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Smiley Smile Stuff => General On Topic Discussions => Topic started by: Rebel on June 26, 2020, 08:56:20 PM



Title: Could Brian write music in the style of 'Pet Sounds' after Pet Sounds?
Post by: Rebel on June 26, 2020, 08:56:20 PM
I know... After Pet Sounds a new era of Smile began which was drastically different. Then after the demise of Smile there were sporadic moments of Pet Sounds, to some degree, - Busy Doin' Nothin' all the way to Had To Phone Ya.... And on his solo albums at spots.

But the question is: was Brian 'reluctant' to write in the Pet Sounds style - either because it didn't do so well at the time, or because everyone wanted it, or it wouldn't have fit in with the 'times'... Or had so much time accumulated that he was incapable of making music in that style?

From Surfin' Safari to Pet Sounds you can hear and follow the growth and the accumulation of everything Brian had learned to the zenith that is Pet Sounds. Smile was, of course, a 'one-up' of Pet Sounds but totally different.

How come Brian didn't ever really try to write in the style of Pet Sounds again?


Title: Re: Could Brian write music in the style of 'Pet Sounds' after Pet Sounds?
Post by: juggler on June 26, 2020, 09:20:26 PM
Great questions, worthy of discussion.

I don't completely 100% accept your premise that Brian went into something "drastically different" the Smile sessions.  Things certainly did get very avant-garde late in '66 and into '67, perhaps buoyed by the success of Good Vibrations.  But my gut feeling when listening to the early tracking sessions for some of the Smile songs like Wonderful, Wind Chimes, Holidays, Look and CIFOTM is that, with Tony Asher's lyrics, some or all of those wouldn't have been out of place on Pet Sounds.

Also, I still maintain that the 1996 Wilson-Asher collaboration "Everything I Need" is a hell of a great song... and it was (yet another heartbreaking) missed opportunity that Brian & Tony didn't do more together during that period.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRc_ao2NrIk


Title: Re: Could Brian write music in the style of 'Pet Sounds' after Pet Sounds?
Post by: phirnis on June 26, 2020, 11:07:43 PM
Totally agree about "Everything I Need", brilliant song! That recording from the Paley sessions (?) definitely has a Pet Sounds vibe. Not a big fan of the sugar-coated official version on the Wilsons album.


Title: Re: Could Brian write music in the style of 'Pet Sounds' after Pet Sounds?
Post by: Joshilyn Hoisington on June 27, 2020, 07:12:32 AM
Define "music in the style of Pet Sounds".


Title: Re: Could Brian write music in the style of 'Pet Sounds' after Pet Sounds?
Post by: SBonilla on June 27, 2020, 07:19:58 AM
After Smile, Brian no longer had the budgets to record/compose/arrange in the way he had before.  His creative environment changed, as well. And, the group became more democratic. Brian was no longer the Duke Ellington of the Beach Boys, in practice. In spirit, he remained that and more.


Title: Re: Could Brian write music in the style of 'Pet Sounds' after Pet Sounds?
Post by: guitarfool2002 on June 27, 2020, 08:01:04 AM
I think one reason - maybe the main reason - why Brian never did "another Pet Sounds" can be found in what McCartney and Harrison have said about the Beatles music in the 60's. Once they did something new in their music or in the studio, they did it and moved on to try other new things. That is why we can trace the Beatles' recorded output year by year and they don't sound the same. Again, it was specifically Harrison and McCartney who have commented most about this, along with Emerick and Martin. That's why you don't hear much of the Rickenbacker 12-string after 1966, you don't hear backwards tape after 68, you don't hear other signature sounds all that much apart from a cameo appearance here and there after they used those sounds for one or two albums or singles. They'd have a sound or a technique for a year or two, then move on.

One of the answers similar to all that comes from Brian himself when he recorded his conversation with Murry after the Rhonda session. Brian asked Murry "So you think we should have the 409 sound on Help Me Rhonda?" dripping with sarcasm. And that's pretty much where Brian's production, arranging, and writing came from in the 1960's. Once he did Pet Sounds, he moved on. Once he did GV and Heroes, he moved on. Once he did Wild Honey and Darlin, he moved on. You can trace it back to the first batch of songs he recorded at Western with Chuck.

I think that's one element which set at least these two massively successful bands apart, and it's why we're still so invested in them over 50 years later. They remained themselves in their music, yet they continued to change and move forward. Unlike some who would have wanted it, perhaps, The Beatles did not have "the She Loves You sound" on Revolver, and The Beach Boys did not have "the 409 sound on Help Me Rhonda". They grew and moved forward. If they wanted to revisit those sounds, it was often done when they were solo artists and doing a blast of nostalgia or even self-parody. Or working with collaborators who may have had a fetish for those old sounds.

It could be as simple as that.


Title: Re: Could Brian write music in the style of 'Pet Sounds' after Pet Sounds?
Post by: WillJC on June 27, 2020, 08:07:27 AM
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Title: Re: Could Brian write music in the style of 'Pet Sounds' after Pet Sounds?
Post by: rab2591 on June 27, 2020, 08:19:54 AM
Define "music in the style of Pet Sounds".

My opinion: wall-of-sound meets Martin Denny/classical/rock (which Brian had seemed to be building up to for many albums prior to Pet Sounds). The sessionography for every Pet Sounds song is off the charts...Whereas so many Smile songs (and albums after) had less and less personnel working on them (and you can hear this in the sparse instrumentals of 'Wonderful', 'Song For Children', 'Do You Like Worms', etc). Also, after Pet Sounds Brian really started his "puzzle piece"/"Cut-and paste" style of recording. Even into Wild Honey there were songs where the verse was recorded as one section, then he'd splice in a chorus. It was just so different than the recording style of Pet Sounds.

I know you probably asked that question rhetorically...but I myself see Pet Sounds being this natural climax in a culmination of musical experiments. Then Smile comes and Brian's style suddenly and completely jumps the rails.

As for the initial question that started the thread: I think the answer lies in how emotionally attached he was to Pet Sounds. Pet Sounds was the only album that I'm aware of where Brian went home to the wife, put the record on, and they cried at how beautiful it was. It was a pinnacle moment that he probably knew he couldn't top again (at least in that same style).

He had to walk away from it because it was completed. There was nothing more to add to that style that would ever compare again. He has since recorded many songs similar to the Pet Sounds style (as has been discussed above), but it still doesn't compare. I mean, when the Gershwin album was done in some Pet Sounds style some people called it "paint by numbers" because of how it seemed to be completely lifted from Brian's previous styles. I think Brian had tried everything to shift away from being tethered to one style post-Pet Sounds.


Title: Re: Could Brian write music in the style of 'Pet Sounds' after Pet Sounds?
Post by: Joshilyn Hoisington on June 27, 2020, 08:56:42 AM
I'm with Craig here -- Brian "couldn't" keep writing music in the style of Pet Sounds (whatever that means) because, well, why would he?  And my point about defining it is that, it's sometimes less about "writing in the style of" and more about following arrangement and production trends.  As soon as Friends, Brian was back to hiring a dozen Studio musicians to come realise his productions.  And until the 70s, he continued to work that way.  The same musicians that are on Wouldn't It Be Nice (not entirely literally) are on Sunflower.  You can take a Sunflower track and arrange it to sound like a Pet Sounds track.

But again, why do that when, not only you've evolved, but also, the recording industry was totally different, having entered the multi-track-style recording era?



Title: Re: Could Brian write music in the style of 'Pet Sounds' after Pet Sounds?
Post by: rab2591 on June 27, 2020, 10:14:33 AM
I see what you mean there. I was looking at things from a production side, but I now see that's not what OP was referring to.

In my mind, I see Pet Sounds, Friends, and Love You as a trilogy - because they are all very similar in theme and writing, however each has tremendously different production reflecting their different eras. So yeah, from a writing perspective I see what you all are saying.


Title: Re: Could Brian write music in the style of 'Pet Sounds' after Pet Sounds?
Post by: Bicyclerider on June 27, 2020, 10:24:15 AM

Brian in his solo career has gone back to a “Pet Sounds” production style multiple times, evident in What I Really Want for Christmas on.  Bass harmonicas, horns and strings, percussion all reminiscent of Pet Sounds.  I think he went back to that well because he no longer had new ideas for a new “sound” and he knew his band was expert at recreating his original PS production style. 


Title: Re: Could Brian write music in the style of 'Pet Sounds' after Pet Sounds?
Post by: Mitchell on June 27, 2020, 11:46:27 AM
Our Sweet Love.

I agree that by the time an artist has achieved something and moved on, it can seem like self-parody to revisit it later. It's forgivable on the way up (building towards the peak) but lamentable on the way down (rehashing old ideas, etc.). Then you get fans who want the same thing over and over, so they're happy with the "return to form" but reject other directions.

Take any artist with a storied career and a definitive peak and I'm sure you could ask the same questions.


Title: Re: Could Brian write music in the style of 'Pet Sounds' after Pet Sounds?
Post by: Lonely Summer on June 28, 2020, 12:41:04 PM

Brian in his solo career has gone back to a “Pet Sounds” production style multiple times, evident in What I Really Want for Christmas on.  Bass harmonicas, horns and strings, percussion all reminiscent of Pet Sounds.  I think he went back to that well because he no longer had new ideas for a new “sound” and he knew his band was expert at recreating his original PS production style. 
Exactly.
There are many songs from Brian's solo career that have a PS writing and production style to them.
Melt Away is a PS song for the 80's.
Rio Grande is Smile for the 80's.
Too Much Sugar is Beach Boys Love Your for the 80's.


Title: Re: Could Brian write music in the style of 'Pet Sounds' after Pet Sounds?
Post by: Jay on June 28, 2020, 05:30:41 PM
I think the MIU outtake "Why?" comes closest to the Pet Sounds style. I don't know who wrote or produced it though.


Title: Re: Could Brian write music in the style of 'Pet Sounds' after Pet Sounds?
Post by: Tom on July 30, 2020, 07:54:12 PM
Pet Sounds was the pinnacle of a sound that Brian had been building since "Today" (and arguably select examples earlier). To try and continue in a style that he'd already 'done' to the best of his ability would probably have seemed redundant at the time. The Beatles comparison is apt - once they'd done Rubber Soul they'd more or less 'done' that sound and were ready to do something new.


Title: Re: Could Brian write music in the style of 'Pet Sounds' after Pet Sounds?
Post by: ♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇 on July 31, 2020, 12:44:24 AM
Pet Sounds was the pinnacle of a sound that Brian had been building since "Today" (and arguably select examples earlier). To try and continue in a style that he'd already 'done' to the best of his ability would probably have seemed redundant at the time. The Beatles comparison is apt - once they'd done Rubber Soul they'd more or less 'done' that sound and were ready to do something new.

Exactly


Title: Re: Could Brian write music in the style of 'Pet Sounds' after Pet Sounds?
Post by: phirnis on July 31, 2020, 06:54:35 AM
I think the MIU outtake "Why?" comes closest to the Pet Sounds style. I don't know who wrote or produced it though.

According to the MiC box set credits it was written and produced by Brian. It really reminds me of That's Why God Made the Radio.


Title: Re: Could Brian write music in the style of 'Pet Sounds' after Pet Sounds?
Post by: Empire Of Love on August 03, 2020, 06:21:39 AM
I am a conflicted person.  Part of me wishes my favorite artists would put out more music exactly like the songs that made me fall in love with them.  The other part of me wants to see them grow and mature.  Brian’s progress from the surf/car songs up through Pet Sounds is glorious to hear.  There is a feeling captured in those early songs that culminates in Pet Sounds.  That feeling, for me, is gone in the Smile material and beyond.  I can appreciate some of tbe later material, but rarely does it capture that feeling again.

This is probably why I thoroughly enjoy artists such as The Explorer’s Club.  Jason Brewer’s music sounds as if he has unearthed hidden Brian Wilson gems, he captures that Today-Summer Days-Pet Sounds feeling almost as well as Brian did!

With that said, if you like the Pet Sounds sound, give this a listen:

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,27256.0.html

Brilliant stuff by this guy who has posted on this board here and there.

EoL


Title: Re: Could Brian write music in the style of 'Pet Sounds' after Pet Sounds?
Post by: rab2591 on August 03, 2020, 07:23:24 AM
That feeling, for me, is gone in the Smile material and beyond.  I can appreciate some of tbe later material, but rarely does it capture that feeling again.

It's odd, because the '66/'67 Smile Sessions sound so sparse to me, void of that ethereal/magical sound that each Pet Sounds track has. IMO, 'Cabinessense' and 'Surf's Up' are the closest things in those original SMiLE recordings that invoke the magic of Pet Sounds.

The entirety of BWPS, on the other hand, somehow recaptures that magic (to my ears). I am very much in the minority, but I will take BWPS any day over the original Smile recordings...and I don't know what it is! Because they are literally playing the same exact music in the same exact way, but it's something to do with the mix, recording process (Also all of the vocals are complete on BWPS). The best way I can explain it is that BWPS sounds happy. The original recordings (as brilliant as they are) sound sometimes dreary, void of a spark. It's like you can feel Brian's anxiety in some of those recordings (maybe I'm the only one who feels this way).

Anyways, back to your point, EOL, I agree that through the rest of Brian's career he didn't really re-capture that Pet Sounds feeling for whatever reason. I think the closest he ever came to that feeling again (with The Beach Boys) was with Friends. The songwriting on Love You definitely has that vibe, but the synths kinda distract you from that feeling.


Title: Re: Could Brian write music in the style of 'Pet Sounds' after Pet Sounds?
Post by: Tom on August 03, 2020, 08:10:43 AM
It's pretty clear to me that he decided he wanted to focus on making commercial music at some point in '67. They never recreated the 'feeling' of Pet Sounds, but I find the feeling on an album like Wild Honey is just as exciting, albeit in a very different way. Aren't You Glad and Here Comes the Night are such a joy - just a snare drum on both yet they groove along impeccably.

I like a few Explorers Club tracks but overall I'm not as hyped as many. The production is too sterile and the vocals are just okay imo.


Title: Re: Could Brian write music in the style of 'Pet Sounds' after Pet Sounds?
Post by: phirnis on August 04, 2020, 01:29:51 AM
It's pretty clear to me that he decided he wanted to focus on making commercial music at some point in '67. They never recreated the 'feeling' of Pet Sounds, but I find the feeling on an album like Wild Honey is just as exciting, albeit in a very different way. Aren't You Glad and Here Comes the Night are such a joy - just a snare drum on both yet they groove along impeccably.

I like a few Explorers Club tracks but overall I'm not as hyped as many. The production is too sterile and the vocals are just okay imo.

Brian always wanted his music to sell I think. For me, the band's work between '63 and '68 is all brilliant. I can see why Pet Sounds is singled out but that doesn't mean that other records are any less impressive.


Title: Re: Could Brian write music in the style of 'Pet Sounds' after Pet Sounds?
Post by: TimeToGetAlone on August 04, 2020, 12:23:21 PM
Always found "Let's Put Our Hearts Together" in terms of composition was very much in the vein of Pet Sounds.


Title: Re: Could Brian write music in the style of 'Pet Sounds' after Pet Sounds?
Post by: urbanite on August 04, 2020, 12:39:04 PM
Aren't You Glad is a pleasant song, but it shows that BW had lost some of his ability to make a hit single.


Title: Re: Could Brian write music in the style of 'Pet Sounds' after Pet Sounds?
Post by: Tom on August 05, 2020, 02:20:50 AM
Brian always wanted his music to sell I think. For me, the band's work between '63 and '68 is all brilliant. I can see why Pet Sounds is singled out but that doesn't mean that other records are any less impressive.

I agree and I think many of his statements bear this out. Even his decision to shelve Smile on the basis that it was 'inappropriate music' - he worked hard on Heroes and Villains in early '67 to make it commercial, but when it didn't chart as well as Good Vibrations I believe this was a big turning point for him. Wild Honey and Friends are pretty much a return to standard song structures, even if some of the arrangements and musical content are still sort of experimental.


Title: Re: Could Brian write music in the style of 'Pet Sounds' after Pet Sounds?
Post by: Tom on August 05, 2020, 02:27:20 AM
Aren't You Glad is a pleasant song, but it shows that BW had lost some of his ability to make a hit single.

I don't agree that Brian had quite lost his hit making mojo at this point. Wild Honey and Darlin did pretty well despite their semi lo-fi production which was quite out of step of the time. Do It Again was also a big hit in the UK.

As for Aren't You Glad specifically, I feel the verse and pre-chorus are very hooky and single-worthy - the chorus melody and chord progression is just a bit lacklustre unfortunately. But that song was never slated as a single as far as I can tell.


Title: Re: Could Brian write music in the style of 'Pet Sounds' after Pet Sounds?
Post by: Tom on August 05, 2020, 02:27:21 AM
Aren't You Glad is a pleasant song, but it shows that BW had lost some of his ability to make a hit single.

I don't agree that Brian had quite lost his hit making mojo at this point. Wild Honey and Darlin did pretty well despite their semi lo-fi production which was quite out of step for the time. Do It Again was also a big hit in the UK.

As for Aren't You Glad specifically, I feel the verse and pre-chorus are very hooky and single-worthy - the chorus melody and chord progression is just a bit lacklustre unfortunately. But that song was never slated as a single as far as I can tell.


Title: Re: Could Brian write music in the style of 'Pet Sounds' after Pet Sounds?
Post by: phirnis on August 05, 2020, 11:41:45 AM
Brian wrote and recorded some hit-worthy material after Heroes and Villains. I agree that Do It Again is a great example. Break Away, however, was different. Unlike Do It Again, which was meant to be simple, that one was clearly a conscious attempt to create another big production like Help Me Rhonda or California Girls. I love Break Away but it's not in that same category, it doesn't sound as convincing in terms of sounding like a hit record.


Title: Re: Could Brian write music in the style of 'Pet Sounds' after Pet Sounds?
Post by: juggler on August 05, 2020, 04:05:29 PM
One factor that's been absent from this discussion is the role that the relatively greater success of Barbara Ann & Party! compared to Pet Sounds may have had on Brian's mindset.   If you dash off Party! on a lark but it sells better your subsequent magnum opus Pet Sounds, what does that tell you?  Maybe it tells you that you missed the mark a bit.  We see PS now as the high-water mark, but BW didn't see it like that at the time. If he had, he wouldn't have been going around promising that Smile would be "better"  and "as much of an improvement over Pet Sounds as that was over Summer Days."   I do think that many of the Smile tracks plus "Time to Get Alone" etc wouldn't have been out of place on PS, and Brian was capable of doing that again if he had wanted to.

Breakaway is interesting.  Yes, the attempt was a return to the big production song.   Why wasn't it a hit?  It's a good song. Maybe Capitol didn't promote it enough.  And maybe it just wasn't catchy enough of a tune. Maybe Murry's lyrics were nothing special.  Maybe giving Al or Mike the lead vocal would have done the trick.  Heck, maybe giving Mike background vocals would have helped.  Who knows. You can't strike gold every time.


Title: Re: Could Brian write music in the style of 'Pet Sounds' after Pet Sounds?
Post by: WillJC on August 05, 2020, 04:19:31 PM
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Title: Re: Could Brian write music in the style of 'Pet Sounds' after Pet Sounds?
Post by: guitarfool2002 on August 05, 2020, 04:29:42 PM
Aren't You Glad, I disagree, it's one of the catchiest songs of that era and the arrangement had all of the elements that could have made it a hit had it been released as a single for late '67 going into '68. Horn bands were on the radio and would be so even more in the next year or two, and "Darlin" was pretty standard on the setlists of working bands with a horn section like Chicago Transit Authority who were playing the current hits in clubs at that time.

Studio version aside, listen to the live version of Aren't You Glad on the "Live In London" album, and it's pure energy and magic, which is testament to the song itself alongside how tight that band was at that time. It could have been a hit record if it were released the right way.


Title: Re: Could Brian write music in the style of 'Pet Sounds' after Pet Sounds?
Post by: Tom on August 05, 2020, 05:46:58 PM
Break Away is an interesting one. Based on the info that was in the Desper study video, it seems like Brian fully believed it would be a hit. Perhaps the chart success of I Can Hear Music gave him the initial idea that another Spector-inspired single could be viable.

The song itself is gorgeous in terms of the production, but I agree with others that it wasn't hit material. The chorus is fun once you're used to it but I'll admit it doesn't really work or propel the song into the listener's long term consciousness. Overall it kind of feels like a weaker, more downtempo sequel to Darlin (similar vocal rhythm in the verse especially). But as I said, I still really enjoy it. I actually find the coda to be the best part - I disagree that stripping it down killed the momentum - just gives it the chance to build up rather than hitting you with everything at once.

It really does seem like Break Away was the final straw for Brian - he'd focused all his efforts on making this track as commercial as he possibly could, and it charted terribly. As we know it was really in '69 that he first started to take a major step back, and I believe the failure of Break Away was a catalyst. He still wrote new stuff for Sunflower, but it's clear he wasn't trying to be commercial anymore for the most part, instead just doing what he wanted to (When Girls Get Together, H.E.L.P., Good Time, Just Got My Pay).


Title: Re: Could Brian write music in the style of 'Pet Sounds' after Pet Sounds?
Post by: Mitchell on August 09, 2020, 08:33:05 PM
As much as I love it, the post-Pet Sounds era has a more "dead" sound to it, until Sunflower. It's not surprising that the passé Beach Boys couldn't get a hit, though the quality of the music certainly deserved it.

To elaborate on my comment above, I remember listening to 20 Golden Greats a lot as a kid, and everything up to Heroes and Villains has a "drop of sunshine" feel to it; a bright summer day at the beach or cruising around. H&V is an odd duck anyway, so I'll skip that, but Darlin' to me evoked a "backyard patio in the evening" kind of feeling, and that just wasn't as commercial. It marks a definite point where the sound changed, and it's probably not a coincidence that their commercial fortunes waned at the same time (among dozens of other factors).


Title: Re: Could Brian write music in the style of 'Pet Sounds' after Pet Sounds?
Post by: Tom on August 10, 2020, 08:32:56 PM
The sound changed for sure - maybe due to financial limitations, but also probably because Brian didn't want to deal with large sessions with 15+ players after Smile.

Also, it was a stylistic choice to a point - Wild Honey and Friends would sound dumb if they were swathed in chamber reverb like Pet Sounds.


Title: Re: Could Brian write music in the style of 'Pet Sounds' after Pet Sounds?
Post by: phirnis on August 13, 2020, 12:07:09 AM
I agree, clearly an artistic choice for those two albums - and let's not forget that the Beach Boys weren't alone with their stripped-back approach, only for them it didn't really pay off commercially. WH and Friends still sounded like albums with major Brian involvement. Don't get me wrong, they put out some amazing material in the years that followed but to me, nothing really matched that creative spark that Brian brought to the music and after Friends the albums certainly began to sound more patchy and less homogeneous (except for Holland, which has a great sound of its own from start to finish).