The Smiley Smile Message Board

So Heroes and Villains was released July 31, 1967 and peaked at #12.

Is it possible that either an earlier release date, or a different assembly (vintage or otherwise), or a combination of both could have gotten it into the top 10? Top 5? Make it a number 1 hit?

I think it peaked at #10 on Cashbox in the US - which shows sales were still good. Technically sales were still good until “Break Away” and the switch to Reprise afterwards.

I know we're talking about America's summertime band, but I think this is one exception where a non-summer release could have done the record good. Autumn of '66, with "Good Vibrations" and so on from SMiLE, probably would've gone further...or maybe it would've been lost in the explosion of "Good Vibrations"?  ???

I think it's highly unlikely but definitely possible that if it was released in spring '67 at the latest (perhaps the double sided heroes and villains single like on the smile sessions box set) it had a shot of going number one... but that's just me.

I love H&V but even after all these years I've yet to hear a version or mix that screams #1 hit to me.... and yet I will say #1 mainly on the basis of this Chuck Britz quote:

" It was done like 'Good Vibrations'; it was just one hell of a song. It was a great song. Then, I understand, they went up to his home, and they did a lot of things. They cut it and inserted an organ down at the bottom of (Brian's) pool to get the pool quality.They did all kinds of things, but I think basically it could have been as good a classic as 'Good Vibrations' or better. Our (version) ran about five or six minutes; it was just a further step from 'Good Vibrations'. It had some great melodic lines. The arrangement was so full, and it was just something that I was very dissappointed in when I heard the final product."

If Chuck said that there was a 5-6 minute version that he thought was as good or better than GV, then who am I to argue?

Unfortunately the chorus "HV just see what you've done" dragged on and sank the chances of this song doing well. The live performance from 1970 received good audience response. Maybe and earlier release (and certainly with the Smile Sessions version) would make it a top 10 release. It was most likely never going to make #1 in any way shape or form as it just doesn't have the same potential GV did.

Here are two previous discussion related to this topic and question which have some pretty fascinating info:

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,13985.0.html (http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,13985.0.html)

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,11575.0.html (http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,11575.0.html)

One thing to keep in mind and which got somewhat lost to history is how these "charts" and chart positions specifically are not always reflective of how Top 40 AM radio music was tabulated in the mid 60's. We get an info download decades later saying a single only reached #11 because the reference is a Billboard listing. But the records themselves were far more regional at that time, dependent also on specific radio stations and even specific DJ's working in specific markets. So you might see a single peak at #2 in Boston, #6 in Chicago, #3 in Philly, #1 in Los Angeles, etc...and the Billboard and Cashbox listings would take an average of all the regional surveys to publish their "charts". And in some cases there could be a single which was huge in Philly or Los Angeles, but that same single never dented the charts in other big markets. The Beach Boys in particular had this happen a few times in 1967, where something like "Wild Honey" went top-5 in more R&B flavored markets like Philly and Detroit, yet gets remembered as being a relative lukewarm failure on the Billboard charts. Same with "Darlin", it was #2 pop in one market and in others it barely cracked the top 20, and gets written up as if it failed. Things were much more regional in the 60's, and before FM radio became the Top 40 location.

By definition, number 1.