The Smiley Smile Message Board

It occurred to me earlier today as I was thinking about the changes in the Beach Boys' songs--including Brian's--toward a more retro, nostalgia feel in the mid-to-late 70s and into the 80s--that I don't recall ever reading anything in which Dennis was critical of Brian. All of his comments that I've ever read were glowing: the famous "we're his messengers," and "Smile will make Pet Sounds stink," etc.

Considering Dennis' then-very contemporary sounding music in the 70s and Brian's reversion either to what was very anachronistic (Sweet Sunday, It's OK, Wontcha Come Out Tonight and so on) or bizarre (most of Love You), is there evidence of him more than disliking the general direction of the band, but more specifically disliking Brian's work?

Just curious. It's one thing to be a supportive brother, but quite another to follow blindly down a path you disagree with.

The closest would be during the 15 Big Ones disappointment...Carl made some comments about how Brian shouldn't have been allowed to produce that LP by himself, or something along those lines. And Dennis was quoted basically agreeing with Carl that the LP should not have been released as it was. But he never specifically called Brian out on that. Dennis did make a passing comment in the press about Brian not being physically attractive in his 1976 form, something like he's not good looking but neither was Nat King Cole...typically dumb surfer stuff.

But your point that Dennis was solidly supportive of Brian through all phases is correct. He by far made the biggest effort (from '66 to '83) to praise Brian in public and credit him solely for the BB's success...sometimes to the chagrin of his cousin Mike.

Certainly correct John. And I think alot of Dennis' strong outward praising of Brian was intentionally to aggravate Mike. And it did.

I find it interesting that not only did Dennis support Brian wholeheartedly, he also seemingly tried to deflect flack away from those in the band who did...acting surprised when Pete Fornatale suggested the band were uptight with "Pet Sounds" and "SMiLE", saying things like "I don't know who the problem would have been with, because not one person in the band comes close to Brian's creativity", and "it wasn't our Dad, because we fired him", and "we were singing and we were crying, we were so happy" (paraphrases)....rather than just avoiding the question or saying something like "Well, it wasn't me, and it wasn't my brother Carl...". 

Unless Mike's recent claims are RIGHT, and he never DID have a problem with "Pet Sounds" or "SMiLE", only with the DRUGS and some of the people who used them.....and he actually LOVED the music!

When SMiLE came out, Brian kept saying that "Mike and Dennis didn't like it," and as it turns out, Dennis loved it! Was Brian just mixed up??

I've been looking at a few interviews from as far back as the early seventies, and to be fair on Mike, he claimed even then to really like Pet Sounds. I can see ANYONE getting irritated with SMiLE if Brian isn't finishing the wonderful songs, but spending session upon session making you grunt like a swine, and taking a year with no end in sight when you used to produce three albums in that time, and all the time your competition is getting a lead on you...

Asher also said in the big Nick Kent interview, IIRC] Alan would pull him aside and say how much he liked what they were doing with Pet Sounds, so I wonder who actually disliked it.

Yea that was pretty strange, especially since in several interviews during the making of Smile Dennis was praising it all over the place.  I know Brian doesn't remember every little thing anymore, but you would think that his memory regarding how his brother felt about the album would be somewhat accurate.  Obviously Mike's dislike was no big shock, but I really find it hard to believe that Dennis didn't like it, given what he was saying at the time. 

Ya we have certainly heard MANY conflicting reports about band member reactions. I saw another where Brian said, Dennis and Alan were the only ones supporting him, Mike and Carl didn't think it was commerical or whatever enough. Part of it is memories fading, people being asked at different times, maybe certain songs. For instance, maybe Alan liked one song and Carl didn't or something, doesn't mean their opinions were the same of the whole album!

Did Dennis ever criticize Brian openly?

Other than Mike Love, has ANYONE ever criticized Brian openly?

Edit: I just thought of one - Tony Asher - with the "genius musician, amateur human being" quote...

Brandon Flowers pretty much said.

'I would never do drugs, take Brian Wilson for example, so what if he created Good Vibrations, the guy talks to himself'.

Seems to me there have been plenty of criticisms over the years from Mike, Bruce, Al and non-Beach Boys, yes. Which is why I wondered about the most historically pro-Brian line, Dennis.

Bruce, Al, and non-Beach Boys? Refresh my memory...

Nothing in terms of "Brian is a shithead," but Al saying Brian underproduced a song ("Breakaway"), or Bruce saying Brian hadn't really had a great song since Till I die.  Those are criticisms.

I haven't seen the EH film for years but I think there is an excerpt from a TV interview that Dennis gave, circa 77 in which he mentions that it would be great if Brian got 'off his butt' and wrote more songs instead if lying around all day.
(I'm paraphrasing from my fading memory here). He was generally very supportive of Brian throughout the interview mind you.

It's a pretty gentle dig I guess but it may have been an indication of the frustration that Dennis was feeling, both with Brian and the rest of the BB's at the time.

 :)

How about Carl saying in Crawdaddy that Brian should not have been allowed to produce the 15 Big Ones LP by himself...he wasn't ready for it. He said that as it was coming out. Now THAT'S a criticism if I've ever heard one.

Al has also said he thinks Brian wrecked his voice on purpose...that's a pretty good one.

This is Bruce's quote:

"And yet, the last great Brian Wilson song was on that album (Surf's Up). Til I Die, I remember Brian playing it for the band and one member of the band didn't understand it and put it down, and Brian just decided not to show it to us for a few months. He just put it away, I mean, he was absolutely crushed. This other person didn't like it, but Brian cut it anyway. I think that song was pretty meaningful in expressing where he was at that point in time. I think it's his heaviest song, even though I'm probably wrong". 

That entire quote certainly isn't on EH, which is the source I had in mind. And either way, I am not trying to claim that I'm some sort of BB-quote-computer, either. AGD I am not, nor do I want to be. All I was trying to get at was a general point (gods forbid): that while the others seem to have taken their jabs here and there, it didn't seem Dennis ever publicly did. My question was, did he?

No offense intended, Luther. I wasn't trying to show you up or anything, just trying to respond to your thread, make a little conversation. I had some time, dug out the quote. But, if you're going to overreact that way, with profanity and taking jabs at people, you don't deserve a response. 

[never mind.]

[never mind.]

Um...to answer your question Luther...no, I don't think Dennis ever did publicly criticize Brian.
If he did, it was constructive criticism (like, "Gee I wish Brian would get off his fat butt and make some great music again, 'cause he is the Beach Boys and we're just his messengers!").

:)

Wat??? screw Wayland flowers that f'n pansy!!!!
His band the killers (ooohhoooo, im so scared and intimidated)!!!!
They suck duran duran barberella evil doll ass!!!!!!! he's such a wuss and a half.

And i live in Vegas...nobody likes them here...Somebody tell them!!! im ashamed they're from Nevada!!ha ha

i feel better.

Is the merit of someone's opinion based on whether he's a pansy or wuss? Just wondering.

Well, gee and thanks. It's always nice to know precisely what others think of you, and your contributions, especially in public.

...only when it comes to you, mr. vandross

Well I like you and your book Mr. Doe  ;D

:lol Good one!

I agree about Flowers. I admittedly like one or two of the Killers' songs, but really overall they are nothing but poseurs.

Tremendously witty.

I didn't say anything negative about you, Andrew. I said that I don't have or desire you encyclopedic knowledge of the Beach Boys. I'm pretty happy knowing what would be to an average person a lot, but to a super-fan not necessarily so much. I respect your knowledge.

I only have it on an old betamax tape, so I can't cue it up for review, but as I recall it Dennis was interviewed while under sail in the "It's OK" NBC TV special and said of Brian "He's CRAZY!"

Take that as criticism or kudo as you will.

Well, it takes one to know one  :-D

Dennis didn't like 15 Big Ones and he and Carl both said it was a mistake for Brian to be in sole charge. Both said they felt ignored as artists but (and they emphisised this strongly) they supported their brother. I think the Crawdaddy articles is where you can find their complaints. They weren't mean about it, just honest. Dennis 1976 interview where he says no one had a problem with Brian's 66-67 work is great. I am not dumb enough to think Mike never made waves, but I think Brian's own doubts were much stronger then any voiced by the others. Remember he made fun of the Heroes and Villians lyrics right along with Mike on the Lei'd rehearsal. Again and I have said this before Brian's word was law and it is only in the 80s when Landy took over that the Beach Boys didn't go out of their way to make room for his contributions. In fact I think the release of Surf's Up in 1971 was the first time they really went against his wishes.

Man, everyone seems so uptight lately...Just remember, you're fine.

Alan has complained about Brian's underproduction of Cottonfields (which he recut because he didn't like Brian's version - which incidentally Brian later complained about), Breakaway, and even Heroes and Villains.  Mike of course has  complained profusely about Brian - his not touring but getting income from the tours, his drug use, his songs being melancholy and downers (he was the one who objected to Till I Die, big surprise), his music being too far out for the public.

Dennis few public comments on Smile were very positive, but they were early on in the Smile sessions (fall of 66) and we are left to wonder what he thoughts were in April and May 67.  Carl apparently did not feel Smile was the right direction, whether because he felt it was uncommercial or because he could see Brian was struggling without much result to finish it, and Dennis may have followed Carl's lead.  A theory has been promulgated (not by me) that a Beach Boys board meeting was held in late December/early January about the sessions and a group vote was held to can the album.