The Smiley Smile Message Board

http://stereogum.com/archives/list/uncuts_top_20_albums_of_the_00s_093691.html (http://stereogum.com/archives/list/uncuts_top_20_albums_of_the_00s_093691.html)

Awesome.

10 Fleet Foxes - Fleet Foxes
09 Ryan Adams - Heartbreaker
08 Bob Dylan - Modern Times
07 Arcade Fire - Funeral
06 Robert Plant and Alison Krauss - Raising Sand
05 The Strokes - Is This It
04 Brian Wilson - Smile
03 Wilco - A Ghost is Born
02 Bob Dylan - 'Love and Theft'
01 The White Stripes - White Blood Cells

Putting Smile there is lovely and all that.... but that list is absolutely terrible, with the possible exception of the strokes. Maybe 'Love And Theft', too. Most of those records are average at best.....

That's the problem of the current music scene. I don't really know if there are that many great records out there but I doubt it

Here are a list of great albums that should be on that list:

Kid A - Radiohead
Illinoise - Sufjan Stevens
The Thrills - So Much for the City
Cold Play - (recent one that was recorded in cathedrals across Europe) I forgot what its called

 

Love and Theft is good.  Modern Times' inclusion is a joke, surely.  JJ Cale meets Sub-Crosby crooning...

Am I the only one who is of the persuasion that the decade still has almost 3 months to go?

this is stupid.

Yup. It is the British obsession with lists, probably initiated by a very crude potty training period. MOJO magazine has the list obsession to thank for its downfall. No matter what, no matter how insipid and inane the music or films might be, make a list. And since in the UK a magazine with 'october' on its front tends to hit the shops in february, it all becomes a bit psychiatric.

Not Smile - Brian Wilson Presents Smile. Big difference.

I did not think otherwise. Were there really people who thought about the '67 Smile?  :o

Just striving for a little historical accuracy.  ;D

OK. That's fine with me. Andrew, how is it that UK mags are so, um, obsessed with 'pre-dating' (or 'post-dating' if you will) the month a magazine hits the stores?

I'd replace A Ghost is Born with Yankee Hotel Foxtrot. And like Magic Transistor Radio said, where are The Thrills, Sufjan, and Coldplay (BTW, the album is called Viva La Vida)? And where are TLOS and Live At The Roxy? Where's Animal Collective? Rilo Kiley? Death Cab? The Decemberists? The Postal Service? Bright Eyes? The Shins? The Explorers Club? TV On The Radio? M.I.A.? Barenaked Ladies? Camera Obscura? Belle and Sebastian? Stereolab? Battles? Justice? Death From Above 1979? Broken Social Scene? Feist?  The Thrills? THE FLAMING LIPS?????!!!!!

UK pop mag editors are notorious for their intense daytime drinking.

Further down the list. They printed a Top 150 in the magazine.  :P

Honestly, I think the UK music rags hate pretty much everything I listen to except for Brian and the BBs.

I have no idea... and it's getting worse - when I used to manage a newsagents a few years back, we were getting, say, the September issue in mid-July.

It's funny, but BWPS is the only album of those ten that would make my top ten of the decade (there's still several months, though).

I hope this isn't derailing, but I'll post my personal top ten soon.

I'm not trying to be argumentative for the sake of it (as I know this is an incendiary topic) but I don't have a problem with calling BWPS Smile, and certainly don't think it is a cold hard fact that BWPS isn't Smile.

If BWPS isn't smile, what is? Are the unfinished 66/67 sessions Smile? Could a specific combination of the original 66 fragments become Smile? Would Brian need to organise these fragments solely on his own, for this to qualify as a finished Smile? Why does the fact he had assistance (ranging from 0-100%) negate BWPS's claim to being Smile? After all he had assistance on the original sessions.

Or maybe if legal wranglings hadn't prevented them from just calling BWPS, Smile, it would be Smile, i.e. it's merely in name alone that the quibble exists.

Or would the only legitimate Smile have been the one finished in a parallel universe in 1967?

What's Brian's take on it - has he said he finished Smile with BWPS?

I know this might seem like a belligerent post. It isn't meant to be. I just think it's interesting defining why BWPS is or isn't Smile. I certainly don't think it's cut & dried that it isn't Smile.

1) yes

2) no

3) no

4) yes

5) yes

Just my opinion(s)   :) SMiLE

Yes.
Personally (and that's probably all this is worth), to me BWPS is "finished SMiLE" and '66-'67 SMiLE is "unfinished SMiLE".  Had it been finished in '66-'67 it would've been different than the finished BWPS, but for that matter, had it been finished in '66, it would have been different had it been finished in '67.  In fact, if it had been finished in September '66, it would've been different than had it been finished in December '66, and a December '66 finished SMiLE would've been different than had it been finished in January '67, which would've been different had it been finished in May '67.  See what I mean?  SMiLE only got finished in '04, and now it's finished, but since it's a different set of recordings, there are now TWO SMiLES...unfinished SMiLE and finished SMiLE.  On that note, I'm gonna  :)  

Yes that's about the way I see it. As BWPS is finished and unfinished Smile isn't, I think BWPS actually has more claim to being Smile, than Smile does!

Isn't that true with every album Brian produced, or any album by any artist?

If Brian re-recorded "Trombone Dixie", and had a press conference announcing that he would like to NOW close Pet Sounds with "Trombone Dixie" instead of "Caroline No", and insisted that all future pressings be issued this way, which Pet Sounds would you consider finished?

Glad to see BWPS got some respect, as I agree that it's among the top 10 or so of the decade. Right up there, in fact. Love & Theft, too. As for both the magazine's and most of the others here's remaining choices, I'd disagree. And I'd disagree that there wasn't plenty of great music this decade. But really, such things take a while to sort themselves out. No need to decide what ended up the best when we're still here. Check back in 10 years. Or 25. By which time, a whole new crop of old farts will complain about the then-new music, while the younger people bitch about the inclusion of phogies like the Jonas Bros. or MIA in their lists.

Oh, and for the record, my list is probably something like Love & Theft, BWPS, Belle & Sebastian's Dear Catastrophe Waitress, Beulah's Coast is Never Clear, Of Montreal's Satanic Panic in the Attic, Iron & Wine's the Shepherd's Dog, Amy Winehouse's Back to Black, Herman Dune's Giant, Shins' Chutes Too Narrow, and Tom Waits' Alice. Not in that order. And with another 30 discs contending for those same spots.

I would consider the original Pet Sounds the finished one, because the difference is SMiLE was clearly NOT finished in '66-'67, by everyone's admission including Brian's (well, maybe not Dom Priore's!).  Wheareas Pet Sounds clearly WAS finished back then, and released to boot!  :)

But, hypothetically speaking, what if Brian goes on Larry King Live and says, "No, that wasn't the way I wanted Pet Sounds to end. Capitol Records rushed it out. THIS is the way I wanted it to end, with Trombone Dixie." Would the 1966 Pet Sounds still be the finished one?

Damn. I read the top 20 and it made me compile a list of my personal favorite top 10 cds from the 00's. It tentatively goes something like this:

01) Dennis Wilson: "Pacific Ocean Blue / Bamboo" (2008)
02) Brian Wilson: "Brian Wilson Presents SMiLE" (2004)
03) Paul McCartney: "Chaos And Creation In The Backyard" (2005)
04) David Gilmour: "On An Island" (2006)
05) The Beatles: "Stereo Remasters" (2009)
06) The Beatles: "Mono Remasters" (2009)
07) Brian Wilson: "That Lucky Old Sun" (2008)
08) Red Hot Chili Peppers: "By The Way" (2002)
09) Paul McCartney: "Memory Almost Full" (2007)
10) George Harrison: "Brainwashed" (2002)

I have no idea why I am so much into older acts. I like some new bands but these albums influenced my life much more than others from that same decade. Laugh at me if you will...

I must admit I haven't heard any of the recent Dylan. I'm almost afraid to listen to it. Bought the new Yoko cd but haven't been able to bear myself to put it on yet.

Wait, I also liked Sean Lennon's "Friendly Fire" and one of the Vanessa Carlton albums (you can tell I'm a pianist too!).

In conclusion, 50 years or so from now will tell which of these are remembered and which are forgotten.

Beulah is good good stuff.  I dig Yoko just as much.  Looking forward to Miles' solo record.

Sounds like a loaded question, Sheriff.  :)  And not one that I can answer!

This is an interesting point. Because Pet Sounds was finished and released in 66, if Brian now wanted to add to it, he would have a hard time convincing the world that his new version was the definitive one. It's unlikely that his changes would improve on what is largely perceived to be perfect, and so any changes he made would not be taken seriously - he would be up against majority opinion, and I think majority opinion is valid in defining the definitive version of a popular record.

I think a better comparison is with The Beatles Let It Be. McCartney has now released the Naked version, implying that his is definitve. Is this true? My guess is that most regard the original to be the genuine article, despite McCartney's disatisfcation and non involvement with its production, sequencing etc. However millions of people bought and accepted LIB as a Beatles album, and you would have a hard time convincing this majority that Naked should be swapped for LIB in the Beatles discography in their minds' eyes.

Smile I think is different, because its major flaw prior to 04 was that it was unfinished. In many ways it needed to be finished and Brian (allegedly) did this. So the widely held view of BWPS is that it's the finishing of Smile which, in the eyes of Joe Public, is preferable and results in an improvement, and a more consumable product i.e. a finished album. Therefore the weight of opinion prefers the idea that Brian finished Smile in 04, and this is reflected in the press, hence this Uncut article referring to Brian Wilson's Smile rather than Brian Wilson Presents ...  The fact that BWPS was rapturously received only cements the idea that it was the right thing to do, and strengthens the notion that Brian finished Smile.

I think ultimately, whether you regard BWPS as Smile or not has to be a personal thing, but I think the accepted view, for better or worse, and the one that history will remember is that Smile was finished in 04.

However, having said all that, if someone walked up to me and said "What is Smile" I would instantly picture Frank Holmes' artwork, and think of the original Beach Boys sessions. I think C-Man said it best: There is unfinished Smile and finished Smile, and SMiLe (sorry quirky typo haters) encompasses them both - an album that exists simultaneously in two time frames. I think it's ok to refer to BWPS as Smile, providing you accept that Smile is so much more than BWPS.

In classical music, there are few 'definitive versions', I mean performance-wise. You can purchase hundreds of versions  of the complete Mahler symphony cycle, and they all sound different, sometimes vastly different. That is because in general this music exists only on paper. We never know how the composer meant it to be heard.
This issue is even more emphasized by the rise of 'authentic' practise in the '70s, where groups adhered much more to the performance guidelines and habits of the days of composition. Old instruments, smaller ensembles, what have you. There was and is great controversy regarding these issues. What is/are the 'real' performances?
'Reconstructing', or 'completing' is a very common thing in classical. Comparable to what Brian intends to do with Gershwin's small pieces.

I am not a great compilations fan. Pet Sounds is Pet Sounds 1966 to me. Friends is Friends, and Wild Honey is Wild Honey. I never skip tracks, or make comps of my own from released material.

That said, the GV box is a jewel IMHO, a true exception. And, well, with the fancy footwear stuff, anything is possible, because most often it's not in the format of conceptual albums anyway. So there, I do make comps (also because it combines the great and the absolutely horrific oftentimes).

PS: a really interesting case in classical was conductor Sergiu Celibidache. He thought each live performance to be unique and unrepeatable. Hence, he refused to record and release LPs. Because of that, he became the most-bootlegged artist in classical music...

Is Pet Sounds "finished" because it was released with an album cover? Or is it "finished" because Brian says so? Does its creator, Brian Wilson, have the authority to override that? Ever? According to c-man's point, a Brian Wilson album (in his example, SMiLE) would be different depending on WHEN it was released. Well, couldn't Brian re-release Pet Sounds, with a new composition (a la the Gershwin project, or using "Trombone Dixie" for example) and say, "Now it's finished."

Of course I'm stretching a point, but not by much. I think that's pretty much what Brian (or his management) did with BWPS. Brian said that SMiLE was finished so - I guess it's finished. Why? Because Brian said so. Do I have to believe him? Would Brian be angry if I didn't agree with him. Or, as AGD opined, would he care.....

I think what it comes down to, is if something is proclaimed as "finished" (as "Pet Sounds" obviously was, upon its release) it can be considered "finished".  If the artist theoretically decided to "re-finish" it later, that wouldn't change the fact that it was "finished" earlier.  The new "finished" version would actually be "revised".  But in the case of something like "SMiLE", it WASN'T finished until 2004, so that's actually different.  Again, it's not the same as if it had been finished in '66-'67, but my point (and Brian's) is that it WASN'T finished in '66-'67, or at any time, until '04.  Now the original recordings from '66-'67...THEY'RE still unfinished.  :)

Meh. BWPS is Smile and it isn't Smile, all at once. For me, not much more thinking really needs to go into it, I don't think it's necessary.

Its just a list...its not definitive....its interesting, nothing more.


But....am I the only one here who thinks Modern Times is better than Love & Theft?

No, you're not. Modern Times is my personal favorite album since the year 2000. Love & Theft is great too, though.

I like 'em both a lot. Love And Theft has some real high points, but Modern Times might be a little more consistent IMO....

I think they're both great, but can't say I like (or have ever liked) Modern Times more than Love & Theft, which I think is among the best 2-3 Dylan albums ever, probably.

I personally think Modern Times is stronger than Love & Theft, which is also great.   And the new one, Together Through Life, is almost as good IMO.  Now Time Out Of Mind, however, has them all beat (but it's from the previous decade, so no chance to be on this list).   

Quick! Somebody make an album better then one of the current top ten!

 :lol very good!

Bob has - his new Christmas album!

I don't care for the opinion of people with foreskin.

 :lol :o :afro

Well, with a Tom Waits album recently announced as on the way this year, it might happen.

I honestly hate myself for this, but SMILE just doesn't do it for me!

My problem with it is that the songs simply aren't there. About 4 songs (Surf's Up, Good Vibrations, Wonderful, H&V) stand up to the greatness that came before and a lot of which came after. I think it's a huge step down from Pet Sounds!..... Sure, Pet Sounds took huge leaps forward in production and insturmentation terms, but it still pulled at your heart in ways that few works of art can manage. Smile doesn't do this ....or anything else really. It just meanders along with vage musical passages that link together some silliness which is interrupted on the odd occasion by something approaching (yet not totally acheiving: Surf's Up excluded) something emotional.... I actually consider BWPS as being more affecting due to the struggle it took Brian to get the thing done and out there, the whole back story, and him being older, which I think works in it's favor.... Van Dyke's lyrics are clever but are like looking at a cleverly built blank wall. You know it took some skill in putting it up, but it's still just a blank wall... I think if Mike (or Tony Asher) had been more involved, there would have been more relatable content for the music to hang it's hat on. This isn't overpraising Mike and Tony though.

I can appreciate your opinion , although I do love Smile. The reasons that you stated are the same ones why I don't believe Smile would've been as big as was hoped for. Its art music, blended into the pop genre; and I just don't think people would've understood that as well as The Beach Boys would've liked. More defined songs would've helped sell the album, in my opinion.

Agreed!

While Smile doesnt' do it for me, as in, blow my mind each and every time (Btw, I just spent about a week playing the PurpleChick version over and over: Oops, can I say that??) .... I still love it in it's own way! I prefer BWPS for the reasons I above mentioned, though I can't bear to listen to Brian's band sing after hearing the Beach Boys version, which puts me in a weird position.

Ah, how I wish the damn thing had just been released in 1967!!!!!

I totally understand what you mean. SMiLE doesn't have the emotional "hook" that Pet Sounds does. But, what album does?
SMiLE does have a multitude of other aspects and themes, though, that make it equally great such as humor, childhood, Americana, the outdoors/country feel, a water/nautical feel - and a psychedelic touch!

I agree with you about Van Dyke's lyrics. They are clever, some would say brilliant, and obviously it wouldn't be SMiLE without them. But, you're right, at times they are not relatable. A while back, I wrote a convoluted post about why I thought the brilliance of "Surf's Up" was WASTED - because of Van Dyke's lyrics. I thought/think that such a great song and melody and arrangement and performance should touch me more than "Surf Up" does, and I blamed it on the esoteric lyrics. A simple guy like me could relate to "The Warmth Of Sun" and "Help Me Rhonda", but I struggled with getting enough out of the "Surf's Up" words. I sounded very much like Michael E. Love, but, unlike Mike, I appreciate it anyway, love it, and it might be the best song on SMiLE.

And, that's where I kinda disagree with your assessment of SMiLE a little bit. You wrote that "the songs simply aren't there", and mentioned only four that you felt were truly great. Oooh, that hurts. I respect your and anybody's opinion to like what you like, but I THINK that "Cabinessence", "Our Prayer", "Child Is Father Of The Man" (any version/snippet), "Do You Like Worms", "Wind Chimes" (especially the "Whispering Winds" part) and, yes, "Mrs" O'Leary's Cow" are incredibly great. I'd even throw "Look" in there. Genius. Brilliant. Pull at your heart? Maybe not. Blow your mind? Every time.....

Ugh!!!!! How could I have forgotten Cabinessence? Duh!!!  :p

Ok 5 great songs!

I love the lyrics of Surf's Up actually. They seem to have to do with a culmination of events, acts, emotions, rebirth, ect... Not exacly God Only Knows, but still brilliant... But as much as I might like the lyrics, I think what does it is Brian's voice in the final section. Just something about the mere sound of his voice. Supernaturally wonderful and affecting!

But something like The Warmth Of The Sun will always affect me far more because I know exactly what it's like when someone leaves you or stops loving you, but still you try and hold onto how special it made you feel.... blah blah....

The lyrics to "Surf's Up" are my favorite to any BB song ever. They took on a new meaning for me after Hurricane Katrina here in Louisiana. You'd have to be familiar with New Orleans before the storm to understand what I mean.

SMiLE is why I am here. I grew up to all kinds of music except for the Beach Boys. I liked Pet Sounds when I first heard it but it was the lure of the unreleased SMiLE that made me become a total nerd over this stuff. Period.

That's more or less what I love about VDP. Anyway, let's keep in mind this thread wasn't about Smile as an album overall, but BWPS as an album released in the '00s. Whether it stands up to Pet Sounds is almost irrelevant when comparing it to nine of your other favorites this decade.

Let's also keep in mind I'm the guy who's 2 favorite songs are"Goin On" and "Getch Back"!  :p

I totally understand your love for "Goin On"