The Smiley Smile Message Board

Great Albums, songs, etc...

lets hear it

xoxo
suga

Hate to be cliche, but Fear of A Black Planet.

Cool cool

De La Soul: Three Feet Hight and Rising

Non Prophets : Hope

Streets : Original Pirate Matieral, A Grand Dont  Come For Free

Dr. Dre : The Chronic

Blackalicouis: Blazzing Arrows

Missy Elliot: Supa Dupa Fly  So Addictive

MIA: Arular, Piracy Funds Terrorisim

Dr. Octogon: Dr. Octogynocologist

  oh yeah and I dont care what anyone says I am partail to Ice Ice Baby

 :P

The two greatest, I think, are the aforementioned 3 feet high... and Beastie Boys' Paul's Boutiqe. Late 80s Public Enemy is up there.

Gotta love the Beastie Boys and Public Enemy

Krs One

Boogie Down Production

I learned to put words together from watching The Electric Company:
C.... Rap.... Crap!

Sex Style by Kool Keith is my favorite.  Lately I keep listening to the first Wu-Tang.

Why hasn't anyone mentioned Slick Rick?  "Treat Her Like a Prostitute?"?  "Teenage Love"?  Come on.

hey bedtime  story is the shiz as well

but treat like em like a prostitute is awesome, Mona Lisa

xooxo

Definitely.  Also, "The Ruler's Back."

Sorry to bump this, but I have to add my list.

Wu-Tang Clan-36 Chambers
Raekwon-Only Built 4 Cuban Linx
Ghostface Killah-Supreme Clientelle
Public Enemy-It Takes A Nation of Millions to Hold Us Back
GZA-Liquid Swords
Ice Cube-Death Certificate
Main Source-Breaking Atoms
Nas-Illmatic

4 of those are Wu-tang Clan related, but I think they are all essential.

Jurassic 5 - Quality Control!!!!

This guy has the right idea...


Yes, these albums are hella dope!

Have any of you heard AWOL one's stuff, or his collaborations with Daddy Kev?  Also, anything he does wit Kool Keith floats my boat.

But the best has got to be Dr. Dre.  I CANNOT believe that hardly any of you have mentioned Dre yet: Strait Outta Compton, The Chronic, Doggystyle, Slim Shady LP, 2001...  Pretty much the illest merda ever!  As Beckner would tell you; Dre was the Brian Wilson of the Nineties.

Yeah, Dr. Dre's stuff has always been my favorite.  "2001" was surprisingly good, if you can get by all the hateful talk about women.  I used to listen to rap all the time, and the violence doesn't bother me that much but I still can't find a good reason to call every woman a b*tch. 

I haven't heard that AWOL stuff, but I'll definitley check it out.
I'm not a big fan of Dre. I enjoy the Chronic, but that's about it. I'm more of a fan of the East Coast, grittier style of production.

Are you from the East Coast Drew?

I live in Oakland, and the "hyphy movement" is really blowing up out here-- E-40, Keak the Sneak and the Federation are all poised to break through nationally.  Their stuff is interesting from a production standpoint, but grates on me after awhile.  I much prefer the laid-back sounds of the g-funk.

I'd say the best place to start with AWOL is his collaboration with Daddy Kev titled Killafornia.  His rhyming style isn't for everybody, but I think he's great.


(http://nah.0110101010.com/img/killafornia.jpg)

I'm about as far from east coast as you can get, Western Canada!
I'm going to check that album out.
The new Ghostface album comes out on the 28th and that should be good. 

What about the most well known whiteboy rapper besides Vanilla Ice --- Beck?  "Loser" is an obvious choice, but others rock as well: "Beercan", "Hollywood Freaks", "High 5 (Rock The Catskills)", "Que Onda Guero", "Novacane", "Soul Suckin' Jerk", "Where It's At", etc.

Ever hear of a guy called EMINEM, nucca?

The Moderator has struck again.

  Rap or hip-hop is not music.

I never bought that.  I positively do not like Bruce Springsteen, and some of his music just annoys the hell out of me, but I would never say he's not music.  Similarly, as much as I can't stand N*sync and some of those types of bands, I still have to give them the lcd that they are at least making music.  I would call rap music, although most of the time I don't enjoy listening to it. 

Hmm, you got me there.  I guess I meant personally...to me, Eminem doesn't make a blip on my radar...he's like a parody of a non-entity.

andtheselettersdontmakewords.

Ill Al Skratch-Where My Homiez?

L'Trimm - "The Cars That Go Boom"!

Tell us more about Eminem, Ian.

Right, those melodies and beats certinley aren't musical!
I guess what the rappers do is just talking as well.

Eh, I'll bite.  Technically, rap is not music.  Now I am saying this in comparison to, say, The Beach Boys - they absolutely need music to function.  Hear me out here.  All a rapper needs, in essence, is a. something to say that rhymes and b. a cool beat underneath.  That's about the simplest way to put it.  Webster's Dictionary goes a bit further, defining rap as "a rhythmic chanting often in unison of usually rhymed couplets to a musical accompaniment".  In all truth, though, the rhythm is definitely more important than whatever the music or hook or lick or etc. is.  Don't think I am saying that rap is a genre that doesn't deserve attention because of its unreliance on specific music composition.  I hope that made a bit of sense.  ??? :)

It makes sense, and I would agree if it were just a beat and someone spitting rhymes, but it's not quite that simple. I think the musical accompaniment is just as important as the beat. For example, RZA, from the Wu-tang Clan, makes use of strings and and synths for hooks and atmosphere and it's really the atmosphere that is created that makes Wu-tang so appealing.
I agree that the individual rapper might not be making music, but the combination of the backing track and the rapper is certinely music.
It's nice to hear a different opinon on this all though! I'm used to only talking to huge rap fans!

Right.  I was laying out the bare essentials: rhyme and beat.  Like what you said, it is what the artist adds to it, music or a hook or whatever, that makes it stand out.  You have to admit, though, with the focus of most all of rap music being on the rapper and his viewpoint or personality, it can diminish the perception of musicality.  BTW, I don't mean that in a negative way.

How can you tell I'm not a huge rap fan?  "Yo, my name is Wermz and I'm a young MC/I'm the kind of rapper other rappers wanna be!"  Hoowah!

Haha, I shouldn't have made the assumption!  I mostly talk to people who people who would never stand for someone saying that rap isn't music is what I should have said. Sorry about that.
I totally agree that the personality of a rapper is a huge factor and could sometimes overshadow the music. I try to avoid stuff like that.

I also must throw in "Paid In Full" by Eric B nd Rakim as well as "The Cactus Album" and "Derelicts Of Dialect" by 3rd Bass.  For something a bit more modern I'll also throw in "Blackstar" by Mos Def and Talib Kweli. 

Rap can most definately be musical and creative.  Unfortunately, most all of what is popular today and spoon-fed to us is pure un-imaginative garbage.

Rakim is amazing, a total classic, but not outdated.
Slick Rick is often overlooked, but is definitely one of the best story tellers in rap.

Dangermouse - The Mouse and the Mask

That's the most ignorant thing I've ever heard.  rap is not music because all they need is something to say that rhymes, and b. a cool beat underneath.  Everybody on this board worships "Our Prayer" even though it has no words, and no instruments, just a melody.  that's music, then, eh? 

Is that the album with MF Doom, or am I thinking of something totally different?

The greatest and most under-rated rap album of all time IMO (which doesn't count for much on this subject as I've no real knowledge of rap since the late 1980s) is LL Cool J's 1987 album 'Bigger and Deffer'.  What I can say is that this is a truly great record, much better IMO than the much more fashionable Public Enemy's albums of the time. 

I am saying that rap does not rely solely on an arrangement of musical notes sung and played in harmony; "Our Prayer" without arranged musical notes would be horrible to listen to.  Maybe someone can explain it to me in terms I can understand...what is rap without the rapper?  What is rap without the beat, whether prominent or implied in the rhythm of the rhyme?  I am not trying to discount rap. :)

I think sometimes when people say that rap isn't music, it's because it's based more on rhytm and loops and not so much harmonic progression, like your regular music. But following that logic you should also discard stuff like like "Sex Machine" or "Tomorrow Never Knows" and some of the stuff that jazzers like Miles Davis has done. In a way you could say that rap is actually more harmonically advanced than normal music, because harmonically it's more open that way. But of course it's a pity that a lot of rappers cant get beyond the same boring chestthumping and misogony that's prevalent in rap.

Søren

Is it not that the lack of melody in the actual rap, it's reliance on pace and rhythm alone, makes for a rather limited emotional vocabulary in musical terms?  I think there's been good rap records but I think the genre's effect over all in music has been for the worse.

You're talking about occasional experiments (and I'm not entirely sure how pertinent they are to the subject) here not an entire genre of music that has arguably become the prevalent popular musical form.  Thats what people (who may be wrong) tell me is the case in America.  At the very least, rap is a huge part of today's music scene.

What is music without the beat?  You're gonna have to do a better job of explaining yourself, because it's kind of nonsensical to me.  And I don't even know how to spell nonsensical.  Anyways, take Dr. Dre off of "Let Me Ride" and what do you have left?  Music.  Take the Beach Boys off of Fun Fun Fun, and what do you have left? Music.  Take the music off of either song and you have vocals, two totally diferent styles of acapalella arrangements, but they're both still music.  At WORST with simplistic melodies you can call rap poetry, but poetry has been considered a high artform forever.

In my opinion you can easily argue your opinion about rap by just focusing on the shallowness of the lyrics (usually) or the repetitive, 4 bar structure of the arrangement, or the simplicity of the melodies, or whatever you want to attack, but saying that it isn't music is just the easy way out and doesn't hold up to scrutiny, imho again.

The best way to put it is "Rap is Crap" as Mr. Wilson is so fond of saying.  Nobody can really argue with that.  "Yeah, Rap Sucks.  I don't like it, sounds like a bunch of idiots saying nonsense I can't understand".  There's no argument against that.  If you try to attack it as not being music, though, people can shoot holes all through your opinion because you're technically wrong and it can be demonstrated you're wrong. 

I think we both agree rap sucks, on a whole, though, lol. 

i love coming to the smiley shop to listen in on the whitest, most ill-informed discussion of rap music in the land.  sounds like my parrents talking about hip-hop with dr. phil. obvioulsy, not everybody is a fan of hip hop and thats fine. but there are some pretty sad moments recorded in these posts whenever this topic is brought up. lets talk about jazz, yeah! did you all see that great ken burns documentary on jazz? he really captured it all. yeah!

The Humpty Dance is all I need.  I have no use for much of the other stuff, aside from some Beastie Boy material.

Søren: I can see your comparison, but note: "Tomorrow Never Knows" would still be a song without the (killer) beat, or even the loops.  There is a melody; there are chord changes.  But, it wouldn't be the same.  You might have to explain furthur how rap is harmonically advanced because it is "harmonically more open" than music in general.  I can see how it doesn't rely on a concrete musical arrangement, but I could point to artists like Cornelius and say the same thing.  He doesn't rap, but still utilizes a lot of the adventurous production techniques prevalent in rap music and makes some wonderful, melodic MUSIC!  Check out "Fantasma" or "Point" to see what I mean.

---

Ron: Do you agree with me that dubbing rap 'rhymthic poetry' (tell me if I am wrong in that paraphrase) would imply that specific melody, song forms, chord changes, basic rules of music are NOT the main emphasis?  And When did I say that poetry was not a high art form?!?  Drop the needle, DJ!  "Methuselah ate/Cha!/what he found on his plate/Huh!/And never, as people do now/Break it down/Did he note the amount/Crunk!/Of the calorie count/Yo!/He ate it because it was chow/Fool!"  Can you smell the braggadocio cooking with the collard greens?  And when did I say that I agreed with you about rap?  I even said I wasn't "discount[ing] rap". :)

---

andrew k: I may be ill-informed, though the only thing ill about me is my skills, but...when did I say I was white?   :)

Well, James Brown made a lot of songs based on the same principles, so for him it certainly wasn't an occasional experiment and even if they were experiments, I don't think anybody would deny that it was still great music. I think "Sex Maxhine" is pretty relevant, if you compare it to for instance Public Enemy's "Fight The Power" there's  the same call and response and the way he uses the guitar sounds very much like the way rappers would later use loops.


I just think that exactly because rap isn't based on very evolved harmonic schemes, it can give it a more open harmonic feel, exactly like "Sex Machine", but it's a little a question of whether you think the glass is half full or half empty and how they do it of couse. Miles Davis also did something similar on "So What" and other stuff,  that's also based on very few chords. I think when you arent constrained by a very developed harmonic scheme, you can suggest more harmonic twists than might otherwise be possible.


Sorry, if we aren't black enough for you.

Søren

"I'm sorry Foxxy, I don't speak blackanese!"

When did I say that you said that poetry wasn't a high art form? 


When did I say that you said that you agreed with me about rap? 

.. and I wouldn't call rap rhythmic poetry.  I'd call it music. 

Sorry, my bad.  You said, "At WORST with simplistic melodies you can call rap poetry, but poetry has been considered a high artform forever."  I misconstrued what you said.  I would say I would call rap poetry when it's at it's BEST.  At it's worst, which often is the case, rap can careen from atonal sprays of vitriol to shameless exhibitions of self-importance.  Though this is ubiquitous in rock and roll, for example, "Positively 4th Street", at least it has smart chord changes and a singable melody throughout.  Now, if want to get started on "Subterranean Homesick Blues"... :)


When you said, "I think we both agree rap sucks, on a whole, though, lol."  I don't agree with that!  Period.  Though, looking at the 'lol', maybe I just wasn't 'hip' to your 'jive'. :)


"You're right from your side/I'm right from mine."  You are saying that rhyming lyrics chanted to a musical accompaniment is a legitimate form of music.  I am saying that to be an MC doesn't require someone to be musically talented (ie. Brian Wilson, etc.)

Any other contentious points on this thread?  An apt old saying goes, "The crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways shall be made smooth"...

Oh, so now TALENT has something to do with music? Ha!

Okay, maybe I should rephrase that... :)  Maybe if you could expound, with your claws retracted.   ^-^

I think you're misunderstanding me, probably because I didn't express myself very well.  I'm talking about the overall pervasiveness of rap as a form in popular music and culture and its effect, not just individual songs or even individual artists in the past.

Well, if you read my first post on this thread, I wasn't really addressing the pervasiveness of rap, more if rap could be considered music or not.  But sure it would be a problem if nothing but rap was played, just as it would be if radios played nothing but country music. I'm just saying that rap isn't necessarily particularly musically limited, just because it's based on one/two chords and a rhythm.

Søren

Well, I do think it is limited.  Sure there's been great records but a broad pallet of expression has never been the genre's particular forte.

i didnt say anybody was white. i desribed the discussion as being 'white'.  i stand by it, in the comical sense of the word.   the beach boys are probbaly the whitest form of pop music on the planet - romatic blond hair middle class suburband surfer boys and pom poms - regardless of blondie and ricky's temporary soulifying.  go figure that hilariously morinic and ignorant statements about a largely black art form are made here. 

Question: Would that argument hold weight if it were a black person discussing how rap has more genuine music than anything by The (largely white) Beach Boys, or would you consider that to be "hilariously morinic [sic]"?  In the words of Jack Black, and I apply this to myself, as well: "You Can't Win."

I liked that Wipe Out song by those fat guys back in the 80's.

I don't care for ice pick or Dr Drelittle or eneemaem or old dirty 50 cents.

How come those guys always shoot each other and move their hands that way?

Beats me!

It's official: you're caucasian! :)  Too funny.

Have you seen the video for Wipeout?
Classic!

Haven't I heard somewhere that originally there was meant to be a collaboration between the group and Run DMC only, for some reason, that was vetoed by the man we love to Love?  If so, that was a big mistake.  Sure was Aerosmith's gain!  Walk This Way is one of the greatest rap racords ever!  And perhaps more to the point, one of the biggest rock 'n' roll rehabilitations.  Of course, I don't think Run DMC could have restored The Beach Boys latter day artistic and commercial credibility single handed.

I have a rap song, but I don't ya'll could handle it, know what I'm sayin?

Golly no.  I DON'T know what you are saying.

I listen to rap, because my kids listen to rap. Some songs are actually quite good.  I love the old school stuff; Gangstas paradise, still an old run DMC fan, Ludacris, Eminem.  It's a whole different world than rock. 

Gangsta's Paradise is considered a "classic" now? 

Oh man.  Either I'm getting old or rap is so low quality it's here today, gone today. 

I'm thinking the former.  :afro  Muh'fugga.  :p

it's old school......word up from the hood, dawg.
Carly  8) :hat

If we're going to talk rap and hiphop it might just as well be in a topic devoted to the subject. This is where the recent discussion began:

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,22827.msg543222.html#msg543222

I suppose in a way rap is like jazz----either the bug bites you or it doesn't. It hasn't bitten me in either case but there are individual jazz pieces that I like and the same holds for rap. Which is something, I suppose...     

I'd forgotten all about this brilliant track by KRS-One:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ky8WPo2RHl8 

99 % of rap is crap but I do like " Funky Cold Medina"

I only found this out the other day...but did you know that rap as a term is an acronym?

Stands for rhythm and poetry.


Now you know.

Was that true as the style began, or someone's clever retrofitting? Considering rap had already meant informal talk, not to mention the style's party roots (emcees were just that, emcees of parties, I have to wonder. But I'm open to the possibility. Curious of the source.

Mr. T's Commandments:
http://www.amazon.com/Mr-Ts-Commandments-Mr-T/dp/B000U6IWG8 (http://www.amazon.com/Mr-Ts-Commandments-Mr-T/dp/B000U6IWG8)

This makes for a fascinating read:

http://www.yale.edu/ynhti/curriculum/units/2003/3/03.03.07.x.html

Thank goodness I'm not in college anymore. 

 :lol

A fascinating video about how much craft and skill goes into the rapping and rhyme constructing of some of best ones out there - Kendrick, MF DOOM, Mos Def, Eminem, Biggie, Rakim or Andre 3000. Recommended especially for those who still think rappers are talentless (regarding of whether or not you dig the genre personally...).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWveXdj6oZU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWveXdj6oZU)

Thanks, Ovi. I don't think I'd ever say rappers are talentless----it's just not my genre, is all.

Anyway, I've bookmarked the video and will watch it at the end of the evening. :=)

Fascinating is the word----and enlightening. I'll hear it in a whole new way from now on. Thanks!

If you had to recommend just one album by Kendrick Lamar, would it be To Pimp A Butterfly?

Definitely.

Thanks. I've got it lined up. In fact, I've started on it already. I think it's better if I comment on it after hearing it all... 

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I so don't understand the point of this post.

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I understood exactly what you said. I just don't see the point of it.

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John asked me to recommend him a Kendrick album. I don't think I've ever stated before that Pimp is my favorite album of his, or even the one I would recommend first. So what if nobody stated here before that rappers are talentless? Doesn't mean nobody thinks that nor doesn't this mean I can't "sell" a video in that way. This is so obscure that I can't believe I'm even arguing it. If you don't have anything interesting to add to the discussion (hip-hop) just don't add anything. Save the smartass observations that sound funny in your head. They're just annoying for the rest of us and interrupt the discussions.

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John doesn't read everything and what he does read may just happen to slip his mind later on. Please accept his apologies.

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How the f*** do you know? Did you personally interview every single one of the 3343 members? Or wait, perhaps I should put my trust in your stalking skills that you so actively let us know that you possess in the past.

No, I just came here to discuss my love for hip-hop before your out-of-place and passive-aggressive post.

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If you just stayed out of a topic that you don't have anything to add to instead of coming here just to tell a member that he was wrong in asking for an album recommendation from another member all would be avoided. Please do that next time and I promise I'll talk nicely to you and everybody else about music.

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Because he asked me this time!! I'm neither Bubbly, nor the captain.

At least this is how I understood it, given that he quoted me.

John correct me if I'm wrong...

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Deleted for the sake of a peaceful life.

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You're not wrong, Ovi. The album title rang a bell (I could even see the cover in my mind) and as you're a fan and much more knowledgeable on the subject it struck me as perhaps sensible to check.

I think the thing now is for me to carry on listening, as and when I find the time, and get back to you on it when I'm done.

RR, why don't you look at the links in my answering post in the "Oops" topic? I've kept it as clean as I can. :hat

Stop acting like you own this board. People can say whatever words they like.

john, I'm checking the 1st link - very interesting. youtube is very slow (and that's why I didn't yet listen to your Russian female composers). Talk later in the welcome thread.

Ovi, I did my best. Many tracks are unavailable on YT. But I managed to catch "For Free? (Interlude)", "King Kunta", "These Walls" (studio and Ellen version) and "Alright" (I'd already heard "i"). It's certainly impressive, but like most jazz (and RAM) it's just not my scene.

Most of the videos were pretty off-putting----the only whites were evil policemen and all the women were just there for sex. Not nice.    

Fair enough.

Here's a bit I wrote about MF DOOM, my favorite rapper at the moment, on Facebook:

MF DOOM is the natural reaction of a hip-hop era oversaturated with confessional, glimpse-into-their-mind artists. Rappers such as Biggie and 2Pac made hip-hop truly universal by adding the missing piece – that element that made the fans resonate. Maybe we could never fully put ourselves in their shoes, but we understood the feelings of dread, the eternal internal conflicts, the guilt. The suicidal thoughts of Biggie. The temptations of Pac. We, as the audience, connected. I’m referring to both the fans that were alive at the time and the rest who just listen to the albums in present time.

But as the 90s came to a close, way too many rappers were doing that. We needed some mystery. We didn’t need everything to be so Gosh Darn serious and personal. DOOM took it upon himself to embody all those needs. Scarred mentally from the unexpected death of his brother and band colleague in the early 90s, Daniel Dumile as is his real name quit the musical scene and in the next 5 years found himself nearly homeless. He came back though, right when the hip-hop world needed him, with a new name and a mask taken from the set of the Gladiator movie covering his face. Obviously inspired by the Marvel character. But still so much mystery attached to his persona. And to his lyrics as well, always full of metaphors, free associations and ambiguity. He doesn’t throw everything there is to know about him at us, which makes it twice as interesting because it lets the listener’s imagination to run wild. He’s not just the man behind the mask, but also the man behind the curtain.

(http://images.complex.com/complex/image/upload/c_limit,fl_progressive,q_80,w_680/ryybxspv4w6p4ugkfc3b.jpg)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewc1hixzYPY

MF DOOM was in the "instructional" video, right? The samples in this are really cool----that piano riff! I suppose that's what I listen out for in hip hop----the track, and not so much the words.

I can't stop listening to Young Thug.

Honestly, I really don't get the trap thing. They all sound to me like something you would play at a house party in the background (not for dancing, but just like that). It sounds good, but not something I ever feel the need to return to. Not much substance. And indistinguishable songs. I've tried albums by both Future and ASAP Rocky, some Waka Flocka...

Yup, DOOM was the one with the misleading punchline ("One thing this party could use is more...booze"). I personally love his style, tho from what I've seen he's a hate-him or love-him type artist. It took me a while to get into him. The song I posted is from Madvillainy, the famous collaboration between him and the excellent producer and jazz-aficionado Madlib.

Another interesting aspect is that DOOM's discography reminisces that of Dylan's in that a lot of his decisions are unexpected and 180-degree turns meant to give fans the unexpected. He's both a rapper and a producer. He made a name out of himself back in 1999 with his debut album, which he both produced and rapped on. Fans dug his persona and his rhyming ability in particular. So on the next release he basically eliminated both, adopting a whole new name and character, King Geedorah, and focused mainly on making the beats, letting other artists rap over them. The fans still dug the album, this time for the instrumental side. So the next release is under yet another different name, Viktor Vaughn, and this time there is not a single beat on the album created by him, only by obscure, unknown producers. Likewise, a few years later, collaborations with two ultra-famous hip-hop producers, Madlib and Danger Mouse, proved to be successful. So now in 2014 he collaborated with a producer that is not only unknown, but has literally done nothing of note before this.

That's pretty cool.

Thanks for the info. I've got three albums on YouTube lined up for dipping into: his debut, King G. and Viktor V, in that order.

Cool! Madvillainy is the real masterpiece though.

Haven't really listened to Future, but I enjoy some A$AP Rocky.
I didn't start listening to Young Thug until last night, though I actually thought some of his lyrics stood out to me.

Are there some non-trap artists you'd recommend? Lately I've been trying to expand my rap music tastes.
My neighbor has been playing Chance for me a lot recently. I still need to listen to Acid Rap more.

The rap artists I enjoy the most besides the previously mentioned MF DOOM are The Wu-Tang Clan (plus all solo), Eminem, Kendrick Lamar, Kanye West, Eric B. & Rakim, Beastie Boys, Public Enemy, 2Pac, The Notorious B.I.G., N.W.A and Dr. Dre. Not any you've never heard of before, but there you go, that's what my hip-hop tastes revolve around.

I've listened to Operation: Doomsday all the way through. And enjoyed every second.

I think another problem I have with a lot of rap (besides the importance of the lyrics) is that it's so intense (to me, at least). O:D is like a breath of fresh air, a brilliant and often hilarious collage with so much going on and some great samples (some familiar, some not).

I've since moved on to Take Me To Your Leader, which has a more wide-screen feel to it.

To be continued!

I know what you mean. DOOM is one of the few rappers that doesn't take himself seriously which is great because at the same time he truly is one of the best. His bragging is cryptic and funny and he deliberately stays away from rap cliches such as materialism with lyrics like this:

"The rest is empty with no brain but the clever nerd / The best MC with no chain you've ever heard"

"I get no kick from champagne / Mere alcohol doesn't thrill me at all / So tell me why shouldn't it be true / I get a kick out of brew"

The last one is kinda obvious when you think about what kind of lifestyle is associated with champagne in the hip-hop world.

Madvillainy is in my opinion the culmination of what he stands for; pretty much every song is around 2 minutes with no more than a verse. Usually the punchline of the verse is the name of the song (Accordion, All Caps, Figaro) but you don't realize until the very end how that word/those words fits in the scheme of things. There's no big choruses, moreover, there's no choruses at all, no big concept, no big arrangements. Everything is subdued and this came in an era where every rapper had to make a statement with each one of his over-an-hour-long albums. Madvillainy is to Eminem what Ramones were to Yes.

I dig Operation Doomsday a lot too, but some of the samples have not dated too well (those 80s drums in Red and Gold, ugh). I'm assuming you've spotted the Beatles sample.

Glad you enjoy the albums!

Just remembered another great, great lyric:

"How DOOM hold heat then preach non-violence? / Shhh, he about to start the speech, c'mon, silence"

I know this isn’t huge, but The RZA (Wu-Tang mastermind) briefly mentioned The Beach Boys is an interview with RollingStone.

Here is the excerpt:

RZA: I think as far as my energy is concerned, I’m definitely at the level of life where I kind of take it seriously but don’t take it so seriously. I’ve definitely had fun in my day. It’s gonna be sunny days. It’s gonna be cloudy days. You look at a song like “Ana Electronic.” To me, you’ll never find a song like that on a Wu-Tang album. As far as my performance on it, it’s very quirky. I wouldn’t even say it’s lyrical. It’s not like I’m conscious of my lyrical content. I didn’t care about my lyrical content. Sometimes when an artist writes his lyrics, he’s trying to write the best as if he wants everybody to praise him. In the particular song, I was just having fun. It goes along with the fun in the music and the fun that his voice was bringing. It has not gravitas to it. It’s like listening to a Beach Boys' song.

I wish we could find out what albums/songs The RZA likes from the BB's catalogue. Him talking about Brian Wilson could be a whole interview itself

Thanks for sharing, I'm a huge RZA fan.

Yes indeed, "Glass Onion". Brilliantly done----wow. I knew "The Finest " from The S.O.S Band's original version. They made some fantastic cuts. And "Big Black Cow" (Steely Dan). I'm now listening to Viktor Vaughn. MFD is certainly prolific! I see lots more albums by him (and his aliases) listed on YouTube. 

I also noticed a Magical Mystery Tour/Wu Tang Clan mash in the right-hand column of YT. I enjoyed The Grey Album (and I've only ever been aware of one song by Jay-Z, that "hard knocks life" one)----is this of the same calibre?   

Need a bit of a break. Three complete Doom albums in a row is quite something! But I still have Madvillainy bookmarked----one of these days... 

If you dig The Beach Boys and Rap...

(https://s31.postimg.org/4vzyhe3y3/adieu_or_die_500.jpg)

https://willc.bandcamp.com/album/adieu-or-die-album (https://willc.bandcamp.com/album/adieu-or-die-album)

Guess I should check out the general music section here a bit more often. It brought a huge smile to my face to see Ill Al Skratch "Where My Homies" mentioned on the SmileySmile board. YES!!

Hey Ovi----happy 22nd birthday, fella. Tonight I shall play Madvillainy in your honour. :=)

Cheers dude!

No lie.

I'm fully immersing myself in Kendrick and Chance lately. And admittedly some Kanye (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZgJyhKEZ8QU).

Kendrick is wonderful. I hate myself for not appreciating him more before.
And Chance is just sort of adorable. In a video I linked in another thread, Kanye joyously jumps up and down cheering on Chance the Prodigy.

New Kanye video for Fade:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxGvm6btP1A (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxGvm6btP1A)

I see what you mean----it's the best of the lot! Love what MFD does with samples.

I didn't realize he was born in London...

This is amazing! I've always wanted to something similar to this (I actually made a 'Heroes and Villains' mix in this style after TSS came out, and sorta dabbled with this style for my LOVE album) but this is on a whole other level. 'Cabin Fever' - I'm blown away. Those sections of 'Til I Die' in 'Blue Blazer' are fantastic!

I'm skipping through the songs because I don't have time for a full listen, but I'll definitely be coming back soon for a full listen. Seems like a lot of gems in this. Thanks for posting!

Oh, this song, this is fun:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WR5w3EufWOo

Madvillainy was actually produced by Madlib, one of the great hip-hop producers. It is a collaboration between him and MF. You can hear Madlib rapping as his high-pitched alter-ego Quasimoto in America's Most Blunted and Shadows of Tomorrow.

http://youtu.be/kxwzmJhIZCo
New DJ Paul video 'these haters broke'. My favorite song from the new mixtape/album Mafia4Life dude still makes sick beats.. Definately missing Lord Infamous & koopsta knicca on this one R.I.P..    & Dedicated to playa fly

You're not a true rap fan if you don't have "Breakin' Atoms" in your collection from Main Source
http://youtu.be/Yy8V-iUG0dw

I'm not a true rap fan. ;D

I know Ovi looks in from time to time. I wonder what he'd make of this? It's an unholy marriage of the voice and guitar of the remarkable Jandek and the beats of MF DOOM:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYKw3u5qPYM

Fresh Kid Ice (aka The Chinaman) of 2 Live Crew died last Thursday, aged 53.

Their big hit, "Me So Horny", caused no end of a ruckus in 1989. I remember it well. I thought it had, well, balls...

This is the clean version, as the dirty version is pretty dirty! :lol

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4rLkMiQ9xM

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2_Live_Crew

RIP, Chris Wong Won.

Ha! After taking a long break from MF Doom, I discovered a full-album YouTube vid of Madvillainy. ;D

Great stuff so far! I was bowled over to hear a snatch of "Sleeping In A Jar" from the Mothers' double album Uncle Meat (starts at 3:47)...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWY22Blwouc

Looking forward to the new Tyler, The Creator (https://open.spotify.com/album/2nkto6YNI4rUYTLqEwWJ3o) album. I am a pretty big fan of his stuff. Great sound.

I'm not much of a rap fan, Muggins (ask Ovi). Once the words become more important than the music I'm out of there. It's not just rap----protest songs may be well meant but they're lost on me...

There are exceptions, of course----there always are. Ovi has kindly opened up the world of MF Doom to me. The Doom album that appeals to me the most is Take me to Your Leader, where he assumes the guise of the three-headed King Geedorah. Wonderfully wacky stuff:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=leDzWauY5Tw

I know rapmeister Ovi snorts at the mere mention of Macklemore, but I'll take the risk, lol...

This is for Rick, who, um, left the fold today. If his behaviour wasn't just an utterly over-the-top
cri de coeur and he really believes what he said, perhaps he should listen to this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlVBg7_08n0

I took a listen to the few tracks from Kanye West's debut album available to me on YouTube and these two stood out:

"Through The Wire" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jr_5yTNvIt4)

"Slow Jamz" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HanMCyypC68)

Really like the use of samples here. Oh, and belated happy birthday, Ovi. :=)   

Thanks man. Really glad you dug it. I view Kanye as the single most important artist of the 21st century, and quite a genius in what he does. It seemed like every new album he did shifted the course of popular music. I love the high-pitched soul samples on The College Dropout, the whole album has such an inviting, warm character. Naturally, everybody started doing that after and he's never returned to it.

What do you think of it? Pretty great album.

John (and others), I remember you really liked the video I posted a while ago with the rhyme analysis of some great rappers. Here's some more regarding MF DOOM:

An line-by-line breakdown of Madvillain's Accordion that shows how much depth there really is inside every single DOOM bar. Maybe the video is too long, but even a few minutes can send your mind to a truly heavy trip, in the same way analyzing Dylan's lyrics does. It's a huge inspiration for me as an aspiring writer and a person interested in language.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3v5iqAWvvw& (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3v5iqAWvvw&)

On a lighter note, here's rapper Mos Def reciting DOOM lyrics and stopping every few bars just to laugh at how ridiculously cool/smart/funny they are. This is another one of my favorite videos, for it shows a famous artist acknowledging and being passionate about another one and often there's no higher praise. It's like when Keith Richards talks about Chuck Berry and you realize how much it means to him.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTBIvIDnnv8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTBIvIDnnv8)

Highlight: When he gets to the 3rd verse of Beef Rapp and you realize along with him how funny DOOM's put-downs of mainstream rappers really are:

What up?
To all rappers: shut up with your shutting up
And keep your shirt on, at least a button-up
Yuck, is they rhymers or strippin' males?
Out of work jerks since they shut down Chippendales

Two cool vids there, Ovi. I gave the breakdown of Accordion about six minutes, which was enough to discover just how dense DOOM's rhyming is--
--not one wasted syllable. And the Mos Def video is hilarious! Wow, a true fan---he keeps shaking his head in wonder. 

Thanks a lot for those!

I've lined up Mad Villainy again for early morning & late night listening.

After DOOM's brilliant epic album it's "drunk in the club" time again, haha (sorry, Ovi). "10,000 Hours" is most unusual in that it starts very upbeat and bright with some great synth lines but ends in the dark ("welcome to the heist"). I don't think you can say that about many songs...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qT3wLBjq53w   

I wonder whether Ovi still looks in here from time to time?

Yesterday I caught a snatch of Naughty by Nature's "O.P.P." in the George Clooney vehicle Up in the Air (great film, as it happens) and thought it might be nice to link the whole thing here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idx3GSL2KWs

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naughty_by_Nature

JK, have you listened to anything by OutKast? Been playing them a lot since I last posted here. Andre 3000 and Big Boi kind of remind me of Lennon and McCartney in the way they kind of have opposing personalities - Andre is the erratic, artsy one and Big Boi the old-school gangsta, though technically brilliant . Of course you must include some overlap in that generalization. But at their best, before they grew apart they really seemed to complement each other and made some masterpiece albums that went beyond what people thought hip-hop to be at the time. Here are some songs:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K4ziWLxcjk8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlU7na2-xpk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fAeFEmp0WFU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ilf-2N6ibjg

Hi Ovi. All I know of them is a cool single, "Ms. Jackson". And that everyone was raving about their double CD Speakerboxxx/The Love Below a while back.

Thanks for those tracks and for the tip. I'll seek out a complete album of theirs on YouTube for future listening. ;)

(https://i.imgur.com/xoANAw1.jpg?1)

Hi Ovi. I gave their album Aquemini a try last night but gave up after a few tracks. I guess I'm just a poor rap student! ;D

Stuff I like? Doggy Style, Fear of a Black Planet (although it's very intense!) and your friend MF Doom, particularly Take Me To Your Leader.  ;)

Love all those you mentioned. Take Me to Your Leader may just have DOOM's best beats. Although I wish he would rap more on it - he's probably my favorite MC when things like flow, delivery and lyrics are considered. For Public Enemy I think I'll always go with It Takes a Nation... which I feel has their strongest songs, even though Fear is kind of a bigger album in scope. If I have one minor complaint about Enemy it would be that Chuck D, while a great lyricist, kind of falls short as a rapper for me. I think his rhymes are kind of rudimentary and rarely keep me interested. Maybe he thought that was necessary for the message to be properly understood, but I'd much rather listen to Rakim out of his contemporaries (even Ice Cube) who runs circles around Chuck. Not to mention the 90s rappers who took MC-ing to a new level.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sulaqzO0ICk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sulaqzO0ICk)

Reviving this thread. This is "Piranha", featuring Toastie Taylor, from Techno Anlmal's The Brotherhood of the Bomb, released, as fate would have it, on 11 September, 2001:  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=haRzBWSgAzo

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Brotherhood_of_the_Bomb

Kid Cudi's "The Rage" is the closing track on the otherwise non-verbal album of music from Andrew Lockington's 2018 film Rampage:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MW7BnQuXvJE

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rampage_(soundtrack) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rampage_(soundtrack))

This is rap of quite a different kind. "The Crazy Ray" features on a great Gary Lucas comp called Level (the) Playing Field, which I bought and first played on 11 September, 2001 (that date again). That's K-Rob on vocals (see link for the original album):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ysrhVsLj5g

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/BfXXSx1_8OMTrLScRtXRHPtYlAV8-LjyXakaH-vH6TR_s56IGfEjFXbiWdSPjBxFuYGhV-ow6BOJ9CJkrdnzxZ4IyMTUlmjEDksRRqN2SG9gUd908Q)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gods_and_Monsters_(Gary_Lucas_album) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gods_and_Monsters_(Gary_Lucas_album))

This is for Ovi (probably not his jam but that's life I guess): "Birthday" by Flo Rida ft. Rick Ross.   

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4m3-etvEVQ

What is this if not rap? Ginger Baker bewails the fact that Americans are unable to make a decent cuppa. Now this is serious!

"Pour boiling water over the tea / How simple and clear can instructions be?"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTuXBoA688Y

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunrise_on_the_Sufferbus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunrise_on_the_Sufferbus)