. "Let's beee friieeeennnds!"

I'm not very technical so I'm not sure if I know the EXACT way to deactivate an account. But, since you're still signed on, and you edited your post (showing you know how to navigate around), try going into the Messages section which can be found by clicking on "messages" at the top of the page. Once you are in "messages" section, send your request to be deactivated to a moderator of your choice. You can find a moderator by checking the members list, or by checking out a recent thread. Once the moderator receives your request, I'm sure they'll be able to accomodate you.

What you've just said sounds way more stupid to me than any opinion expressed in the "Mike's reputation" thread (which I chose not to be involved in, but I have to say it was a fascinating read).

A moderator is a member who has access to the almighty banhammer, and that's about it. As a member, he's able to express his point of view, and if you disagree with it, you can choose not to answer back. That's how the internet works, and if you're narrow-minded or easily offended, you might want to stay away from discussion boards.

Thank you, SJS.  I'll let Rob do the deed.

On the menu bar, where it says Home, Help, Search...etc., click "Profile". At the left of that screen is a link that says "Delete This Account". Click, follow the instructions, and you will no longer be a member.

Farewell, RobMac!  :'( :'(

If I may chime in for a moment, kids. If we're starting this whole discussion again, I'm going to delete another topic. Please respond in a more adult way folks. Even if you don't like the tone of someone else's remarks, at least try not to devaluate on the same level.


We're considering already deleting a few posts and putting it back when everything has calmed down. The topic is well worth it.


You have a point Surfer Girl. But said moderator made 2 posts in this whole 20+ page long topic. Maybe a pretty direct and strong response, but certainly not personally offending another member of this board… the responses were way more extreme for that matter because someone else chose to take it personal. Just my opinion, I know. But c’mon, the fact that some people seem to disagree with each other in a way that is not healthy anymore (and try to continue that discussion right here again) makes clear that the conflict is much deeper than just this pro-Brian/anti-Mike discussion (or vice versa).

Some people need to ckeck their bipolarity at the door.

A moderator has the right to post his/her opinion just as much as anyone else. The only thing we don't tolerate is when a moderator lowers him/herself to name calling or abuse of powers, which after reading that pathetic thread I've not seen either from Jason.

Whatever happens off this board or privately, we can't control and honestly the rest of the moderators just don't care.

That being said, Jason is a very passionate person when it comes to his favorite band. You may disagree with him, and dislike his opinions but if you continue to egg him on (or anyone, really) about his opinion there's no doubt he is going to get fired up. I see this on this board all the time with everyone.

I'm sorry to see some people leave, its the last thing we want to happen. However, I think its unfair to say they are leaving because someone is a moderator, as oppose to admitting the truth for them leaving is because they just dislike the person and their opinion. Jason may be many things, but he does a fine job as a moderator.

I have no idea what happened but it's a shame that a common interest can cause so much angst between people. It's also a shame that the many considered posts on the subject have to be lost due to the actions of a few. If anything good can come of this it's that maybe we can have a better perspective on how to treat each other. I for one don't want anybody to feel that they can't speak their minds as long as some repect can be given while doing so.

The thread will be cleaned up and brought out back to public.

Wow, it did get out of line. I had no idea. Still, I am glad to hear sprucing up the thread and de-offending it is under consideration. I don't know why this topic always ends up ugly.

I had my wife insulted back in the day associated with a like topic and it was not pleasant but I knew the poster had never met my wife so I didn't take it personally. I hope an apology to Mrs. Rob and Rob are forthcoming.

Good to hear.  The various opinions expressed concerning the changing history of Mike's reputation made for one of the most interesting discussions I have read concerning the BBs.

I'm very happy to hear this.

As am I.

Agreed. What said moderator wrote in no way deserved the OTT response that it got...or is still getting.

As "said moderator" in this whole exchange, I would like to make a few things known. And it will be my final word on the topic unless someone wants to take me to task in PMs.

I do not make any bones about my opinions. I don't make them known because I'm just waiting for reactions. I make them known for any other reason another member on here would - for the point of discussion. As far as the same comments I made yesterday, if another member on this board made the same comments, there would never have been the same response as what happened last night.

I did not personally insult anyone on the forum in that thread. Those who took offense to my comments were quick to throw insults at me, however. That's fine. I can take the heat as much as I can dish it out. But to dish out the heat and then get all in a tizzy, saying you're leaving the board because I'm the moderator, you don't like what I have to say, and I have no right to speak my mind because I'm "above all of that", then there's a problem.

And now we're at the point where members are starting to make demands and guidelines as to how they expect others to post and who should or shouldn't be on the board. And I'm left with the same viewpoint - if you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen. This is the internet. It's expected. I'm the one, who, apparently, is making all the comments that are freaking people out, yet not once have I denied anyone their right to speak their mind nor their ability to hang out on here. Discussions are fine. If they get heated, oh well. But to go to the extent that was reached last night, that's too far. My comments should have been glanced over, received one or two jabs, and been forgotten, as has happened in the past.

It's merely a personal bias. But I will be steadfast and say I did nothing wrong in that thread, and that those who were so quick to point the finger at me should turn their razor sharp judgments and stares on themselves. I did not make anyone leave the forum. I did not once say anyone was unwelcome. Everyone who said they were leaving left of their own free will. I will not, however, sit back and let other people tell me where to take myself. No one has been exiled from this board and no one was made to leave. They can all come back.

But I will never, ever compromise on this issue because I did nothing wrong.

I don't remember what any particular people said (honestly I can almost never tell any of you apart ... one screen name blends into another and another), but I remember some name-calling, insults to wives, and whatever else. Also plenty of heated--but on topic--discussion. Seems to me the former is horribly out of line, the latter isn't. There are rules to this message board. As long as everyone (moderators and members) follows them and the moderators are even-handed in enforcing them, there is no issue, right? As for the quitting, well, that happens every few months. Has happened before. Will again. Most people who leave, often with much drama, return. Some don't. Sometimes it's a shame they leave. Sometimes it isn't. Either way, the world keeps spinning.

Yeah, McCabe sent me a PM with some really unpleasant things thrown at my direction and I upped it a notch. Ooohhh boowooo. What did he expect? An official apology? LOL. If you're sending PM's with profanity, uh, be prepared to stand up the heat. This is my final word on the subject.

I recently left Doug Sulpy's Beatles board because everybody seemed to be bashing everything (in particular Paul, Beatles Rock Band and Ringo's new album). At this point I will never ever buy another Sulpy book again.

This message board on the other hand is very fun. I have learned so much information thanks to the great contributors here (way too many to mention) and I have no plans of leaving. We all have different opinions but for the most part are able to discuss them with some sort of dignity and respect for others. I was a bit taken back by Nobody (for instance) but on the other hand have made some "friends" on here (like Jay, Surfer Joe and Heartical Don).

I chose to stay out of the Mike Love thread because I accept the BB as the entire package. Every member, every album and every story told is completely fascinating to me. Even though I have only been a fan since 1999 this group has become one of my all time favorites.

And the moderators are doing a fantastic job by the way!

Wow! I haven't been on this message board for week. I didn't realise that a thread that I started would cause such a stir. I knew that people differed on their opinions on this subject but not that it was such an emotionally heated one. But I got a lot of info I was looking for, which had little to do with current emotional opinions.

Thanks!

Also, very well put.

I tend to like what that guy with Harvey Levin's picture has to say!

I had to "wiki" Harvey Levin to see who you were talking about. I have to admit that my avatar is actually an older picture of me from 1999 (same time I got into BB's and met my wife).

I just got home and saw this thread which my wife posted in and this will be my last word on this topic and then I will deactivate my account.


Here is the post I sent you:

"I am sick and tired of buttholes like you and Jason bashing a mentally ill man like he chose to be that or is faking. Mike Love might not have been a cause of his merda, but he sire as foda did not help his lot in life. That is a friggin' fact and anyone wh0 denies that is a friggin' idiot.

saying that my posts make you want to physically hurt me is friggin' offensive too."

This isn't even in the same league!

This is the offending PM I sent you, right?  It's rather mild in comparison to the response you gave me.  Like Cam's situation you've never met myself or my wife and yet you chose to insult her.  And I'm the unreasonable one?  I will admit my private message was a full blown body check.  Your response was a cross check delivered from behind with a few rabbit punches thrown in for good measure. 

This is my take on the moderator roll.  Chris Wood is correct.  A board moderator should be above the fray, including his little passive agressive brianista buttfucking reference in his name.  I never once suggested that Jason's or anyone else's right to post what they want be taken away, but the honorable thing to do would be to step down.  Admittedly, Jason did not sink to the depths that dancing bear did in this thread, but I have seen plenty of passive-agressive tinged pissiness and pettiness in past discussions that make me question whether he should be a moderator.  My recollection of the deleted thread is that Clay was the first one who said he was leaving the board specifically because of Jason.  Jason is only one of a few reasons why I'm leaving. 

It is a shame that it came to this.  The thread up to that point was a good one.  The thing that I found disturbing about their responses to the dysfunctions in Brian's and Dennis' lives is the failure on Jason's and dancingbear's part to at least acknowledge that not all of their problems (meaning Brian and Dennis) were entirely of their own making.  I don't mind debating this stuff with people who have differences of opinions, but I don't like having my own opinion dismissed.  Having said that, I could live with that and suck it up, but when you personally insult my family, dismiss the insult with "you were asking for it", and petulantly refuse to apologize to her (not necessarily to me) then you have crossed a line.  You don't get to explain away your physical threat with "we live on different continents and it should have been obvious that I was joking".  And you don't get to blame me for the insults you made. 

With that, I say good night.

For what it's worth(probably not much, sadly) I always liked RobMac's posts on this board.

Yeah, I tried that.  Only problem is there's no such link!  Great job moderating!   :h5 :thud :rock

What now, genius? 
Just ban me, for crying out loud!

Bye bye Rob.  :-D

I'll quote you with your catch phrase, the one you've been gracing, for years, everyone who happen to not agree with you:

"You just don't get it, do you?"

 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Speaking personally I will miss Rob on these boards as he was a reputable fellow who shared his opinions without crossing the 'disrespect' line, certainly treated me very well always. I personally often feel like cursing or responding harshly at posts but don't because I don't like it when people talk to me that way in real life or on the internet. Kindess, love, mercy and respect should be the credos of every post here and personally I think we've lost one poster (two if Clay doesn't come back, which I hope he does) who put those values first.

 A couple of thoughts:

(1) Posting a borderline physical threat- no, I didn't detect any particularly humorous element in "I want to smash your head against the wall"- should be a severe warning, even if done to a moderator's arch foe.  Posting an insult to someone's wife, if that was really done (I didn't see it) should be an automatic, no-brainer banning offense, and I can't believe I even have to type that. Sorry, elders, but that's a statement on the quality of moderation here. Instead, someone else leaves and the apparent offender (?) shows his sensitivity to the growing situation by taunting the guy even further in oversize type.

(2) My personal view is that the problems in that thread had a lot to do with things other than Mike Love and Brian Wilson, and the table (and the tone) had been set for it to happen for quite a while.  It didn't happen in a vacuum, and it didn't happen because one guy spoke his mind or exercised his rights.  It was the result of a building frustration.

(3) I don't claim innocence in that thread, and I apologize to the bystanders for my role in the incivility, which was a little subtler than some, but not small. Rather than say "I state my opinions and apologize to no one!" I'll just take responsibility.  I have no delusions about the importance of my opinions vs. causing a lot of heartburn.

(4) I strongly agree that moderators should not be trolls, and if expressing one's opinion regularly includes a lot of pot-stirring and belligerence and feuding and even taunting half the board with your signature (or your avatar or whatever it is), well then, maybe it's time to choose which role to play.  I've expressed this opinion in the past.  

Here's a good formula: if you've actively contributed to more than one thread here needing to be nuked, you shouldn't be a moderator.  You should be a moderatee.

(5) And this should probably have been #1- I can't believe two good posters with years of contributing are being allowed to leave- even assisted to leave- without any discussion.  Again, sorry, mods, but not a positive reflection on the tone that's been set.

So I'll say it: Rob, Clay, DON'T LEAVE.  

I wish you guys would at least compromise by sticking around and discussing things in this thread, and then maybe just taking a break rather than un-registering, and agreeing to check back in down the road to see how things are. If they aren't better, I'll quietly join you in exile.

When I think of all the great posters who used to be over here and are gone now, it makes me really sad. Some of that's natural over time, but some could have been avoided.

(6) Since I've said a bunch of negative stuff, I'll end on a couple of good vibes: one guy I don't always agree with, but whose tone in that thread should be admired, if the thread ever returns, is erik, proclaimed KokoMoses of the Kokomites, and he never lost his Kokomojo.  He posted cogent thoughts in a friendly-not just civil, but friendly- tone that made me want to re-think about things, and I felt like he read others' posts with an equal open-mindedness.  A lot of the good of that thread came from friendly spirit like his. He's here for the music, and to hang around with others who love the music. Good for him.  

(7)  rogerlancelot, thanks for the good word- returned in full.

Look, I think Mr. McCabe has been extremely rude in this message board for years. All those "You just don't get it, do you?", and treating anyone who doesn't worship the fucking Wilson Brothers like a fucking mean spirited idiot and asshole has REALLY got on my nerves.

I did what I did, won't apologize, and I'm really glad I did it. Whatever happens from now on, it was well worth it. :-D

PS: You're misquoting the head smashing post. If I had wanted to threaten directly the guy, I'd have done it. That's not what I did.

I'll try to limit the tit-for-tat responses, but I don't believe I misquoted you or misrepresented you in any way.  On my monitor it said you wanted to smash his head against the wall, I'm pretty sure. And that and other things make you a very odd candidate for calling anyone else rude. If you don't regret ratcheting things up to the present level, and take pleasure in it, that speaks for itself.

Rob & Clay,

I don't post very often, but I hope you  take a break from the board like Surfer Joe said instead of leaving it entirely.   I can honestly say that whenever I saw a post by you guys, I wouldn't skip it, even if I didn't totally agree with it.

 Also, to single out Clay for a second, I still appreciate it when he asked the board for questions when he interviewed Brian several months back.  He didn't have to do that.

Finally, if you're not striving to live by this rule, think about it:  "treat others the way you'd like to be treated."

It's still better than some phony apologies. Everyone in those last pages of that thread knew what they were doing, including you, sir. What should I say, you were rude. ;D And I'll pass without your high morals judgement, thank you.

PS: I forgot about the quote. I basically wrote "Almost every single post by Rob McCabe makes me want to smash his head against a wall, but he hates Mike Love's guts and it's his right to voice his opinion". I hope that having to read this abomination again doesn't make you waste your breakfast.  :)

Yes, but pass for what?  ;D

A free pass for answering disgusting PMs and taking it up a notch.  :-D

Apparently that's what this board is all about now.  All yours, buddy- revel in your new kingdom. Dancing Bear's woods, and guess what he does in 'em.

Oh my. I understand you folks worship Brian Wilson, but you don't have to play victim just like him. :)

As far as I remember, I was never rude to you before. You brought up the situation, again, in this thread, and I'm playing it as hard as you. Does it frustrate you? Did you expect me to read your posts and apologize or leave the board? They're not that great. ;D

I was somehow lucky enough to not get to read the offending posts, but THIS particular thread is pretty sad, and people's inability to be civil on a message board about a band they all love speaks volumes about them. Is somebody right? NO. Folks have opinions, and like Jeremy said, do unto others...
It's all rather embarrassing to have to hear (or read) supposedly grown men (women too, I guess) getting all tough over the internet. If this is even the slightest representation of the way people operate in the greater world it's no wonder it's so f***ed.

Let's stop the fighting.

Now.


Amen.

Yeah, this is pretty sad and immature stuff from ALL involved.

100% agreed Nicko.

I'm going to lock this thread now.  Then I'm going to hang my head in shame.

I'm unlocking it, let these fools fight. Just keep it in the sandbox with the rest of the sh*t.

Jeez...Everytime I'm about to add my two cents, the thread gets locked, deleted, or moved. I better type fast....No, just kidding. :police:

I wanted to address this issue to the moderators, because I see it creeping into the various threads, and I believe it is directly responsible for the conflict that occured in this recent case. And that is the playing of the "mental illness card".

I think every member on this board believes that Brian Wilson suffers from mental illness. The DEGREE or exent of mental illness is where we differ. Of course none of us knows the degree or extent; even those close to Brian over the years didn't even know - they have said as much, it is documented. However, on this board, mental illness is increasingly being used as an excuse for Brian's behavior (warranted or unwarranted - who knows?).

There are many fascinating topics regarding Brian Wilson to discuss on this message board. It's interesting, educational, and FUN! But, this is what I see happening. The topic will be something like: Why did Brian abuse LSD, marijuana, amphetimines, hashish, cocaine, heroin, cigarettes, and alcohol? There will be a number of well thought out theories presented, and somebody will inevitably post, "Because he's mentally ill." Next topic: Why did Brian scrap SMiLE? Again, numerous reasons presented, including, "Because he's mentally ill." And, this is pretty much the trend. On stage, why does Brian yawn, look at his watch, and dart off the stage before the final song is over? "Because he's mentally ill." And, then there's the most recent discussion: Why didn't Brian stand up and do what was right in crediting Mike Love for his songwriting contributions? "Because he's mentally ill."

But, that's not the problem. That's not the problem. THAT'S NOT THE PROBLEM! The problem isn't that posters want to dismiss alternative (maybe valid) theories for Brian's behavior with "Because he's mentally ill". If that's what they believe then that's what they should write. The problem is, if you don't agree to their take on Brian's mental illness, they resort to insulting, personal, and negative comments, including name-calling. These posters (and there are/were only a few) want to make you feel like you're ignorant or personally demeaning Brian Wilson, which is ludicrous. I see (and have been on the receiving end of) responses like, "You're an insensitive idiot." Or, "Can't you see Brian's mentally ill, you jerk.", Or, "Stone, you're a condesending whatever." Recently I was making a point, trying to make Brian somewhat accountable for not giving Mike songwriting credit, and somebody responded, "Sheriff John Stone, do you even believe mental illness exists?" Now, what did a question like that accomplish?

I'll tell you what it accomplishes. It pisses people off. As I stated above, everybody believes Brian suffers from mental illness, but we'll NEVER AGREE on the extent. Therefore, some people will try to make Brian more accountable for his behavior than others. The Beach Boys themselves didn't agree. Neither did Marilyn. Neither did Brian's record companies. And, of course, Melinda herself has her own beliefs. I'm not saying somebody shouldn't use mental illness as an excuse if that's what they truly believe, because obviously it was in some cases. But, if somebody chooses to put less emphasis on mental illness, and make Brian more accountable, that person's position must be respected, not subjected to personal attacks or name-calling. If somebody thinks Brian should take responsibility for his drug intake, that poster should expect to be vigorously and aggressively challenged. They should not be subjected to name-calling and profanity.

Moderators, yes, you should ask someone to ignore a post, scroll down, or click on another topic. But, that's easier said than done. The blood pressure rises, you wanna literally jump through the computer screen, or, in this case, you wanna return the insult. All I'm saying is (pompously, I guess...Surfer Joe, straighten me out!), watch out for the personal attacks, the name-calling, or the posts whose only intent is too piss someone off. I apologize for rambling....

Not to give myself too much credit (and yes, I have 3 different names on here because I keep forgetting my password) but I almost feel that I'm responsible for all this in a way. I know I can be very very annoying with my unwavering defense of Mike Love, so whatever responsabilty I hold for starting little fires and then stepping back and watching them spread.... I accept and apoligize.

One thing I can't figure out though is...... who exactly is BASHING Brian? It's been brought up several times yet I don't really see it! We all worship the man, of course, but playing around and making jokes here and there does not constitute bashing! Mike Love gets BASHED! This isn't even arguable. If we're all hyper sensetive when it comes to Brian, let's try and be respectful across the board then to both Mike as well as Dennis, Carl, Bruce, Al.... AND.... each other! I shall try to lead by example, but perversity gets the best of us all at times.

Rob, don't leave please!!!  :-\

I think it would be sad if people left because of the old Brian/Mike thing. The fact is that in any group activity such as a music group, group dynamics are complicated and often driven by the needs of the moment. I think this is especially true of The Beach Boys, who are notorious for shooting themselves in the foot business wise. I don't see this as a Brian versus Mike problem, but as a group problem. All one needs to do is follow the group's history over the years to verify this pattern. Not that any of this particularly matters any more, because The Beach Boys died when Dennis passed in my opinion. That some of the group are still touring is nice to keep the music in front of people. I used to think that it was a problem that so many people were touring Brian's music, but not any more. It's good to expose a new generation to Beach Boys music. It's about keeping the music alive these days, not the summer. :violin :violin :violin :drumroll :drumroll :drumroll :thewilsons :thewilsons :serenade :serenade :serenade :old

I agree with the Sheriff, none of us are able to say much about any current mental illness [if we knew we couldn't say], let alone past mental illness [to whatever extent, if any]. It does feel like a dodge to me sometimes, especially when used to excuse some activity in the earlier career. Not trying to start a fight just an opinion, maybe out of line, I'm not a professional. Would mental illness be an excuse or would it be an explanation or both?

I also agree with whoever said no one was bashing or ridiculing Brian in that thread [I might be proved wrong if it is reposted], maybe no one was bashing Mike in that thread either, maybe it was just a presumptive defensivness all around. I feel the BBs are/were all just a bunch nice guys trying to get along and deal in our imperfect human way with what was dealt 'em.

I hope nobody leaves, moderators deserve a hug even when people get upset with them, and I, and I hope anyone else who feels like it, apologize for any offense caused.

I did hear of eventually all of what did take place, and it is really unfortunate that some individuals thought it necessary to come attack Rob like this. Especially Denise who is a truly nice person who doesn't deserve to be insulted by people who have never even met her. I'm in agreement with the majority that I think it is wrong to bring up spouses or anyone's personal life into a public forum when discussing something as silly as the Brian/Mike issue. On the flip side of it however, I think that PMs should also not be posted publicly unless a case is bought up. It went immediately from a rather healthy, intriguing discussion into something vile and malicious. It's easy on the internet for people to misunderstand what someone is saying or let emotions get the best of them. What I tell people sometimes is what if your actually talking to someone in person, telling them all this rather then online. Would you really want to say that?

Just my 2 cents.

Peter I think this is your best post ever.

And best use of smileys! 

Don't mean to drag up anything at all just responding...
I'm not taking this as an attack, but personally I don't think I did anything wrong, sad or immature I was slightly involved in that I criticized one comment I didn't see fit (if you didn't like or want my opinion, that's too bad as most of the posts on the Mike/Brian thread were "opinion") and defended Rob and Clay (which I will do without apology and will always continue to). I find these a) just an opinion and b) just being kind and defending friends.

Too late in Rob's case apparantley, but in Clay's case I will echo this.

Bringing up PM's, unacceptable. Comments against one's partner, male or female, unacceptable. Strong opinions on Mike or Brian that are still on the "respectful" side of things, fine.

You did absolutely nothing wrong at all except for liking "Looking Back with Love." ;D

I must agree with Stone about the mental illness card being overplayed and a cop-out. A point I'd like to add meekly and humbly is that there is a certain kind of inbalance in the Wilson/Love blood as far as I know that would be, I don't want to say hereditary but certainly handed down...remember Murry's father was a very harsh man which carried to Murry and Murry stayed in bed for long periods. Brian was known to do this. Dennis and Murry had a lot in common and more than once Carl was described as a slighter version of Murry without the shouting and temper (which I only agree with for small periods). Stan beat up his cousin Dennis very badly, and Dennis married his cousin's daughter. Mike had 8 children and Brian has (adopted and natural) 6 children total. Brian and Carl had a difficult relationship later in life. Also remember Mike was institutionalized for a period, has not been on speaking terms with his father for a considerable amount of time and also doesn't talk to Stan now (I believe it's Stan although it could be Steve). There are definite patterns and you have to keep this is mind when discussing the whole saga.

TdHabib you bring up some good points. I feel bad for all the Wilson's and Love's to some extent. It seems none of them had a great upbringing and it hurt them all in one way or another. I think Tim White traced it back to Buddy Wilson who seems by far to be the least sympathetic character in the whole family.

This thread is slowly turning into a valuable one (a few exceptions excluded). I'd like to thank all of you for your thoughts on this awkward situation. A lot of valuable advise for ALL of us, and that includes us moderators. Billy, Joe, Jason and I have been talking a lot on the whole sitation of the last few days, and most of our conclusions are similar to those you have mentioned here. As for our role here. We realise very well that (being the enthousiastic fans we are, just like you all) sometimes it's not easy to simultaneously join a discussion and keep that role of supervisor in mind. All I can promise is that we'll do our very best to do a proper job as moderators.

That being said: the "History of Mike's reputation"-thread is about to be moved back to the main forum.

Please try to keep that thread "on-topic", and continue "that other discussion" in this topic in the Sandbox... thus far no-one came out as a winner here, at least let us try to gain that what (and maybe those who) we have lost back again.

This belong over there but I don't want to violate the treaty.

One of Rob's and my replys might give the impression I meant Rob when I told about someone insulting my wife. I did not. Rob and I have always had passionate but respectful debates without insulting each other or our families, as far as I remember, and will continue to somewhere I'm sure.

Maybe this was un-neccesaary but there it is anyway. I hope Rob comes back here.

Cam Cott: if you feel uncomfortable on how a specific post you wrote might be judged you can edit it yourself (or add abovementioned information). Apparently I didn't edit it, so I didn't see any harm in it anyway.


And I agree with you: I hope Rob (and others that have decided to turn their back on this forum) will eventually turn back. We don't have to become friends with everybody, or act like nothing has happened. But I can perfectly live with it, if we succeed in avoiding/ignoring those we'd rather not discuss with, and continue the discussions in a positive way.

TdHabib raised very valuable points.

Depression, and also impulsivity, have a strong genetic component to them. It 'runs in the family', often. Murry sought to alleviate his problems with alcohol; Brian did likewise (and with 10,000 other substances). Bud Wilson probably did. It is quite possible that Grandpa and Dad almost immediately regretted their violence after having perpetrated it; that is what impulsivity does to one. It's a lack of control. But it is also possible that they were absolutely unable to express regret, or difficult feelings in general. I can see a parallel between Murry becoming a soft chicken when hearing his boys making fine music, and Brian watching 'Flipper' on TV and weeping. It's a form of sentimentality that compensates for emotional problems.
Mike seemed (seems) to have been (be) in better control of his tempers... he limited (limits) himself to hurtful verbal remarks, and also lawsuits (well, the more ludicrous ones, anyway). Methods that avoid direct damage, but are harmful nonetheless. He's a more sly person. But I can well accept that he has some sort of tendency towards emotional instability as well. On the other side, he's a really disciplined trooper.

Will do, didn't want to disrupt the uncertain balance of the restored thread.

I am truly sorry for repeating myself (it's a character flaw, I'm working on it), but I think a point should be clarified.

I am seeing mental illness/heredity/parental influence being discussed - and the way some apply it directly to Brian's behavior - and that's a good thing. If you truly believe that is the case, and you need this issue to make your case/argument, go for it. But, if somebody does not agree with the "mental illness affect" as strongly as you, or at all, please do not resort to name-calling and derogatory comments.

Because you don't put as much emphasis on mental illness, as it applies to a Wilson's behavior, that does not make you ignorant, insensitive, or BEING MEAN TO THE MENTALLY HANDICAPPED! Come on, give me a break. It is nothing personal against Brian or anybody else, so don't play that card either.

I will repeat this, too. This blowup occured because of name-calling, getting personal, and using profanity. It was done as a response, just because somebody didn't agree with a post. One poster responded to another poster WHO TRIED TO MAKE BRIAN ACCOUNTABLE AND DIDN'T BUY INTO THE MENTALL ILLNESS THEORY. If you become THAT upset with a post that causes you to lash out like that, maybe it is best to step away for awhile and re-evaluate things.

Sheriff, I believe firmly that the content of the post was not what was found objectionable...rather the person (me) who made the comment. You would have been merely laughed at for the same post. The reactions to my post are down to personal bias inherent in the individuals who responded as they did. And that is now, as it was then, their problem and not mine.

Good post Don. I'm very proud of my post.

One more point is that some people rightly take offense when people blame Mike for Brian's problems. But just a thought that I'll add in a humble, meek voice that it is possible that Mike hurt Brian without knowing he was doing so. I was thinking of a personal situation where I had an argument with someone which played out with several other people, she really hurt my feelings, and then about a year later she told me half of the things I thought she said she never did and people were exaggerating and/or I was coming to the wrong conclusions at the time. I think this is what happened with Mike and Brian. They had arguments, Brian's feelings got hurt and he probably made it worse than it was. Mike probably was just saying/doing what he thought was right and what he felt strongly about. Brian in 1965-1967 (and then 10x so in the following years) was a fragile person easily upset. Hell, he cried at "Flipper" and didn't have a lot of patience in general. Mike could've easily upset Brian without knowing he was doing so or as bad as he was. Just a theory.

I think that is very possible, because I believe that most if not all hurt these guys caused each was not intentional. Another thing that I think gets overlooked is the hurt Brian and Dennis caused or put the Boys through over the years.

I totally agree, that's what I'm saying! Somebody objects to a post, but instead of responding by addressing the point(s) that they disagree with, they throw out insulting, personal comments. Then the person who was insulted retaliates and all hell breaks loose.

Not that I'm condoning insults to someone's family, or profanity, I'M NOT CONDONING IT, but your point (I think it was your point) and Dancing Bear's point is well taken. This is a rock & roll message board, and if you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen.

Well, that's the way it's always been on here...obviously the kitchen now has fewer cooks. Can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs.

Having read through the censored versions of the posts I honestly don't think Jason did anything wrong in sharing his view. I look at this and say that I may not agree with what someone says but I would rush to defend their right to say it. I see opinions here all the time that I don't share. It's never ruined my day or caused my blood pressure to go up.

My own views are pretty in the middle. If I have a bias it is one for the group as a whole not just Brian and/or Mike. Honestly I don't  go too far either way because I see the good and bad in all the Beach Boys. I'm just a fan/researcher interested in the Beach Boys. I'm here because I like to read what others have to say. If people get personally hurt or offended by what I or anyone else says I think that's for them to deal with. The only thing I don't want to see is name calling and personal attacks. Frankly people who get so invested in a message board post need to really step back and try to find some balance in their lives.

Well said.