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Title: Brian's mental history Post by: donutbandit on December 20, 2007, 07:28:18 PM I've read a couple of posts here that got me to thinking about the timeline of Brian's apparent mental degredation. One mentioned that he seemed very lucid in 1981.
I've seen a number of live performances made after that. All the way up to the campfire scenes on "The Beach Boys Endless Summer" in 1988, I didn't see any noticible problem. Brian wasn't shuffling, he wasn't slurring his voice, or speaking out of the side of his mouth any more than previously. He performed "In My Car" during this series, and though it was obvious that he was suffering intense stage fright, he strode back and forth while singing the song, even sang the falsetto, and at the end, gave a big grin while doing a pantomime axe chop with the mike. The shuffling gait, slurring, mouth twisting, all seemed to happen after this. I saw a segment on Entertainment Tonight around 1991 about Carnie and Wendy recording "Flesh & Blood" to try and reach Brian through music. There was a short clip of Brian being asked about his daughters. There was a bit of word slurring, but not too much. The record seems to indicate that most of Brian's mental damage was caused by Dr. Eugene Landy in a period after 1991. Is it possible that, once the battle to get Brian out of Landy's clutches began, that Landy gave Brian drugs to make him seem out of it, incompetent, someone who desperately needed psychiatric care? And is it possible that, if this happened, these drugs caused permanent damage to Brian's mind? Is it even possible that, once Landy had seen that he would lose Brian, he may have administered some kind of drug cocktail intended to cause Brian's death? It was reported that more than one person had seen a copy of Brian's will amended to make Landy Brian's sole beneficiary. I don't remember where I saw that now. It may have been on the same Entertainment Tonight segment referred to earlier. Any input from observers who saw much more than I did would be appreciated. Title: Re: Brian's mental history Post by: Amy B. on December 20, 2007, 08:41:18 PM I don't know much more than you do, except what I've read on this board. I believe Peter Reum posted about this subject in the past. I think he said the slurring had more to do with side effects from Landy-era drugs than anything else. You might do a search for his post.
Title: Re: Brian's mental history Post by: Wirestone on December 21, 2007, 12:05:30 AM It is my understanding that Brian was essentially pumped up on speed throughout the second Landy period (83-92 ish), and that the heavy cocktail of drugs -- which helped him seem lucid and pumped up through that time -- was what ultimately harmed him. He was weaned from them when he met and married Melinda (94-95), and it's from then on that you see the Brian of today.
Title: Re: Brian's mental history Post by: MBE on December 21, 2007, 12:17:48 AM One thing has to be said he always had an eccentric sense of humor and demeanor. Yet in the interviews I have heard up through 1974 he doesn't seem depressed or ill. He's talkative and ususally positive. No one talked about his illness' then probably because it was only in 1976 that the full extent of his problems were made public. From 1976-81 he still is usually positive and forthcoming but there are times were he seems high or perhaps distressed. The 1976 bed interview is one where I think you can see he has changed. His problems were taking more center stage, but he was still pretty lucid. Now from 1983-91 Brian was told what to say by Landy. Maybe he was forced to be a little more talkative then now, but mostly he was showing signs of not being able to consintrate like before, and when you could pin him down all he did was sing the praises of Eugene ad nausem. I remember somebody on here speaking of seeing Brian on Entertainment Tonight in 1983. I don't remember exactly what they said but I have seen the tape and he was making odd facial expressions, almost seemed to have a bit of a tick. He was stressing the wrong words, and had a hint of a slur. All the things you see now but less pronounced. Go forward to 1986 I have a documentary on McCartney that aired on the USA network that Brian is in. His mouth is very crooked and his words are very slurred. I have heard , though it's been often denied, that Brian had a mild stroke around then while undergoing surgery to repair a broken cheekbone. As much as it has been explained away or denied, something in the story rings true. By 1991 he did seem worse and was slurring worse then ever before. Perhaps this was him at his worst, I was reading reports of him passing out at book signings. Now since 1992 Brian is overall brief in interviews and often doesn't seem fully involved with his surroundings. There are exceptions, and his memory sometimes can be really good, but he is nothing like he was originally, even by late 70's standards. I don't mean to be harsh, but while I am proud of much of what he has achieved in the last ten years, he doesn't seem "normal". That's OK and I accept him for who he is, he still seems like a very good person, but he just is not someone that is comfortable sitting down and chatting with somebody and it painfully shows. The reason I stress this is because I am tired of everyone since 1976 saying "Brian was nuts but look at how great he is now" when he obviously is a man who has done damage to himself that cannot be fixed.. As far as the Endless Summer show goes, I notice that he already has kind of a haunted look in his eyes and I at least can hear a slur. He is fairly lucid with the stories though and seems very happy around the band.
Title: Re: Brian's mental history Post by: She Dont Know A Thing on December 21, 2007, 01:43:39 AM I think MBE nailed it. Despite the fact he was reaching his low point of drug and food addiction, 1982 seems to be the last time Brian seemed anything at all like his old self. The second Landy era saved his life, but it seems he lost a lot of his original personality in that time.
Then again, I'm just going on his public presentation here. Title: Re: Brian's mental history Post by: Sound of Free on December 21, 2007, 02:14:17 AM This Brian interview from 1980 really surprised me the first time I saw it. The physical decline is showing (he looks like he hasn't washed his hair in quite a while) he's very lucid, animated and upbeat.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8g0laPq4Oc&feature=related Whether it was unintentional or not, I think Landy definitely overmedicated him, causing the slurring and other damage that lingers to this day. Title: Re: Brian's mental history Post by: jmc on December 21, 2007, 07:48:09 AM Yes I agree. Sadly, it appears Landy doped him up good the second time around and he hasn't fully recovered from it yet. Even during the first stint (1976) what few interviews he did he seemed more like a deer in the headlights.
I love these late 70's and pre-Landy 80's interviews of him. " I love Food " too funny.... He seems very real. I mean just listening to him in the Les Chan interview he seems very relaxed, open and friendly and this was in 81 when he was supposed to be burnt-up. Title: Re: Brian's mental history Post by: Andrew G. Doe on December 21, 2007, 11:38:23 AM I've had it said to me by 'an interested party' that Landy's basic MO was to keep Brian placid with Thorazine, and pump him full of uppers when required for an interview or similar public consumption. The medications Landy filled Brian with did far more damage than anything he took in the 60s & 70s, and came very close to finishing him as a functioning human being. As it was, Brian was considerably damaged. Remember this next time anyone says "yes, but, he did save Brian's life".
Title: Re: Brian's mental history Post by: Fun Is In on December 21, 2007, 01:59:18 PM Anti-psychotic drugs like Thorazine can lead to a side effect called "tardive dyskinesia", especially when used over long periods.
Google that term for info. Besides the side effects of such meds, psychiatric conditions also have natural progressions that lead to changes in the person. I don't know much about the natural history of the disease name currently applied to Brian's condition (schizoaffective disorder?) . But in the case of schizophrenia, people affected by it eventually have their psychosis "burn out", which means the symptoms diminish, but the affect and personality of the person often go down with it too. That happens with or without meds, so it's not always possible to know what "blame" to lay where. Whatever the cause, it's a tragedy. Title: Re: Brian's mental history Post by: Jay on December 21, 2007, 09:18:36 PM In my opinion, Brian is MUCH worse today than ever before. Even in 1981, it's very obvious that Brian was addicted to drugs and various other things, but his personality always came through. Today, he's like a robot...a "yes man". It makes me wonder what Brian would be like today, if he had been "sobered up" in 1983, but not actually put on any type of medications. His auditory and visual hallucinations would probably be worse though.
Title: Re: Brian's mental history Post by: donutbandit on December 21, 2007, 10:22:42 PM None of us can ever know the hell that Brian has been through. I'm fairly certain that he would have killed himself in the early 1980s without the intervention of the family and Landy. Would we rather have a dead Brian?
So, he's worse. He's alive, and is enjoying his life as much as possible. When I am 65, I hope I can say the same. I have 10 years to work on it. Title: Re: Brian's mental history Post by: Jay on December 21, 2007, 10:37:15 PM This Brian interview from 1980 really surprised me the first time I saw it. The physical decline is showing (he looks like he hasn't washed his hair in quite a while) he's very lucid, animated and upbeat. If you watch that film closely, Brian is already starting to talk out of the side of his mouth.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8g0laPq4Oc&feature=related Whether it was unintentional or not, I think Landy definitely overmedicated him, causing the slurring and other damage that lingers to this day. Title: Re: Brian's mental history Post by: donutbandit on December 21, 2007, 11:09:25 PM Quote If you watch that film closely, Brian is already starting to talk out of the side of his mouth. Some of that may be hereditary. Clips of Audree also show her speaking out of one side of her mouth. Title: Re: Brian's mental history Post by: mikeyj on December 21, 2007, 11:57:15 PM Quote If you watch that film closely, Brian is already starting to talk out of the side of his mouth. Some of that may be hereditary. Clips of Audree also show her speaking out of one side of her mouth. Brian has always spoken out of the side of his mouth hasn't he? I'm pretty sure Rich Sloan said that in high school Brian was talking out the side of his mouth. Of course it wasn't as noticeable as it is now but it was always the case as far as I know. Title: Re: Brian's mental history Post by: mikeyj on December 22, 2007, 12:04:08 AM I've had it said to me by 'an interested party' that Landy's basic MO was to keep Brian placid with Thorazine, and pump him full of uppers when required for an interview or similar public consumption. The medications Landy filled Brian with did far more damage than anything he took in the 60s & 70s, and came very close to finishing him as a functioning human being. As it was, Brian was considerably damaged. Remember this next time anyone says "yes, but, he did save Brian's life". Yeah I hate Landy. What was the name of that reporter that did that story on Landy where Landy doesn't have an answer for a lot of her questions? There's one question where he just sits there and dosen't know what to say for about 20 seconds. That video made me hate Landy more than I did before (before I just knew that he was "bad" and that he controlled Brian). But that video made me realise how much of a bad guy Landy really was. Brian seems in a really bad way in that interview. It's sad when the reporter asks Brian "why haven't you seen your kids" and he doesn't know why, but you can see the pain on his face. So sad!! Title: Re: Brian's mental history Post by: Loaf on December 22, 2007, 04:16:38 AM Brian has always spoken to one side to some degree. Perhaps he bothered to hide it better in the 60s, when he was seen as 'cool'.
He does it because he is almost deaf in one ear. By 'talking toward' his good ear, he can hear himself better. You can try it yourself by covering up one ear and talking out of your mouth to both sides. It's like playing a gig with monitors. You can gauge yourself better when you can hear yourself better. i am unaware that Brian has ever has a stroke. Title: Re: Brian's mental history Post by: Andrew G. Doe on December 22, 2007, 10:01:09 AM I've had it said to me by 'an interested party' that Landy's basic MO was to keep Brian placid with Thorazine, and pump him full of uppers when required for an interview or similar public consumption. The medications Landy filled Brian with did far more damage than anything he took in the 60s & 70s, and came very close to finishing him as a functioning human being. As it was, Brian was considerably damaged. Remember this next time anyone says "yes, but, he did save Brian's life". Yeah I hate Landy. What was the name of that reporter that did that story on Landy where Landy doesn't have an answer for a lot of her questions? There's one question where he just sits there and dosen't know what to say for about 20 seconds. That video made me hate Landy more than I did before (before I just knew that he was "bad" and that he controlled Brian). But that video made me realise how much of a bad guy Landy really was. Brian seems in a really bad way in that interview. It's sad when the reporter asks Brian "why haven't you seen your kids" and he doesn't know why, but you can see the pain on his face. So sad!! Diane Sawyer. She nailed the s.o.b to the wall and it was a pleasure to watch. Think it's on youtube. Title: Re: Brian's mental history Post by: the captain on December 22, 2007, 10:41:08 AM Diane Sawyer. She nailed the s.o.b to the wall and it was a pleasure to watch. Think it's on youtube. Part 1: http://youtube.com/watch?v=2-vhRkfFgj8 Part 2: http://youtube.com/watch?v=y9C_lKYhWr4&feature=related The 7:00 minute mark (or thereabouts) of Part 2 is wonderful...Landy's silence, as he is unable to answer Sawyer's point that he violated his profession's code of ethics. But shortly before that is sad, when she asks Brian if he knows how much he pays Landy. The response is "I wish not to answer that." Title: Re: Brian's mental history Post by: Chris Brown on December 22, 2007, 02:58:46 PM Diane Sawyer. She nailed the s.o.b to the wall and it was a pleasure to watch. Think it's on youtube. Part 1: http://youtube.com/watch?v=2-vhRkfFgj8 Part 2: http://youtube.com/watch?v=y9C_lKYhWr4&feature=related The 7:00 minute mark (or thereabouts) of Part 2 is wonderful...Landy's silence, as he is unable to answer Sawyer's point that he violated his profession's code of ethics. But shortly before that is sad, when she asks Brian if he knows how much he pays Landy. The response is "I wish not to answer that." Wow those are really disturbing videos. Brian seems so out of it, and there's Landy smiling and justifying cutting Brian off from his family. Very sad to see. Title: Re: Brian's mental history Post by: sherryluvsbrian on December 22, 2007, 05:21:25 PM Brians mouth always turned to one side. In old clips of the beach boys you can see it way back in 62'. He said he started hearing voice's at 25 years old, Brian had mental problems back then. Drugs he did on his own messed up his brain pretty good. Landy made his problems worse with the drugs he gave brian, they were very powerful and with all the drugs though the years, brian's and landy's, this is the result.
Title: Re: Brian's mental history Post by: endofposts on December 22, 2007, 07:13:14 PM In Tim White's book, he discussed the complaint filed by Brian's plastic surgeon against Dr. Landy. The complaint said Brian was on something like 14 different drugs at the same time. The surgeon was concerned by Brian's low blood pressure, so he had his blood tested for all the chemicals in it. He was even on betablockers, probably to help him function in public settings. When a person is on that many meds, they're bound to have an effect, because they interact with each other. Brian also suffered liver failure in the early '80s, so his liver may not metabolize drugs as well as a person with no history of that. Landy had Brian seeing more than one medical doctor, so he probably was able to get multiple prescriptions for different drugs without anyone know what was what. It would be difficult to tell what caused any permanent damage, but some drugs have side effects that can remain even after they've been stopped. Brian is lucky to be alive and as healthy as he is.
Title: Re: Brian's mental history Post by: Fun Is In on December 22, 2007, 07:34:16 PM "Liver failure" may be an exagerrated term.
If you have liver failure you either get a liver transplant or you die. Title: Re: Brian's mental history Post by: Jay on December 22, 2007, 08:19:31 PM I've had it said to me by 'an interested party' that Landy's basic MO was to keep Brian placid with Thorazine, and pump him full of uppers when required for an interview or similar public consumption. The medications Landy filled Brian with did far more damage than anything he took in the 60s & 70s, and came very close to finishing him as a functioning human being. As it was, Brian was considerably damaged. Remember this next time anyone says "yes, but, he did save Brian's life". Just how close did Brian come to not functioning as a human being, may I ask? I once read a story about Brian talking to Hal Blaine during this period. Supposedly, Hal mentioned "Good Vibrations", and Brian had no clue what he was talking about. Title: Re: Brian's mental history Post by: Andrew G. Doe on December 22, 2007, 09:03:26 PM In 1991, according to someone who knows about these things, Brian had maybe five years before the meds he was on reduced him to a permanent zombie - check out the final stages of tardative dyskinesia.
Title: Re: Brian's mental history Post by: mikeyj on December 22, 2007, 10:17:49 PM In 1991, according to someone who knows about these things, Brian had maybe five years before the meds he was on reduced him to a permanent zombie - check out the final stages of tardative dyskinesia. When you think about it the Brian Wilson story really is sad, yet it is also really inspiring how one can come through so much crap such as the abuse by Murry, the drugs abuse that he did to himself, the mental problems, Landy... Quite inspiring how he has come up with so much incredible music and I think that's why the music is so heartfelt. We Love You Brian!! Title: Re: Brian's mental history Post by: mikeyj on December 22, 2007, 10:20:06 PM Just how close did Brian come to not functioning as a human being, may I ask? I once read a story about Brian talking to Hal Blaine during this period. Supposedly, Hal mentioned "Good Vibrations", and Brian had no clue what he was talking about. Andrew or whoever, do you know what time period it was when Brian apparently kept playing "Heroes And Villains" (I think) and saying to people "do you know that song".. It's in that An American Family movie and I didn't know if it was true or not but then on the A&E documentary Hal Blaine tells the story. Title: Re: Brian's mental history Post by: mikeyj on December 22, 2007, 10:23:53 PM Diane Sawyer. She nailed the s.o.b to the wall and it was a pleasure to watch. Think it's on youtube. Good on her!! One of the unsung heroes in the Brian Wilson story!! Atleast by most people Title: Re: Brian's mental history Post by: endofposts on December 22, 2007, 10:34:36 PM "Liver failure" may be an exagerrated term. If you have liver failure you either get a liver transplant or you die. There's chronic liver failure (long term damage that requires a transplant because the liver no longer functions at all, or will fail shortly), and acute, short-term liver failure (such as brought on by drug and alcohol OD's). Sometimes acute liver failure is not so severe as to require an immediate transplant, but can be treated in other ways, then the the liver can heal itself and regenerate, eventually. However, there is usually some damage remaining. When Landy was brought in for the second time in the early '80s, Brian had been hospitalized with acute liver failure and other medical problems. Carnie Wilson said she was told at the time that her father might not live. It's actually amazing that he did pull out of it and got better. That's why he was so grateful to Landy, because it is believed that Landy's program did literally save his life, because he was near death at the time Landy was consulted (and his survival depended on getting off drugs, alcohol, and getting back in physical shape). However, Landy did things that also damaged Brian. The fact that Brian has brain damage might be the result of taking massive amounts of medication with a liver that was already scarred and damaged. Title: Re: Brian's mental history Post by: Sheriff John Stone on December 22, 2007, 10:38:57 PM Just how close did Brian come to not functioning as a human being, may I ask? I once read a story about Brian talking to Hal Blaine during this period. Supposedly, Hal mentioned "Good Vibrations", and Brian had no clue what he was talking about. Andrew or whoever, do you know what time period it was when Brian apparently kept playing "Heroes And Villains" (I think) and saying to people "do you know that song".. It's in that An American Family movie and I didn't know if it was true or not but then on the A&E documentary Hal Blaine tells the story. I thought the song was "Good Vibrations", and the time period was late 1975/early 1976, right at the beginning of Brian's re-emergence for the 15 Big Ones/"Brian Is Back" campaign. Title: Re: Brian's mental history Post by: donutbandit on December 23, 2007, 12:15:51 AM Quote Wow those are really disturbing videos. Brian seems so out of it, and there's Landy smiling and justifying cutting Brian off from his family. Very sad to see. That's the worst I have ever seen Brian. That probably was the video I referred to previously. I remember watching that. Very painful. Title: Re: Brian's mental history Post by: Jay on December 23, 2007, 12:50:34 AM I was going to create a seperate topic for this, but it seems to fit in here too. As of today, how does Brian view the whole "autobiography" debacle?
Title: Re: Brian's mental history Post by: mikeyj on December 23, 2007, 04:32:13 AM Just how close did Brian come to not functioning as a human being, may I ask? I once read a story about Brian talking to Hal Blaine during this period. Supposedly, Hal mentioned "Good Vibrations", and Brian had no clue what he was talking about. Andrew or whoever, do you know what time period it was when Brian apparently kept playing "Heroes And Villains" (I think) and saying to people "do you know that song".. It's in that An American Family movie and I didn't know if it was true or not but then on the A&E documentary Hal Blaine tells the story. I thought the song was "Good Vibrations", and the time period was late 1975/early 1976, right at the beginning of Brian's re-emergence for the 15 Big Ones/"Brian Is Back" campaign. Yeah you are probably right. I checked the A&E documentary and I was wrong, Hal Blaine just says "he played the intro to one of their hits". I could have sworn I heard H&V but since I was wrong, "Good Vibrations" was probably the song. Title: Re: Brian's mental history Post by: Andrew G. Doe on December 23, 2007, 08:53:53 AM Just how close did Brian come to not functioning as a human being, may I ask? I once read a story about Brian talking to Hal Blaine during this period. Supposedly, Hal mentioned "Good Vibrations", and Brian had no clue what he was talking about. Andrew or whoever, do you know what time period it was when Brian apparently kept playing "Heroes And Villains" (I think) and saying to people "do you know that song".. It's in that An American Family movie and I didn't know if it was true or not but then on the A&E documentary Hal Blaine tells the story. Mid-seventies - this was one of the many circumstantial details that the 2000 mini series got right. I think it was "GV", though and I'm pretty sure Carol Kaye was there too. I'd ask her, but... ::) Title: Re: Brian's mental history Post by: Andrew G. Doe on December 23, 2007, 09:02:29 AM "Liver failure" may be an exagerrated term. If you have liver failure you either get a liver transplant or you die. There's chronic liver failure (long term damage that requires a transplant because the liver no longer functions at all, or will fail shortly), and acute, short-term liver failure (such as brought on by drug and alcohol OD's). Sometimes acute liver failure is not so severe as to require an immediate transplant, but can be treated in other ways, then the the liver can heal itself and regenerate, eventually. However, there is usually some damage remaining. When Landy was brought in for the second time in the early '80s, Brian had been hospitalized with acute liver failure and other medical problems. Carnie Wilson said she was told at the time that her father might not live. It's actually amazing that he did pull out of it and got better. That's why he was so grateful to Landy, because it is believed that Landy's program did literally save his life, because he was near death at the time Landy was consulted (and his survival depended on getting off drugs, alcohol, and getting back in physical shape). However, Landy did things that also damaged Brian. The fact that Brian has brain damage might be the result of taking massive amounts of medication with a liver that was already scarred and damaged. According to a 1982 interview with Landy, when he was put in charge of Brian for the second time, they immediately checked him into hospital for a full medical, and his actual words were "he had 30% lung capacity and no liver". The former I can believe, but not the latter, as Brian would have been 1) yellow and 2) dead shortly thereafter. You can do very nicely for quite a while with a liver that's got an increasingly reduced function. And I can say that with some authority. 8) Title: Re: Brian's mental history Post by: donutbandit on December 25, 2007, 07:46:17 PM Been watching a lot of Brian video the past few days, and for at least the past 10 years, his mouth is twisted to the left almost all the time, even when he's not talking. That would seem to debunk the loss of hearing theory, unless it's become a habit.
The stroke theory seems to match almost everything we see nowadays, except - if it was a stroke, we would expect to see a sudden change in Brian's behavior, and from what I can see, it's all been gradual. Title: Re: Brian's mental history Post by: MBE on December 25, 2007, 08:38:18 PM Well a minor stroke wouldn't show changes beyond what we do see. I hardly think he had a major stroke, but the story I heard seems credible. Again in the spirit of fairness it has been oft denied.
Title: Re: Brian's mental history Post by: Jay on December 25, 2007, 08:41:55 PM Also, if he did have a stroke, we should be able to notice slight paralysis in his arms or legs.
Title: Re: Brian's mental history Post by: Jay on December 25, 2007, 08:49:00 PM There was a video of Brian posted by jmc in my topic about the 1996 Beach Boys studio sessions, but I thought it also belongs here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IsqaASroCTs Title: Re: Brian's mental history Post by: Jay on December 25, 2007, 08:52:03 PM Even in 1995, Brian to me seemed more "normal" than he does today. Although, to say that Brian is not "lucid" today seems unfair to me. Brian is still a very intelligent man, and a facinating "interviewee". He just acts much more shy, or even scared, to be around people today.
Title: Re: Brian's mental history Post by: donutbandit on December 25, 2007, 09:07:25 PM Quote Also, if he did have a stroke, we should be able to notice slight paralysis in his arms or legs. Possibly the source of the strange gait he has been attributed with? Title: Re: Brian's mental history Post by: donutbandit on December 25, 2007, 09:13:19 PM I watched the "very long" interview on Youtube (please don't ask me to name the interviewer - it's beyond the scope of my memory) and Brian seems unable to continue even the slightest conversation. The interviewer asked many questions designed to draw him out, and the response was always a direct answer to the question, maybe with a "yeah" at the end to punctuate it. And than, a blank look.
Maybe stage fright? Title: Re: Brian's mental history Post by: Andrew G. Doe on December 25, 2007, 10:05:11 PM Also, if he did have a stroke, we should be able to notice slight paralysis in his arms or legs. Footage in the late 80s/early 90s showing Brian jogging (more shuffling, actually) caused my doctor to say to me, unprompted, "that man has very probably had a stroke sometime, though he might not realise it". Then again it could be due to Landy's medication. Title: Re: Brian's mental history Post by: donutbandit on December 25, 2007, 10:39:07 PM So, why would the Landy camp, and now, the Brian camp, deny the stroke theory? What an easy way out for the Landy camp. "Brian suffered a small stroke while under surgery, and this is why he talks out of one side of his mouth, slurs his words, and can't follow conversations."
Landy is dead, so maybe the current Brian camp hopes to sue the Landy estate for malpractice. It's way late in the game, so maybe the current Brian camp just wishes to allow peace. That is what I wish as well. I still think that Brian exhibits symptoms of a stroke. Title: Re: Brian's mental history Post by: Shane on December 26, 2007, 12:07:57 AM There are a couple of general points that I'd like to contribute to this discussion. If someone with medical training would like to disagree, go right ahead, but here's what I've come to know:
1. Brain damage that is outwardly noticeable due to drug use, many times, comes about in a very delayed way. Your brain has built-in "reserve cells" that are meant to come into use later in life, after the initial cells die off. When someone uses drugs that cause brain cells to die, the brain will revert to these "reserve cells" at first. While these reserve cells are in use, no outwardly noticeable consequences may occur. Later on in life, however, when it comes time for the brain to use the "reserve cells", they aren't available. So sometimes its only then that a person will begin to show visible signs of brain damage. This may, in part, explain why Brian's personality seemed to be more "with it" in 1981 versus today. Its a delayed reaction. 2. Keep in mind that medications Brian is currently taking are not without side affects. This may affect the way Brian acts/responds at a certain time on a certain day. If Brian seems rather "not with it" on a certain day, it may not be because his condition has worsened drastically over the past 10 years, it just may be a side affect of whatever he's currently on. If taken off proper clinical medication (as he was circa 1981), he may end up seeming more "with it" in some ways, but his symptoms may grow worse as well. Just some thoughts. Title: Re: Brian's mental history Post by: Amy B. on December 26, 2007, 05:24:52 AM Also, sometimes when Brian is not forthcoming in interviews or seems "out of it," it might just be because he's not comfortable with the situation or having a day where the symptoms of his mental illness are more present. Brian's friends claim that in private, when he's comfortable, Brian is very lucid. You can choose to believe that or not, but there have been cases where he's caught on camera like that. For example, his 1997 chat with George Martin. He's taking to Martin with such passion and nuance in his voice-- he reminds me of 60s Brian. Also, his interview from the Rodney Bingenheimer DVD shows a very lucid and comfortable Brian. More recently, the interview in the tour book (a print interview) contains very long, funny, conversational responses to the questions, and Brian was speaking to someone he's known for years.
Overall, Brian seems less open and talkative than he was before the 1990s, but he is clearly capable of having a conversation at times. Title: Re: Brian's mental history Post by: Sheriff John Stone on December 26, 2007, 05:38:25 AM I've also wondered about the possibility of a stroke, but I usually end of doubting it for two reasons. First, after the possible stroke, Brian was running over 5 miles a day. That's not a walk in the park, even for non-stroke 45+ year old people. Now, that's still possible after a stroke, look at the New England Patriots Teddy Brusci. He returned to the NFL after a stroke. But Landy was on thin ice at the time, and for him to not find out and/or not disclose it - and, to be working Brian out like that - well, that would've been crossing the line, even for Landy.
Second, and this is not a knock at Melinda, so don't attack me! I'm sure Melinda has had Brian checked out from head (and I repeat head) to toe - at least a couple of times. If Brian had a stroke, I believe that she would've disclosed it in an interview. She's been very forthcoming with her comments on Brian's condition. And, come to think about it, so has Brian. The stroke diagnosis would've come out. Title: Re: Brian's mental history Post by: Mr. Wilson on December 27, 2007, 07:27:41 AM Sheriff.. I do believe your RIGHT..! Hasnt BW allways been forthcoming with the good bad + ugly..??.. BB used it for publicity also..I AGREE with U TOTALLY...!!
Title: Re: Brian's mental history Post by: Dr. Tim on December 27, 2007, 08:44:06 AM Some prior posters hint at this, but let's bring it out front. Brian's condition can change not only from day to day, but hour to hour. This is clear from the documentary, his other TV appearances, and having seem him up close and spoken briefly with him. He can be all there, and then not there. When he is there, he's scary focused, like a laser. That's when he gets things done, or is particularly witty. The "President to Three Dog Night" line fits in that category, as does the "Strangers In The Night" remark, which I took as a gag too. The meds he takes probably need constant adjustment (a common problem for that kind of therapy). Also remember Peter Reum's diagnosis of tardive dyskinesia due to the earlier overdoses of antipsychotic drugs, the sequelae from that can look like a stroke too. I don't think that is now seriously disputed. And don't forget: his fading in and out could be a deliberate strategy, an easy way to end an interview or other encounter he is bored with. (That is my guess anyway, more knowledgable folk can confirm or debunk that). I have a friend who has consciously developed that technique and it is so effective I've caught myself starting to do it too; it's a great way to end a conversation if you don't mind people thinking you're a little spacey.
Title: Re: Brian's mental history Post by: Sheriff John Stone on December 27, 2007, 09:14:48 AM In my opinion, I don't think Brian's "fading in and out" is intentional or a game. I wish it was.
And, I believe he was totally serious about "Strangers In The Night". It probably was his favorite song - at that very moment. Title: Re: Brian's mental history Post by: Aegir on December 27, 2007, 02:33:07 PM Brian answers questions in a weird way. I remember reading an interview that went something like:
Interviewer - What's the last movie you've seen? Brian - Norbitt. Interviewer - What's your favorite movie of all time? Brian - Norbitt. Or how he said that Lyle Lovett's version of God Only Knows was his favorite. That's because it was the last version he had heard. And I'm sure he would've said that Hootie and the Blowfish's version of I Get Around or whatever was his favorite version of that song, too. Title: Re: Brian's mental history Post by: adamghost on December 27, 2007, 07:44:00 PM I've been in the same room with Brian 3-4 times, but I only met him once, in 1993-94, before we had any friends in common. I happened to blunder into a restaurant where he and Melinda were playing pool. I mustered the courage to go talk to him but was struck utterly dumb. Brian took complete control of the conversation, shook my hand, and same some very warm and encouraging things to me. It was every fanboy's dream of meeting Brian Wilson. The guy did really come off like God in every respect. No awkwardness, just kindness, quite pride, and compassion.
Point being, it was one on one, in a non-threatening environment that he felt comfortable in, and a situation he was in control of, so he could relax and be himself and more than that, be authoritative. I've never seen him like that in any of the public situations I've encountered him in, but I've heard the same said of him from people that know him personally. I don't doubt that he has good days and bad days from a chemical standpoint, but I also don't doubt that where he feels comfortable, he flourishes. I totally get that. And the more I learn about the life the guy's led the more I'm in awe of his survival skills. Title: Re: Brian's mental history Post by: endofposts on December 27, 2007, 08:22:44 PM I've also wondered about the possibility of a stroke, but I usually end of doubting it for two reasons. First, after the possible stroke, Brian was running over 5 miles a day. That's not a walk in the park, even for non-stroke 45+ year old people. Now, that's still possible after a stroke, look at the New England Patriots Teddy Brusci. He returned to the NFL after a stroke. But Landy was on thin ice at the time, and for him to not find out and/or not disclose it - and, to be working Brian out like that - well, that would've been crossing the line, even for Landy. Second, and this is not a knock at Melinda, so don't attack me! I'm sure Melinda has had Brian checked out from head (and I repeat head) to toe - at least a couple of times. If Brian had a stroke, I believe that she would've disclosed it in an interview. She's been very forthcoming with her comments on Brian's condition. And, come to think about it, so has Brian. The stroke diagnosis would've come out. Melinda also had a special press release when "Imagination" came out that Brian only suffers from depression, and was taking one drug, Luvox, for that condition. Brian told TV Guide, of all magazines, that he takes not less than four drugs for his mental conditions, including at least one antipsychotic drug, as well as an anti-seizure medication. I don't know if Melinda is the be-all, tell-all person for Brian's condition, whatever it is. That's fine, though it might be better for her to say nothing at all than underplay the severity of Brian's problems. Title: Re: Brian's mental history Post by: MBE on December 27, 2007, 10:36:06 PM When I spoke to Brian in 1999 he was very nice, and answered all my questions without too much of a struggle. He was a little brief but his memory was pretty good. I think he felt comfortable with me, and I felt that way about him. Let's just say I was happily surprised by his lucidity. Yet seeing Brian at the Kennedy honors was kind of scary. Perhaps he was nervous but I just thought in my mind how different he had been in 1976 at the Rock Awards and 1977 at the Grammy's. There his eyes were focused, he seemed in the moments, even exhibted humor and warmth. Then you go back even earlier to all the clips and home movies from 62-71 and he seems like such a normal fun loving guy. I can't help but be sad, even though I am happy he is here. I just feel bad because most people have no way of understanding why he acts like he does now at times. It just makes me sad that he lost so much of his personality.
Title: Re: Brian's mental history Post by: Doo Dah on December 28, 2007, 12:33:22 AM Beyond the music and its' majesty, I think that many of us could admit that the personal traumas and dramas in Brian's life play a role in our obsession with his career. I'm fortunate to have seen every US tour since the first, having even obtained an autograph (pictured) at the Cleveland Smile show, yet I've seen many instances where I've been both exhilarated and saddened by his fragile state. Such as the post-show autograph session; we were standing in a long line, and someone in his crew was instructing him to smile for photos whenever a fan handed someone a camera for a quick snap. It was almost reminiscent of a Landy-era commando instructing him how and when to react. For pete's sake, he just finished a show and now he's supposed to smile and play the genial host before a long line of fans. I was happy to get the autograph, but in a way I almost felt complicent in the charade when someone snapped the two of us together. I said a few words to him, but I didn't get the feeling that he heard me or was in the moment at all.
What was really telling was when I was fortunate to see the stripped down 6-piece version of the band at the very intimate Red Rock Casino outside of Vancouver this past August. Brian was reaaaly loose and into it - cracking wise with the audience and truly enjoying his stage time. Interestingly enough however, you could see and feel his energy drop when he returned for the Thursday night encore - he was almost another person, very down and kind of mailing it in (ala GIOMH). Having seen Thursday's show, I decided to return to Friday's show as well, and the energy level was back way up, and Brian remained that way throughout the evening, even clowning around a bit on stage during the curtain call. I'm glad I saw the Friday show, since it placed a fitting coda on my two day's worth of concerts. Not being a physician nor playing one on tv, I could only guess that he experiences peaks and valleys and his medication while helpful is still an inexact science. When he's into it, he's INTO it but when you throw in lights, cameras and presidents he's liable to shut down and withdraw. I too was so proud of his honor, but saddened at the same time since I would have loved to see him joking with Martin and 'reacting' to the show. Such a puzzle. Like a rubik's cube, you can't solve it! Title: Re: Brian's mental history Post by: MBE on December 28, 2007, 12:43:18 AM It is such a puzzle and you know the "truth" we are told about Brian today isn't the whole story. Yet in some respects this doesn't matter. He is still making some very good music and I just hope his moments of personal happiness aren't few and far between.
Title: Re: Brian's mental history Post by: Fun Is In on December 28, 2007, 05:30:20 AM I had the opportunity to ask someone who has been a practicing audilogist for 30+ years and has met a lot of hearing impaired or deaf people if they were familiar with people compensating for one sided hearing loss by talking out of the side of their mouth. They said "no, never" and thought the concept rather amusing. That doesn't disprove the theory, but it does cast some doubt on it.
Title: Re: Brian's mental history Post by: Amy B. on December 28, 2007, 08:29:10 AM Point being, it was one on one, in a non-threatening environment that he felt comfortable in, and a situation he was in control of, so he could relax and be himself and more than that, be authoritative. I've never seen him like that in any of the public situations I've encountered him in, but I've heard the same said of him from people that know him personally. I don't doubt that he has good days and bad days from a chemical standpoint, but I also don't doubt that where he feels comfortable, he flourishes. I totally get that. And the more I learn about the life the guy's led the more I'm in awe of his survival skills. Yes, this is the point I was trying to make. I have never met Brian, but I got a Katrina phone call from him. His call came early and I wasn't ready with a question. I was also very nervous. I asked him a fairly bad question on the spot that elicited a five-word answer. He was so, so kind and gracious about it and must have sensed that I didn't have my act together, because he asked if I had another question. This was not a person who was afraid to have a conversation or was being forced into talking. On the other hand, I think Brian was decidedly uncomfortable at the KC Honors. Maybe he was having a bad day, or maybe the situation was just too much for him. I will again point out that he cracked a smile a couple of times and did seem moved at times (look at his reaction to the Libera performance again.) Hopefully he was able to enjoy it and what it meant in retrospect. Another thing: Brian has been to awards shows in recent years, and we don't know how he acts during awards shows in general because the camera is not constantly on him. This could just be the way he is at long shows that require a good attention span and put the spotlight on him. Title: Re: Brian's mental history Post by: southbay on December 28, 2007, 08:34:32 AM As many suspect, Brian quite possibly did suffer a stroke. However, don't forget that there are instances of him talking out of the side of his mouth in a VERY pronounced manner as early as '76 or '77. All you have to do is go back to the American Band video (which is possibly incorporating the It's OK footage) for clear evidence. Then, for whatever reason, he seemed to stop this tick for some time. It seems to appear again rather noticeably at least by 1983, then maybe disappears again in the mid 80's only to resurface yet again.
Title: Re: Brian's mental history Post by: Andrew G. Doe on December 28, 2007, 08:35:37 AM When I spoke to Brian in 1999 he was very nice, and answered all my questions without too much of a struggle. He was a little brief but his memory was pretty good. I think he felt comfortable with me, and I felt that way about him. Let's just say I was happily surprised by his lucidity. Yet seeing Brian at the Kennedy honors was kind of scary. Perhaps he was nervous but I just thought in my mind how different he had been in 1976 at the Rock Awards and 1977 at the Grammy's. There his eyes were focused, he seemed in the moments, even exhibted humor and warmth. Then you go back even earlier to all the clips and home movies from 62-71 and he seems like such a normal fun loving guy. I can't help but be sad, even though I am happy he is here. I just feel bad because most people have no way of understanding why he acts like he does now at times. It just makes me sad that he lost so much of his personality. I've met Brian several times over the last 20-odd years, in varying situations, ranging from the social, through 'work' (i.e studio) to the post-gig meet & greets, and in that time I've seen all facets of him from regualr (and hugely funny) guy to near-zombie. Hard as this may seem, Brian is usually at his worst in the meets - he's just done a gig, he's tired and the last thing he really wants to do is shake hands with XX strangers. But he does it, because he knows it's expected of him. Only once have I personally seen him come alive during these ordeals, and that was when someone with evident physical and neurological problems came up to him. In an instant he opened up and was compassion itself. It was very touching. In the studio, I've seen a man immersed in his music and thus freed from socialising - many would say this is the 'real' Brian Wilson. It's something everyone should see. And finally, in a social, or semi-social setting, surrounded by family and trusted friends, I've experienced the Brian we all wish he could be all the time - relaxed, chatty, funny and possessed of an incredible memory. It was at once both heartening and chastening. But mostly it was just plain wonderful to see. Title: Re: Brian's mental history Post by: the captain on December 28, 2007, 08:36:17 AM Go to any high school or college speech class and see how people look when they're asked to simply stand in front of a dozen to two dozen people and speak. Being noticed in public scares most people. It's an unnatural situation to be so conspicuous.
While I have no problem speaking, personally, I'm willing to bet I'd look like an absolute idiot* if I were dressed up, placed in a seat of honor, forced to watch a show in tribute to me and knew I was being watched the entire time. It's not hard to see why Brian Wilson might have looked uncomfortable during the show. *Some people might want to note that I'm prone to this anyway. Title: Re: Brian's mental history Post by: Sheriff John Stone on December 28, 2007, 09:45:39 AM This post is all over the place. I apologize in advance.
It's possible (likely?) that Brian had taken some medication - perfectly legal, medically sound, appropriate - before the Kennedy Honors show to calm him down and/or keep him at an even keel for three hours. Thus, the lack of expressions. Of course we are speculating; not being doctors or having examined Brian we couldn't possibly know for sure. But, some COMMON SENSE can be applied here. For me, it goes all the way back to the Mike Douglas Show in 1976, the first time I saw Brian on TV (unless it was the NBC TV special). What I saw was a very troubled and damaged man. How troubled and how damaged I had no way of knowing. And, it basically NEVER CHANGED. There have been periods/instances that have been better than others. But, the damage was pretty much done by 1976. The rest are just spurts of more damage and some recovery. But there was no cure. I've also always believed that Brian's music - or the lack of quality of the music post 1976 -is a DIRECT consequence of his illness/damage. I don't subscribe to the lack of interest/not caring/sabotaging the group/boredom theories. As always - including the 1962-1966 period - what you hear is a real reflection of Brian the person. Something's wrong. And, finally, again, if Brian had a stroke, somehow, IT WOULD'VE GOTTEN OUT. We would know about it. Somehow. Title: Re: Brian's mental history Post by: pixletwin on December 28, 2007, 09:58:53 AM In the Sawyer interview with Landy and Brian, did anyone else pick up on the mystery person being interviewed in shadows as Melinda?
This has been a very interesting thread. I especially appreciated AGD's comments about different aspects of Brian's personality in different situations. Title: Re: Brian's mental history Post by: The Goat on December 28, 2007, 10:13:21 AM While I have no problem speaking, personally, I'm willing to bet I'd look like an absolute idiot* if I were dressed up, placed in a seat of honor, forced to watch a show in tribute to me and knew I was being watched the entire time. It's not hard to see why Brian Wilson might have looked uncomfortable during the show. *Some people might want to note that I'm prone to this anyway. Love the disclaimer (Bwaa-haaa!)...and totally agree with it's accompanying paragraph. Brian's mercifully modest and not accustomed to long praisefests. Remember his brief, cut-to-the-chase acceptance speech at the Musicares Tribute? Title: Re: Brian's mental history Post by: endofposts on December 28, 2007, 11:24:14 AM As for the stroke speculation: hasn't even Brian himself said publicly that he suffers from brain damage related to long-term drug and alcohol abuse? Since the damage from a stroke is brain damage, maybe his non-stroke-caused brain damage manifests itself in some ways as if he had had a stroke. (I hope that makes sense.)
Title: Re: Brian's mental history Post by: Sheriff John Stone on December 28, 2007, 12:30:38 PM As for the stroke speculation: hasn't even Brian himself said publicly that he suffers from brain damage related to long-term drug and alcohol abuse? Since the damage from a stroke is brain damage, maybe his non-stroke-caused brain damage manifests itself in some ways as if he had had a stroke. (I hope that makes sense.) That I will agree with. Even though brain damage from drug use is different from an actual stoke, it does LOOK like he had a stroke. Signed, Dr. John Stone :) Title: Re: Brian's mental history Post by: endofposts on December 28, 2007, 01:38:39 PM As for the stroke speculation: hasn't even Brian himself said publicly that he suffers from brain damage related to long-term drug and alcohol abuse? Since the damage from a stroke is brain damage, maybe his non-stroke-caused brain damage manifests itself in some ways as if he had had a stroke. (I hope that makes sense.) That I will agree with. Even though brain damage from drug use is different from an actual stoke, it does LOOK like he had a stroke. Signed, Dr. John Stone :) LOL, I'm also not really a doctor, and I don't even play one on TV! If Brian's drug use was anywhere near where it was hinted at in bios, he might be in uncharted territory, so new rules might apply. Also, posters here have said he suffers from tardive dyskinesia from using old-type psych meds. The newer types of psych meds also have side effects that mimic some symptoms of Parkinson's disease, including having a shuffling walk and having a face that can look like an inexpressive mask (sound familiar?). I'm sure Brian has been on all types of different medications over the years, and the side effects can stay after the medications are stopped. It's just lucky he's alive; I'm sure he and his family can live with any relatively minor side effects. Title: Re: Brian's mental history Post by: Chris Brown on December 28, 2007, 01:48:04 PM I had the opportunity to ask someone who has been a practicing audilogist for 30+ years and has met a lot of hearing impaired or deaf people if they were familiar with people compensating for one sided hearing loss by talking out of the side of their mouth. They said "no, never" and thought the concept rather amusing. That doesn't disprove the theory, but it does cast some doubt on it. That's really interesting DoveNest...I can't remember where Brian gave this explanation (maybe his "autobiography"), but I've seen a few pictures of him when he was younger talking out of the side of his mouth. One comes to mind where he is in the studio wearing a blue hawaiian shirt, you can see his mouth leaning to one side. Might have been from the Lei'd sessions in '67. Maybe I'm just seeing things, who knows? I certainly defer to what the guy you asked said, but I wonder why else Brian might have been talking like this at such a young age? Title: Re: Brian's mental history Post by: sherryluvsbrian on December 28, 2007, 03:08:28 PM In the Sawyer interview with Landy and Brian, did anyone else pick up on the mystery person being interviewed in shadows as Melinda?
I sure did. I'm glad I'm not the only one who noticed It was melinda. Didn't they say the woman in the shadows worked for landy or a company of some sort. Melinda was not around at that time of brians life. Very strange :o Title: Re: Brian's mental history Post by: MBE on December 28, 2007, 08:20:48 PM This post is all over the place. I apologize in advance. It's possible (likely?) that Brian had taken some medication - perfectly legal, medically sound, appropriate - before the Kennedy Honors show to calm him down and/or keep him at an even keel for three hours. Thus, the lack of expressions. Of course we are speculating; not being doctors or having examined Brian we couldn't possibly know for sure. But, some COMMON SENSE can be applied here. For me, it goes all the way back to the Mike Douglas Show in 1976, the first time I saw Brian on TV (unless it was the NBC TV special). What I saw was a very troubled and damaged man. How troubled and how damaged I had no way of knowing. And, it basically NEVER CHANGED. There have been periods/instances that have been better than others. But, the damage was pretty much done by 1976. The rest are just spurts of more damage and some recovery. But there was no cure. I've also always believed that Brian's music - or the lack of quality of the music post 1976 -is a DIRECT consequence of his illness/damage. I don't subscribe to the lack of interest/not caring/sabotaging the group/boredom theories. As always - including the 1962-1966 period - what you hear is a real reflection of Brian the person. Something's wrong. And, finally, again, if Brian had a stroke, somehow, IT WOULD'VE GOTTEN OUT. We would know about it. Somehow. Very good points made here about Brian from 1976 on. It's just sad that he was so much better on Mike Douglas then now even though there was already noticable damage then. Btw look at the Jack Benny sketch from 1965 Brian talks out of the side of his mouth even then. The difference is his vocal intonations and reactions to what's going on around him are normal. Title: Re: Brian's mental history Post by: carl r on December 29, 2007, 02:32:02 AM I find this thread very interesting. I note that Brian's friends from the 60s, who shared their drugs in the first place with him, don't appear to have had the same obvious behavioral problems. Same goes for most of the other rock stars from the period. The ones who physically survived can now afford the various therapies to keep themselves going. So from what I can tell it was Landy that did much of the damage to Brian.
The problems that Brian's experienced has to be placed in the context of how society deals with any kind of mental illness - being from the UK, I can say this treatment is pretty appalling. People are generally left to wander around most of the day, until something bad happens. As drug use has increased since the 60s the issues raised by Brian Wilson's condition may become much more widespread. Therefore, Brian's comeback in the last few years has positive implications for a lot of people! Title: Re: Brian's mental history Post by: Fun Is In on December 29, 2007, 05:37:11 AM You can see Brian singing out of the side of his mouth in black-and-white video of concerts from 65 or earlier (maybe the TAMI show?)......so it does go back a long way. There's probably a long list of things that can lead to this. The ones that come to mind for me (from what I've seen inn people I know) are personal quirk or weakness of the facial muscles (on the side that doesn't go up when smiling or singing) due to nerve or brain fault.
You'd really have to study him closely in old video to see how early, how much, how often and in what circumstances there is facial assymetry to get a better picture of things. Title: Re: Brian's mental history Post by: Quincy on December 29, 2007, 05:51:45 AM In Paul Williams book...Paul and David A. say he always talked out of the side of his mouth in the sixties
Title: Re: Brian's mental history Post by: 37!ws on August 07, 2008, 12:58:50 PM Sorry to add to this already-long and already-old thread, but...CARNIE talks out of the side of her mouth sometimes, too, so it's probably some kind of hereditary habit...
Now...the clincher...do we have evidence of Carl or Dennis ever doing that?? You see, we notice it from Brian because we EXPECT him to be quirky! Title: Re: Brian's mental history Post by: Aegir on August 07, 2008, 01:16:29 PM I never noticed that from Carnie, and I do expect her to be quirky. I mean, she has a sexual addiction to chocolate. I'm sure if she took drugs she'd be just as weird as her pop.
Title: Re: Brian's mental history Post by: Amy B. on August 07, 2008, 02:33:43 PM I never noticed that from Carnie, and I do expect her to be quirky. I mean, she has a sexual addiction to chocolate. I'm sure if she took drugs she'd be just as weird as her pop. She _did_ take drugs, at least marijuana, for years, according to her. If you believe everything she says, she also has an addition to food (pretty obvious) and alcohol. And she suffered from post-partem depression and possibly depression at other times in her life. I'm kind of inclined to believe her, given her family history. She doesn't seem to be as weird as Brian, but she does seem to share a few personality traits with him. I never noticed her talking out of the side of her mouth, though. I thought I read somewhere that Audree used to do it. Title: Re: Brian's mental history Post by: Aegir on August 07, 2008, 02:43:53 PM Yeah, but marijuana doesn't mess with your brain anywhere near as much as things like acid or cocaine or whatever perscription stuff Brian was on during the Landy years do. Brian would be a pretty normal guy (comparitively) if he only smoked pot for a few years and never did anything else.
Title: Re: Brian's mental history Post by: jmc on August 07, 2008, 09:20:07 PM Actually, I think Audree talked out of the side of her mouth too. At least when she was older. I recall from one of the biographies where she's interviewed that she spoke out of the side of her mouth a bit. Maybe its on that side of the family and Carl and Dennis take after Murry in that regard.
Title: Re: Brian's mental history Post by: Jay on August 08, 2008, 12:16:08 AM I just saw something on TV not to long ago, that kind of fits in this topic. In 1995, there was a documentary that aired on TV called "The History Of Rock&Roll". I can't remember the exact month it aired, but I do remember that the program was dedicated to Jerry Garcia, who had just died. The program was a series of hour long "episodes" that lasted for about a week, I think. In one episode, Brian is interviewed and he slurrs his speech so badly that you can hardly understand what he's even saying.
Title: Re: Brian's mental history Post by: lance on August 08, 2008, 12:45:21 AM In the brief interview on the Ready Steady Go! performance on youtube, Brian is talking out of the side of his mouth. He was young then and it looks okay on his fleshy, youthful face. As an older man it looks kind of funny, but I think it has been there all along.
I had a friend who was also a brilliant artist(though not famous) and he went crazy and was eventually diagnosed with schizophrenia, which later was changed to bipolar disorder. He saw visions of hell and became convinced that if he didn't mutilate himself, he would go there. He ended up cutting off his arms. I o nly knew him on medication and he was very kind, lucid, a bit odd but cool. When I imagine Brian, I think of my friend. Anyway, he was convinced that hard drugs(specifically ecstasy taken in the late seventies, early eighties when it was still very new) was what kicked his mental problems into full gear. I think most people can do drugs like acid and so on and come out of it more or less normal, but I think it's possible that for the unlucky few like Brian or my friend they trigger a psychotic reaction that just just might have stayed dormant otherwise. Title: Re: Brian's mental history Post by: adamghost on August 08, 2008, 01:02:26 AM I thought the most logical explanation for the side-mouth thing was Brian's unilateral deafness? It would be a natural thing to aim your speech toward the side of your head you could hear out of.
Title: Re: Brian's mental history Post by: Ron on August 08, 2008, 04:45:59 AM I've seen Carnie speak out of the side of her mouth. If Audree did it as well later on in life, it's not hard to know why. They were both subconsciously mimicking Brian. People do that all the time, I find myself doing some of the quirky things my friends do sometimes when I'm near them. For instance if I have a friend who's really quiet, I'm probably going to speak a littler quieter when I'm around them. If I have a friend who uses a lot of arm movements when they talk I might be more prone to do that a little bit when I'm around them. It's completely natural.
I know a little girl who's mother has a severe limp because she had her hip replaced. She's pretty young, about 35 or so, and this little 6 or 7 year old girl walks with the same kind of limp that her mother does. There's nothing wrong with her, she's just used to seeing her mother walk that way so it's natural for her to imitate it. As for the audiologist who's never heard of somebody that's unilaterally deaf speaking out of the side of their mouth, how does he explain Brian's case then? Doesn't seem that hard to understand to me. If I was 5 or whatever or born deaf on one side I can see where I'd develop that quirk, even if it doesn't make you hear better, you might TRY to speak that way to make it more audible and perhaps it's just a habit that stuck, even if the audiologist says it's useless to speak that way. Finally, like always, we have to understand that Brian has mental illnesses. Ask your audiologist friend if somebody who's mentally ill might try speaking out of the side of their mouth to better understand their voice. Title: Re: Brian's mental history Post by: Fun Is In on August 08, 2008, 09:28:52 AM "As for the audiologist who's never heard of somebody that's unilaterally deaf speaking out of the side of their mouth, how does he explain Brian's case then? Doesn't seem that hard to understand to me. If I was 5 or whatever or born deaf on one side I can see where I'd develop that quirk, even if it doesn't make you hear better, you might TRY to speak that way to make it more audible and perhaps it's just a habit that stuck, even if the audiologist says it's useless to speak that way."
Well, that's a post hoc argument. That doesn't make it wrong, just suspect. Do you know of other cases of people with unilateral hearing loss who speak out of the sides of their mouth? If not, it would make sense to look for another explanation in Brian's case. You MAY be right, but I wouldn't bet on it. Title: Re: Brian's mental history Post by: 37!ws on August 08, 2008, 10:19:02 AM Y'know, it just occurred to me...my mother, like Brian, is about 95% deaf in her right ear (and had/has an abusive father -- the man's still alive, which is why I say "has," but he hasn't abused her in, oh...about forty years, which is why I say "had" - and it makes me wonder if she truly was born that way or got that way later on and just doesn't remember for sure -- she says she was born that way), and she tends to talk normally, although sometimes when she emphasizes things, she does sort of "favor" one side of her mouth...next time I see her, I'll make a note of it...of course, I will have a bit of trouble explaining why I'm taking notes on her speech patterns...if anything, I'll just say that I'm doing a study of Chicago accents...
Title: Re: Brian's mental history Post by: The Heartical Don on August 08, 2008, 10:33:58 AM I don't want to interfere with all the interesting hypothesizing going on here, but...
isn't there a more down-to-earth explanation possible? Perhaps Bri suffered a broken jaw in his youth? Or had unilaterally have some molars pulled in his early adolescence (it happens, you know)? That would be a perfectly plausible explanation for talking with one corner of his mouth being a bit more down, and the other seemingly being used for expressing language more... Title: Re: Brian's mental history Post by: Andrew G. Doe on August 08, 2008, 10:44:45 AM "As for the audiologist who's never heard of somebody that's unilaterally deaf speaking out of the side of their mouth, how does he explain Brian's case then? Doesn't seem that hard to understand to me. If I was 5 or whatever or born deaf on one side I can see where I'd develop that quirk, even if it doesn't make you hear better, you might TRY to speak that way to make it more audible and perhaps it's just a habit that stuck, even if the audiologist says it's useless to speak that way." Well, that's a post hoc argument. That doesn't make it wrong, just suspect. Do you know of other cases of people with unilateral hearing loss who speak out of the sides of their mouth? If not, it would make sense to look for another explanation in Brian's case. You MAY be right, but I wouldn't bet on it. My father was totally deaf in one ear (unlike Brian, who has residual hearing (maybe 5%) in one) from a very early age, and he never spoke out of one side of his mouth. Ever. Title: Re: Brian's mental history Post by: Andrew G. Doe on August 08, 2008, 10:49:51 AM OK, so it's Wikipedia and all that that entails, but as we're all discussing Brian's problems, here's their description of tardive dyskinesia:
"Tardive dyskinesia is characterized by repetitive, involuntary, purposeless movements. Features of the disorder may include grimacing, tongue protrusion, lip smacking, puckering and pursing of the lips, and rapid eye blinking. Rapid movements of the arms, legs, and trunk may also occur. Impaired movements of the fingers may appear as though the patient is playing an invisible guitar or piano. For comparison, patients with Parkinson's disease have difficulty moving, while patients with tardive dyskinesia have difficulty not moving. Other closely related neurological disorders have been recognized as variants of tardive dyskinesia. Tardive akathisia involves painful feelings of inner tension and anxiety and a compulsive drive to move the body. In the extreme, the individual undergoes internal torture and can no longer sit still." That sure made me stop and go "Jesus..." Title: Re: Brian's mental history Post by: No. Fourteen on August 08, 2008, 12:04:21 PM "As for the audiologist who's never heard of somebody that's unilaterally deaf speaking out of the side of their mouth, how does he explain Brian's case then? Doesn't seem that hard to understand to me. If I was 5 or whatever or born deaf on one side I can see where I'd develop that quirk, even if it doesn't make you hear better, you might TRY to speak that way to make it more audible and perhaps it's just a habit that stuck, even if the audiologist says it's useless to speak that way." Well, that's a post hoc argument. That doesn't make it wrong, just suspect. Do you know of other cases of people with unilateral hearing loss who speak out of the sides of their mouth? If not, it would make sense to look for another explanation in Brian's case. You MAY be right, but I wouldn't bet on it. What about Rob Lowe? He's deaf in one ear, and has some kind of physical tick when he speaks. (I assume some are asking "Who the hell is Rob Lowe?") Title: Re: Brian's mental history Post by: Fun Is In on August 08, 2008, 02:31:38 PM OK, so it's Wikipedia and all that that entails, but as we're all discussing Brian's problems, here's their description of tardive dyskinesia: "Tardive dyskinesia is characterized by repetitive, involuntary, purposeless movements. Features of the disorder may include grimacing, tongue protrusion, lip smacking, puckering and pursing of the lips, and rapid eye blinking. Rapid movements of the arms, legs, and trunk may also occur. Impaired movements of the fingers may appear as though the patient is playing an invisible guitar or piano. For comparison, patients with Parkinson's disease have difficulty moving, while patients with tardive dyskinesia have difficulty not moving. Other closely related neurological disorders have been recognized as variants of tardive dyskinesia. Tardive akathisia involves painful feelings of inner tension and anxiety and a compulsive drive to move the body. In the extreme, the individual undergoes internal torture and can no longer sit still." That sure made me stop and go "Jesus..." I've met some people with both conditions. It can get pretty dire all right. Not all are full-blown cases like the descriptions, thankfully. Title: Re: Brian's mental history Post by: Ron on August 08, 2008, 03:30:41 PM "As for the audiologist who's never heard of somebody that's unilaterally deaf speaking out of the side of their mouth, how does he explain Brian's case then? Doesn't seem that hard to understand to me. If I was 5 or whatever or born deaf on one side I can see where I'd develop that quirk, even if it doesn't make you hear better, you might TRY to speak that way to make it more audible and perhaps it's just a habit that stuck, even if the audiologist says it's useless to speak that way." Well, that's a post hoc argument. That doesn't make it wrong, just suspect. Do you know of other cases of people with unilateral hearing loss who speak out of the sides of their mouth? If not, it would make sense to look for another explanation in Brian's case. You MAY be right, but I wouldn't bet on it. My father was totally deaf in one ear (unlike Brian, who has residual hearing (maybe 5%) in one) from a very early age, and he never spoke out of one side of his mouth. Ever. Was your father mentally ill? Brian's certainly does many things most people don't. Thanks for the link about Dyskinesia, that's interesting info. Title: Re: Brian's mental history Post by: Andrew G. Doe on August 08, 2008, 09:48:07 PM "As for the audiologist who's never heard of somebody that's unilaterally deaf speaking out of the side of their mouth, how does he explain Brian's case then? Doesn't seem that hard to understand to me. If I was 5 or whatever or born deaf on one side I can see where I'd develop that quirk, even if it doesn't make you hear better, you might TRY to speak that way to make it more audible and perhaps it's just a habit that stuck, even if the audiologist says it's useless to speak that way." Well, that's a post hoc argument. That doesn't make it wrong, just suspect. Do you know of other cases of people with unilateral hearing loss who speak out of the sides of their mouth? If not, it would make sense to look for another explanation in Brian's case. You MAY be right, but I wouldn't bet on it. My father was totally deaf in one ear (unlike Brian, who has residual hearing (maybe 5%) in one) from a very early age, and he never spoke out of one side of his mouth. Ever. Was your father mentally ill? Brian's certainly does many things most people don't. Thanks for the link about Dyskinesia, that's interesting info. Nope, all the lights were on and everyone was home. ;D Title: Re: Brian's mental history Post by: endofposts on August 09, 2008, 01:30:05 AM Maybe Brian's tendency to talk out of one side and his deafness are related because he has nerve damage? His deafness was diagnosed as nerve damage-caused, and the facial nerves branch out of some of the nerves related to hearing. Maybe the particular nerve that's damaged that caused the deafness branches to the facial muscle on that side of his face.
Title: Re: Brian's mental history Post by: Fun Is In on August 09, 2008, 05:43:55 AM Maybe Brian's tendency to talk out of one side and his deafness are related because he has nerve damage? His deafness was diagnosed as nerve damage-caused, and the facial nerves branch out of some of the nerves related to hearing. Maybe the particular nerve that's damaged that caused the deafness branches to the facial muscle on that side of his face. If that was the case, he'd be unable to produce a symmetrical smile. It would be lop-sided. He still can produce a symmetrical smile as we see in the recent photos. Title: Re: Brian's mental history Post by: endofposts on August 09, 2008, 02:04:35 PM Maybe Brian's tendency to talk out of one side and his deafness are related because he has nerve damage? His deafness was diagnosed as nerve damage-caused, and the facial nerves branch out of some of the nerves related to hearing. Maybe the particular nerve that's damaged that caused the deafness branches to the facial muscle on that side of his face. If that was the case, he'd be unable to produce a symmetrical smile. It would be lop-sided. He still can produce a symmetrical smile as we see in the recent photos. But I have seen a couple of photos where he had a lopsided smile, where he's smiling on one side and the other side of his mouth doesn't. It might be more of a weakness on one side than total damage. What caused it is not clear, or whether it is related to the hearing loss, or it's just a coincidence it's on the same side. Title: Re: Brian's mental history Post by: Wirestone on August 09, 2008, 02:29:59 PM (http://www.eventsinbournemouth.com/custom/040702_brianWilson_vl.widec.jpg)
Title: Re: Brian's mental history Post by: Roger Ryan on August 09, 2008, 05:18:26 PM We also know Brian's right cheekbone was damaged. He had an implant put in in the late 80s while under Landy's care (I think this was one of the times where the surgical team recognized he was on way too much medication), but had it removed in '93 or '94. Seems to me that this could have an effect on one's smile or other mouth movements.
Title: Re: Brian's mental history Post by: Andrew G. Doe on August 10, 2008, 01:14:26 AM (http://www.eventsinbournemouth.com/custom/040702_brianWilson_vl.widec.jpg) That ain't a smile, that's Brian wanting to get the photoshoot over and done with. :) Title: Re: Brian's mental history Post by: Fun Is In on August 10, 2008, 11:02:44 AM (http://www.eventsinbournemouth.com/custom/040702_brianWilson_vl.widec.jpg) Agree with AGD's comment about that particular facial expression :-\ The other problem with the theory of the crooked mouth aiming toward the deafer ear due to damage to two nerves (on the same side) is that if the nerve damage was on the same side for both of the nerves involved, the deafer side would also show facial muscle weakness (droopiness), not strength (pulled farther out on that side). Title: Re: Brian's mental history Post by: Andrew G. Doe on August 10, 2008, 11:51:59 AM Plus, unless they reversed the negative on this shot - that's the wrong ear. ;D
Title: Re: Brian's mental history Post by: Jay on August 10, 2008, 08:12:05 PM I can do a lopsided smile too, and I'm 100% mentally normal(I think :lol). It all depends on the mood the person is in. There have been many times where I've had my picture taken, and done exactly what Brian is doing in the above picture.
Title: Re: Brian's mental history Post by: Mark H. on August 11, 2008, 07:18:41 PM A couple of points:
I'm a physician and I've seen lots of TD over the years and Brian doesn't have it. Brian very well may have suffered an anoxic brain injury or small stroke over the years. We don't know how many ambulance runs for unresponsiveness he's been subject too over the years; however, I doubt his current medical problems are lasting effects directly related to any medications Landy may have given him. Landy's a great villain (no pun intended) but name me a psychiatric medication that can permanently "damage" your brain. Brian does have obvious anxiety issues in public settings. On the other hand, he looks like an elderly mentally ill patient who's just sort of reached the "burn-out" phase of his illness. If you don't believe me visit a homeless shelter or geriatric inpatient psychiatric unit - you'll see lots of Brian look alikes. Most mentally ill patients aren't multimillionaires. In the end I think it is a bit creepy to discuss the guy's medical condition on a public forum. Really it's his business and no-one else's....and yeah I'm guilty for chiming in but there is a lot of misinformed wild speculation going on here and I think it deserves a generalized response. Title: Re: Brian's mental history Post by: Amy B. on August 11, 2008, 08:05:55 PM there is a lot of misinformed wild speculation going on here and I think it deserves a generalized response. Heh heh. Misinformed wild speculation is the unofficial name of this and many other boards! :-D Title: Re: Brian's mental history Post by: Fun Is In on August 12, 2008, 07:25:32 PM "name me a psychiatric medication that can permanently "damage" your brain."
If someone takes enough Haldol (or certain other old antipsychotics) they *may* get permanent TD, no? I'm not saying this relates to BW, not saying he has TD; it's just an answer to your challenge. Title: Re: Brian's mental history Post by: Mark H. on August 13, 2008, 04:23:28 AM Cite me a case.
Years ago when I was in training we used massive doses of Haldol. You can't really "overdose" on it. In some cases you can develop Neuroleptic Malignant Syndrome - usually you die if you get this disorder. It is idiopathic and not dose dependant or dose related. Tardive causes strange tremors, movements, vocalizations, etc. - this is more common and fairly obvious when you see it. I still use a fair amount of Haldol in patients with terminal delirium/psychosis and for nausea. Some of the modern atypical antipsychotics have been linked to strokes in th elderly. They are generally well tolerated and safe in younger patients. On the other hand, massive doses of street drugs like cocaine and even alcohol have been known to cause brain damage, ie "organic brain syndrome". Obviously I don't know anything about Brian Wilson's medical history. Title: Re: Brian's mental history Post by: Andrew G. Doe on August 13, 2008, 10:58:01 AM Tardive causes strange tremors, movements, vocalizations, etc. - this is more common and fairly obvious when you see it. "Features of the disorder may include grimacing, tongue protrusion, lip smacking, puckering and pursing of the lips, and rapid eye blinking. Rapid movements of the arms, legs, and trunk may also occur. Impaired movements of the fingers may appear as though the patient is playing an invisible guitar or piano." Sound like anyone most of us know ? Title: Re: Brian's mental history Post by: Mark H. on August 13, 2008, 06:44:11 PM Tardive causes strange tremors, movements, vocalizations, etc. - this is more common and fairly obvious when you see it. "Features of the disorder may include grimacing, tongue protrusion, lip smacking, puckering and pursing of the lips, and rapid eye blinking. Rapid movements of the arms, legs, and trunk may also occur. Impaired movements of the fingers may appear as though the patient is playing an invisible guitar or piano." Sound like anyone most of us know ? Reading about it and seeing it are two very different animals. Brian doesn't have TD. Title: Re: Brian's mental history Post by: endofposts on August 13, 2008, 08:35:48 PM Tardive causes strange tremors, movements, vocalizations, etc. - this is more common and fairly obvious when you see it. "Features of the disorder may include grimacing, tongue protrusion, lip smacking, puckering and pursing of the lips, and rapid eye blinking. Rapid movements of the arms, legs, and trunk may also occur. Impaired movements of the fingers may appear as though the patient is playing an invisible guitar or piano." Sound like anyone most of us know ? Reading about it and seeing it are two very different animals. Brian doesn't have TD. But Brian does appear to have some odd movements/facial expressions/tics at times. I noticed that when he did Larry King some time ago, and have noticed it since in other TV interviews. Whatever is causing it might be relatively mild compared to what some people suffer from, but it's there, whatever the cause is. Title: Re: Brian's mental history Post by: Wilsonista on August 13, 2008, 08:38:37 PM So you're refuting Peter Reum's claims?
Title: Re: Brian's mental history Post by: STE on August 14, 2008, 12:38:15 AM Impaired movements of the fingers may appear as though the patient is playing an invisible guitar or piano." Sound like anyone most of us know ? Well, not Brian: the piano is there but he doesn't play it.. ;D Title: Re: Brian's mental history Post by: Jay on August 14, 2008, 01:16:04 AM Impaired movements of the fingers may appear as though the patient is playing an invisible guitar or piano." Sound like anyone most of us know ? Well, not Brian: the piano is there but he doesn't play it.. ;D Title: Re: Brian's mental history Post by: Jay on August 14, 2008, 01:19:14 AM On another note: Isn't a symptom of TD constant movment, and not being able to sit still? There are several examples on YouTube of Brian constantly rocking back and forth during interviews.
Title: Re: Brian's mental history Post by: Fun Is In on August 14, 2008, 10:23:29 AM Cite me a case. Cite you a case? I love a challenge and the literature is just LOADED with data. Haldol has gone more or less generic and isn't given detailed coverage in the most common reference, so I'll direct your attention to the PDR entry for Thiothixene (another antipsychotic) instead. They don't list specific case studies or personal experiences of individual physicians but do say specifically, clearly and without reservation that TD caused by their product, Thiothixene, can be permanent, so feel free if need be to now suggest that the manufacturer has included a make-believe permanent serious side effect of their drug....but then you will have to explain away many studies and statments from the medical professionals at NIH and lay groups like NAMI. This from the NIH: http://www.ninds.nih.gov/disorders/tardive/tardive.htm What is the prognosis? Symptoms of tardive dyskinesia may remain long after discontinuation of neuroleptic drugs; however, with careful management, some symptoms may improve and/or disappear with time. Or that hoary old chestnut, the Merck Manual http://www.merck.com/pubs/mmanual_ha/sec3/ch30/ch30d.html Treatment begins with discontinuing the drug or lowering the dose if possible. Sometimes a different drug can be substituted. After the drug is discontinued, symptoms may lessen, sometimes after worsening temporarily. But they may persist. Studies that include larger numbers of patients, including cases of treatment with Haldol http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18332662?ordinalpos=36&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum FINDINGS: Across 12 trials (n = 28 051, age 39.7 years, 59.7% male, 70.9% white, followed for 463 925 person-years), the annualized tardive dyskinesia incidence was 3.9% for second-generation antipsychotics and 5.5% for first-generation antipsychotics. Stratified by age, annual tardive dyskinesia incidence rates were 0.35% with second-generation antipsychotics in children, 2.98% with second-generation antipsychotics versus 7.7% with first-generation antipsychotics (P < 0.0001) in adults, and 5.2% with second-generation antipsychotics versus 5.2% with first-generation antipsychotics (P = 0.865) in the elderly (based almost exclusively on one retrospective cohort study). In four adult studies (n = 2088, age 41.2 years, 71.2% male, 62.0% white), tardive dyskinesia prevalence rates were 13.1% for second-generation antipsychotics, 15.6% for antipsychotic-free patients, and 32.4% for first-generation antipsychotics (P < 0.0001). SUMMARY: Current evidence supports a lower tardive dyskinesia risk for second-generation antipsychotics than for first-generation antipsychotics. Tardive dyskinesia incidence was higher with second-generation antipsychotics than previously reported, possibly due to recent studies with relatively short mean durations and use of nonstandard tardive dyskinesia definitions. Good enough? No? OK. How about this: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18591121?ordinalpos=11&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum where withdrawal of the offending drug resulted in the disappearance of tardive symptoms of 40/100 patients (in other words, tardive symptoms PERSISTED in 60/100 patients AFTER withdrawal of the offending drug). Or this: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18588359?ordinalpos=12&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum Or this: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18583442?ordinalpos=13&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum where they switched them off Haldol and "improvement" by not remission of TD symptoms. Or this: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18204344?ordinalpos=48&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum Or from the lay group NAMI http://www.nami.org/Content/ContentGroups/Helpline1/Tardive_Dyskinesia.htm TD is often mild and reversible. The percentage of patients who develop severe or irreversible TD is quite low as a proportion of those receiving long-term antipsychotic therapy. There has never been a definitive, validated and widely accepted treatment for TD. Dozens of drugs have been tested over the past 30 years with mixed results at best. The atypical antipsychotic clozapine has been reported to reverse persistent TD after 6-12 months, possibly through gradual "down-regulation" of supersensitive dopamine D2 receptors. Some preliminary reports suggest that other atypical antipsychotics may also help reverse TD. So, in summary: there is plenty of published evidence in the commercial literature, the peer reviewed literature and on the internet that contradicts your claim so I say cite me a study that says that NO first generation antipsychotic EVER induces chronic, persitent or permanent TD and you will win the pissing contest. >:D Title: Re: Brian's mental history Post by: ♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇 on August 14, 2008, 12:18:16 PM So you're refuting Peter Reum's claims? And doesn't Peter work in the same field ? Title: Re: Brian's mental history Post by: Aegir on August 14, 2008, 03:17:45 PM DoveNest, I find it so hard to understand which parts you wrote there and which parts Mark H. wrote, because they're both inside Mark's quote box.
Title: Re: Brian's mental history Post by: Mark H. on August 14, 2008, 05:00:13 PM So you're refuting Peter Reum's claims? And doesn't Peter work in the same field ? I'm not debating nor interested in debating Peter Reum. He's forgotten more about the BB and Brian than I'll ever know. I'm a physician, I prescribe these medicines all the time, I'm intimately familiar with their efficacy and side effects. TD is not a subtle diagnosis. Brian is 60+ years old. Tremors, Parkinsonian tremors, etc. are very common in elderly who take psychotropics. The guy is way too functional for someone with TD. If making a diagnosis was as easy as looking it up on the internet, then I'd be out-of-business. My last word on the topic. thanks for your indulgence http://www.springhillinternalmed.com/ Title: Re: Brian's mental history Post by: Fun Is In on August 14, 2008, 07:20:30 PM DoveNest, I find it so hard to understand which parts you wrote there and which parts Mark H. wrote, because they're both inside Mark's quote box. Sorry, I don't know how that happened. I messed it up somehow. Just the top couple lines were a quote of Mark H. The rest was my answer to his challenge. What it boils down to is that anecdote doesn't trump peer-reviewed science. Peer-reviewed science currently indicates that some first generation antipsychotics cause TD and in some cases it's permanent. Dr. H apparently disagrees with the National Institutes of Health and National Institute of Mental Health on this issue. What can you say to that? Title: Re: Brian's mental history Post by: Fun Is In on August 14, 2008, 07:25:57 PM DoveNest, I find it so hard to understand which parts you wrote there and which parts Mark H. wrote, because they're both inside Mark's quote box. Sorry, I don't know how that happened. I messed it up somehow. Just the top couple lines were a quote of Mark H. The rest was my answer to his challenge. What it boils down to is that anecdote doesn't trump peer-reviewed science. Peer-reviewed science currently indicates that some first generation antipsychotics cause TD and in some cases it's permanent. Dr. H apparently disagrees with the National Institutes of Health and National Institute of Mental Health on this issue. What can you say to that? Mark, congratulations on your recent Board Certification and thanks for your service to hospice patients. That's damned important work. I mean that sincerely. Title: Re: Brian's mental history Post by: Jay on August 14, 2008, 08:27:14 PM I decided to look up TD on YouTube. I found this clip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqsKGTBB8Ag&feature=related Title: Re: Brian's mental history Post by: endofposts on August 14, 2008, 10:01:38 PM Aren't there different generational classes of anti-psychotics? TD is usually associated with the earliest generation of drugs, but there were drugs developed afterwards that are not associated with TD, but do have side effects of their own that are more similar to Parkinsonism (tremors, but not the dramatic movement disorders that TD has). I read that somewhere, but since I'm indeed not a doctor, I don't remember the details. It seems more likely that Brian might have been prescribed the latter generation of drugs while with Landy. By some accounts Landy did prescribe him meds that help control symptoms of Parkinsons at the same time he was taking the psychiatric drugs, and since Brian doesn't have that disease, that might be the reason. So, Brian does not have TD, maybe instead the tremor-type thing that Mark is describing. And not that bad; even Peter Reum has said Brian's own doctor's are happy that he has not had side effects that are too bad relative to what they believe he was taking.
Title: Re: Brian's mental history Post by: Wirestone on August 14, 2008, 10:17:21 PM It's also possible the Brian was displaying TD-like symptoms in the late 80s early 90s but that the removal of Landy and that drug regimen also eliminated those symptoms (the documentation above suggests that TD can diminish once the drugs are gone). We have a lot less footage of Brian from that era then we do of him in the last 10 years.
Title: Re: Brian's mental history Post by: Poprocks on August 19, 2008, 07:19:29 PM But Brian does appear to have some odd movements/facial expressions/tics at times. I noticed that when he did Larry King some time ago, and have noticed it since in other TV interviews. Whatever is causing it might be relatively mild compared to what some people suffer from, but it's there, whatever the cause is. Hmm, yeah, and I've always thought his movements in this video (from 1967) were a little odd, especially around the 2:00 mark or so: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmtHmzwmJf4 Title: Re: Brian's mental history Post by: The Heartical Don on August 20, 2008, 02:23:02 AM Call me Ishmael, but after reading this thread I feel like I am a psychiatrist myself.
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