The Smiley Smile Message Board

I'll start it, since no one else did. Mr. Gaines, it seems you're willing to answer some questions and interact a little bit.  If this is too much, it can just slide down the board and disappear.

Anyway, I think we're all very pleasantly surprised to find you in our midst and appreciate anything you're willing to share about the writing of your book and (of course) the book itself. For me, Heroes & Villains was the first Beach Boys book I ever got my hands on; I picked it up at the mall in a small college town in Georgia right when it came out.  My copy is sitting here by my computer now.  This was my first substantial window into the band beyond the records themselves; my first good look at the Rovells, Murry, Hite Morgan, Landy, and the other guy on the covers, David Marks. 

Oddly enough, at the time, I was even more interested in finding a definitive Jan and Dean biography (a book we're still waiting for).   I had thought they'd be more interesting. After all, they'd had a TV movie.

The other Beach Boys books I fished out of used shops over the next few years were written by super-fans, and worked a different side of the street.

I have a list of questions, and I'm sure a lot of folks will, and (although it's remained with me pretty well), I'm going to re-read your book for the first time since the Fall of 1986.  I'll start simple:

Why is Carl such a rare interview?

Thanks in advance for your participation here.

Hey, don't rush me . . . I work for a living.  :-D

When I was a teenager, a guy at my church- I can't remember who now- had filled me in, in great detail, about Jan and Dean, right after I had seen the movie.  No memory now of what he had told me, or whether ANY of it was accurate- "information" that was out there back then was a mess-  but he had the passion, and he transferred it to me.  Hell, it was hard enough then for me to even collect the albums.

When I first laid eyes on Heroes & Villains at B. Dalton's in 1986, it was an exciting moment- but the first thing I did was look up all the Jan and Dean stuff, before I even took it to the counter.

One of you guys get to work- there's an equally amazing personal story there and I want to read it.

I don't really know the answer to why Carl didn't give many interviews but he didn't seem to be very verbal and didn't really enjoy speaking to the press. 

When I've seen filmed interviews of either Carl or Dennis, it's always struck me how much they shared characteristics of and talked similarly to Brian.  Which is probably not surprising for brothers, but things about Brian that might be interpreted as his "daftness" are things that might just be part of the Wilson family personality.  Brian has never been much of a talker, and maybe Carl shared that trait.

Thanks for responding- did Carl talk to you at all? 


I'll be starting a re-read of your book tonight so I can come up with some good questions.

Thats weird, I've heard radio interviews of Carl and he seemed really comfortable and quite chatty.

He was the most opaque of the Beach Boys- outside of the music, we mostly only get glimpses of him through public things like his conscientious objector battle, and little anecdotes, like blasting the freshly mixed "Good Vibrations" through his neighborhood after hours.  I also think of the prostitute story from the book under discussion here- "She didn't even care".

A friend of mine caught him on the way to the stage in Atlanta before an eighties Beach Boys/Chicago show and got him to sign something.  He said "thank you" to Carl's back, as Carl walked away, and Carl turned to reply, with emphasis, "No, thank YOU." That's become my capsule image of him.

Another thing about Carl -- he wasn't Brian, and he wasn't Mike.  So maybe he didn't get asked as much to be interviewed. 

A friend of mine caught him on the way to the stage in Atlanta before an eighties Beach Boys/Chicago show and got him to sign something.  He said "thank you" to Carl's back, as Carl walked away, and Carl turned to reply, with emphasis, "No, thank YOU." That's become my capsule image of him.

Surfer Joe -- Your capsule image of Carl is totally correct.  I'm only sorry for your sake you don't have a memory or two of Carl of your own.

The last time I talked with Carl was on March 29th, 1996 at the Riviera in Las Vegas.  Through a friend's connections I was lucky enough to be there.  He had just been through what I thought would be a soundcheck but turned into a full-blown rehearsal due to two new members in the backing band (Chris Farmer who'd played with them before and Tim Bonhomme).  It lasted 160 mins from start to finish.  They had two shows to do that night but Carl still took the time to talk with me and my friend for about ten mins.  Carl remembered my name from me having spoken with him on the "Big Red Boat Cruise" in May of 1995.  The bulk of that conversation was about pictures of the house that Audree was born in in South Minneapolis.  I gave him copies of those pics I'd taken (the info courtesy of Timothy White's book...page 62 I think) .  Obviously, I lived in the Minneapolis area at the time.

How many "Rock Stars" would remember the name of just another fan from ten months earlier? 

I've said this before about Carl Dean Wilson.  He was both a gentleman and a gentle man!  I miss him tremendously and will until the day I die.

I hate being so young. I was ten when Carl died, and I didn't even know who he was until six years after that.

Carl Wilson and John Denver are two of the people I would've most liked to have met, or even seen in person, but never ever will.

Great story, thanks for sharing that- I'm sure we'd all like to hear more about that rehearsal.  I never met Carl, but was lucky enough to see him perform a number of times. I got to see Dennis once, too...

Which brings up another question for the subject of this thread: having been at the famous '76 birthday party, did you have any interaction with Dennis? Also, how did you go about recreating those last days so vividly?  It must have still been a VERY awkward topic.  Finally, did you show up in any of the documentaries that include footage from that party?

I've got to admit my interaction with Carl was limited, and the observation that he didn't talk as much because most of the media centered on Brian or Mike or Dennis is probably closer to the truth than that he was just taciturn.  I also think its true that he was a gentleman, yet he had some of the same issues as the rest of the Wilson clan.

As for my easy, direct access to the group, most of my taped conversations took place during the preparation for the New West magazine article.  Also, I interviewed various members of the band over the years for my column in the Sunday News in New York.

Remember, after the New West article I wrote a book about the Beatles that was a huge international success but at the time seemed shocking. (The Beatles took drugs!  The Beatles had sex with girls on the road!  Cold Turkey was a song about John kicking heroin!)  The Beach Boys read or knew about the book, and when it was announced that I was going to write a biography of the Beach Boys they weren't any too happy.  They closed ranks.

As for the 1976 birthday party, you've got to remember that my being there was just luck.  I had no idea that the party would have any significance.  Maybe it didn't have any significance, maybe it was just because I wrote about it, who knows?  I have very vivid memories of being there.  I was nervous and an outsider.  The Beach Boys were wary of journalists.  I was very distracted by the presence of Paul McCartney (who I would later get to know when I wrote the book about the Beatles) and I spent a lot of my time talking to Audree about the weather.

I introduced myself to everyone, but there was a lot of big egos in the room and I could hardly breathe.

As far as I know I never showed up in any of the footage.  (The first thing Lorne Michaels said to me was "Don't ask me to write for Saturday Night Live.")

I don't remember Dennis at that party, but I had a long, weird, surprising interview with Dennis later that trip, I think.  Or maybe it was for a Beach Boy article I wrote for my Top of the Pop column in the Sunday News in New York.  I remember really liking Dennis, but he was marked for doom, he was out of control.

When I started work on the book I contacted Karen Lamm and arranged for her to read aloud to me in person, recorded on tape, all of her diaries from the time she met Dennis until his death.

I knew that journalistically I wanted to recreate Dennis' last days, the way Bob Wooward had done about John Belushi. 

It was very hard to get people to talk to me.  I was a vulture, and the tragedy of Dennis' death was a raw, painful subject, and everyone cried a lot in the retelling--well, almost everyone.  I'm glad now that I went through the embarrassment and uncomfortable moments to recreate his last days in such detail.

By the way, I hated the Beach Boy movie they made from my book, I had no say in it, and the producers did a lousy job.

Fascinating reply; you've anticipated several of my next questions (though I may ask some of them anyway) and comments.  One comment I had wanted to make was that some of the younger posters on this board may not realize what a big, hairy, freaking deal the Peter Brown/Beatles book was at the time, so I think we (fans) did see you coming, and knew it might not be pretty.  I even had an argument with my high school girlfriend because she bought the Beatles book.  I'll never forget your appearance on the infamous Morton Downey Jr. show and what they did with your book there- which I'll leave to you to tell, if you recall. You kind of laughed your way through it. (You were slumming with idiots).

I am re-reading the book (H & V) now, and am not surprised at how vivid it has remained in my memory after 22 years.  It remains well-written, extremely well-researched, and extremely brutal.

Next up- and this is a no-brainer for us to ask- you mention that Carl showed signs of some of the Wilson "issues". Would it be out of bounds to ask you to expand on that? 

I won't keep saying this ad nauseum, but thanks for your participation here and for for opening up. You don't owe it to us to submit to a grilling, but we're very, very interested.

I would say drug abuse would be at or near the top of the list.

M.

Speaking of Carl that 1978 Australian meeting you included is fascinating. Did you get a tape or transcript? In any case it provides great insight into why the Beach Boys went into a personal and creative decline.

Without a doubt...hoping to get some more detailed insight.  While we're waiting I might as well lob a soft one in there to balance the tougher  one: since 1986, how much have you kept up as a fan, and have you kept close tabs on things like Brian Wilson Presents SMiLE, the lawsuits, the Was documentary, and the California Board Of Medical Quality sticking its big, black foot up Landy's ass*?

*Metaphor courtesy of Chris Rock

I appeared on the Mort Downey show, with a good haircut as I remember, because Albert Goldman had just published a scathing, lying, nasty book about John Lennon and he left the country because he couldn't take the heat.  Downey was looking for another Beatles' author and I agreed to go on the show.  The book Downey put in the pirhanna tank was Goldman's book, not mine.  All the anger that the audience and other people on the show had for Goldman was directed at me.  They were "pieing" people (throwing pies in the face of people they didn't like) and I wanted to avoid that embarrassment.  Most of all I found myself defending the right to write a book about living people.  I do remember there was a jerk from Twisted Sister on the show with me who was bitching about the possibility that one day somebody would write a book about him.  What a laugh!  John Lennon changed history, as far as I'm concerned.  I think I told Downey and his audience of idiots that Lennon wasn't just some guy with a guitar and that he was an important figure in the 20th century and he deserved a full-fledged biography, but not the crap that Goldman has written.

Twisted Sister is part of the junk pile of rock and roll.  Goldman died of a heart attack on an airplane, all coked-up.  Downey died of lung cancer. 

Yes, "The Love You Make" about the Beatles was huge, and not just with Beatle fans.  It was an international blockbuster and it's still the biggest selling book about the group.  The Beatle Book had an emphasis on the private lives of the group, and their personal relationships.  When I set out to write the Beach Boy book I took the same tact.

I have to repeat what I've said all these years.  I love rock and roll.  Music saved my life.  But I've never been a musicologist or a music critic.  I always wrote more about the people in the business and the business of rock and roll, with much less of an emphasis on the music itself.

As for Carl, like the other brothers, he had a problem with drugs and alcohol.  That didn't change the fact that he was a really nice guy.

Stan and Rocky sold me a copy of the "heroin tape" from Australia.  They hid a tape recorder in the room under a chair.  You can actually hear the sound of the punch connecting with Carl's face. 

Finally, I haven't kept up with the Beach Boys since I wrote the book.  I was asked to testify as an "expert witness" in three lawsuits over the years and so I was still involved on the periphery--and I had something to do with Brian and the others getting back royalties (Marilyn loved me for this) but otherwise I drifted away.

I still listen to the music, all the time. 

Ah, thank you for that- after posting, I was asking myself why I was watching that 1n 1988 (because I remember where I was) when your Beatle book was much earlier. That explains it, and it all comes back to me. You were taking someone else's beating. And to anyone who still doubted the identity of our guest (I never did for a second), here's your polygraph key, as I could find no other reference to this incident on the net just now.  (It wasn't intended as a test, though!)

Just came from re-reading the passage on Dennis' death in your book- extremely affecting, once again.  Just painful. As an aside, former Los Angeles County Coroner Thomas Noguchi wrote a book about famous L.A. cases he wasn't personally involved with, including Freddie Prinz, for example, and Dennis.  He theorized that Dennis died in a state of euphoria. I hope he's right.

I guess what frustrates me is that we'll never really get that vivid fly-on-the-wall glimpse into Carl's life and what really made him tick.  So- time for another of my questions.

You've indicated that the friendliness with Marilyn survived the book- not surprising in one sense, because she is such a warm and charming person (a few of us here have met her, too)- but surprising in another sense: she may have benefited the most in your text, sympathetically, and she may have also suffered the most. Have you had any other responses from  or encounters with your old subjects, good or bad? 

Also, can you tell us where and how you found David Marks in the mid-eighties?  (I mean life-wise; he was in my Burbank phone book for years!)  Nowadays he seems like the wise old reformed hippy who's kind of beaten the house, he's had a (very positive) book written about him, and he's putting out great music, old and new, through his website.

And everybody else, please get in on this.  Don't leave it to me.  It's an opportunity. Andrew?  Josh?  Cam? We have this guy here who has done, in numerous ways, probably the most thorough job of research on the band members' lives ever (especially in a concentrated period); he's opening up to us; giving excellent, candid answers; we haven't even bought him a drink yet; if he gets out of here unmolested, or insufficiently molested, we'll hate ourselves in the morning. 

And incidentally, I hear Kitty Kelly is currently working on that Twisted Sister book.

Sorry to prattle, but one other thing: because I mixed up the circumstances with the Downey show, don't think I would mix your work up with Goldman's. I picked up his Elvis book in the drug store when I was in high school, not knowing what it was.  After about thirty pages of total disgust, I shelved the thing and never looked back-even though I had read the bodyguard book (Elvis- What Happened?) with great interest.  Even at that age I knew slime when I read it. Sliming your subject (like Goldman did)  is very different than shining a very harsh and not always sympathetic light.

Surfer Joe and Stevne Gaines: it might look bit egoistic, right now I'm just really enjoying your conversation. To be more exact: just when I was thinking that, I started reading your calling to participate. I should really start re-reading that book again (has been a while).

But - again - great questions and answers thus far. Will try to come up with questions as well (if Steven doesn't mind  :)  )

Hi Steven (and Surfer Joe),

It's a little intimidating to answer this particular call for participation if you're not a heavyweight (Cam Andrew Alan etc.) but in the spirit of egalitarianism
I will try to add a worthwhile interjection.

I don't have historical details at my fingertips as some do, and it feels a little voyeuristic to dig too deeply into interpersonal band relations, but there is an
undeniably compelling quality to their lives and music, at once poignant, tragic and triumphant, that inspires curiosity. It's fascinating to hear your anecdotes.

Thank you for posting your frank and interesting comments, and hope we can continue to contribute adequately to the dialogue to make it worth your while. I unfortunately can't think of anything right now!

I also need to find and reread my copy of the book, but as I remember it was very well written, if sensational (true to the source material), and it's good to
hear that you disavow the cheapening and distastefulness of the filmed version.

Not meant that way at all- just calling for more people to take advantage of this opportunity, which should not be blown.  This guy has not been generally available to us for 22 years and there's a lot of knowledge and insight here.

Re-reading the book right now, I'm amazed at how completely I remember it- I must have read it more than once.  Somewhere on almost every page, I can remember a sentence that's coming later in the paragraph.  But it's a very different experience in another way- in 1986 it was the first Beach Boys book I'd read. This time around I've read a dozen or so others, but none seem to compare except for maybe the Timothy White book in terms of research- who the hell else talked to Murry's brothers? Or other residents of W. 119th Street? (Relax, I'm sure someone did).  But how many people have given us much insight into Bud Wilson?

Which begs another question, and though I think it'll rate a one word answer, I'll ask it: other than Wouldn't It Be Landy, have you read any of the other things published on Brian and the band since 1986?

Welcome Steven. I recently re-read the book too. The first Beach Boys book I ever read, bought it when I was probably 10 or so but didn't really read it for a few years after. I still enjoy it today. No questions come to my mind right away, but I will try and think of something.

Thanks for the insight about the tape. Rocky sure doesn't come off good on the tape but I guess he saw the value in keeping it. It was worth what you paid, it is very compelling.

I figured Goldman was on hard drugs, he was always nervous and paranoid. There is a clip on Tom Synder interviewing him on the Tomorrow show in 1981 after his Elvis book came out. He insisted that the audience be cleared first. I always liked the anti drug stances in your Beatles and Beach Boys books. That and some of the Beach Boys documentaries helped me never go down that road.

Personal thanks go out to Steven Gaines for contributing (hope he will continue to do so!). Already it's a great prompter to re-read the book.

Steven,

Just wanted to say your book is fantastic - have you ever considered updating it to present day?

Zander

Zander--thanks!  But I think I should just leave the book as is, and leave it to somebody else to write the second half of the story.

It pains me that there are mistakes in Heroes and Villains, and if I had the chance I'd love to correct the errors. 

I would sell my mother to hear that tape.  ;D Speaking of the Australian tour, have you ever heard the infamous show where Carl passed out/fell, and was forced off the stage?

It's certainly not an error-filled book, and isn't perceived that way.  When you write on a subject that's this passionate and personal for a lot of people, you're usually going to come under attack from some quarter, and while Heroes & Villains stirred some strong response (and still does), the first two things you would usually hear- "error-filled" and "a work of fiction", in that order, have never been applied to it and couldn't be. 

In re-reading it, the only thing that strikes me is that in some cases new information has become available, especially in connection with the recording of SMiLE and so forth, that could be incorporated into a revised text. There are cases where I don't think "error" so much as "this is based on the information that was available then."

I'm sure I will spot some legitimate errors as I go, because just about every book of any scope contains them.  If you do a revised edition, it will contain errors as well.  My brother has a sports-related book coming out in a few weeks, and he sent the manuscript to me and another of our brothers, and we spotted a half dozen or more small errors each that the publisher wouldn't have caught. That guy didn't play in that game, etc. And each of us missed errors that someone else caught- and often about events we all witnessed recently.

I agree that a fully updated version would be a bad idea- the story at hand really ends with Dennis' death, and what follows would be a different book.  But I'd love to read a new afterward (afterword?) that would give us a postscript on some of the people that had a larger role in this story than in any other Beach Boys book- most especially, I'd love to read a really extended piece of journalism (or anything at all)  on the last twenty years of Shawn Love's life- I think there's a very real and tragic story there. She must have gotten to be almost exactly Dennis' age.  I've also been interested in how Gage has managed to muddle through.

Here's what doesn't come off good: why the hell were they hiding a tape recorder in the room?

So they could sell it of course.

I like the book (though I personally would prefer more emphasis on the music-I can't deny that it is one of the more entertaining things I've read) but since its release in the 80s research has  proven a few things in it are wrong.  To point out a few things (This is not a criticism-research builds on previous authors
1) Page 91 of the 1986 paperback states that the BBs launched a forty day tour across the midwest in the summer of 1962.  We now know that the BBs never even left the state of California till Jan 1963 and didn't do there first tour of the midwest till April 1963 .  Bizarrely-Keith Badman repeats this error on page 24 of his book and on page 32 of his book states that they did an east coast tour in Jan 1963, but then on page 35 describes "the group's first concert outside California"-talk about poor editing!  The Gaines book (paperback pages 91-93 is actually describing the Summmer 63 tour).  2) Page 109 of the paperback suggests that the group signed with William Morris in mid 63-they actually seem to have begun being represented by Marshall Berle in the fall of 1962 as described in Stebbins book-they got a gig in Sept playing at a party for Uncle Milties daughter  3) page 117 of paperback states that they played Ed Sullivan on Sept 17-it was actually Sept 27 1964   4) Page 118 suggests that first European tour was in October 1964, but it was in November   5) Page 121 suggests that the group did a second tour of Australia in 1964, but they did not .  In actuality-group in Europe till Nov 24, than a short US tour till end of Nov   6) Page 197 mixes up two tours-the April 1968 tour was not canceled after 4 performances, in actuality it was the May 1968 tour with Maharishi  7) Page 236 is not quite correct-Brian played the first full night of the Whiskey engagement and part of the second night. No evidence from any eyewitnesses that he was "stoned"   8) Page 242-Filmore closed on June 27 not 22  9) Page 255-group did not spend "eight months" in Holland- in fact they were only there for about two and a half months (June-Aug 15 1972) 

I was crazily confused on this point while reading the Badman book.

Jo Ann Marks diary shows that first BB shows outside California were probably at the end of January 1963 in Arizona, than the Midwest tour April-May (for which I have most of the ads that appeared in the papers in the various cities) and then a big tour July-Aug 1963 (again I have most of the ads and one review-which I believe is the earliest review of a BB concert- of their Aug 8 show). 

Steven - I'm just fascinated to know how you felt when you read Brian's pseudo-autobiography and realised that your book had been pillaged without credit.

It serves no purpose making long lists of what's wrong in Heroes and Villains.  I've already said that there are mistakes that are regrettable.  I'm not interested in participating in an orgy of "what's wrong with Heroes and Villains."  So, for a while, I'm going to say goodbye to all of you and wish you luck.

Gee, thanks, "error"-pointer-outers!  You get someon on the board who's interacted with the band who's interested in sharing and participating, someone who's never posted on any of these various communities, and you promptly discourage him from posting.  Why are some Beach Boys/Brian Wilson fans so anal retentive?  Considering that your sources of information may be no better than Steven's (and Badham's book has been said to have errors, too), why go point by point, page by page to pick his book apart for things like exact concert dates?  But maybe that's just me. 

Mr. Gaines, please come back some day if you ever get the time or the mood strikes.  You actually had contact with these people, and human insights to me are more valuable than dates and numbers.  I've enjoyed all of your posts here and found them enlightening.

I agree forget marie. For God's sake, if you want to put out a book with the perfect gigography go and write the book yourself. I think Steven's would still be a hell of lot better, errors or not. Steven did the best he could at the time when there was no internet or (let's face it) requirement for that information in his book.

Why the hell do some people care so much about one day of a concert tour being wrong etc?  :ahh

In any case, in the great words of the late Anthony Wilson "when it comes to print and choosing the fact or the myth, print the myth".

I think Steven's book is a great narrative biography, and that he's an excellent writer.  The book tends to get rapped by some fans, too, for being too sensationalistic, but he was just reporting the facts.  His book was the one that really got me into the Beach Boys.  I went from having one greatest hits collection to buying (almost) everything they released.  It also got me interested in "Smile," which I'd only read about in bit and pieces in articles.  Steven made their story very compelling, as well as making one sympathize with the people involved.  Sort of the exact opposite of a Goldman.

One thing: let's not villainize or belittle anyone here. Some people are interested in different aspects of the BB's/BW's career than others, and that there are those interested in getting the truth on those issues is great. That said, Mr. Gaines has been pretty clear that his book has some errors: therefore this thread certainly isn't the place to point them out. Hopefully Mr. Gaines returns to discuss the aspects of his memories of the band, writing the book, etc., and those trying to find and catalogue details succeed in that in a more appropriate place.

Steven,

since I've never read Heroes & Villains (it wasn't published in my country, I just gave it a quick look on a bookstore during a holiday overseas. I saw the movie, but I try to remember it just for laughs -that Planet of Apes facial hair!) but The love you make was, if not my first Beatle book, the first serious Beatle bio I read, I'd like to take this chance to make some comments/questions about it.

1. I think is a valuable book when it comes to the private lives and inside stuff of the business, especially the stories that Peter Brown brought to it, although it draws heavily from the Hunter Davies and Philip Norman books (you even repeated a mistake of Norman, writing that the original version of The Long and Winding Road, before Spector's involvement, was just Paul with an acoustic guitar)

2. As you wrote on this thread, your field of writing is not music, but I think you did a disservice to Ringo's reputation with the groundless claim that his drums were usually replaced by Paul's. I mean, even today some journalists repeat that non-fact.

3. As I said before, Brown's insight was one of the main assets of the book, though I think  his attitude was basically unethical to a group of people who trusted him (not that such things as ethics matters when it comes to this kind of tell-all books). My question is, why -bordering on hypocrisy- Brown talked at lenght about Brian Epstein's sex life, but didn't say anything about his own. Other sources claim that  not only Brown is gay, but he also had a relationship with Epstein. Can you confirm/deny this? Are you still in touch with Brown?

4. And the last. Why did you try to make the book look -on the introduction and Brown's publicity press- like it was officially sanctioned by The Beatles? George and Paul's disowned it and with reason: to name an example, I can't imagine Harrison endorsing a book which was going to include his affair with Maureen Starkey.

Anyway, I reread several parts of it recently, and I still think it's an entertaining, interesting, if very flawed look at one side of the Beatles' lives

Somehow I don't see that post bringing Mr. Gaines back, either...

Without going into nitpicking and details only a fan can notice,  I think my questions/observations about the book are quite common; I never had (neither antother Beatles fan on the Internet, afaik) the chance to try to bring those issues to one of the cowriters, it seemed a good opportunity. And besides, there's no so many things to ask to Steven Gaines as there is with AGD, Alan Boyd of Peter Carlin. I'm posting this instead of pm-ing to Luther in case anyone else disagree with my previous post (I assume that's what's happening)

I don't care one way or the other about your post. It's just a little funny that Mr. Gaines basically just said he wouldn't participate in this board if people wanted to spend time pointing out errors in his books, and your post goes right into problems you find with another of his books. Just funny to me. That's all.

Well, it's more than obvious that we don't agree. I'll just concede you one thing: when I wrote my first post I hadn't realized that Gaines had quit the thread. Bad timing on my part, I admit. It also seems to me than your last post showed less respect for me than my 1st post to Gaines, but we better leave it at that.

I have neither respect nor disrespect for your posts. I don't care. It's just a funny situation on a message board to me. That's all.

Well it's known around these parts that Luther is a d*ck.

You say the sweetest things. But nothing I said was dickish. I pointed out the humor in responding to a special guest's departure due to (understandable? certainly admitted) factual questions in his books by pointing out more. Really ... it's good stuff.

;)

I'll see your wink and raise you a drunken grope.

And we've chased away yet another honored guest.

And yet, despite the abuse hurled his way, Andrew Doe continues to honor us with his presence!

Mr. Gaines -- Your presence here is/has been greatly appreciated.  Ian has been a serious biographer of the groups' history (since 1961) for the last three or so years.  See AGD'S Bellagio site (http://www.btinternet.com/~bellagio/).   Not knowing him personally but...knowing him...I am POSITIVE he wasn't trying to 'correct you', per se.  He was just doing what he's done for a long time now. 

Please don't think it was an attack on you or the book.  Or the info in the book. 

Hope to see you back here in a couple days...

Ah, yes. The geeky tendency of this board to obsess over the tiniest minutae has once again served its intended purpose.  I mean, some people mean well, but before pointing out the flaws in someone's work, why not read earlier post where the person specifically acknowledges said flaws and tries to move past them? I can just see if Brian came on here:

Hey everyone. I thought I'd come by and answer some questions. Is that cool with everyone? Groovy. So let's get started!

Brian, when did you record the vocals for Sloop John B.?
Uh, I don't know. Sometime in early 1966, I guess.
Actually, it was 1965. 
Oh. Okay.

Brian, what year was your gorgeous falsetto replaced by a croaky shadow of its former glory?
Um...  1976?
No, we've discussed this at length and believe it was 1975.

Brian, is your marriage to Melinda a sham?
No, I love Melinda, and she loves me.
Wrong again, Brian.

Brian, is it true that Mike Love is an asshole?
Sometimes. Yes, yes he is.
No, Brian. He's not. He's misunderstood, and you're overrated. Go back to the blueboard.

Brian, when was... Brian? Brian? Where'd Brian go?

Haha! . . . This is a very funny and revealing post.

But as was said earlier, you have to take all views in context.

There's minutiae on the one hand . . . and the bigger picture on the other. And they both do matter. In a perfect world, the meeting of the two in the middle brings major enlightenment to the less informed.

The question, from my perspective is . . . Does lack of knowledge and accuracy in the former lead to flawed perspectives in the latter? I would say yes and no, depending on the info and circumstances (and the writer). The devil can lie in both the details and the larger social context. It all depends on the writer, his/her sources, and his/her abilities to communicate in writing.

Readers (myself included) will make their first-look, knee-jerk observations . . . regardless. But if we can then go beyond that . . . and further dissect the material, we can often come away with something more than we had before.

But yes . . . absolutely . . . mistakes and factual errors (large and small) are a pox on any writer and/or historian. It happens to all of us, regardless of subject matter.

M.

I too feel bad he is gone, it was so unbelievable that he was even here if only because I never heard him discuss the book with fans. I must stress I don't think Ian meant to offend at all, I certainly think he found value in the book from what he posted.  Perhaps it would have been better to post the info in the Heroes and Villians review thread, but Mr. Gaines wrote a controversial piece that some fans will take issue with. I myself wrote a review of the book which was critical about the music info, but have written a new one in lieu of his open frustration with the errors. I understand and respect his decision to go, and I think he certainly made us all have a new respect for him and a work that has proven to have a lot of insight. I think we all welcome him back if he chooses to post again.

Why in the hell would you bring that up here? This isn't a Beatles board, and serves no purpose other than to further tick the guy off. Nice.


I would too. At the time he was the only one with the balls to  actually paint a true picture of the band, and didn't shy away where others did.Actually, you could probably take the "at the time" part. I mean, I love Peter Carlin's book, but it seemed like he was trying to be too nice in parts.

I second that, and would add that I don't think anyone sees the book as having error-issues, unless maybe the author himself, to his credit. Andrew had even spoken to its basic accuracy recently, and it's withstood twenty-two years of additional research extremely well, especially for a book of that scope.

This is especially frustrating for me, because this book is a GREAT topic for this place, and (surprisingly) one of the few things that hasn't (to my knowledge) already been beaten to death by four generations of posters.

TO give you an idea of what was in play here, think of this: in the Fall of 1961 Murry and Audree went to Mexico for the weekend with an English business associate of A.B.L.E. Machinery, and returned to find that the Beach Boys had been born out of the meal money they left. The English guy apparently came into the house with them and witnessed that moment and heard them play "Surfin' ".  Steven Gaines talked to the English guy.

There also won't be any more fresh interviews with Gary Usher, Roger Christian, Mae or Irving Rovell, Audree, any of Murry's siblings, Fred Vail (?), Nik Venet...Dave Marks' parents...Shawn Love, Karen Lamm, (are any on that list living?).

This guy talked to an absolutely stunning list of people and his research can never be duplicated.  He had even expressed an openness to possibly posting selected audio excerpts for us.

He was not here shilling a new edition. He was just fielding questions from us.  I was working up to asking some slightly tougher or more subjective ones, but in light of recent developments I am considering changing that approach and openly kissing his ass.

In all seriousness, and I hope you're reading this, I think we'd be willing to have the discussion of Heroes & Villains on whatever basis you're comfortable with- though now you know you're among obsessives. And if you don't feel inclined to leap back into the ring with us, I'd like to propose that you consider being available to Endless Summer Quarterly or some other publication like that, because there is extremely high interest in your work.

Well said.

It was a rare and fascinating window of opportunity that we all had (and hopefully may
have again someday) to hear unique anecdotes and insights, and clearly the requisite
tactfulness was not shown.

I was looking forward to hearing his response to having his work plagiarized, and his
recollections (maybe even recordings) of irreplaceable interview subjects. I'm sure no harm was meant by Ian (his research is commendable and as
he said, his date corrections were not meant as criticism), but the effect was predictable
and understandable.

Let's all learn from this and be more courteous and less obsessively detail-oriented and
nitpicky if similar situations should arise again!

Shane! Come back!

We could have done the same thing to Peter Carlin with errors and we didn't do it to him. Which was good because it was very interesting when he was here too. Again Ian wasn't trying to upset anyone, but it's just unfortunate.

Unless I have missed something I'm pretty sure Fred Vail is still alive.

umm.. who's Shane?

See George Stevens' classic SHANE (1953) starring Alan Ladd. "mutedtrumpeterswan" is feeling the little boy's heartbreak at the end of that film.

(http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w74/mikenewphoto/51C77E643VL__SL500_AA240_.jpg)  I Feel Very Old

Oh thanks for that. I thought mutedtrumpeterswan was calling Steven "Shane"...

Certainly hope you're right.  I was most unsure of that one, hence the question mark.

I swear I saw Vail in Billy Hinsche's doc about Dennis.

Fred was certainly very much alive a few weeks ago. That or they've got email in heaven.  ;D

he's very alive.  i see him around town all the time.

Dave Marks' mom is still with us too.

I'm a bit flabbergasted that Steven is, in the Eagles' words, 'Already Gone'. That is sad. And it wasn't necessary. I for one, if I'd have a list of potential errors in my head, would've kept it to a PM at best. If I'd have thought that those errors were important in the first place, that is.
Writing is a most difficult process and even with others who do sort of a post-editing job, things can go unnoticed.
For me, the book is so valuable because at the time (1986?) it was the very first description how Denny spent his last days. Up to that point, I only knew that he drowned at the spot where supposedly keepsakes and stuff from the 'Harmony' had sunk.

Can I ask mr. Gaines politely to reconsider? Yes, I can.

When did Shawn Love and Karen Lamm die?

Karen Lamm - July 2001
Shawn Love - September 2003

COMMENT:  Fred Vail is still active at Treasure Island Studios.  You can read his Bio by going to the below sight, click on "about us" and then "Fred Vail."   I spoke with him only a few months ago.  Great guy!    ~swd

Treasure Island Studios >>> [ http://www.treasureislenashville.com/ ]

This is what happens when people get so nit picky about the history.  ::)

Just for the record, I have over 100 tapes in a bank vault, tapes never heard before by anyone but me, tapes with Brian, particularly the one in Landy's office when he talked about Murry; the heroin tape from Australia; interviews with Marilyn, Diane and their mom and dad; over 12 hours of tapes of Karen Lamm reading her diaries aloud to me; several hours of Landy's bull; taped interviews with Lorne Michaels; interviews with members of the Love family; photographs and memorabilia nobody had ever seen before; a copy of the ms of the book Rocky and Stan were writing about the group; and some mind blowing on-tape stories from David Anderle, Van Dyke Parks, Gary Usher, Nik Venet and on and on and on.  I have five cartons of articles about the group collected from around the world. 
I also have the depositions I gave in three Beach Boy trials, including one in which I presented a taped  interview with Chuck Kaye that got the publishing money from Sea of Tunes back in Brian's pocket.  Also my extensive depositions about how and why my book was plagiarized.
So if anybody tells you that I used everything I had in the book--no matter what you think of my best selling book--they're just bitter and they don't know what they're talking about.

Hi, Steven, good to see you back. I hope you stick around. May I ask, have you heard Brian's That Lucky Old Sun album? I wonder your opinions, if so.

Glad to see you're back, too. Personally, I loved your book, and loved how no punches were pulled.

I too wonder your opinion on TLOS, and on Brian these days in general. Also, off topic, but what albums (by any artist) are your favorites out of your collection?

Thanks for giving us another chance to be a little more polite and diplomatic, Mr. Gaines.

That sounds like a lot of really fascinating stuff that you have in your archives, particularly the
anecdotes from David Anderle, Van Dyke et al., and the lengthy discussion with Brian about Murry.

I'm sure you have moved on, but your presence and (previous, possibly renewed) interest in
participating here indicates a renewed interest in the subject. Have you ever considered
pursuing publisher interest in an expanded, updated edition, making use of additional archival
material? Could be a definitive account (not that the previous edition was lacking in any way).

Unlike in the film, Shane is back! :3d

Hello Steven,

Good to see you back here. I'm convinced that many fans overhere would like to see you show up here from time to time. I would!

You have been in the unique position to be able to get very close to the group, people surrounding them, and lot's of information the casual fans never know or maybe only vaguely heard stories about. Of course your choice to not use all of them has it's (good) reasons, otherwise we would've read about it back in the 80-ies. But if you think it's relevant to a discussion on this board or can give an answer to questions, I'd be delighted if you'd like to respond once in a while. Of course only if you want to, have the time for it, and if you think certain information can be made public at all (I assume you had good reasons to not use everything for the book at the time).


Are you still in the writing-business these days btw?

Hi Steven -

let me join the board members above - great to see you back! I am quite stunned about your list of recorded info on Brian and the Boys. Perhaps my initial thought is that of others here: on the one hand I'd love to know the contents; but on the other hand maybe there's stuff in there that might be hurtful to people still living (hurtful not of your free will of course, but because it might bring back sad memories).

I hope you'll drop by every now and then.

Welcome back, Mr. Gaines!

Hey, I've popped up again.  It's amazing how Heroes and Villains keeps on selling (and pissing people off.)
All these years later I'm still gobsmacked about how much Brian's "autobiography" ripped off my book.  At the time a reporter from Billboard kept on calling me asking me if I wasn't angry, but the truth was I had a lot of other stuff to think about, a new book in the works, and I didn't want to start a lawsuit.  It was only years later when I was giving deposition at a libel lawsuit that I read the passages in Brian's book and Heroes and Villains side by side that I realized they were identical.  I wonder what happened to the guy who wrote that book?

I gather for a while, Todd Gold was Brian's publicist. Not heard of him for years.

Small tale about the pseudobiography and your book (and the Leaf tome) - in a review I wrote for Beach Boys Stomp (venerable UK fanzine), I pointed out that huge chunks of the two books were lifted piecemeal and rightly called it plagiarism. Some short time later I got a communication from Brains & Genius demanding - not requesting, demanding - that I print a retraction and apologise or else. My response was to photocopy the relevant parts of 'Brian's' book, Leaf's and yours, highlight the similarities and mail it to B&G with a note saying, in essence, see you in court any time, anywhere. Never heard another word.

Later, in Billboard, Gold attempted to excuse his disgraceful act by stating that, as the majority of Brian's responses to his questions were terse and/or monosyllabic, he had to flesh out said answers, and that this was standard practise.

He worked for People magazine for years. Had to deal with some sexual harassment claims.

http://gawker.com/117995/elizabeth-leonard-replaces-todd-gold-at-people

Hi Mr. Gaines,

I read your book recently and the monetary transactions in the Beach Boy world reminded me of how long lasting the effect of greed can be.  Also the lack of trust in the right people who really had their best interests at heart. 

Mr. Gaines,
      If I haven't already, I'd like to thank you for your great book. I first read it when it came out and I was 12, I think, and it was the only easily available BB book that I could find. I must have read it fifty times since then and I think it's one of the best representations (along with Catch a Wave and The Nearest Faraway Place) of the BB and their crazy world.

I for one would love to read a sequel . All the crazyness that has gone down since 1985 man it would be good to hear the truth about it. I think Mr. Gaines is the only one who wouldn't hold back on anyone, while at the same time he would be fair.

What is the "heroin tape"? It's been a while since I read the book.  Didn't it have something to do with David Frost?

I have another question about Brian's autobiography, for anybody who might be able to answer it. Considering all the legal stuff that resulted from the book, would it ever have a chance of going back in print? Is it legally blocked from being republished?

Yes that is the David Frost meeting. The "Brian" book never had  a US reprinting. I think it did in England. It may get reissued there but not here. I hope it never does really because so much bad info is in there. I mean I can't use it at all really for research.

Most of the BB/Brian information on Wikipedia cites the book as a source.

Well that's the problem. The Todd Gold stuff is plan and simple garbage.

I finally got around to reading Heroes and Villains this past summer...I love all those little juicy details...

I wish I knew where the transcripts were to the tapes, I'd publish them here for everyone to have a look at.  I just started using a computer then  (I wrote the Beatles book on a Selectric) and the tapes were probably transcribed on those big floppy disks.  I don't even know if there's a computer around old enough to play them.  The tapes themselves are in a bank vault.

Thanks for all the good words about the book.

Hey everybody, let's all go hunt down those transcripts!  ;D  ;)

Steven, I have a question for you. A page or two back in this topic, you mentioned that you have several hours of Landy on tape. I was wondering, were you ever given access to the "therapy songwriting sessions" with Brian and Landy from the early 1980's?

I got this in the mail today, it's a GPS tour of Beach Boy locations in Los Angeles based on places in Heroes and Villains.

http://topey.com/796446-GPS-show-locations-where-Beach-Boys-make-history.html

No, when I was involved I dont think Landy was blatent enough to be writing songs with him yet.  Landy gave me all that access because he was convinced that I would write an article about him and he'd be on the cover of Rolling Stone.  It was only after "Brian Wilson is Trying to Catch Another Wave" (New West magazine, 1976) was published that Landy let go of all pretense and became Brian's writing partner.  Landy was such a charlatan as a doctor.  I have a copy of a book of hip slang he published before he became Brian's shrink.  He was a used car salesman.

Steven, you might or might not be aware that Landy also apparently claimed in print one time to have been the co-producer of Barry McGuire's "Eve Of Destruction". Phil Sloan, the author of the song, wrote a vehement letter to one of the Hollywood trades (circa 1990-'92?) refuting this and at the same time expressing love and support for Brian Wilson.

Also- in the years just after your book was published, it got to be a steadily bigger issue that Pet Sounds was not available on CD. In those pre-Internet days of limited information, I asked around wherever I could and was given two rumors as to the hold-ups: (1) lawyers representing Dennis' estate and (2) Landy negotiating for a big title- specifically, "executive producer" of Pet Sounds, which was of course done nine years before he met Brian. (Not vouching for that, but it was floating around in 1988-'89).

When you were first here in 2008 I re-read H & V as a ramp-up to grilling you here as much as you were open to it.  A year's gone by, but I will get my thoughts together on the book when I can in the next day or so and publish a mini-review in this thread.  Time has been very good to it.

I would also like to see an updated edition, but I'd really rather see an expanded edition- at least another hundred pages on the era already covered.  It sounds like you've got the material; it would just be a matter of the market, and the book's reputation ought to be a huge plus there.  How much longer was the first draft- do you recall?

Very good summation of Landy. I actually tracked down the New West article and it really is a great piece. I think it was the first no holds barred look at the Beach Boys. I feel it's kind of the root of the book but has it's own unique 1976 perspective. Meaning that at the time the Beach Boys still had a chance to pull things together. Why they didn't can really be traced back to what you wrote there.

Steven, this touches on something that I've always been unclear about. Did Landy suggest topics or actually write some of the lyrics with Brian for the "Love You" and "Adult/Child" albums?  Or did he not "co-write" anything until his second time around with Brian?  Thanks.

I just was going through some stuff in the closet and I found a composition notebook with a few notes in it from a phone call I had with Milt Love.  This is what the notes say:

Mt. Vernon and Fairway.
40 by 20 foot living room.  Red rugs, white couchs, chairs with ottomans.  designed by Glee, made by Windsor Hills upholsterers.

At one of the Christmas parties it was reported to Milt that one of the Wilsons put out his cigarette on the run.

After Dennis' funeral Mike celebrated with a bottle of champagne.

Forced Mike Love to babysit, when he left the casement windows open and Glee found out she put all his belongings out on the porch.

Next page is titled "Stan Love" from an interview with him:

Dennis had a choice of going into the army or McLaren Juvenile Hall.  Den pilferred from the neighbors.  This got Murry upset.  Den was ruining the rep of the Wilsons in the neighborhood.

Stephen Love was quiet, into coin collecting and stamps, student council, he was a good kid.

Stan says he was a "deliquent trouble maker, went to college on athletic scholarships.  Within the Love family Stan wasa considered a bad apple."

The Love children weren't allowed to stay at the Wilsons.

I recall reading something slightly different, i.e. that Mike showed up with a couple of bottles of vintage champagne before the memorial service as he reckoned DW would have appreciated it.

Mike celebrated Dennis's death?!?!  As in a celebration of Dennis's life or as in 'I'm glad he's dead'?

I've heard two versions of the story of Michael's reaction to Dennis' death - the version Andrew recounted in his post above, and the other, which basically was Michael cracking open champagne and proudly declaring "well, that's one less Wilson I have to deal with."

But, to be fair, by 1983, either one of them would most likely have celebrated the other's death considering how much they couldn't stand each other.

"We were all so much a part of each other that I'm sure we'll miss him every single day for the rest of our lives. There's no way we'll not miss him."

Mike Love, January 1984.

I remember reading it the same way you do. Maybe to Milt it seemed in bad taste and that was just how he took it.

My information is that Mike and his father (who is still alive, I believe - mid-90s) haven't spoken for something like 20-odd years.

Could that be anymore perfect for the BBs world we live in?

This from New York magazine online:

You don’t think of Beach Boys co-founder and lead singer Mike Love as a New Yorker. But the prototypical California boy and his wife, Jacquelyne, did buy an apartment on East 93rd Street in 2004. “They wanted to renovate something,” says broker Gary Brynes of the Corcoran Group, who’s now selling the space for the Loves. Priced at $2.35 million, it’s a top-of-the-line rehab: Brynes (who’s handling the listing with Marcia Salonger) says the couple handpicked the finishes and oversaw all the details of the extensive reworking, which combined two units. The kitchen has a built-in glass table cantilevered from a counter, and in two of the bathrooms, the floors have rocks embedded in tile, lending it a pebbly beach feel. Endless summer indeed.

Read more: New York City Real Estate - The Beach Boys’ Mike Love Is Selling His Upper East Side Apartment -- New York Magazine http://nymag.com/realestate/movers/62900/#ixzz0byKjOUWx

Thanks for the info about Mike.

Bahahahahaha!

Hi Steven, not sure if your still checking this thread but i just finished reading 'Heroes & Villians' and i just wanna say how much i enjoyed it.

i knew going in that this book focuses more on the 'dirty laundry' aspect of the band but thats exactly what i wanted to read about.

I found myself thinking several times during this book "what the hell are these guys thinking?". You realise just how self destructive they were.

Great job!

 :smokin

Hi all,

I started reading Heroes & Villains last week.  I just read about Dennis's death.  I will read chapters 2 and 3 when I have a chance.  I know that this book will cover a lot of things that would be considered gossip, dirty laundry or self distructive.  I do think that the drugs and alcohol were either ways of self meidcating or self abuse.  I was only in high school when I ifrst read about Brain doing drugs.  I was in high school when Dennis died.  I have read about Mike and the champagne also.  The Landy part should be interesting and scary.