Title: Ed Carter's contributions to Beach Boys records, late 60s early 70s Post by: Joshilyn Hoisington on February 11, 2006, 02:45:37 PM Does anybody know if Ed played on much else besides "Bluebirds" in that era? More specifically, did he make any contributions on Sunflower or Surf's Up, that anybody is aware of?
Title: Re: Ed Carter's contributions to Beach Boys records, late 60s early 70s Post by: Jason Penick on February 11, 2006, 02:58:52 PM lead guitar on "Student Demonstration Time", if I recall correctly.
Title: Re: Ed Carter's contributions to Beach Boys records, late 60s early 70s Post by: ♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇 on February 11, 2006, 03:48:18 PM Lead on San Miguel.
Title: Re: Ed Carter's contributions to Beach Boys records, late 60s early 70s Post by: c-man on February 11, 2006, 05:15:58 PM The lead on "Student Demonstration Time" was actually Carl.
Eddie C. played acoustic & electric wah-wah guitars on "Disney Girls", and probably lead guitar on "California Slide", or whatever the actual title is. The track sheets denote "Deasy" (guitarist Mike Deasy) and "Eddie". C-Man Title: Re: Ed Carter's contributions to Beach Boys records, late 60s early 70s Post by: Jason Penick on February 11, 2006, 05:30:15 PM The lead on "Student Demonstration Time" was actually Carl Didn't Ed Carter play it live though, or was that Carl as well? Title: Re: Ed Carter's contributions to Beach Boys records, late 60s early 70s Post by: c-man on February 11, 2006, 09:03:52 PM The lead on "Student Demonstration Time" was actually Carl Didn't Ed Carter play it live though, or was that Carl as well? I believe that was Carl, aided by Blondie when he joined up. Title: Re: Ed Carter's contributions to Beach Boys records, late 60s early 70s Post by: Jeff Mason on February 11, 2006, 09:12:12 PM Definitely Carl on SDT. That is TOTALLY Carl's playing style. If you know what to listen for, it is very distinctive. You can hear it on It's About Time too. Listen to his lead playing live if you can, on American Band or Knebworth. It is consistent.
Wouldn't Ed have done most of the bass on the Sunflower-era tracks? I have always assumed that, esp on songs like Slip On Through. Title: Re: Ed Carter's contributions to Beach Boys records, late 60s early 70s Post by: Joshilyn Hoisington on February 12, 2006, 12:25:38 AM Thanks guys, good stuff so far.
Yeah, I'm wondering about bass primarily, myself. There are a lot of tracks that don't sound like Carl or Al on bass, but seem to lack documentation. Ray Pohlman was still playing a bit of bass for Sunflower, but where he's not, I generally have no idea, on Surf's Up is a total cloudy haze for me. C-man, since we're sort of close to this subject anyway, have you ever sorted out the contract for "This Whole World", mainly who John Conrad is, and what David Cohen could possibly have two doubles for? Title: Re: Ed Carter's contributions to Beach Boys records, late 60s early 70s Post by: c-man on February 12, 2006, 06:32:56 AM Thanks guys, good stuff so far. Yeah, I'm wondering about bass primarily, myself. There are a lot of tracks that don't sound like Carl or Al on bass, but seem to lack documentation. Ray Pohlman was still playing a bit of bass for Sunflower, but where he's not, I generally have no idea, on Surf's Up is a total cloudy haze for me. C-man, since we're sort of close to this subject anyway, have you ever sorted out the contract for "This Whole World", mainly who John Conrad is, and what David Cohen could possibly have two doubles for? I don't think Eddie Carter was used for bass, or at least not much, in the studio in those days. Most of the "Sunflower" era seems to be pros like Joe Osborn ("Got To Know The Woman") and Ray Pohlman ("This Whole World", "Tears in the Morning") on bass, with Brian ("Add Some Music" and "Susie"), Carl ("Got To Know The Woman"...which means either he replaced Joe Osborn's track, or enhanced it), and probably Daryl ("It's About Time"). "Slip On Though" is so funky, it's probably someone with experience playing soul sessions. For "Surf's Up". much of it is Moog synth bass (Bruce on "Disney Girls". Brian on "Til I Die", probably Desper on "Day in the Life of a Tree" and the second section of "Surf's Up"), with Daryl playing bass guitar on "Don't Go Near The Water" and "Student Demo Time", and Carl playing it on "Long Promised Road" and "Feel Flows". Alan is likely playing bass on "Take A Load" and "Welfare Song", and Bruce has said he would sometimes play a bass part to patch up what someone else had started. I've yet to determine who John Conrad is, or what his contribution to "This Whole World" was. For Cohen, he evidently played a basic guitar part and two overdubs, which were either erased and recorded over, or blended with other tracks in a reduction mix. C-Man Title: Re: Ed Carter's contributions to Beach Boys records, late 60s early 70s Post by: Joshilyn Hoisington on February 12, 2006, 09:17:28 AM Quote I don't think Eddie Carter was used for bass, or at least not much, in the studio in those days. Most of the "Sunflower" era seems to be pros like Joe Osborn ("Got To Know The Woman") and Ray Pohlman ("This Whole World", "Tears in the Morning") on bass, with Brian ("Add Some Music" and "Susie"), Carl ("Got To Know The Woman"...which means either he replaced Joe Osborn's track, or enhanced it), and probably Daryl ("It's About Time"). "Slip On Though" is so funky, it's probably someone with experience playing soul sessions. Your virtuosity is unmatched, Craig. Joe Osborn!? Really? Is that anecdotal or documented. I didn't know he ever played on a Beach Boys session. I also wasn't particularly aware that Daryl played anything other than keyboard-based instruments (including vibes) for the boys on record. Quote For "Surf's Up". much of it is Moog synth bass (Bruce on "Disney Girls". Brian on "Til I Die" It's definitely not Moog bass on 'Til I Die, despite what Steve says. You can't quite get that kind of pick attack and string vibration decay on a modular synth. Whoever played bass on 'Til I Die was not a Beach Boy, I would bet a lot on that. Quote probably Desper on "Day in the Life of a Tree" and the second section of "Surf's Up"), with Daryl playing bass guitar on "Don't Go Near The Water" and "Student Demo Time", and Carl playing it on "Long Promised Road" and "Feel Flows". Alan is likely playing bass on "Take A Load" and "Welfare Song", and Bruce has said he would sometimes play a bass part to patch up what someone else had started. Bruce certainly has downplayed his bass contributions, hasn't he? I mean, he's denied playing bass on a lot of things where it's clear he is, particularly Party! Quote I've yet to determine who John Conrad is, or what his contribution to "This Whole World" was. For Cohen, he evidently played a basic guitar part and two overdubs, which were either erased and recorded over, or blended with other tracks in a reduction mix. Very confusing. Gram Parsons used a bass played named John Conrad for some of his sessions in Hollywood, but it doesn't sound to me like two basses were used. The guitar thing is completely strange, becase Jerry Cole was also present, and I only hear two guitar parts, one playing the rhythm power chords and the other string-skipping fills and such, and it's notated as such on the track sheet, just two guitars on the initial 8-track session. Title: Re: Ed Carter's contributions to Beach Boys records, late 60s early 70s Post by: c-man on February 12, 2006, 11:26:22 AM [Joe Osborn!? Really? Is that anecdotal or documented. I didn't know he ever played on a Beach Boys session. Documented. Well, at least a "J. Osborn" having played on the session is. He also played two doubles, none of which are ID'd. This was Sunset Sound, 2/13/69. But, that doesn't mean his work survived til the end. If I recall correctly without looking, Badman says there were organ & fuzz guitar overdubs done at Sunset, which I don't hear on the finished record, and Desper says the song was in production for several months before being finished, meaning lots of things could have been added and subtracted. Quote For "Surf's Up". much of it is Moog synth bass (Bruce on "Disney Girls". Brian on "Til I Die" It's definitely not Moog bass on 'Til I Die, despite what Steve says. You can't quite get that kind of pick attack and string vibration decay on a modular synth. Whoever played bass on 'Til I Die was not a Beach Boy, I would bet a lot on that. I've struggled with that, too (Moog vs. bass guitar on that track). To me, at different times, it sounds like both. And if it is in fact bass guitar, it's probably Daryl Dragon. C-Man Title: Re: Ed Carter's contributions to Beach Boys records, late 60s early 70s Post by: Joshilyn Hoisington on February 12, 2006, 11:36:23 AM The tracksheet that Alan graciously provided for 'Til I Die says "Bass." Maybe we can get him over here to clear up if tracks with obvious Moog bass were notated as "Moog" "Moog Bass" or "Bass" or what...
I bet he could clear up what's all on the final 16-track master for GtKtW too, if there's any unused fuzz bass. I'll say it again, what a fascinating period of time! Title: Re: Ed Carter's contributions to Beach Boys records, late 60s early 70s Post by: Joshilyn Hoisington on February 12, 2006, 11:37:41 AM Also, about Daryl playing bass, has he spoken about that in any interviews that are easily obtainable on the 'net? I'd like to explore this more.
Title: Re: Ed Carter's contributions to Beach Boys records, late 60s early 70s Post by: c-man on February 12, 2006, 12:26:12 PM Also, about Daryl playing bass, has he spoken about that in any interviews that are easily obtainable on the 'net? I'd like to explore this more. I'll try to think and let you know...in the meantime, there IS a photo of Daryl playing bass in the studio...he's sitting in a chair, next to Carl who's also sitting in a chair, playing guitar. Neither has headphones on, and they look really relaxed, so they may not have been tracking at the moment, but they're obviously jamming. It was in Part Two of that 1971 Rolling Stone story. C-Man Title: Re: Ed Carter's contributions to Beach Boys records, late 60s early 70s Post by: Joshilyn Hoisington on February 12, 2006, 12:31:00 PM Neat. I'll keep my eye out for that.
Title: Re: Ed Carter's contributions to Beach Boys records, late 60s early 70s Post by: Joshilyn Hoisington on February 12, 2006, 12:31:46 PM But I do have to ask, or I'll lay awake tonight wondering: Fender Precision Bass, Daryl's playing?
Title: Re: Ed Carter's contributions to Beach Boys records, late 60s early 70s Post by: c-man on February 12, 2006, 12:39:41 PM But I do have to ask, or I'll lay awake tonight wondering: Fender Precision Bass, Daryl's playing? Either that, or a Jazz bass. Hard to tell, 'cause his knee and right hand partially obscure it. Looks to be white. Carl's playing a 6-string Gibson. Both of them are sitting, with one leg crossed on the other knee, and both have shades on. They look the epitome of COOL. C-Man Title: Re: Ed Carter's contributions to Beach Boys records, late 60s early 70s Post by: Joshilyn Hoisington on February 12, 2006, 12:43:25 PM Hmm, well, I guess you saved me a few hours of sleep. Still, the lingering doubt may be a pea to my princess...
Title: Re: Ed Carter's contributions to Beach Boys records, late 60s early 70s Post by: Joshilyn Hoisington on February 13, 2006, 01:01:42 PM OK, so has anybody determined the exact "Beach Boys Band" line-up that re-cut Cotton Fields at Sunset?
Title: Re: Ed Carter's contributions to Beach Boys records, late 60s early 70s Post by: Jason on February 13, 2006, 01:02:25 PM Wasn't it the BBs augmented with Dennis Dragon, Daryl Dragon, and Red Rhodes?
Title: Re: Ed Carter's contributions to Beach Boys records, late 60s early 70s Post by: Joshilyn Hoisington on February 13, 2006, 01:19:23 PM You tell me. Unless Dennis, Carl, and Brian took up trumpets and saxes, there have to be a few more ladies or gents than just those guys.
Title: Re: Ed Carter's contributions to Beach Boys records, late 60s early 70s Post by: Jason on February 13, 2006, 01:20:16 PM I'm assuming the regular band was the BBs with Dennis D., Daryl D., and Red Rhodes. The overdubs, I have no idea.
Title: Re: Ed Carter's contributions to Beach Boys records, late 60s early 70s Post by: Joshilyn Hoisington on February 13, 2006, 01:24:57 PM Assuming it wasn't all cut live. I mean, there's obviously overdubs, but there's just a lot of instrumentation, I hear possibly three acoustic guitars, Red, another electric guitar, Drums, percussion, piano, organ, two basses (Fender plus String, I think, but could be two Fenders), then a large horn section, probably three trumpets and I'd wager at least 5 saxes.
Title: Re: Ed Carter's contributions to Beach Boys records, late 60s early 70s Post by: Jason on February 13, 2006, 01:26:15 PM Well, that's probably a question for Alan.
Title: Re: Ed Carter's contributions to Beach Boys records, late 60s early 70s Post by: Joshilyn Hoisington on February 13, 2006, 01:34:27 PM I think I already have too many questions in to that poor, generous man. I might scare him away if I keep asking about the contents of track sheets.
Title: Re: Ed Carter's contributions to Beach Boys records, late 60s early 70s Post by: Mitchell on February 13, 2006, 01:57:07 PM Assuming it wasn't all cut live. I mean, there's obviously overdubs, but there's just a lot of instrumentation, I hear possibly three acoustic guitars, Red, another electric guitar, Drums, percussion, piano, organ, two basses (Fender plus String, I think, but could be two Fenders), then a large horn section, probably three trumpets and I'd wager at least 5 saxes. And a Jew's harp. Title: Re: Ed Carter's contributions to Beach Boys records, late 60s early 70s Post by: Joshilyn Hoisington on February 13, 2006, 01:59:38 PM Quote And a Jew's harp. I consider that part of "percussion." Title: Re: Ed Carter's contributions to Beach Boys records, late 60s early 70s Post by: Mitchell on February 13, 2006, 02:12:27 PM So it is.
Title: Re: Ed Carter's contributions to Beach Boys records, late 60s early 70s Post by: c-man on February 13, 2006, 06:02:11 PM Well, Badman apparently found documentation of an ABC TV appearance taped Aug. 19, '69, that included Red Rhodes, Daryl & Dennis Dragon, Ed Carter, and the following horn players:
Fred Koyen, Bill Byrne, Bill Peterson, and David Edwards. This was a mere four days after the recording session. Now, these guys COULD be the regular traveling band, including the horn section, that they brought on tour with them at the time (except Rhodes, of course), and it would make sense that they would do the TV show with them. If they used their road band on the recording session, as Al apparently confirms, then it's probably all of these guys. FYI, there's some confusion over exactly where this version of "Cottonfields" was recorded. Al has said "Sunset Sound", but documentation apparently cites "S.I.R." (Studio Instrument Rentals). One possible explanation: at the time, S.I.R. included a large soundstage which they called...the "Sunset Soundstage". :) C-Man Title: Re: Ed Carter's contributions to Beach Boys records, late 60s early 70s Post by: Mark H. on February 13, 2006, 07:10:28 PM Here is a pic of Carl and Daryl...someone mentioned. Dennis is a bonus.
(http://img125.imageshack.us/img125/1438/carldaryell7us.jpg) (http://imageshack.us) Title: Re: Ed Carter's contributions to Beach Boys records, late 60s early 70s Post by: c-man on February 13, 2006, 07:31:54 PM See what I mean? Cool just doesn't get any cooler! (Dennis too!)
C-Man Title: Re: Ed Carter's contributions to Beach Boys records, late 60s early 70s Post by: Joshilyn Hoisington on February 14, 2006, 12:10:05 AM Awesome, Mark. Thanks. Why in god's name are there not more pictures from the studio like that!?!?!
Title: Re: Ed Carter's contributions to Beach Boys records, late 60s early 70s Post by: Mark H. on February 14, 2006, 01:46:21 PM I think that picture is from the Surf's Up era.....there was a whole series of shots at Brian's Bellagio studio on the lp sleeve etc. Many others are more commonly seen. That's my guess anyway.
Title: Re: Ed Carter's contributions to Beach Boys records, late 60s early 70s Post by: Joshilyn Hoisington on February 14, 2006, 01:59:46 PM I would just think that there would be a lot of photos of the interior of the studio, with musicians in place, etc, than there are. I think there's more photographic evidence of alien life than photographic evidence that the Beach Boys ever actually recorded anything.
Title: Re: Ed Carter's contributions to Beach Boys records, late 60s early 70s Post by: Surfer Joe on February 14, 2006, 02:25:53 PM Isn't Earl Leaf or someone like that supposed to be sitting on a huge trove of unseen photos?
Title: Re: Ed Carter's contributions to Beach Boys records, late 60s early 70s Post by: Joshilyn Hoisington on February 14, 2006, 02:30:42 PM Or David Leaf, who I'm sure has a lot of unseen ones.
Title: Re: Ed Carter's contributions to Beach Boys records, late 60s early 70s Post by: Surfer Joe on February 14, 2006, 03:23:14 PM We may be getting fairly near the end of the unheard recordings, but the unseen photos
are another matter. I imagine there are thousands, maybe tens of thousands. Wrecking Crew members, engineers, publicists, their families...where did the great pictures of Brian with the little girls and their copies of "The Little Girl I Once Knew" singles (from the Roxy DVD) turn up? And where were those taken? But I seem to recall something about Earl Leaf (I think?) having an unimaginably huge vault of unseen photos, which would surely include some studio shots, which he said (on some board) that he wouldn't have time to catalogue for years. Title: Re: Ed Carter's contributions to Beach Boys records, late 60s early 70s Post by: Joshilyn Hoisington on February 14, 2006, 03:25:34 PM Well, it would deeply enhance my life, and I'm sure the lives of many others, to see more shots of the Beach Boys in the studio. The Carl/Daryl picture really made my week. I mean, it just opens up a whole new understanding of the home studio for me.
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