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Smiley Smile Stuff => General On Topic Discussions => Topic started by: variable2 on January 15, 2010, 06:52:27 PM



Title: Brian on the Smile album after it collapsed
Post by: variable2 on January 15, 2010, 06:52:27 PM
In interviews after the Smile period in 66-67, Brian always dismissed the album or didn't comment, correct?  Why do you think this is?  Also, are there any instances of Brian relating to the Smile material in the years after, such as the Cocaine sessions version of Heroes and Villains?


Title: Re: Brian on the Smile album after it collapsed
Post by: b00ts on January 16, 2010, 12:13:19 AM
There was a brief instance in 2004 when he released an entirely re-recorded SMiLe and toured it many times the world over.

I'll show myself out...


Title: Re: Brian on the Smile album after it collapsed
Post by: The Song Of The Grange on January 16, 2010, 12:20:26 AM
The Beach Boys revisited Smile material for 20/20 and Surf's Up and live in The Beach Boys in Concert double LP.  Brian wasn't too involved in a lot of this stuff though.  I think he helped re-assemble Cabin Essence and Our Prayer in 1969 and he helped out a bit with the remake of Surf's Up in 1971. There was the "cocaine sessions" and the performance of Heroes and Villains at that All-Star Tribute To Brian Wilson. Then I think the next time Smile was revisited was when he started playing a couple songs live with the Wondermints.  I can't remember if BW played any Smile songs on the Pet Sounds tour.  Then of course 2003-04.  I am sure someone out there can give a much better run down than this, and I hope someone does.

Why did he dismiss the album and the era?  His reasons kept on changing through the years. That 1968 radio interview is probably the most telling explanation.  But after that he game lots of reasons why the record didn't come out: it "scared" him, he was on too much hash,  the music was too "artistic", he needed more time to finish it, the music was "bad for vocals", there was no beach boys in it, it sounded drugged out, he took too much LSD, he had a mental breakdown, there was disagreement over Surf's Up and the band nearly broke up, it was "inappropriate music" etc etc.


Title: Re: Brian on the Smile album after it collapsed
Post by: Jason on January 16, 2010, 08:51:30 AM
Brian had nothing to do with the work done on Cabinessence and Our Prayer that was performed in late 1968 for 20/20. Carl and Dennis produced the sweetening sessions for those tracks, and Bruce assisted in the vocal overdubs. The Surf's Up sessions in 1970 were initially slated to have Brian sing lead over the first movement but his voice was so far gone by that time that he gave up after two takes. He did assist with the sessions later.

Although he was present at several Beach Boys shows where Heroes and Villains was performed, Brian himself didn't play any Smile songs live until the Tribute show, then in 2001 during the Paul Simon tour he played Our Prayer, Heroes and Villains, and Surf's Up. In 2002, during the British Pet Sounds tours, he played these same songs, and in summer 2002 he added a medley of Wonderful and Cabinessence as well as You're Welcome. He played all six songs at a few shows in the USA in late summer 2002.


Title: Re: Brian on the Smile album after it collapsed
Post by: c-man on January 16, 2010, 10:15:05 AM

Although he was present at several Beach Boys shows where Heroes and Villains was performed, Brian himself didn't play any Smile songs live until the Tribute show,

Actually, that wasn't always the case at every show...Brian was present playing on "H&V" at the January '77 Largo, MD show (piano) & the March '78 Melbourne, AUSTRALIA show (bass).  When I saw them for the first time in July '79, he did leave the stage for a few songs (including not just "H&V" but also "Surfer Girl").


Title: Re: Brian on the Smile album after it collapsed
Post by: oldsurferdude on January 16, 2010, 01:21:59 PM
Brian had nothing to do with the work done on Cabinessence and Our Prayer that was performed in late 1968 for 20/20. Carl and Dennis produced the sweetening sessions for those tracks, and Bruce assisted in the vocal overdubs. The Surf's Up sessions in 1970 were initially slated to have Brian sing lead over the first movement but his voice was so far gone by that time that he gave up after two takes. He did assist with the sessions later.

Although he was present at several Beach Boys shows where Heroes and Villains was performed, Brian himself didn't play any Smile songs live until the Tribute show, then in 2001 during the Paul Simon tour he played Our Prayer, Heroes and Villains, and Surf's Up. In 2002, during the British Pet Sounds tours, he played these same songs, and in summer 2002 he added a medley of Wonderful and Cabinessence as well as You're Welcome. He played all six songs at a few shows in the USA in late summer 2002.
"...his voice was too far gone..." Given that Sunflower was released in 1970 and Brian sounded as good as ever, can you qualify that statement ?


Title: Re: Brian on the Smile album after it collapsed
Post by: Jason on January 16, 2010, 01:44:06 PM
The song by that point in 1970 was out of Brian's range. You'll note that in some tracks from Sunflower, and the Jan Berry single Don't You Just Know It, Brian's voice became a bit reedy and his higher register wasn't as easily sustained. To an extent, even in 1966 Brian had trouble with some of the notes, but we're still going on his piano/vocal track. We obviously don't know how a full version would have turned out in 1967.

I forget who made the contemporary reference, but it was to the tune of Brian being so disenchanted with how his voice sounded on his two stabs in 1970 that he became embarrassed and went back to his room, only to come back down later to help arrange the vocals for the tag. Brian also said in a 1995 interview for BBC Radio 1, and this quote is verbatim from the man himself -

"Surf's Up?!? Oh, I'm embarrassed. Totally embarrassed. That was a piece of...sh*t (emphasis) in my eyes. I was the wrong singer for it in the first place, and secondly I can't believe we would ever let a record go out like that."

I would say, from that perspective, Brian's never been satisfied with any released version of Surf's Up.


Title: Re: Brian on the Smile album after it collapsed
Post by: Ian on January 16, 2010, 07:25:04 PM
While I agree that Brian did indeed say that in 1995...The fact is that he's wrong.  Incredible vocal on that Tv show-one of the best ever


Title: Re: Brian on the Smile album after it collapsed
Post by: Jay on January 16, 2010, 07:40:17 PM
Slightly OT: That T.V. show version of Surf's Up to me represents SMiLE in a nutshell. It's everything from bliss....to heartache, and dispair.


Title: Re: Brian on the Smile album after it collapsed
Post by: rogerlancelot on January 16, 2010, 08:44:50 PM
Slightly OT: That T.V. show version of Surf's Up to me represents SMiLE in a nutshell. It's everything from bliss....to heartache, and dispair.

That whole show was really cool. I have a copy of "Inside Pop" somewhere. A great watch indeed!


Title: Re: Brian on the Smile album after it collapsed
Post by: TheLazenby on January 16, 2010, 08:48:25 PM
We all know by now that what has come out of Brian's mouth about "Smile" hasn't always been the truth...

I mean, he did claim to have burnt the tapes.  That doesn't seem to be true in the least - ESPECIALLY the "Mrs. O'Leary's Cow" material.


Title: Re: Brian on the Smile album after it collapsed
Post by: Jay on January 16, 2010, 09:32:48 PM
The song by that point in 1970 was out of Brian's range. You'll note that in some tracks from Sunflower, and the Jan Berry single Don't You Just Know It, Brian's voice became a bit reedy and his higher register wasn't as easily sustained. To an extent, even in 1966 Brian had trouble with some of the notes, but we're still going on his piano/vocal track. We obviously don't know how a full version would have turned out in 1967.

I forget who made the contemporary reference, but it was to the tune of Brian being so disenchanted with how his voice sounded on his two stabs in 1970 that he became embarrassed and went back to his room, only to come back down later to help arrange the vocals for the tag. Brian also said in a 1995 interview for BBC Radio 1, and this quote is verbatim from the man himself -

"Surf's Up?!? Oh, I'm embarrassed. Totally embarrassed. That was a piece of...merda (emphasis) in my eyes. I was the wrong singer for it in the first place, and secondly I can't believe we would ever let a record go out like that."

I would say, from that perspective, Brian's never been satisfied with any released version of Surf's Up.
No offense meant, but that "Brian's voice was to far gone" thing is ridiculous. There exists an isolated recording of Carl and Brian doing their vocal parts for Til I Die. At the end Carl and Brian both do this falsetto part. Carl does this INSANELY HIGH note, and Brian does an almost but not quite as high note. Out of the two, Carl's voice cracks first. Brian consistently hold his note perfectly.


Title: Re: Brian on the Smile album after it collapsed
Post by: Jason on January 16, 2010, 09:35:58 PM
This recording, which I've never heard and do not possess in any format, is a prime example of how Brian's voice had changed by 1970. His voice was still there but the rawness was setting in.


Title: Re: Brian on the Smile album after it collapsed
Post by: Jay on January 16, 2010, 09:41:19 PM
Truth be told, ten-twelve years of consistently singing in falsetto would change anybody's voice. But, had Brian not smoked as much as he did(or at all), I believe that he'd have probably been able to hold on to most of his voice throughout the decade.


Title: Re: Brian on the Smile album after it collapsed
Post by: Jason on January 16, 2010, 10:08:42 PM
Possibly...but most males go through a sort of vocal change in their mid-30s. Brian's came earlier due to his cocaine and cigarette use. 1974 is considered the jumping-off point.


Title: Re: Brian on the Smile album after it collapsed
Post by: XY on January 16, 2010, 11:49:14 PM
Listening to Brian's falsetto in the early 70's, "Awake" etc..., I would even speculate that he would've sung it better in 1970 than on the 66 demos. But, he probably wasn't involved with his whole heart, too nervous and uninterested.


Title: Re: Brian on the Smile album after it collapsed
Post by: Chris Brown on January 16, 2010, 11:53:37 PM
Listening to Brian's falsetto in the early 70's, "Awake" etc..., I would even speculate that he would've sung it better in 1970 than on the 66 demos. But, he probably wasn't involved with his whole heart, too nervous and uninterested.

That's what I was thinking.  We all know that Brian didn't want the song finished and release at all, so perhaps he thought that if he attempted the lead vocal and "failed," the group would abandon the song.  A weak attempt at sabotage, essentially.


Title: Re: Brian on the Smile album after it collapsed
Post by: 18thofMay on January 17, 2010, 01:14:08 AM
 I am 33 never smoked and can do his parts fine. Can hit the notes but gee they are hard to hold. His voice was going sweet till we lost him mid 70's. I will never be convinced that brians voice was on the way out in 67 his voice was great if not in my opinion finding a bit more range!! Oh and by the way the Pet sounds box set which has the "Brian sings lead" I dont think that's Brian, I think it's Carl doing Brian!


Title: Re: Brian on the Smile album after it collapsed
Post by: Ganz Allein on January 17, 2010, 07:30:56 AM
Brian had nothing to do with the work done on Cabinessence and Our Prayer that was performed in late 1968 for 20/20. Carl and Dennis produced the sweetening sessions for those tracks, and Bruce assisted in the vocal overdubs. The Surf's Up sessions in 1970 were initially slated to have Brian sing lead over the first movement but his voice was so far gone by that time that he gave up after two takes. He did assist with the sessions later.

Did Brian come up with any new parts for the SU coda when arranging the vocals?  I've read so many conflicting things - he came up with a new melody, he revived a forgotten older melody, he wasn't actually there at all, etc.  And did he actually sing on it?


Title: Re: Brian on the Smile album after it collapsed
Post by: Chris Brown on January 17, 2010, 11:21:07 AM
Brian had nothing to do with the work done on Cabinessence and Our Prayer that was performed in late 1968 for 20/20. Carl and Dennis produced the sweetening sessions for those tracks, and Bruce assisted in the vocal overdubs. The Surf's Up sessions in 1970 were initially slated to have Brian sing lead over the first movement but his voice was so far gone by that time that he gave up after two takes. He did assist with the sessions later.

Did Brian come up with any new parts for the SU coda when arranging the vocals?  I've read so many conflicting things - he came up with a new melody, he revived a forgotten older melody, he wasn't actually there at all, etc.  And did he actually sing on it?

You're right, there is so much conflicting information out there.  The most trustworthy recollection, I think, would be that of Steve Desper, who (I believe) said that Brian came down with the lyrics for the coda and did a little arranging of the other parts.  I don't think Brian sang on the coda though, aside from his original part from the '66 demo.  In the vocal credits thread I'm pretty sure it was determined that Al was the one who sang the coda lyrics.


Title: Re: Brian on the Smile album after it collapsed
Post by: Ganz Allein on January 17, 2010, 01:03:11 PM
Brian had nothing to do with the work done on Cabinessence and Our Prayer that was performed in late 1968 for 20/20. Carl and Dennis produced the sweetening sessions for those tracks, and Bruce assisted in the vocal overdubs. The Surf's Up sessions in 1970 were initially slated to have Brian sing lead over the first movement but his voice was so far gone by that time that he gave up after two takes. He did assist with the sessions later.

Did Brian come up with any new parts for the SU coda when arranging the vocals?  I've read so many conflicting things - he came up with a new melody, he revived a forgotten older melody, he wasn't actually there at all, etc.  And did he actually sing on it?

You're right, there is so much conflicting information out there.  The most trustworthy recollection, I think, would be that of Steve Desper, who (I believe) said that Brian came down with the lyrics for the coda and did a little arranging of the other parts.  I don't think Brian sang on the coda though, aside from his original part from the '66 demo.  In the vocal credits thread I'm pretty sure it was determined that Al was the one who sang the coda lyrics.

It does sound like Al on the coda.  As for the lyrics, I've also read an interview with Jack Reiely where he claims authorship of them. 


Title: Re: Brian on the Smile album after it collapsed
Post by: lance on January 17, 2010, 01:53:32 PM
I could be mistaken but I think that somewhere buried on the Stephen Desper thread(or on the Stephen Desper archived thread on www.surfermoon.com) he says that it is Brian but it is sped up.


Title: Re: Brian on the Smile album after it collapsed
Post by: armona on January 17, 2010, 05:51:55 PM
yup. I asked Stephen D. awhile back about this and he said it was Brian:

Hi Stephen,
Sorry if you've answered this before, but who sang the "A Children's Song" lyric at the end of Surf's Up in 1971? I've always assumed it was Brian. Badman's book mentions he arranged the final part, but doesn't say whether he actually sang that tag.

Thanks!

COMMENT:  Well, if you had read my book, Recording The Beach Boys, you would find on page 44 a detailed recollection of that part of the sessions for Surfs Up and the story of how BRIAN added the Children's Song line to the end of the song.  ~swd


Title: Re: Brian on the Smile album after it collapsed
Post by: Runaways on January 17, 2010, 06:07:20 PM
Carl's voice doesn't fit Surf's Up for me.  my definite version is the 04 and PC versions.  Carl's just sounds weird did brian comes in, then i relax


Title: Re: Brian on the Smile album after it collapsed
Post by: armona on January 17, 2010, 07:20:31 PM
Carl's voice doesn't fit Surf's Up for me.  my definite version is the 04 and PC versions.  Carl's just sounds weird did brian comes in, then i relax

Agreed. I love Carl's voice, but my favorite version is a homegrown sync-up of Brian's original 1966 vocal and piano to the 1966 instrumental track, ending with the 1971 coda. The history of the song is as compelling as the song itself, and having Brian sing lead through the whole thing just makes sense.


Title: Re: Brian on the Smile album after it collapsed
Post by: MBE on January 18, 2010, 01:21:56 AM
Brian sounded pretty great in 1970. I think the Surf's Up remake was done in 1971 anyway and if Won't You Tell Me is any indication he still could have nailed it. Don't You Just Know It imho was just a Baker's Man style vocal. In other words just sloppy fun. Even"Hard Time" from 1974 has Brian sounding pretty darn good. From 1975 on I'm no fan of Brian's voice but before then he was fantastic. One funny thing is that I don't find the Inside Pop version of Surf's Up to be that solid vocally. That one is too raw for me. Conversely on the studio demo from 1966 he sounds amazing.


Title: Re: Brian on the Smile album after it collapsed
Post by: runnersdialzero on January 18, 2010, 05:07:28 AM
Listening to Brian's falsetto in the early 70's, "Awake" etc..., I would even speculate that he would've sung it better in 1970 than on the 66 demos. But, he probably wasn't involved with his whole heart, too nervous and uninterested.

You nailed it. I'd be willing to bet Brian's 71 vocal for "Surf's Up" would floor any of us - I'd bet it was great. He was still more than capable. But to Brian? Considering the history of the song and the abandoned project it was part of, his very high standards of himself, and everything you just said, it just couldn't be pulled off. Like someone else said, too, it could have easily been an attempt to sabatoge it.

So sad that this one was never "properly" finished. The 71 version is great, but lawdy lawdy, what could have been...?

As far as the end of the 71 version, I'm pretty sure it's been well documented that it was totally Brian's doing. I always took it as a sort of, "Well, if you guys are gonna do this regardless of my wishes, let's do it right." I think the reprisal of "Child" was always meant to be there in one form or another. Also well documented is that it's Al doing the lead "A children's song..." vocal, not a sped up Brian.


Title: Re: Brian on the Smile album after it collapsed
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on January 18, 2010, 02:28:10 PM
yup. I asked Stephen D. awhile back about this and he said it was Brian:

Hi Stephen,
Sorry if you've answered this before, but who sang the "A Children's Song" lyric at the end of Surf's Up in 1971? I've always assumed it was Brian. Badman's book mentions he arranged the final part, but doesn't say whether he actually sang that tag.

Thanks!

COMMENT:  Well, if you had read my book, Recording The Beach Boys, you would find on page 44 a detailed recollection of that part of the sessions for Surfs Up and the story of how BRIAN added the Children's Song line to the end of the song.  ~swd

Be that as it may... when the vocal tracks are isolated out, it's very obviously Alan, something he confirmed when questioned directly about it. FWIW I always heard it as Alan from the very first time I heard the song.


Title: Re: Brian on the Smile album after it collapsed
Post by: Sam_BFC on January 18, 2010, 03:01:13 PM
In saying Brian added the line to the song, does he actually mean he did this directly by singing it or just that he dictated it be added?



Title: Re: Brian on the Smile album after it collapsed
Post by: pixletwin on January 18, 2010, 03:19:13 PM
In saying Brian added the line to the song, does he actually mean he did this directly by singing it or just that he dictated it be added?



Reading Stephen's quote it reads to me as though he isreferring to Brian supplying the lyrics and direction.. NOT the actual performance.


Title: Re: Brian on the Smile album after it collapsed
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on January 18, 2010, 03:31:20 PM
In saying Brian added the line to the song, does he actually mean he did this directly by singing it or just that he dictated it be added?



Reading Stephen's quote it reads to me as though he isreferring to Brian supplying the lyrics and direction.. NOT the actual performance.

In the book, Steve states that Brian sang those lines.


Title: Re: Brian on the Smile album after it collapsed
Post by: TdHabib on January 18, 2010, 04:40:06 PM
Bear in mind there was actually another line that wasn't used on the coda: "The father's life is done, and the children carry on."


Title: Re: Brian on the Smile album after it collapsed
Post by: Sheriff John Stone on January 18, 2010, 06:38:52 PM
One thing I always found interesting was Brian's dwindling use of The Wrecking Crew after the collapse of SMiLE. Did the construction of his home studio have anything to do with that? I mean, could you invite those guys over to your house to record? Did Brian do that? Could the home studio accomodate many musicians?

Brian's production got simpler and simpler with Smiley Smile, then Wild Honey, and finally Friends. You could even include his Surf Up's stuff into that. It has been written in books that this was a conscious attempt to go with the simpler "stripped" production? Was it a conscious choice, or was it because he didn't have access to The Wrecking Crew, for whatever reason?


Title: Re: Brian on the Smile album after it collapsed
Post by: variable2 on January 18, 2010, 06:47:27 PM
One thing I always found interesting was Brian's dwindling use of The Wrecking Crew after the collapse of SMiLE. Did the construction of his home studio have anything to do with that? I mean, could you invite those guys over to your house to record? Did Brian do that? Could the home studio accomodate many musicians?

Brian's production got simpler and simpler with Smiley Smile, then Wild Honey, and finally Friends. You could even include his Surf Up's stuff into that. It has been written in books that this was a conscious attempt to go with the simpler "stripped" production? Was it a conscious choice, or was it because he didn't have access to The Wrecking Crew, for whatever reason?

he just got tired of making every song a big production with a lot of instrumentation


Title: Re: Brian on the Smile album after it collapsed
Post by: Sheriff John Stone on January 18, 2010, 06:59:45 PM
One thing I always found interesting was Brian's dwindling use of The Wrecking Crew after the collapse of SMiLE. Did the construction of his home studio have anything to do with that? I mean, could you invite those guys over to your house to record? Did Brian do that? Could the home studio accomodate many musicians?

Brian's production got simpler and simpler with Smiley Smile, then Wild Honey, and finally Friends. You could even include his Surf Up's stuff into that. It has been written in books that this was a conscious attempt to go with the simpler "stripped" production? Was it a conscious choice, or was it because he didn't have access to The Wrecking Crew, for whatever reason?

he just got tired of making every song a big production with a lot of instrumentation

And I've often wondered why (thinking out loud)....

First, Brian was so successful with those productions - commercially and critically. Second, when you heard him in the studio with those guys, he appeared to be motivated and driven by THEIR creativity and musicianship. And thirdly, I think Brian genuinely liked the guys and they him.


Title: Re: Brian on the Smile album after it collapsed
Post by: Jay on January 18, 2010, 07:21:39 PM
This has also puzzled me. If you document the Smiley Smile through Friends period, it becomes obvious just how quickly Brian lost interest. It's not that he just long interest, but how fast the process was.


Title: Re: Brian on the Smile album after it collapsed
Post by: MBE on January 18, 2010, 08:30:49 PM
This has also puzzled me. If you document the Smiley Smile through Friends period, it becomes obvious just how quickly Brian lost interest. It's not that he just long interest, but how fast the process was.
I think Brian enjoyed being a Beach Boy on those three albums. Sunflower as well. I think he was working with the other band members because this was a period of genuine unity and the whole band was starting to really come into their own. I think Brian enjoyed being a part of the band and not having to lead it all the time.

What is interesting is the way his interest ran hot and cold during the 20/20, Surf's Up, and Spring sessions. What he did on those ranks among his best work but he couldn't be counted on to be there. By So Tough and Holland he was more obviously troubled but even then when he showed up it was good music.


Title: Re: Brian on the Smile album after it collapsed
Post by: TdHabib on January 19, 2010, 11:08:10 AM
As far as I know Brian was HEAVILY involved in "Friends," it was just cool out music. And it's just a beautiful album


Title: Re: Brian on the Smile album after it collapsed
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on January 19, 2010, 12:35:55 PM
What is interesting is the way his interest ran hot and cold during the 20/20, Surf's Up, and Spring sessions. What he did on those ranks among his best work but he couldn't be counted on to be there. By So Tough and Holland he was more obviously troubled but even then when he showed up it was good music.

I stand to be corrected, but to my current knowledge, the song on CATP Brian was most heavily involved with (including performing) was "He Come Down".


Title: Re: Brian on the Smile album after it collapsed
Post by: Dancing Bear on January 19, 2010, 12:36:43 PM
I think Brian was the main creator behind every song in Friends, except for the Dennis' tracks and (maybe) the Diamond Head jam. But this time I guess he brought the basics of the songs to the studio and the rest of the group helped him finishing and producing them. Like someone said, he had stopped finishing things. At that point in time, I don't know if it was more a problem to concentrate or carry alone the load, than lacking interest in the project. But his hands are all over Friends.


Title: Re: Brian on the Smile album after it collapsed
Post by: Jason on January 19, 2010, 12:46:44 PM
I stand to be corrected, but to my current knowledge, the song on CATP Brian was most heavily involved with (including performing) was "He Come Down".

Didn't Brian produce some sessions for You Need A Mess Of Help To Stand Alone before Carl came in and fleshed out the work? If I remember correctly, the gruff backing vocal on that was Brian as well. He Come Down is the obvious one, you can hear him all over the backing vocals. The tune is presumably his too, with Al and Michael writing the lyrics. Apparently he's in the backing vocals on Marcella but I can't hear him.


Title: Re: Brian on the Smile album after it collapsed
Post by: Sheriff John Stone on January 19, 2010, 12:54:21 PM
This has also puzzled me. If you document the Smiley Smile through Friends period, it becomes obvious just how quickly Brian lost interest. It's not that he just long interest, but how fast the process was.
I think Brian enjoyed being a Beach Boy on those three albums. Sunflower as well. I think he was working with the other band members because this was a period of genuine unity and the whole band was starting to really come into their own. I think Brian enjoyed being a part of the band and not having to lead it all the time.

 

And, I always found that disheartening. Oh, not because Brian was "enjoying" himself working with the others and not having to lead, but because I believe this was the first step into his decline.

Brian had long since stopped touring, the years of churning out multiple albums per year appeared to be passing - basically Brian had a lot of time on his hands. When I add up the total minutes of new music that Brian was releasing during some of those years, from somebody as prolific as Brian, well, I just think opportunities were missed; he was still so young relatively speaking....


Title: Re: Brian on the Smile album after it collapsed
Post by: MBE on January 19, 2010, 08:20:58 PM
What is interesting is the way his interest ran hot and cold during the 20/20, Surf's Up, and Spring sessions. What he did on those ranks among his best work but he couldn't be counted on to be there. By So Tough and Holland he was more obviously troubled but even then when he showed up it was good music.

I stand to be corrected, but to my current knowledge, the song on CATP Brian was most heavily involved with (including performing) was "He Come Down".
He Came Down has grown on me over time and yes Brian seems to have been a big part of it. You can hear him sing on You Need A Mess Of Help and Marcella. Maybe Cuddle Up. I know Bruce said he watched Brian produce You Need A Mess Of Help in a 1972 review he did for the album.


Title: Re: Brian on the Smile album after it collapsed
Post by: MBE on January 19, 2010, 08:31:50 PM
This has also puzzled me. If you document the Smiley Smile through Friends period, it becomes obvious just how quickly Brian lost interest. It's not that he just long interest, but how fast the process was.
I think Brian enjoyed being a Beach Boy on those three albums. Sunflower as well. I think he was working with the other band members because this was a period of genuine unity and the whole band was starting to really come into their own. I think Brian enjoyed being a part of the band and not having to lead it all the time.

 

And, I always found that disheartening. Oh, not because Brian was "enjoying" himself working with the others and not having to lead, but because I believe this was the first step into his decline.

Brian had long since stopped touring, the years of churning out multiple albums per year appeared to be passing - basically Brian had a lot of time on his hands. When I add up the total minutes of new music that Brian was releasing during some of those years, from somebody as prolific as Brian, well, I just think opportunities were missed; he was still so young relatively speaking....
Well I look at it this way. I like the group sounds of the period and some of my favorite Brian stuff was recorded between 1967-74. Do I wish Brian had done more before his voice gave out? Of course but I'm happy for what I have and also again must stress how much I love that mid period music from him and the others.


Title: Re: Brian on the Smile album after it collapsed
Post by: Jim V. on January 20, 2010, 12:32:01 AM
So Andrew, you're saying that Brian contributed more to "He Come Down" than "You Need A Mess Of Help To Stand Alone" and "Marcella"? That's kinda weird.

And a little bit more off topic, what did he do vocally and/or instrumentally on Holland and L.A.?

On Holland, I'm pretty sure he played most instruments on Funky Pretty and wrote Sail On Sailor but didn't play on nor sang on the finished version. And then there was his goofy Magic Transistor thing on the extra EP.

And then on L.A., did he do anything at all? If I remember correctly, on Good Timin' he played piano possibly? But no vocals?  And I guess thats it. His "contributions" to the album were Good Timin' and Shortnin' Bread but he wasn't on Shortnin' Bread vocally or instrumentally right?

Sorry to take this off track, but I just wanna see if I got this stuff right.


Title: Re: Brian on the Smile album after it collapsed
Post by: adamghost on January 20, 2010, 02:30:38 AM
So Andrew, you're saying that Brian contributed more to "He Come Down" than "You Need A Mess Of Help To Stand Alone" and "Marcella"? That's kinda weird.

And a little bit more off topic, what did he do vocally and/or instrumentally on Holland and L.A.?

On Holland, I'm pretty sure he played most instruments on Funky Pretty and wrote Sail On Sailor but didn't play on nor sang on the finished version. And then there was his goofy Magic Transistor thing on the extra EP.

And then on L.A., did he do anything at all? If I remember correctly, on Good Timin' he played piano possibly? But no vocals?  And I guess thats it. His "contributions" to the album were Good Timin' and Shortnin' Bread but he wasn't on Shortnin' Bread vocally or instrumentally right?

Sorry to take this off track, but I just wanna see if I got this stuff right.

Not at all man, and I'm chiming in here because we hashed a lot of this stuff out in the vocal credits thread last year and I just went back and looked at the information yesterday and it's fresh in my mind.

On CATP, there was a long discussion about whether one of the gruff vocals was Brian and the conclusion was that there were at least three identifiable Carl vocals on there and possibly one more person way back in the mix who we couldn't identify.  Byron Preiss' book suggested Brian played synthesizer and percussion on "Marcella," though other than the opening chord I don't remember there actually being any synthesizer on that one. 

I don't know about HOLLAND but the only Brian involvement I'm aware of on the released album are the bulk of "Funky Pretty," some of the keyboards on "Fairy Tale" and the backing vocal on "California."

L.A. we also hashed this question out:  we've confirmed that Brian IS singing on "Angel Come Home."  We've confirmed that he is NOT on "Here Comes The Night," "Baby Blue," or "Goin' South."  He is probably not on "Sumahama" based on a comment Carl made in an interview indicating that was just Carl and Bruce, and it may be that he is not on "Shortenin' Bread" either -- there's conflicting information on that one.  The consensus was that Brian played piano on "Good Timin'" but did not sing on it.  That leaves "Love Surrounds Me", "Full Sail" and "Lady Lynda."  I had access to vocals-only mixes for the CWF foundation show to arrange "Sail" for Carnie and Wendy and based on that I'm pretty certain Brian is not on that one, though Geoffrey Cushing-Murray and Dennis may possibly be (though on the balance I doubt it in Dennis' case).  It's not out of the question that he's on the other two songs, particularly as "Lynda" has many vocal parts that IIRC predate the L.A. sessions.

The bottom line is we only know for sure that Brian sings on "Angel Come Home," and he probably plays piano on "Good Timin'".  But that may be it.


Title: Re: Brian on the Smile album after it collapsed
Post by: c-man on January 20, 2010, 03:07:59 AM
One thing I always found interesting was Brian's dwindling use of The Wrecking Crew after the collapse of SMiLE. Did the construction of his home studio have anything to do with that? I mean, could you invite those guys over to your house to record? Did Brian do that? Could the home studio accomodate many musicians?

Brian's production got simpler and simpler with Smiley Smile, then Wild Honey, and finally Friends. You could even include his Surf Up's stuff into that. It has been written in books that this was a conscious attempt to go with the simpler "stripped" production? Was it a conscious choice, or was it because he didn't have access to The Wrecking Crew, for whatever reason?

Brian used the "Crew" heavily on "Friends", "20/20" and "Sunflower".  In fact, so did the other Boys.  Just not Carol Kaye.  :)


Title: Re: Brian on the Smile album after it collapsed
Post by: c-man on January 20, 2010, 03:14:05 AM
So Andrew, you're saying that Brian contributed more to "He Come Down" than "You Need A Mess Of Help To Stand Alone" and "Marcella"? That's kinda weird.

And a little bit more off topic, what did he do vocally and/or instrumentally on Holland and L.A.?

On Holland, I'm pretty sure he played most instruments on Funky Pretty and wrote Sail On Sailor but didn't play on nor sang on the finished version. And then there was his goofy Magic Transistor thing on the extra EP.

And then on L.A., did he do anything at all? If I remember correctly, on Good Timin' he played piano possibly? But no vocals?  And I guess thats it. His "contributions" to the album were Good Timin' and Shortnin' Bread but he wasn't on Shortnin' Bread vocally or instrumentally right?

Sorry to take this off track, but I just wanna see if I got this stuff right.

Not at all man, and I'm chiming in here because we hashed a lot of this stuff out in the vocal credits thread last year and I just went back and looked at the information yesterday and it's fresh in my mind.

On CATP, there was a long discussion about whether one of the gruff vocals was Brian and the conclusion was that there were at least three identifiable Carl vocals on there and possibly one more person way back in the mix who we couldn't identify.  Byron Preiss' book suggested Brian played synthesizer and percussion on "Marcella," though other than the opening chord I don't remember there actually being any synthesizer on that one. 

I don't know about HOLLAND but the only Brian involvement I'm aware of on the released album are the bulk of "Funky Pretty," some of the keyboards on "Fairy Tale" and the backing vocal on "California."

L.A. we also hashed this question out:  we've confirmed that Brian IS singing on "Angel Come Home."  We've confirmed that he is NOT on "Here Comes The Night," "Baby Blue," or "Goin' South."  He is probably not on "Sumahama" based on a comment Carl made in an interview indicating that was just Carl and Bruce, and it may be that he is not on "Shortenin' Bread" either -- there's conflicting information on that one.  The consensus was that Brian played piano on "Good Timin'" but did not sing on it.  That leaves "Love Surrounds Me", "Full Sail" and "Lady Lynda."  I had access to vocals-only mixes for the CWF foundation show to arrange "Sail" for Carnie and Wendy and based on that I'm pretty certain Brian is not on that one, though Geoffrey Cushing-Murray and Dennis may possibly be (though on the balance I doubt it in Dennis' case).  It's not out of the question that he's on the other two songs, particularly as "Lynda" has many vocal parts that IIRC predate the L.A. sessions.

The bottom line is we only know for sure that Brian sings on "Angel Come Home," and he probably plays piano on "Good Timin'".  But that may be it.
Brian's on the "Shortenin' Bread" track (piano and Moog).  That basic track was recorded months before the album's vocal sessions.  Also, I think he's on "Baby Blue", just not the high falsetto.  I think he sings a lower part in the middle.  Those vocals were apparently cut at Criteria in Miami.  The tag vocals were presumably added back in L.A. later.


Title: Re: Brian on the Smile album after it collapsed
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on January 20, 2010, 11:07:24 AM
So Andrew, you're saying that Brian contributed more to "He Come Down" than "You Need A Mess Of Help To Stand Alone" and "Marcella"? That's kinda weird.

That's my current understanding.


Title: Re: Brian on the Smile album after it collapsed
Post by: TdHabib on January 20, 2010, 12:37:22 PM
Ron Altbach on "Lady Lynda" from a youtube comment:
Quote
I co-wrote this with Al. We wrote it in Big Sur in 1976 The only BBoys on the vocals are Al and Mike. Bobby Figueroa, Eddie Carter, Eddie Tuleja and I were the back-up vocals. The electric wurlitzer piano was originally the sound my band King Harvest used on Dancing in the Moonlight. So, yes, this was in the same kind of non-bboys production that Al and I did on MIU. And we had a great time doing it. Ron Altbach
I don't know if he's referring to the final version, though.


Title: Re: Brian on the Smile album after it collapsed
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on January 20, 2010, 12:53:08 PM
Probably not - there was a session for an early version at Brother in summer 1977 (which might be the version heard in the background of a scene in the Almost Summer movie).


Title: Re: Brian on the Smile album after it collapsed
Post by: adamghost on January 20, 2010, 01:13:54 PM
C-Man...I've heard the isolated "Baby Blue" vocals and I'm pretty certain Brian isn't in there.

Are you sure the piano and moog performance on "Shortenin' Bread" is the same track used on L.A.?  Because I've heard an earlier version -- with prominent moog -- that Brian is definitely on.  But the L.A. track is a totally different recording, though it's the same arrangement.

It wouldn't surprise me if "Lady Lynda" featured the guys in the touring band.  It's a lovely performance, but tonally different from a lot of the rest of the album.  Of course, the rest of the album is mostly Carl and Bruce (and sometimes Dennis), so that doesn't tell us much either.



Title: Re: Brian on the Smile album after it collapsed
Post by: adamghost on January 20, 2010, 01:16:46 PM
Actually I'm going to amend my earlier statement...I can't say for absolute certainty that Brian isn't on the verse vocals for "Baby Blue." 


Title: Re: Brian on the Smile album after it collapsed
Post by: Mr. Cohen on January 20, 2010, 02:29:22 PM
Quote
Byron Preiss' book suggested Brian played synthesizer and percussion on "Marcella," though other than the opening chord I don't remember there actually being any synthesizer on that one.

There was a weird kind of synthesizer they used to get that strange electric bass sound you hear throughout the song (up until the piano and sleigh bells fade). Brian probably played that.


Title: Re: Brian on the Smile album after it collapsed
Post by: Mr. Cohen on January 20, 2010, 02:33:00 PM
Speaking of "Marcella", I still don't understand how it wasn't hit. Maybe if they had released it in '74? The song was very '70s sounding yet decidedly within the Beach Boys idiom. No wonder Brian stopped trying to make hits for a couple of years after that.


Title: Re: Brian on the Smile album after it collapsed
Post by: c-man on January 20, 2010, 03:53:14 PM

Are you sure the piano and moog performance on "Shortenin' Bread" is the same track used on L.A.?  Because I've heard an earlier version -- with prominent moog -- that Brian is definitely on.  But the L.A. track is a totally different recording, though it's the same arrangement.


Adam, I know which one you're talking about...at least I think so...the "Adult Child" version...that one predates the "L.A. Light" version, the track of which was cut in January '78 (by Brian, Dennis, Guercio, Billy Hinsche, Chuck Crane, Sterling Smith, and a horn section lead by Michael Andreas).  Other stuff was added later (such as the wailing lead guitar by Jimmy Lyon). 


Title: Re: Brian on the Smile album after it collapsed
Post by: adamghost on January 20, 2010, 04:08:15 PM
OK, I trust you on that.  So I'm assuming then it was just the vocals on "Shortenin' Bread" that were cut while Brian was at Brotman then?  So that would give us Brian on piano on two songs, vocals on one, with the jury still out on whether he sang on the 2nd verse of "Baby Blue" or not, and "Love Surrounds Me" still a question mark.


Title: Re: Brian on the Smile album after it collapsed
Post by: c-man on January 20, 2010, 04:40:29 PM
OK, I trust you on that.  So I'm assuming then it was just the vocals on "Shortenin' Bread" that were cut while Brian was at Brotman then?  So that would give us Brian on piano on two songs, vocals on one, with the jury still out on whether he sang on the 2nd verse of "Baby Blue" or not, and "Love Surrounds Me" still a question mark.

Yeah, I'd say so.  Back in a '79 interview Bruce (or maybe Carl?) said Brian sang on "Angel Come Home" and "other songs".  Those two Dennis tracks (and/or MAYBE "Lady Lynda") would be it.  FYI, Carl stated in a radio interview from the same year that some of the "Lady Lynda" final vocals were cut in Monterey. 


Title: Re: Brian on the Smile album after it collapsed
Post by: Sheriff John Stone on January 20, 2010, 05:50:27 PM
One thing I always found interesting was Brian's dwindling use of The Wrecking Crew after the collapse of SMiLE. Did the construction of his home studio have anything to do with that? I mean, could you invite those guys over to your house to record? Did Brian do that? Could the home studio accomodate many musicians?

Brian's production got simpler and simpler with Smiley Smile, then Wild Honey, and finally Friends. You could even include his Surf Up's stuff into that. It has been written in books that this was a conscious attempt to go with the simpler "stripped" production? Was it a conscious choice, or was it because he didn't have access to The Wrecking Crew, for whatever reason?

Brian used the "Crew" heavily on "Friends", "20/20" and "Sunflower".  In fact, so did the other Boys.  Just not Carol Kaye.  :)



Do you know where those respective albums were recorded? Can I assume they were no longer using Brian's home studio?


Title: Re: Brian on the Smile album after it collapsed
Post by: TdHabib on January 20, 2010, 06:42:09 PM
Speaking of "Marcella", I still don't understand how it wasn't hit. Maybe if they had released it in '74? The song was very '70s sounding yet decidedly within the Beach Boys idiom. No wonder Brian stopped trying to make hits for a couple of years after that.
If it was taken at the tempo they did it on the In Concert album it would've at least had a very good chance. It's a damn good song, just taken a bit too slow on the CATP album for my tastes.


Title: Re: Brian on the Smile album after it collapsed
Post by: c-man on January 20, 2010, 07:10:15 PM
One thing I always found interesting was Brian's dwindling use of The Wrecking Crew after the collapse of SMiLE. Did the construction of his home studio have anything to do with that? I mean, could you invite those guys over to your house to record? Did Brian do that? Could the home studio accomodate many musicians?

Brian's production got simpler and simpler with Smiley Smile, then Wild Honey, and finally Friends. You could even include his Surf Up's stuff into that. It has been written in books that this was a conscious attempt to go with the simpler "stripped" production? Was it a conscious choice, or was it because he didn't have access to The Wrecking Crew, for whatever reason?

Brian used the "Crew" heavily on "Friends", "20/20" and "Sunflower".  In fact, so did the other Boys.  Just not Carol Kaye.  :)



Do you know where those respective albums were recorded? Can I assume they were no longer using Brian's home studio?

Sometimes Brian's home studio, sometimes places like Gold Star and I.D. Sound.  But they definitely used "the Crew" for some sessions at Brian's ("This Whole World", "Tears In The Morning" for instance).


Title: Re: Brian on the Smile album after it collapsed
Post by: adamghost on January 20, 2010, 07:48:32 PM
I've always suspected Brian on LADY LYNDA myself.  There's some hoarse vocals buried in that track.  I'm just going by the folks that say it was the touring band...I'd buy that too.

I can't pick him out on "Angel Come Home" and those vocals are similar to the vocals on the verses of "Baby Blue" and "Love Surrounds Me," so if he's on "Angel" he could be on the other two.  I thought for  years the falsetto on "Baby Blue" was Brian, but Alan Boyd played me a vocals-only mix a few years back and it was clearly Carl.


Title: Re: Brian on the Smile album after it collapsed
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on January 21, 2010, 12:32:53 AM
One thing I always found interesting was Brian's dwindling use of The Wrecking Crew after the collapse of SMiLE. Did the construction of his home studio have anything to do with that? I mean, could you invite those guys over to your house to record? Did Brian do that? Could the home studio accomodate many musicians?

Brian's production got simpler and simpler with Smiley Smile, then Wild Honey, and finally Friends. You could even include his Surf Up's stuff into that. It has been written in books that this was a conscious attempt to go with the simpler "stripped" production? Was it a conscious choice, or was it because he didn't have access to The Wrecking Crew, for whatever reason?

Brian used the "Crew" heavily on "Friends", "20/20" and "Sunflower".  In fact, so did the other Boys.  Just not Carol Kaye.  :)



Do you know where those respective albums were recorded? Can I assume they were no longer using Brian's home studio?

Check here (and many thanks to c-man for a LOT of the session info):

http://www.btinternet.com/~bellagio/gigs.html (http://www.btinternet.com/~bellagio/gigs.html)

Up to about 1964, the dates are mostly for track and vocals, thereafter the dates indicated are for an instrumental session unless otherwise indicated .


Title: Re: Brian on the Smile album after it collapsed
Post by: Nicko on January 21, 2010, 04:00:15 AM
I think Brian was the main creator behind every song in Friends, except for the Dennis' tracks and (maybe) the Diamond Head jam. But this time I guess he brought the basics of the songs to the studio and the rest of the group helped him finishing and producing them. Like someone said, he had stopped finishing things. At that point in time, I don't know if it was more a problem to concentrate or carry alone the load, than lacking interest in the project. But his hands are all over Friends.

Do you include Anna Lea, the Healer in that? As Mike's name is first in the credits, I've always assumed (maybe wrongly) that this might be mostly Mike's tune like Let the Wind Blow.


Title: Re: Brian on the Smile album after it collapsed
Post by: Dancing Bear on January 21, 2010, 07:05:40 AM
I think Brian was the main creator behind every song in Friends, except for the Dennis' tracks and (maybe) the Diamond Head jam. But this time I guess he brought the basics of the songs to the studio and the rest of the group helped him finishing and producing them. Like someone said, he had stopped finishing things. At that point in time, I don't know if it was more a problem to concentrate or carry alone the load, than lacking interest in the project. But his hands are all over Friends.

Do you include Anna Lea, the Healer in that? As Mike's name is first in the credits, I've always assumed (maybe wrongly) that this might be mostly Mike's tune like Let the Wind Blow.
Good call.


Title: Re: Brian on the Smile album after it collapsed
Post by: Mr. Cohen on January 21, 2010, 09:38:30 AM
Another weird story I somehow remember: "Anna Lee, the Healer" was written by Brian and Mike together in about 10-20 minutes. Mike had just gotten back from India and the two got together to try and write a song. After messing around aimlessly for a little bit, the idea for the song just popped up out of nowhere and was finished quickly. So, the credit for the song is probably pretty evenly split.