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Smiley Smile Stuff => General On Topic Discussions => Topic started by: HeyJude on November 05, 2020, 03:23:06 PM



Title: 1997 Tour Footage w/Carl on YouTube
Post by: HeyJude on November 05, 2020, 03:23:06 PM
Looks like someone posted about 30 minutes of concert footage from a pre-September 1997 Beach Boys show with Carl. As we all know, 1997 footage is pretty rare (some point out that folks might be holding back footage of Carl not doing too well, and while that's one possibility, I also think just not that many folks bothered to capture the mid-late 90s somewhat rote BB show on video).

In any event, here's "I Can Hear Music": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aD41cFE_rJE

And here is the full available footage (the first half of this video is an unrelated later Brian solo show): https://youtu.be/6AXmO42nfKU?t=2925


Title: Re: 1997 Tour Footage w/Carl on YouTube
Post by: ♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇 on November 05, 2020, 03:41:11 PM
Hard to watch but he still sounded great which is crazy. He literally sounded the same (and better than in the late 70s which blows my mind)


Title: Re: 1997 Tour Footage w/Carl on YouTube
Post by: HeyJude on November 05, 2020, 03:42:35 PM
Haven't heard Carl sound bad on a 1997 (or other late era) recording. Voice was good. The most consistent of anybody in the band (apart from maybe Al).


Title: Re: 1997 Tour Footage w/Carl on YouTube
Post by: c-man on November 05, 2020, 07:02:03 PM
When I saw them in June of '97 - literally eight months to the day before he passed - Carl sounded great on guitar and vocals. The only clues to his illness where when he sat down in the middle of the show for a couple of songs, and when Mike mentioned his illness and how he was fighting it while staying on the road. I've read that he sat through almost all of other shows on that tour, so I guess I'm lucky I caught them on one of his "good" nights.


Title: Re: 1997 Tour Footage w/Carl on YouTube
Post by: Lonely Summer on November 05, 2020, 07:09:35 PM
I don't know why people say this is hard to watch. Sure, you can tell that he's a bit bloated from the meds, but man, he sounds so good! I admire that he did the tour that year, even though he was in the middle of the fight of his life.
Only wish I knew how he would sound at 70-something; I wish he was here.


Title: Re: 1997 Tour Footage w/Carl on YouTube
Post by: Zargo on November 05, 2020, 11:26:20 PM
I don't know why people say this is hard to watch. Sure, you can tell that he's a bit bloated from the meds, but man, he sounds so good! I admire that he did the tour that year, even though he was in the middle of the fight of his life.
Only wish I knew how he would sound at 70-something; I wish he was here.

It is admirable, but a strange choice. Perhaps a way of fighting the idea of the cancer being fatal. If he felt there was a good chance it wouldn't be, surely his wife and kids would have been the complete focus.


Title: Re: 1997 Tour Footage w/Carl on YouTube
Post by: juggler on November 06, 2020, 12:13:53 AM
I don't know why people say this is hard to watch. Sure, you can tell that he's a bit bloated from the meds, but man, he sounds so good! I admire that he did the tour that year, even though he was in the middle of the fight of his life.
Only wish I knew how he would sound at 70-something; I wish he was here.

It is admirable, but a strange choice. Perhaps a way of fighting the idea of the cancer being fatal. If he felt there was a good chance it wouldn't be, surely his wife and kids would have been the complete focus.

You know, having had a family member with terminal illness at age similar to Carl, I get why he did what he did.  He had an illness. He was going to doctors, getting whatever treatment he was getting, but beyond that what can you really do beyond just trying to live your life?  To be in that situation, there's just a huge desire for normalcy.  You can't spend all day, every day completely focusing on your illness, having tear-filled "maybe this is our last conversation" conversations, etc.  Being "the sick person" is a huge drag.

Carl loved the music, and he loved playing the music.  There's a story that's been told many time by the former Hawthorne High gym coach about how Carl didn't want to participate in Phys Ed class, preferring to sit on the bench practicing his guitar.  The coach warned him, "Carl, you're going to fail this class." Carl's response was along the lines of, "That's okay, Coach, I don't really like P.E. I just want to learn to play this guitar."  The coach later laughed at his own response: "Carl, you're never going to make a living playing that guitar. I'm going to end up seeing you selling pencils on Hawthorne Blvd."   I'm sure that touring was strenuous, but there on that stage for a few hours he wasn't "Carl Wilson, the sick person."  He was Carl Wilson, the Beach Boy, performing some of the most sublime songs ever written.


Title: Re: 1997 Tour Footage w/Carl on YouTube
Post by: Tony S on November 06, 2020, 03:43:38 AM
I remember seeing the Beach Boys and Carl at the end of August 1997 live at the old Garden State Arts Center in New Jersey. One of Carl's last performances he was still phenomenal when he sang God Only Knows especially, he sat most of the show except for that tune.


Title: Re: 1997 Tour Footage w/Carl on YouTube
Post by: mtaber on November 06, 2020, 06:00:42 AM
Juggler, that was a great response. Thank you.


Title: Re: 1997 Tour Footage w/Carl on YouTube
Post by: Emdeeh on November 06, 2020, 07:55:23 AM
Agree, thank you Juggler. My own feeling about Carl's situation was that performing was, in part, therapy for him.


Title: Re: 1997 Tour Footage w/Carl on YouTube
Post by: CenturyDeprived on November 06, 2020, 11:30:03 AM
Juggler, that was a great response. Thank you.

+1


Title: Re: 1997 Tour Footage w/Carl on YouTube
Post by: The 4th Wilson Bro. on November 06, 2020, 12:28:27 PM
I'll add my "thank you" for that post, juggler. God only knows how much it meant to Carl to be on stage performing with his bandmates at a time when so many others would have used that illness as an excuse to withdraw from life. Lord, how I loved and admired that man, as I know many of you did as well. I never got an opportunity to meet, or even hear Carl play/perform live, but the impact he made on my life is real and something I'll cherish as long as I live.


Title: Re: 1997 Tour Footage w/Carl on YouTube
Post by: Lonely Summer on November 06, 2020, 05:57:42 PM
Juggler nailed it. Slightly similar: earlier this year, when a lot of us were in lockdown at home, I'm sure we tried to get through the whole thing as normally as possible. I know I did. I could have sat frozen on my couch, worried myself sick, and become depressed. Instead, I developed new routines - mostly involving music making. That was my way of getting through a scary time.


Title: Re: 1997 Tour Footage w/Carl on YouTube
Post by: ♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇 on November 06, 2020, 09:23:19 PM
To clarify...when I meant it was hard to watch, I meant knowing what he was going through. I meant it on an empathetic level


Title: Re: 1997 Tour Footage w/Carl on YouTube
Post by: Jay on November 06, 2020, 11:20:46 PM
For me it's hard seeing him not looking a whole lot like Carl.


Title: Re: 1997 Tour Footage w/Carl on YouTube
Post by: Jim V. on November 07, 2020, 07:45:03 PM
I’m not usually one to overdo it, but my God, what a voice. Only months left, with God knows how much strength and the voice sends a tingle down my spine. What a man. What a singer.


Title: Re: 1997 Tour Footage w/Carl on YouTube
Post by: guitarfool2002 on November 08, 2020, 10:49:00 AM
I second all of the comments about Carl's final shows, the man loved the music and performing it for his fans, and did the best he could under terrible health conditions...and he also delivered great performances as shown in that video. What a singer indeed.

I just wish some of the same sentiments expressed here about Carl would be extended to his brother Brian in terms of performing, because in some circles (thankfully small but loud enough to notice) there have been voices for over 20 years trying to say Brian should quit performing, he's not up to it, his health is suffering, it's tough to see him on stage like that, etc.

When in reality all one needs to do is apply the same sentiments being directed to Carl's performing in 1997 and it makes perfect sense why and how Brian is still playing live and wants to play live even more once things straighten out in the world. How some can apply the sentiment of performing under tough physical circumstances to Carl but almost do the complete opposite toward Brian and suggest now for two decades that he should stop due to health issues is yet another one of those mysteries and contradictions surrounding the mindset of this band's fanbases and various factions.


Title: Re: 1997 Tour Footage w/Carl on YouTube
Post by: Emdeeh on November 08, 2020, 11:34:25 AM
Speaking of Brian, I got a survey from one of the larger local arts venues yesterday. In addition to the expected Covid-19 driven questions, they asked who would you like to see play there in the future. My response was "BRIAN WILSON!!!" I listed a number of other performers too, but Brian topped my list because this venue is absolutely perfect for his show.

Back to the Carl discussion. Love the man, love his voice.


Title: Re: 1997 Tour Footage w/Carl on YouTube
Post by: UEF on November 08, 2020, 12:18:42 PM
Quite a bit here too https://youtu.be/6AXmO42nfKU?t=4355


Title: Re: 1997 Tour Footage w/Carl on YouTube
Post by: Gerry on November 08, 2020, 01:11:38 PM
Regarding affording the same kindness and understanding to Brian as people have to Carl: in 1997 Carl still sounded great, Brian, since approx. the last 10 years has not. However , if Brian wants to continue to tour, God bless him.


Title: Re: 1997 Tour Footage w/Carl on YouTube
Post by: guitarfool2002 on November 08, 2020, 01:48:57 PM
Regarding affording the same kindness and understanding to Brian as people have to Carl: in 1997 Carl still sounded great, Brian, since approx. the last 10 years has not. However , if Brian wants to continue to tour, God bless him.

Understood, but the calls for Brian to step down and quit have been going on since his first tour in 1998. I've seen him sound great at shows I attended in person, nights where he was "on" and the crowd was fully engaged. I've seen videos which were less, sometimes far less, depending on the song too. But that's the nature of live performance. And unless someone had seen or been to all of those final shows Carl played, we don't know how consistently "on" he was either, and no one talks about it for obvious reasons, mainly that videos and audio of every show simply do not exist for us to hear. Reports are that Carl sang his heart out as best he could, and delivered for those shows which people attended and recalled, which is good enough for me.

But it wasn't the quality of the vocals I was pinpointing, maybe I didn't make that clear. How many comments both on fan forums and in various outlets have focused on Brian's difficulty walking, how he sat or moved, how he looked, how he had trouble getting on and off the stage as reasons why he needs to quit playing live shows...and just like Carl's appearance in 1997, what the f*** does that have to do with the music when it's all tallied up? I'm just saying for all of those who made such comments about how Brian looked bad, or looked like he was struggling physically on stage, what about trying to answer that scenario using the sentiments about Carl's physical difficulties and health issues in '97, and showing a little equity across the two situations? You can't suggest one thing for one scenario where physical health and appearance to audiences was a factor, then totally flip the opinion for another when similar issues were in play, in these cases physical appearances and struggles on stage.

One thing to recall too, and this may not be popular to bring up but it's worth mentioning, is how it was Brian in '97 who defended Carl's decision to continue touring despite his health struggles and told BRI essentially that Carl should be able to decide how long he wants to play shows with The Beach Boys. This was in response to a band member sending a letter to BRI saying Carl's health issues and on-stage appearance were of such concern that either Carl leave the band or the one writing the letter would quit. Fortunately that never happened, and again in part thanks to Brian saying Carl should be allowed to tour as long as he wishes to tour as a Beach Boy.



Title: Re: 1997 Tour Footage w/Carl on YouTube
Post by: Lonely Summer on November 08, 2020, 02:23:41 PM
The difference is that Carl was always part of the touring Beach Boys - well, okay, someone will point out 1981 as the exception, but he was touring on his own that year. Touring was a big part of his life. Brian dropped out of the touring band very early on, and his appearances with them after 1964 were sporadic at best. I was always told that Brian's home was in the studio, that he didn't like playing live. I did see him with the group a couple times - the Kingdome in Seattle, 1983; his contributions were minimal; and in 1985 at the Puyallup Fair, subbing for Carl. He sang God Only Knows and played the key-tar on some songs. I thought it was cool to see him with the group, but it was not something I expected.
so now when I see video of him being wheeled out on stage, sitting behind his piano looking uncomfortable, appearing to be in pain, I don't enjoy it. Maybe with all the time off this year he will regain some of his physical strength. Or maybe not. I have no idea what he is doing with his time right now.
Brian and Carl - two completely different people, different situations.


Title: Re: 1997 Tour Footage w/Carl on YouTube
Post by: guitarfool2002 on November 08, 2020, 04:28:03 PM
The difference is that Carl was always part of the touring Beach Boys - well, okay, someone will point out 1981 as the exception, but he was touring on his own that year. Touring was a big part of his life. Brian dropped out of the touring band very early on, and his appearances with them after 1964 were sporadic at best. I was always told that Brian's home was in the studio, that he didn't like playing live. I did see him with the group a couple times - the Kingdome in Seattle, 1983; his contributions were minimal; and in 1985 at the Puyallup Fair, subbing for Carl. He sang God Only Knows and played the key-tar on some songs. I thought it was cool to see him with the group, but it was not something I expected.
so now when I see video of him being wheeled out on stage, sitting behind his piano looking uncomfortable, appearing to be in pain, I don't enjoy it. Maybe with all the time off this year he will regain some of his physical strength. Or maybe not. I have no idea what he is doing with his time right now.
Brian and Carl - two completely different people, different situations.

How different is it when you break it down to the basics and see two musicians on stage playing through physical pain and other health issues which we can't even pretend to know what they're going through yet are still out there doing shows for their fans? And both of them expressed the desire to do just that - Continue touring and performing their music for the fans. The contradiction is when Carl's decision to continue touring despite all the issues is and was (rightfully) praised, and Brian for over two decades now has been saddled with this false narrative that he's being "forced" to play and shouldn't be playing because of how he looks on stage despite Brian himself telling people he wants to get back on the road again.

The difference - which is a sad one - is that Brian has these small pockets of Beach Boys fans who have been saying he should quit for years against his own stated wishes because of how he comes off on stage or again the fallacy of being "forced" onto these tours, and Carl had the fans behind him all the way yet had a fellow bandmate write a letter to BRI threatening to quit because of Carl's health issues on tour. Again for everyone praising Carl's decision to keep playing through the pain, and I'm one of them, and even more those fortunate enough to see him live one last time on his final run of live shows, it's a good thing Brian among others stepped in and said Carl should be allowed to make that decision himself to tour as a Beach Boy or to quit, and not be hit with an ultimatum from a bandmate because his health had taken a turn for the worst.

If musicians like Brian and Carl want to tour, and fans are wanting to see them play in person, let them decide to tour or stay home. Not pockets of fan bases complaining or bandmates issuing an ultimatum.


Title: Re: 1997 Tour Footage w/Carl on YouTube
Post by: juggler on November 08, 2020, 10:32:30 PM
One thing to recall too, and this may not be popular to bring up but it's worth mentioning, is how it was Brian in '97 who defended Carl's decision to continue touring despite his health struggles and told BRI essentially that Carl should be able to decide how long he wants to play shows with The Beach Boys. This was in response to a band member sending a letter to BRI saying Carl's health issues and on-stage appearance were of such concern that either Carl leave the band or the one writing the letter would quit. Fortunately that never happened, and again in part thanks to Brian saying Carl should be allowed to tour as long as he wishes to tour as a Beach Boy.

Hadn't heard that story.  Interesting.  An example (perhaps a rare one) of BRI *Brother* Records Inc. living up its to name.


Title: Re: 1997 Tour Footage w/Carl on YouTube
Post by: HeyJude on November 09, 2020, 07:24:05 AM
One thing to recall too, and this may not be popular to bring up but it's worth mentioning, is how it was Brian in '97 who defended Carl's decision to continue touring despite his health struggles and told BRI essentially that Carl should be able to decide how long he wants to play shows with The Beach Boys. This was in response to a band member sending a letter to BRI saying Carl's health issues and on-stage appearance were of such concern that either Carl leave the band or the one writing the letter would quit. Fortunately that never happened, and again in part thanks to Brian saying Carl should be allowed to tour as long as he wishes to tour as a Beach Boy.


Ray Lawlor a few years back finally filled in these details on that episode, and it is indeed important info. All we previously knew was Elliott Lott saying in a Rolling Stone article that Mike had not wanted to appear on stage with Carl anymore, but that it was "out of love" because Carl was on oxygen and wearing a wig, etc. Ray filled in more details, indicating that Mike sent a letter to BRI saying either Carl would have to be told to leave the tour, or he (Mike) was going to leave.

After that, though, the timeline is still murky only in that we don't know whether BRI ever answered or acted on that letter, or if Carl's health leading to him leaving the tour rendered the letter moot. Ray mentioned that Brian's take on the situation was that Carl should be allowed to tour as long as he (Carl) felt he was able to and wanted.

I'm guessing the letter was rendered moot before long, as Mike never quit in 1997 as far as I can tell, and there's no evidence Carl leaving (temporarily at the time) in August of 1997 was due to anything but immediate health issues. If Carl had gotten somewhat better but was still in rough shape and tried to continue touring later in 1997 or 1998, perhaps then there would have been that impasse with Mike vis-a-vis BRI. Remember as well that the whole Al/David thing was going down at this same time. Things may have gotten *even uglier* in 1997/98 had all that happened at the same time.

Dark times for the band in a myriad of ways.


Title: Re: 1997 Tour Footage w/Carl on YouTube
Post by: Tony S on November 09, 2020, 01:21:13 PM
Clearly Mike love doing whatever he could to exercise both Carl and Al from the band any way he could. What a classless guy.


Title: Re: 1997 Tour Footage w/Carl on YouTube
Post by: ♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇 on November 09, 2020, 01:24:22 PM
Which begs the question...what would’ve happened had Mike left at that point?


Title: Re: 1997 Tour Footage w/Carl on YouTube
Post by: Lonely Summer on November 09, 2020, 01:25:12 PM
My impression was always that Carl toured as long as he possibly could. We don't have a lot of information about his final months; I probably got more information about the very end from Billy Hinsche's documentary than anywhere else.
It is still amazing to me that he sounded as good as he did on that final tour. Without the visuals, I would not have guessed anything was wrong with him.
I think the difference between his situation and Brian's is, Brian has not sounded great in several years now. Brian Wilson live has usually been a hit or miss proposition, depending on how he was feeling on any given day, but in recent years, he seems to be having more bad days than good days.


Title: Re: 1997 Tour Footage w/Carl on YouTube
Post by: Jay on November 09, 2020, 01:34:31 PM
I think Carl actually sounded better during the 1997 tour than he had in the last two or three years prior.


Title: Re: 1997 Tour Footage w/Carl on YouTube
Post by: ♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇 on November 09, 2020, 01:55:02 PM
I agree


Title: Re: 1997 Tour Footage w/Carl on YouTube
Post by: HeyJude on November 09, 2020, 03:22:42 PM
Which begs the question...what would’ve happened had Mike left at that point?

"What ifs" are always dicey. My first impulse is to say that Mike simply never would have followed through.

But if he *had* somehow, my guess is that, had everything else gone down the same (Carl leaving the tour seemingly temporarily and then his passing several months later), Mike simply would have re-appeared in the band once Carl had to leave.

The timing of that letter to BRI isn't known. Was it before or after Mike had tentatively secured David Marks to come back? Was it before or after his own company had taken over producing the live tours?

It's interesting. I'm not sure how many times Mike ever floated/threatened to leave the band over the years, but I'd say his possibly quitting early in the 2012 tour (as described in his book) was a situation where he would have had far more leverage than in 1997. In 2012, the entire marketing hinged on it being a "reunion"; one of the core four guys quitting would have caused major problems. Whereas, in 1997 the tour was kind of running itself. Could Al and Bruce and backing guys have done a BB tour? Yes, and surely they would have added a few extra people. Would that have worked long-term? Much harder to say.

Don't get me wrong, I think Mike considers himself as having such strong ownership of the BB name that I'd say most any "threat" to leave, or quit touring, etc., would be pretty empty. I don't think he'd ever willingly give it up.


Title: Re: 1997 Tour Footage w/Carl on YouTube
Post by: Pretty Funky on November 09, 2020, 04:55:03 PM
Call me naive, but I do not believe a label or those promoting the whole 2012 package would have lifted a finger until they had 4 signatures (5 when David came onboard). The thought of Mike being permitted to ‘walk’ over something as trivial as auto tuning (as he claims) without a legal battle I find absurd given his reputation in the industry.


Title: Re: 1997 Tour Footage w/Carl on YouTube
Post by: Lonely Summer on November 09, 2020, 07:28:15 PM
I can't imagine a touring Beach Boys band without Mike leading it.
Let's assume for a moment that Carl recovered from his illness; would Mike still have tried to kick him out of the band? What would happen then? Would Carl and Al team up as a rival Beach Boys band? Would BRI grant them the touring license instead of Mike and Bruce? Or would Carl and Al be content to tour under their own names? "Carl Wilson and Al Jardine formerly of the Beach Boys"? "An evening of Beach Boys music with Carl Wilson and Al Jardine"? Maybe we would have seen a tour starring "Beckley/Lamm/Wilson"?


Title: Re: 1997 Tour Footage w/Carl on YouTube
Post by: Tony S on November 10, 2020, 04:04:43 AM
It was always a fantasy of mine to see a beach boy unplugged Show featuring Carl Wilson and Al Jardine two voices of The Beach Boys. Yes Mike's nasal voice is what everyone knows but Al can cover Mike leads a lot better sings much better and we all know no one's sings like Carl Wilson. An unplugged concert with Carl and Al would have been truly special. If only...


Title: Re: 1997 Tour Footage w/Carl on YouTube
Post by: guitarfool2002 on November 10, 2020, 08:32:48 AM
Call me naive, but I do not believe a label or those promoting the whole 2012 package would have lifted a finger until they had 4 signatures (5 when David came onboard). The thought of Mike being permitted to ‘walk’ over something as trivial as auto tuning (as he claims) without a legal battle I find absurd given his reputation in the industry.

More information to weigh into the absurdity of that scenario - Mike was one-third of a 3-way legal partnership, or LLC, called "50 Big Ones" that was specifically established to administer the activities around the 50th anniversary. It was Mike, Brian, and Joe Thomas who were partners in the LLC. So let's say Mike was indeed going to "walk away" and quit due to the way his wife was treated, or autotune devices clipped onto mics, or any number of his other gripes about that tour...In order to do so fully he would have needed to legally dissolve the partnership, or LLC, and he'd be on the hook for potentially millions in lawsuits and other assorted legal claims beyond breach of contract if he were simply a contracted band member who quit. I guess a simplistic way of putting it would be any employee can quit a business any day they want, any owner or sole proprietor of a business can close the business and quit, but someone in a legal partnership, LLC situation cannot simply decide one day to quit without a lot of legal and financial ramifications from the partners and any clients/entities they are contracted to work with or for. In other words I think Mike's threats to quit or claims he was going to quit that C50 tour have to be taken with a grain of salt, if not an entire bag of salt.


Title: Re: 1997 Tour Footage w/Carl on YouTube
Post by: Cool Cool Water on November 13, 2020, 04:52:33 AM
Looks like someone posted about 30 minutes of concert footage from a pre-September 1997 Beach Boys show with Carl. As we all know, 1997 footage is pretty rare (some point out that folks might be holding back footage of Carl not doing too well, and while that's one possibility, I also think just not that many folks bothered to capture the mid-late 90s somewhat rote BB show on video).

In any event, here's "I Can Hear Music": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aD41cFE_rJE

And here is the full available footage (the first half of this video is an unrelated later Brian solo show): https://youtu.be/6AXmO42nfKU?t=2925

Thanks for posting.


Title: Re: 1997 Tour Footage w/Carl on YouTube
Post by: Cool Cool Water on November 13, 2020, 05:00:25 AM
Carl sounded just as good in 1997.