The Smiley Smile Message Board

While in many ways, they sound like the opposite of the Beach Boys in every way (often raw, unpolished recordings; general emphasis on lyrics over melody or arrangements, NYC vs. LA, etc.), I gravitated toward VU at the same time I did the Beach Boys -- the mid-to-late '90s. And, amusingly enough, Thurston Moore says he also lumped them together (although a long time before I did).

I think Lou Reed is one of America's greatest rock/pop songwriters, and love not only almost all of VU's material, but several of his own albums over the years, such as Transformer, Berlin, New York and Ecstasy. (My favorite VU album, I admit while acknowledging the heresy, it probably Loaded, and specifically the Fully Loaded edition, which includes the Ride Into The Sun outtake from that era).

What does everyone else think?

I agree with you on everything, especially on the fact that Sister Ray is their best song.

OK, we're not having THAT discussion again.

The five songs that most blatantly stand out as far superior to Sister Ray:

Ride Into the Sun (outtake, mentioned above)
Sunday Morning (ah, the celeste...)
I'm Waiting For My Man (my favorite, a great, heavy rocking tune)
Candy Says
Pale Blue Eyes

and, just for good measure: Sweet Jane, Who Loves the Sun, WHite Light/White Heat and Beginning to See The Light. And the Ocean.

HAHA!
You forgot Venus In Furs, I'll Be Your Mirror, Femme Fatale, All Tomorrow's Parties, Jesus and I Found A Reason.

I do like the bulk of those far more than Sister Ray, now that you mention it.

 ;)

And, by the way, apparently nobody else likes VU much...

That's just because we've had a few threads. They'll come, let's just keep this thread afloat.

The Velvets are absolutely essential listening. A cornerstone in the formation of punk, along with Suicide and the New York Dolls. The third album is the best by far. Sure, the first album had Brian Eno's classic comment attached to it, but it doesn't even come close to the third album.

Has anyone here heard the Squeeze album? I heard it the other day (the beauty of bit torrent) and boy did it suck. There should be no conjecture as to who the real genius was in the VU.

I'm a first two VU albums person, as opposed to a last two.
I love the third, but it's too toned down in a reactionary way, and it inspired too many morons like REM.

Cpt. Howdy, two big hits in one day. Very amusing.

The third album influenced the awesome, underrated Galaxie 500. That's proof enough for me that it's a great album.

*blows*

 ;D

Yup, and yup. Me too. Screw "heresy," its their best album songwriting wise, no question. "Who Loves The Sun," "Sweet Jane," "Rock n' Roll," "Oh! Sweet Nothin,'" "New Age," "Hold Your Head Up High," "Train Round The Bend," the gorgeous gorgeous "I Found A Reason" -- hoo boy. That's a lineup. And yes, "Ride Into The Sun" is essential as well, a magnificent song that shoulda been on the LP.

My second favorite is probably the first album, but I really rate the "lost album" as well, and the third one, and hell, White Light!

All four original albums AND the "lost album" are essential, in my opinion. I can't imagine anyone considering him- or herself a well-educated pop fan without having at least absorbed them (if not liked) them.

Yep, Luther. Good on ya.
Loaded may be their best album songwriting-wise, but that's not necessarily what the VU were about. And any album without Maureen isn't really the VU, as Lou, Sterling and Doug have said.

While we ask, let's find out what Doug would say about any album without Cale!

 

Cale was pretty essential as well, IMO.

The funny thing is, as much as I appreciate his musical abilities and lineage, I never really liked much of what Cale did on his own. Reed, on the other hand...

Same here, with the exceptions of Paris 1919 and Vintage Violence. Reed cleans him out though. Cale has nothing like Berlin or Magic And Loss in him.
What a great producer is Cale, though! Patti, Stooges, Modern Lovers etc.

Agreed to all...except Vintage Violence, which I put right near the rest of his solo stuff other than Paris 1919 (which I do like).

Listen to the Brian Eno/Cale collaborations.

I have. Not a fan.

Me either, unfortunately. And I'm a big Eno guy. His stuff with Fripp and Byrne is far superior to my ears.

I'm not an Eno guy at all. If I were feeling more sarcastic at the time, my response would've been "two wrongs dont make a right." But I'd hate to have anyone talk about what I may or may not be b!owing...

IMO, any album without Sterl isn't really the VU. While Mo was essential to the sound, the REAL VU sound is locked up in the skittering guitars of Sterling Morrisson!! Hell, he turns freaking Luna into the VU on that one album from the early 90s. Granted, they were halfway there already, but...

I thought Galaxie 500 had more in common with the VU than Luna did. But then again, both bands can lay claim to Dean Wareham's excellent songwriting and guitar picking.

"Good evening, we're the Velvet Underground, better believe it. Glad you could all make it. We saw your Cowboys today. They never let Philadelphia even have the ball for a minute. It was 42 to 7 by the half. You oughtta give other people just a little chance. In football anyway. You people have a curfew or anything like that? You got school tomorrow? This song is called 'I'm Waiting For My Man'."

No mention of "1969: Live" yet, so thought I'd mention it. John Cale is missing, but not Mo. "What Goes On" kicks ass, Yule weaves an eight-minute organ riff, Reed strumming that guitar like there's no tommorrow. The band trys out some new songs for the forthcoming studio LP: 'Loaded". "Sweet Jane" featuring the 'Heavenly wine and roses seem to whisper to me when you smile' bit. 

'A little wine in the morning and some breakfast at night, I'm Beginning To See The Light...'

Favorite VU album.

For me, neck and neck with The Beatles as the greatest rock band ever. Period. There's little or no bad Velvet Underground music in my book.

I'll contribut more in a bit.

Whatever happened to the VU Bootleg Series? Is that going to see some more releases, or did Volume 1 sell like sh*t?

I do. VU bores me and I have the box set. And we've been through this.

And you're still just as wrong as the last time you said it.

That doesn't bother me at all. My only point is that they are an essential listen. Nobody is required to like anything, so you can dismiss them now...with my blessing. And believe me, my blessing is also essential (although not quite as essential as VU).

Sales aren't the problem. There's some kind of cloudy legal wrangling going on in the Velvet camp. It hasn't been discussed publicly in any detail, but somebody has put the brakes on further releases for now. (Reed being his usual paranoid, domineering, petty self?) There was also talk at one time of a deluxe edtition of the third album with unheard demos, and an expanded "lost album" package in the works. These would be great. Hopefully things will get back on track.

In the meantime, some seriously exciting material has come to us via real bootlegs. We talked a little in the past about the acetate from the first album sessions; featuring alternate takes of "Heroin," "Venus In Furs" and "I'm Waiting For The Man," an unedited "Black Angel's Death Song" with an extra minute of music, "Femme Fatale" with backing vocals that were mixed out of the final release, and alternate mixes of the other tracks. There's also some unused mixes from the third album recently discovered (did these surface as a result of the stalled "deluxe edition"? Supposedly found in Sterling's closet after he died, some of them are quite nice, echoey and dreamy. And there's also a good quality tape of some January and March '66 rehearsals at Warhol's Factory, the earliest of which may be the very first sessions with Nico. These have been around for awhile, but always in dismal quality. Now we've got a really good source. And finally, there's a mono promo of the "Loaded" album that was pressed up for a handful of big AM radio stations. It sounds like it's just the stereo mix folded down to mono, which is probably exactly what it is. Kinda cool to have anyway, though, having been unaware that such a thing existed.

Of that first album acetate, known as the "Dolph acetate" after engineer Norman Dolph, there are now two copies making the rounds, a complete one and an edited one. The complete one comes from Moe Tucker's copy, it's very, very scratchy, you can hear the music fine, but there's a blizzard of pops and clicks running under it. The other copy is the famous one sold at a garage sale for a buck a year ago. Much cleaner, but on the copy going around, the guy edited off the beginings and endings of the songs, to use as a sampler copy, I guess hoping to sell the original to somebody for a huge payoff.
Here's the basic story of this amazing find, taken from a VU webpage:

Norman Dolph recalled the acetate as something that was pressed at Columbia, he recognized the matrix number, he was working at Columbia at the time and so sent the master tapes upstairs to get a acetate cut, he used this acetate to submit to Columbia executives to see if they were interested in releasing the thing, apparently he still has the rejection letter from them essentially saying "are you out of your fucking mind" his words. He thinks that he may have given the acetate to either Warhol or Cale when Columbia sent it back to him.

The acetate was discovered (and bought for $0.75!) around 2004 at a yard sale in Chelsea, New York. An incomplete 'edited' version was released as bonus CDR with the 100 first copies of At The Factory - Warhol Tapes bootleg CD. Another (more scratchy) copy which was used for the Ultimate Mono And Acetates Album bootleg which offers the complete recording.

The versions of Heroin, Waiting for The Man, and Venus In Furs are quite different from the ones available on The Velvet Underground And Nico album. Also some of the mixes are a little different than the album final versions.

European Son is a longer version with a one-minute extra guitar solo after the 'plate break', which was probably edited out for the final release.

All Tomorrow's Parties is the alternate 'single voice' version.

I'll Be Your Mirror is possibly the same take, but with alternate Nico vocal track. Nico ends second verse with "to show that you're home" instead of "so you won't be afraid", and it has quieter "reflect what you are" backing vocals vocals at the end.

The version of Heroin has different lyrics starting with "I know just where I'm going" instead of "I don't know just where I'm going", a shorter intro before the lyrics start as well as a significantly different guitar line.

Femme Fatale seems to be the same take but with alternate 'falsetto' "she's a femme fatale" backing vocals.

Venus In Furs is an alternate take as well.

Waiting For The Man starts with the lyrics "waiting for the man" in N. Dolph's version but starts with "waiting for my man" as well near the end of the released version Lou Reed says "walk it on home" which is absent on the released version.

(Ian, I'll send all this over as promised, I'm just waiting for the Factory rehearsals to arrive at my door.)

Man, wait for me to get your Runaways DVD to you. I just found another hour of stuff, and I'm gonna burn it all. You're TOO nice to me. I'm STILL blasting the Spector CD, even though Xmas is over.