The Smiley Smile Message Board

One of my favorite of BB's periods was 71-73. They almost achieved the impossibe by appealing to the 'hip' crowd. I would probably give most of the credit to Carl Wilson's producing. But I am sure that Jack Reilly had something to do with this.

Does anybody know why he was fired? I read somewhere that he ticked people off. But who and why?

Jack Rieley was fired by Carl (I THINK) because they began to learn that his was murky past that he had told them about wasn't entirely accurate eg. He won a "Peabody" writing award or something, which he hadn't and loads of other unprovable creddentials. Bruce was always sceptical of him, hence why Bruce left / was fired. He also told the Beach Boys that he was going to stay in Holland as he could manage them from there, but Carl went out to fire him. I also think (somebody correct me if I am wrong) he told them he had incurable cancer or some disease and if he could have some money for treatment, but miraculously recovered (wink wink)  ::)

AGD told me he later managed Kool and The Gang in the 80's and now runs an IT firm. Lives in Pacific North West apparantely.

He kept eating all their food and refusing to leave Carl's house, saying things like "I don't believe that you are going to get to the top without making me more grilled cheese sandwiches... so hop to, fat boy." Or waking key members of the group up in the early morning, bollock naked and learing over them with a bottle of olive oil saying in near silent tones "smell this and see if it's edible."

He was also kept quoting non-sensical passages in random books, usually giving away the ending. It was infuriating. TRUST ME. I KNOW.

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They also didn't appreciate him producing other such hot acts such as this-)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rq0zUJCl9Qs

Whatever reason, with hindsight, it was rather unfortunate. They were pretty much finished a s vital creative force when Reiley got the boot - excepting POB and Love You, and some people would argue against the latter.

I made some searches, trying to find a corporate picture of him. Just found some corporate info..
http://www.forbes.com/finance/mktguideapps/personinfo/FromPersonIdPersonTearsheet.jhtml?passedPersonId=899391

checked archive.org for old jfax pages, but I didn't find anything relevant.. :P

they didnt like his album --- western Justice   ;D

It couldn't have had anything to do with homophobia in the Beach Boys' camp at that time, could it?

Despite Jack's failings such as his creative C.V. writing, he really did deliver on making the Beach Boys current and "hip."  Despite Bruce and Brian's misgivings, the BB career was resurrected by Jack and without him I shudder to think what would have happened - probably the dark ages of 1968-1970 would have continued until Mike stepped in to transform the BB into a mouldy oldies band in the 80's.

Reilly certainly improved the perceptions of the group...got them some good press and raised their profile...but he didn't exactly turn them around creatively. I'd say Friends, 20/20 and Sunflower were all better LP's than Surf's Up and So Tough. Holland would be as good but not better...IMO. I guess if taking inferior product and getting more attention for it makes you a genius than he was one. But he presided over the dismantling of, or dumbing down of, what could have been the greatest BB's LP...Surf's UP...and saw it turn into a political compromise between members with less artisitc vision while great songs disappeared from it.  The cover is neat...and some of it is genius, but the whole thing could have surpassed Sunflower as a statement of art, and to me it falls way short of even matching it. So Tough falls short of that. Do I blame Reilly?? No. But he was their manager and if he gets credit for the good then folks should be reminded that he was by no means a savior in every way.

No luck finding anything new but thought this quote was worth repeating.

    

"To me, Surf's Up is, and always has been, one hyped up lie!  It was a false reflection of The Beach Boys, and one which Jack (Rieley) engineered right from the outset.  Jack was just very, very smart in that he was able to camouflage what was actually going on by making it look like Brian Wilson was more than just a visitor at those sessions.  Jack made it appear as though Brian was really there all the time."
 
Bruce Johnston on the fight that caused him to leave The Beach Boys
 

 

I thought Dennis withdrew his 2 SU tracks because he didn't agree with the inclusion of Surf's Up as the closing track. And I guess, behind the curtains, Jack would rather have a dud with a Brian Wilson writing credit (easy folks, I'm talking about the Feet song) than anything else in the next album.

Do I prefer a hipotetic 'Landlocked' album with 'Wouldn't It Nice to Live Again' and 'Fourth of July' and without 'Surf's Up' and 'Take Good Care of Your Feet'?  No. Dennis probably made his bet on a solo album.

I do think that Jack Reilly's lyrics were pretty good. Similar to Van Dyke's but more political.

I do agree about the Surfs Up album that it could've been better. Not to mention SDT by Mike. I don't mind SU being on there, but Dennis' songs would've improved it big time. In the late 60s they also left several excellent songs off albums, like 'Soulful Old Man Sunshine' and 'Celebrate the News'.  Instead they included 'Cotton Fields' and 'Bluebirds..'?

Jack's lived in New England for some years now. Don't think he's connected with the stated IT firm now. Interviewed him in 1982 - interesting cove.

Would love to read it Andrew! My 2 cents is that the Beach Boys LP's during his tenure didn't match up with the half dozen ones that came before. That said they are all still solid albums to me. The live shows WERE the best during his era. Desper has said Brian and Jack got along well at first and he even said Jack helped Brian be a more regular visitor to the S.U. sessions then the ones for 20/20 or Sunflower.  The difference with S.U. though is that while he may have done more consistent work in the background, what Brian did do on 20/20 and Sunflower was more central to the music particularly on the later.

It was printed in a very old copy of Stomp - when I get back home, I'll dig it out and post a few of the more interesting bits.

Jack Rieley was briefly on PSML twice many years ago. I remember when he first joined and posted an intro message, he was severely flamed with messages saying stuff like "The same Jack Rieley who lied his way to hook up with the Beach Boys?" and other angry posts....he left pretty much right away. A couple of years later he joined again and stayed around long enough to answer questions, including what was going on during the writing and recording of "Feel Flows" (basically a lot of silliness among Carl, Annie, and Jack) and who wrote the "A children's song..." lyrics. (I seem to remember Jack said that Al Jardine wrote them -- I seem to remember the phrase "pure Jardine" being involved...but another member quoted another post to me in which Rieley implied that he wrote the words.) He just sort of disappeared from the list after a month or so.

I would be more interested in hearing a non-Jack Reilly influenced BB record from 1970-73. Sunflower and SU both fall short of Friends, 20/20. They went a different direction artistically (trying to not sound like the beach boys) after Jack arrived and im not sure it was for the better.

I think Jack only arrived at the scene after the release of Sunflower.

He really did sound like a dying tree on "Day in the Life of......", you've got to give him that.

Thanks Andrew. Jack's posts on the message board from 1996 are very interesting. Boy he really hates Bruce, Al and Mike. I wonder what he thinks of the Al and Mike's fallout.

I really liked Reilly's voice on 'Life of a Tree'. But wouldn't Dennis have fit well on that song, too? Or perhaps Murray, if he would do it.

I think he did a good job on the 'Fairy Tale' as well.

As far as the Beach Boys changing styles, I disagree with that on SU, but 'So Tough' and 'Holland', yeah. But I liked it. Especially 'Holland'.

I hear a change on Sunflower only in that it is mixed better then previous albums. Surf's Up I hear a real change because of how the vocals are done, subject matter, and Dennis and Brian moving to the background.

Any comments about the Jack postings?

It seems to me that Jack's analysis rings largely true.  The live shows (I attended a couple in 73-74) were particularly good.  Most notably they contained elements of maturity and moving forward that earned respect for the group. 
When I next saw them perform (New Years 1976-77) it was a bit of a train wreck even though there were some great musicians on stage and Brian was there.   
     

First time I've ever heard Brian Epstein's management referred to as 'professional' - the amount of money he literally allowed to slip through his fingers is astounding.

Also, the BB had strong direction up to early 1967 - they did what Brian said, at least in musical terms.

Interesting observations. I think Jack liked to build his role up, but has a lot of insight. It is clear that he has a grudge against Bruce, Al, and Mike although his story about Love's dance moves to Marcella is a riot. Didn't think he and Brian were so chummy. It's also strange but I have heard about Brian loosing weight in Holland but he is heavier then ever on the back cover. Too bad there haven't been more photos of the trip publically shared.

Im a bit skeptical if its the real Jack Reilly...but its still some cool info. Though he is a bit full of himself. And I totally call bullshit on Bruce asking him to write the lyrics for Disney Girls. Yeah fucking right...the guy hates you yet hes gonna approach you for lyrics? Too much wacky tabacky got to his brain in the Dam.

all i know is when i questioned this 10 years ago to someone i was asked to present a couple of questions about the spring album. when i relayed the answer to my post i was told " yep...passed the test".

take it for whatever it may be worth to you but i believed what i was told after that and really thought it was jack.

Only live performance of  "A Day In the Life Of  A Tree"
Long Beach Arena, Long Beach, CA December 3, 1971

Reportedly, Brian was coaxed onstage to play organ for, just this song, while Jack also appeared and sang it.

By the way, his name is R-i-e-l-e-y isn't it?

If Brian Wilson would've wanted or needed Jack Reily to stay around, he would've stayed around. Apparently, Brian no longer had any further use for him, therefore, neither did the Beach Boys.

I am having mixed emotions  reading the Reilly pieces. Some have interesting stories and analysis, other pieces are the biggest loads of BS ever. Reilly clearly loves  to credit himself way too much.  Feel Flows have to to be some of the most god awful lyrics ever. I have non Beach Boy friends who heard it in Almost Famous and just love the song and just laugh hysterically at the lyrics, just totally kill the song. In fact, at 1 performance in the late 70's , Carl apologized for the "awful lyrics". It is almost laughable the way he breaks up the group too. Everything good the BB ever accomplished was the Wilsons, everything bad Love Jardine Johnston. Its so ridiculously bias. Note to Jack: Trader could have been a great song except your stupid lyrics make the thing last forever and drag on and on.  You no doubt helped the BB reach success live and with Surfs Up and Holland. But I can see his attitude definitely pissed off people. After reading some posts, I just want to punch the guy for being a complete and utter ass. Love and Jardine, say what you will about them, played a part in making those live shows in the early 70s a huge success. Trust me, most fans would not have loved and gone nuts over an encore of Feel Flows, Mess of Help, Marcella, Funky Pretty, and Steamboat. Some great songs, but lets face it Dutch buddy not all great! Second, how about the fact you deceived the entire group about your creditentials! Didn't mention that. Clearly a man with some good ideas, a warped personality (don't see many successful bands stand in line to hire him), a warped sense of personality, and rightfully canned!

I think it's more the others taking over and having their own sound, which differs from Brian's. Still pure Beach Boys.
Political topics in songs is part of the image not of the sound imo (if that makes sense)


BTW What's that story about Riley and Mike's dance steps to "Marcella"?

It took me a awful long while to notice the links down there in this page.

Anyway:
http://www.smileysmile.net/index.php/jack_rieley_speaks_part_one
http://www.smileysmile.net/index.php/jack_rieley_speaks_part_two

Mike was just practicing to do his part of the job. That Mike Love is just sooo cool.

What songs were supposed to appear on it and didn't?

Is there an original song list for the Surf's Up album that you could tell me about?  Is it significantly different from the song list for the "Landlocked" album, as shown at Andrew G. Doe's site?

http://www.btinternet.com/~bellagio/unreleased.html

Stephen Desper has said to me that Bruce DID in fact like Rieley for a breif time, so the Disney Grils thing is plausable. I love Loop De Loop though far more then many of "Jack's" songs.

I wonder if Jack was able to go to Brian's 'Pet Sounds' and 'Smile' shows and what he thought of them. I bet he really enjoyed them. Also, if the things he says are true then why isn't he friends with Brian today? If they are, it seems strange that there is no press on it.

I also found it strange that Jack never once mentioned Blondie and Ricky. I read all of it so if he did it was briefly.

there was more than what is in part 1 & 2 here. i remember reading things that are not listed here. like the making of feel flows, just what "white puff" and "black puff" meant. things like that. i believe he did comment on blondie & ricky. i don't remember for sure just what else was talked about but there was a lot more.

Thanks !!

They are definitely not complete.  But they are all I can find on my computer.  If any more of Jack's posts turn up, I'll gladly post them on my site.

i saved those way back when also. of course it was many a computer ago. i know i put them on floppy discs. i will try to find them. if i do i will pass them on also.

You learn something new every day....

As a BB/BW nut for decades now, I thought I read and knew pretty much about Brian Wilson. But nooooooooooooooooo. Today, I found out that Brian was insecure about the size of his penis. Thanks, Jack. :police:

in this "bigger is better" world, aren't we all!!   :lol

Those were both fascinating to read, definitely a lot of stuff in there I never knew (Brian and his, uh, "shortcomings").

One other thing that is only slightly off topic.  I loved reading Rielly's response about the composition and recording of "A Day In the Life of a Tree".  I guess what surprised me though is that it really seems as if it was just written about a tree, not some deep metaphor into Brian's psyche at the time.  It seems to lend itself to the latter purpose perfectly, and I've always thought that somewhere in those words was a deep dark piece of Brian trying to describe how he was feeling, much like "Til I Die" but a bit more subtle.   Just seems strange to me that it really might be as simplistic as it sounds.

Plus hearing about how Brian "tricked" Jack into recording the lead vocal was hilarious. 

When I was reading about the Surf's Up album, he mentioned that Dennis' songs were taken off to make room for Mike, Al and Bruce songs to keep them happy or something. I thought that Dennis toak his own song's off because he was unhappy with SU being on the album and wanted to make a solo album.

Way I've heard it, from several sources, Dennis & Carl had a blowup over the sequencing, and Denny took his songs (or possibly, song) off.

Dennis had between two and four songs in every Beach Boys album between '68 and '73, except for Surf's up. Mike and Al certainly wanted more space for their songs in 1971 but I don't see how it would automatically mean NO Dennis tracks. The 'blow-up with Carl' version makes more sense.

Right! This is a subject that I will never be able to make sense out of, and that is the process by which the Beach Boys chose/limited/left off the songs on their albums.

The Surf's Up album had only 10 songs on it, and clocks in at 30 some minutes. Now I know there is a limit as to how many minutes of music can fit on a side of vinyl, but why not include Mike and Al's songs - AND Dennis' one or two songs. I mean, there appeared to be enough room/space to acommodate ALL of the guys' songs.

I have never been able to figure out why the Beach Boys' left so many good songs off of their albums, which would've strengthened their "weaker" albums significantly.

Which begs the question from someone who knows how record companies work. If they sign a artist for a album, just what is the definition. ie How many songs or the total length etc?
I read of some artists who have so many songs, they then try to put out a double album which must require some renegotiation with the label.

Re the Rieley 96 replies. His distaste of Mike working out some moves for Marcella live. Brian did just those same moves, sitting down, when I went to a BWPS show in 04!  :lol

Oh, I truly believe that Brian's on-stage movements are/were part of an attempt to be hip like Mike. God or bad. But to my eyes, it's all a part of the competition.

Great, I have really enjoyed Jack's comments that have been posted so far.  I would particularily be interested in his comments concerning Murry's funeral service if he ever got back to talking about that.

Thank you, sir!

found this on amazon while looking for "western justice"..... posted january 18th, 2003

Reviewer: A music fan
I wrote a story a whole lot of moons ago, a story about power, prejudice, globalization and excess in the western world. It read like a diary and much of it consisted of music, ten songs to be exact. The songs and fictional diary were meant as a warning, a kind of prophetic warning, of what would happen if western nations did not abandon horrific policies that would inevitably, one day, lead to retribution. The project was called Western Justice.
Back then, a man named Roel Kruize ran EMI Records in The Netherlands, and he took the project seriously, electing to record it in the elaborate manner I proposed. There would be a full symphonic orchestra, good pop musicians and a children's' choir in the recordings. Western Justice would appear as an album accompanied by a book-form insert containing the diary and color photographs.

A sensitive artist by the name of Harm Botman was invited to do the illustrative photos. Harm's brother Machiel was eager to do some of the vocals, which made sense because of his dedicated enthusiasm for the project. John Leckie, already a respected recording engineering who later went on to become a legendary music producer, agreed to engineer the extensive recording sessions. A fine musician, Gerard Stellaard, was enlisted to do the arrangements.

Much of the recording was done in EMI's studios in Heemstede, The Netherlands. Additional recording and all mixing was accomplished at Abbey Road studios in London. During the process, an eleventh song was added to the list, composed by Machiel Botman.

In the end, my own doubts about my vocal performances caused me to mix the vocals deeper and deeper into the lush instrumental tracks. Someone said I was doing a "graveyard mix" because of my penchant for burying those vocals.

In many ways, it was a spectacular project. Harm Botman's photographs were truly brilliant, Machiel Botman added youth and innocence to the recordings, Gerard Stellaard's arrangements were very good, the musicians made my songs sound beautiful, the diary booklet was set according to my exact wishes, right down to the choice of type style.

Roel Kruize, who went on to become a top executive for EMI internationally, has now chosen to release Western Justice as a CD, complete with the diary and all. In a message that touched me to the core, Roel has written to say, "Western Justice as philosophy became timeless. The gap has further widened, and therefore Western Justice can still contribute" to understanding the crisis and our world today.

Indeed, the world has become a much more frightening place. America is in the clutches of a junta bent on war while, around the world, there is increasing alienation at Washington's ever greater hunger to display raw power, Western Justice maye be a parable for our times.

- Jack Rieley

  Away from Jack Rieley's deepening paranoia.......I just read the 2 part threads that were posted from back in 1996 and was quite impressed by Rieley's "contributions" and insightfulness.
  Does anyone of you know how to contact him and see if he'd be interested  in coming back on board here after a 10 year absence??
It seems pretty unanamous that everybody misses Dennis Wilson.Jack had some woderful words of praise for Denny.
Cheers,
Bri

Has this site been mentioned here already?
 http://www.western-justice.com/

I think we should take alot of what Jack wrote on those messeges with a grain of salt too. Jack was known as a master manipulator, and over the decades i think he realized it looks good to bash the Love side of the band (he calls them the Losers) and praise the Wilson side. When the truth is SU has more Love and Jardine material than any record besides Carl and the passions (another album Reilly was around for) Holland is a little better.
Another little known fact was it was Van Dyke Parks idea to call the album SU and include the song. the reasoning was it would sell 200,000 more copies with SU included and Warner Brothers had called Van Dyke asking about the Smile materisl he had worked on.




But the truth was Reilly was on any side that helped keep him around.

Man, those Jack - Brian meetings must have been a clash of titans. Aces and bluffs flying all around.  ;D

I can see that. First of all, I think it is unfair to suggest that the Wilsons were all good and the Love/Jardine/Johnstons were all bad. The Wilsons music was better then the LJJ music, but here are some exceptions. These of course are subject to my personal opinion.

Not so good Wilsons' songs: 'All I Want to Do', 'Got to Know the Woman' and 'Trader'

Not so bad Love/Jardine/Johnson songs: 'Don't Go Near the Water', 'Disney Girls' and 'Looking At Tommorow' and 'California Saga'

However, the two songs that I truly hate from this period (Student Demonstration Time and He Comes Down) are "songs of Love"

Did you seriously just list 'Trader' as a not so good Wilson song? What the f*** are you smoking?

Think you'll find a Wilson credit on the latter... and I do believe it's Brian's.

Yeah, He Comes Down is a great tune...Demo Time...not so much.

Whan I first got Surf's Up as a second generation tape dub back in 1990, I liked it a lot, and saw it was a early 70s update of the other album by them that I had, Pet Sounds. I didn't know how thay had got there, the backload of tracks that were piling up in brother shelves, and the Dennis tracks that were left out. Student Demonstration Time didn't bother me then, I considered it a 'change of pace' / 'back to the roots' track in the middle of a mostly mellow mid-tempo album. Overall, "Take a Look at Your Feet" was the dud track IMO. But what bothered me the most about Surf's Up was the positioning of "Till I Die" and "Surf's Up". When you listen to them for the first time, they sound kinda similar, and I thought throwing them there back to back as the closing tracks was a mistake. Bad sequencing IMO.

Agreed, sequencing for Surf's Up isnt that great. The worst goes to 20/20 though. I have my own tracklist for that album and it flows *so* much better. Thank goodness for playlists!

I like Student Demo Time. The lyrics are kind of iffy but the performance itself is great. Dennis really cooks on it.

Fact is, Student D T was the first, and maybe only, song that got the FM stations to play anything from that album. It is in my top 3 albums.

that is what i have been saying here for a long time. fm radio was very different back then. all those songs fit well in the time period they were recorded in. sdt & feel flows got lots of college fm airplay back here also. i used to listen to wcfl out of chicago (am) at night. they played don't go near the water a lot.
some songs/lyrics may not age well but in 1971 they fit the times. like taking a photo today what you are wearing and 35 years later laugh your ass off at the style of clothes you worn back then. one has to remember the era when this stuff was 1st put out.

I've heard several people say they aren't a big fan of 'Take a load off'. When I first heard it, I didn't like it either and thought it was kind of cheesy. But it has grown on me as a song that I think would fit well on Friends. 

In early1985 I won a contest on a radio station and part of it was I could play any Beach Boy song of my choosing. Well, I played Take a Load Off. It was a mid-day thing and it went over big. People were calling in asking who in the world was that, The Beach Boys? That's why I picked that song. Side note: I brought in a sealed Surf's Up album that day and before they opened it, they asked me if I was sure.

I like the production on Feet not the lyrics though.

I like Feet and agree it would be good on Friends which was a bit too short anyway - so it goes on my extended "Friends" cd.
The lyrics of Student Demonstration Time made me wince back then, as well as now.  It's a great track but lyrically was a seriously misguided attempt to make the Beach Boys more current.  In fact it had the opposite effect. 

From my point of view, the sequencing on Surf's Up makes BW's appearance on that album even more poignant and mysterious. Though that record might probably not be perfect as a whole, it has basically intrigued me for years.

I do like the idea of using the bull-horn on Demo Time. Don't know if had been done before but when you think of the protest songs of the time it was quite inspired. Dylan may have kicked himself that he didn't think of it.

Totally disagree that SDT had a negative effect on the Beach Boys. Didn't you read how it became popular on FM radio when it came out? And being in college at the time, I know firsthand that it opened people's eyes and ears big-time. Some for the first time. Sorry.

R. Dean Taylor - "Indiana Wants Me"

Yeah, but that was just a sound effect at the end.  There was no singing through the bullhorn like there was on SDT - wait - that wasn't really a bullhorn . .  .

Possibly I was thinking about "Just Gotta See Jane". One of the two has a distorted lead vocal.

SDT went Top 10 on Boston AM radio.

It made the top 30 here in Holland.

I guess it went to at least #5 on a Boston FM too.

#21, to be exactly.

My prefered 'Friends' album would include 'Time to Get Alone', 'I Went to Sleep' and 'Sail Plane' and be without 'Transendetal Meditation'. I think TM is a good song, but not on Friends and definatley not as a closer.

I feel that  SDT's title, itself, implies a detached perspective as do the lyrics. 
“Jackson State brothers learned not to say nasty things about Southern policemen's mothers” refers to a violent riot involving black students in Jackson Miss. on May 14-15, 1970.  In the process of quelling the riot, police opened fire killing two students and injuring twelve while firing over 460 rounds.
The original Isla Vista riot “where police felt so harassed” involved students burning down the local Bank Of America.  The local police were attacked and sustained many serious injuries. The “protestors” actually drove them out of town.  The L.A. County Sheriffs that Mike refers to were brought in to deal with a subsequent, follow up, riot.  They were very very heavy handed and killed one innocent bystander.
Kent State “Four martyrs earned a new degree the Bachelor of Bullets” was Kent State.

What does Brian think about this song?  “It didn’t hit the spot for me” “Lyrically it was a little too far out for me”.
I can see liking this song for the same reason that Pam Anderson claimed for liking a certain “unnatural act” -  because it’s SO wrong.  Taken in a certain way, maybe it is really good, but “Blowing In The Wind” it is not.   

Interesting discussion...