The Smiley Smile Message Board

Disclaimer: I'm going out on a limb here, but this strikes me as an interesting topic. If you have no interest, or if this offends you, please don't take it personally. I am also gay, so yes, that was a starting point. This isn't going to be a political post, but it will deal somewhat with sex. Proceed with caution.

So, that's out of the way.

Is there any straighter band than the Beach Boys? This might seem like an odd question -- more people would probably ask if there was any whiter band. But the guys actually connected closely to black culture in various ways -- the Chuck Berry ripoffs, Mike's love of R&B, and the eventual drafting of two South Africans into the band.

But it strikes me that the Beach Boys are profoundly straight -- both straitlaced and non-gay. (Or what's considered "gay" culturally -- think glam rock, soul divas, the Pet Shop Boys.) There is not a trace of camp in the music, and precious little irony. They are -- and I think this is the core of the issue -- non-sexual. Even as masculine a band as the Rolling Stones flirted with androgyny -- but the Stones were a profoundly sexual band. They were going to get down with someone.

The Beach Boys (with an exception I will get to in good time) were practically castratos onstage and record. They sang like a church choir. Mike, despite his multiple marriages, never exactly acted macho onstage. Brian was good looking enough, but scared. (And let's face it -- the most sexual of Brian's songs suggest he'd like nothing more than some good heavy petting and a milkshake.) Carl was distant. And Bruce and Al -- well, they weren't exactly overflowing with testosterone.

The exception was Dennis -- who by being sexual at all is the "queerest" of the group by default. Don't believe me? Who stalked around the stage half naked? Who offered himself wholly to the screaming fans? Who actually -- in the most caring and cute way -- acted like a stereotypical diva? It was Dennis. I'm not suggesting he was at all gay -- although he probably tried some weird stuff over the years. But Dennis was the closest the group got to a Jagger / Bowie / Madonna figure -- someone who could summon that raw energy onstage.

For most of the time, though, the group was as straitlaced as could be imagined. And, as I said, without irony or camp. Consider their opponents at the time -- the Beatles had Brian Epstein (and a political revolutionary in Lennon). We've talked about the Stones. Look at Pink Floyd and Roger Waters's onstage dramas. These were all British bands, of course, and all far more acquainted with irony and play-acting.

The actual gay connections to the group are few and far between. Jack Reiley, I guess. (And he did help write "Day in the Life of a Tree," which is slightly camp.) Brian loves Elton John with great devotion. There have been rumors about others. You might as well ask about the straight connections in the group -- they have married quite a few times, but if "Lady Lynda" is your idea of a passionate love ballad, well ...

For all BBs sing about girls, actual romantic passion in the songs is almost always idealized. I wonder if that's one of the reasons they have relatively few female fans these days -- the music doesn't treat women as equals -- it puts them on the levels of unknowable deities. (Dennis, once again, excepted.) And because the music is so sincere, so straight-faced, it doesn't attract the most diverse following. It mainly attracts other whimsical white guys. And musicians.

The problem with "queering" the BBs -- or taking a look at them through the lens of queer studies (an actual university discipline) is that there's precious little to interpret. The music says what it is, and it is what it sounds like. The "gayest" Beach Boys related song is without a doubt the Pearlfisher's take on "Go Away Boy" -- because of the gender switch in the lyrics -- but it scarcely registers among the heavenly harmonies.

Perhaps this is one of the profound shortcomings of this music. It doesn't relate to an entire sensual side of human experience that so much other music does. But perhaps that's also what makes it special -- and relates it to an earlier era of sexless vocal harmony groups and Lawrence Walk arrangements -- an idealization of music as something in and of itself, more beautiful that any human passion or individual orientation.

This is one of the best posts I've read here in a long, long time. And I'd agree that Dennis is the only one who gave off a sexual aura, really ever. You could move Brian or Carl into cute territory, but it's a mostly safe kind of cute. Both shy teddy bears. I don't quite agree that Brian's music is entirely romantically/sexually innocent, though, so much as sexually awkward. Brian's romances are the sort that end up a first kiss that accidentally lands on the nose--misunderstood intentions and brooded-over missteps.

The straightest band I can think of was The Moodie Blues and I think thats mentioned in a story I read somewhere. Not just in the sexual sense but as in the fact they didn't piss on forecourt walls, do drugs, booze etc or at least, got caught!

"Hey Little Tomboy" is an arguably gay song perhaps. Maybe not but it's the closest I could think of. How about that one love song "Friends"?

Seriously, they did cover "You've Got To Hide Your Love Away" which Lennon wrote with Brian Epstein in mind (according to legend anyway).....

If they had actually released "Hard Times" aka "Rollin Up to Heaven" this would all be moot, of course.

Actually back in the olden days (when it was the Smile shop) there was a thread that spoke about the BB and gender issues.  I was the one that pointed out the many issues that come up in such songs such as She Knows Me Too Well. That yes the men were allowed to look at other guys and it was okay for women to get really upset about it. However when a woman was looking at the guys like that, not acceptable.

Anyways back to more of this topic, I always felt like Brian songs, especially the ones on Pet Sounds were almost like epic tales. The hero always has a tragic flaw and the resolution is that the relationships fail.

The Beach Boys were the nice boys in your homeroom class whereas the Beatles were the exotic and worldly exchange students. The Stones were the bad boy seduction artists.  Girls were wooed and seduced by the latter two.  Girls thought of the first group as "just friends". The girls were, to the guys in BB songs, realistically unattainable. That adds to the idealization of the female gender in Brian's music.

"...I'd love just once to see you, I'd love just once to see you, I'd love just once to see you in the nude"

The Moody Blues have a dark side. Ever heard the comment Patrick Moraz once made about Justin Hayward?

"He'd cut his own mother's throat if it meant he'd get ahead."

They used LOTS of psychedelics and smoked lots of weed. Cocaine figured into their tale in the 70s. They were just very private. Plus all the stories of them backstage in the early 70s being stalked by crazy fans who thought their music had "hidden messages" that would save them.

I mean, here's the thing -- can you actually imagine any of the Beach Boys (beside Dennis) actually having -- um -- relations? It's too horrible to contemplate. Now do that mental experiment with other rock stars -- it's a lot easier, isn't it?

Nookie, huh?

Anyone want to tackle the end of "Alley Oop" on "Party" where Mike does a mincing queen voice  about his dinosaur ("what a big brute he is")?

Which by the way was the level of frathouse humor you'd expect to hear circa 1965, so let's not get all P.C. about it.

Yeah, the Today ballads and Pet Sounds reflect Brian's skewed perspective on male/female realtionships. Clay mentioned the idealization of women. That's something you sometimes see in teenaged boys. Brian never really grew out of that. He would rather pine over the objects of his desire (Surfer Girl, Please Let Me Wonder, Don't Let Her Know She's An Angel - he comes right out and admits to the audience that he thinks of "his" girl as a deity in that song) than actually take the chance lest the reality pales to the fantasy (Caroline, No).

I'd say in the grand scheme of things, the Beach Boys were certainly a whole lot smuttier than a lot of the pop bands at the time. Appearances can be deceiving. :)

How about when Brian "searched through (his) pocketbook" in Busy Doin' Nothing?  That was a pretty bizarre line at the time...

I've actually thought about this a good bit, because as an avowed (and rather radical) feminist, the Boy's song can be, well, problematic at times... 

But I think that in some ways Brian was really a victim of the sort of cultural processes which are usually discussed in women's studies and queer studies.  the problem, arguably, which drove the songs on the second half of Today especially, and also on Pet Sounds, is that the images and ideas and culture that surrounded romantic relationships in the early 1960s when Brian was growing up were just inadequate for actually having a working relationship.  Brian knew his relationship with Marilyn wasn't quite working out...I can imagine that it's because he wasn't treating her concerns as equal, he married far too young, and, as She Knows Me Too Well makes so clear, there were huge double standards for men and women, especially for rock stars and women, which led to them have skewed expectations.  But Brian, who was I assume unversed in feminist theory, didn't have the cultural context for understanding this, so to him, real relationships just sucked, and couldn't really be improved.  It must have been incredibly frustrating (as it is for thousands of young people today who are trapped in gender roles, acting out a script of relationships that rarely fits real people and real personalities...and, for a few, finding an almost surreal comfort in those old Beach Boys songs!). 

I subscribe big time to the notion of "sublimation."  Particularly Freud's assertion that it is the transformation of the libido into art.  I think that art is primarily a product of displaced sexual energy.

Furthermore, I think this describes Brian Wilson (and even the other Beach Boys) just as much as any other artist whose creativity is passionate and prolific: Woody Allen, Robert Crumb (wow, what a family), Beethoven, Tchaikovsky, to name a few.  A lot of artists are not only extremely driven by lust and intense attraction, but their sexuality is manifested in different ways.  They have fetishes and desires that would be considered "strange" by most.  Of course, it varies in its degree and the Beach Boy's music has that innocent sort like some of the posters described.  The examples from Love You and Adult Child are obvious, but there's others too.  "Eating up her wild honey."  Or the line in "Sweet Sunday Love" -- "You can do something for me and I'll do the same for you."

And, like most have already pointed out, Brian Wilson's "hopeful about being hopeless" way of viewing relationships is what sets him apart from a lot of other songwriters at the time.

There's a clip from I think 1980 where he's interviewed, and I think he's talking about "California Girls" and says something along the lines of wherever he goes he sees a pretty girl and that's what inspires him and then he says "I always look for that feeling."  That's where it really comes through in my opinion.

This has been stated many times, but there's also the fact that Brian really never outgrew adolescence. I think that profoundly affected the way he saw women and relationships. It's why he idealized them, as if he was incapable of really getting close to them to where he could see them as human beings.  I think of Brian spilling hot chocolate on Marilyn-- HE was the awkward one, even though he was so much older. I think of that scene in the BWPS documentary where Brian talks about looking at a Playboy centerfold. He might as well be 13 there-- there's an innocence there, even though there's also lust. Same with his lyrics. He alludes to sleeping with women-- "When the two get together, uh huh huh huh huh huh..."-- in an almost self-censored way, as if the grown-ups are listening. And that teenage mindset accounts for his lack of irony, too. The Beatles seemed so much more sophisticated. Their humor in recording sessions seems so much less juvenile than the BB's humor. And the way they reacted to Brian Epstein being gay, not that they weren't homophobic in their way, but well, could you imagine the BBs in the same situation? For some reason it seems like they wouldn't have been able to handle it.

Speaking of double standards, I'm reminded of the story of Dennis and Karen(?) arguing to the point that Dennis threw out a bunch of pictures of them, because he thought she was sleeping around. This, coming from "The Wood".

I believe pronounced sexual suggestion and innuendo in pop music began with the British invasion.
And not just the Beatles and Stones, either. The Who, Kinks, Animals, Them, ad nauseum were a lot
more blatant. On our side of the pond Pat Boone and Roy Orbison were still scratching out a living.
The Beach Boys were wholesome enough to be typecast in their careers for years to come, while the
Euro's set the trends.

Rock and roll is pronounced sexual innuendo.  Ask Jerry Lee.

Is Jack Reiley gay? I never knew that before. To quote Seinfeld: "not that there's anything wrong with that".  :lol

No offense, but that's ridiculous. What about Long Tall Sally? Or Tutti Frutti? Hell, Rock Around The Clock pre=dates both of those songs. Don't forget Good Golly Miss Molly, who sure liked to ball.

I would concur with this one. A Teenage Symphony To God? That is a concept befitting a 14-year old, methinks. Well, I had those 'holy' thoughts and feelings at that age anyway. That is the age where you, as a man, cannot really think of a woman going to the loo, sweating and stinking, having a bad temper because of the hormones, et cetera. Women are divine, period.

I cannot see Dennis as a grown-up sexual being. Yes, he was very romantic. He got around a lot. But: the Golden Penetrators? No. Not very adult, perhaps only in 'adult movies', but then the actors in those movies aren't grown-ups either.

The Wilson brothers all fought with a stulted development of their personalities. Not very surprising, given their upbringing. It always struck me as weird and fascinating that their friends tended to downplay Murry's transgressions. Either they really did not know the sordid details, or they thought these were something you would outgrow easily, eventually. I myself am fighting to this day with events in my childhood that were not nice, to put it very, very mildly. I always try to forgive. But my own course of life will forever be 'coloured' by these happenings.

What an interesting thread.

The Beach Boys tended to cultivate a clean cut image, which as far as I can make out seemed out of date in Europe by 1966. Though I am going from documentaries and books as I wasn't around then.

That said, they obviously weren't as overtly sexual as the Stones or even the Beatles. Their songs are clearly heterosexual in that they tell of cars, girls, surfing.

Now...Pet Sounds...its clearly heterosexual in that Brian and co sing of girl troubles, but its also incredibly candid about how a young man feels. Most red blooded young men don't feel comfortable baring their souls like that. Though it doesn't make Pet Sounds in any way "gay" it does make it unusually sensitive.

I agree with almost everything but this...have you seen Mike Love on stage? In his gold lame outfits and Coronation Street hairnet and mincing up the place? He outcamps Jagger.

 :lol I'd think that Mike secretly suffered from his early balding pate, and 'needed' something sorely to make up for that, to prove his personality. Perhaps that is why he re-married so frequently with very young girls also. Was Mike abused as a child too? I would not be surprised at all if he were.

That's taking it a bit far isn't it? Mke has been married to younger women and slept around because that's the type of person he is. Not exactly unusual for rock stars to behave like that and the women obviously should know what to expect.

Might be. Opinions may differ and that is a good thing.

I hope this observation is taken in the right spirit, but since my first listen of BWPS, I'm always jarred by the opening vocals of "Child is the Father of the Man". The first vocals after the instrumental opening of this song sound like "child, child, the child, father of the fag, father of the man". This is probably just the next "f" sound of father bleeding into the word "man", so I highly doubt it's intentional, but you never know. Since we're getting into Murry and childhood trauma, maybe that was a derogatory term he used on his sons?

It's just the alternating lines saying"father" right as the previous alternating lines are saying "man." I don't think it was meant in purpose to produce that word.

Interesting thread.  I think Brian was uncertainof his masculinity at times, or just had trouble relating at the right level in male female relationships.  He tried to put his feelings into songs.  He was quite the romantic in his imaginings about relationships.  He wrote like a very sensitive guy.  

I recall a few times reading about Brian apologizing about his falsetto...sounding like a girl...wanting to be more of a rocker.

As someone said, Brian did engage in sublimation.  If not truly sublimation as in the unconcious defense mechanism sense, certainly in a deliberate way as in the period, mentioned by Marilyn in an interview, where Brian obstained from sex to channel more of his "essence" into music...(she said he had sex but didn't allow himself to reach climax).
Very dedicated approach I'd say.

We certainly can't forget Mike prancing around in gold lame and a turbin.  Of course Mike has been more of a Zelig changing his stage personna according to the time and circumstances.

Songs, such as Good Time, are clearly to me, more suited to Am Spring than the Beach Boys.

I don't know about Bruce.  I love the guy but there is a show tune quality about him.  Nuff said about that.

Dennis was a raging Hetero from all I've read.

I guess the Beach Boys are/were the sum of their parts.  There was a certain sensitivity and sense of awe and wonder coming from Brian...tinged with a bit of sorrow and wistfulness.   To me, this was the essence , the true essence, of the band.  

I sometimes wonder with all of the people willing to "come out" these days, which celebs from a previous generation might have come out if they had been born later.  That would be a thread unto itself once started.

I guess the BBs were never c*ck rock - except maybe in the early days - and, unfortunately, for some people (usually certain males aged anywhere between ten and ninety), c*ck rock is all that matters.  I saw Clapton and Steve Winwood playing some (and let's put this loosely) 'Blues' concert in New York.  Two British Invasion guys both on guitar.  I had to turn it off. A) It was deadly B) If I wanna listen to the Blues, give me Robert Johnson etc and C) I had this awful image of Steve Hoffman board guys spilling their seed in excitement.  Not a pretty thought.  Whatever it is the BB did, thank God they did it their way - striped shirts or beads, turbans or Nudie suits.

I've read somewhere (Gaines' book?) that Dennis said he had been raped by black guys many times. If I remember correctly, the author was saying that he had reasons to believe that Dennis had not been raped, and that it probably was some kind of fantasy.

EDIT Here's what Gaines says about it (mods, feel free to remove the quote if you think it's not appropriate, but I think it's "fair use")

"Dennis later told friends that he was raped by a black man while in jail that night. He also told friends that he had once stopped to help a stranded motorist and was dragged into an alley by three black men and raped. And on another occasion, he claimed he was raped by a black handyman on his boat, the Harmony. He would also later claim to be raped by a black man in the alley behind his first wife Carol's house in 1982. Obviously, this was a recurring fantasy, and whether or not any of these stories is true remains unknown."

Dennis and Brian should have both been arrested for Indecent Behavior With A Hamburger and Carnal Knowledge Of Underdeveloped Song Ideas back in 1981.

"The actual gay connections to the group are few and far between."  Curt Becher and Andy Paley - who knows who else.  Remember, it wasn't the done thing to advertise such things back then...

You know, I just had a discussion about that on another forum. Short: Fact is that many people try nowadays to make something sexual out of something that hasn't got anything to do with it. "Good golly miss Molly" "Goodness, gracious, great balls of fire" and stuff, were common expressions in the then popular teenage-slang, meaning "Great"or "Cool". There are just a few examples that really have those sexal conncections and they are mostly not in rock'n'roll-songs but in blues-tunes (which often were then recorded by rock'n'roll-artists). Like the famous "one-eyed-cat peepin' in a sea food store". But the rock'n'roll-songs were written for young people and of course with sales in mind. It was alot more innocent than people try to tell you today. It's because in these times you can't sell anything without having some "f*ck"s in the lyrics or a video full of naked women, just because the product isn't good enough. That's one point. I don't want to get into the other. Anyway, back to rock'n'roll, the sexual thing was in the performances, but it's another question if you'd call it sexual or just sensual (like emotional). I'm very well informed about the music of that periode(s) and that point is something that always bothers me. All in all there's much more whitewashing and missing knowledge and understanding for pre-60s music, which is a big, big shame. (I'm not talking about you, Jay. Just in case it looked lke that)

Sounds to me like a running-gag, not like a sexua fantasy

That's how I tend to see it as well, but who knows?

I thought the whole Andy Paley thing was unsubstantiated -- he talks about going on double dates with his girlfriend and Brian and Melinda in the Carlin book.

I'm impressed with everyone, by the way -- this is a great discussion. My own thoughts on the topic are many and confused -- as was my additional post. My original germ of a question was "why are there no gay Beach Boys fans," but then I realized that likely wasn't true (or able to be substantiated in any definite way). But then I realized that even asking that first question brought out issues of the BB's relationship with women, relationship, sexuality, etc. A lot of you guys have done a better job of teasing that out than I did.

Fantastic point earlier about Little Richard -- it's commonly forgotten that one of the fathers of rock was essentially a screaming queen. And that strain of outre showmanship has been a key factor throughout the R&R era -- even in the straightest of acts. But not with the BBs, for whatever reason (yes, I know about Mike and his close relationship with gold outfits, but that just never registered as camp to me -- maybe it's not camp if you're trying too hard).

At least one more.

Yeah, usually guys who are raped don't enjoy talking about their experiences like that.  :)

Unless they're masochists!  :smokin

Apart from Jack Reiley?

Tandyn Almer?

And i still find it hard to believe Van Dyke Parks isn't a bit that way. A camp Mark Twain.

Probyn?

Jeff?

Reggie Dunbar? Anagram of U r a big bender.

all in jest, of course.

Gene Landy must be, surely.

Yeah, I'm not sure you could make a generalization about BBs fans. In footage of concerts you see a lot of women in bikinis on their boyfriends' shoulders and all that, and yet most SERIOUS fans tend to be men. Then you might think, "They're straight men, because of the cars and girls thing." Superficial fandom may depend on what a band represents, and not on the music itself. I mean, who DO gay music fans like? Judy Garland? Bette Midler? Madonna? Lady Gaga? That's another generalization, but the idea--or stereotype-- is that gay males love to idolize strong women (not sensitive men).  The music is really what Brian's stuff is about, when it comes down to it, and ideally that should transcend gender and sexual orientation. I know Rufus Wainwright loves Brian's music, as does Elton John, for what it's worth. By the way, Rufus's music is often openly gay (meaning he refers to attractive men), and I think most of his fans are straight women.

Probyn and Jeff are (or in JF's case, possibly were) married to ladies. And Landy had Alexandra Morgan.

And yes, the VD Parks thing has crossed my mind numerous times -- but I think that's just how he is.

What - Andy Paley's gay? I thought that he said in the BBC Wouldn't It Be Nice Documentary something like "When I was a kid I used to hear the Beach Boys and songs talkimg about bikini clad girls etc - it sounded like paradise"

I wouldn't call Manson gay but I heard that he got in trouble in jail for sodomy in the early sixties. I guess he was violent with the guy. The Dennis rape strory and the Brian with Almer thing would be a good question for Mr. Gaines.

Steve Levine?

This is silly and probably not important.  My wife has no time for the BB.  I don't really know any women who do (except for one who's gay!); most of my male friends like their music, though some aren't what you'd call fans.  None of them, however, have much time for 22 minute c*ck rock guitar solos (not that there's anything wrong with that) , though that's not to say they don't like the odd solo per se... I think the image of BW struggling with his masculinity could be refined, perhaps, to one of him struggling with the stereotypical conception of masculinity.

I've often wondered about the (stereotypical) 'rock' fan's distaste for BW's music and wondered if it's because the majority isn't guitar-derived.  At best, BW and DW were striving for 'something else' outside of the genre but with many recognisable generic elements.

Isn't being a 'serious fan' a male thing in itself? I know no woman who is a collector, a hoarder, a completist in pop music. Women tend to:

1. not being positive about a big hi-fi set in the living room;

2. asking frequently: 'don't you have enough CD's by now?'.

As for point (1), hi-fi buffs have coined the acronym: WAF (wife acceptance factor). A mini-all-in-one set will do fine, esp. if it's in pink. All other sets will inevitably lead to divorce.

How many Boyzone/Take That/Daniel O'Donnell fans tend to be men? The tea making gender can certainly hoard and collect as much as anyone...

LOL, you certainly got me there... although these complete collections won't last for very long, a little voice says to me.

I suspect they don't collect Boyzone outtakes!

You may be on to something.  Perhaps the hard rocker fan is compensating for his own uncertainties regarding sexual identity.
Or as you say, struggling with stereotypical concepts of masculinity.  Freudian psychologists refers to this sort of thing as a Reaction Formation..an ego defense mechanism employed unconciously .  The holier than thou type who secretly harbours sinful thoughts, the guy who behaves in an overtly masculine manner to hide his sensitive side.....etc.

HA HA! Love your posts, Don! The truth is here in my household, my wife loves to have the best hi-fi stuff (in our living room, our bedroom and her car) and she has a huge music collection. She also likes the Beach Boys and she has had me make BB compilations for her. But her choice of material ("Tears In The Morning" for instance) might be different to most of the male members here. Most of her collection is the typical "classic" rock with a few "newer" bands as well. No rap thank you!

Sometimes I wonder if age and maturity are also factors (along with insecurity about masculinity) in people's taste for macho guitar-based hard rock vs. more "effeminate" sounding music and/or music based around any other instrument than the guitar.

"Perhaps the hard rocker fan is compensating for his own uncertainties regarding sexual identity."

As a hard rock/punk/heavy metal/industrial fan myself, I must say that the aforementioned description is not only ludicrous, but a goshdarn fucking ridiculous thing to say. It's nothing to do with anyone's uncertainties regarding their sexual identity. It's called "you like it or you don't".

Maybe it DOES matter if you're black or white...

I've always thought Carl was a little gay.

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_qpLyzEIV-V0/SU5zUeSS0pI/AAAAAAAACkg/ShwJ-BSGcGc/s400/Carl-Wilson-Carl-Wilson-soloalbum.jpg)

I mean, come on.

RBB -- something to that, especially considering the whole gay punk scene (knew quite a few of them in college). Not a lot of confusion about identity there.

And the Carl Wilson album is kind of a cheap shot -- he's just trying his best to look smoldering. Sadly only one Wilson male could pull that off.

Nah, it's you that just don't like "crap like Led Zeppelin". Of, now I begin to wonder how much you HATE that kind of music.  :)

When I was playing some Beach Boys songs, some other people said they sounded gay, probably refering to Brian's falsetto. Although, I am sure that is not what you are talking about. I have always thought one of the gayest sounding groups is Queen. Of course I know the singer was.

On another note, imagine Mike Love singing 'Too Sexy for My Shirt'!

time to compare them...

(http://i48.tinypic.com/1tptaa.jpg)   

   

Hahahahahahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa  :lol :lol :lol

I take the liberty to quote in full. This comparison is sheer genius. I never was a BBs photo collector, but I might become one...

My wife's an exception. She's just as much of a collector as I am, and has "heard" various "outtakes" of artists that may (or may not) include Stone Temple Pilots, Daniel Johnston, Pink Floyd, 2Pac,and others.

I think it depends on whether you are a diehard fan....male or female.  Men tend to get more into the technical and such....like recording techniques and recording dates and stats.  Its like guys and cars or technical stuff.  Its how many cubic inches, carbon fiber, gigabytes or what ever.  Women, as with many things, and there are exceptions to stereotypes certainly, tend to lean toward the esthetics and social.  My wife likes cars becasue of the look, style I like them ofroboth style and performance attributes.  My wife likes music usyually because she can relate to the performer and what the singer or song is saying.  Me too but also interested in guitar styles, reverb, nuances such as that.

It is the difference between men and women generally.  Men's brains are dosed with testosterone at 10 weeks gestation and they are forever on unequal footing with women.

The only thing missing from this picture is a bottle of cheap cider and a park bench, Carl looks like a homeless dude in this. Not one of his best...

He looks like every hipster dude in Portland.

Maine or Oregon?

Posed. Circa 1980

I guess you're right. And yeah, I do hate Zeppelin (and most other c*ck rock) with a passion.

In an age of endless Lady Gagas, Adam Lamberts, Shakiras, etc etc etc, I love and appreciate where Brian's head is/was at concerning the topic of love relationships as expressed in music.  I think you put it very well here.               

Totally agree: surely Brian Wilson has a more "classical" sensibility than many would give credit for. I'm thinking of a tune such as "Sweet Mountain" which isn't totally sexless, but which is certainly more "nuanced"

Are there hipsters in maine?!!

Good point. GO DUCKS!

Oh no

O-H...