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Hi all.  I've been doing a lot of talking and writing about "Carl and the Passions - 'So Tough' " lately, and I'd love to see you all weigh in.

Where does "Carl and the Passions" rank on your list of favorite/best Beach Boys albums?

I wouldn't compare it to "Pet Sounds" or even "Today" and I do think "Sunflower" is the quintessential seventies album, but "Carl and the Passions" has to be a contender for next best seventies album, right?  Maybe with "Holland" as a runner up?

Agree / disagree?

My full review of the album is here:  http://laptopsessions.com/archives/1259 (http://laptopsessions.com/archives/1259)  -- whether you visit the link or not, I'd love to read what others think!

I love "So tough". I'd say it is one of my favorite 70s albums (can't give a number, sorry). But I think that they should've gone on with what side one promised: a very Rock- or R'n'B-album (how about a 70s Wild Honey-album?). Dennis' songs and "All this is that" (which I all love) don't fit in there. There are certainly better albums as a whole (Holland for example) but I like this one very much.


Oh, and I love the title

I like it as well. "He came down", a nice song about the Maharishi.. and the Beach Boys manage it to sound like a whole choir.

"Cuddle up" is one of my favorite songs of all times.

But all in all, the album doesn´t make so much sence. The Fataar/Chaplin Songs sounds just like the Flames and don´t have anything to do with the Beach Boys. Not that I don´t like it, but ya know.

All in All it´s ... I´d say one of my 10 favorite Albums of the Beach Boys. So there is the first row with Pet Sounds, Holland, Sunflower, followed by Friends, 20/20, Wild Honey, Surf´s up, Today, Love you... and then Summer Days and Carl & the Passions... huh, I am good, am I not?

I think it is the Beach Boys' fifth best 70s album (Love You, Surf's Up, Sunflower, Holland). If you mean where does it rank among all 70s albums (not just Beach Boys), I doubt it would make my top 50. Maybe not my top 100. It's good, I like it. But there are a lot of great albums in that decade that it doesn't compete with for me.

I love both of those albums, very solid, and best of all far different from anything else in the catalogue.

I'll go :

1. Love You
2. Sunflower
3. Holland
4. Carl & The Passions (but it's gaining)

This album has grown on me considerably through the years. It's good; two more songs would move it into the very good/great status. There are no clunkers or wince-moments. Brian's two songs are top-rate, I can actually enjoy the Chaplin/Fataar tracks, but the clincher is Dennis' contributions. "Cuddle Up" gets my vote for the most underrated Beach Boys' song.

Well since others are listing their favourite 70s albums I'd go:

1. Sunflower
2. Love You
3. Surf's Up
4. Holland
5. Carl & The Passions - "So Tough"
6. L.A. (Light Album)
7. M.I.U. Album/15 Big Ones

Why the title Carl and the Passions, So Tough?  What does that mean?

I'd say that CATP ranks in my top 5 BB albums of all time...I've always liked it way better than Holland.

1. Friends
2. LA Light Album
3. In Concert
4. Carl & The Passions - So Tough
5. 20/20
6. Sunflower
7. Summer Days & Summer Nights
8. Love You
9. Summer In Paradise
10. Wild Honey

Ranking *only* the albums from '70 to '80:

1. LA Light Album
2. In Concert
3. Carl & The Passions So Tough
4. Sunflower
5. Love You
6. Surf's Up
6. Keepin' The Summer Alive (Tie)
8. MIU Album
9. Holland
10. 15 Big Ones (a distant 10th)

Carl and the Passions was a band name for the guys in the early years--whether real or just messing around, I don't recall. So it was a nod to those years. "So Tough" I think is just the name of the album by "Carl and the Passions."

Interesting, so you put Summer In Paradise above Pet Sounds and Today!! That's cool if you do, but I just find it strange because I'd imagine that you are one of the few people who feel that way. Cool that you have Friends on top though, because even though I know it's not the groups best album it's probably the one that I listen to most often

Yeah, I love both Pet Sounds and Today...they would probably rank in my top 15, but I've always enjoyed SIP more.  I took a lot of heat back in the day on the Cabinessence board for that.  It's funny, while you were quoting my post, I was changing the order around a little bit, and SIP wound up one notch higher... :)

Fair enough and that's what counts doesn't it? Whatever you enjoy more.

I was going to go the same route, mikeyj and eric a. I was going to note how 1) inexplicable I find those rankings, and how 2) cool it is to make them without any boring attempts at attention-grabbing.

This is just off the top of my head. Sometimes I like one better then another but the positions never change much. 
1. Sunflower-A+
2. Pet Sounds-A+
3. Today-A
4. Wild Honey-A
5. All Summer Long-A
6. 20/20-A
7. Friends-A-
8 Summer Days-A-
9. Shut Down 2-A-
10. Surfin USA-A-
11. Holland-B+
12. Surfs Up-B+
13 So Tough-B+
14 Live In London-B
15 Concert-B
16. Surfer Gir-B
17 Smiley-B
18 Party-B
19.Little Deuce Coupe-B
20. In Concert-B- (docked a full grade for too many oldies and no Dennis)
21. Safari-C+
22. Xmas-C+
23 15 Big Ones-C
24. MIU-C
25. La Light-C- (Would be about a grade higher without Here Comes The Night)
26 Love You-C- (Can't get past the vocals or the lyrics overall. A few real gems)
27. KTSA-C-
28.Still Crusin-D+
29. 85-D
30. SIP-D-

85 after Still Cruisin?? you're nuts!

It's by no means a favourite as big as Love You, Surf's Up, Sunflower, and Holland, the latter one of which sounds like a much more fully developed version of what the BB were aiming at on So Tough to these ears. Depending on the mood I'm in, I might even prefer listening to 15 Big Ones, which has grown on me enormously due to its overall pure Brian-ness. That said, So Tough still strikes me as very good record and I really like to give the group credit for this one being so different from anything that had come before.

I really like the 6 Beach Boys songs on CatP/So Tough and it`s just a shame that the two Flame songs don`t fit at all. It might have worked better if they had gone back to some of the unreleased stuff from the Sunflower period and included 2 or 3 (re-recorded) songs from that.

I don`t like the album half as much as Sunflower, Surf`s Up or Holland...but I prefer it to anything that came later. It`s probably around my 10th favourite I would guess.

'All This Is That' and 'Cuddle Up' are among my favorite BB songs, 'He Come Down' is fun and 'Marcella' is OK, but I don't care for the other four songs.

I wish it was a little bit longer - what's there is pretty good (aside from He Came Down, which is a bit much), but it's a little underwhelming at 8 tracks. Mess Of Help, Cuddle Up, Here She Comes and Marcella (although that is seriously underpowered) are my picks.

Somewhere Near Japan is the lone reason I like it more.

Apparently I'm completely out of my mind then. 85 is my least favorite BB album and I kinda like Still Cruisin'.

I think "You Need A Mess of Help To Stand Alone" is one of the best opening cuts on a BB album, period.  That came out of left field to me.  I have a feeling a lot of folks back then didn't think the BB were capable of such a rocking, powerful song.  They're a rock band on that one.  It deserves more attention than it gets, but that's my opinion.  That's one I'd play to people, & I'd tell them the band's identity after they heard it.

I love Marcella, obviously.  Shoulda been a comeback hit single, we all know.  I also enjoy All This Is That.  They really create a tranquil feeling & vibe on that one.  I even like "Here She Comes."  Maybe that's because it sounds so different to most any song they recorded.  The drums are way up front, with a good guitar solo.  It makes me appreciate the contributions of Blondie & Ricky.

 Hold On, Dear Brother's country flavor & the gospel vocals/organ on He Come Down are a plus, too.  Basically, to sum up, a lot of the songs are enjoyable because the boys were stretching their musical boundaries.  This unfortunately didn't happen very often after Holland.

One thing I don't like about the album are the slower songs.  I disagree with their choice of putting them all together on the 2nd side.  An earlier reviewer mentioned this, too.  The first few times I heard the album, it was hard for me to resist moving on to another track.  I believe in spreading them out.  I love Dennis, but I liked his song variety more on Sunflower.  This may sound terrible, but he sounded too over-wrought & dramatic to me on CATPST.  Regardless, Cuddle Up is better than Make It Good.  You've gotta say this, Dennis's voice was excellent on this album.

I'm not good at ranking albums, but I'd put it in my Top 5 BB albums, along with any from 1968--1973.  I first heard CATPST on the 2 for 1 cd with Holland, & I think of those 2 albums as a whole.  So, they both rank high on my list.  Here's my attempt at ranking, in no particular order:


Carl & The Passions
Holland
Sunflower
Friends
20/20
Surf's Up
In Concert from 1973
L.A. Light Album
Pet Sounds



.....Still got to hear the pre-Pet Sounds albums (some of the 1965 LPs would get into the Top 10 no doubt) in their entirety along with their post 1979 stuff...........

85 would be my least but I like Getcha Back. Bad Mike stuff from the 81-00 era I expect, the Brian stuff on 85 is simply awful. I hate Levine's production.

Me too. It sounds more dated now than anything Brian produced in the 60s.

I would put 'So Tough' somewhere near 20/20. Both of these albums are full of good songs, but they don't seem to flow together well. Thus I would rank Holland a lot higher then 'So Tough'. I would say that these albums rank are somewhere in the middle of the 25 (?) studio albums.

70s and beyond - group albums in this order
Surf's Up
Sunflower
Holland
Love You
CATP
LA
15 BO

and the rest

I love All This is That, Cuddle Up, Marcella and Hold on Dear Brother and like Mess of Help and Make it Good. Pity one or two of the other potential tracks couldn't have been added...

I've never given a whole lot of thought to ranking the BB albums in order of preference, but I have to say that I agree with MBE's list practically to the title (I, too, prefer STILL CRUISIN' over '85 if only for "In My Car" which I feel is a great Brian rocker).

CATP has grown on me a lot over the years. I could barely tolerate it when I first bought it in '76 (especially since it was packaged with PET SOUNDS), but I like it quite a bit more now. It's certainly the least "Beach Boys"-like album they ever put out.

I find CATP to be a very enjoyable listen...sounds like 3 different bands put together onto a compilation, but the quality of the songs makes up for a lack of unity. And as far as 70s rock in general goes, I prefer CATP to just about anything Zeppelin, Sabbath, Deep Purple, the Stones, Yes, Pink Floyd, Genesis, Uriah Heep, Jethro Tull, etc. were putting out at the time.

I LOVE Carl & The Passions!

I kind of look at it as the debut album by a band helped out a tad by Brian Wilson. Either that or a quick musical pit-stop between  Surf's Up and Holland.

If Carl & The Passions is a bit disjointed, they certainly got it right with Holland!

I REALLY wish they continued in the C&TP and Holland direction for the rest of the 70's. Then they could've dragged Brian back when he was cleaned up and in shape. As much as I love MIU/LA/Love You, I really really wish the C&TP/Holland band was able to ride on for longer and develope....

This all said, 1976 is my favortie year in Beach Boys history, so maybe I need to have my head checked!

Yeah, I mentioned the shortage of songs in my post. I'm not a big fan of bonus tracks, but this album could use one or two. Anybody know of any possibilities?

I also wanted to plug the two "outsiders'" songs. I kinda like "Here She Comes"; the drumming is brilliant as usual. And, even though "Hold On Dear Brother" isn't about Brian (it isn't, right?), it sounds like it could be ;D and I enjoy it!

Here She Comes and Hold On Dear Brother sound too similar to each other.

I disagree big time.

Funny, I've got a feeling that I'm the only one who thinks that it's not the two Chaplin/Fataar songs, that don't fit with the rest, but the two Dennis-songs and "All this is that". Replace them with stuff like "California ride" and you'd have a very enjoyable rock-album, and nothing would sound too much out of place

Back then, I wondered if the song referred to Brother Fataar.

I love all 8 songs, but I do agree that the two Dennis songs don't really fit in...I do think All This Is That does fit well though.

I also agree that Hold On Dear Brother and Here She Comes are two totally different songs.  If anything, Make It Good and Cuddle Up sound a lot more similar to each other.

Glad you like the list. I think So Tough wasn't a favorite when I first played it in 1989, but once I got more into seventies music I really thought it was a good album of it's era. I commend it for not being Beach Boys like in the stereotypical way.

One more comment is that I just can't put anything Beach Boys related from 1976 on above the earlier stuff, excepting  Dennis' continued excellence through the seventies (in the studio).

While I think "Make It Good" would've benefited from better placement on the album - specifically somewhere on Side A - I think Carl's angelic vocal fading into the opening piano chords of "Cuddle Up" is perfection.

My god, man, do it already! :o

Wow, I didn't realize there was so much love for So Tough. The album never worked for me, I will have to try it again but I can't get into the sound. I guess because they don't sound like The Beach Boys. I will take All This Is That and Cuddle Up as favorites. Every Flame song seems to last forever and plod along. I just never cared for the BB sound on Mess of Help and Marcella

i think there's about half of a great album on So Tough.  My idea for So Tough was that this was their "back to the roots" album after the progressive sounds of Sunflower and Surf's Up - a raw, R & B, dirty rock and blues (and country) album.  The single You Need a Mess Of Help, with that rough and raw Carl vocal, certainly gave that impression.  Hold On Dear Brother, Marcella, and He Come Down (gospel) are in a similar vein.  But the other four songs are not at all in the roots rock theme - Dennis's lush orchestral songs, the jazzy pseudo Traffic Here He Comes, and the TM All THis is That don't fit at all with the other songs.  So it's a schizophrenic album.

I like to combine the four songs mentioned above with California Saga, Sail on Sailor, Funky Pretty, and It's a New Day and Barbara to make a roots rock album that would have been more suited to the Carl and the Passions So Tough title.

I think track by track CTP-ST hold up very well. It seemed to receive less than stellar reviews upon it's release. Perhaps as a whole it doesn't seem cohesive but more of patchwork. 20/20 in many ways took the same criticism.

favorite 70ies albums:
1. Sunflower
2. Holland,
3. In Concert
4. C&tP-So Tough
5. Surf's Up
6. Love You
7. L.A.
8-10. M.I.U./15BO/KTSA

And if I would've withcounted solo-outings, POB would end up second...

The funny thing about CaTP-ST is that it still stands as a solid album, there’s nothing phoney about it. Mind you, it’s 27 years old and I don’t think it has aged a second. It’s also a 4 x 2 album, two songs from Brian, two from Ricky & Blondie, two from Dennis and two TM songs, but somehow it works. I quite like the separation into a rock-side and a softer side. That’s what you had back then when there weren’t CD’s, two sides on an LP you know.

I reckon “You need a mess of help to stand alone” as one of the best rockers of The Beach Boys (if not their best) and I’m glad I had the chance to witness it during a live concert in 1970. It sure is a great track to start an album. They should have played this song live more often. At first I had something against “Here she comes”, as not being a Beach Boys song, but when I listened to it on a good record player and heard all the parts in its right proportions and at a good volume, it was just as good as any Beach Boys song. “Marcella” is still a highlight during Brian’s concerts. The songs on side 2 by Dennis are just a proof of what we would have gotten if he was given permission to release his own album around 1970. I still don’t get fed up listening to “Cuddle Up”.

Seriously....?  As good as ANY BB song?   :o

Here She Comes and Hold on Dear Brother might just be my two favorite songs on the album. I think the Beach Boys seemed a little tired during that album. Ricky and Blondie brought some freshness. On the Holland album, it seems that the rest of the Beach Boys were reenergized and get back to the quality of songs on Surfs Up.

Sorry, Ossama Long, re-phrase: The song is not out of synch on the album. It’s just a fine rocker. I know you can change history in leaving out a few words, but that was not the intention.

1970?

1972, right?  :)

And 37 years old, right? 

I always thought "Surf's Up" was the best '70s Beach Boys album. "So Tough" is very uneven, and some songs aren't very Beach Boys sounding, but still has some great individual songs, but it doesn't flow very well as an album.

That steel guitar solo on "Brother" is just killer. Never get tired of hearing that

Truer words have never been spoken. I never thought about that, but you're right on. Thanks for mentioning that.

And just for the fun, "You need a mess..." from the "Ol' grey whistle test", partly live
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMmX30uyWX4&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMmX30uyWX4&feature=related)

I disagree about "hasn't aged," but I will say I think it has aged considerably better than Holland.

Yeah, Holland has aged "worse" but it's still my all-time fave!

I think C&TP just sounds fresh because it really doesn't sound like The Beach Boys but more like the debut album of some weird band that fizzled quickly after. It sounds a lot like what a Dennis/Carl album might've been like. Blondie and Ricky might very well have played on such an album, Brian might've very well gifted or co-wrote a couple tracks.... Dennis might've very well brought in the same two songs, maybe a couple more (Carry Me Home?)

Sprinkle in a bit of Mike and Al though, and you've got what must be called a Beach Boys album, even if begrudgingly.

As any have said before, C&TP is more four singles with B-sides than anything else. And don't get me wrong, I prefer Holland. By far. It just sounds more dated.

The album kind of seems unfinished; only being like 8 tracks.  They certainly could have put out at least 3-4 more.  There are some strong songs on here such as "Marcella", "YNAMOHTSA" and "All This Is That".  I dig the Blondie/Ricky tunes as well (I know I'm in the minority here).  I could do without the two lumbering Dennis songs. 

The album's shortness is among the things I really like about So Tough. The Beach Boys were just so very good at making these beautiful sufficient records that clocked in at 30 minutes or even less, just very focused and unpretentious. In addition, however, they should have made another two of these short ones in the early seventies. I'm pretty sure that no one would be complaining.

By the way, in He Come Down who's singing "Men see, cries before the road..." and "Tell me life is over..."? Alan, Carl?

I'd have to give it a good listen, but isn't it Blondie?

I remember in the days just prior to the album hitting the stores that I was listening to an FM radio station, hoping they'd play some tracks from CATP.  Info back then was obviously not as readily available as nowadays, and i didn't know Blondie and Ricky had joined the group.  It was (and still is) common practice for the DJ to play a set of 5 or 6 tracks by various artists, and then come on to identify the songs and artists after the set was over.  So, I'm listening all day, and I hear nothing like a Beach Boys track.  Then, at the conclusion of a set of songs, the DJ comes on and says "that set included tracks by (insert any 4 or 5 early 70's artists) and the Beach Boys"! 

I am freaking out, I have been listening closely and there was NO BEACH BOYS SONG IN THAT SET!!!  I keep listening, then maybe 4 hours later, the same thing happens.  Now I think I'm going crazy.  What is this DJ smoking?  This drove me mad.

A few days later, when the album hit the stores, I finally figured out that the song they played on the radio was "Here She Comes"...

I agree. See what our Resident Dean on all things Historical has to say about it...

Oh, I forgot the main question. I have my problems with both CATP and Holland, although I like them a lot. Both, esp. Holland, have autumnal qualities that I like. Holland now and then reminds me of The Band. Perhaps I miss a bit of 'light', a bit of 'cheer', don't know. Both would not make my BBs top-10. That said, both albums have beautiful moments. 'All This Is That', 'Marcella', 'Steamboat', 'California Saga (Big Sur)', 'Sail On Sailor'... I'd say they'd get a ranking just above the middle (I avoid 'average', because compared to other artists the word 'average' is not in my BBs dictionary).

Once I figured out where these came in the song (hint: it's not what I'm hearing  :)), yes, pretty sure that's Mr. C.

BTW, Brian was quite heavily involved in this track.

If you search for lyrics of this song on the www, you'll find a standard set of lyrics that are all the same. And apparently the translation is not 100% correct. Including the lines that were quoted here.

As for Mr. C (following phirnis' question if it's Alan or Carl).
Mr. Carl or Mr. Chaplin? I Always thought it was the latter....


EDIT: reading mikey's and Heartical's reply, you probably meant Chaplin.

Sorry, me being obtuse - Blondie.

I got that set of lyrics from the Cabinessence website. Couldn't make them out myself.

Relistening to the whole record as I type, I have to say it sounds much better than I thought it would. I can definitely picture Brian being heavily involved in "He Come Down", which is not that different from what the group would later attempt with "That Same Song".

So was HCD written by Brian, Mike and Al or Carl, etc? Always wondered about that.
And I think that HCD is a great production and cool song, no matter who did it. I remember being blown away by it when I first heard it. The singing and arrangement are superb.

It's credited to Jardine/B. Wilson/Love.

Love that shrill organ sound at 2:45. Anyone know if Brian had a hand in the vocal arrangement?

Thanks ! My booklet just says Wilson/Jardine/Love, that's why I wondered

Ha! I *knew* Brian was...people used to say I was crazy when I said that years ago. I mean, never mind the fact you can hear his (admittedly buried) vocals.

Sweet vindication! :lol

I never thought otherwise. That track is so Brian.

Just catching up after an extended vacation.  From 1970 on:

!. Surf's Up
2. Holland
3. Sunflower
4. So Tough
5. 15 Big Ones
6. Still Cruisin'
7. Beach Boys '85
8. M.I.U.
9. Keeping the Summer Alive
10. L.A.
11. Love You

I've tried time and again to see what is at all appealing about Love You.  I keep coming up with "The Night Was So Young", "Let Us Go on This Way", "Ding Dang" and the rest is pure drivel.  So Tough was their last solid album.  I've never heard Summer in Paradise, but I'm not about to shell out $30 to give it a listen based on virtually everyone's opinion.

The first, last, and only time I found any redeeming value in "Love You" was on Sean Macreavys 15 minute medley on his cd "Dumb Angel".  I went from hating it to loving it.

But only Sean's version.  I can appreciate a lot of stuff that is said about the arrangements and melodies (Love You; 1977) but I still can't enjoy listening to the album.

WHAAATTT????? You can't not love Love You!! I get riled up every single time I hear "To get you babe I went through the ringer..."