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Smiley Smile Stuff => General On Topic Discussions => Topic started by: Austin Shields on July 22, 2021, 09:33:52 AM



Title: Brian’s involvement in solo albums
Post by: Austin Shields on July 22, 2021, 09:33:52 AM
In reading about the reevaluation of some of Brian’s solo albums, it brought up a question I’ve always wanted to ask here. What is Brian’s actual degree of involvement in the songwriting and production of his solo albums? I find it hard to fully enjoy a lot of these albums, because it seems so many others were involved with them, that there wasn’t a lot of pure Brian input. I also know he has to deal with mental illness, and wonder how much this affects his abilities to oversee projects.

I remember when the Wild Honey and Friends box sets came out, everyone was excited to hear how much Brian had produced these albums. I wish we had something similar with the solo albums to shed some light.

Thanks for any answers.


Title: Re: Brian’s involvement in solo albums
Post by: phirnis on July 22, 2021, 10:32:02 AM
I have no facts to back up my personal impressions, so this is all speculation based on years of listening. For me, the American Spring album feels like the starting point for all the Brian projects where it's hard to tell how much of an impact he really had. I hear lots of "pure Brian" on BW88 and the TLOS demos. It's different with stuff like Imagination where I'm convinced that Brian really wanted to make this album because he was hoping for a hit record; but does it sound like a real Brian (co-)production? It depends on the song I guess but overall, not really, to me anyway. I would really love to know how much he was involved in creating the arrangements for the Gershwin album.


Title: Re: Brian’s involvement in solo albums
Post by: Wirestone on July 22, 2021, 10:50:01 AM
It varied, and that's okay.

Was it like the '60s? Nope. Was he coherent and contributing? Sure.

Some projects, he spearheaded the songwriting. On others, he played more of a support role.

Ditto for production and arranging.

The main point is this -- no one (with the possible exception of Landy) ever shut him down or muzzled him in the studio. When he had something to contribute, his band and everyone around him rushed to make it happen.

It's also true that Brian has recorded a fair amount for his own enjoyment, bringing his band together to play covers, and those pieces have never been released. I recall being told a wild story about him recording an ... unusual .... take on Dylan's Mr. Tambourine Man back in the oughts with electronic percussion.


Title: Re: Brian’s involvement in solo albums
Post by: juggler on July 22, 2021, 11:26:49 AM

It's also true that Brian has recorded a fair amount for his own enjoyment, bringing his band together to play covers, and those pieces have never been released. I recall being told a wild story about him recording an ... unusual .... take on Dylan's Mr. Tambourine Man back in the oughts with electronic percussion.


You're absolutely right about Brian recording for his own enjoyment.  His son-in-law Rob Bonfiglio (Carnie's husband) had this to say five years ago:

There was a brief moment in time when Brian would come by our house and simply want to have fun in the studio without any pretense. Kind of a mini “Basement Tapes” sort of thing. I have the recordings we did, and they really evoke a sort of Love You-era Beach Boys vibe. Brian would say, “Do you have such and such a sound on this keyboard?” and I’d dial it up for him, and we’d build a track like that, add percussion and he’d sing, Carnie would sing, and I would sing, and a track would be born.  Needless to say, I’d love to someday finish what we started!
https://www.rockcellarmagazine.com/rob-bonfiglio-interview-guitarist-songwriter-wanderlust-wilson-phillips-the-tribe-power-pop/


Title: Re: Brian’s involvement in solo albums
Post by: maggie on July 25, 2021, 04:55:01 PM
In reading about the reevaluation of some of Brian’s solo albums, it brought up a question I’ve always wanted to ask here. What is Brian’s actual degree of involvement in the songwriting and production of his solo albums? I find it hard to fully enjoy a lot of these albums, because it seems so many others were involved with them, that there wasn’t a lot of pure Brian input. I also know he has to deal with mental illness, and wonder how much this affects his abilities to oversee projects.

I remember when the Wild Honey and Friends box sets came out, everyone was excited to hear how much Brian had produced these albums. I wish we had something similar with the solo albums to shed some light.

Thanks for any answers.

There are a lot of conspiracy theories about Brian's capabilities or lack thereof, and generally I find them unconvincing. Yes, many of the 21st-century Brian projects are collaborative, but I think there's ample evidence of who did what. Tl;Dr: essentially Brian generates the melodies and vocal arrangements, and the rest is collaborative to varying degrees.

Some basics that I've put together over the years:

Imagination/That's Why God/No Pier Pressure: apparently these all drew from a common well of songs where generally Joe Thomas would be running through progressions and if Brian heard something he liked, he would improvise a melody on top. Joe would then wrangle this material into songs. Then for the first two projects Brian would focus on the vocal arrangements while Joe would arrange the band. For No Pier Pressure, Joe left the project fairly early on and Brian worked with Paul von Mertens and the guests on the arrangements.

Gershwin/Disney: Paul von Mertens would work up the basic band arrangements which Brian would modify to greater or lesser degrees as he saw fit. Paul would then handle the orchestrations while Brian arranged the vocals

Christmas: I think Brian was really in the driver's seat for this one. The two new songs were repurposed from existing, relatively recent Brian compositions.

Smile: Darian Sahanaja essentially put this together, albeit in close consultation with Brian

I Just Wasn't Made...: Reportedly no production/arrangement involvement from Brian

That Lucky Old Sun: Brian generated all the basic tunes in what was apparently a tremendous late rush of creativity, some of the lyrics, and the basic band arrangements, which Scott Bennett then had the job of reshaping -- to make everything fit together, changing tempos and dynamics, adding instruments, reconfiguring songs and then writing the bulk of the lyrics to fit the theme.

I'm sure I've made some mistakes here but that's what I gather off the top of my head. I haven't mentioned the 1988 album or Gettin In Over My Head because those projects are a bit more mysterious.


Title: Re: Brian’s involvement in solo albums
Post by: thetojo on July 25, 2021, 08:07:16 PM
In reading about the reevaluation of some of Brian’s solo albums, it brought up a question I’ve always wanted to ask here. What is Brian’s actual degree of involvement in the songwriting and production of his solo albums? I find it hard to fully enjoy a lot of these albums, because it seems so many others were involved with them, that there wasn’t a lot of pure Brian input. I also know he has to deal with mental illness, and wonder how much this affects his abilities to oversee projects.

I remember when the Wild Honey and Friends box sets came out, everyone was excited to hear how much Brian had produced these albums. I wish we had something similar with the solo albums to shed some light.

Thanks for any answers.

There are a lot of conspiracy theories about Brian's capabilities or lack thereof, and generally I find them unconvincing. Yes, many of the 21st-century Brian projects are collaborative, but I think there's ample evidence of who did what. Tl;Dr: essentially Brian generates the melodies and vocal arrangements, and the rest is collaborative to varying degrees.

Some basics that I've put together over the years:

Imagination/That's Why God/No Pier Pressure: apparently these all drew from a common well of songs where generally Joe Thomas would be running through progressions and if Brian heard something he liked, he would improvise a melody on top. Joe would then wrangle this material into songs. Then for the first two projects Brian would focus on the vocal arrangements while Joe would arrange the band. For No Pier Pressure, Joe left the project fairly early on and Brian worked with Paul von Mertens and the guests on the arrangements.

Gershwin/Disney: Paul von Mertens would work up the basic band arrangements which Brian would modify to greater or lesser degrees as he saw fit. Paul would then handle the orchestrations while Brian arranged the vocals

Christmas: I think Brian was really in the driver's seat for this one. The two new songs were repurposed from existing, relatively recent Brian compositions.

Smile: Darian Sahanaja essentially put this together, albeit in close consultation with Brian

I Just Wasn't Made...: Reportedly no production/arrangement involvement from Brian

That Lucky Old Sun: Brian generated all the basic tunes in what was apparently a tremendous late rush of creativity, some of the lyrics, and the basic band arrangements, which Scott Bennett then had the job of reshaping -- to make everything fit together, changing tempos and dynamics, adding instruments, reconfiguring songs and then writing the bulk of the lyrics to fit the theme.

I'm sure I've made some mistakes here but that's what I gather off the top of my head. I haven't mentioned the 1988 album or Gettin In Over My Head because those projects are a bit more mysterious.

Your impressions seem about right. I think most of what you say is probably correct. I did think that Scott drove the songwriting a bit more than Brian on TLOS.

I think Brian had the concept / initial inspiration for the theme, but I somehow think Scotty did most of the writing. Not to suggest Brian didn't contribute enormously. Just my impression.

Thinking back, that "All Day - Lucky Old Sun Theme" can't remember what it ended up being called - dropped from the album, but performed live a few times - that's gotta be pure Brian.


Title: Re: Brian’s involvement in solo albums
Post by: maggie on July 26, 2021, 12:46:19 PM
In reading about the reevaluation of some of Brian’s solo albums, it brought up a question I’ve always wanted to ask here. What is Brian’s actual degree of involvement in the songwriting and production of his solo albums? I find it hard to fully enjoy a lot of these albums, because it seems so many others were involved with them, that there wasn’t a lot of pure Brian input. I also know he has to deal with mental illness, and wonder how much this affects his abilities to oversee projects.

I remember when the Wild Honey and Friends box sets came out, everyone was excited to hear how much Brian had produced these albums. I wish we had something similar with the solo albums to shed some light.

Thanks for any answers.

There are a lot of conspiracy theories about Brian's capabilities or lack thereof, and generally I find them unconvincing. Yes, many of the 21st-century Brian projects are collaborative, but I think there's ample evidence of who did what. Tl;Dr: essentially Brian generates the melodies and vocal arrangements, and the rest is collaborative to varying degrees.

Some basics that I've put together over the years:

Imagination/That's Why God/No Pier Pressure: apparently these all drew from a common well of songs where generally Joe Thomas would be running through progressions and if Brian heard something he liked, he would improvise a melody on top. Joe would then wrangle this material into songs. Then for the first two projects Brian would focus on the vocal arrangements while Joe would arrange the band. For No Pier Pressure, Joe left the project fairly early on and Brian worked with Paul von Mertens and the guests on the arrangements.

Gershwin/Disney: Paul von Mertens would work up the basic band arrangements which Brian would modify to greater or lesser degrees as he saw fit. Paul would then handle the orchestrations while Brian arranged the vocals

Christmas: I think Brian was really in the driver's seat for this one. The two new songs were repurposed from existing, relatively recent Brian compositions.

Smile: Darian Sahanaja essentially put this together, albeit in close consultation with Brian

I Just Wasn't Made...: Reportedly no production/arrangement involvement from Brian

That Lucky Old Sun: Brian generated all the basic tunes in what was apparently a tremendous late rush of creativity, some of the lyrics, and the basic band arrangements, which Scott Bennett then had the job of reshaping -- to make everything fit together, changing tempos and dynamics, adding instruments, reconfiguring songs and then writing the bulk of the lyrics to fit the theme.

I'm sure I've made some mistakes here but that's what I gather off the top of my head. I haven't mentioned the 1988 album or Gettin In Over My Head because those projects are a bit more mysterious.

Your impressions seem about right. I think most of what you say is probably correct. I did think that Scott drove the songwriting a bit more than Brian on TLOS.

I think Brian had the concept / initial inspiration for the theme, but I somehow think Scotty did most of the writing. Not to suggest Brian didn't contribute enormously. Just my impression.

Thinking back, that "All Day - Lucky Old Sun Theme" can't remember what it ended up being called - dropped from the album, but performed live a few times - that's gotta be pure Brian.

The thing is, so much of the working material for TLOS has leaked, the songwriting credits are right there, there are multiple witnesses. There's the friend of Brian's, Ray Lawlor IIRC, that he would call in the middle of the night and play songs for, apparently in a state of extreme excitement.

 There are songs credited to Brian with no Scott involvement (Oxygen, Good Kind of Love, Message Man, O Mi Amor). Before he committed his hideous crime, Scott was very transparent about what his role was, and what he said then lines up with reality. For example, he took "Message Man" and shaped it into "Midnight's Another Day". You can hear the process by comparing the two songs. The music came from Brian, the structure came largely from Scott, the band arrangements were collaborative with a bit more band (Scott, Darian, and Paul), the vocal arrangements are all Brian.

Scott wrote most of the lyrics and helped shape the fragments into songs. He was not in the driver's seat, he was not a mere amanuensis, it was a collaboration.

The conspiracy theories around TLOS stemmed almost entirely from three meagre but concrete facts:

1) Scott sang the incomplete demo for "Southern California"
2) Scott sang part of "California Role"
3) Scott apparently said he did "a whole lot more" than write the lyrics

#3 is explained above, #2 was clearly a stylistic choice (or maybe that song did originate with Scott), and #1 was clearly because they had JUST slapped the song together on the eve of rehearsals and knew it would be the climax of the whole set/project, but they didn't have time to have Brian put together a satisfactory demo vocal. The song wasn't even finished being written yet!

In my very humble and non-expert opinion, the idea that Brian had a late spurt of motivation and creativity to do TLOS is much more believable than the idea that everyone involved in the project is lying. As early as the Christmas album, and partly (I'm sure) due to the rapturous reception of the Smile revival, Brian was really hyped to be in the studio again. Hence the almost continuous flurry of musical activity on his part stretching from the Christmas LP to NPP. And, of course, the motivation and creativity noticeably petered out toward the end of that period.

There is this idea among the conspiracists that the idea of Brian's mastery of songwriting and production is the main selling point of these records, which is why everyone is lying about his lack of involvement. But the thing is, beyond a small number of clued-in fans, the greater music-buying public cares about these things about as much as they care about who writes Madonna's songs. And very few people in Brian's organization stand to gain from minimizing their own involvement in the making of the music (particularly Scott Bennett, whose personal reputation and career are -- justifiably -- destroyed). And no one is claiming a greater role in the music-making for Brian than the evidence bears out, even Brian (from whom the information about the songwriting process with Thomas comes).


Title: Re: Brian’s involvement in solo albums
Post by: phirnis on July 27, 2021, 02:33:24 AM
They really should've used the "All Day" part of TLOS on the album, that's one of my favorites from these sessions. Interesting to hear that Midnight's Another Day is something that Scott Bennett made based on another Brian song. This one has always struck me as sounding a little forced, like they were trying just a tiny bit too hard to come up with a "deep" song like 'Til I Die. I much prefer something like Good Kind of Love which sounds very Brian to me (and that said, I love the entire TLOS album despite some minor flaws).


Title: Re: Brian’s involvement in solo albums
Post by: thetojo on July 27, 2021, 03:17:37 PM

I accept what I'm reading above - don't dispute any of that. And I don't consider myself a conspiracy theorist. All I ever said was what my impression was.

That impression was formed in Part from interviews with Brian.

 To be more specific I recall one where he's talking about the origins of TLOS - because unusually, that album was essentially a commissioned work with a hard deadline - and I recall Brian saying he asked Scott Bennett if they would have the thing they were working on ready in time - that's Brian asking Scott - the driver doesn't usually ask the passenger how fast are we driving . .

Secondly I recall Brian being asked about some of the lyrics (maybe "Midnight's Another Day") and Brian's answer is 'I don't know, Scott wrote that'.


Title: Re: Brian’s involvement in solo albums
Post by: thetojo on July 27, 2021, 03:21:45 PM
They really should've used the "All Day" part of TLOS on the album, that's one of my favorites from these sessions. Interesting to hear that Midnight's Another Day is something that Scott Bennett made based on another Brian song. This one has always struck me as sounding a little forced, like they were trying just a tiny bit too hard to come up with a "deep" song like 'Til I Die. I much prefer something like Good Kind of Love which sounds very Brian to me (and that said, I love the entire TLOS album despite some minor flaws).

It came to me that it's probably titled "Roll Around Heaven" - and yes, it works beautifully, because I made an edit from the snippet available on the DVD or somewhere and slotted it into the place where I think it fit best in the album, and it flows and adds to rather than retracting from the album.

[I could post the way it fits together in an attachment, but not really sure if that's proper (allowed)]


Title: Re: Brian’s involvement in solo albums
Post by: Jim V. on July 27, 2021, 03:35:32 PM
I keep hearing about this “All Day” part of an early TLOS. I was definitely part of The Beach Boys fan community at the time of the concerts and the album. But I have no memory of “All Day” at least as far as TLOS is concerned. Maybe the SMiLE “All Day” yes, but not this one. Can anyone help me out here?


Title: Re: Brian’s involvement in solo albums
Post by: Wirestone on July 27, 2021, 04:07:19 PM
If we're talking about the little chanting piece Brian created based on TLOS, it is on the album.

It's just a hidden snippet after "Southern California." About 20 seconds or so. I've timestamped it here: https://youtu.be/E3taL_EbgTg?t=250


Title: Re: Brian’s involvement in solo albums
Post by: maggie on July 28, 2021, 10:18:23 AM
If we're talking about the little chanting piece Brian created based on TLOS, it is on the album.

It's just a hidden snippet after "Southern California." About 20 seconds or so. I've timestamped it here: https://youtu.be/E3taL_EbgTg?t=250

Yeah, I'm as perplexed by what they're talking about as you are. Maybe they're referring to some other fragment that isn't on the CD?


Title: Re: Brian’s involvement in solo albums
Post by: maggie on July 28, 2021, 10:22:11 AM
Secondly I recall Brian being asked about some of the lyrics (maybe "Midnight's Another Day") and Brian's answer is 'I don't know, Scott wrote that'.

Well it's true, though. Scott wrote almost all of the lyrics for the album. Everything except "Oxygen" and "Good Kind of Love." Brian says almost the exact same thing in his "autobiography" about "Your Imagination" ("I didn't write that line, Joe did").

It would be interesting if Brian genuinely doesn't consider that he wrote "Midnight's Another Day." I mean, in a certain sense he *didn't* write it. He wrote a quite different song that Scott adapted into "Midnight's." But to my knowledge that track is not typical of their process on the rest of the album.



Title: Re: Brian’s involvement in solo albums
Post by: Aomdiddlywalla on July 28, 2021, 12:05:14 PM
Asked if he liked BW 88,       Brian said ‘Yes’
Why?  Answer. ‘Cuz I wrote most of the songs....’.      Nuff said.


Title: Re: Brian’s involvement in solo albums
Post by: PhilSpectre on July 29, 2021, 08:52:30 AM
My question to those who say that it was Joe Thomas who wrote most/all of the new songs on Imagination/TWGMTR/NPP is -

Where are all the other great Joe Thomas songs that he wrote outside of his involvement with Brian?

I am sure that Thomas had input into the creation of this material, perhaps to help 'start Brian off' as it were, but there are some fine songs on those albums and I have never heard of any other songs/ albums with lots of fine songs with a Joe Thomas credit minus BW.


Title: Re: Brian’s involvement in solo albums
Post by: Wirestone on July 29, 2021, 09:59:05 AM
My question to those who say that it was Joe Thomas who wrote most/all of the new songs on Imagination/TWGMTR/NPP is -

Where are all the other great Joe Thomas songs that he wrote outside of his involvement with Brian?

I am sure that Thomas had input into the creation of this material, perhaps to help 'start Brian off' as it were, but there are some fine songs on those albums and I have never heard of any other songs/ albums with lots of fine songs with a Joe Thomas credit minus BW.

This goes for much of the Bennett and Paley material as well. It's pretty clear that Brian played an important role in writing all of the tracks that he's credited with co-writing. Might it have just been contributing a title and a couple of lyrical lines? In some cases, sure. Might it have been writing much of the music and lyrics? In other cases, absolutely.


Title: Re: Brian’s involvement in solo albums
Post by: HeyJude on July 29, 2021, 11:03:59 AM
My question to those who say that it was Joe Thomas who wrote most/all of the new songs on Imagination/TWGMTR/NPP is -

Where are all the other great Joe Thomas songs that he wrote outside of his involvement with Brian?

I am sure that Thomas had input into the creation of this material, perhaps to help 'start Brian off' as it were, but there are some fine songs on those albums and I have never heard of any other songs/ albums with lots of fine songs with a Joe Thomas credit minus BW.

This goes for much of the Bennett and Paley material as well. It's pretty clear that Brian played an important role in writing all of the tracks that he's credited with co-writing. Might it have just been contributing a title and a couple of lyrical lines? In some cases, sure. Might it have been writing much of the music and lyrics? In other cases, absolutely.

Exactly. Even with a lot of well-documented songwriting partnerships with participants who are happy to discuss these things in detail and at length, delineating an exact "split" on the writing is not always easy.

But I think, up to a point, we can trust our ears to some degree. It's no coincidence that songs on TLOS like "Good Kind of Love" and "Message Man", credited solely to Brian, sound much more like unfiltered "Brian", while stuff like "Midnight's Another Day" have some hallmarks that are very much atypical of Brian's writing/style.

I'm not much buying into highlighting Joe Thomas's lack of writing credits outside of Brian to suggest, what, that Thomas didn't have a heavy hand in the writing, often more than 50% to the degree one can even measure such things?

Now, I do think Thomas's instrumental arrangements and production/mixing style is so heavy that he also heavily influences songs *not* written by him to the point where you'd think he did. Listen to what he did to "She Says That She Needs Me" or "Gettin' In Over My Head."

From the moment I heard "That Lucky Old Sun", I liked a lot of it but felt there are definitely chunks of that album, sometimes within specific elements of songs, that sound very un-Brian. Which is okay; a good song is a good song. One of my favorite tracks on Brian's solo albums is "Let It Shine", and I'm pretty sure on the writing side that thing is 75/25 if not 85/15 a Jeff Lynne song. Similarly, I dig the song "That's Why God Made the Radio", but with that many writers, there are some other hands in that song that you can detect. But it's a good song.


Title: Re: Brian’s involvement in solo albums
Post by: Wirestone on July 29, 2021, 11:31:46 AM
TWGMTR (the song) is a situation where I suspect Brian contributed the title and not much else. And yet, that title is the song. He clearly deserves a credit, given that the entire piece is built around it.

For reference, Scott Bennett did a similar thing with his solo track "No Wrong Notes in Heaven," which is based on a Brianism, and Wendy and Carnie did so on their song "Miracle," built around BW blurting out "Am I a fool to expect a miracle?" He gets co-writing credits on both, and he deserves to.

"No Wrong Notes": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTTSVYg6P3M
"Miracle": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOf_359m_sA

Yet, to take alternate examples from the same dang records, the song "Shelter" on TWGMTR (the album) seems to be almost all written by Brian. The chorus could be Joe, but the rest of its weird little sections sound very much like something BW would cook up. Likewise "Everything I Need" on the Carnie and Wendy album has music entirely by Brian. That's why the subject bedevils folk here at times -- there's no single way that Brian writes songs, even at the exact same points chronologically.


Title: Re: Brian’s involvement in solo albums
Post by: HeyJude on July 29, 2021, 12:07:09 PM
Matching up songwriting credits on BB (and solo) records is a huge rabbit hole. I mean, how many songs are credited solely to Mike Love where clearly *someone* had to have some hand in writing some of the music?

Then they went through a stage in the late 60s and earl 70s where, despite having SIX members writing great material, were still trying to buy off other writers for their songs on occasion.

Occasionally there are surprises when early work tapes/demos surface. To use a non-BB example, McCartney a few years ago released a demo on his website of a song he wrote with Elvis Costello, "Back On My Feet." Unlike most of their collaborations, this was one where McCartney had a song partially finished and then gave it to Costello to finish. For years, folks assumed the lyrics were all Costello. Surely, he had taken McCartney's music, struck off his filler lyrics, and wrote very Costello-ish, un-McCartney-like lyrics. But then we finally hear the demo, and hear that McCartney not only had all of the music locked in, but the first portion of the lyric as well.

But yes, we can often make pretty spot on educated guesses as to where a song primarily comes from; "Male Ego" has more Brian going on in it than, say, "Santa Ana Winds."


Title: Re: Brian’s involvement in solo albums
Post by: Matt H on July 29, 2021, 12:22:31 PM
TWGMTR (the song) is a situation where I suspect Brian contributed the title and not much else. And yet, that title is the song. He clearly deserves a credit, given that the entire piece is built around it.

For reference, Scott Bennett did a similar thing with his solo track "No Wrong Notes in Heaven," which is based on a Brianism, and Wendy and Carnie did so on their song "Miracle," built around BW blurting out "Am I a fool to expect a miracle?" He gets co-writing credits on both, and he deserves to.

"No Wrong Notes": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTTSVYg6P3M
"Miracle": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOf_359m_sA

Yet, to take alternate examples from the same dang records, the song "Shelter" on TWGMTR (the album) seems to be almost all written by Brian. The chorus could be Joe, but the rest of its weird little sections sound very much like something BW would cook up. Likewise "Everything I Need" on the Carnie and Wendy album has music entirely by Brian. That's why the subject bedevils folk here at times -- there's no single way that Brian writes songs, even at the exact same points chronologically.

I thought Brian's part of No Wrong Notes was the shorten' bread part.


Title: Re: Brian’s involvement in solo albums
Post by: maggie on July 29, 2021, 01:06:34 PM
TWGMTR (the song) is a situation where I suspect Brian contributed the title and not much else. And yet, that title is the song. He clearly deserves a credit, given that the entire piece is built around it.

Yet, to take alternate examples from the same dang records, the song "Shelter" on TWGMTR (the album) seems to be almost all written by Brian. The chorus could be Joe, but the rest of its weird little sections sound very much like something BW would cook up.

I believe it has been acknowledged that Brian's credit on "That's Why God..." is a courtesy credit for coming up with the title, and for the verses being derived from "Keep an Eye on Summer."

It's funny that you ascribe the chorus of "Shelter" to Joe Thomas, considering that it is clearly very closely based on "Thinkin' 'Bout You Baby"/"Darlin'". I believe "Shelter" is indeed one of the songs that Joe Thomas himself ascribed largely to Brian.

I gather that the opening verse lyrics and melody of "Summer's Gone" are 100% Brian and then Jon Bon Jovi came up with the rest of the song including all subsequent melodic variations.

Joe Thomas has a signature ascending/descending chord figure -- "Whatever Happened" comes to mind -- that I think typifies his "brainstorming" process and helps identify the songs he initiated.


Title: Re: Brian’s involvement in solo albums
Post by: Pablo. on July 29, 2021, 09:18:50 PM
TWGMTR (the song) is a situation where I suspect Brian contributed the title and not much else. And yet, that title is the song. He clearly deserves a credit, given that the entire piece is built around it.

Yet, to take alternate examples from the same dang records, the song "Shelter" on TWGMTR (the album) seems to be almost all written by Brian. The chorus could be Joe, but the rest of its weird little sections sound very much like something BW would cook up.

I believe it has been acknowledged that Brian's credit on "That's Why God..." is a courtesy credit for coming up with the title, and for the verses being derived from "Keep an Eye on Summer."


More like "Your Summer Dream", actually.

Matching up songwriting credits on BB (and solo) records is a huge rabbit hole. I mean, how many songs are credited solely to Mike Love where clearly *someone* had to have some hand in writing some of the music?


On the latest Uncut magazine, Al Jardine seems to imply that Daryl Dragon should have gotten a credit on Don't Go Near The Water: "Daryl Dragon helped a lot too. He was the piano assistant and we had those crazy little chords going on there" I guess he was talking about the dissonant chords at the beginning, and the coda. Obviously they considered all of that as arranging.


Title: Re: Brian’s involvement in solo albums
Post by: phirnis on July 30, 2021, 12:19:46 AM
Is it just me or does TWGMTR sound a bit like Why? off the Made in California box set (written by Brian according to the credits)?


Title: Re: Brian’s involvement in solo albums
Post by: Matt H on July 30, 2021, 04:44:29 AM
TWGMTR (the song) is a situation where I suspect Brian contributed the title and not much else. And yet, that title is the song. He clearly deserves a credit, given that the entire piece is built around it.

Yet, to take alternate examples from the same dang records, the song "Shelter" on TWGMTR (the album) seems to be almost all written by Brian. The chorus could be Joe, but the rest of its weird little sections sound very much like something BW would cook up.

I believe it has been acknowledged that Brian's credit on "That's Why God..." is a courtesy credit for coming up with the title, and for the verses being derived from "Keep an Eye on Summer."

It's funny that you ascribe the chorus of "Shelter" to Joe Thomas, considering that it is clearly very closely based on "Thinkin' 'Bout You Baby"/"Darlin'". I believe "Shelter" is indeed one of the songs that Joe Thomas himself ascribed largely to Brian.

I gather that the opening verse lyrics and melody of "Summer's Gone" are 100% Brian and then Jon Bon Jovi came up with the rest of the song including all subsequent melodic variations.

Joe Thomas has a signature ascending/descending chord figure -- "Whatever Happened" comes to mind -- that I think typifies his "brainstorming" process and helps identify the songs he initiated.

On Summer's Gone, I thought I had read somewhere that Jon Bon Jovi wrote some of the lyrics for the last verse, and that was it, but I can't remember where I read that.


Title: Re: Brian’s involvement in solo albums
Post by: maggie on July 30, 2021, 05:48:35 AM
TWGMTR (the song) is a situation where I suspect Brian contributed the title and not much else. And yet, that title is the song. He clearly deserves a credit, given that the entire piece is built around it.

Yet, to take alternate examples from the same dang records, the song "Shelter" on TWGMTR (the album) seems to be almost all written by Brian. The chorus could be Joe, but the rest of its weird little sections sound very much like something BW would cook up.

I believe it has been acknowledged that Brian's credit on "That's Why God..." is a courtesy credit for coming up with the title, and for the verses being derived from "Keep an Eye on Summer."


More like "Your Summer Dream", actually.


You're absolutely right, the verse starts the same as "Your Summer Dream". It's the chorus that's similar to "Keep an Eye on Summer."


Title: Re: Brian’s involvement in solo albums
Post by: Wirestone on July 30, 2021, 06:40:20 AM
We’re all ignoring the “You Only Live Twice” inspiration for the TWGMTR hook.  ;D


Title: Re: Brian’s involvement in solo albums
Post by: HeyJude on July 30, 2021, 07:08:26 AM
Even without having intricate records of every single songwriting session, I think it's safe to say that in a world where Mike Love gets credit for "goodnight baby, sleep tight baby", and Matthew Fisher gets a songwriting credit on "A Whiter Shade of Pale", there are a bunch of folks over the years who maybe should have received some credit on songs, or certainly feel that way.

I've always used as a rare example of the BBs *not* being litigious that Al Jardine surely could contend he should have seen a co-arranger credit along with Brian on the BB version of "Sloop John B." Al has also mentioned, in turn, that Dennis helped with the arrangement on "Lady Lynda."

It has often been noted that Brian and Carl rarely wrote songs together for whatever strange reason. Yet, I think they probably worked in close concert sometimes in the studio, and some of those things could have yielded co-writing credits under different circumstances.

I still suspect that any song that has Mike's name as the sole songwriter probably had a notable helping hand from either one or more BBs, or some other musician or collaborator or producer.

There are many cases in the Beatles' catalog where it's tough to not say, based on some standards, that George Martin or George Harrison should have gotten a co-credit on a Lennon/McCartney song here and there. And it goes both ways; an argument can be made that McCartney had a large hand once they got in the studio on two of George's big standards, "While My Guitar...." and "Something."

We know of cases like Ringo's "It Don't Come Easy" where George Harrison probably wrote most of the song himself, yet didn't care that he wasn't credited (Ringo even says George co-wrote it). We have George on film in "Let It Be" clearly molding the chord changes to Ringo's "Octopus's Garden." Why didn't George care? Lots of possible reasons, but one is that, sometimes, when *everybody* is getting insanely rich off the whole thing, then those credits don't matter to them.

It's also interesting when the opposite happens; when someone's name is put on a song that all agree they had *very little* of a hand in. And it can be beneficial to do that. Do you want 100% royalties on a song nobody cares about, or 50% royalties of a song with, say, Brian Wilson's name on it, where some fans will seek it out?


Title: Re: Brian’s involvement in solo albums
Post by: WillJC on July 30, 2021, 07:34:04 AM

I've always used as a rare example of the BBs *not* being litigious that Al Jardine surely could contend he should have seen a co-arranger credit along with Brian on the BB version of "Sloop John B."

Not that this has anything to do with the rest of the thread... but the most Al could claim as a contribution for the "Sloop" arrangement is playing it uptempo on a piano in eighths. The change to the chords that Al often talks about isn't something that he actually came up with himself or that Brian even used.

RE Midnight, the music was a collaborative effort between Brian and Scott Bennett taking off from the original Beatle/Message Man foundation, not Bennett alone - although he probably did more of the steering from that point on. At the least, we know that's Brian's chord change under "no shades of grey". There's usually a freely-given answer as to what Brian contributed to any given song if you dig for it... stopping at NPP.


Title: Re: Brian’s involvement in solo albums
Post by: HeyJude on July 30, 2021, 08:47:22 AM

Not that this has anything to do with the rest of the thread... but the most Al could claim as a contribution for the "Sloop" arrangement is playing it uptempo on a piano in eighths. The change to the chords that Al often talks about isn't something that he actually came up with himself or that Brian even used.


I was only saying that, given what others have contributed to songs and received credit for, Al could have easily been done a solid and given co-arranger credit.

I'm not sure if Brian contributed nothing but the title to the track TWGMTR, but if that's the case, then in my mind based on that arbitrary criterion, Al should have a co-arranger credit on "Sloop John B." And Brian should have a credit on "Goin' to the Beach", and heck, maybe even Bruce should have a co-writing credit on "Goin' On."

What Brian did vis-a-vis songwriting credits back a million years ago, and the tact with which individual members and the collective group (and corporation) approached songwriting and songwriting credits, helps inform what they would continue to do decades and decades later.



Title: Re: Brian’s involvement in solo albums
Post by: sloopjohnb72 on July 30, 2021, 09:53:45 AM
Absolutely nothing from Brian's arrangement of Sloop John B came from Al. All that Al did was suggest the song for Brian to record.


Title: Re: Brian’s involvement in solo albums
Post by: pobbard on September 20, 2021, 08:48:09 AM
Asked if he liked BW 88,       Brian said ‘Yes’
Why?  Answer. ‘Cuz I wrote most of the songs....’.      Nuff said.

And FWIW, on the "rough mixes" version of "Rio Grande", you can hear Brian running the recording session.


Title: Re: Brian’s involvement in solo albums
Post by: DonnyL on September 20, 2021, 10:27:34 AM
IMO, it's never been about Brian's capability- it's his desire and drive to complete a project.

The most relevant question that has not been asked in this thread is: WHY has Brian "needed" collaborators to finish projects since after Friends?

The answer as far as I can tell is either Brian does not have an interest in completing projects, or the projects as he would wish to complete are thwarted by outside forces who deem his version of completed as somehow unacceptable. Adult Child, "Everything I Need", the Paley tracks. Tons of examples over the years of things that are "too weird" or too demo-like, or with "bad singing" etc. ... yet by all accounts, those are things that Brian was doing his own way.

Why was the session in which Brian got together w/ Tony Asher, Hal Blaine, and his daughters ... and ran through a track that sounded just like classic Brian Wilson, not released? Why did we get a limp piece of crap instead?


Title: Re: Brian’s involvement in solo albums
Post by: BJL on September 22, 2021, 12:08:14 PM
The most relevant question that has not been asked in this thread is: WHY has Brian "needed" collaborators to finish projects since after Friends?

Brian always used collaborators, his entire career. And it makes sense. Very, very few individuals in music history - at least before the rise of infinite-track digital recording technology - did what Brian did. He was the writer, producer, arranger, *and* performer of his best work. It's just a lot, and Brian always depended on having talented people around to finish up the lyrics, contribute to the instrumental arrangements, sing some of the songs, etc. And unfortunately, "how good were the collaborators" is simply a major determinant of how fully Brian has ever been able to express his talent. I mean, Van Dyke Parks and the Wrecking Crew! Or Carl and Dennis Wilson ca. 1969! These are the kinds of collaborators you dream about! Joe Thomas... talented man in many, many respects and I'm not knocking him, especially as a co-writer, but if Brian's contributions to Imagination had been matched with a more artistically and less commercially driven sensibility, it could have been an absolutely incredible record.

The thing that stands out to me about Brian's solo work, is that he is obviously still capable of writing, arranging, producing, and even singing at a level damn close to his 1960s peak. He just can't seem to pull it all out for the same song. The arrangements and performances on the Gershwin album are stunning. Some of the songs on That Lucky Old Sun are breathtaking. But in my opinion, only on a few tracks, Melt Away, the suite at the end of That's Why God Made the Radio, have we gotten world class Brian performances on top of world class Brian songs with world class Brian arrangements and production. And for the suite, having the other Beach Boys there to share the vocals was a not-inconsiderable part of that.

But honestly, I am just so happy and feel so lucky that we have any of it! Any new Brian songs, any new Brian arrangements, any new Brian productions! They don't need to be perfect, because the inspiration and unique sensibility Brian brings to music seems to always find a way to shine through, and no matter how good or bad or involved or uninvolved the collaborators are, that is the magic ingredient, and Brian still has it in spades.


Title: Re: Brian’s involvement in solo albums
Post by: SurfRiderHawaii on September 26, 2021, 03:25:06 PM
Even without having intricate records of every single songwriting session, I think it's safe to say that in a world where Mike Love gets credit for "goodnight baby, sleep tight baby", and Matthew Fisher gets a songwriting credit on "A Whiter Shade of Pale", there are a bunch of folks over the years who maybe should have received some credit on songs, or certainly feel that way.

I've always used as a rare example of the BBs *not* being litigious that Al Jardine surely could contend he should have seen a co-arranger credit along with Brian on the BB version of "Sloop John B." Al has also mentioned, in turn, that Dennis helped with the arrangement on "Lady Lynda."

It has often been noted that Brian and Carl rarely wrote songs together for whatever strange reason. Yet, I think they probably worked in close concert sometimes in the studio, and some of those things could have yielded co-writing credits under different circumstances.

I still suspect that any song that has Mike's name as the sole songwriter probably had a notable helping hand from either one or more BBs, or some other musician or collaborator or producer.

There are many cases in the Beatles' catalog where it's tough to not say, based on some standards, that George Martin or George Harrison should have gotten a co-credit on a Lennon/McCartney song here and there. And it goes both ways; an argument can be made that McCartney had a large hand once they got in the studio on two of George's big standards, "While My Guitar...." and "Something."

We know of cases like Ringo's "It Don't Come Easy" where George Harrison probably wrote most of the song himself, yet didn't care that he wasn't credited (Ringo even says George co-wrote it). We have George on film in "Let It Be" clearly molding the chord changes to Ringo's "Octopus's Garden." Why didn't George care? Lots of possible reasons, but one is that, sometimes, when *everybody* is getting insanely rich off the whole thing, then those credits don't matter to them.

It's also interesting when the opposite happens; when someone's name is put on a song that all agree they had *very little* of a hand in. And it can be beneficial to do that. Do you want 100% royalties on a song nobody cares about, or 50% royalties of a song with, say, Brian Wilson's name on it, where some fans will seek it out?

Speaking of not getting songwriting credits, would you say Dennis and “You Are So Beautiful” to be the most infamous example?


Title: Re: Brian’s involvement in solo albums
Post by: Wirestone on September 26, 2021, 04:36:24 PM
Why has Brian needed help finishing things since the late 60s? That was when he became severely mental ill and was received the first in a series of treatments that damaged his brain. No more and no less.

The concept that some nefarious outside forces are hiding or obscuring Brian’s great work is bullshit. I have been fortunate enough to know folks on his orbit — as have many here — and everyone would be thrilled if he created a bunch of masters on his own. He has the band, money, and record company interest to do so. The fact that he hasn’t — beyond the great work he’s actually done with collaborators — proves the point.


Title: Re: Brian’s involvement in solo albums
Post by: DonnyL on September 26, 2021, 07:19:53 PM
Why has Brian needed help finishing things since the late 60s? That was when he became severely mental ill and was received the first in a series of treatments that damaged his brain. No more and no less.

The concept that some nefarious outside forces are hiding or obscuring Brian’s great work is bullshit. I have been fortunate enough to know folks on his orbit — as have many here — and everyone would be thrilled if he created a bunch of masters on his own. He has the band, money, and record company interest to do so. The fact that he hasn’t — beyond the great work he’s actually done with collaborators — proves the point.

Well there’s lots more on that point, and I’m not certain the “severely mentally ill” angle is a stand-alone element.

I put “needed” in quotes because I don’t believe he needed any outside “help” to finish a project. I am not sure he was particularly interested in finishing projects after Friends, with some exceptions here and there, like “Break Away” and 15 Big Ones. He liked starting them and participating in many I’m sure.

And I don’t blame him. Carl finished Love You for whatever reason. Then Brian himself finished the next record, and it was rejected. So we got MIU instead of Adult Child? Yet you say blaming “nefarious forces” is bullshit. That’s ignoring a big part of the story IMO.


Title: Re: Brian’s involvement in solo albums
Post by: DonnyL on September 26, 2021, 07:20:59 PM
The most relevant question that has not been asked in this thread is: WHY has Brian "needed" collaborators to finish projects since after Friends?

Brian always used collaborators, his entire career. And it makes sense. Very, very few individuals in music history - at least before the rise of infinite-track digital recording technology - did what Brian did. He was the writer, producer, arranger, *and* performer of his best work. It's just a lot, and Brian always depended on having talented people around to finish up the lyrics, contribute to the instrumental arrangements, sing some of the songs, etc. And unfortunately, "how good were the collaborators" is simply a major determinant of how fully Brian has ever been able to express his talent. I mean, Van Dyke Parks and the Wrecking Crew! Or Carl and Dennis Wilson ca. 1969! These are the kinds of collaborators you dream about! Joe Thomas... talented man in many, many respects and I'm not knocking him, especially as a co-writer, but if Brian's contributions to Imagination had been matched with a more artistically and less commercially driven sensibility, it could have been an absolutely incredible record.

The thing that stands out to me about Brian's solo work, is that he is obviously still capable of writing, arranging, producing, and even singing at a level damn close to his 1960s peak. He just can't seem to pull it all out for the same song. The arrangements and performances on the Gershwin album are stunning. Some of the songs on That Lucky Old Sun are breathtaking. But in my opinion, only on a few tracks, Melt Away, the suite at the end of That's Why God Made the Radio, have we gotten world class Brian performances on top of world class Brian songs with world class Brian arrangements and production. And for the suite, having the other Beach Boys there to share the vocals was a not-inconsiderable part of that.

But honestly, I am just so happy and feel so lucky that we have any of it! Any new Brian songs, any new Brian arrangements, any new Brian productions! They don't need to be perfect, because the inspiration and unique sensibility Brian brings to music seems to always find a way to shine through, and no matter how good or bad or involved or uninvolved the collaborators are, that is the magic ingredient, and Brian still has it in spades.

I’m referring to completion of work, not creative collaborators.


Title: Re: Brian’s involvement in solo albums
Post by: HeyJude on September 27, 2021, 09:46:42 AM
I think there are also a few different types of "completion." Needing help to complete compositions is different from needing help to fully realize and release a project.

Pretty much all of the Beach Boys, individually and collectively, have, since some time in the 80s at the very least, usually needed some outside influence/agent/manager/promoter/fixer to help push projects to completion *and release.*

Joe Thomas did this for a number of Brian projects, and did so for the 50th reunion tour and ancillary projects. Thomas also did so on the writing side as well. Brian has not often had that type of collaborator; there's a reason Joe Thomas got s**t out the door numerous times while Andy Paley knocked out dozens of songs with Brian only for them to be shelved (and then eventually trickle out over the years).

Brian and all of the other members collectively and individually have needed the organizational/A&R/business push to get things released. The closest they've come in the last several decades to pushing a project along mostly on their own would be things like Al Jardine putting out some early solo stuff via CDBaby and in some cases direct sales.

Back to the creative side of things, I think the issue isn't even so much *how much* help Brian needs, it's more how that help comes, and how much it colors the work. To use my go-to example, "Message Man" sounds much like "pure Brian" than "Midnight's Another Day."

I think Brian, certainly in the last decade or two, could have sat down at a piano and pounded out a bunch of solo takes of true "solo" compositions. But I don't think he would feel like those are "records", and it would be something fans might love, but not so much everybody else. We as fans (sometimes) enjoy the quirks of a "Male Ego" or "Message Man" or whatever. To get to fully-realized, fleshed-out songs that turn into recordings that turn into a *released album*, he has clearly sought out (and thus, I think, it's fair to say, has *needed*) some help.


Title: Re: Brian’s involvement in solo albums
Post by: guitarfool2002 on September 27, 2021, 11:53:56 AM
I think there are several precedents to consider going back to 1961 regarding Brian and collaborations. In terms of songwriting, he's always used collaborators going back to Mike and Gary Usher in the earliest days. When he has song ideas that he wants or needs input to flesh out, or lyric ideas and subject matter where he thinks someone else's unique perspective and skills can deliver a better song, he will go to a collaborator. And if he has something to say in a song and has the lyrics too, he'll do it himself. So in terms of writing, that hasn't changed at all since "Surfin".

With production and finishing the entire project, we have to look back over 50 years ago and see what happened. Brian specifically said he wanted to drop out of the production race, and hand the ball to the other guys in the band to run with it and add their work and input too. At that time the guy was burnt out, he was tired of being questioned and challenged (see Marilyn's comments in the Don Was film), and he gave more responsibility for completing the songs to others in the band.

It established a different workflow than what he had been doing up to 1968, and there seemed to be something like a process bubbling under making these records where Brian would be involved to a point, and others would then grab the production steering wheel and do the finishing touches. Of course that wasn't on every single project, but it was on a majority and this process continued well into the present day.

So I know it's stating the obvious but there is a precedent and Brian's working methods really haven't changed much since 1968. What he doesn't finish, others finish.

I agree with some of the comments above regarding the production process, but there is a difference between saying he "needs" outside collaborators and suggesting this working method is pretty much the same things he has been doing since at least 1968 in terms of making records. If the process has worked for over 50 years, and product gets released pretty consistently, maybe the mindset is why change something that's working and getting product out the door and into the stores?

I also think a lot had to do with those comments from Marilyn, where at one point he just got fed up with the hassles (and hassling from others) and said if you guys think you can do it, here it is, and he pulled back...and in the process established a working method that worked for him, and it included collaborators or others finishing up the project after Brian set it up. Kind of like a head chef and a sous chef in the kitchen, one has the concept for the food and gets the main ingredients working, and the other finishes it off to be sent to the customers.



Title: Re: Brian’s involvement in solo albums
Post by: guitarfool2002 on September 27, 2021, 12:07:13 PM
I think there are also a few different types of "completion." Needing help to complete compositions is different from needing help to fully realize and release a project.

Pretty much all of the Beach Boys, individually and collectively, have, since some time in the 80s at the very least, usually needed some outside influence/agent/manager/promoter/fixer to help push projects to completion *and release.*

Joe Thomas did this for a number of Brian projects, and did so for the 50th reunion tour and ancillary projects. Thomas also did so on the writing side as well. Brian has not often had that type of collaborator; there's a reason Joe Thomas got s**t out the door numerous times while Andy Paley knocked out dozens of songs with Brian only for them to be shelved (and then eventually trickle out over the years).

Brian and all of the other members collectively and individually have needed the organizational/A&R/business push to get things released. The closest they've come in the last several decades to pushing a project along mostly on their own would be things like Al Jardine putting out some early solo stuff via CDBaby and in some cases direct sales.

Back to the creative side of things, I think the issue isn't even so much *how much* help Brian needs, it's more how that help comes, and how much it colors the work. To use my go-to example, "Message Man" sounds much like "pure Brian" than "Midnight's Another Day."

I think Brian, certainly in the last decade or two, could have sat down at a piano and pounded out a bunch of solo takes of true "solo" compositions. But I don't think he would feel like those are "records", and it would be something fans might love, but not so much everybody else. We as fans (sometimes) enjoy the quirks of a "Male Ego" or "Message Man" or whatever. To get to fully-realized, fleshed-out songs that turn into recordings that turn into a *released album*, he has clearly sought out (and thus, I think, it's fair to say, has *needed*) some help.

I know you've said before, and I agree, that without Joe Thomas there would probably not have been a C50. He came to the table with a business plan that hit on all the necessary elements to stage the tour and get the releases in the stores, and it was like a ready-made situation where the band had to sign the papers and the machine started running. That's pretty impressive, and of course we can agree or disagree about the results (Mike sure disagreed after the fact...), but you're right: Joe came in and the job got done.

I think there are issues among some pockets of the fan base - if they're really fans - who have taken on this kind of behavior where it's almost a knee-jerk reaction whenever a new Brian project is announced to critique the concept well before the execution and delivery, and make a lot of hay over what they think Brian should be doing and releasing versus what the man actually does. It's been a consistent pattern for several decades now, and I hope Brian himself tunes it out at this point and chalks it up to those people being who they are and that's what they do, and NOT indicative of the majority of the fan base. But it does get ridiculous to have it appear like clockwork every time the man announces something new, and the same peanut gallery seems to come out with the comments why it's not going to be good. We saw it just this past month with the piano album, and it's happened on everything he's released going back to at least the Christmas album.

So I think Brian does what Brian does - If an idea is mentioned or pitched to him and he likes the idea, at this point he'll do it. And I think there is also an element of just not giving a s**t what people think after all the times he's done something and had it rejected as inappropriate, not good enough, not commercial enough, etc. He was approached to do a Gershwin project, he did it. Simple as that.


Title: Re: Brian’s involvement in solo albums
Post by: Join The Human Race on September 27, 2021, 05:38:40 PM
Just referring to his solo work; I think, usually, Brian has been more of a participant than collaborator; but there are times when he does contribute.

For 1988 and Sweet Insanity, I think this is pretty Brian, despite the constant presence of Landy. It sounds Brian; just how Love You and Adult/Child sound like Brian. Landy's presence is felt, but musically, it sounds like the guy who made Love You in the 70s'; all made up for the 80s. It may be easy to say, well, these two albums were really made by Landy, but Landy couldn't emulate anything like Brian musically speaking. I'm sure it was hell working with Landy, but the overall sound of these two are Brian.

Now there were a lot of other collaborators; chief among them Andy Paley. My view about Paley is that he was almost like a life coach for Brian. He could get Brian amped up and rolling; the ideas would start bouncing back between them. Brian doesn't get that comfortable with many people; so these type of collaborations I'm totally fine with. Brian is still contributing to the sound of the album, in addition to co-writing and co-producing. I think that's why some of the Paley material had a lot of promise as well. I don't need Brian to be a one man wrecking crew like it's 1966. IF he needs a collaborator, that's fine; as long as he is enjoying it. From what I've read Brian really did like the material they came up with. However, the Beach Boys did not and I recall Melinda calling the material great for therapy, but not for release.

And, in my view, that's the last time we got anything original from Brian. The Don Was soundtrack and Orange Crate Art are clearly more guest than anything else, though he did arrange the vocals for OCA, it was still mostly a VDP project. The Joe Thomas material has always seemed really artificially Brian. Wasn't the process record Brian for a few hours and try to generate a new song from it? Everything about Imagination is over the top in its appeal to 1990s Adult Contemporary. Same with GIOTH; it sounded dated when it was released. Has Brian ever sounded pumped up when talking about either one of these albums? I've not seen it. From what I read, Brian was more or less forced to work with Joe Thomas. The late 90s period is weird; Brian stops working with Paley, makes AC with Thomas, while relocating to St. Charles, Illinois, to create the album. (I think they built a studio there, too) Then by 1999, weren't he and Thomas in the middle of suing each other? It's like Brian never lived in St. Charles at all. It gives me vibes of Brian being forced to go to Iowa in winter 1977 to make music. Come on Brian, get up, make some music for your cousins, friends, and brothers. And none of that Adult/Child crap! Come on Brian, get up, make some music with Joe Thomas. And none of that Chain Reaction of Love crap!

BWPS was mostly based off the live show but it did lead to Brian working on TLOS with Scott; Brian was coming up with some original material. The Disney and Gershwin albums were nothing original, but Brian was into singing the material. Even though TWGMTR is a BB album, I'll include it here due to the heavy presence of Joe Thomas. (First, why is he back after the lawsuits and the fighting?) There are some really good songs on that album, but I really don't know what exactly Brian did in making the album. It's a collection of old material from the 90s, with a few newer songs and Mike's Daybreak. I want to believe Brian had a hand in From There to Back Again, but I easily accept the entire production and composing could be Joe Thomas. I can't tell exactly where Brian is; I can tell places where Brian is being emulated. The album seemed like it was put together without the Beach Boys until it was time for vocals. I can understand why Mike had his issues with how the album was made because it doesn't seem like a real Beach Boys album. Was there any chance of anyone writing together? Al? Bruce? David? It seemed tailor made to promote the 50th reunion tour; that's it. No Pier Pressure seems even less like Brian, even though there are a few good tracks. Take into consideration interviews of people saying Brian just sits there, says and does nothing in the studio. Someone is making the music, but I don't believe it's always Brian these days. That's fine. Brian doesn't owe me anything. I just hope Brian likes making these albums and doing these tours. Maybe he does and he just goes with the flow, but there's also the other side of Brian we hardly see. He did have to postpone several shows for mental health reasons. I imagine even with the best treatment, he probably still suffers a lot from mental illness. Those reasons alone I don't expect him to create anymore. He should play music whenever he wants to and it doesn't have to be recorded. Just let loose.


Title: Re: Brian’s involvement in solo albums
Post by: c-man on September 28, 2021, 05:52:31 AM
Brian and Van Dyke both said the latter did all the vocal arrangements for OCA.


Title: Re: Brian’s involvement in solo albums
Post by: guitarfool2002 on September 28, 2021, 08:12:31 AM
Just referring to his solo work; I think, usually, Brian has been more of a participant than collaborator; but there are times when he does contribute.

For 1988 and Sweet Insanity, I think this is pretty Brian, despite the constant presence of Landy. It sounds Brian; just how Love You and Adult/Child sound like Brian. Landy's presence is felt, but musically, it sounds like the guy who made Love You in the 70s'; all made up for the 80s. It may be easy to say, well, these two albums were really made by Landy, but Landy couldn't emulate anything like Brian musically speaking. I'm sure it was hell working with Landy, but the overall sound of these two are Brian.

Now there were a lot of other collaborators; chief among them Andy Paley. My view about Paley is that he was almost like a life coach for Brian. He could get Brian amped up and rolling; the ideas would start bouncing back between them. Brian doesn't get that comfortable with many people; so these type of collaborations I'm totally fine with. Brian is still contributing to the sound of the album, in addition to co-writing and co-producing. I think that's why some of the Paley material had a lot of promise as well. I don't need Brian to be a one man wrecking crew like it's 1966. IF he needs a collaborator, that's fine; as long as he is enjoying it. From what I've read Brian really did like the material they came up with. However, the Beach Boys did not and I recall Melinda calling the material great for therapy, but not for release.

And, in my view, that's the last time we got anything original from Brian. The Don Was soundtrack and Orange Crate Art are clearly more guest than anything else, though he did arrange the vocals for OCA, it was still mostly a VDP project. The Joe Thomas material has always seemed really artificially Brian. Wasn't the process record Brian for a few hours and try to generate a new song from it? Everything about Imagination is over the top in its appeal to 1990s Adult Contemporary. Same with GIOTH; it sounded dated when it was released. Has Brian ever sounded pumped up when talking about either one of these albums? I've not seen it. From what I read, Brian was more or less forced to work with Joe Thomas. The late 90s period is weird; Brian stops working with Paley, makes AC with Thomas, while relocating to St. Charles, Illinois, to create the album. (I think they built a studio there, too) Then by 1999, weren't he and Thomas in the middle of suing each other? It's like Brian never lived in St. Charles at all. It gives me vibes of Brian being forced to go to Iowa in winter 1977 to make music. Come on Brian, get up, make some music for your cousins, friends, and brothers. And none of that Adult/Child crap! Come on Brian, get up, make some music with Joe Thomas. And none of that Chain Reaction of Love crap!

BWPS was mostly based off the live show but it did lead to Brian working on TLOS with Scott; Brian was coming up with some original material. The Disney and Gershwin albums were nothing original, but Brian was into singing the material. Even though TWGMTR is a BB album, I'll include it here due to the heavy presence of Joe Thomas. (First, why is he back after the lawsuits and the fighting?) There are some really good songs on that album, but I really don't know what exactly Brian did in making the album. It's a collection of old material from the 90s, with a few newer songs and Mike's Daybreak. I want to believe Brian had a hand in From There to Back Again, but I easily accept the entire production and composing could be Joe Thomas. I can't tell exactly where Brian is; I can tell places where Brian is being emulated. The album seemed like it was put together without the Beach Boys until it was time for vocals. I can understand why Mike had his issues with how the album was made because it doesn't seem like a real Beach Boys album. Was there any chance of anyone writing together? Al? Bruce? David? It seemed tailor made to promote the 50th reunion tour; that's it. No Pier Pressure seems even less like Brian, even though there are a few good tracks. Take into consideration interviews of people saying Brian just sits there, says and does nothing in the studio. Someone is making the music, but I don't believe it's always Brian these days. That's fine. Brian doesn't owe me anything. I just hope Brian likes making these albums and doing these tours. Maybe he does and he just goes with the flow, but there's also the other side of Brian we hardly see. He did have to postpone several shows for mental health reasons. I imagine even with the best treatment, he probably still suffers a lot from mental illness. Those reasons alone I don't expect him to create anymore. He should play music whenever he wants to and it doesn't have to be recorded. Just let loose.


There are a few points here that are either painted with too broad of a brush, or not complete or accurate, and that's not a critique but just an observation!  :)

I think as a few of us wrote in this discussion, Joe came to the table with a business plan for the 50th that encapsulated all aspects of the year 2012 including recording new material, the tour itself, and subsequent multimedia releases and promotions. That's huge for a band who had a hard time getting in the same room together let alone getting their sh*t together enough to stage something like the C50 project. And again I'll say, like it or not, it happened and they pulled it off.

I think what's missing is that Joe brings to the table the multimedia and marketing aspect of it, where if the artist wants not only a new album but also a TV/video special, a tour, and other promotional projects besides simply a new album, Joe has a plan in place bundling all that stuff together. He did the same for Brian with Imagination, he did the same for the group earlier with "Stars & Stripes", and again with Brian for the NPP album that included the Las Vegas TV special. He basically brought the same plan to the table for C50, and the group signed on.

As far as Mike's issues with the TWGMTR album, he is credited as "Executive Producer" and was one-third of the LLC corporation called "50 Big Ones" formed for the 50th tour along with Joe and Brian. So Mike had more say than others involved over what was planned out, and what the album would be...He signed off on it, didn't he? If he didn't like it, he was exec producer of the album and part of the "board" for the LLC overseeing everything and had a voice while it was going on.

Again I think some of the statements above about the solo works are a little too broad - If we wanted to be historically accurate to an obsessive degree, we could go song-by-song on each solo project and people could clarify exactly what was done for each song. Especially TLOS and NPP, to suggest Brian was more of an observer or would just sit there while others did the work just isn't accurate across the board. But those clarifications would have to be made by those who were there to witness the sessions. Just consider how many hours are spent on a song, and before a studio is even booked to record the tracks for the album...sessions and recordings happen that are NOT logged or on a budget sheet somewhere. Like the sessions Brian was doing with Danny Hutton and when Tommy Morgan was called in to play harmonica...Brian was fully involved in those and others. And consider if someone walks into Ocean Way (or whatever other studio) for a few hours and catches them doing a vocal overdub, yes there is a great possibility Brian and other musicians would be doing a lot of sitting around.

As someone who was in the studio business for a bit of time, I can vouch for the fact that a lot of studio time is spent sitting and not actually playing as other things are happening. In fact I'd go out on a limb and say more time is spent sitting and waiting than actually playing or singing. So take some of those reports with the appropriate grain of salt. And yes indeed, there may have been some cases where whoever was in the studio saw Brian sitting and waiting as others worked - But that is part of the process for everyone involved.  :)

As far as the Paley sessions, don't forget the involvement of Don Was. Ultimately Don had been working up and recording the Wilson/Paley material with the band rather than just as solo Brian material, he said both Brian and Andy were fully involved in recording those tracks, and then next thing anyone knew Carl vetoed "Soul Searchin" and Mike brought in Joe Thomas and all activity shifted to Stars & Stripes, and Don had nothing to do with them anymore.



I also have to remember a time when people who were following all this stuff back to the early 90's had a notion of Brian doing a new project more in line with Smile/Smiley Smile that might end up sounding in their minds like an Animal Collective or Elephant 6 label project or something, and perhaps that kind of hope or expectation is what drove (or continues to drive) the letdowns and disappointments when a Brian project comes out and it's not all weird and goofy like "Smiley Smile 2" or something.



Title: Re: Brian’s involvement in solo albums
Post by: FreakySmiley on September 28, 2021, 10:12:54 AM
I also have to remember a time when people who were following all this stuff back to the early 90's had a notion of Brian doing a new project more in line with Smile/Smiley Smile that might end up sounding in their minds like an Animal Collective or Elephant 6 label project or something, and perhaps that kind of hope or expectation is what drove (or continues to drive) the letdowns and disappointments when a Brian project comes out and it's not all weird and goofy like "Smiley Smile 2" or something.

Big facts. And this phenomenon doesn't seem to plague too many of his contemporaries in the same way. I don't think there have been too many people complaining about McCartney's solo albums not being something along the lines of 'Sgt. Pepper 2' (didn't he actually do something like that in the 80s and NOT release it?) Most people seemed to like the relatively recent album by The Who, even though it's certainly not 'Tommy 2' or 'Quadrophenia 2'.

Funny you'd bring up Animal Collective and Elephant 6 though, obviously for musical/aesthetic comparison, but it gets me thinking about how a lot of Animal Collective fans have spent 10+ years complaining about not getting 'Merriweather Post Pavilion 2' and a lot of Neutral Milk Hotel fans have been dreaming about 'In the Aeroplane Over the Sea 2' for almost 25 years! People like us just want it all, sometimes  :lol


Title: Re: Brian’s involvement in solo albums
Post by: BJL on September 28, 2021, 04:17:44 PM
I feel deeply compelled to come to the defense of Imagination and its ilk. Maybe I just have an unhealthy regard for the thing, as horrible as those nylon guitars may be. But there’s this idea that there is an “authentic Brian,” and that that’s quirky and low-fi and represented by albums like Love You and the quirkier parts of the Paley sessions, and that Brian’s contributions to albums like Imagination and MIU are somehow inauthentic, or Brian couldn’t have really been involved in a real way. But I don’t think that idea holds up to scrutiny. Brian has always been interested in making commercially successful records, and he got his start as a record producer for the teen and novelty market, writing songs about surfing and cars to sell records. I mean, even at his height, we’re talking about the artist who combined one of the (in my opinion) grandest and most magnificent pieces of music of the 20th century with inane lyrics about how cute the girls were in different regions of the country.

I wasn’t there, and I don’t know what the break down of labor was on Imagination. I’m certainly not disputing that Brian was checked out for a lot of it. But honestly, the idea that “Imagination” just *couldn’t* have been Brian’s *real* work is pretty insulting. Brian Wilson was in his mid 50s in the 1990s, with a lifetime of music business experience. I don’t see how it’s so implausible that he couldn’t have agreed with Melinda and Joe Thomas that an Adult Contemporary song would be successful and knocked out a song like Imagination with a couple collaborators. It might not be to your taste, but that doesn’t mean it wasn’t Brian’s work. (And sadly, one need only compare the demo and the final product of Everything I Need to see that Joe Thomas could turn a perfectly decent production from Brian into dreck just by overdubbing 30 or 40 tracks of reverb-soaked percussion….)

I also think that Melinda and the Beach Boys both deserve a little more sympathy than they sometimes get, in terms of "forcing" Brian to work. (Landy, who was supposed to be a doctor, deserves no sympathy whatsoever, just to be clear). It can be very hard to tell, when you’re living with a mentally ill person, what is really going to be best for them, or even what they want. What *almost* never helps, though, is them not working at all, and just lying around the house. That usually leads to only dark places. So as easy as it is to think that The Beach Boys were *forcing* Brian to make MIU or Almost Summer or whatever, because of their selfish desire for hits, I think it is crucial to remember that Brian was probably, at moments, extremely enthusiastic about these projects, and that trying to keep him working could really have felt like the best among bad options. In the case of Melinda, this goes times a thousand.

So far as I can tell, Brian is mostly just making music when he feels like it these days. And when fans are disappointed, I don’t think it’s because Brian isn’t really involved. It’s just that many fans seem to associate “real” or “authentic” Brian music with the quirky Brian of Love You, as opposed to the more commercially-minded Brian of MIU; the quirky Brian of the Paley Sessions, as opposed to the commercially-minded Brian of Imagination; or, for that matter, the quirky Brian of Pet Sounds versus the commercially-minded Brian of Summer Days. But Brian has clearly always been perfectly comfortable knocking out a song about whatever theme he thinks might hit the charts, whether that’s surfing or cars or gentle boomer nostalgia with a twist of Jimmy Buffet.

Also, on a total side note, underneath the horrible production, Cry is an extraordinary song and vocal arrangement. That is one that never seems to come up in terms of solo-career highlights, but I’d kill for a good remix or a Brian Wilson Band version.


Title: Re: Brian’s involvement in solo albums
Post by: CenturyDeprived on September 28, 2021, 05:05:45 PM
In a nutshell, it seems likely to me that - just like Marilyn said - it took a good deal of questioning and haranguing aimed at Brian's music, by the people around Brian, to cause something to irrevocably "flip" in his head.

From a certain point on, this caused Brian to not quite completely have full 100% confidence in his own mojo to pull off songs and have the entire process go relatively easy-peasy.

I mean, Brian had such an amazing track record in the early days, and yes I'm sure there was some push/pull with his collaborators here and there... but ultimately Brian being the boss and having final word was relatively UNQUESTIONED for a number of years. Then, at a certain point, the pressure of some people close to him not quite believing in him or his vision, and getting all of those wires crossed in his head with second-guessing the "appropriateness" of the music he was making, it all seemingly culminated in Brian permanently not really having the self-contained motivation to see songs through fully to completion, without someone else REALLY helping to push a project along to the final stages.

The bad vibes during the SMiLE period, and the fact that Mike basically passive aggressively helped (didn't solely cause, but helped) to sink a creative collaboration between Brian and Van, had long lasting ramifications. And yes the drugs didn't help either.

On top of this, the other factor is that Brian - in addition to nearly always getting his way creatively in the early years - also had a streak of amazing success, where the vast majority of what he released with The BBs was well-received by the public/critics, and it SOLD and did well on the charts. As the band's reputation took a nosedive, and Brian was dealing with his own second-guessing of his own work, he sadly ALSO at this time - when he was beginning to be artistically crippled by this internalized second-guessing - sadly secondarily had to deal with wondering if the songs that he'd release would even sell worth a damn, and if anyone in the public would really care. It was a double whammy for his self-confidence, and I think after trying really hard to make super A-level contributions for Sunflower - and having it tank so profoundly commercially - this was something he never fully recovered from.

Many artists will tell you that the hardest thing it might be to do is to put one's heart and soul into a project and have it fall flat (in terms of how it is received by those around the artist, or the public)... and this sad cycle of losing full confidence in his work - IMHO -  led Brian's ambition, and thus his creativity, to slowly fade over the years. Luckily he still has the urge and inclination to write music sometimes, and if the right collaborator comes along, it can cause some magic to happen for sure - but overall the early massive success set in motion expectations that couldn't be sustainable over the years.

And as VDP put it in the Beautiful Dreamer doc, if ANYONE as an artist deserved to not have their artistic vision questioned, it was Brian Douglas Wilson. That wholly accurate statement, and the way that concept was not adhered to by those in Brian's circle (sometimes for some perfectly understandable, human reasons, and sometimes for other much more nefarious reasons) is IMHO the chief reason why Brian's ambition to finish projects and see stuff though to completion became spotty. He needed a safety net, and his safety net failed him too many times.

Brian eventually basically said "f*ck it" out of self-preservation, and whatever amount of himself he began giving to projects (which gradually became less than the 100% he gave in the early days) ensured that disappointments wouldn't hurt quite as bad anymore when they inevitably happened again and again.

IMHO, the way that Brian was for years sadly mind-f*cked by those around him, and the way those around him have reacted in an attempt to get Brian back to a more productive state - even with the very, very best of intentions - has had mixed results over the years, for sure. I, just like so many others, just want Brian to be happy first and foremost. Anything else that we are gifted with musically from Brian at this point is a true gift and blessing. I'm sure many agree that that Brian's current band and emotional safety net would have done wonders for his self-confidence and ability to finish projects had they been at his disposal decades earlier.


Title: Re: Brian’s involvement in solo albums
Post by: guitarfool2002 on September 29, 2021, 09:33:45 AM
I also have to remember a time when people who were following all this stuff back to the early 90's had a notion of Brian doing a new project more in line with Smile/Smiley Smile that might end up sounding in their minds like an Animal Collective or Elephant 6 label project or something, and perhaps that kind of hope or expectation is what drove (or continues to drive) the letdowns and disappointments when a Brian project comes out and it's not all weird and goofy like "Smiley Smile 2" or something.

Big facts. And this phenomenon doesn't seem to plague too many of his contemporaries in the same way. I don't think there have been too many people complaining about McCartney's solo albums not being something along the lines of 'Sgt. Pepper 2' (didn't he actually do something like that in the 80s and NOT release it?) Most people seemed to like the relatively recent album by The Who, even though it's certainly not 'Tommy 2' or 'Quadrophenia 2'.

Funny you'd bring up Animal Collective and Elephant 6 though, obviously for musical/aesthetic comparison, but it gets me thinking about how a lot of Animal Collective fans have spent 10+ years complaining about not getting 'Merriweather Post Pavilion 2' and a lot of Neutral Milk Hotel fans have been dreaming about 'In the Aeroplane Over the Sea 2' for almost 25 years! People like us just want it all, sometimes  :lol

It really doesn't seem to fall on Brian's contemporaries, does it? I can understand why to a degree, and I think there is actually more of an emotional investment in Brian and his music than there is maybe for The Who or The Stones, or whoever else, but it's also frustrating to see it play out again and again.

The irony too is there is that film clip from '76 where Paul and Linda visited Brian for a birthday gathering, and Paul directly asks Brian "When are you going to give us another Pet Sounds?". Maybe the best reply could have been "When are you going to write another Hey Jude?". But there was the same sentiment and similar expectations on Brian ten years removed from Pet Sounds' release playing out on camera.

I think the conundrum with Brian is how he's openly said he wants a hit record, something that would be on the radio. So a list of producers and collaborators have tried to deliver that, and honestly I have to say some of the production sounds of those records and songs sink them for me. It's hard for me to get past the sometimes (or often) dated sounds and get into the actual songs sometimes, and that's a shame. But if someone in, say, 1987 were to say "I want a hit record", and people were contracted to deliver said hit record, it would most likely sound similar to what folks in the biz thought was a "hit record" at that time. And that's what can date the material.

I would LOVE to have a 100% Brian Wilson mix on anything he releases, if it's just one song where he's the guy pushing the faders doing the whole thing with no fixing or meddling after the fact. It has been done in the past 30 years, we just haven't heard it. Part of the problems I have with several of the solo projects going back to BW88 is that the production masks the personality of Brian's music rather than enhancing it and bringing it out. It either sounds too dated or not close enough to the heart of the song. I think a track like Love And Mercy works so well as a live track versus the BW88 version, and having seen that first tour when Imagination was released, I think several of those tracks also worked better live than they did with the production heard on the studio album.

It certainly is a conundrum.


Title: Re: Brian’s involvement in solo albums
Post by: HeyJude on September 29, 2021, 11:25:57 AM
McCartney's career has had a *very* different trajectory than Brian's, so it's very difficult to compare. McCartney was as productive, and eventually more productive, than Brian or the BBs were, and McCartney didn't have band members to pick up the slack the way Brian did.

A "when are you going to give us another Pet Sounds?" question is not the most subtle, sympathetic question. But I'd argue it would be meant as a motivational, positive comment. Moreover, Brian would have had a hard time countering Paul with a similar question about Paul's career as of 1976, as McCartney was red hot in 1976 with a huge Wings tour and top-selling albums and singles. He was arguably the biggest rock star in the world at the moment he visited that Brian birthday party in June 1976.

McCartney put out much, much more product over the years and thus there was never any jarring, extreme left turn album that he released as a main-line "pop/rock" album (meaning, I'm discounting his weird side projects like the classical stuff or "Liverpool Sound Collage" or the "Fireman" stuff). McCartney did veer into some of the trappings of different eras. But, because he remained commercially successful into the early-mid 80s (and intermittently thereafter), there was no perception when, say, he did "Band on the Run" in 1973 or "Tug of War" in 1982 that his career had just completely fizzled and he needed to do a "Sgt. Pepper 2."

Every "legacy" artist has some amount of spectators and "fans" chasing after them asking for them to make stuff as "good" as their pinnacle/heyday.

It is ironic that part of the "when is Brian going to do another Pet Sounds?" stuff came from people who knew nothing of the quality post-Pet Sounds work that the band *and* Brian had done.


Title: Re: Brian’s involvement in solo albums
Post by: guitarfool2002 on September 30, 2021, 10:17:56 AM
McCartney's career has had a *very* different trajectory than Brian's, so it's very difficult to compare. McCartney was as productive, and eventually more productive, than Brian or the BBs were, and McCartney didn't have band members to pick up the slack the way Brian did.

A "when are you going to give us another Pet Sounds?" question is not the most subtle, sympathetic question. But I'd argue it would be meant as a motivational, positive comment. Moreover, Brian would have had a hard time countering Paul with a similar question about Paul's career as of 1976, as McCartney was red hot in 1976 with a huge Wings tour and top-selling albums and singles. He was arguably the biggest rock star in the world at the moment he visited that Brian birthday party in June 1976.

McCartney put out much, much more product over the years and thus there was never any jarring, extreme left turn album that he released as a main-line "pop/rock" album (meaning, I'm discounting his weird side projects like the classical stuff or "Liverpool Sound Collage" or the "Fireman" stuff). McCartney did veer into some of the trappings of different eras. But, because he remained commercially successful into the early-mid 80s (and intermittently thereafter), there was no perception when, say, he did "Band on the Run" in 1973 or "Tug of War" in 1982 that his career had just completely fizzled and he needed to do a "Sgt. Pepper 2."

Every "legacy" artist has some amount of spectators and "fans" chasing after them asking for them to make stuff as "good" as their pinnacle/heyday.

It is ironic that part of the "when is Brian going to do another Pet Sounds?" stuff came from people who knew nothing of the quality post-Pet Sounds work that the band *and* Brian had done.

And also - as we all know - the main difference is how The Beatles had a definite ending to the group. As of 1970 they became four individual artists known as ex-Beatles, and that for a solo career would be very liberating since there would be no band to return to, no matter how loud the calls were to do so.

I guess I'm trying to convey how different it would be if The Beatles had either regrouped or stayed together while pursuing more solo projects, and if there would have been as much for fans to critique as "The Beatles" who had done Sgt Pepper and "Hey Jude" versus whatever hypothetical they would have released in, say, 1976. With the Beach Boys there was always the Jekyll And Hyde element at play, where fans as early as 1976 when McCartney made the Pet Sounds comment on camera would be hearing tracks from "15 Big Ones" and asking when is this group - the same group - going to give us another Pet Sounds or even another California Girls or whatever. The band was still together, but the music kept getting farther and farther away from the fans' expectations, I think perhaps the nadir until Summer In Paradise was actually Keepin The Summer Alive. At least Macca could release his disco stuff and his other stylistic explorations and it wasn't "The Beatles" because the band was officially done in 1970. Same with the other members.

In that way I can understand Macca's Pet Sounds question/comment a little more. There was still a "Beach Boys", as in the same group that did release Pet Sounds ten years prior. And instead of that kind of music, the most current Beach Boys were going heavier on the 50's/60's oldies covers than they had in a long time.

And later on there were no lawsuits and licenses over the band name or "confusion in the marketplace" over who the Beach Boys that fans were paying to see or hear actually were.  ;D


Title: Re: Brian’s involvement in solo albums
Post by: Lonely Summer on September 30, 2021, 07:33:30 PM
Just referring to his solo work; I think, usually, Brian has been more of a participant than collaborator; but there are times when he does contribute.

For 1988 and Sweet Insanity, I think this is pretty Brian, despite the constant presence of Landy. It sounds Brian; just how Love You and Adult/Child sound like Brian. Landy's presence is felt, but musically, it sounds like the guy who made Love You in the 70s'; all made up for the 80s. It may be easy to say, well, these two albums were really made by Landy, but Landy couldn't emulate anything like Brian musically speaking. I'm sure it was hell working with Landy, but the overall sound of these two are Brian.

Now there were a lot of other collaborators; chief among them Andy Paley. My view about Paley is that he was almost like a life coach for Brian. He could get Brian amped up and rolling; the ideas would start bouncing back between them. Brian doesn't get that comfortable with many people; so these type of collaborations I'm totally fine with. Brian is still contributing to the sound of the album, in addition to co-writing and co-producing. I think that's why some of the Paley material had a lot of promise as well. I don't need Brian to be a one man wrecking crew like it's 1966. IF he needs a collaborator, that's fine; as long as he is enjoying it. From what I've read Brian really did like the material they came up with. However, the Beach Boys did not and I recall Melinda calling the material great for therapy, but not for release.

And, in my view, that's the last time we got anything original from Brian. The Don Was soundtrack and Orange Crate Art are clearly more guest than anything else, though he did arrange the vocals for OCA, it was still mostly a VDP project. The Joe Thomas material has always seemed really artificially Brian. Wasn't the process record Brian for a few hours and try to generate a new song from it? Everything about Imagination is over the top in its appeal to 1990s Adult Contemporary. Same with GIOTH; it sounded dated when it was released. Has Brian ever sounded pumped up when talking about either one of these albums? I've not seen it. From what I read, Brian was more or less forced to work with Joe Thomas. The late 90s period is weird; Brian stops working with Paley, makes AC with Thomas, while relocating to St. Charles, Illinois, to create the album. (I think they built a studio there, too) Then by 1999, weren't he and Thomas in the middle of suing each other? It's like Brian never lived in St. Charles at all. It gives me vibes of Brian being forced to go to Iowa in winter 1977 to make music. Come on Brian, get up, make some music for your cousins, friends, and brothers. And none of that Adult/Child crap! Come on Brian, get up, make some music with Joe Thomas. And none of that Chain Reaction of Love crap!

BWPS was mostly based off the live show but it did lead to Brian working on TLOS with Scott; Brian was coming up with some original material. The Disney and Gershwin albums were nothing original, but Brian was into singing the material. Even though TWGMTR is a BB album, I'll include it here due to the heavy presence of Joe Thomas. (First, why is he back after the lawsuits and the fighting?) There are some really good songs on that album, but I really don't know what exactly Brian did in making the album. It's a collection of old material from the 90s, with a few newer songs and Mike's Daybreak. I want to believe Brian had a hand in From There to Back Again, but I easily accept the entire production and composing could be Joe Thomas. I can't tell exactly where Brian is; I can tell places where Brian is being emulated. The album seemed like it was put together without the Beach Boys until it was time for vocals. I can understand why Mike had his issues with how the album was made because it doesn't seem like a real Beach Boys album. Was there any chance of anyone writing together? Al? Bruce? David? It seemed tailor made to promote the 50th reunion tour; that's it. No Pier Pressure seems even less like Brian, even though there are a few good tracks. Take into consideration interviews of people saying Brian just sits there, says and does nothing in the studio. Someone is making the music, but I don't believe it's always Brian these days. That's fine. Brian doesn't owe me anything. I just hope Brian likes making these albums and doing these tours. Maybe he does and he just goes with the flow, but there's also the other side of Brian we hardly see. He did have to postpone several shows for mental health reasons. I imagine even with the best treatment, he probably still suffers a lot from mental illness. Those reasons alone I don't expect him to create anymore. He should play music whenever he wants to and it doesn't have to be recorded. Just let loose.

Brilliant summation.


Title: Re: Brian’s involvement in solo albums
Post by: DonnyL on September 30, 2021, 10:16:42 PM
What’s interesting to me is the tracks that Brian recorded that are most like Pet Sounds after say, 1970- were “Still I Dream of It” and “It’s Over Now”.

So you have everyone kind of clamoring for Brian to do something more like Pet Sounds- but we get MIU and LA Light Album instead of the Adult Child record.


Title: Re: Brian’s involvement in solo albums
Post by: BJL on October 01, 2021, 07:55:22 AM
What’s interesting to me is the tracks that Brian recorded that are most like Pet Sounds after say, 1970- were “Still I Dream of It” and “It’s Over Now”.

So you have everyone kind of clamoring for Brian to do something more like Pet Sounds- but we get MIU and LA Light Album instead of the Adult Child record.

I think a huge part of this must have been Brian's unwillingness to let his best songs be released, or at times even recorded, by the Beach Boys, after he felt they had rejected them in some way, or just because the idea of releasing work that he'd put actual effort into scared him. One clear example is California Feeling. It almost *titled* MIU, before Brian himself insisted that it be pulled altogether. Then it was rerecorded for the LA Light Album in Miami, producing the stunning version on the Made in California boxset, before being left off that album too (an album that would have seriously benefitted from its inclusion). I love Adult Child, it's a late 70s outsider-art cult classic, for sure, but it's not exactly hard to see why the record company rejected it. What's sadder, although also not exactly difficult to understand, is why the Beach Boys in the late 70s couldn't have reproduced a semblance of the collaborative spirit of the early 70s, with Carl helping get Brian's songs over the finish line, and Brian contributing some of his quirky arrangement ideas to the other guys' songs. But communication and collaboration in the band was obviously fundamentally broken by that point, which meant that although the Beach Boys had more than enough incredible material and raw talent between them to record albums capable of standing with their best work... they just didn't, or couldn't, or wouldn't.


Title: Re: Brian’s involvement in solo albums
Post by: DonnyL on October 01, 2021, 12:18:45 PM
What’s interesting to me is the tracks that Brian recorded that are most like Pet Sounds after say, 1970- were “Still I Dream of It” and “It’s Over Now”.

So you have everyone kind of clamoring for Brian to do something more like Pet Sounds- but we get MIU and LA Light Album instead of the Adult Child record.

I think a huge part of this must have been Brian's unwillingness to let his best songs be released, or at times even recorded, by the Beach Boys, after he felt they had rejected them in some way, or just because the idea of releasing work that he'd put actual effort into scared him. One clear example is California Feeling. It almost *titled* MIU, before Brian himself insisted that it be pulled altogether. Then it was rerecorded for the LA Light Album in Miami, producing the stunning version on the Made in California boxset, before being left off that album too (an album that would have seriously benefitted from its inclusion). I love Adult Child, it's a late 70s outsider-art cult classic, for sure, but it's not exactly hard to see why the record company rejected it. What's sadder, although also not exactly difficult to understand, is why the Beach Boys in the late 70s couldn't have reproduced a semblance of the collaborative spirit of the early 70s, with Carl helping get Brian's songs over the finish line, and Brian contributing some of his quirky arrangement ideas to the other guys' songs. But communication and collaboration in the band was obviously fundamentally broken by that point, which meant that although the Beach Boys had more than enough incredible material and raw talent between them to record albums capable of standing with their best work... they just didn't, or couldn't, or wouldn't.

Good points, and I know this is not a straightforward topic, nor do we have anything resembling all of the information ...

I don't think the full story of Adult Child has been told. I know there are quotes from Brian that he was doing "swing" music in the '70s and Mike Love didn't like it and said it wasn't of the times ... this suggests that Brian did like the record and wanted it out at one point. And we know Warner Bros. rejected it (rightly or wrongly, from a commercial standpoint- if these people wanted Brian Wilson, then maybe they could have understood with more nuance the fragility of working with Brian Wilson?).

Who decided to get Dick Reynolds and make swing music in 1977? No one but Brian Wilson. Why did he do this? Simply put, likely because that's what he wanted to do at that time. Surely, no one else was pushing for something so peculiar. Not Mike Love or the Beach Boys. Not Warners.  To be frank, to me- it's easy to see when Brian was calling the shots because he's truly an original an innovative creator. This appears as "nutty" or "quirky" or downright weird and uncommercial to some people IMO.

There are also stories that BW didn't think "Still I Dream of It" was any good and didn't want it out at some later point ... but to your point: was this a defense mechanism? Was it retaliation? Brian is a complex character.

To me it's not a stretch to go with Marylin's angle- she was his wife after all. Like, Okay here's a record I made. Eh ... we don't want that, Brian. Okay f*** you, the music is shitty and I don't want it released. Fine.

My whole point in this thread is that there are lots of records that seem as though Brian is a reluctant participant. Then there are records (many unreleased) where he seemed to have been genuinely enthused while making them. It just so happens that the ones he seemed genuinely enthused about are also the ones where they sound the most like a Brian Wilson production.


Title: Re: Brian’s involvement in solo albums
Post by: BJL on October 01, 2021, 01:51:13 PM
I don't think the full story of Adult Child has been told. I know there are quotes from Brian that he was doing "swing" music in the '70s and Mike Love didn't like it and said it wasn't of the times ... this suggests that Brian did like the record and wanted it out at one point. And we know Warner Bros. rejected it (rightly or wrongly, from a commercial standpoint- if these people wanted Brian Wilson, then maybe they could have understood with more nuance the fragility of working with Brian Wilson?).

Who decided to get Dick Reynolds and make swing music in 1977? No one but Brian Wilson. Why did he do this? Simply put, likely because that's what he wanted to do at that time. Surely, no one else was pushing for something so peculiar. Not Mike Love or the Beach Boys. Not Warners.  To be frank, to me- it's easy to see when Brian was calling the shots because he's truly an original an innovative creator. This appears as "nutty" or "quirky" or downright weird and uncommercial to some people IMO.

There are also stories that BW didn't think "Still I Dream of It" was any good and didn't want it out at some later point ... but to your point: was this a defense mechanism? Was it retaliation? Brian is a complex character.

To me it's not a stretch to go with Marylin's angle- she was his wife after all. Like, Okay here's a record I made. Eh ... we don't want that, Brian. Okay f*** you, the music is shitty and I don't want it released. Fine.

My whole point in this thread is that there are lots of records that seem as though Brian is a reluctant participant. Then there are records (many unreleased) where he seemed to have been genuinely enthused while making them. It just so happens that the ones he seemed genuinely enthused about are also the ones where they sound the most like a Brian Wilson production.

I completely agree. I guess a thing that I still think is kind of strange (building on what you're saying, not disagreeing), is how it became so one-or-the-other. It's the kind of thing that makes sense in the Beach Boys story because it just happened so often, but that in the context of any other band would seem incredibly bizarre and dysfunctional. With the exception, maybe, of Carl bringing out Love You and perhaps the 88 album, there was never a situation where the more commercial record built on the more creative work. And I do think a big part of the problem, here, was that a number of key people (Mike Love, but not just him, I think) just didn't like the creative stuff and couldn't muster the enthusiasm for it. I mean, Adult Child has a couple spectacular 40s-style swing songs, some clearly half-ass efforts in that direction, two sticking-out-like-sore-thumbs early 70s novelty songs (both of which I love, but that is neither here nor there), Dennis singing a catchy but inane song about Baseball.... If this had been any other band, they would have been like, wow, there are some incredible songs here, Brian, we love this swing direction. Why don't we get three or four tracks that are really perfect with the jazz stuff, and release them alongside some more Beach Boys style songs and some Dennis and Carl tunes. Then you could have had something like the best of Adult Child meets the best of the LA Light album, and honestly, that would probably have been pretty fucking great. But there's not even an attempt in that direction, it's just one or the other, and the song that does get thrown on LA in the end is Shortening Bread, which is just like, what?


Title: Re: Brian’s involvement in solo albums
Post by: guitarfool2002 on October 01, 2021, 03:51:35 PM
Important to note with the last few posts about the swing/big band material Brian was writing circa 76/77: Brian seemed to be completely sold on it, and actually pitched his music to Frank Sinatra. Or at least he said he was going to have a pitch meeting with Sinatra in a 1977 interview just before it was supposed to happen.

Details and a link to that interview from 77 can be found here: http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,27617.0.html (http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,27617.0.html)

So I get the feeling Brian believed in that music and even wanted other artists like Sinatra to record it, and I think some of that batch of songs were pretty damn good. Was it a stylistic complete left turn? Yes - But that's nothing new.

One of the great "what if's" of that era.



Title: Re: Brian’s involvement in solo albums
Post by: DonnyL on October 01, 2021, 04:19:12 PM
I don't think the full story of Adult Child has been told. I know there are quotes from Brian that he was doing "swing" music in the '70s and Mike Love didn't like it and said it wasn't of the times ... this suggests that Brian did like the record and wanted it out at one point. And we know Warner Bros. rejected it (rightly or wrongly, from a commercial standpoint- if these people wanted Brian Wilson, then maybe they could have understood with more nuance the fragility of working with Brian Wilson?).

Who decided to get Dick Reynolds and make swing music in 1977? No one but Brian Wilson. Why did he do this? Simply put, likely because that's what he wanted to do at that time. Surely, no one else was pushing for something so peculiar. Not Mike Love or the Beach Boys. Not Warners.  To be frank, to me- it's easy to see when Brian was calling the shots because he's truly an original an innovative creator. This appears as "nutty" or "quirky" or downright weird and uncommercial to some people IMO.

There are also stories that BW didn't think "Still I Dream of It" was any good and didn't want it out at some later point ... but to your point: was this a defense mechanism? Was it retaliation? Brian is a complex character.

To me it's not a stretch to go with Marylin's angle- she was his wife after all. Like, Okay here's a record I made. Eh ... we don't want that, Brian. Okay f*** you, the music is shitty and I don't want it released. Fine.

My whole point in this thread is that there are lots of records that seem as though Brian is a reluctant participant. Then there are records (many unreleased) where he seemed to have been genuinely enthused while making them. It just so happens that the ones he seemed genuinely enthused about are also the ones where they sound the most like a Brian Wilson production.

I completely agree. I guess a thing that I still think is kind of strange (building on what you're saying, not disagreeing), is how it became so one-or-the-other. It's the kind of thing that makes sense in the Beach Boys story because it just happened so often, but that in the context of any other band would seem incredibly bizarre and dysfunctional. With the exception, maybe, of Carl bringing out Love You and perhaps the 88 album, there was never a situation where the more commercial record built on the more creative work. And I do think a big part of the problem, here, was that a number of key people (Mike Love, but not just him, I think) just didn't like the creative stuff and couldn't muster the enthusiasm for it. I mean, Adult Child has a couple spectacular 40s-style swing songs, some clearly half-ass efforts in that direction, two sticking-out-like-sore-thumbs early 70s novelty songs (both of which I love, but that is neither here nor there), Dennis singing a catchy but inane song about Baseball.... If this had been any other band, they would have been like, wow, there are some incredible songs here, Brian, we love this swing direction. Why don't we get three or four tracks that are really perfect with the jazz stuff, and release them alongside some more Beach Boys style songs and some Dennis and Carl tunes. Then you could have had something like the best of Adult Child meets the best of the LA Light album, and honestly, that would probably have been pretty fucking great. But there's not even an attempt in that direction, it's just one or the other, and the song that does get thrown on LA in the end is Shortening Bread, which is just like, what?

Yeh I was thinking something like that too, as in: what band let’s “It’s Over Now” and “Still I Dream of It” sit around while deciding to church up “Hey Little Tomboy”? Now I’m getting into pure speculation but- this is where I think Marilyn’s point makes sense: Hey guys- you didn’t want my record, you don’t get my best songs. Or Brian is more sensitive to releasing the more personal tracks but doesn’t care about “Hey Little Tomboy”. Or could it be the old jealousies? Let’s not let Brian look too good. Or … more simply: We wanna go in a Kona Coast direction, Hey Little Tomboy is nice and catchy and fits but Brian’s weirdo jazzy stuff? Nah. You don’t even really like that song, do you Brian? Nah it’s shitty.

I do want to reiterate: Brian singing on tracks like “I’m Broke” and “Proud Mary” sound like he’s filled with passion and emotion. I can’t point to any of his released solo songs post-‘90s with that kind of vocal.


Title: Re: Brian’s involvement in solo albums
Post by: smackdaddy on October 02, 2021, 02:40:15 AM
To answer the question posed by the OP: I think to get the clearest view of what it's like to work with Brian in the modern context, you should read Stephen McParland's book about the Gary Usher 1986 sessions. And do so without the prejudice that every negative aspect of Brian's personality or working method is Eugene Landy's fault. (A view that Gary Usher never endorses even as his personal opinion of Landy plummets.) Doing this cleared up a lot for me.

I think a lot of Brian's gifts are still with him in regards to vocal arrangement and charm, but he's needed -- not desired, needed -- collaborators to finish anything since his mid-twenties. Initially, I think this was psychologically aversive in nature. By the mid-70s I think it's brain damage due to compulsive drug abuse and past the early 80s it's compounded brain damage. This isn't to say that he's a zombie, he seems perfectly functional and sensible in non-musical aspects, but I do think he's 50 years past the point where he could "turn it on" if he really wanted to simply because what he did took an enormous capacity for concentration and organized creative thought. And that's fine, really, it's not like he wasted time during his fruitful years -- but I think there's a tendency for Beach Boys fans to continuously revisit post-73 material as if by repeating an unpleasant narrative in their head that it will turn out better this time. (Beatles fans do this with the break-up -- it is the subject of 50% of Beatles podcasts -- and I suspect it's not uncommon with other enthusiast communities.) This isn't to say that Brian wasn't responsible for enjoyable music post-73, but was it great, or even continuous with what he was capable of in the 60s? Is inability more of an influence than changing aesthetic inclinations? If Raffi had recorded the lead vocal for Solar System and released it under his name, would anyone care about the track?

(Addendum: I don't get the fetishization of the "Everything I Need" demo. It's not a revival of Pet Sounds aesthetic, it sounds like Andrew Gold.)


Title: Re: Brian’s involvement in solo albums
Post by: BJL on October 02, 2021, 08:14:33 PM
I think a lot of Brian's gifts are still with him in regards to vocal arrangement and charm, but he's needed -- not desired, needed -- collaborators to finish anything since his mid-twenties. Initially, I think this was psychologically aversive in nature. By the mid-70s I think it's brain damage due to compulsive drug abuse and past the early 80s it's compounded brain damage. This isn't to say that he's a zombie, he seems perfectly functional and sensible in non-musical aspects, but I do think he's 50 years past the point where he could "turn it on" if he really wanted to simply because what he did took an enormous capacity for concentration and organized creative thought. And that's fine, really, it's not like he wasted time during his fruitful years -- but I think there's a tendency for Beach Boys fans to continuously revisit post-73 material as if by repeating an unpleasant narrative in their head that it will turn out better this time. (Beatles fans do this with the break-up -- it is the subject of 50% of Beatles podcasts -- and I suspect it's not uncommon with other enthusiast communities.) This isn't to say that Brian wasn't responsible for enjoyable music post-73, but was it great, or even continuous with what he was capable of in the 60s? Is inability more of an influence than changing aesthetic inclinations? If Raffi had recorded the lead vocal for Solar System and released it under his name, would anyone care about the track?

I think this is absolutely right.

But I also think the reason the topic never dies is not just the perverse obsessiveness of fans (however perverse and obsessive we all may be!), but also exactly what you're highlighting here. It's obvious, listening to Brian's solo career, that his *gift* is still there. It just rarely if ever reaches full expression, I think for exactly the reasons you give. Also, in my opinion, Beach Boys fans are particularly well-trained to look for the might-have-beens and could-bes, because of Smile. As you listen to the smile sessions and study what Brian was doing, I think something that becomes clearer and clearer is just how fucking good this record would have been if it had been finished; how close it was, and yet how far, too. A Surf's Up with the same attention lavished on the last two minutes as on the first two minutes, A Do You Like Worms with a full, proper lead vocal and even more layers of harmony. Fire with howling backing vocals, not flown in from Smiley Smile, but recorded by the Beach Boys, in their prime. You get these visions in your mind, and you realize that Brian was fully capable of doing all this, these things could have existed, some of these things may actually *have* existed, until Columbia threw out all the multitrack that had been left there whenever that happened. It all came so close to existing! And then, and then, and then... And we listen and read and fantasize and come up with theories, and that's the attraction, I think, for so many of us.

And then Brian's solo career offers a version of the same story, because there are so many moments of brilliance, often on otherwise unremarkable tracks - an unexpected chord change or a melody line that soars upwards in that inimitable Pet Sounds way, or a moment of harmony that sounds simple at first but seems to unfold differently every time you listen to the song. Or even just going to a Beach Boys concert in 2012, on a good night, and hearing Brian sing a song like I Just Wasn't Made for These Times and missing half the notes but then, for a moment, just sounding, so, so much like himself, like the person who wrote that song in 1966. And so even though we *know* we're not getting another Pet Sounds, it's hard not to fantasize, just like it's hard not to fantasize about a backing track to the second half of Surf's Up suddenly showing up on a reel in someone's basement, and being just as wonderful as we imagined, just as wonderful as we know it would have been, because we have the *first* half of Surf's Up, and it is sublime.

Also, in terms of Love You - yes, that record absolutely would be a cult classic no matter who had made it. If some unknown band had formed in 1977 and put out that one album and then broken up, it would be a cult classic. It is not a classic because Brian made it. The Beach Boys Love You is true outsider art, like a John Waters movie or a Henry Darger painting or The Shaggs, and it would have been discovered by that audience eventually, I feel completely confident about that.


Title: Re: Brian’s involvement in solo albums
Post by: rab2591 on October 03, 2021, 06:48:26 AM
I think that because Brian did it all himself until the mid/late 1960s, we heap way too much expectation upon him going forward after that. We want Brian to fully complete an album from start to finish - from the first kernel of an idea to fully mixing and handing the album to the label. But I don’t think many other major artists do this.

I remember reading that Bob Dylan really dislikes the final mix on his Time Out Of Mind album…and I remember thinking “it’s his album, why did he approve the thing to be released if he didn’t like the sound of it?” (And granted I guess he has produced every album he’s done since because of this) but it’s still a reminder that even if you’re Bob Dylan you get other people to do work for you (the album even had an art director on it - yet no one complains that Bob wasn’t the solo visionary of the album).

There’s a reason most bands hire producers to help them unify their vision, to help them stay focused on the project. We’re not only wanting Brian to write genius songs, we’re also wanting him to do it without any collaborative help with chords, lyrics, or harmony ideas. We want him to be the sole creator of the vision and artistic direction of the project. We want him to stay 100% focused in the studio (even though most artists hire someone to help them stay focused and on task). We want him to mix every little note and instrument on the album. And we want him to hand the album to the head of Capitol Records himself. I am being slightly over dramatic here, but I’m also not far off the mark, either.

At a time Brian was doing most all of this himself, which is why we have such high standards for him. But that workload also drove him to a very dark place.

OP talks about “pure Brian input” - and I totally get what they’re saying, but also how many other artists are subjected to this much criticism or high of standards? When [insert your artist name here] puts out an album you usually don’t hear people complain about the amount of collaborators on the album. You don’t hear people complain that they had an outside producer that helped the artist with chords, arrangements, artistic vision, or anything.

I mean, I am not pointing fingers at fans. I myself want Brian at the helm, steering the course, commanding his troops in the studio. I want his ideas to be fully brought out on tape. I want him to mix everything. I want him to be totally in control. But this isn’t even realistic for too many other mainstream artists, let alone Brian Wilson who has some pretty messed up mental problems.

And I will grant you, I do wish that Brian had a collaborator that wasn’t so obsessed with Adult Contemporary sound. I think that TLOS is a masterpiece, and I really wish that Brian was able to create more projects like that. But what we have is what we have, and there are still some amazingly beautiful moments in Imagination. I really think that NPP is a masterpiece that Brian put a lot of time and effort into. Even if JT did help with chords at times, or the lyrics are sometimes rather vague - it is still an incredible Brian Wilson album that has a lot of amazing moments on it.

Edit; I do think it sucks that when other artists have people “finish a project” (ie mix, finishing touches, etc) it’s just “show business”. When this happens with Brian it’s because he’s supposedly incapable of doing those things. I don’t think he’s incapable of finishing a project, but I think that he is just like most other artists who choose not to burden themselves with every detail of a project.


Title: Re: Brian’s involvement in solo albums
Post by: ♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇 on October 03, 2021, 04:42:58 PM
Something being glossed over is the move from mono to stereo. By definition Brian would’ve begun needing additional assistance once that happened


Title: Re: Brian’s involvement in solo albums
Post by: rab2591 on October 04, 2021, 05:56:55 AM
Quote
What is Brian’s actual degree of involvement in the songwriting and production of his solo albums?

I also want to answer OP's question with some quotes from Ray Lawlor - a best friend of Brian's who has 1000x more firsthand knowledge about Brian's life than any of us ever will:

Quote
Management team of Jean Sievers and Melinda Wilson involved in or responsible for:
“I Guess I Just Wasn’t Made For These Times” film and soundtrack.
“Orange Crate Art” with Van Dyke Parks
“Imagination”
Brian Wilson starts solo tours.
“ Live at the Roxy”
“An All-Star Tribute to Brian Wilson” live at Radio City Music Hall in NY; as well as DVD
“Brian Wilson On Tour “ DVD
“Pet Sounds “ Live ; tour and CD
“Getting’ In Over My Head”
“ SMiLE” live
“Brian Wilson Presents Smile”
“What I Really Want For Christmas”
“ Brian Wilson Reimagines Gershwin” CD and tour
“Songs in the Key of Disney”
“That Lucky Old Sun” tour and CD
The Beach Boy’s C50 tour
“That’s Why God Made the Radio”
“ The SMiLE Sessions” box set
Ivor Novello award in London
Inducted into the Songwriter’s Hall of Fame in New York
Musicare’s Man of the Year Award
Queen Elizabeth’s 50th Jubilee ; Buckingham Palace, London
Kennedy Center Award , Washington DC
Two Grammy’s.
Paul McCartney’s Minefield Event

I may be forgetting something but you get the drift. Does anyone with the sense that God gave grapefruit thinks that all of that could be “coerced” out of Brian , or any other artist ? Yes; sometimes Brian has to be pushed , that is part of his illness and you know what he says each and every time ? “Thank you so much for pushing back on me with that ; it was great and you helped me make it happen.” Everything that has been done, with respect to the health and welfare of Brian Wilson , both professionally and personally, has not been done in a vacuum.  Unless you have walked in Melinda Wilson’s shoes , or in Jean Sievers shoes, then you are oblivious of what either one of them does or has accomplished.

At the end of the day , after all of the above, the ultimate accomplishments are Brian's.  He is the one who pulled it all off, from putting together what has been called the best band in the world ( and they are), writing , arranging and producing  alot of great music, them performing it live on the road and getting it out there.  Ultimately, its his show, with a little help from his friends and immediate family.

G’Day.

Quote
I was not in the studio for the sessions with JB and Brian , so I can only speak to sessions I have been in (SMiLE, Scott , TLOS, Gershwin, Getting in Over My Head, Everything I Need, What Love Can Do).  I have sat next to him at the board when he hasn't said a word or done anything for an hour , finally asking him ;" Brian , what the hell are you doing Huh"  Answer : " I am working"...he was working out arrangements in his head; then went out and taught them to the guys. I have also had him tell me to give directions to the guys as well , which I had the good sense not to do ; so I get that somebody in the booth could have been dictating to Jeff what to play......probably Jeff Foskett, maybe Joe Thomas; I don't know, but I can take an educated guess; I have experienced a very quiet BW in the booth.

Quote
I can only talk to things that I was there for ; for example I can talk The Scott Bennrtt sessions, TLOS, BWRG and most of the Disney record; I can't talk to the TWGMTR stuff because I wasn't there , and I only heard two songs, "Shelter" and  "Bill and Sue" on the keyboard. The rest of it I have to rely on my own ears and judgement; the closing suite could only come from Brian Wilson; thats what my ears tell me; my guess is that you can as well, as do many others who share this passion. With Brian all you need to do is listen; the 88 record , for example, with all those screamed lead vocals tells me all I need to know .


A good example of what you are asking about is The Gershwin album.  Was it Brian's idea ? I don't know ; however what I do know is that he had been talking a lot about cutting Rhapsody in Blue , and the next thing I knew I was sitting in the deli with him and he is telling me he was signed to do a Gershwin album so i can connect those dots. i was at the majority of those sessions ; Mark Linett said it was the hardest he had ever seen Brian work, and he absolutely worked his ass off. I talked earlier about how Brian listens to nobody ; a small anecdotal example.  He was cutting the vocal on "Love is Here to Stay" and it was a beautiful take.  I was kind of telling him "Brian you need to double that lead and it will be incredible". He was adamant that no , "it's just right".  And of course he was right , it was.  And I , thankfully , shut the hell up. Another example is "Nothing But Love".  It was initially cut as a ballad ; something about Paris , and it was not up to par.  The next morning , Brian was the first one in the studio, teaching the band essentially an entire rewrite of the song; different tempo , different key. He had consulted with Paul Von Mertens about writing the charts on the overnight for the song , I remember Paul saying to me something to the effect of " you know maybe we're too close, but you forget what a brilliant musician Brian is ". I could say lots more but it's getting late and I type slowly!

On the Illinois house; he never actually moved ; he had a second home there with a studio and then cashiered the house. For the Imagination album I believe he also used the Wondermints , flew them in from LA to record ; ultimately three of the musicians Joe Thomas brought in , Paul , Taylor and Scott ended up in the BW band.

The Christmas record ; Clive Davis and Brian picked the songs.

I can tell you that for the new record , Brian is working really hard; it's what I want to see and hear. He has been at Ocean Way at least 10 times this month on his own , no Joe ; just Brian working with musicians and cutting vocals on his own. He is putting a lot of craft into the making of this record, taking his time, working around the schedules of the young singers he has brought in.  I believe yesterday he was in the studio from 12 noon to 9 pm , working on drums and vocals. There are moments where he and Al are singing together, and when they are swapping leads , that I never thought I would hear again.

So essentially we have a 72 year old Brian Wilson who is not the 24 year old kid who cut Pet Sounds, Good Vibrations and SMiLE.  Who is still there , still working , still trying to be unpredictable after all these years .

If you go to his profile (http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php?action=profile;u=2163;sa=showPosts;start=0) and read his posts, he paints a much different picture of Brian than what many of us came to learn on forums and other internet outlets. Well worth the time to read - some of his posts about Brian in the studio are pure gold and will help you appreciate just how much work Brian puts into his albums.