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Smiley Smile Stuff => General On Topic Discussions => Topic started by: PickupExcitations on May 14, 2020, 03:13:12 AM



Title: The first time The Beach Boys used the 8-track recorder
Post by: PickupExcitations on May 14, 2020, 03:13:12 AM
I wanna know about the timeline.

The Beach Boys started to use CBS Columbia Square in the Summer Days (And Summer Nights) sessions, because of an early 8-track recorder. What was the first song they ever did that (using the recorder)? And what was the date? And The Byrds, who signed with Columbia Records at that time, recorded Mr. Tambourine Man in CBS Columbia Square slightly earlier than The Beach Boys' Summer Days (And Summer Nights), so did The Byrds use the 8-track recorder in that album?

In other words, were there any musicians using that 8-track to produce an album (or a song) before The Beach Boys did?


Title: Re: The first time The Beach Boys used the 8-track recorder
Post by: c-man on May 14, 2020, 07:00:54 AM
Documentation is a bit sketchy, but the date would possibly be May 24, 1965, in a marathon session for "You're So Good To Me", "The Girl From New York City", "I'm Bugged At My Old Man", and "And Your Dream Comes True". However, Bruce has stated numerous times that his first vocal session with the group was for "California Girls", meaning it's possible that the later date given for that one (June 4) might really be the final mixdown date, and that their first use of the 8-track was really prior to May 24th. :)


Title: Re: The first time The Beach Boys used the 8-track recorder
Post by: zaval80 on May 14, 2020, 11:35:03 AM

In other words, were there any musicians using that 8-track to produce an album (or a song) before The Beach Boys did?

Les Paul? The Drifters, “Save the Last Dance for Me”?

http://lespaulremembered.com/tom-dowd-and-the-8-track.html


Title: Re: The first time The Beach Boys used the 8-track recorder
Post by: WillJC on May 14, 2020, 11:41:21 AM
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Title: Re: The first time The Beach Boys used the 8-track recorder
Post by: DonnyL on May 14, 2020, 11:57:14 AM
I wanna know about the timeline.

The Beach Boys started to use CBS Columbia Square in the Summer Days (And Summer Nights) sessions, because of an early 8-track recorder. What was the first song they ever did that (using the recorder)? And what was the date? And The Byrds, who signed with Columbia Records at that time, recorded Mr. Tambourine Man in CBS Columbia Square slightly earlier than The Beach Boys' Summer Days (And Summer Nights), so did The Byrds use the 8-track recorder in that album?

In other words, were there any musicians using that 8-track to produce an album (or a song) before The Beach Boys did?

I doubt "Mr. Tambourine Man" was 8-track, but don't know for sure.

As Today are 3 and 4-track, Summer Days is definitely the first album that used 8-track. But 3 and 4-track track was still used on Pet Sounds, so it depends on the song. It seems Brian used Columbia when he wanted to stack lots of vocals.

C-Man - as we know the entire backing track was dubbed onto *1-track* of the 8-track master in these instances ... I've always wondered if they mixed the track from 4-track to mono at Western, then brought it into Columbia on a mono reel, or they actually brought the 4-track master and mixed it there. One theory I've had is that the "reference mix" often found on a single track on the 4-tracks of this era might actually be the mono mix transferred at Columbia.


Title: Re: The first time The Beach Boys used the 8-track recorder
Post by: WillJC on May 14, 2020, 12:13:42 PM
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Title: Re: The first time The Beach Boys used the 8-track recorder
Post by: DonnyL on May 14, 2020, 02:23:07 PM
A strange one getting into late '66 is Brian occasionally going to Columbia for vocals only to dub the instrumental onto another 4-track for vocals rather than taking advantage of their 8-track recorder. Wind Chimes was handled like that (from both 4-track and 8-track session tapes), and I think Cabin Essence too?

This is just one example, but in the case of Good Vibrations it seems like Brian put the mono track together and overdubbed the cello/theremin parts on 4-track at Western, then 'dubbed up' the results to an 8-track tape at Columbia a couple of months later for vocals. Then when it came to the replacement organ bridge section, the "hum-be-dum" vocals were overdubbed onto the 4-track session tape itself, so that would've been mixed down (sans bass harmonica and backing vocals) and incorporated into the track edit at Columbia. I think the location for mixing tracks was flexible.

That's interesting. I wonder if there were practical considerations (i.e., the booked Columbia for the 8-track but it was down; Western was booked so they went to Columbia because they had a vocal dub workflow there, etc.).

At this point I'm not so much interested in *where* the tracks were mixed, so much as *how* that backtrack was transferred. Call me perverse, but it's interesting that they dubbed the entire track to one-track on an 8-track (less than half the width of a mono full-track - lesser sound quality) ... but the possibility that they did this 2-3 times is interesting to me. I wonder if this has anything to do with what you might call the "lo-fi majesty" of the 65-66 era on some of the final mixes. Also interested to know if Brian was more interested in getting that track mix locked in w/ Britz at Western vs doing it at Columbia from the 4-track, potentially w/ better ultimate sound quality.


Title: Re: The first time The Beach Boys used the 8-track recorder
Post by: WillJC on May 14, 2020, 02:37:17 PM
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Title: Re: The first time The Beach Boys used the 8-track recorder
Post by: zaval80 on May 14, 2020, 03:27:29 PM
Probably a precaution, not to delete by accident.


Title: Re: The first time The Beach Boys used the 8-track recorder
Post by: hideyotsuburaya on May 14, 2020, 05:08:15 PM
that track (mono) mix would want to be dedicated to either tracks 1 or 4, and the engineer chose 4 as a convention.  tracks 1 and 4 are in the outermost location on a tape.  because the track has volume during passages of vocals (to be applied) that may be quiet, putting the instrument mix at an outermost physical tape location minimizes the effect of cross-talk to an adjacent (vocal) track, which is always undesirable (it may be considered an unpredictable tell-tale that could conceivably contribute to phasings and other unknowns later)


Title: Re: The first time The Beach Boys used the 8-track recorder
Post by: guitarfool2002 on May 14, 2020, 05:22:55 PM
that track (mono) mix would want to be dedicated to either tracks 1 or 4, and the engineer chose 4 as a convention.  tracks 1 and 4 are in the outermost location on a tape.  because the track has volume during passages of vocals (to be applied) that may be quiet, putting the instrument mix at an outermost physical tape location minimizes the effect of cross-talk to an adjacent (vocal) track, which is always undesirable (it may be considered an unpredictable tell-tale that could conceivably contribute to phasings and other unknowns later)

That's a good explanation getting more into the sonics and physics of multitrack tape! What I was going to say is it was and has always (or usually) been the way you build up tracks in general, a lot of it to do with basic organizing and ease of working the mix and faders. My experience, for basic tracks you'd start with drums on the first few (like kick 1, overheads 2&3, snare 4, etc...), then bass, then guitars, then maybe vocals then ornaments like percussion, noises, etc. going up the numbered tracks. It just lines everything up. Every engineer has their own way, but that was usually standard especially mixing analog when I saw it.

So you wouldn't for example choose to start tracking on track 3, then leave 2 open, then do 1...it's too damn confusing. That's why if it were 8 track, you'd more often leave the higher track numbers like 7 and 8 open for bounces or reduction mixes.


Title: Re: The first time The Beach Boys used the 8-track recorder
Post by: guitarfool2002 on May 14, 2020, 05:34:21 PM
A strange one getting into late '66 is Brian occasionally going to Columbia for vocals only to dub the instrumental onto another 4-track for vocals rather than taking advantage of their 8-track recorder. Wind Chimes was handled like that (from both 4-track and 8-track session tapes), and I think Cabin Essence too?

This is just one example, but in the case of Good Vibrations it seems like Brian put the mono track together and overdubbed the cello/theremin parts on 4-track at Western, then 'dubbed up' the results to an 8-track tape at Columbia a couple of months later for vocals. Then when it came to the replacement organ bridge section, the "hum-be-dum" vocals were overdubbed onto the 4-track session tape itself, so that would've been mixed down (sans bass harmonica and backing vocals) and incorporated into the track edit at Columbia. I think the location for mixing tracks was flexible.

That's interesting. I wonder if there were practical considerations (i.e., the booked Columbia for the 8-track but it was down; Western was booked so they went to Columbia because they had a vocal dub workflow there, etc.).

At this point I'm not so much interested in *where* the tracks were mixed, so much as *how* that backtrack was transferred. Call me perverse, but it's interesting that they dubbed the entire track to one-track on an 8-track (less than half the width of a mono full-track - lesser sound quality) ... but the possibility that they did this 2-3 times is interesting to me. I wonder if this has anything to do with what you might call the "lo-fi majesty" of the 65-66 era on some of the final mixes. Also interested to know if Brian was more interested in getting that track mix locked in w/ Britz at Western vs doing it at Columbia from the 4-track, potentially w/ better ultimate sound quality.

What I can say from hearing this multiple times is that Brian preferred to mix with Chuck at Western. That's pretty much known and reported. Did he always mix with Chuck at Western? No. But I'm sure that was his preference.

The one mysterious part, even though I'm sure some have explained or tried to explain it, was how Brian would go back and forth from - say - Western to Columbia then back to Western for an example scenario.

We assume he'd track in 65-66 the instrumental basics and even full instrumental backing tracks at Western on 4-track. Then he'd go to Columbia to record vocals onto 8-track. Then, ostensibly he'd return to Western after laying vocals on 8-track to mix...with Chuck...on 4 track?

There are pieces of that scenario that are missing. Like, did he do a reduction mix of those vocals at Columbia, then come back to Western with one track of vocals having been bounced down and mix on 4-track with Chuck? How were the vocals bounced down to 4-track? Did he reduce both instruments and vocals down to 2 tracks at Columbia then come to Western with 2 tracks of a 4-track tape open to add more? Did they fly in vocal tracks from another machine, which would cause all kinds of synch issues if they could even synch the machines, which I don't think they did in 65?

Not as much on the tracks where we know what he did in these cases, but just in general: What was the standard practice when Western only had 4-track and Brian was layering vocals onto 8-track tapes at Columbia?

Maybe there is no stock answer, and it was done case-by-case. That may be the best answer since the documentation showing all of this may be lost in most cases, if it mattered anyway after they got a final mixdown in the can. But it's still interesting to ponder.

The only clue we have is after a certain point, at least maybe by late Fall '66 after Pet Sounds, we have that silent film of Brian and Chuck mixing something at Western 3 with an 8-track machine. Adding *that* element into the process, where Western also had an 8-track machine available, clears it all up.

But the mystery lies in those earlier Columbia sessions when and where we know Western absolutely did not have an 8-track, yet Brian was still going back and forth from Columbia's 8-track facility to Western's 4-track facility to make and mix these records.


Title: Re: The first time The Beach Boys used the 8-track recorder
Post by: CenturyDeprived on May 14, 2020, 05:42:47 PM

Did they fly in vocal tracks from another machine, which would cause all kinds of synch issues if they could even synch the machines, which I don't think they did in 65?


Could this be the cause of the slightly out of sync chorus vocals on California Girls? I can't recall specifics, but I remember an old late 90s (?) interview with Brian where he lamented not taking more time with those vocals to make them perfect in terms of sync.

I wonder if that was strictly a performance issue that could have been solved with more takes, or if studio tape/sync stuff could be a factor too?


Title: Re: The first time The Beach Boys used the 8-track recorder
Post by: DonnyL on May 14, 2020, 08:59:50 PM
A strange one getting into late '66 is Brian occasionally going to Columbia for vocals only to dub the instrumental onto another 4-track for vocals rather than taking advantage of their 8-track recorder. Wind Chimes was handled like that (from both 4-track and 8-track session tapes), and I think Cabin Essence too?

This is just one example, but in the case of Good Vibrations it seems like Brian put the mono track together and overdubbed the cello/theremin parts on 4-track at Western, then 'dubbed up' the results to an 8-track tape at Columbia a couple of months later for vocals. Then when it came to the replacement organ bridge section, the "hum-be-dum" vocals were overdubbed onto the 4-track session tape itself, so that would've been mixed down (sans bass harmonica and backing vocals) and incorporated into the track edit at Columbia. I think the location for mixing tracks was flexible.

That's interesting. I wonder if there were practical considerations (i.e., the booked Columbia for the 8-track but it was down; Western was booked so they went to Columbia because they had a vocal dub workflow there, etc.).

At this point I'm not so much interested in *where* the tracks were mixed, so much as *how* that backtrack was transferred. Call me perverse, but it's interesting that they dubbed the entire track to one-track on an 8-track (less than half the width of a mono full-track - lesser sound quality) ... but the possibility that they did this 2-3 times is interesting to me. I wonder if this has anything to do with what you might call the "lo-fi majesty" of the 65-66 era on some of the final mixes. Also interested to know if Brian was more interested in getting that track mix locked in w/ Britz at Western vs doing it at Columbia from the 4-track, potentially w/ better ultimate sound quality.

What I can say from hearing this multiple times is that Brian preferred to mix with Chuck at Western. That's pretty much known and reported. Did he always mix with Chuck at Western? No. But I'm sure that was his preference.

The one mysterious part, even though I'm sure some have explained or tried to explain it, was how Brian would go back and forth from - say - Western to Columbia then back to Western for an example scenario.

We assume he'd track in 65-66 the instrumental basics and even full instrumental backing tracks at Western on 4-track. Then he'd go to Columbia to record vocals onto 8-track. Then, ostensibly he'd return to Western after laying vocals on 8-track to mix...with Chuck...on 4 track?

There are pieces of that scenario that are missing. Like, did he do a reduction mix of those vocals at Columbia, then come back to Western with one track of vocals having been bounced down and mix on 4-track with Chuck? How were the vocals bounced down to 4-track? Did he reduce both instruments and vocals down to 2 tracks at Columbia then come to Western with 2 tracks of a 4-track tape open to add more? Did they fly in vocal tracks from another machine, which would cause all kinds of synch issues if they could even synch the machines, which I don't think they did in 65?

Not as much on the tracks where we know what he did in these cases, but just in general: What was the standard practice when Western only had 4-track and Brian was layering vocals onto 8-track tapes at Columbia?

Maybe there is no stock answer, and it was done case-by-case. That may be the best answer since the documentation showing all of this may be lost in most cases, if it mattered anyway after they got a final mixdown in the can. But it's still interesting to ponder.

The only clue we have is after a certain point, at least maybe by late Fall '66 after Pet Sounds, we have that silent film of Brian and Chuck mixing something at Western 3 with an 8-track machine. Adding *that* element into the process, where Western also had an 8-track machine available, clears it all up.

But the mystery lies in those earlier Columbia sessions when and where we know Western absolutely did not have an 8-track, yet Brian was still going back and forth from Columbia's 8-track facility to Western's 4-track facility to make and mix these records.

Yep these are the kinds of questions I haven’t seen many answers to.


Title: Re: The first time The Beach Boys used the 8-track recorder
Post by: WillJC on May 15, 2020, 03:48:54 AM
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Title: Re: The first time The Beach Boys used the 8-track recorder
Post by: zaval80 on May 15, 2020, 04:14:11 AM
I don't think it was much of a problem to sync things back in 1965. All it takes is a varispeed control on one machine, and calibration tones on one track out of 4- and 8-tracked tapes. If the standard tape recorders had no varispeed control, any qualified recording engineer would be capable to install one.

And putting a reduction of vocals from 8-track into the overall mix on 4-track wouldn't have been much of a problem, if ever needed. Exact sync is a necessity when different instrumental tracks must be aligned.


Title: Re: The first time The Beach Boys used the 8-track recorder
Post by: WillJC on May 15, 2020, 04:51:48 AM
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Title: Re: The first time The Beach Boys used the 8-track recorder
Post by: DonnyL on May 15, 2020, 09:01:10 AM
I don't believe that any kind of manual syncing of two machines would have been done in 1965-67 on BB records/West Coast Studios.

I would also assume that "mixes" would have been done at whatever studio the final multi-track was created at. FYI - if you have the original 1960s vinyl (or a small number of other releases on cassette), you can tell which mixes were done at Columbia because they have "step" fades (at the very end of the fadeout, the track will fade in abrupt "step" fades that are maybe 2-3 db at a time). These were smoothed out on every CD release I've ever heard (the fades in general tend to go longer/smoother/sooner on CD releases). I believe this is due to the rotary pots on the board at Columbia. I went through this once, but don't remember the results -- will do it again soon.

I put "mixes" in quotes because I think we are all guilty of thinking in terms of modern sensibilities. "Mixdown" was not really it's own thing in the '60s IMO. It was simply the final "dubdown"/result of the process (remember live parts were routinely added during final mix). Most of the track was already "mixed" ... it was just kind of the final balancing of the multi ... after all, most of the track was "mixed" live. So "where are we gonna mix it?" would never have been a thought to Brian or anyone at the time IMO ... that said, I do feel that whether or not Chuck/Western chambers/etc were utilized on the track before heading into another studio would have been a consideration. And whether or not Brian wanted that mono dub as a final before heading in to do vocals ... I suspect he would have wanted the mono complete but who knows. Which is where I am thinking that 4th "reference" track was the actual mono mix of the track as it would be transferred to 8-track.


Title: Re: The first time The Beach Boys used the 8-track recorder
Post by: DonnyL on May 15, 2020, 09:20:24 AM
Going by the tracksheets floating around for I Just Wasn't Made for These Times, Here Today and God Only Knows, the mono track seems to have consistently been allocated to track 4, same one used for the reference mixes on the original tapes. As someone who knows nothing about how tape transferring works... is that a coincidence or not?

Hmm interesting, doesn't mean much on the 8-track, but I suppose might be the crosstalk thing on the 4-track. Though I would personally think they would have put it on 2 or 3 since edge tracks tend to be more prone to drop-outs etc. TBH I think it was probably just a workflow/process thing, but not sure on that.

That said, it *MIGHT* support the idea that the "4th track" on the 4-track was actually transferred directly to 8-track master. A theory we should consider is the process was:

1. Record track at Western
2. Mix the mono dubdown to track 4 on the 4-track
3. Bring the 4-track to Columbia and transfer track 4. If they did not do it this way, they would have to had set up a mix/balance of the 3 tracks and make the final dub again (what Chuck and Brian already did at Western) *prior to recording any vocals* (notes below on why)
4. Add vocals to the 8-track

This would seem to be the most efficient way to work - though I would think they would have made a mono mix, then taken the 1/4" tape to Columbia. But why waste an extra reel I guess? The best sound quality would have been had by "mixing" the 3 tracks at Columbia directly to 1 track on the 8-track. This might have been done (that's kind of what I'm trying to figure out). This extra step would sacrifice the creative stuff/utilization of resources for some of the "track mix" at Western, and would also not be efficient use of part of the 3-hour vocal session.

One thing I can tell you they did *not* do -- is transfer all 4-tracks to the 8-track (as in 1-4, 4th track being the reference mix) and they decide later to mix the tracks together. This is because the track would be out of sync with either the vocals or the reference mix (the reference mix would already have been out of sync w/ the discrete tracks on the 4-track). This is due to the poor frequency response on the sync head of all 1960s multi-tracks (well until maybe 1968 or so).


Title: Re: The first time The Beach Boys used the 8-track recorder
Post by: zaval80 on May 15, 2020, 10:00:51 AM
This Wiki article has a sensible description of Brian's working process:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_multitrack_recording

not without Wiki bugs, of course - "the 9-CD The Smile Sessions (2011) ", ah ha ha.


Title: Re: The first time The Beach Boys used the 8-track recorder
Post by: Joshilyn Hoisington on May 15, 2020, 10:21:27 AM
Going by the tracksheets floating around for I Just Wasn't Made for These Times, Here Today and God Only Knows, the mono track seems to have consistently been allocated to track 4, same one used for the reference mixes on the original tapes. As someone who knows nothing about how tape transferring works... is that a coincidence or not?

Hmm interesting, doesn't mean much on the 8-track, but I suppose might be the crosstalk thing on the 4-track. Though I would personally think they would have put it on 2 or 3 since edge tracks tend to be more prone to drop-outs etc. TBH I think it was probably just a workflow/process thing, but not sure on that.

That said, it *MIGHT* support the idea that the "4th track" on the 4-track was actually transferred directly to 8-track master. A theory we should consider is the process was:

1. Record track at Western
2. Mix the mono dubdown to track 4 on the 4-track
3. Bring the 4-track to Columbia and transfer track 4. If they did not do it this way, they would have to had set up a mix/balance of the 3 tracks and make the final dub again (what Chuck and Brian already did at Western) *prior to recording any vocals* (notes below on why)
4. Add vocals to the 8-track

This would seem to be the most efficient way to work - though I would think they would have made a mono mix, then taken the 1/4" tape to Columbia. But why waste an extra reel I guess? The best sound quality would have been had by "mixing" the 3 tracks at Columbia directly to 1 track on the 8-track. This might have been done (that's kind of what I'm trying to figure out). This extra step would sacrifice the creative stuff/utilization of resources for some of the "track mix" at Western, and would also not be efficient use of part of the 3-hour vocal session.

One thing I can tell you they did *not* do -- is transfer all 4-tracks to the 8-track (as in 1-4, 4th track being the reference mix) and they decide later to mix the tracks together. This is because the track would be out of sync with either the vocals or the reference mix (the reference mix would already have been out of sync w/ the discrete tracks on the 4-track). This is due to the poor frequency response on the sync head of all 1960s multi-tracks (well until maybe 1968 or so).



I guess one way we could confirm this is to see if Linett has ever compared existing 4th track reference mixes from the Western-originating multis to the instrumental track on the CBS multis?


Title: Re: The first time The Beach Boys used the 8-track recorder
Post by: DonnyL on May 15, 2020, 10:23:33 AM
Going by the tracksheets floating around for I Just Wasn't Made for These Times, Here Today and God Only Knows, the mono track seems to have consistently been allocated to track 4, same one used for the reference mixes on the original tapes. As someone who knows nothing about how tape transferring works... is that a coincidence or not?

Hmm interesting, doesn't mean much on the 8-track, but I suppose might be the crosstalk thing on the 4-track. Though I would personally think they would have put it on 2 or 3 since edge tracks tend to be more prone to drop-outs etc. TBH I think it was probably just a workflow/process thing, but not sure on that.

That said, it *MIGHT* support the idea that the "4th track" on the 4-track was actually transferred directly to 8-track master. A theory we should consider is the process was:

1. Record track at Western
2. Mix the mono dubdown to track 4 on the 4-track
3. Bring the 4-track to Columbia and transfer track 4. If they did not do it this way, they would have to had set up a mix/balance of the 3 tracks and make the final dub again (what Chuck and Brian already did at Western) *prior to recording any vocals* (notes below on why)
4. Add vocals to the 8-track

This would seem to be the most efficient way to work - though I would think they would have made a mono mix, then taken the 1/4" tape to Columbia. But why waste an extra reel I guess? The best sound quality would have been had by "mixing" the 3 tracks at Columbia directly to 1 track on the 8-track. This might have been done (that's kind of what I'm trying to figure out). This extra step would sacrifice the creative stuff/utilization of resources for some of the "track mix" at Western, and would also not be efficient use of part of the 3-hour vocal session.

One thing I can tell you they did *not* do -- is transfer all 4-tracks to the 8-track (as in 1-4, 4th track being the reference mix) and they decide later to mix the tracks together. This is because the track would be out of sync with either the vocals or the reference mix (the reference mix would already have been out of sync w/ the discrete tracks on the 4-track). This is due to the poor frequency response on the sync head of all 1960s multi-tracks (well until maybe 1968 or so).



I guess one way we could confirm this is to see if Linett has ever compared existing 4th track reference mixes from the Western-originating multis to the instrumental track on the CBS multis?

Yeh I think I've floated that idea before. I would think it would be pretty easy to tell (especially if you listen for beginning/end tape sounds/mix variances etc) ... I kind of assume no one really cares much about it ha


Title: Re: The first time The Beach Boys used the 8-track recorder
Post by: DonnyL on May 15, 2020, 10:26:49 AM
So I listened to see which tracks have the "step fades" on the '60s vinyl. Unfortunately, my copy of Pet Sounds seems to have been "helped" in mastering (as was the Steve Hoffman Pet Sounds CD, which I also just listened to), so I'm not totally sure on what I'm hearing on the PS tracks. Summer Days is more obvious.

Here are the tracks (not inclusive) that I would say were mixed at Columbia:

Amusement Parks USA
Salt Lake City
California Girls
Let Him Run Wild
You’re So Good to Me

Wouldn’t It Be Nice
I’m Waiting for the Day
God Only Knows
I Know There’s An Answer
Here Today
I Just Wasn’t Made for These Times



Title: Re: The first time The Beach Boys used the 8-track recorder
Post by: guitarfool2002 on May 15, 2020, 10:42:39 AM
I don't think it was much of a problem to sync things back in 1965. All it takes is a varispeed control on one machine, and calibration tones on one track out of 4- and 8-tracked tapes. If the standard tape recorders had no varispeed control, any qualified recording engineer would be capable to install one.

And putting a reduction of vocals from 8-track into the overall mix on 4-track wouldn't have been much of a problem, if ever needed. Exact sync is a necessity when different instrumental tracks must be aligned.

It was not that easy lol. As the saying goes, if it were that easy, everyone would have been doing it. And for two of probably the most famous examples of tape machine sync issues on two of the most famous albums of the 60's and beyond worked on by two of the best recording engineers of all time, there were the issues Geoff Emerick trying to sync the machines to mix the orchestra back into "A Day In The Life" which they could not do 100%, and Roy Halee joining together two 8-track machines to record Simon & Garfunkel on songs like The Boxer.

It wasn't so much getting them in sync from the start - If you were lucky you could mark the tape and get them locked in manually by chance. But regarding mixing those tapes, where you had to stop and start, and going back again later where you had to sync them again...the machines were not consistent, the voltage may not be consistent from Monday to next Wednesday, and if you kept them running some of those motors would start to - as they called it - "drift" which meant slight variances in the speed would cause problems.

So I'd wager that as of 1965-66, considering what was available and how it could be done if it were done at all, syncing up 2 tape machines in any kind of reliable way was not easily done, and if it was there would be no way to keep them consistently "locked" during the process.


Title: Re: The first time The Beach Boys used the 8-track recorder
Post by: WillJC on May 15, 2020, 11:05:36 AM
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Title: Re: The first time The Beach Boys used the 8-track recorder
Post by: DonnyL on May 15, 2020, 11:18:49 AM
So I listened to see which tracks have the "step fades" on the '60s vinyl. Unfortunately, my copy of Pet Sounds seems to have been "helped" in mastering (as was the Steve Hoffman Pet Sounds CD, which I also just listened to), so I'm not totally sure on what I'm hearing on the PS tracks. Summer Days is more obvious.

Here are the tracks (not inclusive) that I would say were mixed at Columbia:

Amusement Parks USA
Salt Lake City
California Girls
Let Him Run Wild
You’re So Good to Me

Wouldn’t It Be Nice
I’m Waiting for the Day
God Only Knows
I Know There’s An Answer
Here Today
I Just Wasn’t Made for These Times


Add Summer Means New Love and I'm Bugged at My Ol' Man to that, but I don't think I Know There's an Answer was a Columbia mix. That one session-wise never left 4-track at Western. You got all the other 8-track songs though, very well spotted!

Yeh unfortunately no way to tell on the tracks that end vs fade!

I’m a bit iffy on some of the PS tracks, not sure I’m hearing the step fades on “I’m Waiting for the Day”, but I think so. I’ll listen to “I Know There’s An Answer” again, but it does sound like step fades. I try to keep an open mind - is it possible that the 4-track tape was taken to Columbia at some point and mixed there (possibly as part Of another season)? That kind of thing


Title: Re: The first time The Beach Boys used the 8-track recorder
Post by: DonnyL on May 15, 2020, 11:23:11 AM
I don't think it was much of a problem to sync things back in 1965. All it takes is a varispeed control on one machine, and calibration tones on one track out of 4- and 8-tracked tapes. If the standard tape recorders had no varispeed control, any qualified recording engineer would be capable to install one.

And putting a reduction of vocals from 8-track into the overall mix on 4-track wouldn't have been much of a problem, if ever needed. Exact sync is a necessity when different instrumental tracks must be aligned.

It was not that easy lol. As the saying goes, if it were that easy, everyone would have been doing it. And for two of probably the most famous examples of tape machine sync issues on two of the most famous albums of the 60's and beyond worked on by two of the best recording engineers of all time, there were the issues Geoff Emerick trying to sync the machines to mix the orchestra back into "A Day In The Life" which they could not do 100%, and Roy Halee joining together two 8-track machines to record Simon & Garfunkel on songs like The Boxer.

It wasn't so much getting them in sync from the start - If you were lucky you could mark the tape and get them locked in manually by chance. But regarding mixing those tapes, where you had to stop and start, and going back again later where you had to sync them again...the machines were not consistent, the voltage may not be consistent from Monday to next Wednesday, and if you kept them running some of those motors would start to - as they called it - "drift" which meant slight variances in the speed would cause problems.

So I'd wager that as of 1965-66, considering what was available and how it could be done if it were done at all, syncing up 2 tape machines in any kind of reliable way was not easily done, and if it was there would be no way to keep them consistently "locked" during the process.

Yeh I think I missed this comment ... Additionally, no they could not bounce around the deck unless they bounced *everytning*. This is because frequency response  in 1960s multi-tracks was poor in sync. I mean, they could but no one would do that as a standard process.


Title: Re: The first time The Beach Boys used the 8-track recorder
Post by: WillJC on May 15, 2020, 11:30:36 AM
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Title: Re: The first time The Beach Boys used the 8-track recorder
Post by: DonnyL on May 15, 2020, 11:44:52 AM

Yeh unfortunately no way to tell on the tracks that end vs fade!

I’m a bit iffy on some of the PS tracks, not sure I’m hearing the step fades on “I’m Waiting for the Day”, but I think so. I’ll listen to “I Know There’s An Answer” again, but it does sound like step fades. I try to keep an open mind - is it possible that the 4-track tape was taken to Columbia at some point and mixed there (possibly as part Of another season)? That kind of thing

Certainly possible as other 4-track songs in the Smile era were taken to Columbia, but in the case of I Know There's an Answer the final overdub session at Western was the very last session for anything on Pet Sounds.

Just listened again -- I'm definitely hearing the step fades on the tail of "I Know There's An Answer". The ones that I'm iffy about are "I Just Wasn't Made For These Times" and "I'm Waiting for the Day" ... though I think they just got some extra help on the mastering fadeout for these pressings.

Keeping in mind the only BB tracks w/ step fades are those I listed above - I think this suggests the step fades were a Columbia board thing (doesn't mean it's an 8-track mix of course). So this is making me wonder is something was done at Columbia in master preparation for Pet Sounds? This is the kind of stuff I'm curious about. Obviously, I think we will only ever have clues and puzzle pieces and theories.

I'm recalling now that ancient thread in which the experts were insisting it was impossible for an 8-Track to be at Western in 1966 ... and yet I was noting the photo of the Scully 8-track behind Brian in a fire hat :D ... definitely not implying you're doing that ha ... just that, I have to throw out conventional wisdom in some cases and just listen, personally.


Title: Re: The first time The Beach Boys used the 8-track recorder
Post by: DonnyL on May 15, 2020, 12:10:51 PM
Here's some youtube vinyl:

"Here Today" (one of the more obvious examples):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8RcYKzRSXE

"I Know There's An Answer":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MI5fSRJbeM

... keeping in mind, I hear a little fader help in both. It *could* be "I Know There's An Answer" has a quick fader drop, then the leader tape splice was cut a little early ... but still sounds a bit like a step fade to me at the very tail (will need to turn up loud).

... contrast with the smoother fade of something like Sloop John B

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hlt0ga9es8I

Also note the initial fade will be normal on the Columbia mixes, but you'll hear 1-3 "steps" at the very tail where dbs drop in larger increments before it fades to silence.

Opinions?


Title: Re: The first time The Beach Boys used the 8-track recorder
Post by: zaval80 on May 15, 2020, 12:41:04 PM
I don't think it was much of a problem to sync things back in 1965. All it takes is a varispeed control on one machine, and calibration tones on one track out of 4- and 8-tracked tapes. If the standard tape recorders had no varispeed control, any qualified recording engineer would be capable to install one.

And putting a reduction of vocals from 8-track into the overall mix on 4-track wouldn't have been much of a problem, if ever needed. Exact sync is a necessity when different instrumental tracks must be aligned.

It was not that easy lol. As the saying goes, if it were that easy, everyone would have been doing it. And for two of probably the most famous examples of tape machine sync issues on two of the most famous albums of the 60's and beyond worked on by two of the best recording engineers of all time, there were the issues Geoff Emerick trying to sync the machines to mix the orchestra back into "A Day In The Life" which they could not do 100%, and Roy Halee joining together two 8-track machines to record Simon & Garfunkel on songs like The Boxer.

It wasn't so much getting them in sync from the start - If you were lucky you could mark the tape and get them locked in manually by chance. But regarding mixing those tapes, where you had to stop and start, and going back again later where you had to sync them again...the machines were not consistent, the voltage may not be consistent from Monday to next Wednesday, and if you kept them running some of those motors would start to - as they called it - "drift" which meant slight variances in the speed would cause problems.

So I'd wager that as of 1965-66, considering what was available and how it could be done if it were done at all, syncing up 2 tape machines in any kind of reliable way was not easily done, and if it was there would be no way to keep them consistently "locked" during the process.
Obviously the exact moment of starting both machines and the voltage control are important. I've found an example from another era - 10 years later - but the description does not involve anything unheard-of in the 60s (aside from 24-track machines, of course):
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/showpost.php?p=14702368&postcount=168&s=cc5d0fc08b960aa6fcdaf1d15b66bb08

I have to look up Caillat's book, though, to check why they had to resort to manual syncing - with 24-tracks, how come they were not able to use some automated sync possibilities which existed already? Looks like they used up all 24 tracks.





Title: Re: The first time The Beach Boys used the 8-track recorder
Post by: Joshilyn Hoisington on May 15, 2020, 12:58:50 PM
I think the point is not whether it was possible, but whether it was worth the time and effort given the desired end result.  I can't imagine Brian sitting around for hours and hours doing sync takes, can you?


Title: Re: The first time The Beach Boys used the 8-track recorder
Post by: guitarfool2002 on May 15, 2020, 12:58:57 PM
Here's some youtube vinyl:

"Here Today" (one of the more obvious examples):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8RcYKzRSXE

"I Know There's An Answer":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MI5fSRJbeM

... keeping in mind, I hear a little fader help in both. It *could* be "I Know There's An Answer" has a quick fader drop, then the leader tape splice was cut a little early ... but still sounds a bit like a step fade to me at the very tail (will need to turn up loud).

... contrast with the smoother fade of something like Sloop John B

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hlt0ga9es8I

Also note the initial fade will be normal on the Columbia mixes, but you'll hear 1-3 "steps" at the very tail where dbs drop in larger increments before it fades to silence.

Opinions?

To further muddy the waters, unless this is bad info from years ago, didn't Brian oversee the final mix at Capitol's studio? There may be a difference in terminology used, but when Brian finally had the Pet Sounds album in the can, it was done at Capitol and the term used was "mastering", yet some descriptions also mentioned fades, and things associated with giving it a final mix.

Were some of these sounds perhaps coming from what Brian was doing that final night at Capitol when it was 100% finished?


Title: Re: The first time The Beach Boys used the 8-track recorder
Post by: WillJC on May 15, 2020, 01:01:08 PM
.


Title: Re: The first time The Beach Boys used the 8-track recorder
Post by: guitarfool2002 on May 15, 2020, 01:03:20 PM

Yeh unfortunately no way to tell on the tracks that end vs fade!

I’m a bit iffy on some of the PS tracks, not sure I’m hearing the step fades on “I’m Waiting for the Day”, but I think so. I’ll listen to “I Know There’s An Answer” again, but it does sound like step fades. I try to keep an open mind - is it possible that the 4-track tape was taken to Columbia at some point and mixed there (possibly as part Of another season)? That kind of thing

Certainly possible as other 4-track songs in the Smile era were taken to Columbia, but in the case of I Know There's an Answer the final overdub session at Western was the very last session for anything on Pet Sounds.

Just listened again -- I'm definitely hearing the step fades on the tail of "I Know There's An Answer". The ones that I'm iffy about are "I Just Wasn't Made For These Times" and "I'm Waiting for the Day" ... though I think they just got some extra help on the mastering fadeout for these pressings.

Keeping in mind the only BB tracks w/ step fades are those I listed above - I think this suggests the step fades were a Columbia board thing (doesn't mean it's an 8-track mix of course). So this is making me wonder is something was done at Columbia in master preparation for Pet Sounds? This is the kind of stuff I'm curious about. Obviously, I think we will only ever have clues and puzzle pieces and theories.

I'm recalling now that ancient thread in which the experts were insisting it was impossible for an 8-Track to be at Western in 1966 ... and yet I was noting the photo of the Scully 8-track behind Brian in a fire hat :D ... definitely not implying you're doing that ha ... just that, I have to throw out conventional wisdom in some cases and just listen, personally.

A situation where both that film and a still photo as well existed under our noses for years without being noticed. When I spotted that in the background, it was one of those "holy sh*t" moments. And yes indeed, some "experts" couldn't get beyond what they were led to believe for years despite hard evidence. That film sort of up-ended conventional wisdom, along with the footage of Brian working the board at Columbia without having his hand slapped away.

I'd still like to find out who the dude in the gray windbreaker was in the Western control room... ;D


Title: Re: The first time The Beach Boys used the 8-track recorder
Post by: zaval80 on May 15, 2020, 01:31:07 PM
I think the point is not whether it was possible, but whether it was worth the time and effort given the desired end result.  I can't imagine Brian sitting around for hours and hours doing sync takes, can you?
Why would he? that would be a job for an engineer.

It's not that this scenario is in support of final mixing to 4-track at Western when an 8-track was available at Columbia.


Title: Re: The first time The Beach Boys used the 8-track recorder
Post by: guitarfool2002 on May 15, 2020, 01:31:48 PM
I hear it! Hmm, that's a puzzling one. Unless there was a session we don't know about between the IKTAA overdubs on April 17 and the album's final mastering on April 19 it pretty much had to be mixed at Western (or maybe April 17 session had the wrong location written down?), but I do definitely hear the step fade effect you're talking about and it sounds very similar to Here Today.

On the topic of that footage of Brian with an 8-track machine at Western (I was waiting for an excuse!), there's no way to know for sure but at this point I'm about 86% positive what we're looking at is the November 30 vocal session for My Only Sunshine. It's a session at Western with 5 Beach Boys present (everyone but Bruce is seen in the footage, and Dennis is holding the camera), very soon after the European tour (Carl's reading a German music mag), and everyone's wearing the fire hats that Brian would've had out only two days prior if this is the correct date. Van Dyke is also present in some unused stills which means it couldn't be one of those late-stage dates in June. Nov 30 is really the only session anywhere in the vicinity that fits the criteria for what's seen in the footage, and Brian bringing out his 8-track machine for a playback makes a hell of a lot of sense if they'd just returned from tour - they could be reviewing vocals from October, catching up on something Brian did while they were away (I'm in Great Shape was 8-track), or Brian could even be mixing down the Sunshine overdubs that'd hypothetically just been recorded (not sure what they were recorded on - waiting for someone to correct me and say it's 4-track). Maybe there was also a playback for Fire and he dished out the hats to get them all in the mood! Ton of possibilities for what they were doing, but it seems to be the only known date that fits and all things considered it fits very well.

Here's the original thread where that film info first came out - others followed but this was the original. http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,10570.0.html (http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,10570.0.html)

Just a few points to add:

Van Dyke wearing the firehat was not an unused still - He is in the same film, I just took a screenshot of him from another, slightly longer source for the same film. The other still photo of Brian, Chuck, and Van Dyke in front of the same 8-track machine was one I had from yet another source in my collection, and that was not from the same film or date. So the screenshots and the still photo were from at least 3 sources I used to capture them. I need to re-up them since Photobucket got all messed up a few years ago.

In the original thread the exact date of that German magazine was provided, Sept. 24 1966, which further lines up with the late fall timeline in several ways - more details at the original thread.

There's more detail that can be found on this board for those interested.


Title: Re: The first time The Beach Boys used the 8-track recorder
Post by: Joshilyn Hoisington on May 15, 2020, 01:40:29 PM
I think the point is not whether it was possible, but whether it was worth the time and effort given the desired end result.  I can't imagine Brian sitting around for hours and hours doing sync takes, can you?
Why would he? that would be a job for an engineer.

It's not that this scenario is in support of final mixing to 4-track at Western when an 8-track was available at Columbia.

It's the sitting around, not the synching, that I think Brian would be intolerant of.


Title: Re: The first time The Beach Boys used the 8-track recorder
Post by: WillJC on May 15, 2020, 01:44:37 PM
.


Title: Re: The first time The Beach Boys used the 8-track recorder
Post by: guitarfool2002 on May 15, 2020, 02:50:24 PM
I hear it! Hmm, that's a puzzling one. Unless there was a session we don't know about between the IKTAA overdubs on April 17 and the album's final mastering on April 19 it pretty much had to be mixed at Western (or maybe April 17 session had the wrong location written down?), but I do definitely hear the step fade effect you're talking about and it sounds very similar to Here Today.

On the topic of that footage of Brian with an 8-track machine at Western (I was waiting for an excuse!), there's no way to know for sure but at this point I'm about 86% positive what we're looking at is the November 30 vocal session for My Only Sunshine. It's a session at Western with 5 Beach Boys present (everyone but Bruce is seen in the footage, and Dennis is holding the camera), very soon after the European tour (Carl's reading a German music mag), and everyone's wearing the fire hats that Brian would've had out only two days prior if this is the correct date. Van Dyke is also present in some unused stills which means it couldn't be one of those late-stage dates in June. Nov 30 is really the only session anywhere in the vicinity that fits the criteria for what's seen in the footage, and Brian bringing out his 8-track machine for a playback makes a hell of a lot of sense if they'd just returned from tour - they could be reviewing vocals from October, catching up on something Brian did while they were away (I'm in Great Shape was 8-track), or Brian could even be mixing down the Sunshine overdubs that'd hypothetically just been recorded (not sure what they were recorded on - waiting for someone to correct me and say it's 4-track). Maybe there was also a playback for Fire and he dished out the hats to get them all in the mood! Ton of possibilities for what they were doing, but it seems to be the only known date that fits and all things considered it fits very well.

Here's the original thread where that film info first came out - others followed but this was the original. http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,10570.0.html (http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,10570.0.html)

Just a few points to add:

Van Dyke wearing the firehat was not an unused still - He is in the same film, I just took a screenshot of him from another, slightly longer source for the same film. The other still photo of Brian, Chuck, and Van Dyke in front of the same 8-track machine was one I had from yet another source in my collection, and that was not from the same film or date. So the screenshots and the still photo were from at least 3 sources I used to capture them. I need to re-up them since Photobucket got all messed up a few years ago.

In the original thread the exact date of that German magazine was provided, Sept. 24 1966, which further lines up with the late fall timeline in several ways - more details at the original thread.

There's more detail that can be found on this board for those interested.

Ah, thanks for clearing that up! Would that other photo be the one where Van's giving Brian a shoulder rub? Couple of possibilities for that are Wind Chimes on October 5 and H&V Great Shape on October 27, both of which are Western sessions with Chuck that Van Dyke was present for and are both confirmed to have used Brian's 8-track machine.

So for uses of that thing we've got October 5, October 27, mystery American Band footage session (more likely than not November 30), and I'd bet Brian's solo session for Wonderful vocals on October 6 too. That's the date ascribed to the mono mix and the parts present would necessitate 6 tracks of a tape (instrumental, 2x Brian lead, 3 individual backing vocal overdubs). I'm not sure what the official equipment situation was by June, but by my count the two versions of You're With Me Tonight done over there would've been 8-track too.

Yes, the actual still photo showing the 8-track at Western is the one where Van Dyke is standing over Brian seated at the board next to Chuck. For all the years I had that photo I never thought about the fact it was showing an 8-track at Western! Any other shots going around showing the fire hats being worn and that 8-track in use at Western - if they were the ones I clipped and posted and a lot of them apparently are - those are from two versions of that same silent film.


Title: Re: The first time The Beach Boys used the 8-track recorder
Post by: DonnyL on May 15, 2020, 03:25:12 PM
I think the point is not whether it was possible, but whether it was worth the time and effort given the desired end result.  I can't imagine Brian sitting around for hours and hours doing sync takes, can you?
Why would he? that would be a job for an engineer.

It's not that this scenario is in support of final mixing to 4-track at Western when an 8-track was available at Columbia.

We should consider  the mindset of engineers and studio personnel at the time: these are the same guys who wrapped adhesive tape around the deck’s capstan to modify the speed and said, “what are we gonna do with all these tracks?” When 8-track came in!

But even from a technical standpoint - we’re talking about studios with mono, stereo, and a 3-track or 4-track. Varispeed were not standard on any of the decks of the era, and I’ve seen very few modded for it. Syncing two machines together was unheard of because it doesn’t make practical sense to go through the trouble for two 3 or 4 tracks when you have to use one of the tracks for the sync signal. You’d just plan to get an 8 track if there was a demand, or use the resources to put together an 8-track from existing machines like Columbia did (using an Ampex 300 deck and 4 pairs of PR10/354 stereo electronics).


Title: Re: The first time The Beach Boys used the 8-track recorder
Post by: zaval80 on May 15, 2020, 03:42:42 PM
But even from a technical standpoint - we’re talking about studios with mono, stereo, and a 3-track or 4-track. Varispeed were not standard on any of the decks of the era, and I’ve seen very few modded for it. Syncing two machines together was unheard of because it doesn’t make practical sense to go through the trouble for two 3 or 4 tracks when you have to use one of the tracks for the sync signal. You’d just plan to get an 8 track if there was a demand, or use the resources to put together an 8-track from existing machines like Columbia did (using an Ampex 300 deck and 4 pairs of PR10/354 stereo electronics).

I never believed for a second that, given a 8-track was available at Columbia, a final mix would have been done with a 4-track at Western. I just pointed out that a scenario of syncing a reduction of vocals from a 8-track studio (obviously to nothing higher than a 4-track) and a 4-track with the backing track was not impossible, but obviously the "master" 4-track would require a varispeed control, so that the engineer would be able to control the sync by comparing reference tones from some kind of a metronome produced by both machines. The original idea, mixing to a 4-track at Western from an 8-track machine, wasn't something I offered.


Title: Re: The first time The Beach Boys used the 8-track recorder
Post by: DonnyL on May 15, 2020, 06:44:36 PM
Here's some youtube vinyl:

"Here Today" (one of the more obvious examples):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8RcYKzRSXE

"I Know There's An Answer":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MI5fSRJbeM

... keeping in mind, I hear a little fader help in both. It *could* be "I Know There's An Answer" has a quick fader drop, then the leader tape splice was cut a little early ... but still sounds a bit like a step fade to me at the very tail (will need to turn up loud).

... contrast with the smoother fade of something like Sloop John B

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hlt0ga9es8I

Also note the initial fade will be normal on the Columbia mixes, but you'll hear 1-3 "steps" at the very tail where dbs drop in larger increments before it fades to silence.

Opinions?

To further muddy the waters, unless this is bad info from years ago, didn't Brian oversee the final mix at Capitol's studio? There may be a difference in terminology used, but when Brian finally had the Pet Sounds album in the can, it was done at Capitol and the term used was "mastering", yet some descriptions also mentioned fades, and things associated with giving it a final mix.

Were some of these sounds perhaps coming from what Brian was doing that final night at Capitol when it was 100% finished?

Yeh I think those stories of Brian making the final mix were what got to me wonder initially. I kind of assume at this point that “final dubdown” was something like just final preparation and sequencing of the tape reels.


Title: Re: The first time The Beach Boys used the 8-track recorder
Post by: DonnyL on May 15, 2020, 06:48:38 PM
But even from a technical standpoint - we’re talking about studios with mono, stereo, and a 3-track or 4-track. Varispeed were not standard on any of the decks of the era, and I’ve seen very few modded for it. Syncing two machines together was unheard of because it doesn’t make practical sense to go through the trouble for two 3 or 4 tracks when you have to use one of the tracks for the sync signal. You’d just plan to get an 8 track if there was a demand, or use the resources to put together an 8-track from existing machines like Columbia did (using an Ampex 300 deck and 4 pairs of PR10/354 stereo electronics).

I never believed for a second that, given a 8-track was available at Columbia, a final mix would have been done with a 4-track at Western. I just pointed out that a scenario of syncing a reduction of vocals from a 8-track studio (obviously to nothing higher than a 4-track) and a 4-track with the backing track was not impossible, but obviously the "master" 4-track would require a varispeed control, so that the engineer would be able to control the sync by comparing reference tones from some kind of a metronome produced by both machines. The original idea, mixing to a 4-track at Western from an 8-track machine, wasn't something I offered.

Understood


Title: Re: The first time The Beach Boys used the 8-track recorder
Post by: guitarfool2002 on May 16, 2020, 09:41:32 AM
Here's some youtube vinyl:

"Here Today" (one of the more obvious examples):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8RcYKzRSXE

"I Know There's An Answer":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MI5fSRJbeM

... keeping in mind, I hear a little fader help in both. It *could* be "I Know There's An Answer" has a quick fader drop, then the leader tape splice was cut a little early ... but still sounds a bit like a step fade to me at the very tail (will need to turn up loud).

... contrast with the smoother fade of something like Sloop John B

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hlt0ga9es8I

Also note the initial fade will be normal on the Columbia mixes, but you'll hear 1-3 "steps" at the very tail where dbs drop in larger increments before it fades to silence.

Opinions?

To further muddy the waters, unless this is bad info from years ago, didn't Brian oversee the final mix at Capitol's studio? There may be a difference in terminology used, but when Brian finally had the Pet Sounds album in the can, it was done at Capitol and the term used was "mastering", yet some descriptions also mentioned fades, and things associated with giving it a final mix.

Were some of these sounds perhaps coming from what Brian was doing that final night at Capitol when it was 100% finished?

Yeh I think those stories of Brian making the final mix were what got to me wonder initially. I kind of assume at this point that “final dubdown” was something like just final preparation and sequencing of the tape reels.

The missing piece in most if not all of this is - unless I just haven't seen it logged - there is no record of who did what we'd call the "final mix" on any of these tracks that went between Western and Columbia. The only indication we had for years of such a thing being done was what we're talking about, that description of Brian doing the final work and finishing Pet Sounds at Capitol. And with the discrepancies in terminology when some use the term "mastering" versus mixing, I now kind of lean toward Brian being there at Capitol for the Pet Sounds mastering after he had all the reels of the individual tracks that had received final mixes.

But who actually mixed down all of the individual tracks going back to when Brian first started to cut vocals at Columbia? All we have is an engineering credit, not who mixed or where it was mixed.


Not for nothing, but did you notice all the instrumental tracks on those 8-track tape boxes we have seen from Columbia seemed to have been sent to track 4?


Title: Re: The first time The Beach Boys used the 8-track recorder
Post by: zaval80 on May 16, 2020, 10:48:58 AM
But who actually mixed down all of the individual tracks going back to when Brian first started to cut vocals at Columbia? All we have is an engineering credit, not who mixed or where it was mixed.

It was easier back then, people did sessions and mixing in short time, procrastination would mean loss of money. There were producers who took hands-on approach and worked on their mixes, while everybody else just issued instructions to engineers. And if Columbia was that strictly union-governed, then obviously it fell to the engineer.


Title: Re: The first time The Beach Boys used the 8-track recorder
Post by: Joshilyn Hoisington on May 16, 2020, 11:31:23 AM
But who actually mixed down all of the individual tracks going back to when Brian first started to cut vocals at Columbia? All we have is an engineering credit, not who mixed or where it was mixed.

It was easier back then, people did sessions and mixing in short time, procrastination would mean loss of money. There were producers who took hands-on approach and worked on their mixes, while everybody else just issued instructions to engineers. And if Columbia was that strictly union-governed, then obviously it fell to the engineer.

Well sure, but which engineer? 

We have the names of the two primary engineers Brian worked with at CBS.  And of course the usual suspects at United Western.  Can we assume that THE final mixes were just done immediately after the final vocals were added, same session and everything?  Did Brian leave CBS with a mono reel containing the mixes we hear on the final master?

And then, yeah, the issue of assembling the reel and cutting the master - was that at Capitol and who did that?  Presumably Capitol and CBS were on par as far as mastering suites went.  But did Capitol have in-house standards. 

And I'd also love some corroboration that Steve Douglas made Brian go back and remix everything after hearing the first "final product" because it was such an horrible, sloppy mix...


Title: Re: The first time The Beach Boys used the 8-track recorder
Post by: WillJC on May 16, 2020, 11:49:14 AM
.


Title: Re: The first time The Beach Boys used the 8-track recorder
Post by: zaval80 on May 16, 2020, 12:15:04 PM
Well sure, but which engineer? 

We have the names of the two primary engineers Brian worked with at CBS.  And of course the usual suspects at United Western.  Can we assume that THE final mixes were just done immediately after the final vocals were added, same session and everything?  Did Brian leave CBS with a mono reel containing the mixes we hear on the final master?

And then, yeah, the issue of assembling the reel and cutting the master - was that at Capitol and who did that?  Presumably Capitol and CBS were on par as far as mastering suites went.  But did Capitol have in-house standards. 

And I'd also love some corroboration that Steve Douglas made Brian go back and remix everything after hearing the first "final product" because it was such an horrible, sloppy mix...

The chief engineer, responsible for the particular session to the task given by the studio manager. There were assistant engineers, tape operators, maintenance engineers. Things like assembling the reel were something delegated to assistant engineers. Cutting the master with razor and a block - that was the province of a (very hands-on) producer or the engineer, not the job for lesser mortals.

After the session, an engineer did a reference mix (acetate or tape) for the client to take home. The final master obviously demanded more care, but the basics were the same: a producer either worked the board, or gave the instruction to an engineer until satisfied.

Obviously, preparation of finished master tape for reproduction on vinyl ("mastering") was an entirely separate job done by yet another specialist, mastering/cutting engineer. As the task of producer would be to handle the master tape to the recording company as per the contract, the later job most probably was not producer's responsibility.


Title: Re: The first time The Beach Boys used the 8-track recorder
Post by: Joshilyn Hoisington on May 16, 2020, 12:25:48 PM
I could not possibly be more familiar with the process, yes.  I want names.  Valentin, Jerry Hochman, Don...did we ever learn his last name?  Which CBS engineer, which United Western Englineer, which Capitol engineer.  These were real people.  Specificity is the watchword here.


Title: Re: The first time The Beach Boys used the 8-track recorder
Post by: zaval80 on May 16, 2020, 12:36:32 PM
Without a log of any kind, that would be a guesswork. Even the Beatles sessions which are so much better researched had quite a number of engineers from session to session. As we don't hear of people bragging "I engineered this and that hit for the Boys" too often, this may mean there was a number of such engineers. (And of course, the studios where Brian recorded were high-profile.)


Title: Re: The first time The Beach Boys used the 8-track recorder
Post by: Joshilyn Hoisington on May 16, 2020, 12:45:07 PM
There is documentation; what I am proposing here and I think the others who have contributed to conversations like these over the decades might agree, is that we can revisit our past assumptions about, not only Brian's, but the entire music-studio community's working methods.  So much of the mythos of Pet Sounds has been sort of set in stone, or maybe it'd be better to say drowned in aspic.  The same vague bromides get recycled over and over and pass into history without getting looked at seriously again.  It is actually very important on the broader scale to go back and mine the same documentation for potentially new fruit, because this period in music recording is so under-considered in general; the three-track and four-track era.  It really was a different country than the 8-track and 16-track era.  (I would group the 3- and 4- track eras together as one epoch -- incredibly brief though it was -- and the 8- and 16- track eras as a seperate epoch.)  It's very specific work and in the case of tying it together with the Beach Boys requires revisiting past narratives with an open mind.


Title: Re: The first time The Beach Boys used the 8-track recorder
Post by: WillJC on May 16, 2020, 01:09:37 PM
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Title: Re: The first time The Beach Boys used the 8-track recorder
Post by: Joshilyn Hoisington on May 16, 2020, 01:26:54 PM
What's really interesting as I look at those names and their associated tracks for the billionth time, is to consider anew just how many hands and how many electronics touched these records.  One generation of tape was mixed by, say H Bowen through Bill Putnam circuits, the next gen was mixed by Jerry Hochman through CBS circuits, etc.  And then presumably everything went through another step at mastering by a different engineer.  All of these people would be credited on the album today--not then. 

Also, my mind pinged with memory about a hoffman forum thread about where PS was mastered.  I looked it up:

https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/does-anyone-know-where-brian-wilson-mastered-pet-sounds-in-1966-info-is-here.37344/ (https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/does-anyone-know-where-brian-wilson-mastered-pet-sounds-in-1966-info-is-here.37344/)

Funny to see little 23 year old me back there in the early 2000s trying to get to the bottom of stuff....  Ah, we are who we are.


Title: Re: The first time The Beach Boys used the 8-track recorder
Post by: c-man on May 17, 2020, 07:50:37 AM
Well, according to c-man's notes, the engineers present for each Pet Sounds song's final session who would've likely handled the mixes with Brian were:

Sloop John B - Chuck Britz & Winston Wong
You Still Believe in Me - unknown
Pet Sounds - Chuck Britz
Let's Go Away for Awhile - Chuck Britz
Wouldn't It Be Nice - Ralph Valentin & mysterious Don T.
Caroline No - Chuck Britz
I Know There's an Answer - possibly Bowen David
Don't Talk - Bowen David
I Just Wasn't Made for These Times - Ralph Valentin
That's Not Me - unknown
I'm Waiting for the Day - Ralph Valentin & Don T.
God Only Knows - Ralph Valentin
Here Today - possibly Jerry Hockman

A couple of early Wouldn't It Be Nice mono mixes from Feb 16 and March 3 would've been Chuck at Western. Lots of early mixes going around but I think that's the only song with totally different vocal attempts at different studios.

Yeah, and don't forget that Jim Lockert and Phil Kaye reportedly engineered some Pet Sounds sessions, according to Byron Preiss. Whether or not that means mixing or simply vocal overdub sessions, we don't know.