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Smiley Smile Stuff => General On Topic Discussions => Topic started by: urbanite on December 05, 2019, 03:54:24 PM



Title: Who Produced Susie Cincinatti?
Post by: urbanite on December 05, 2019, 03:54:24 PM
I like the song, it's got energy and great backing vocals.


Title: Re: Who Produced Susie Cincinatti?
Post by: Pretty Funky on December 05, 2019, 06:59:32 PM
I believe itís Brian.

https://www.discogs.com/The-Beach-Boys-Susie-Cincinnati-Child-Of-Winter/release/11415807


Title: Re: Who Produced Susie Cincinatti?
Post by: c-man on December 05, 2019, 11:02:11 PM
It's an interesting question...the original 45 releases read "Produced by The Beach Boys", as did most of their late '60s/early '70s product. Then, of course, the song was included on 15 Big Ones, where the overall production credit went to Brian (same with the subsequent single releases, as seen in the one linked above). However, when the remixed song appeared on 2013's Made In California box set, it was credited as "Produced by Brian Wilson and Al Jardine".

I've actually heard the tracking session tapes - there were two separate tracking sessions, a few days apart. On the first session, Al is producing from the control booth, while Carl played guitar on the studio floor, and on the second session, it's Carl producing with Al on the floor playing the guitar. The master is from the second session. So I would say Carl definitely deserves a co-production credit. The tapes I heard didn't include the vocal sessions, so it's possible Brian was producing or co-producing then...especially since he's credited with the arrangement on the back of 15 Big Ones (I'd totally believe he arranged the vocals, at least). So perhaps the correct credit would be "Produced by Al Jardine, Carl Wilson , and Brian Wilson"? Or is it just easier to say "Produced by The Beach Boys", as the original credit reads?  :)


Title: Re: Who Produced Susie Cincinatti?
Post by: Fall Breaks on December 05, 2019, 11:09:02 PM
Thanks c-man, interesting as always. I'm curious, how does the atmosphere on the more home-spun recordings with the BBs playing the instruments differ from the Pet Sounds/Smile era atmosphere where brian conducted the wrecking crew? Is there tension between band fractions already? Is it laidback and friendly? Strictly professional? Would, for example, Al och Carl be as "picky" as Brian and have them run through 28 tales of, say, Susie Cincinnati?


Title: Re: Who Produced Susie Cincinatti?
Post by: Howie Edelson on December 06, 2019, 04:52:43 AM
The raw session tapes are incredible. Al, Bruce, and Dennis Dragon.

Al's throwing in a few Townshend-esque flourishes, for a sound that can only be described as The Velvet Underground playing live at 12 noon on a Malibu beach.
Powerful and positive.


Title: Re: Who Produced Susie Cincinatti?
Post by: aeijtzsche on December 06, 2019, 05:16:30 AM
Now, Iíve heard the later session, which was used as the basis for the released track, which is coolóbut who the heck is playing bass?  That ainít Bruce (who is on a nearly inaudible piano?)

The playing is so hip and comfy.


Title: Re: Who Produced Susie Cincinatti?
Post by: Howie Edelson on December 06, 2019, 05:44:51 AM
At least Takes 1 & 2 are Bruce.

Doesn't 15 BIG ONES credit Brian on the master?

If so, wouldn't that mark BW's final bass playing on a new BB track?


Title: Re: Who Produced Susie Cincinatti?
Post by: aeijtzsche on December 06, 2019, 07:01:22 AM
No way thatís Bruce.  Unless this track marked his absolute transcendent apotheosis as a bass player.  Itís just not a style he was ever fluent in, that Iíve heard, at least.


Brian might have overdubbed some lines on the final track.  I think Iím the end it was only the drums that really got used from that session.


Title: Re: Who Produced Susie Cincinatti?
Post by: Joel Goldenberg on December 06, 2019, 07:50:14 AM
Just to add, the Beach Boys: Best of the Brother Years CD credits the song's production just to Al Jardine.


Title: Re: Who Produced Susie Cincinatti?
Post by: All Summer Long on December 06, 2019, 08:43:29 AM
C-man and aejitzsche,

Is it possible that Carl overdubbed some guitar too or that Al played two parts? Every time I listen to the master I swear I hear rhythm and lead guitar. And if most of the parts from the original sessions were replaced, when did these overdub sessions likely happen, 1969-70-71 or 1975-76?

Thanks ahead of time for your expertise! Love to hear the band playing some rock and roll.


Title: Re: Who Produced Susie Cincinatti?
Post by: c-man on December 06, 2019, 08:47:07 AM
Version One of "Susie" has Carl on guitar, Brian on bass, Dennis W on drums, and Bruce on piano, with Al producing.

Version Two has Al on guitar, Dennis D on drums, Bruce on piano, and I can only assume Daryl on bass, with Carl producing. Daryl was playing a lot of bass for them at the time (the released verseion of "Slip On Through" is a great example). Other instruments were overdubbed (including Carl's guitar).

I assume the 15 Big Ones credits were based on someone's memory, or a listen to the session tape resulting in confusing and combining credits for the two versions. It was remixed for that album, so they would've heard the multi-tracks again at that point.

As for the mood on these home studio sessions - mostly jocular, sometimes impatient, no malicious sniping or factious arguments - nothing of the sort. Al's pretty hard on himself, which is, I think, why he doesn't play much on their post-'65 tracks.


Title: Re: Who Produced Susie Cincinatti?
Post by: SaltyMarshmallow on December 06, 2019, 09:02:12 AM
In the same sort of ballpark, I've always been curious about who produced/arranged At My Window and the Sunflower-era Back Home, and how the demo fits into this between the dates listed on Bellagio.  As well as Al's two attempts at the lead there's a very interesting bootleg where Mike can faintly be heard singing different lyrics to Brian's original '63 melody. Any insights from those who've heard the tapes?


Title: Re: Who Produced Susie Cincinatti?
Post by: aeijtzsche on December 06, 2019, 09:19:54 AM
At my Window actually had a fair around of session tapeóand feels very much like a mid 60s session in some ways, with the flutes and other session players.

Iím not at home so I canít access my notes but I seem to remember that Brian ran the session?



Back to Suzie, Daryl does seem like a candidate for bass player, and like I said, itís such a great line.  The dragon brothers were so good for The Beach Boys, musically. 

I donít hear any of Alís original guitar on the final track.  He has some trouble playing the riff during the session, and I think his conception of it was funnier than what went on the release.



Title: Re: Who Produced Susie Cincinatti?
Post by: c-man on December 06, 2019, 09:47:39 AM
Track sheet notation for "Susie" indicates there are two rhythm guitars on one track, plus fuzz lead guitar on another. So I guess the most likely scenario is that Al's original guitar track was replaced by a new track of Carl and Al both playing rhythm guitars at the same time, and then Carl did a separate track of lead guitar.


Title: Re: Who Produced Susie Cincinatti?
Post by: DonnyL on December 28, 2019, 09:34:24 PM
This is as good a time as any to ask: why the heck was this track included on 15 Big Ones?


Title: Re: Who Produced Susie Cincinatti?
Post by: c-man on December 28, 2019, 10:49:14 PM
This is as good a time as any to ask: why the heck was this track included on 15 Big Ones?

Well, in the months leading up to that album's release, Timothy White spent quite a bit of time hanging out with the band, at Dennis' invitation. At one point, Dennis explained to White that the long gap between new Beach Boys albums was not due to a lack of available material to choose from: "We have a lot of stuff in the can we could have put together and released, but it just wasn't that. It's always left up to the writer of each song as to what will happen to it, and we couldn't agree on enough of the old material." Apparently "Susie" was the one "in the can" track the group could agree to release (even though, technically, it had already seen limited release as the B-side to two singles that quickly vanished). That February, during a phone conversation with White, Brian said, ďThereís a few cuts in the can weíre gonna use on one of our new albums, like ĎSusie Cincinnatií, which was never on an album. I am working on a new version of it because itís a good song...Yes, a song called 'Susie Cincinnati', which is an original and which is up-tempo harmonies and, aaah, that's all that I can think of right now. It was written by Al Jardine." Brian then proceeded to sing the first two lines of the song to White, concluding by explaining, "It's about a female cab driver." In reality, the new version of "Susie" that Brian spoke of was a simple remix of the original 1970 recording; according to White, this remixed version was offered to Warners as a potential single release in January by Carl, who then withdrew the offer when the group changed their minds. Dennis played a cassette dub of the newly-remixed "Susie" on his tape deck to White in February, when White visited his camper trailer in Marina Del Rey one afternoon. Dennis then dismissed the song with a laugh, calling it a "silly piece of sh*t", and (obviously forgetting its two prior B-side appearances) said, "Did we release that? I doubt it".

So, I guess the answer is, "because Brian liked it".


Title: Re: Who Produced Susie Cincinatti?
Post by: DonnyL on December 29, 2019, 10:18:36 AM
Ah makes sense ... also makes sense why it was on 2 different B-sides too then.


Title: Re: Who Produced Susie Cincinatti?
Post by: tpesky on December 31, 2019, 08:18:54 PM
Iím guessing thatís why it ended up in the set list a few years ago ...because Brian likes it.


Title: Re: Who Produced Susie Cincinatti?
Post by: Needleinthehay on January 01, 2020, 12:14:03 AM
Sorry if this is the wrong thread -- just a quick question, c-man always has a ton of great info about stuff like this (much appreciated for all your great info!), i was just wondering how he has it? Did/does he work as an engineer for them or is he just a historian whos don a lot of research...? thanks!


Title: Re: Who Produced Susie Cincinatti?
Post by: Ian on January 01, 2020, 06:11:06 AM
Yeah I agree more with Dennis about that one. To me most of alís tunes in that period are kind of novelty songs that I usually skip but to each their own


Title: Re: Who Produced Susie Cincinatti?
Post by: Ian on January 01, 2020, 06:15:45 AM
To answer your question c-man developed a web site in which he used the sea of tunes releases to really analyze how the BBs recorded all their Early music. His respect for the music and well written analysis caught the eye of Alan Boyd and others in the inner circle and led to him writing the sessionography for the smile box set and some other releases-hence he had a chance to listen to more session tapes then you and I


Title: Re: Who Produced Susie Cincinatti?
Post by: ♩♬🐸 Murry the Friendly Ghost ♯♫♩🐇 on January 01, 2020, 08:54:42 PM
That sounds like the greatest job in the world next to actually mixing it.


Title: Re: Who Produced Susie Cincinatti?
Post by: Rocker on January 03, 2020, 01:41:16 AM
To answer your question c-man developed a web site in which he used the sea of tunes releases to really analyze how the BBs recorded all their Early music. His respect for the music and well written analysis caught the eye of Alan Boyd and others in the inner circle and led to him writing the sessionography for the smile box set and some other releases-hence he had a chance to listen to more session tapes then you and I


Let me chime in into the praises of c-man's great work by adding the link:

http://www.beachboysarchives.com/


Title: Re: Who Produced Susie Cincinatti?
Post by: c-man on January 03, 2020, 04:46:15 AM
To answer your question c-man developed a web site in which he used the sea of tunes releases to really analyze how the BBs recorded all their Early music. His respect for the music and well written analysis caught the eye of Alan Boyd and others in the inner circle and led to him writing the sessionography for the smile box set and some other releases-hence he had a chance to listen to more session tapes then you and I


Let me chime in into the praises of c-man's great work by adding the link:

http://www.beachboysarchives.com/

Thanks, Rocker. I might add that the input of others, such as aeijtzsche and SaltyMarshmallow, is becoming increasingly valuable in the ongoing pursuit of accuracy in this endeavor. I'm often asked why I don't publish my work in a hardcopy book...my answer is that, as a trained historian (admittedly a B.A. and not a Masters or PhD, but still), I realize that recorded history requires constant updating whenever newly discovered facts (or the opinion of a respected peer) dictates such...and the blessing of the internet is such that updates can happen instantly, whereas an outdated "fact" in a book remains out there forever, even if a new edition is published.  :)


Title: Re: Who Produced Susie Cincinatti?
Post by: Awesoman on January 03, 2020, 07:08:18 AM
I remember on the 1999 "Volume 3" greatest hits compilation, this song seemed to have a thicker, punchier mix versus the version found on 15 Big Ones (where it sounded a little flat).  I'm guessing this was the single mix?


Title: Re: Who Produced Susie Cincinatti?
Post by: kennyhasbeenfound on January 04, 2020, 08:39:03 AM
If I remember correctly, didn't John Belushi really like this song?


Title: Re: Who Produced Susie Cincinatti?
Post by: RJM on January 05, 2020, 03:20:55 AM
I remember on the 1999 "Volume 3" greatest hits compilation, this song seemed to have a thicker, punchier mix versus the version found on 15 Big Ones (where it sounded a little flat).  I'm guessing this was the single mix?

I donít have Volume 3 handy, but I think youíre correct. Every track on Volume 3 used single mixes.


Title: Re: Who Produced Susie Cincinatti?
Post by: Bicyclerider on January 05, 2020, 06:09:25 AM
If I remember correctly, didn't John Belushi really like this song?

Yes it was one of his favorites.


Title: Re: Who Produced Susie Cincinatti?
Post by: SaltyMarshmallow on January 06, 2020, 08:15:10 AM
To answer your question c-man developed a web site in which he used the sea of tunes releases to really analyze how the BBs recorded all their Early music. His respect for the music and well written analysis caught the eye of Alan Boyd and others in the inner circle and led to him writing the sessionography for the smile box set and some other releases-hence he had a chance to listen to more session tapes then you and I


Let me chime in into the praises of c-man's great work by adding the link:

http://www.beachboysarchives.com/

Thanks, Rocker. I might add that the input of others, such as aeijtzsche and SaltyMarshmallow, is becoming increasingly valuable in the ongoing pursuit of accuracy in this endeavor. I'm often asked why I don't publish my work in a hardcopy book...my answer is that, as a trained historian (admittedly a B.A. and not a Masters or PhD, but still), I realize that recorded history requires constant updating whenever newly discovered facts (or the opinion of a respected peer) dictates such...and the blessing of the internet is such that updates can happen instantly, whereas an outdated "fact" in a book remains out there forever, even if a new edition is published.  :)

Thanks! Always glad to be useful, I'm just patiently/enthusiastically anticipating those website updates :)


Title: Re: Who Produced Susie Cincinatti?
Post by: urbanite on January 06, 2020, 12:24:27 PM
As to John Belushi, who doesn't like a song that rocks about a cigarette smoking female cab driver that goes zooming around Cincinatti and gives out free rides?  Nice change from the typical subjects of lyrics.


Title: Re: Who Produced Susie Cincinatti?
Post by: Rocker on January 07, 2020, 01:14:57 AM
As to John Belushi, who doesn't like a song that rocks about a cigarette smoking female cab driver that goes zooming around Cincinatti and gives out free rides?  Nice change from the typical subjects of lyrics.



"Her looks aren't exactly a plus
but it doesn't matter to us"

I always have to laugh when I hear that part. Really a cool song. And the engine sounds are incredible sounding.


Title: Re: Who Produced Susie Cincinatti?
Post by: Matt Bielewicz on January 07, 2020, 01:58:03 AM
This track has always had a rough ride from fans, it seems to me: like it's a completely disposable throwaway (perhaps because Dennis dissed it so vocally in that Tim White interview?). I think it's better than that, and really rocks. I rate it as one of Al's finest tracks meself, and one of the best things the Boys did in the 70s. And yeah, I think the single b-side mix is better, too! Not so keen on the recent remix on MiC with Dennis's questionable interjections myself, but I know others like it.

It's quite musically cool, too - if my cloth ears hear correctly, there's the clichťd step-up key change you often get towards the end of a rock track, but it comes after a descending guitar phrase suggests the track's going somewhere completely different first. That appealed to my sense of the musically unexpected the first time I heard it (a bit like how God Only Knows goes through all those changes in the bridge, and then unexpectedly resolves for the 'God only knows what I'd be without you' line before the final verse)... and it's unusual for a track mostly done by Al, isn't it?

I really love the bass in the coda/fadeout, too... it seems really thunderous. Perhaps that's Stephen Desper's doing on the original B-side mix?


Title: Re: Who Produced Susie Cincinatti?
Post by: Rick5150 on January 10, 2020, 02:08:51 AM
I am waiting for the instruments/only track and the vocals/only track.  ;D

I think Susie with different vocals would be cool. The song has a really good energy.


Title: Re: Who Produced Susie Cincinatti?
Post by: c-man on January 10, 2020, 07:57:35 AM
I am waiting for the instruments/only track and the vocals/only track.  ;D

I think Susie with different vocals would be cool. The song has a really good energy.

What's wrong with the vocals? I think they're fine as is! BTW, do we have a consensus on who's singing the falsetto in the tag? Al sings it live in the January '77 footage, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's him doing it on the record...


Title: Re: Who Produced Susie Cincinatti?
Post by: SaltyMarshmallow on January 10, 2020, 09:27:24 AM
I am waiting for the instruments/only track and the vocals/only track.  ;D

I think Susie with different vocals would be cool. The song has a really good energy.

What's wrong with the vocals? I think they're fine as is! BTW, do we have a consensus on who's singing the falsetto in the tag? Al sings it live in the January '77 footage, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's him doing it on the record...
Sounds like Al there too to me, or if not that then maybe Al with Bruce, haven't tried to isolate to work out if it's doubled. I don't think it's Brian or Carl.


Title: Re: Who Produced Susie Cincinatti?
Post by: c-man on January 11, 2020, 08:50:06 AM
I am waiting for the instruments/only track and the vocals/only track.  ;D

I think Susie with different vocals would be cool. The song has a really good energy.

What's wrong with the vocals? I think they're fine as is! BTW, do we have a consensus on who's singing the falsetto in the tag? Al sings it live in the January '77 footage, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's him doing it on the record...
Sounds like Al there too to me, or if not that then maybe Al with Bruce, haven't tried to isolate to work out if it's doubled. I don't think it's Brian or Carl.

Yeah, definitely not Carl. I'd buy Al and/or Bruce, and maybe Brian...


Title: Re: Who Produced Susie Cincinatti?
Post by: SaltyMarshmallow on January 11, 2020, 12:24:46 PM
I am waiting for the instruments/only track and the vocals/only track.  ;D

I think Susie with different vocals would be cool. The song has a really good energy.

What's wrong with the vocals? I think they're fine as is! BTW, do we have a consensus on who's singing the falsetto in the tag? Al sings it live in the January '77 footage, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's him doing it on the record...
Sounds like Al there too to me, or if not that then maybe Al with Bruce, haven't tried to isolate to work out if it's doubled. I don't think it's Brian or Carl.


Yeah, definitely not Carl. I'd buy Al and/or Bruce, and maybe Brian...

Having given it a closer listen along with some OOPSing: it's Al, I'd bet my life on it. Sounds like it was double-tracked and bounced over to one channel.