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Smiley Smile Stuff => General On Topic Discussions => Topic started by: c-man on January 03, 2020, 10:56:07 PM



Title: Bassist Carol Kaye Slams "Ms. Maisel" Homage
Post by: c-man on January 03, 2020, 10:56:07 PM
https://www.msn.com/en-us/tv/news/wrecking-crew-bassist-carol-kaye-slams-mrs-maisel-homage-i-am-not-a-cartoon/ar-BBYAn2D?ocid=spartandhp


Title: Re: Bassist Carol Kaye Slams \
Post by: juggler on January 03, 2020, 11:51:27 PM
Ha, shocking, shocking.   
CK is an incredible musician, and I love her Pet Sounds/Smile era work, but anyone making a movie or TV show (biographical or fictionalized) is crazy to think that CK going to be flattered to be depicted in their movie or TV show.  She's pretty much on record as hating all portrayals and depictions of her.   Fans here will remember how much she hated her portrayal in the "Love and Mercy" biopic.  IIRC, in that one, she took extreme offense at how her character dressed as well as a scene in which she was portrayed as a slightly confused by Brian's compositional techniques.  It was kinda weird, as her wardrobe in the movie closely resembled the actual clothes she can be seen wearing in mid-60s studio photos. To the rest of the world, it may have looked like a harmless scene intended to depict how innovative Brian was, but that's now how CK took it.


Title: Re: Bassist Carol Kaye Slams
Post by: UEF on January 04, 2020, 12:00:58 AM
I thought she looked spot on in the film.


Title: Re: Bassist Carol Kaye Slams \
Post by: Rocker on January 04, 2020, 01:30:12 AM
I never hear of Hal Blaine being "her long-time enemy". What is that about?


Title: Re: Bassist Carol Kaye Slams \
Post by: BeachBoysCovers on January 04, 2020, 02:11:24 AM
(https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/019/304/old.jpg)


Title: Re: Bassist Carol Kaye Slams \
Post by: Robbie Mac on January 04, 2020, 07:25:41 AM
https://www.msn.com/en-us/tv/news/wrecking-crew-bassist-carol-kaye-slams-mrs-maisel-homage-i-am-not-a-cartoon/ar-BBYAn2D?ocid=spartandhp

In other words, sun is hot and water is wet.


Title: Re: Bassist Carol Kaye Slams \
Post by: c-man on January 04, 2020, 07:31:01 AM
I never hear of Hal Blaine being "her long-time enemy". What is that about?

In recent years, she'd become critical of Hal's take on their collective history, especially his use of the term "Wrecking Crew" in his autobiography. Much to Hal's surprise, I might add - up to that point, he'd had nothing but good things to say about her, even kiddingly writing that he'd often thought he should have married her, they were so good together musically.l


Title: Re: Bassist Carol Kaye Slams \
Post by: CenturyDeprived on January 04, 2020, 07:57:46 AM
I never hear of Hal Blaine being "her long-time enemy". What is that about?

In recent years, she'd become critical of Hal's take on their collective history, especially his use of the term "Wrecking Crew" in his autobiography. Much to Hal's surprise, I might add - up to that point, he'd had nothing but good things to say about her, even kiddingly writing that he'd often thought he should have married her, they were so good together musically.l

Wow, that is really sad. She doesn't sound like a well person. And I say that without meaning any disrespect. What an amazing legacy though.


Title: Re: Bassist Carol Kaye Slams \
Post by: debonbon on January 04, 2020, 04:25:31 PM
She’s always been a crank. I remember her blowing up on the blue board more than a few times.


Title: Re: Bassist Carol Kaye Slams \
Post by: Pretty Funky on January 04, 2020, 07:52:48 PM
Life’s too short, especially at 84, to sweat the small stuff. Some people have never learnt it’s fine to take life less seriously and laugh at yourself occasionally. You gain a lot more respect that way.


Title: Re: Bassist Carol Kaye Slams \
Post by: Rocker on January 05, 2020, 01:52:29 AM
I never hear of Hal Blaine being "her long-time enemy". What is that about?

In recent years, she'd become critical of Hal's take on their collective history, especially his use of the term "Wrecking Crew" in his autobiography. Much to Hal's surprise, I might add - up to that point, he'd had nothing but good things to say about her, even kiddingly writing that he'd often thought he should have married her, they were so good together musically.l


Hm, ok. Kinda strange imo, but she will have her reasons.


Title: Re: Bassist Carol Kaye Slams \
Post by: Amy B. on January 05, 2020, 03:37:26 PM
Not surprising, I guess, given that she always seems to take issue with any depictions of her.

I watched Mrs. Maisel and immediately recognized that Kaye was the inspiration for that character. I guess they got a few things wrong, like didn't Kaye play regular guitar on the road and only switch to bass when she became a studio musician? But this is not Carol Kaye-- It's "Carol Keen." So I suppose they can do whatever they want.

I can see where some things would annoy Kaye. There's a conversation between Keen and the main character where she gives Midge (the main character) advice on how to handle one night stands on the road.  And I did get that she would be annoyed about the Love and Mercy scene where she's confused about Brian's arrangement. I understand that the point was to show that he was ahead of his time, but why show it by making a studio pro look like they don't understand Brian's music, and especially, why have the only woman be the one who is confused?

But overall, I think Kaye takes everything way too seriously. The upshot of having the "Carol Keen" character is that some people are being inspired to research her (or at least Google whether there were actually female musicians touring with famous singers in 1960. Midge Maisel is a woman in a field (comedy) dominated by men in 1960, and so is "Carol Keen." Why not draw attention to the challenges women faced when they stuck their necks out? I wish Carol Kaye would at least appreciate that. Oh well. I'm sure she didn't accomplish all that she did without having a strong personality.


Title: Re: Bassist Carol Kaye Slams \
Post by: c-man on January 05, 2020, 04:53:21 PM
<<I understand that the point was to show that he was ahead of his time, but why show it by making a studio pro look like they don't understand Brian's music,>>

Well, this did apparently happen once with Tommy Tedesco, where he didn't understand how a certain progression of Brian's would work...until he heard it with the vocals, then it made sense to him.

<<and especially, why have the only woman be the one who is confused?>>

Yeah, that's a very good point, especially since it was a man who questioned it at the actual session!  :)


Title: Re: Bassist Carol Kaye Slams \
Post by: Pretty Funky on January 05, 2020, 09:46:52 PM
At the risk of being slammed, I wonder if anyone involved in the making of the movie even considered that scene would upset Carol or in fact other woman. I go to the movies for the story, not looking for offence.
Until pointed out above, I hadn’t even thought about that scene as possibly upsetting any group. But being a male, what would I know.... ::)


Title: Re: Bassist Carol Kaye Slams \
Post by: guitarfool2002 on January 05, 2020, 11:48:22 PM
Not surprising, I guess, given that she always seems to take issue with any depictions of her.

I watched Mrs. Maisel and immediately recognized that Kaye was the inspiration for that character. I guess they got a few things wrong, like didn't Kaye play regular guitar on the road and only switch to bass when she became a studio musician? But this is not Carol Kaye-- It's "Carol Keen." So I suppose they can do whatever they want.

I can see where some things would annoy Kaye. There's a conversation between Keen and the main character where she gives Midge (the main character) advice on how to handle one night stands on the road.  And I did get that she would be annoyed about the Love and Mercy scene where she's confused about Brian's arrangement. I understand that the point was to show that he was ahead of his time, but why show it by making a studio pro look like they don't understand Brian's music, and especially, why have the only woman be the one who is confused?

But overall, I think Kaye takes everything way too seriously. The upshot of having the "Carol Keen" character is that some people are being inspired to research her (or at least Google whether there were actually female musicians touring with famous singers in 1960. Midge Maisel is a woman in a field (comedy) dominated by men in 1960, and so is "Carol Keen." Why not draw attention to the challenges women faced when they stuck their necks out? I wish Carol Kaye would at least appreciate that. Oh well. I'm sure she didn't accomplish all that she did without having a strong personality.

Just a few thoughts.

First, Carole Kaye accomplished all that she did in the music business because she was a phenomenal player with a terrific sense of time and feel as well as tone, and a guitarist/bassist who could read both chord charts and actual notated parts with ease and skill. No one got into that business who wasn't at the top of their game, and specifically no one who couldn't deliver the goods was as involved in recording soundtracks and scores for film and TV like Carole Kaye. A strong personality helps, sure, but ultimately she did what she did because she was among the best in that field, and IMO one of the best of all time.

That's why I hate to see her torn down personally as some have done in the past, including members currently banned from this forum who seemed to never miss a chance to take a personal shot at her. That's not cool. Argue all day about some of the issues with her in the past, and yes some of it is both sad and confusing especially for fans of her work, but her discography and body of work as a musician should also be appreciated (and respected) for what it is and what she did in the music and film business.

I don't know if the specific scene in L&M was showing confusion as much as the reaction of a trained musician when seeing a part written in one key while the chords seem to be in another, prior to running down the tune and hearing what was scored out. It's not uncommon now or then for a musician to ask questions or even doubt what they were given to play. And the scene in L&M was not the Tommy Tedesco quote referenced specifically as is being discussed in another thread, but rather a scene with the Carole character and Brian on Wouldn't It Be Nice. I think the Tommy quote may have been misused in referencing that film scene.


Title: Re: Bassist Carol Kaye Slams \
Post by: Amy B. on January 06, 2020, 06:05:08 AM
Not surprising, I guess, given that she always seems to take issue with any depictions of her.

I watched Mrs. Maisel and immediately recognized that Kaye was the inspiration for that character. I guess they got a few things wrong, like didn't Kaye play regular guitar on the road and only switch to bass when she became a studio musician? But this is not Carol Kaye-- It's "Carol Keen." So I suppose they can do whatever they want.

I can see where some things would annoy Kaye. There's a conversation between Keen and the main character where she gives Midge (the main character) advice on how to handle one night stands on the road.  And I did get that she would be annoyed about the Love and Mercy scene where she's confused about Brian's arrangement. I understand that the point was to show that he was ahead of his time, but why show it by making a studio pro look like they don't understand Brian's music, and especially, why have the only woman be the one who is confused?

But overall, I think Kaye takes everything way too seriously. The upshot of having the "Carol Keen" character is that some people are being inspired to research her (or at least Google whether there were actually female musicians touring with famous singers in 1960. Midge Maisel is a woman in a field (comedy) dominated by men in 1960, and so is "Carol Keen." Why not draw attention to the challenges women faced when they stuck their necks out? I wish Carol Kaye would at least appreciate that. Oh well. I'm sure she didn't accomplish all that she did without having a strong personality.

Just a few thoughts.

First, Carole Kaye accomplished all that she did in the music business because she was a phenomenal player with a terrific sense of time and feel as well as tone, and a guitarist/bassist who could read both chord charts and actual notated parts with ease and skill. No one got into that business who wasn't at the top of their game, and specifically no one who couldn't deliver the goods was as involved in recording soundtracks and scores for film and TV like Carole Kaye. A strong personality helps, sure, but ultimately she did what she did because she was among the best in that field, and IMO one of the best of all time.

That's why I hate to see her torn down personally as some have done in the past, including members currently banned from this forum who seemed to never miss a chance to take a personal shot at her. That's not cool. Argue all day about some of the issues with her in the past, and yes some of it is both sad and confusing especially for fans of her work, but her discography and body of work as a musician should also be appreciated (and respected) for what it is and what she did in the music and film business.

I don't know if the specific scene in L&M was showing confusion as much as the reaction of a trained musician when seeing a part written in one key while the chords seem to be in another, prior to running down the tune and hearing what was scored out. It's not uncommon now or then for a musician to ask questions or even doubt what they were given to play. And the scene in L&M was not the Tommy Tedesco quote referenced specifically as is being discussed in another thread, but rather a scene with the Carole character and Brian on Wouldn't It Be Nice. I think the Tommy quote may have been misused in referencing that film scene.

Just to clarify, I wasn't at all saying Carole Kaye wasn't a fantastic and skilled player. But I think to get to a high level at just about anything, you need both talent AND a strong personality, or "grit," as they say in Freakonomics. In no way would I want to diminish Carole Kaye's skills as a musician. I'm sure ALL of those session players had both talent and grit, as did Brian. It's quite possible that as a woman, Carole had to fight a bit harder, giving her the thick skin to stand up and speak out against what she perceives as an unfair depiction. That's all I was saying.

I watched Mrs. Maisel and I don't see where she's being torn down. Quite the opposite, in fact. But I wasn't there and don't know the details of Kaye's life. Maybe they got a lot wrong.

I remember the L&M scene showing confusion, but I haven't seen the movie since it was released. I'd have to watch again. But I do remember sitting in the theater and wondering what the real Carol Kaye would think of this depiction of her.


Title: Re: Bassist Carol Kaye Slams \
Post by: RONDEMON on January 06, 2020, 06:45:55 AM
Despite all her successes and acclaim, CK seems like a very angry and frustrated person with a huge chip on her shoulder. She seems very resentful and bitter and doesn’t seem to care about inspiring others - especially not younger women.

I feel bad for her because it’s clear she’s facing some emotional turmoil and has been holding on to a lot of anger for a very long time. I just hope she’s enjoying her life and is happy considering her age and health. Her talent has made so many people happy, yet it seems she ignores that and focuses only on the negatives.


Title: Re: Bassist Carol Kaye Slams
Post by: 37!ws on January 06, 2020, 07:43:28 AM
Defend her all you want, but we could post literally decades of her attacks on people (including me -- why? because I posted on one of the newsgroups about an instrument cable I use that I tried after a recommendation on her web site -- I would *only have heard of it* because of her web site -- and she proceeded to tear me a new one because she would NEVER recommend said cable because it was crap), literally having a lawyer send threatening letters to people (and said lawyer actually apologized later), trashing Melinda ("wifey-poo"), and name-calling. It doesn't make her less talented, but it sure doesnt' make her look like a sweetheart.


Title: Re: Bassist Carol Kaye Slams
Post by: guitarfool2002 on January 06, 2020, 09:00:28 AM
Defend her all you want, but we could post literally decades of her attacks on people (including me -- why? because I posted on one of the newsgroups about an instrument cable I use that I tried after a recommendation on her web site -- I would *only have heard of it* because of her web site -- and she proceeded to tear me a new one because she would NEVER recommend said cable because it was crap), literally having a lawyer send threatening letters to people (and said lawyer actually apologized later), trashing Melinda ("wifey-poo"), and name-calling. It doesn't make her less talented, but it sure doesnt' make her look like a sweetheart.

Sounds like some other people we know.  :lol

No doubt, the whole situation is unfortunate in many ways, but even moreso in that there truly is a great legacy of musicianship and accomplishments at play in this case which would be a shame to ignore or forget due to the other issues. The resume we're looking at is one of the best among all those musicians when you factor in the film and TV work alongside the sessions we tend to focus on.


Title: Re: Bassist Carol Kaye Slams \
Post by: Pretty Funky on January 06, 2020, 09:18:59 AM
The aforementioned scene. Nothing but respect for these musicians by Brian as has often been mentioned by them in interviews.

https://youtu.be/11SYaq4I1ok


Lyle Ritz confirms it was him querying the two different keys (but not what song).Still not worth getting upset about TBH.

https://youtu.be/93lduXoNuCE


Title: Re: Bassist Carol Kaye Slams \
Post by: Wirestone on January 06, 2020, 09:21:53 AM
There's also the whole issue of her claiming credit for tracks featuring the astonishing Motown playing of James Jamerson -- a groundbreaking African-American musician who has passed away and not able to defend himself.

Carol, whatever her musical talents, has more than earned whatever enmity comes her way.


Title: Re: Bassist Carol Kaye Slams \
Post by: guitarfool2002 on January 06, 2020, 09:37:14 AM
The aforementioned scene. Nothing but respect for these musicians by Brian as has often been mentioned by them in interviews.

https://youtu.be/11SYaq4I1ok

Yes, and the whole point of clarification is that the scene above was for WIBN, a session for which Tommy Tedesco did not play, and the scenario depicted in the scene not only has musical merit as it is exactly the A major/D major juxtaposition as we hashed out back in 2013 (and earlier) for that song as outlined in the other current thread.

I *never* saw that scene as offensive, even though Carol did, because as anyone who has ever done a recording session and has been given a part to play on sight will attest, musicians do question parts if something sounds "off", and I've seen it personally as well as have been the writer who has had to correct something on the spot because a musician pointed out a mistake or something that wasn't quite right, just as the scene above shows - even though in the case of WIBN it was what Brian wanted to hear.

Tommy Tedesco's comment or comments had nothing to do with that scene, but that scene itself can also stand as an amalgam of multiple studio scenarios from perhaps a dozen musicians who got a part from Brian during this era and questioned if those were the notes he wanted them to play because they didn't seem to work or fit on paper until they heard the whole thing. Again I point to Barney Kessel and others who have said they weren't sure how it all would work as they were recording parts for Brian, and it was only after they'd hear the track on the radio or on an album in finished state that it made sense.


Title: Re: Bassist Carol Kaye Slams \
Post by: HeyJude on January 06, 2020, 02:22:53 PM
We're often reminded that our musical heroes are also human beings. So very true. Yet, this cuts both ways. It means we should remember we all have flaws and should be treated fairly. It also means even a supremely talented and accomplished individual can be mean, bitter, cantankerous, and so on. Carol Kaye has earned the reputation she has.

I'm frankly surprised any movies or TV shows are risking a portrayal of her even tangentially. I'm surprised legal counsel didn't instruct the makers of the L&M film to portray a character as far removed from Kaye as possible to avoid her complaints or worse. At which point she probably would have complained that the film ignored her.

I pity the next poor soul that actually tries to tell her in an interview that she's probably not playing anywhere on the finished master of "Good Vibrations." That she played on a zillion other great records, and was there for a bunch of historic BW/BB sessions would not assuage her ire.

And yes, as Wirestone mentioned, she also has claimed credits that others have attributed to Jamerson, who conveniently isn't here to defend himself.

Kaye actually reminds me a bit of Mike Love. Both supremely talented, *and* supremely accomplished in the musical field. Both have so many accomplishments that they would never *need* to claim extra credit or diminish anyone else's accomplishments. They differ of course, because Mike Love more often than not (e.g. outside of some interview settings) manages to be kind and polite with fans, etc.

Kaye has been treated more than fairly by just about any fan/scholar in the BB world I can think of. She's frankly lucky that, time after time, fans and scholars *continue* to preface anything they say about her by pointing out what a great and accomplished player she is. Rarely have I seen anyone just get down to brass tacks and say "I don't care what records you played on, you're being mean to people, often if not usually unjustifiably."

That all being said, I don't think any of this is a big deal. Only music buffs/historians/fans know who she is, and even among that grouping the number of people continuing to listen to her rants have decreased over time. While it's not a bad idea to point out inaccuracies in these films, I think most folks should consider themselves lucky that anybody cares enough to even tangentially portray them (or some variation of them) in a TV show or film.

"Love & Mercy" could have just gone the "Summer Dreams" route of showing the BB's vocal sessions and ignoring the studio musicians.


Title: Re: Bassist Carol Kaye Slams \
Post by: CenturyDeprived on January 06, 2020, 02:44:30 PM


Kaye actually reminds me a bit of Mike Love. Both supremely talented, *and* supremely accomplished in the musical field. Both have so many accomplishments that they would never *need* to claim extra credit or diminish anyone else's accomplishments. They differ of course, because Mike Love more often than not (e.g. outside of some interview settings) manages to be kind and polite with fans, etc.
 

It's sadly about older people hanging onto perceived slights from decades back. In Mike's case, he was *absolutely* wronged by Murry (and sadly, Brian didn't step in), so he understandably has some legit gripes that left deep emotional scars because he hung onto the anger, and watched those around him get credit for stuff he felt he should have gotten credit for.  Obviously there was some weird emotional stuff going on to begin with which this situation must have exacerbated (case in point, Denny it would seem, by comparison, wasn't holding onto anger of his being omitted from "You Are So Beautiful", although granted that was only 1 song).

It seems in Carol's case, the near exact same thing repeatedly happened to her, just not in a singular band/family situation, but somewhere along the line she was either not credited for something (probably many things) that she *should* have been credited with, and/or for decades didn't get widespread (beyond superfans) public recognition for her contributions to popular music.

In both of their cases, it almost feels like their brains got rewired to such an overcompensational (is that a word?) degree that the pendulum swung waaaaaay too far in the other direction. And now both of these talented individuals are their own worst enemies. It's really, really sad.

Speaking for myself, I'll never take away an ounce of respect for either Carol or Mike's legit contributions, but I will continue to feel bad for what they do to their reputations (and in Carol's case, how she - unintentional as it may be - appears to grab credit from other musicians, thus screwing them over unnecessarily). Nobody should belittle either Mike's or Carol's legit contributions, but it will surely continue to happen as a result of how they've acted for years.

I am no historian, just going on what the research experts say in terms of her saying she's on stuff that she isn't really on - much like Mike overcompensating to grab credits on stuff like a few words in the tag of WIBN. There's a lot in common with their mindsets. Sad, sad, sad. I can't imagine holding onto such a level of resentment as an octogenarian as to get repeatedly publicly hostile over stuff.

But also, on an empathetic note, I will also say that I haven't lived Carol's or Mike's lives. They've been through crazy sh*t that we surely cannot properly comprehend fully, that's a certainty.


Title: Re: Bassist Carol Kaye Slams \
Post by: guitarfool2002 on January 06, 2020, 06:20:28 PM
There's also the whole issue of her claiming credit for tracks featuring the astonishing Motown playing of James Jamerson -- a groundbreaking African-American musician who has passed away and not able to defend himself.

Carol, whatever her musical talents, has more than earned whatever enmity comes her way.

In light of the above two posts from HeyJude and CenturyDeprived, where they see similarities between Carol and Mike Love, would you say Mike has also more than earned whatever enmity comes his way? The similarities are pretty close in terms of claiming and/or taking credits that are sketchy if not outright unearned, filing and fighting for frivolous lawsuits and legal actions that go nowhere and have no merit, along with various comments about bandmates and people no longer alive to defend themselves that were mean-spirited if not outright false.

It makes for an interesting parallel.


Title: Re: Bassist Carol Kaye Slams \
Post by: guitarfool2002 on January 06, 2020, 06:32:08 PM
I'm going to play devil's advocate here, for discussion purposes.

Hypothetical situation: What if a TV show or a film was set in, say, 1969, and showed a character clearly modeled on Mike Love actively doing drugs (smoking a joint, taking some 'shrooms, etc) and talking about other activities related to whatever...and Mike himself did not engage in those activities? How long would it be before the legal papers and C&D's and other sh*t starts flying at the producers of that show or film from Mike's camp?

In this case, *in this case alone*, the issue seemed to be the character in the show based on Carol talking about one night stands on the road. Again advocating the other side of the issue, what if Carol was the complete opposite of that, and seeing her portrayed as promiscuous or as someone who slept around on the road would be highly offensive and would not be how she would want people to know her via a character based on her own self?

At some point I can see where this specific issue would or could be a trigger for her being a woman in an industry and career (as a guitarist and bassist) dominated by men, especially at the time shown in this series, and I'm sure at that time and beyond she had to fight all kinds of biases and stereotypes as a woman who played guitar professionally. As someone said, we don't know what she had to go through in her career, but I'm sure fighting off stereotypes and also trying to dispel rumors about women in Hollywood and the music business in the 60's and 70's (and up to the present) was something she dealt with too much, and it may still be a major trigger for her. So when a TV series suggests something she had fought to dispel for years about not just her but women in the industry in general, maybe that history would shed light on why the reaction *in this specific case* was what it was.


Title: Re: Bassist Carol Kaye Slams \
Post by: juggler on January 06, 2020, 08:04:46 PM
I'm going to play devil's advocate here, for discussion purposes.

Hypothetical situation: What if a TV show or a film was set in, say, 1969, and showed a character clearly modeled on Mike Love actively doing drugs (smoking a joint, taking some 'shrooms, etc) and talking about other activities related to whatever...and Mike himself did not engage in those activities? How long would it be before the legal papers and C&D's and other sh*t starts flying at the producers of that show or film from Mike's camp?

In this case, *in this case alone*, the issue seemed to be the character in the show based on Carol talking about one night stands on the road. Again advocating the other side of the issue, what if Carol was the complete opposite of that, and seeing her portrayed as promiscuous or as someone who slept around on the road would be highly offensive and would not be how she would want people to know her via a character based on her own self?

At some point I can see where this specific issue would or could be a trigger for her being a woman in an industry and career (as a guitarist and bassist) dominated by men, especially at the time shown in this series, and I'm sure at that time and beyond she had to fight all kinds of biases and stereotypes as a woman who played guitar professionally. As someone said, we don't know what she had to go through in her career, but I'm sure fighting off stereotypes and also trying to dispel rumors about women in Hollywood and the music business in the 60's and 70's (and up to the present) was something she dealt with too much, and it may still be a major trigger for her. So when a TV series suggests something she had fought to dispel for years about not just her but women in the industry in general, maybe that history would shed light on why the reaction *in this specific case* was what it was.

You make a good point.  I haven't seen the show, but if the "Carol Keen" character is doing or saying things that the real Carol Kaye finds morally objectionable, then, yes, she has a right to be mad.  Anyone would be.  Van Dyke Parks, for example, was very angry at the way he was portrayed in the Love/Stamos "American Family" miniseries, and he succeeded, I believe, in getting ABC to make some edits.  I can't recall VDP's specific objections, but he has long complained about and disputed accusations that he ever supplied drugs to BW.  Similarly, if "Carol Keen" is a slutty character, and Carol Kaye has a problem with that, well then her complaints about the show are legitimate.

To some extent, though, it's a kind of a bassist-who-cried-wolf situation.   When she denounces Denny Tedesco's Wrecking Crew documentary and bellyaches about the (harmless) way she's portrayed in "Love and Mercy," the reflexive reaction is going to be "there she goes again."   But, as you say, she very well may have a legitimate, understandable beef in this case.


Title: Re: Bassist Carol Kaye Slams \
Post by: HeyJude on January 07, 2020, 06:40:51 AM
Without knowing the actual production stories involved in this TV show, I can only guess there's certainly a reason they've altered the name to "Carol Keen." They clearly want to reference a real life person as an inspiration for the character, but then also want license to deviate as much as they need to. Sounds more like they mostly created a new character, and then referenced Kaye in some very key specific ways.

I have to wonder if the makers of the show are familiar with Kaye and her reputation as far as her cantankerous, argumentative personality. I wonder if maybe they aren't (or weren't), as I could have told them the smart thing to do would be to create a new character in every conceivable way they could. Whatever; give them jet black hair, no glasses, etc.


Title: Re: Bassist Carol Kaye Slams \
Post by: HeyJude on January 07, 2020, 06:49:12 AM
Van Dyke Parks, for example, was very angry at the way he was portrayed in the Love/Stamos "American Family" miniseries, and he succeeded, I believe, in getting ABC to make some edits.  I can't recall VDP's specific objections, but he has long complained about and disputed accusations that he ever supplied drugs to BW. 

Here's the 2000 Bill Holdship article where Parks goes into the 2000 TV movie. Sounds like he mainly got them to slap a disclaimer on the second part of the film, and even that was due to him calling in a favor. Elsewhere in an old thread on this board, Alan Boyd mentioned that Parks also didn't allow any of his lyrics to be used in the film. While nobody can blame Parks for being pissed about the film and pulling any cooperation he possibly could, it also ended up rendering the already-questionable film as having an even *more* inaccurate depiction of the "Smile" project by not being able to juxtapose the crazy stuff going on at that time with the *amazing* music. By having to delete any of the amazing music Parks co-wrote, they ended up having to add the knock-off music that made the whole thing come across as 60s hippie nonsense.

Anyway, here's the article (the article is also instructive in general with how "real life" things are depicted in these dramatizations):

from The Los Angeles New Times 4/6/2000

Heroes and Villains

Brian Wilson's back, recording a live album at the Roxy this week and preparing for a summer tour with symphony orchestras throughout the U.S. So isn't it time to address the lies and half-truths depicted on ABC's recent Beach Boys miniseries?

By Bill Holdship

They say that history belongs to the victors. In the case of the Beach Boys' always strange Southern California saga,  the term boils down to two survivors -- namely, Mike Love, the group's cocky lead singer, and Brian Wilson, the group's musical architect and resident genius -- and their often distorted memories.

Brian Wilson, as you're apt to have read somewhere by now, has been on a solo tour for the past year, which has taken him through the U.S., as well as in front of hysterical, ecstatic Japanese fans, and to a showstopping performance at Neil Young's annual Bridge Concert in San Francisco late last year. On Friday and Saturday nights of this week, he'll be recording a live album at the Roxy, which will be released via his Web site (BrianWilson.com) later this year.

"I'm thoroughly convinced that nothing in the world makes him happier than being around a group of people performing vocal harmonies," says Darian Sahanaja, co-leader, singer, and keyboardist of the Wondermints, who make up the core of Wilson's backing band. "I think it's a very spiritual thing. It's his very favorite thing -- that and food!" He laughs.

"Going into this, we already knew Brian Wilson is not Bruce Springsteen," Sahanaja continues. "He's never been a performer, so it's never really been about that. It's always been about his vision, creativity, his songs, his arrangements, and his sensibility. So the shows have basically been to showcase the legacy of the music with the man himself -- the actual composer -- present."

"I'm a pretty happy guy," Wilson says during a brief interview between rehearsals for the shows. "In fact, I'm as happy as hell!"

Nevertheless, even current information continues to get distorted in this musical saga, sometimes coming from the main surviving source himself. It's little wonder, then, that historical facts get blurred. For instance, Brian claims: "I haven't been able to write anything new in over a year, but I have been playing a lot of piano. I've been at the piano every day, two or three times a day -- trying to keep alive, keep my voice alive. But I haven't been able to get any new melodies going. I've had writer's block, I guess." Yet, Sahanaja reveals that in addition to a new version of Wilson's gorgeous "Till I Die," the Roxy shows will be augmented by two brand-new Wilson originals, including a tune titled "This Isn't Love."

Of course, this type of distortion is basically minute detail, based on Wilson's whim of the moment, and ultimately harmless. When it comes to Beach Boy Mike Love's selective memories, however, things get a little more complicated and a lot more damaging. In fact, perversion may be a preferable word to distortion when it comes to Love's version of the truth.

During the last several months, there have been several television specials examining the Beach Boys phenomenon. In the last three weeks alone, Court TV ran a special documenting the various Beach Boys lawsuits involving Brian (and usually his cousin Mike Love) over the last decade, while American Movie Classics just hosted a Saturday night Beach Boys marathon, The Beach Boys: Then & Now, which included a rebroadcast of Endless Harmony, a documentary originally made for VH1 and recently released commercially on VHS and DVD by Capitol Records. Not coincidentally, when Mike Love offers a sound bite in the documentary, presenting himself as the "bright, positive" counterpart to Brian's "dark" side, history has a way of suddenly being rewritten. For instance, in a new scene added to the DVD version, Love suddenly takes credit for suggesting that Paul McCartney write a Beach Boys-like song about Ukraine girls, which, of course, became "Back in the USSR" -- and which is news to any rock historian who's followed the story throughout the years.

The worst example of Love's revisionism, however, was the ABC-TV miniseries, The Beach Boys: An American Family, which ran two nights in late February as part of sweeps month. Produced by actor John Stamos (who frequently drummed for the Love-fronted nostalgia unit calling itself the Beach Boys in the years following Dennis Wilson's death), the film could have listed a credit for Minister of Propaganda to Love. As an angry review on a Beach Boys-related Web site explained: "[The film was] a monstrously vile, twisted perversion of the truth...It's Mike's version of what happened, told with a huge smirk at all the so-called 'Brian freaks' he so deeply disdains."

The ironic thing is that when Wouldn't It Be Nice, the Brian Wilson autobiography written with Todd Gold (and, many argue, Dr. Eugene Landy, Wilson's controversial psychotherapist), was published in the mid-'90s, the ever-litigious Love was part of a libel suit against Wilson, Gold, and the publishers over objectionable material in that book. Shortly after that suit (and after Landy was out of the picture), Love was awarded $5 million from Wilson following a suit he filed over cosongwriting credits he claimed he never received; Love is currently suing former Beach Boy Al Jardine over the name "The Beach Boys' Family & Friends," which Jardine has been using to bill his current touring group, which includes Brian's daughters, Carnie and Wendy. It's almost as though Love has tried to claim his legacy via the American judicial system. And when that wasn't enough, he created a miniseries to claim his glory, presenting himself as the true vision behind the  Beach Boys. The sad fact, though, is that the TV movie now exists forever as a strong public record -- in other words, to be believed as history by those who don't know any better.

"I didn't like the second part," Brian hesitantly says of the miniseries. "It wasn't really true to the way things were. I'd like to see another movie if it was done right. But I just sort of turned my back to this one, or my other cheek, or whatever you wanna call it. It was best just to ignore it because it really wasn't true to life."

Sahanaja remembers a rehearsal last summer when Wilson's wife and comanager, Melinda, was on the phone with a copy of the script in front of her, yelling at one of Love's representatives over certain questionable content. Brian was so upset that he asked for the keys to the car and sat in the parking lot until the incident was over. "It was so sad," says Sahanaja, "because Brian's happier now, trying to move on -- and yet this stuff from the past keeps popping up to haunt him. My theory is that Brian and Melinda were most disturbed, apart from all the Mike Love propaganda at Brian's expense, by a scene that depicted Dennis Wilson screaming, 'You never supported me as an artist,' at his older brother. From everything I've read and everyone I've ever talked to, Dennis was the one guy -- perhaps the only guy -- who always stood by Brian."

In fact, the miniseries begins by portraying Dennis (who reportedly despised Love; legend has it that   the two were once involved in a fistfight onstage at the Greek Theatre in the '70s) and Love surfing together as best friends -- the two studs on the beach -- even though every Beach Boys history to date claims Dennis was the band's only surfer. The film then depicts it being Love's idea to form the band, and as the miniseries progresses, Mike comes up with nearly every brilliant idea -- from creating the titles Pet Sounds and Endless Summer to "jamming with John and Paul" in India -- as Brian rapidly becomes a slobbering, drug-crazed idiot. It's almost comical. Accordingly, a German-based Web site devoted to the work of Wilson collaborator Van Dyke Parks (www.vandykeparks.com) is currently hosting a "Best Mike Love Joke" contest. One of the funniest is a short story in which Love takes credit for writing songs with Bruce Springsteen, creating Live Aid, reuniting the Eagles and Fleetwood Mac, directing Schindler's List, and creating Windows 95 ("Bill Gates didn't give me credit!"), among other things.

"There are two sides to every story," concludes Sahanaja, "and I'm sure some of what Mike claims is legit. But I'm also a believer in it's all about how you present yourself. I think he could get his due, but I don't think people are willing to give it to him just because of the way Mike is."

It's perhaps fitting that the Love joke page should be found on a Van Dyke Parks Web site, since -- next to the three Wilson brothers themselves -- Parks was the historical figure most maligned by the ABC miniseries. Parks, Brian Wilson's musical collaborator on the ill-fated and ultimately aborted Smile LP (the planned follow-up to Pet Sounds),  was depicted as a drug-addled hippie, only several steps removed from Charles Manson, and a key figure in Brian's eventual breakdown and decline.

Of course, the movie makes no mention of Parks' subsequent substantial career -- he's worked with everyone from the Byrds, Paul Revere & the Raiders, and his friend Harry Nilsson to, more recently, Fiona Apple, U2, Sam Phillips, and Rufus Wainwright, the latter whose debut LP he coproduced. The telepic also makes no note of his movie or TV soundtracks, nor seems to consider his collaboration with Brian Wilson several years ago on the wonderful Orange Crate Art album. But in a gallant move that totally counterbalances Parks' portrayal in Love's film, Brian and Melinda recently asked Parks to do the orchestration for a proposed tour this summer that will have him and the Wondermints performing Pet Sounds in its entirety, with symphonies, throughout the country. (The show is scheduled to play the Hollywood Bowl on September 24th.)

"As I understand it, Pet Sounds wasn't done with an orchestra for the record," says a concerned Parks. "So the point here wouldn't be to get a whole bunch of people together to play Brian's music simply for the bravado of it. It's not about what can be added to the music, but what can be done to confirm what's already on the record. I wouldn't want to intrude too much, but I would work very hard to layer [the orchestration] correctly. So I'm hoping that I can do it. But the fact that I'm being considered to work on Brian's summer tour is a positive confirmation of the real value he places on me and the value I place on him."

Nevertheless, Parks -- ever the Southern gentleman -- remains flabbergasted by his portrayal in the movie, as he sits in the quiet Hancock Park home he shares with his wife, Sally. The composer claims that he's asked the ABC legal department to delete the eight mentions of his name before they "exploit" the film again, although "the jury's still out and the damage has already been done."

He also claims that it was his phone call to old friend Lucy Fisher, cochairperson of Sony Entertainment, that got the network to run a disclaimer about the show often being "a work of fiction with much dramatic license." Parks claims the Sony executive called him seven minutes before the telecast to let him know what she'd been able to do. "She's a very decent person," says Parks. "I'd phoned her to express the Wilsons' dismay at the tenor of the show, and when she called me back she said it was the least she could do for all the pleasure she'd received over the years from Brian Wilson's music. She didn't say the Beach Boys. She may have meant the Beach Boys, but she said Brian Wilson."

He reflects a moment. "What's amazing to me -- and in a way, it's a compliment -- is that Mike Love has borne -- and I'm sure it cost him some great effort -- such an animosity toward me for so many years."

It's especially ironic in light of the fact that Wilson's other lyrical collaborators -- Roger Christian, Tony Asher, Gary Usher -- were never even mentioned in the film. After all these years, Parks -- and his "acid alliteration," as Love once termed it -- obviously still pose some sort of threat to Love. "It astonished me," says Parks. "Likewise, seven of Mike Love's wives were not named in his autobiographical television project. I thought that was a big slight. I was actually embarrassed by the time Mike Love devoted on his anger toward me.

"I finally needed to investigate, in my own mind, the basis of Mike Love's adolescent animosity because, quite simply, I was blindsided by it. What exactly did I do? Well, many years ago, I suggested to Brian Wilson that he put a cello on 'Good Vibrations.' He did, and it became a signature sound of that song. I also suggested the triplet fundamentals in the music. I did that. And I admit that Brian then offered me the lyrics to that song because he was embarrassed with the 'excitation' part Mike Love had insisted on adding. But I told Brian that I wouldn't touch it with a 10-foot pole and that nobody'd be listening to the lyrics anyway once they heard that music. Besides, why should I make an enemy of Mike Love?

"So I turned down Brian's kind offer to cowrite 'Good Vibrations.' I was more interested in a long-term relationship with Brian. And it was one of the few times I've actually been smart in my career because it ensured I'd work with Brian again in other ways. And when I later found out that the lyrics that I was writing for Brian Wilson were a matter of great concern amongst the other Beach Boys, particularly Mike, I walked away from the opportunity. And I did so because I thought it might ease Brian's anxieties. I hoped it might make his life better.

"That wasn't depicted in the film. Nor was the question: 'Who was Van Dyke Parks to the Beach Boys?' Well, for one thing, I co-wrote the song that brought Brian to Carnegie Hall when Leonard  Bernstein called 'Surf's Up' one of the great songs of the 20th century. I did that by relieving Brian of the lyrical juvenilia of fast cars and faster women. That image was very much perplexing Brian at that time. He wanted a more poetic vision in his music. Now, it wasn't necessary, but it was his individual right. So I helped him explore that. And happily so! And then I left that world for a career as an executive at Warner Bros. Records.

"The Beach Boys were at a very low point in their career. They'd left Capitol Records, but they ended up at Warner Bros. because I personally begged [then Warner chief] Mo Ostin to sign them. And they were considered a problem at that time. They were an industry albatross, simply because there were so many egos involved. Everyone at the label just wanted Brian Wilson to come over and write some songs. Well, the Beach Boys were in Holland and had recorded what the label called 'an unreleasable album.' I still had a demo tape of 'Sail On, Sailor.' I came up with that lyric when I was working with Brian, as well as the [musical] pitches those words reside on. I did nothing with that tape until I saw the Beach Boys crisis at the company where I was working, earning $350 a week.

"Well, they recorded the song, and it was a hit. And I'm glad that everyone then came out of their little rooms to claim cowriting credit on that song. But I never questioned it, just as I never questioned the various claims on the residuals. You could say I did the Beach Boys a nice turn there. It was just a nice thing to do.

"Many years later, when [producer] Terry Melcher wanted to take the song 'Kokomo' to the tropical islands, he called me and wanted to use my Rolodex, so to speak. So, I brought some great   musician friends -- people who'd played with Sinatra, Fitzgerald, Cecil Taylor -- to play with me on that session. I was paid well for my work, although it was a nonunion session -- no hospitalization, no dental, nothing extra if it went   commercial. The Beach Boys, after all, were Republicans -- unions weren't something to mention to them. We weren't dealing with Studs Terkel. We were dealing with Bruce Johnston and Mike Love, who'd become the entity known as the Beach Boys. Of course, the song went to number one, and Mike Love always made a very big deal out of the fact that it was made without Brian Wilson. And that was always very alarming to me because beyond the Beach Boys' beautiful music, my allegiance has always been to Brian Wilson, who hired me years ago and told me he'd give me 50 percent of anything we wrote together. He said that speaking from his throne at a time when I was nobody. Isn't that the sign of a marvelous person?"

Parks recalls he saw Love one final time when Melcher called him to Monterey to play synthesizer on the Beach Boys' final album, recorded without Brian, 1992's dreadful Summer in Paradise. A neighbor offered to fly the musician to Monterey in his one-engine plane if Parks agreed to cover gas and other expenses. When he got there, Love was meditating in Melcher's living room. "For the first time in 30 years, he was able to ask me directly, once again, 'What do those lyrics -- Over and over the crow flies, uncover the cornfield -- mean?'" Parks said about that meeting in '95. "And I was  able to tell him, once again, 'I don't know.' I have no idea what those words mean. I was perhaps thinking of Van Gogh's wheat field or an idealized agrarian environment. Maybe I meant nothing, but I was trying to follow Brian Wilson's vision at that time." Parks says Love asked if he could fly back to L.A. in the plane with him. "We had a nice chat and he insisted that he wanted to split the cost of the flight with me, so he gave me a card with his number on it. The next morning, I called to discover it was a disconnected number. And that was the last time I saw Mike Love."

As for the druggy way Parks was portrayed in the film, "I'd already told my young children years before that unlike Bill Clinton, I did inhale. Unlike Mike Love, I did inhale. But unlike George W. Bush, I also grew up in the '60s, which were a time for renewal and revelation. It's not theoretical. The night I was out in Hollywood with Phil Ochs and we got beat up by policeman because we were part of a group pressuring Lyndon Johnson not to run again, well, that was the night Johnson decided not to run. So the '60s were not theoretical. I associated with people who had courage back then and people who were beautiful. I saw the beautiful people -- and, believe me, Brian was one of them. I'm very sorry about the way that show portrayed him and -- let me be very emphatic here -- that was not the Brian Wilson I knew.

"I never took a joint to Brian's house, just as I'd never offer drugs to any employer. It's just not prudent! One thing that was true was I never went into [Brian's living room] sandbox, but that's only because there was dog sh*t in it. It wasn't because I was too good or arrogant to do it. But I never went into that [marijuana] tepee, because I didn't want to be smoking a joint when Mike Love walked into the room. I was working for the most powerful man in the American music business at the time. I was very aware of that fact and had no desire to spoil it.

"The lyrics ultimately just got out of my hands. I was not a Dadaist. I didn't sit in on the [Smile] 'Fire' sessions [the night Brian reportedly went insane]. By then, he was surrounded by so many people that I knew my opportunity to do this little American quilt work with him called Smile was over and done with.Mike ultimately put a stop to it. And yet the movie brought into question a certain amount of work I did for Brian many years ago, most of which was never commercially released, due in large part to Mike Love's objections. I'm very proud of the music I made with Brian Wilson. But I'm also proud that I walked away from a great opportunity at the time to maintain peace."

Parks wasn't pleased how the other Wilson brothers were portrayed in the film, either. Carl Wilson -- often credited with keeping the band together after Brian's breakdown -- hardly existed in the flick. "I thought a great deal of Carl Wilson," says Parks. "He was a really nice guy. I didn't do a lot with him, but he was always very nice to me and extended himself to me in very subtle ways. He was a very gifted man. The last time I saw Carl, I played 'Ave Maria' at his mother's funeral, and he embraced me afterwards. To be with him and Brian at Audrey's funeral was a very big deal to me, personally."

As for Dennis, Parks offers one telling anecdote. "That movie showed Dennis Wilson cowering in front of Charles Manson!" says Parks. "Well, I'll tell you what really happened. One day, Charles Manson brought a bullet out and showed it to Dennis, who asked, 'What's this?' And Manson replied, 'It's a bullet. Every time you look at it, I want you to think how nice it is your kids are still safe.' Well, Dennis grabbed Manson by the head and threw him to the ground and began pummeling him until Charlie said, 'Ouch!' He beat the living sh*t out of him. 'How dare you!' was Dennis' reaction. Charlie Manson was weeping openly in front of a lot of hip people. I heard about it, but I wasn't there. The point is, though, Dennis Wilson wasn't afraid of anybody! Dennis was a total alpha male -- something Mike Love wants to be but isn't ."

Parks understands that An American Family will stand as a legacy for Beach Boys fans who don't know the history, but he's hoping that the music will ultimately stand as the stronger legacy. "What I saw on that show about Brian Wilson was false, and   that's all I really need to say," he concludes. "I guarantee you it was a pack of lies. And I'll tell you something -- I'll give you one final clean piece of evidence. The audience was led to believe by that movie that John Lennon wanted to jam with Mike Love. Well, I was with John Lennon one time, and he told me that he and Paul thought that Mike Love was -- and these are the words John Lennon used -- 'a jerk.' The Beatles thought Mike Love was a jerk. So there are obviously two different impressions of that meeting. Mike Love has one and John Lennon had another. So, I'm submitting John Lennon's recollection to you since he's no longer here to do it himself."

It's nice to know that history can sometimes be redeemed by the survivors on the sidelines.

Brian Wilson and the Wondermints play the Roxy, 9009 Sunset Blvd., West Hollywood, on Friday and Saturday, April 7 and 8. Both shows are sold out.


Title: Re: Bassist Carol Kaye Slams
Post by: Margarita on January 07, 2020, 08:17:24 AM
The "Carol Keen" character is portrayed as slightly older, wiser, and more worldly than Midge Maisel.  The point of the "one-night stands" discussion is to set up for a later situation that Midge finds herself in (not gonna say any more so I don't spoil it).  Carol is not slutty at all - the discussion is very matter-of-fact.  Everything about this character is very respectable.  And I doubt that the producers knew or cared about the real CK's reputation - they wanted to pay homage to a woman who definitely belonged within the Boys Club, just like Midge is trying to do as a comedian.  The fact that CK can't handle that is not their concern.


Title: Re: Bassist Carol Kaye Slams
Post by: Amy B. on January 07, 2020, 12:36:16 PM
The "Carol Keen" character is portrayed as slightly older, wiser, and more worldly than Midge Maisel.  The point of the "one-night stands" discussion is to set up for a later situation that Midge finds herself in (not gonna say any more so I don't spoil it).  Carol is not slutty at all - the discussion is very matter-of-fact.  Everything about this character is very respectable.  And I doubt that the producers knew or cared about the real CK's reputation - they wanted to pay homage to a woman who definitely belonged within the Boys Club, just like Midge is trying to do as a comedian.  The fact that CK can't handle that is not their concern.

Yes, it really is about a more seasoned professional giving Midge advice on how to survive as a woman on the road. She is portrayed as kind, wise, and intelligent on a show where other characters become cartoonish in the writers' attempts to mine comedy from them. In terms of the "slutty" thing, that's not at all what they're trying to portray. Midge is sexually liberated, and Carol is portrayed that way too, but not in a way that she's sleeping with everyone she meets. I believe there's also a scene where another musician is trying to follow Carol into her hotel room and she chases him out.
They changed the name so they could take license, I'm sure, and create the character they wanted to without worrying about legal issues. They do have Lenny Bruce in the show, which is a little odd, considering he'll die at some point and the tone of the show isn't really set up for that. They use him as Midge's mentor/object of sexual tension. And they use his real name. Other characters, like Sophie Lennon, a hack-y comedian who is not a likable person and is Midge's rival in many ways, are probably based on a number of different people, but they are characters. I really do think the show thought it was just paying homage to Carol.


Title: Re: Bassist Carol Kaye Slams \
Post by: onkster on January 18, 2020, 01:05:36 PM
I often wonder how Carol thought of her portrayal in the moment during the recording of Surf's Up Part 1, where Brian instructs the crew to sort of peter out at the end of the verse. Carol acts mildly alarmed at this open-ended instruction, wanting to get it right, but thinking it was sort of weird. "Don't worry about it, Carol," Brian says. "But I DO worry, Brian," says Carol. "But you mustn't, Carol," Brian continues.

Oh wait: not a portrayal, but an actual session recording. Perhaps this moment was the inspiration for the Maisel scene?

Maybe she's forgotten this moment. But I haven't--I found it interesting and revealing.


Title: Re: Bassist Carol Kaye Slams \
Post by: RangeRoverA1 on January 18, 2020, 10:23:10 PM
I've zero clue what's "Ms. Maisel" & what you eat it with (local phrase :police: ) but either way, it's between it & Carol Kaye, I care strictly about Carol's musical achievements/ skillful musicianship. Just respect & admiration towards her.


Title: Re: Bassist Carol Kaye Slams \
Post by: juggler on January 18, 2020, 10:39:24 PM
I often wonder how Carol thought of her portrayal in the moment during the recording of Surf's Up Part 1, where Brian instructs the crew to sort of peter out at the end of the verse. Carol acts mildly alarmed at this open-ended instruction, wanting to get it right, but thinking it was sort of weird. "Don't worry about it, Carol," Brian says. "But I DO worry, Brian," says Carol. "But you mustn't, Carol," Brian continues.

Oh wait: not a portrayal, but an actual session recording. Perhaps this moment was the inspiration for the Maisel scene?

Maybe she's forgotten this moment. But I haven't--I found it interesting and revealing.

That's a really good point.  The Brian-Carol repartee in the Surf's Up session could indeed have been a partial inspiration for that 'Love & Mercy' scene.  It's pretty clear that the screenwriters listened closely to the Pet Sounds/Smile tracking sessions, as a few of the scenes including some of Brian's dialogue are practically word-for-word reproductions.