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June 20 1963-The Beach Boys were on tour in Hawaii on a bill with Dee-Dee Sharp, the Treniers and Jackie De Shannon that was advertised as the “Show of Stars.” David Marks recalled that the Beach Boys backed up Dee-Dee Sharp and Jackie De Shannon. They were at Baldwin Auditorium in Maui on June 20, Hilo Civic Auditorium on June 21 and Bloch Arena at Pearl Harbor on June 22.  As Elmer Marks home movies (seen in the American Band and Endless Harmony documentaries) illustrate Al was on this tour in place of Brian.  Audree was also there as a chaperone. When the BBs eventually headed home, they played at the Las Vegas Convention Center, with the Teen Beats on June 29 1963.

June 22 1964-The BBs were working on possible singles and they held a session for what became Don’t Hurt My Little Sister. The next day they added background vocals to Little Honda for a possible single release before returning to work on the Christmas LP on June 24 and 25.  They then played a concert in San Jose on June 26 with Bobby Freeman, Rene and Rene and the Paris Sisters before heading back to the studio to complete the Christmas sessions on June 27 to 30 1964.

June 24 1966- Irving Granz and his assistant, future BB road manager Jack Lloyd produced a concert at the Cow Palace in San Francisco. Murry Wilson was in attendance to support his new protégés the Sunrays, whom he’d managed to get onto the bill. Also on the bill were the Lovin’ Spoonful, Chad and Jeremy, Percy Sledge, The Outsiders (Time Won’t Let Me), The Leaves (Hey Joe), Sir Douglas Quintet (She’s A Mover), Neil Diamond, The Byrds and The Jefferson Airplane.  Now that’s a concert!!!! The next night the BBs played the Hollywood Bowl with Brian in attendance (he was photographed backstage for KRLA Beat). The bill featured Love, Percy Sledge, Captain Beefheart and his Magic Band, The Outsiders, Neil Diamond, The Leaves, Chad and Jeremy, Byrds, The Sunrays, The Lovin’ Spoonful and the New Motown Sound.

June 20-21, 1967 the BBs worked on the Hawaiian Song (we now know this was part of the track to Little Pad) On June 25 and 26 they recorded “Good Time Mama”, which remains unreleased as the tape box is missing (However-Howie Edelson posited that it was a working title for She’s Going Bald) On June 28 they worked on Little Pad and then the next day was devoted to Fall Breaks (Woody Woodpecker Symphony). On June 30 they worked on With Me Tonight.

Jun 20 1968- Bruce tinkered with The Nearest Faraway Place. Dennis held a session on June 26 for an untitled song. June 28 1968-Brian produced the single-I’ll Keep On Loving You/As Tears Go By for Ron Wilson at ID Sound. It would be interesting to see a photo of this session or even a photo of Brian and Ron together.

June 20 1969 the BBs made their second trip to Finland to play the Keimolan Juhannus Juhla in Vantaa (near Helsinki), Finland. On June 21 they played at the Antwerp Pop Festival and then returned to England for two encore shows by popular demand at the Finsbury Park Astoria with Marmalade and the Rainbow People.  Mike Ledgerwood of Disc and Music Echo reported, “the Beach Boys certainly left us with some good vibrations.  A full blooded, power packed bumper programme which included most of their big hits and Carl Wilson’s clever, if at times a tiny bit flat, rendering of ‘God Only Knows.’ …Musically they might not exactly reproduce their famous studio sounds, but they have a damned good try and the result is not disappointing.” The Flame apparently departed for the States with Carl after the 69-tour and he then produced their first album that fall.  Mike and Bruce remained in England to tape an appearance on Top of the Pops on July 25-where they introduced film footage shot at Leeds. Bruce also spent time working on a single for his pal Graham Bonney.

June 20 1971-A session was held for Fourth of July, which took place in the midst of the legendary Rolling Stone Magazine article being written-with interviews of Brian and Murray.  June 24 1971 the BBs began a tour at Celebration Island in Pointe Coupee, LA without Dennis, who was still recovering from a hand injury that left him unable to drum for three years. Pink Floyd, Miles Davis and BB King were also on this Festival bill.  The BBs then headed to another Festival in Toronto-The Beggars Banquet Festival with Alice Cooper, Bread, Chilliwack, Steppenwolf, Blood Rock, and Lighthouse on June 26.   They then played at the closing of Bill Graham’s legendary Fillmore East on June 27 with Mountain, the Allman Brothers, J Geils Band, Albert King, Edgar Winters and County Joe McDonald.  I recounted in my book that the BBs almost didn’t appear at this highly publicized event because of Jack Rieley’s demands to be top billed. Fortunately their agents talked them out of walking out. The BBs then played at Theatre Maisonneuve in Montreal on June 30, where Dennis rejoined the tour-though he now mainly wandered the stage singing a bit or noodling on the piano.  While the BBs were on tour Steve Desper was back in LA producing the second (unreleased) LP for the Flame.

June 26 1972-The Marcella/Hold on Dear Brother single was released, while the BBs were working on the Holland LP in the Netherlands. Around this time the American Spring LP was released as well.  June 20 1974 the BBs played in Bangor Maine with The Apple Butter Band. On June 21 they appeared at the Civic Centre in Ottawa. The reviewer noted, “At different times, five Beach Boys played keyboard instruments, often four at one time, as in the case of the highlights of the opening half: We Got Love, Marcella and Sail on Sailor, all equally exuberant and all recent Beach Boys products. But the audience was happiest with the hits.” Dennis had still not returned to drums and the reviewer noted, “Everything but contributing musically, Dennis, who still at least looks like a Beach Boy with his relatively short hair, jeans and muscle shirt, wandered around aimlessly, and occasionally flexed his pectorals.” The BBs then played the Memorial Arena in Binghamton on June 22 and at the “World Series of Rock” at Municipal Auditorium in Cleveland with REO Speedwagon, Lynyrd Skynyrd and Joe Walsh with Barnstorm on June 23 1974.

June 21, 1975 The BBs played at Wembley Stadium with Elton John, Joe Walsh, the Eagles, and Rufus with Chaka Khan.  NME declared, “In soccer terms, it was Elton John 1, Beach Boys 3.  Where the Beach Boys, with their close harmony, good time sounds and gospel of nothing more profound than the joys of teenage love, immediately connected with the audience, Elton John seemed obsessed with piano dominated, moody music and was for most of the time on a cloud of his own.”  June 24-28 1975 the BBs returned to the Beachago tour for five nights at the Capitol Center, Landover, MD. These shows were taped for a live album, which I assume will someday come out if all the tapes can be found and rights obtained.  Jun 1975, Beach Boys-Chicago TV Special, Various locations

William Reid produced a TV special about the Beachago tour called “Fun, Fun, Fun” that featured footage from Madison Square Garden and the Capitol Centre in Largo, Maryland. The Beach Boys are seen performing “Catch a Wave”, “Good Vibrations”, and “Fun, Fun, Fun.”  While the BBs were in the DC area they visited the White House as guests of Susan Ford on June 24 1975
The following night members of the BBs, Chicago and the Pointer Sisters all attended a screening of Jaws after the show.  On Jun 29 Beachago played the Schaeffer Center, Foxboro, MA.  The reviewer noted “Here is a group that is obviously proud of its past. It reeled off 19 songs spanning all phases of a long and successful career, all performed with adolescent enthusiasm and genuine style.”

June 20 1976- Scenes were filmed of Brian’s birthday party, attended by the McCartney’s, for the Beach Boys It’s OK TV Show that aired in August. Possibly the scenes of Brian surfing with Belushi and Ackroyd were also filmed this day.  June 23 1977-Brian recorded a version of Gimme Some Lovin.  Four days later a master of the Adult Child album was assembled.  This was a highly productive period for Brian-who’d really slimmed down-it’s evident in retrospect that things might have been different if he’d received encouragement at this time-but the band was in a dysfunctional place and this was really the peak of “Brian’s Back”.  This was as “Back” as he’d get.

June 20 1978-The BBs played the Spectrum in Philadelphia-with Charles Lloyd, which was recorded for radio. Jack Lloyd of the Philadelphia Inquirer noted, “There was a time when the Beach Boys rebelled at the thought of being regarded more in terms of nostalgia than musical growth, but now it appears that they have gracefully accepted their fate. The emphasis in concert is certainly on the vintage biggies that bring the audience to its collective feet and spark the cheering and hand clapping.” The next night they were in Rochester, NY and then played the Forum in Montreal (22) Ottawa (23) and the CNE Grandstand, Toronto- with Steve Miller, Journey and Pablo Cruise on June 24.  According to a fan, Brian fainted onstage during "Good Vibrations" due to the heat and “Mike strapped on a green electric guitar. I'm not sure if he played it or not, also not sure if it was a bass or a six-string (I think the latter). It would have been for Barbara Ann and Fun, Fun, Fun.” Typically the reviewers didn’t remark on this unusual occurrence. 

June 25 1978 the BBs played before a massive crowd of 61,128 at the first concert held at the newly constructed Giants Stadium with Stanky Brown, Steve Miller and Pablo Cruise. The reviewer noted “(Mike) Love made a costly mistake when he threw back the first Frisbee that landed on stage. The group was bombarded with missiles from all directions after that and one well-aimed roll of toilet paper wrapped itself around Brian’s bass.”  There was still tension in the band at this time. In an interview, Carl was asked why he Dennis left the stage when Mike did a “TM song” and stated Dennis’s “attitude is that we should be doing Beach Boys music-a collaboration.  I thought we were just taking a break.” Asked about Celebration, his anger flared “Love’s project doesn’t mean s….”.  Jun 27 and 28 1978-The BBs worked on Santa Ana Winds and Winds of Change. The next day the MIU album was mastered.

June 19 and 20 1979 the BBs played at Red Rock in Denver with Ironhorse. This was right after Dennis had been suspended from the band. They then played the Aladdin Hotel in Las Vegas, and then spend two days at the Greek Theater at UC Berkeley. June 21 1980-The BBs played at Knebworth. The concert was simulcast on radio and then “Sweetened” before being sold on home video and LP: new vocals and instrumental parts were added. It was of course the last UK concert played by all five original members.  Although Brian participated little vocally, he’d temporarily shaved off his beard and looked much as he did around 1968.  Karl Dallas of Melody Maker noted, "The Beach Boys...seemed as if they could have gone on all night and still have the audience, if not all the local burghers, crying for more.  Not that they were flawless. Perhaps it was the brotherly burden of having Brian Wilson on stage with them, but the Beach Boys are nothing if their harmonies are less then perfect, and there were times ('In My Room', their fifth number, was where the rot began to set in) when the discords were positively painful. On the other hand they sailed through the complexities of 'Good Vibrations', the second of four encores, with hardly a note out of place.”

June 20 1981 the BBs played at Poplar Creek in Chicago and then played three nights at Pine Knob near Detroit. John Laycock of the Windsor Star, commented: "Technically speaking they didn't play all that well. I've heard bar bands with half as many members get more fidelity out of these numbers.  But never mind. By now the songs have their own life. They have such independent presence they let Mike Love serve as front man with his hoarse voice, mincing around the pristine white stage in front of the matching white instruments. And they let Brian Wilson sit like an unhappy Buddha at the baby grand, chain smoking and staring at the keyboard.” The BBs then played Six Flags in Atlanta (24), Butler University in Indianapolis, IN (25), Blossom Music Center in Cleveland (26), Nashville (27), Charlotte, NC (28) and Charleston, SC on June 30 1981.

Meanwhile Carl was on the road with the Doobie Brothers, serving as their opener.  In a not untypical review of the show in Cedar Rapids on June 25 the reviewer commented, “Wilson had better keep his Beach Boys slot intact. His thing seems to be heavy-metal rock, with a rhythm and blues influence.  That’s OK but Wilson just didn’t pull it off at the Five Seasons, receiving only polite acceptance from the crowd. Many of his vocals were distorted and the music selection was poor for a live concert. Wilson did inject a couple of Beach Boys songs into the act, most notably Darlin’ but it was done with a much heavier beat than the original. A version of Sam and Dave’s “I Thank You” showed promise, featuring some fine bass by Gerald Johnson and lead guitar by John Daley but towards the end of the song it sounded as though the band strayed from the melody.”

Another BB tour took place in June 1982 but Carl participated in this one and the now increasingly dysfunctional Dennis and Brian didn’t-which made a big difference. Commenting on the Six Flags Over Texas show on June 20 the reviewer stated “The lineup was much stronger than the one that came through in March...The Beach Boys that played Fort Worth in March were fun, but they weren't too cohesive.  This time the boys were fun and a lot tighter." The tour continued through the south and Midwest till June 27. The tour ender in Charlotte was reviewed by Charles Johnson of the Observer who was disappointed by the group's insistence on only playing hits. "That emphasis ignored the group's inventive work that followed 'Good Vibrations,' a No. 1 hit in 1966. After repeated commercial and artistic failures in the 1970s, the Beach Boys in concert have returned to their oldest and safest material. Although three of the group's original members... appeared at Carowinds, the group often sounded as if it were only a shadow of it's former self...But Carl Wilson injected style and emotion into his few lead vocals, especially on the lovely 'God Only Knows' and 'Good Vibrations.'”

June 22 1983 Carl embarked on a short solo tour to promote his second solo album Youngblood.  He played in Seattle at Parker’s that night and then opened for America at the Greek Theater in LA on June 24 and 25, the Irvine Meadows Amphitheater on June 26 and the Old Waldorf Club in San Francisco on June 29. Reviewing the June 26 show Veronica Young of the Orange County Register attended commented that Carl “appeared to be having more fun than he has at most Beach Boys concerts…Wilson’s material ranged from mellow originals, strongly affected by a Beach Boys’ influence from the album eras of Pet Sounds, Surf’s Up and the more recent MIU, to some rocky remakes, ranging from a 1957 hit by the Coasters, ‘Youngblood,’ (also the title song from Wilson’s latest LP) to a 1970 gold record by Sly and the Family Stone, ‘Thank You.’”

June 20-25 1984-Carl traveled to Red Bus Studios in London to work on The Beach Boys LP with Steve Levine. He worked on Where I Belong, It’s getting Late, Maybe I Don’t Know, Down by the Pier and I Do Love You.  Carl was back in the States by June 28 to appear with the BBs on the NBC TV Tonight Show, hosted that night by Joan Rivers. They Sang Graduation Day and discussed Brian’s weight loss, groupies and the upcoming July 4 show, as well as the James Watt controversy.  The next night the Beach Boys, minus Brian, played before a near capacity crowd at The Pacific Amphitheater. Jim Washburn of the Orange County Register singled out Carl’s vocal contributions as “the only proof that the group is still capable of being more than just human jukeboxes.  His hauntingly beautiful ballad ‘Heaven,’ dedicated to his brother Dennis, carried an emotional spark the Beach Boys could certainly use more of.” The BBs played in Candlestick Park the next night.

June 1985 the BBs again were on tour. The June 23 show in Memphis got a nice review from Michael Donahue of the Commercial Appeal: “The Beach Boys delighted the audience with a range of their unique California sound songs…The Beach Boys aren’t content to rest on their numerous hits of the past.  They recently showed that they could still make hits with Getcha Back.  They performed this song, which has the Beach Boys ingredients including the wailing vocals.  It would have been hard for a Beach Boys fan to walk away unsatisfied.” Think I’ll stop there, as this could go on forever-as they basically have been on tour in June every year!!

In 1978 it should say "he and Dennis left the stage"

Thank you so much for these "week in BB history" posts Ian. Please keep 'em coming if you can!

Now the real interesting thing is Carl (?) apparently saying that Mike Love's Celebration project "doesn't mean sh*t." Kinda doesn't jibe with the "go along to get along" Carl we think we know, though I guess I'd say this is still a late '70s quote, so it makes sense.

Right-Carl was a real diplomat but occasionally he let out a little frustration come out in unguarded moments

It's interesting too that Carl felt that way about the "Celebration" stuff in light of his having sat in for a Celebration gig (along with Brian) when Celebration did that gig at USC in April.

I think Carl was just in a rare sometimes drunk, surly mood in 1977/78, and probably didn't have his usual filter. Think about the turmoil just between mid-1977 and mid-1978. Carl was drinking more at gigs, then the September "Tarmac Incident" where the band nearly broke up, and then early 1978 saw the Australia debacle.

That the band was alive, active, and doing gigs in the summer of 1978 was arguably a small miracle.

Agreed that he might not have had his usual filter. While he was usually positive about stuff he also was the “quality control” guy and of course he knew deep down that celebration was crap. He probably just had an honest moment and actually said it by accident. I mean would anyone on this board say celebration was great? I doubt it.

Ps love these posts keep them coming!

Carl was the QC guy indeed. But he certainly wasn't filling that role in 1977/78; it's telling that we have pro-shot shows on video over a year apart (Largo, MD from January 1977 and Australia 1978), and Carl is toasted at both shows ("78 more so of course).

As even attested to in Jon Stebbins's "Real Beach Boy" Dennis bio, Al Jardine was about the only person holding that 1978 Australia/New Zealand tour together. Carl was out of it, Brian was head-in-the-clouds at best, Dennis seemed relatively together ironically but was embroiled in all of the politics, and Mike was doing his usual schlock stuff, like trying to teach multiple lines of lyrics to an audience that had never heard the song in question ("Country Pie').

I'd also argue that while Carl, as musical director, kept the Beach Boys generally very professional sounding through his tenure in 1997, the band got pretty stale and rote.

Just imagine a band *with* Carl and the rest of the guys, but with Mertens and Totten as musical directors really motivating everybody to up their game.

 It’s 100% true that Carl was still pretty screwed up in early 78 but he was in much better shape by 1979-by which time the other two Wilson were in poor shape! I’m sure this contributed to his desire to branch out and do a solo album in 1980

The slowed down arrangements and toy keyboard heavy sound they were doing at the end of Carl's tenure were abysmal. I will never figure out why he did that.

Well Carl was a very private person and to this day remains a bit of an enigma as a result but my own feeling is that he kind of surrendered in the late 80s and mike kind of took control. It’s well known that Carl didn’t love playing the resorts in Tahoe and Vegas and absented himself from what he perceived as embarrassments like wipe out with the fat boys

I actually think the band sounded the way they did toward the end of Carl's tenure was because Carl thought that's how contemporary music should sound...listen to that Wilson-Beckley-Lam album and you'll know what I mean. Some great songs and vocals there, but the instrumentation, arrangements and production are kinda bland on much of it.

Another milestone date from this week: June 24, 1974: Capitol released the double-compilation album Endless Summer. On the very same day, Dennis was in the studio, laying down the piano track for "Holy Man". I find it rather ironic that the very day Capitol released a compilation of great, but older songs, very much from another era in rock music - Dennis began recording this inspired, forward-looking piece. Don't get me wrong...I love Endless Summer, and really dig the idea that all these '70s kids (like myself) turned on to the great sounds of the BBs. But unfortunately, its success pretty much buried any newer music the group did. Maybe if "Holy Man" had seen contemporary release as a group single, things would have been different...or maybe not. We'll never know!

The 90s touring band sound was just the next extension of what had been going on in the 80s, which was paring *down* the extra instrumentation (especially acoustic instruments) and going more streamlined. The 90s band sounded about as good as a band could with a problematic drummer (no offense to Kowalski, who was by all accounts a great drummer in the late 60s and into the 70s), and only two keyboardists doing both "rhythm" piano and then the orchestrated bits, and kind of 1 and 1/2 guitarists once Foskett/Baker left, as Al and Carl's guitars were not at the forefront of the band sound apart from Carl's solos. Carter was always solid in bass.

They added Cannata on sax (and some keyboards) into the 90s, but that was about it. No acoustic pianos on stage. Eventually no Hammond organ. No horn section (which admittedly was only a sporadic thing that stopped by the late 70s for the most part).

I think a combination of contentment/attrition and indeed Carl's preference for that David Foster-Chicago-ish adult contemporary sound did lead to the band sounding the way it did.

Listening to something like the great setlist on the '93 Paramount NYC show, the main problems are the drumming and the tinkly (aka "toy keyboard" as someone else put it) keyboards.

I think the touring band through the end of Carl's life was just playing in a different fan/critic atmosphere as well. The sort of indie/nerd Brian/PetSounds/Smile stuff had only started to be a "thing." I don't think Carl would have found it logical prior to 1998 to either shift the band to a big, lush, ensemble the way Brian did in 1999,  nor to truly drastically change up the setlist to add either later-era or even earlier-era deep cuts. I'm also not sure Carl would have been on board for essentially wiping the slate clean of a bunch of the "live" arrangements he had honed over all those years, and going back to playing the early-mid 60s stuff "just like the record."

Look at mid 90s setlists. They weren't even doing stuff like "Kiss Me Baby" or "Don't Back Down", rarely did even things like "Please Let Me Wonder." It's supremely odd Carl *never* once sang "Good Timin'" on stage for the last 15 years of his touring career.

There were a *few* brief moments where they tried a *few* odd things. For some reason, in pre-Kokomo 1988 they all of a sudden got *crazy* and added "This Whole World", "Forever", and "Caroline No" to the setlist. They didn't even last the year.

I think Carl was locked into the idea that the masses woudln't go for anything but the 90-minute-ish meat-and-potatoes setlist and presentation, outside of a few things here and there. And I think he was partially right. While I've always advocated that it woudln't have ended the Beach Boys' touring career to like swap out five songs now and then for something else, I don't think even a Mike/Bruce 2019 setlist would have gone over the same in a Mike/Carl/Al/Bruce 1995 Beach Boys show, let alone stuff like Brian doing the entirety of PS or Smile, etc.

Apart from the blink-and-you'll-miss-it late 1993 "boxed set tour", about the craziest the touring band got was finally adding the staccato bridge bit to "God Only Knows" after all those years.

Now, I think with some inventiveness and imagination, even in the early-mid 90s, the Beach Boys could have done more interesting things in the studio and in concert. Solo members could have found time to do "passion projects" on the side. They could have done like a one-shot "Pet Sounds" concert for PBS or whatever.

That Dutch 1989 Carl interview is telling; he specifically says he envisions that Mike will still be out there touring after everybody else is gone for one reason or another.

Carl didn't like the casino shows, and in prior years had wanted something more like the band touring less often, maybe every other year, and then they would do more arenas and amphitheaters and less casinos and fairs and whatnot. But that never happened, and Carl continued to do all those gigs.

Even when Carl had more leverage and was more motivated to stand up, he quickly gave in to some demands. Supposedly, one of the conditions of returning in 1982 was to stop booking casino gigs. But a quick look at the touring schedule tells us that didn't last long. He kept the band rehearsed enough to sound solid. But he also pretty much gave in to any elaborate setlist changes eventually.

Carl was definitely complicated. I think he often tried to be non confrontational-which was his childhood mo of trying to avoid Murray. He bottled up major disagreements. On the other hand you are probably correct about the reasons the band sounded like that being down him-as musicians I talked to all said he kept command of the band and was confrontational there. I interviewed altbach for my book and he told stories of arguments with Carl-who wanted things done his way and wasn’t happy about mike placing one of his tm buddies in the band without his approval but while Carl took it out on Ron I doubt he confronted mike

Carl was also all but removed from most of Summer In Paradise...he didn't play on it, and most tracks didn't have his vocals either, so that says a lot about his feelings toward the band's direction under Mike's guidance at that time...Carl basically checked out even on a new Beach Boys album, which was his home territory, and let Mike steer it instead. And we know what happened.

And I think that may be one of the common threads during this time to get a wider picture of the whole scene: Carl checked out quite a few times and let Mike be the skipper he always wanted to be. Thus we got SIP, Baywatch, the dancing cheerleaders, etc. Carl chose to be involved or not be involved in various projects, and let the band basically run itself in terms of the concert music.

With Al's ouster and related tensions, and Carl's absence around SIP, combined with Brian's lowest points with Landy just before the courts stepped in, maybe the band and band name should have been put on hiatus until things got sorted out instead of letting things go as they did. The best thing that happened to them around SIP's time frame was when the 2-fers hit the stores along with that GV box set and reminded people just how good they were, and how the music and presentation being given to fans was *not* what this band really was. I think that was something they (or specifically Carl?) realized as well, which led to the box set tour that was sadly too short...People were paying to see the music and deep cuts from the box, not dancers and Mike's schtick and John Stamos. Alas, it didn't last.

Yet one of the more blatant latter-day confrontations was when Carl vetoed the Paley material, at a time when the band needed new material badly and Brian was actually making music for the band again. It's too big of a backstory to discuss here, but Carl seemed to have more issues with Brian's return than we'll ever know, and had perhaps the biggest "no" vote against Brian in several cases when even Mike was jazzed up to be working with and writing with Brian again.

I really don't get that, and the whole story will perhaps never be told publicly...but there were some deeper tensions between the brothers than we'll probably ever know fully.

The late era Carl-Brian relationship is indeed underexplored. I think we have a number of *potential* reasons there were issues, but few firm answers.

It’s worth noting that even after Brian’s extraction from Landy, Brian stayed relatively estranged from the band for the subsequent few years. His last Landy era gig with the touring band was in 1990, and I don’t think he appeared on stage again with the band until 1995 (he made one or a few backstage appearances prior).

I think, however much the band and especially Carl knew the fake autobiography was a result of the abusive situation Brian was in, there were unavoidable tensions and hurt feelings as a result of that book. The entire period *immediately* upon Brian being extracted from Landy is not particularly well documented, so it’s unclear what lingering tensions may have remained.

I think other insiders/experts have mentioned that Landy did a number on Brian turning him against Carl, and there may have been fallout from that situation that never was fully resolved, which would cause issues on both sides of the relationship.

We know Carl did continue to work with Brian in some instances. There are reports of Carl, outside of the 1995 era “reunion” sessions, working on a Brian “Proud Mary” session.

I think Carl just wasn’t quite in the headspace of embracing the 90s Brian sort of “renaissance” among the nerd/indie music press/fandom. Carl was cutting David Foster/Peter Cetera-sounding stuff with Beckley and Lamm in the late 80s and into the early-mid 90s. I can imagine the idea of doing an album of retro-sounding songs, with a sometimes heavy contribution from Andy Paley, may have given Carl pause. Some have tried to parse Carl’s reported negative reaction to those circa 1995 “reunion” sessions by suggesting he didn’t nix the material in general nor cancel the project, but simply had more nitpicky issues with the backing tracks, and not doing further work on those sessions may have been more down to the (odd) decision to work on “Stars and Stripes” instead, and then by the end of 1996 into 1997, Carl had his health issues. Yet, even trying to soften Carl’s stance on the Paley material, it does seem odd that he would just “go along to get along” working on numerous ill-advised, tacky Mike-centric projects like “Summer in Paradise” and various one-off singles, yet waited until the band was working on what most observers would say was far more *substantive* work on those Paley tracks to them voice displeasure with the material.

One of the only direct quotes from a band member regarding Carl’s take on that Paley material came from an alternate edit of Al Jardine’s 1999/2000 Goldmine interview that was published in “Record Collector”; I can’t seem to find it anywhere on line. But as I recall, he indicated it was Carl who had some sort of issue with the material. Subsequently, Peter Ames Carlin got Mike on record in the 2000s saying something to the effect of his being “willing” to work on the material even if not super enthusiastic about it. Bruce Johnston told Howie Edelson that he (Bruce) felt the band was doing Brian a *favor* by being at those Paley sessions, and indicated he didn’t feel it was prime Brian material. Weird stuff from the band who was still doing “Summer in Paradise” material in concert.

Also, I think a big part of Carl and the other members’ attitudes towards Brian and Brian’s ability and potential was down to the band still being relatively estranged from Brian. They were obviously in various forms of contact at various times. But they weren’t all seeing him on a daily basis, and weren’t seeing what sort of musical stamina Brian had either in the studio or out on the road. So when it was pitched at some point in the later 90s for Brian to do a “Pet Sounds” tour with the band, I can’t entirely blame some of the band members *if* they were a bit skeptical of what Brian could do out on tour, either in terms of vocal performance or being able to sustain himself for a full tour. Obviously, though, they could have investigated this by actually working more with Brian and investigating and testing and rehearsing to see what could work.

By 1995, Brian *was* showing he was able to be quite productive in the studio. He released *two* albums in 1995, and the band was also surely aware by 1995 that Brian not only had those hand full of Paley songs prepped for the band to work on, but also that Brian had written and recorded *dozens* of songs with Paley.

The only participants in those Paley sessions with the group whom I’ve never heard anything but enthusiasm for, besides Brian of course, is Al Jardine (and Matt Jardine). Mike seemed cautious but willing (and on-site reports of the actual sessions indicate Mike was being weirdly sarcastic/antagonistic), Bruce felt he was doing Brian a favor even being there, and Carl, who also did participate, apparently had some sort of misgiving about some element or elements.

Why were the band members (excepting Al in some cases, who apparently started disagreeing with various band/Mike decisions in the 90s) willing to let Mike have his way with the band’s name and its direction, yet seemed *more* apprehensive about going back to a “Pet Sounds” format of Brian writing material largely with an outside writer, in some cases even cutting backing tracks, and then having the band cut vocals? Was it skepticism about Brian’s condition? Lingering animosity towards Brian? Longstanding skepticism about an *outside* collaborator steering a full album?

Andy Paley said in one interview that the Beach Boys could have cut full vocals for an entire album’s worth of material in two days, he was that impressed with the band’s vocal ability and also obviously confident in the material he had written with Brian.

Carl was barely there on Summer In Paradise, so I wouldn't say he did much work on it since he's hardly a presence, even vocally and didn't play a note of music on the album.

My point to consider was more involving the family issues between the brothers, and involving their mother. There is one interview with Brian where some of it came boiling to the surface, but it's not worth getting into here or now in this topic. But that stands as one of the only public airings of this kind of tension between them, including most of the books which barely mention this element, although for a more in-depth look at individual situations between them at this exact time look no further than Carlin's book. He describes Carl's either passive-aggressive behavior through actions or outright negativity toward Brian during these years, including the proposed Pet Sounds tour, and other instances where Carl's was the "no" vote on things that would have involved Brian.

One thing to make extra clear, and it's documented publicly and not-so-publicly. Brian absolutely wanted to return to making music with the Beach Boys again. As soon as he was done with Landy, he told several around him including Don Was that the thing he wanted to do most was go back to being a Beach Boy. And Brian did pay out of his own pocket to record all those songs with Paley and Don Was, which included Mike, and which he hoped would or could be used for potential Beach Boys tracks on upcoming projects.

Keep in mind, the Beach Boys at this time had A. No material to speak of and B. No label or even label interest. That cannot be stressed enough.

So Brian comes back and offers a pretty big batch of songs and songs in process, Mike is involved no matter how enthusiastic or sarcastic, and this at a time when the band had zip-zero-nada in terms of actual new original music to potentially put on an album.

Brian invited them to his house for a listening session, just like in the "old days" Mike has been longing for now for decades, and what does the band do? They all bail out on the invitation. As much of a "f*** you" as I'd assume it would feel to Brian after he openly said he wanted to get back to making music as a Beach Boy after Landy. And Carl was as much apart of that as anyone.

What happens in return? Carl tries to set Brian up with an indie artist to "co-produce" potential Beach Boys tracks...a scenario that was as ill-planned and as doomed to fail as it sounds. And that's eactly what happened.

So Brian felt like the one thing he wanted to do was getting the proverbial middle finger from his own bandmates and his own brother, yet he was being set up to record and write and produce with someone he didn't know and never met, a lot on the shoulder of Carl's planning, while he had been paying his own money to record and demo several dozen new songs in the studio which the band couldn't even be bothered to come by his house for a few hours to hear.

That's shitty. So just don't forget or leave out how there was more to even the more public musical side of the story at this time, not to mention the relationship between brothers that rarely gets in the public sphere.

In terms of Carl's position on material like "Summer in Paradise" and things of that ilk, I was speaking more to his signing off on the project. There's no evidence Carl and Al tried to block it, and indeed Carl did participate in some of the sessions, and Al came on even *later* in the project to add some vocals as well.

So I was speaking more to Carl's "go along to get along" sort of approach. However much he tried to side-step participation in some projects, or make cameos rather than participate fully, etc., he did participate and didn't block those Mike-centric projects/decisions.

Obviously, even if Al and Carl *had* banded together to block something like SIP, it would have opened up a huge can of worms and it would have been nothing but headaches. I think both Carl and Al decided to just placate Mike, which was easier to do since they (Al and Carl) clearly had no strong motivation to work on a bunch of their own solo passion projects, nor as far as we know try to assert themselves artistically in the band via bringing a bunch of new songs or trying to spearhead a new album project. I think they (surely rightly) saw it as easier to let Mike get his deal out of his system, meanwhile they could avoid blowing the whole thing up and throwing away the money-making machine that was the touring band. I think Carl just was more passive and more quickly gave over to Mike, whereas Al apparently made a bit more of a fuss at certain points (resulting in the temporarily falling out circa 1992 that Mike described in an interview at the time, and which probably ultimately contributed to setting the stage for Al getting edged out by 1998).

I believe Al spoke to Jon Stebbins for his David Marks book, and in that book it's explained that Mike wanted to produce the BB tours, Al disagreed, and Carl didn't back Al, which created a bit of, as Al told Stebbins, "estrangement" between Al and Carl.

The Brian-Carl relationship, both personal and professional, is obviously very complicated with plenty of info out there (and plenty *not* out there), and this certainly in turn impacted the goings-on with the band.

What's a bit easier to at least grasp some additional circumstantial evidence about is Carl's general attitude towards band politics and artistic decisions, some of which involved Brian and others that didn't.

What was going on circa 1995 with the Brian/Paley stuff was obviously imbued with plenty of interpersonal stuff to do with Brian, but it also involved a bunch of band politics largely outside of Brian, and we saw this play out in 1997/98 with the Mike/Carl, Carl/Al, and Mike/Al relationships all being tested and strained.

Further to the band's participation (or lack thereof) in the Brian/Paley sessions, what indicates not only a Carl-Brian relationship strain but also some skepticism and antagonism potentially from Mike and Bruce on the issue is that Mike, Bruce, and Carl all did participate in resoundingly poorly-received (critically and commercially) projects in the immediate few years prior to the Brian/Paley timeframe, yet seemed much more skeptical/apprehensive/pensive about those Brian/Paley songs. I discount Al from this to some degree both because he was the *least* involved of the four in stuff like "SIP", and also is the only one not known to have voiced any skepticism or negativity about the Brian/Paley material (indeed, in one case, there was that "Dancing the Night Away" session that Al appeared to not even get an invite to!).

How much their personal relationships with Brian impacted their varying degrees of skepticism and eventual partial rejection of the Paley material, and how much other reasons (weird personal ticks and nitpicks, just plain bad artistic vision, laziness, etc.) is difficult to say. The easy answer is that all of it was at play.

Carl's attitude around this time period will always be subject for speculation (unless an insider speaks up about it), but I have a hunch that a major contributing factor could be that The BBs didn't want to deal with an outside collaborator having a major contribution to a new BBs project from a "ground up" writing standpoint, and this may be due to the Landy crap that The BBs had to deal with for about a decade straight at that point.

Landy forced himself (and his girlfriend) into the writing/creative process and that was a giant pain in the ass, to say the least, from a creative/personal standpoint to all those involved. The band understandably were probably so, so, so mentally exhausted at the idea of a collaborator bringing their opinions and political/monetary expectations without the band "vetting" said collaborator in the manner of their choosing ahead of time.

So I'm guessing that The BBs (mainly Mike and Carl, I'm guessing, and perhaps for different reasons) just simply felt unhappy with the idea of an outside collaborator picked by Brian having too much say/sway. This is not in any way meant as a dig against Paley. I don't know how much say/sway Paley was given or wanted for this project. Paley's material was brilliant IMO, and I certainly have no idea what the songwriting/creative politics were between Brian/Paley, or Paley/The BBs at that point in time.

But just the very *idea* of someone else from the outside being brought in *yet again* and not on *The BBs* terms might be what bugged Carl and Mike so much. Yes the whole band went along with various outside collaborators on the BB85 album, but that was probably a series of decisions that were voted on and discussed internally before any material was worked on. I'm guessing the Brian/Paley situation was already in the works already and then proposed to The BBs without their input from the ground up, and maybe that just bugged them.

One can surmise the attitude from Carl/Mike towards the Paley stuff might have been similar to Mike's attitude/feelings about Joe Thomas on TWGMTR in a general sense.

But I would also tend to think that even if this theory is true (or partially true), this is just one piece of the puzzle as to why Carl felt this way at the time. I think sh*t was just complicated as f***, and relationships were strained in many, many ways, and I would not be surprised if Carl's health was affected by all of the Landy stuff (and if his health impacted his decisions around this time too).

I’m not sure how much specifically the Landy co-writing issue impacted the band’s view of Andy Paley.

Certainly, the band observed as the 80s wore on that Landy was wedging himself into Brian’s career in a “creative” way, as far as wanting to co-write and/or producer/executive produce, etc.

But this really had to be more of an observational thing, and not so much something that regularly impacted the band on a creative/commercial release level.

Landy had a few co-writes on the BB ’85 album, and one co-write on “Still Crusin’.” And he shoehorned his way into the “25th Anniversary” TV special in 1986. Not a great deal else beyond that. Most of Landy’s overreaching was on solo Brian product.

Yes, Mike has said in interviews that Landy wouldn’t “produce” Brian unless he (Landy) was involved as a co-writer or producer. But I don’t sense the band actively turned down vigorous attempts on Brian’s part to work with the band simply due to not wanting Landy around. They did *allow* Landy’s name to appear on BB project (certainly begrudgingly), and Gary Usher’s 1986 diary on working with Brian strongly indicates that Landy was moving Brian away from the group and was going as “solo” as he could to avoid having to deal with the other Beach Boys having a say. So I’d say Landy moved Brian away from the band due to “Landy” more than the band rejected Brian.

Also, I think there were other “creative” concerns the band had, back in the Landy era, with giving over a whole project to Brian. Again, in the Usher book, it seems Brian kind of wanted to produce an album himself and was kind of edged out of it. Then Usher and Melcher were vying to produce the “next album.”

Ultimately, there really was no “next album” in that era. Melcher eventually continued to produce a number of one-off singles for the band, and later on did “Summer in Paradise.”

If the band viewed the Andy Paley situation in 1995 with skepticism, I don’t think it was so much directly to do with Landy. Certainly, the whole Landy debacle didn’t leave the band *more* ready to trust what was thrown their way concerning Brian. But some of those ’95 issues may have been essentially a variation on the beef Mike had in 2012, that being Brian working with an outside collaborator (Paley in ’95, Joe Thomas in 2012) and doing so seemingly to the predominant *exclusion* of writing with Mike. And then the commensurate royalties would then also go to that outside collaborator. So I’d say if they viewed Paley with skepticism, it was more of the same thing that happened going back to the 60s with Usher, Christian, Asher, Parks, etc. Add to that the lingering animosity the band may have had towards Brian due to his book, and some general ongoing chips on their shoulders about Brian not participating in touring, and then also the band’s general lack of motivation to write, record, and release albums in that era, and you’re left with, at best, middling enthusiasm for the Paley material.

If one wants to understand how Joe Thomas did in 2012 what folks like Usher, Melcher, Paley, and Don Was *couldn’t* do in prior years, namely make a full tour and album (and accompanying live albums, TV specials, and home video releases) with the full reunited band happen, I think one important factor is Joe Thomas being a major bankroller of the thing. Those other guys in the past were looking to jump start things without a full contingent of material, usually without firm record deals, and wanted to just slide into a producer-for-hire role (I’m generalizing here of course), and maybe exercise some amount of A&R on the material. Conversely, Joe Thomas had the money and organizational skills to be, as Howie Edelson once put it, the guy clapping his hands together and *telling* the band “okay, here’s what we’re gonna do.” He found the money, the infrastructure, and had a huge bag full of Brian Wilson songs ready to go, all earmarked as “waiting for the Beach Boys.”

It's worth noting that Carl *did* take issue with Landy's lyrics, at least in once published case. In that 1989 Dutch interview, he seemed to mock Landy's lyrics on "In My Car." This interview was done while Landy was still with Brian, and Brian was still working with the band on some projects. That was about as directly confrontational as Carl would get in interviews. And even then, he kind of seemed to at least attempt to play off his criticism as kind of being more bemused at the bad lyrics.

But really, while I'm not *in any way* endorsing either Landy being with Brian at all nor Landy's lyrics, I can't really say objectively that "I'm master of my fate, when I accelerate" is like the *worst* lyric the band ever released. I mean, Carl signed off a few years later on releasing "Summer of Love", and had previously *sang* on a song with horrendous lyrics like "Hey Little Tomboy."

I think the band rightly saw that Landy was bad news, and dinging his lyrics was just kind of an extra tangential thing to point out. The lyrics being there in the first place were a symptom of a much bigger *life* problem.

The only specifics we've heard even tangentially about what Carl thought of the '95 Paley stuff is that he didn't like the backing track to "Soul Searchin"", meaning the re-cut Don Was-produced backing track that he sang to (and that we've never even heard!). At some point *prior* to Carl's death, the first attempt was made to take the Was-produced vocals and graft them back on to the first Paley-produced (and performed) backing track. Otherwise, I don't think the band seemed to have a lot of specific issues with the quality/content of what Paley was writing, especially since they probably didn't know whether a given element was from Andy or from Brian.

It's worth searching out the Cindy Lee Berryhill first-hand account of the group session for the Paley songs, from late 1995. You can pick up some of the passive-agreesive weird stuff going on with the band, probably having as much to do with how they felt about Brian as they did about Paley. At one point, Mike asks who wrote the material, with the general consensus being that it was far-fetched at that stage that Mike had no idea who had written "Soul Searchin'", especially considering, as I recall, both Don Was and Andy Paley were *in attendance* at the session.

I think the notion of doing things to placate Mike - especially in this specific period of the 1990's - is a component of the band's inner politics that would serve to explain a lot, or at least give some perspective if the question is asked "why did they do THAT?" on any number of their ridiculous appearances or projects.

Not to stir controversy but I also have had the opinion for a long time that the decision to offer Mike the name license so he could bill himself and whatever backing band he carried as The Beach Boys was an attempt to not only placate Mike, but effectively allow Brian to cut ties with Mike and stop dealing with him and his various demands, gripes, legal actions, etc. Unfortunately that continued to be an issue even after Mike was placated...but that's another story. Once Carl was gone, there wasn't as deep of a connection to the origins of The Beach Boys possible on stage, and I think allowing Mike to get that license knowing there would not be a "Wilson" on stage at a Beach Boys concert in the foreseeable future was an attempt to placate Mike and his wishes and say "ok, here's what you wanted, go out and do your thing...". Until Brian started touring again with what was a better band, a better selection of material, and a bigger draw for fans, Mike and his various bands floundered to put it mildly...and that right there can also be explained by noting there was no Carl or no one acting as Carl to demand the quality (or a reasonable fascimile thereof) of the musical presentation through rehearsing or just being there for quality control regarding the live shows. Brian and his band at the time were simply blowing Mike's "Beach Boys" and his corporate doppelganger bands out of the water. So Mike started in with the legal actions again.

Regarding Carl's stepping back a bit, it's sad but of course his health has to be factored in, and considered as just how much he was able to do. I believe when the whole failed project of bringing Sean O'Hagan in as a possible producer with Brian, and the Richard Branson deal, Carl had been receiving cancer treatments, which could have affected his involvement in various issues.

But I agree, even prior to that, Carl kind of checked out and it felt like Mike was being given the captain's hat he'd coveted for years in terms of steering the band.

Yeah-there is no doubt that 1990-1997 was really a series of missed opportunities.  The potential was there for something great-but somehow all we got was SIP and Stars and Stripes!!!! Orange Crate Art was the best LP from that stretch of time.  Such a shame that Carl's last recording years were wasted so greatly on mostly mediocre crap.  I do love "Like a Brother" though-it's a hard song to listen to now that he is gone without getting a little teary.

I agree about "Like A Brother" for sure Ian. I also think "I Wish For You" is even better to be honest, especially now as a father.

Regarding Carl's work on the "Beckley Lamm Wilson" album, while this wouldn't completely save the material, a ground-up re-recording pretty much re-doing everything but the vocals would help quite a bit.

I semi-rediscovered "They're Only Words" when it was playing on the SiriusXM channel last year; I think that one's probably the best one. That would have been a good one to partially re-record with the BBs backing Carl or something.

Even just a remix would help that Carl material to some degree. But re-recordings from scratch with more organic, acoustic instrumentation, and then with Carl's vocals grafted back on, would be interesting to hear and surely less "90s Adult Contemporary" sounding.

The best way to revisit that material would probably be to rework those Carl tracks along with other as-yet-unheard Carl demos/recordings. I've been convinced for quite some time now that his estate HAS to be sitting on some demos and/or other unreleased material that Carl worked on in the 80s and 90s. Obviously, there's some Carl-centric stuff in the BB vaults. But for one random example, I believe there's a post-BB '85 interview where Carl references having written a bunch of additional songs with Robert White Johnson. Surely some demos are around of that stuff. And who knows, maybe some of *that* stuff sounds kind of drippy and AC too. But there's gotta be some interesting Carl stuff to work with. Carl singing background on "This Is Elvis" can't be as good as it gets.

Thanks to Ian to create these cool interesting threads. :3d It brings goodness to BBs message boards.

Ian, besides the Beach Boys you're an Rolling Stones expert as well, iirc. Do you know if there are any pictures of the BBs and Stones during these times in the 60s when they shared a bill? I'm not talking about the ending of the T.A.M.I. show of course where all the acts got on stage together. Or any stories about them meeting?


EDIT: Damn! This was supposed to go into the "My website"-thread. Please ignore, I'll post it there.

I hear what you're saying, but I think even if this is done, it would be nothing more than a curio. First of all, even though the album was released after Carl's passing, I have to assume that his songs at the very least were probably at least close to finished (if not fully finished) before he died and therefore I think he got the songs right in his mind. So for someone, heck, even Brian, Mike and Al, going in an rejiggering one of these songs would kinda be disrespectful in my opinion unless it was just a straight up cover.

I just think that these "fix up this album or this project" thing that's been going on kind wanders into some weird territory. Like how last year Bowie's Never Let Me Down was somewhat re-recorded to sound "less '80s" because David had talked about from time to time, and had even had one of the tracks remixed for a compilation release in 2008. I've heard differing things about Bowie's involvement in actually getting the project off the ground, but at the least we know recording didn't start until long after Bowie's passing. And now that we have this different version, is it good? I suppose that's in the eye of the beholder. But the problem for me is that Bowie never got to hear any of these re-workings, so I can't take it as any more "definitive" than the original 1987 version. But perhaps it's not supposed to be definitive, but instead is just supposed to be another view of the material in different clothing as it were.

Now perhaps I'm misunderstanding, and if so, I do apologize. And I will say, if the guys ever did another album or something, or if there was some Carl rarities thing and they wanted to amend what I assume to be the somewhat unfinished "It Could Be Anything" (also known as "Where We Are") I think that would probably be okay, if they were given the okay by Carl's kids. But then I go back to this...aren't there better things to do? Probably.

Well, when it comes to unreleased material of Carl, I so wished there was a recording of him and his father-in-law Dean Martin. But I'm afraid that if they sang together there probably doesn't eist a recording

First time I really ever thought about the Carl/Dino possibility....that would be amazing! There has to be better stuff floating around in the vaults then this is Elvis.

I think releasing Carl material in general, especially as a “solo” type release, already puts it pretty firmly in the category of “curio.”

In terms of “Beckley Lamm Wilson” material, I was outlining a scenario where it’s pre-supposed someone is out to re-work the material. That’s a big “if” of course, but *if* that was a goal in any way, I think some of the spitballing I did in the previous post would achieve a good alternate way of listening to that material, and arguably better. But when it comes to trying to put out new Carl product, remixing and/or re-recording his “Beckley Lamm Wilson” tracks wouldn’t be at the top of my list. At best, they could reconstitute a few of those tracks to fill out a new Carl comp or something.   

While I would always want to honor Carl’s wishes as much as possible, as well as his estate’s wishes, I have to be frank and say I’m not hugely invested in doing either if it means *not releasing anything*, which seems to be the current setting they’re working under as far as Carl solo material, and I’m not so sure they’ve ever pushed hard on their end for achival BB releases, though they certainly seem to sign off on them.

We’ve already had *tons* of archival releases without Carl’s approval since his death. Indeed, in the case of putting out “Soulful Old Man Sunshine” in 1998, it was often pointed out that, sadly, we likely would NOT have gotten that song  *at all* had Carl still been alive, as he supposedly vetoed the song from the 1993 “Good Vibrations” set and didn’t want the song released. Similarly, all the versions of “Soul Searchin’” we’ve heard were constructed without Carl’s approval. (Though in that case it was constructed to conform to the best approximation of what it was believed Carl *did* want; I’m not knocking the work done on that song to reconstruct it; it’s what has saved the song most likely).

The estate has put next to zero effort into doing anything with Carl solo in the last 21 years since his death. I should of course point out the possibility that they truly have *nothing* to work with. But I’m *very* skeptical of that. I find it very hard to believe there isn’t an album (if not numerous) worth of demos or other Carl tracks that the estate could release in any number of forms, whether as-is, or with new overdubs, or both. But as far as I can tell, the estate signs off on BB releases, and has largely “gone along to get along” much like Carl did, continuing to support Mike’s license, and keep things streamlined and keep the revenue coming in. The only example I’ve heard where Carl’s estate put some extra effort into going *against* someone else to make a music release happen is when they voted *for* the “Love and Mercy” soundtrack a few years ago.

But even with something like “This Is Elvis”, it appears it wasn’t the estate that instigated that, but rather Jerry Schilling and Billy Hinsche. Why isn’t Carl’s estate trying to push for something, anything? They’re not even, as far as I know, trying to lobby BRI or Capitol/UMe to do a Carl-themed compilation of his best BB and solo tracks. Not even just digitally. The only things we’ve had to document Carl’s life is Billy Hinsche’s independently produced documentary (more a compilation of fond reminiscing from colleagues and friends and family), and that Carl biography from a few years ago which apparently got pretty much ZERO cooperation from most friends/family/colleagues.

We can’t even say how much the estate’s reticence on this topic is due to some sort of draconian edict Carl laid down prior to his death to not put *anything* out by him or *about* him, or if they’re just not motivated to do so. Either way, fans are getting older and dying off. Why isn’t more being released for the intrinsic historical and musical value it has? I mean, we still have fans hoarding 50 years of BB photographs and not sharing them. Why? We’re all going to be dead and then nobody will care.

I’ve digressed of course, but back to the issue of rejiggering things postmortem, I don’t think re-working Carl material that has already been released would be a huge component of doing some sort of Carl release. But I’m not opposed to it, and I don’t think doing so to some Carl tracks would be any sort of huge slippery slope to tarnishing his work or anything.

As to the question of “are there better things to do?”, I’d say not particularly when we’re talking about the Beach Boys. The touring groups are doing what they’re doing and that’s not really the heart of fandom in my mind any more. They’re not doing anything together in the studio, and the separate solo studio material hasn’t been particularly substantive of late. The archives are where it’s at now; that’s what keeps this whole thing going. And part of that is whatever is buried in Carl’s garage.

I don't know the in's and out's of the Beckley-Lamm-Wilson material as it isn't high on my interest list, which is why I'm asking and speculating:

Could it be that material hasn't or won't come out because of who owns and controls the songs and recordings? Carl's two trio-mates in the project have publishing deals of their own, with other labels. Maybe Carl and/or his estate never had the kind of control over the songs or ownership of the tapes enough to decide to do anything with them. We get a lot of Brian's material because he either paid for the sessions and has control of the tapes and songs, as do many of the Beach Boys tapes and songs fall under BRI control because that's how BRI did things, and how Brian and the BB's did things dating back to the 60's.

Not that I'd want to see something from Beckley-Lamm-Wilson get the "Free As A Bird" treatment ultimately because it's barely related to the Beach Boys and it's not Carl alone as the Lennon tapes had been (and the material isn't that strong to begin with IMO), but maybe due to those others involved the Wilson estate can't simply OK a release on their own.

There could very well be ownership issues with the “Beckley Lamm Wilson” material that would prevent Carl’s estate from independently doing anything with that material. I think deals could easily be struck if the interest from Carl’s estate or BRI was there to, say, graft new backing onto one of Carl’s tracks. But I would imagine the label and/or some sort of partnership owns that material.

But I haven't meant to overemphasize the "Beckley..." material. One or two songs would be worth rejiggering in my opinion (mainly "They're Only Words", which I think does deserve a bit of a relaunch in some form). Otherwise, it's a fine late era testament to Carl's vocal prowess, and not much else. 

What I’ve been talking about is privately-recorded Carl material. Not that that would necessarily be free of any potential claims from labels. But if there are, say, a bunch of 1987 or 1990 Carl home demos, I’d guess the estate would probably have full ownership/purview when it comes to that material.

The main point, though, is that nobody is pushing to do any of this stuff. I’ve always laid out the caveat that we don’t know what exists outside of the BRI vaults (and even then we obviously aren’t privy to everything). But I find it very hard to believe there’s nothing in the way of Carl material that the estate holds, and/or could track down with some leg work. Again, I point to the post BB’85 tracks Carl said he had written with Robert White Johnson. Johnson’s name is on one “Beckley Lamm Wilson” track, so there has to be other tracks. Maybe some have demos, others don’t. If Carl’s estate has absolutely *zip*, not a *single* cassette tape or reel or DAT or anything, no manuscripts or lyric pages or anything, then I guess I’d at least like to hear that from them. But if there *is* material, then let people hear it. Apart from the “Beckley….” album, we have very little post-1983/Youngblood Carl material. A few tracks on BB ’85, and a few leads on tracks after that.

Other than the Bowie content described in this thread, are there any other examples of an artist hating backing tracks/production of an album so much that they actually re-recorded elements of a released song (but left in the original vocals), and then newly released that new version? It's gotta be rare.

I know some Ozzy solo albums did this, but this was due to some contractual thing where they didn't want to pay off (or deal with) other musicians getting credit and money.

I just can't in a million years see it happening with the Like a Brother album. Firstly because IMO none of the backing tracks are offensively bad, some of them are just kinda mediocre. Secondly, it would seem that to do such would be to slap in the face the producers who originally worked on the album, literally like saying "your work sucked so much, we're going to go to huge efforts to re-record the backing tracks". Stranger things have happened, but it seems next to impossible for anything like this to happen, and that's not to even get into the idea that there wouldn't exactly be a ton of interest in a project like this either.

I know some people have suggested doing the same with the BB's SIP album.

I suppose if anything like that were to ever happen with SIP and/or Like a Brother, it would maybe be a random one-off for a single song, and marketed as a "reimagination" or something like that. Sort of how Sail Plane Song got (2) new versions where Mark/Alan made creative decisions to tweak and add sonic ideas to that song which was quite a minimal demo to start with. The idea (I assume) was to imagine what the song might have sounded like if Brian had spent more time on it in the studio in the late '60s. I happen to quite like those tweaked Sail Plane Song  versions, since they don't "replace" the original, which is available to listen to anytime. I find them interesting, I know some people aren't fans though.

It's quite different to think of redoing an entire already-released album in that way though. That would really seem to be more of a "statement" *against* the Like a Brother original album, and since that album was (partly) Carl's baby, I just don't see people making that decision for him, let alone getting the other artists on the album to go along with it too.

That said... clearly, people behind the scenes in BBs world (mainly Mark and Alan) seem to be thinking of new, creative and interesting ways to release "new" BBs material... either by digging REALLY deep and excavating stuff that wasn't known to exist before, or simply by thinking outside the box for ways to show the world that a particular song or fragment deserves some love, be it finding new ways to edit content to make more of a "song" out of what would otherwise be a tiny snippet.  I am a fan of this mindset for sure, and I'd happily welcome most any idea (including a Like a Brother remix/reimagination) if something like that were to happen.

Yeah, I think the ideas with the "Beckley...." material have probably been greatly overblown at this stage. What I envisioned was more along the lines of a new Carl collection put together by the estate that included demos and unreleased tracks, and then maybe, especially if they've already added any new elements to anything, *maybe* reworking one or two of the "Beckley..." tracks.

It would be something like the Beach Boys reworking "Daybreak Over the Ocean" for the TWGMTR album; just partly re-recording certain elements to integrate it into a new project.

As for artists *partially re-recording* old tracks, a semi-example would be Jeff Lynne, who prior to fully restarting ELO a few years ago, spent most of the 2000s doing ELO reissues where, from time to time, he'd take an unfinished ELO (or solo) track and re-record many (if not most or all) elements. He did this on several tracks on his 2000 "Flashback" ELO compilation ("Love Changes All", "Helpless", a few others), and also scattered bonus tracks across many album reissues; songs like "Surrender", "Latitude 88 North", "One Day", "Forecast", "Cold Feet", and others.

The BB's over the years occasionally did this, "Sherry She Needs Me" being a classic example. Some stuff on the 70s albums (and KTSA in 1980) features partly re-recorded elements; but often this was less a "redoing something they didn't like" scenario, and more just a case of *finishing* an incomplete track.

It's understandably not a super common thing, especially when it comes to doing this with *already-released* tracks. That's probably even more rare. There are examples. Tom Scholz, as I recall, inexplicably partly re-worked several tracks from the panned "Corporate America" Boston album on his more recent album. Bruce Johnston supposedly did this with "She Believes In Love Again" back during the TWGMTR sessions, but it was left off of course. George Harrison did this with "My Sweet Lord 2000", although that was more a case of having an "alternate" way to hear the song.

I guess I could see it with a one-off Like a Brother track perhaps, as unlikely as even that might be. It *could* turn out cool in theory.

Maybe the only feasable way for that to happen is if The BBs added backing vocals to the song, then there'd be a new "BBs add backing vocals to a late member's solo song" spin on it which could get some noteriety.

The thing is, I could also see something like that being considered bastardizing the song's intent by the artist, being as the songs were presumably done as side projects separate from The BBs for personal reasons known only to Carl. But again, who knows, seeing as Soulful Old Man Shunshine was released (specifically against Carl's wishes, although I assume he wasn't vehemently opposed to the song as opposed to slightly embarrassed by the flub).

In any case, I think there'd need to be some new interest in Carl's material in order for something like this to have a chance of happening. I feel like the Denny/Brian May collab only finally came out due to Bohemian Rhapsody being in the zeitgeist. If something specifically Carl-related were to capture the public's imagination for even a nanosecond, maybe it could convince the powers that be to do some projects like this and put them out.

Robert Palmer often did re-records for that reason, and even redid vocals on occasion. He released two albums that were purportedly compilations that we’re made up of redone tracks (the Addictions series)

Truth be told the originals were better, without fail

 Funny how that almost always seems to be the case with many artists, even with this band 😌

I think, in a scenario where the surviving BBs overdubbed "They're Only Words" or something like that, there would not be a huge outcry about sullying the sanctity of the "Beckley Lamm Wilson" project nor Carl's intent. It's just not material that's known enough for people to care. They could pitch it as a "new" song and most would never even know it had come out. Plus, the original version would always remain.

As we've been saying, they've done tons of stuff with Carl's voice without Carl's approval at this stage, and there hasn't been any fallout. They've dug up old tracks, live tracks, live video/film, they've done remixes, multiple live editions of the band have used his live vocal to back on stage, and so on.

But I think the only way we would ever get the BBs backing Carl electronically would be on a group album. I think TWGMTR was likely the last chance for that to happen, and I was a bit surprised they didn't try to integrate Carl into that album at all. Al tried to get "Waves of Love" on there and nobody went for it. They didn't try to use "Soul Searchin'" or something (which hadn't yet come out on "MIC" at that point). TWGMTR ended up being the one BB album Carl isn't on at all.

I was also quite surprised at that. I figure it's either some odd politics (because then maybe there'd be a push for including something with Denny too, and that just means less spotlight for an already unsatisfied-with-his-level-of-input Mike)... or Brian just wasn't emotionally in a space to be able to touch the idea of including his late brothers on a new project with a 10 foot pole. Or a combination of both. It must be. I'm sure they could have excavated some unreleaesed Carl vocal parts/fragments from some project if they really wanted to. I can't believe that there just wasn't anything usable. At minimum, even a wordless Carl or Denny background vocal or two could have been flown in and stuff built around that.

There seemed to be a relative time crunch to get the album finished before tour rehearsals started, so I suppose it makes sense they wouldn't have time to workshop some sort of hybrid song utilizing Carl fragments.

Some might recall this was probably one of several reasons the "Threetles" back in the 90s skipped working on a third Lennon song, "Now and Then", as it would have required a lot more patchwork and re-writing rather than just remaking finished songs and dropping Lennon's voice back into it.

A ready-made song would be easier, and Al offered a pretty solid song in "Waves of Love." Jason Fine's Rolling Stone article paints a pretty vivid picture of Brian balking, and it's unclear why. It's clear Brian didn't want to work on the song, and also clear that he didn't want to have any confrontation about it. But why he didn't want to do it isn't clear. Obvious guesses would include: Brian wasn't emotionally interested in working on a Carl vocal, or Brian just didn't like the song, or Brian thought Carl's vocal on the song was a bit wonky. I'd say the latter would hold some water; while the song is a catchy song that easily could have fit on TWGMTR, Carl's lead vocal has always sounded a bit weird. I don't know if it just wasn't recorded or mic'ed well when originally performed, or if the any sort of technical rejiggering (speed or pitch alteration to match a new key) made it sound odd. But that could have been at play.

Certainly, other guys were workshopping stuff during those sessions even if they had little chance of making it on the album, such as Bruce and Foskett working on "She Believes in Love Again."

Using that Al track could have knocked out three birds with one stone: Give Al a song on the album, feature Carl on something, and put a nice, catchy song on the album.

Other than that, I think "Soul Searchin'" would have made the most sense, but I suppose stylistically it wouldn't have been super in-step with the album.

I don't mind that they avoided an electronic "duet" and just did new tracks. But they essentially did to Mike's "Daybreak..." what Al wanted to do with "Waves of Love", which was to take an old but not ancient track and just overdub more BBs.

Oddly enough, I've always thought that Carl's vocal on Waves of Love sounded surprisingly good. As in, I literally don't recall hearing *anything* that sounded subpar about its fidelity or performance *whatsoever*. Maybe I missed something though? I need to go back and listen to it (aren't there like 3 released versions of that song? do any of them have differently-mixed Carl vocals?)... but my recollection is that Carl's vox were pretty much on point. Can you give any specific examples of where you think it sounded a bit off? I do recall other people also saying that Carl's vocal was a bit weird or subpar around the time of Waves' release, so I feel like I'm in the minority on my opinion! I do also recall hearing a few moments of the famous Carl vibrato in a way that gave me the feels.

Bottom line - if the BBs were willing to let some of the undeniably wonky 2012 vocals of theirs, as recorded by Joe Thomas, be prominently featured on the album, then I find it hard to believe that Carl's would've been deemed unusable. There are moments of what sound like digital editing glitches and autotune mistakes on the album, and moments where it felt like syllables from different takes were cobbled together to make a lead vocal (not that there's anything inherently "wrong" with doing that, but it should be a relatively transparent process if done properly) - on the album it sounded in some spots - Spring Vacation comes to mind - where Joe Thomas was working with not enough playlists of good vocal takes, and had to stitch together something usable, with not a ton of success at times.

I suppose another factor could be that even if Carl's vocals on Waves weren't recorded "properly" to the highest fidelity, that Carl's early 90s voice would still have been in better shape, and sounding younger than any other 2012 BBs voice (barring Al), and that it would have made Brian and Mike's vocals sound iffy by comparison. But I doubt that would have been the reason Waves was left out... I just keep going back to it either being some political thing, or the whole reunion thing *already* being an emotionally difficult thing for Brian dealing with Mike - who was clearly strutting around demanding input, and perhaps complaining about not enough songs being "original Wilson/Love cowrites, from the ground up"... and Brian just said "f*ck it" and didn't even want to deal with an Al song or figuring out the complicated ins and outs of including Carl.

Side note: damn shame that The Beatles didn't finish that song just due to time. That whole release should have been delayed in order for them to finish it. Talk about misplaced priorities (which is usually what The BBs have the market cornered on)  :lol

I think it was the right decision not to include any old recording of Carl on TWGMTR. Although at the time before the album was released I mentioned that I thought it would be cool to have him on there and maybe a finished "California slide" with Dennis, I have to disagree with myself in hindsight. TWGMTR was/is an artistic statement by the Beach Boys of 2011/2012. Otherwise it wouldn't show who they were and what they were capable of at that time. They included Dennis and Carl in the concerts (at least in those that featured the video screen) and that was a very nice tribute. Recycling old recordings on a new Beach Boys project wouldn't seem right.

But what if it not an entire old song by Carl/Denny, and rather some vocal pieces by them here and there that would've been flown in to a new song? I can see both sides of the argument for sure, and in part I get what you're saying... but I can't see any harm in including a new song with some unused vocal stuff from Carl/Denny.

I think Don't Fight The Sea was a great example of what could have been accomplished. Granted, there may not have been another tune like that sitting around. But something could probably have been put together. Maybe it was just - in part - a matter of not having enough time with an album deadline looming, as HeyJude suggested. But I think it was multiple factors involved.

Separately, if we're talking about Waves, while an older song than 2012, isn't exactly some super old tune from the early 70s with not a remotely similar sound to 2012. Waves is much closer by comparison IMO.

Also, if you're taking the side that TWGMTR was/is an artistic statement by the Beach Boys of 2011/2012, the inclusion of the old song Daybreak (and its old backing vocals from Mike's solo band) would seem to contradict that. It was an old Mike solo track with backing vocals by non-BBs that was shoehorned into the album. Waves was a song that from the ground up was a song (originally probably intended for The BBs, I think?) that - compared to Daybreak - has more legitimacy being on the album IMO since it included Carl.

Sure it's all a matter of opinion, but I don't see Daybreak as being representative of much of an artistic statement by the Beach Boys of 2011/2012. And sure, I guess you could say that about a few other tracks on the album which I think started out originally as being written as Brian solo tracks, but at least (I'm pretty sure) they were all entirely re-recorded for TWGMTR as opposed to Daybreak which literally uses an old track from a Mike solo project.

Daybreak already gets TWGMTR into somewhat piecemeal territory, although I think they did a pretty good job of that not being terribly obvious. It's a meh song, I don't hate it, and I don't think the song's production stands out like a sore thumb necessarily, but its inclusion breaks the "rule" about it being a 2012 BBs "statement", so I don't see how including some vocals as a tribute to Carl/Denny would be such a bad thing. Of course, if that would've been done, the way it would have been handled/executed would have to have been done delicately and with great care/taste. More in an Mark/Alan type of way. Not sure Joe Thomas would've been the right person for that from a technical standpoint. Just threw up a little in my mouth thinking of Joe adding autotune to Carl/Denny.

Yeah I agree with Rocker that I just think the group was Brian, Mike, Al, Bruce and Dave in 2011/2012 and That's Why God Made The Radio represented that. There were archive releases to hear Denny and Carl on. I think Brian and Joe (and Mike) were mostly just focused on creating what they thought a 2012 Beach Boys album should be, so likely there was little or no thought  of pulling this song or that song out of the vaults to get a Carl vocal on there. They picked the songs they wanted to work on and I think we got what we got.


Off topic I suppose, but the only reason "Now and Then" wasn't finished was George Harrison. Apparently he just didn't wanna do it. Time had nothing to do with it.

Not to veer off topic, but "Now and Then" is a more complicated story than that. Harrison didn't like the song, and that probably was the main reason it wasn't worked on further. But the time issue was a factor as well. Jeff Lynne and engineer Marc Mann had actually prepped full "temp track" band performances of both "Real Love" and "Now and Then", so it's true that they did the heavy lifting as far as time-consuming arrangement on "Now and Then" prior to the "Threetles" sessions resuming in 1995. But even with a full temp track to work with, "Now and Then" would have required significantly more time put in to further arrangement and especially writing a lot of new lyrics.

I think Harrison found the song to be a dirge, and then it was easy to move to "Real Love" because they liked the song more and *also* because it was a fully finished song that didn't even require a few lines of new lyrics the way "Free As A Bird" had. So I think time was a factor, as they only blocked out a specific amount of time for each of those sets of "Threetles" sessions.

Harrison not liking the song was ultimate the reason they never came *back* to the song afterwards, although I think Harrison cashed his paychecks on the "Anthology" by the end of 1995 and no longer had motivation or reason to continue to work with McCartney on more tracks, so I don't think he was interested in working on *any* third "Threetles" song.

To bring this back around to Carl and the Beach Boys, there was a much tighter time crunch on the TWGMTR album in 2011/2012. While Brian had his bag of Brian/Joe songs, and Brian had cut some of the backing tracks in Nashville before the album sessions proper actually began, they still had to cut vocals for a ton of songs and also some new backing tracks, and have it all wrapped up before April of 2012. The band was amazingly productive in that span of time, with allegedly around two dozen songs tracked to varying degrees, with Mike having time to add lyrics to several songs, and then all the guys adding vocals. Several songs were cut from scratch (e.g. "Beaches in Mind").

Much like the "Threetles", I think nobody was into "Waves of Love" enough to set aside that extra time to do it. Just more examples of Al being rather marginalized. But they had presumably *multiple* versions of the song they could have worked with, and they could have gone the easy route and given it the "Daybreak..." treatment of just taking Al's finished track, and then just adding a layer of BB backing vocals.

I'm not torn up about the song not being on the BB album; it made it out (in three versions!) on Al's reissues in 2012.

With “Waves of Love”, my first impression upon hearing it (and the first version I heard was the “digital download” version with Carl’s vocal more isolated) was that Carl’s vocal just sounded *off*. Not his actual performance so much, but the way it sounded. Once I heard the (apparently accidentally released) “CD” version, which is the one that sounds looser and more like a live soundcheck, it all made somewhat more sense.

On that “CD” version, Carl’s vocal is mixed in with several other voices, essentially singing harmony. I don’t know if that was all done “live” on that soundcheck, as some stuff even on that looser version is overdubbed. Either way, I don’t think Carl initially really had a “lead” vocal part on the song, he was simply a prominent voice in a multi-part stack singing those choruses.

Cut to the “digital download” version, and a few things are clear: Most everything has been completely re-recorded in a more dry “studio” setting/sound, the song is in a *different key*, and Carl’s voice is now isolated. So they had to have taken Carl’s voice out of that multi-part stack, and made sure it conformed to the key of the new recording of the song. So they either had to alter the key/pitch of Carl’s vocal, or take Carl’s part out of that initial stack and then make the new recording in a key that allowed for use of that vocal.

I think what you hear is essentially an isolated Carl vocal harmony part, possibly if not probably recorded on stage during a live show soundcheck. That would account for the timbre being a bit off for what is being presented as a “lead” vocal, and would also account for the slightly odd fidelity of the recording.

I think Al just had to do a bit of forensic excavating to make Carl more than just one of several harmony vocalists on the song, and that led to the slightly muted/muffled/tentative sound of the recording, and *may* have accounted for part of why others such as Brian weren’t enthusiastic about using the song.

But Carl’s vocal isn’t bad, and the song is quite good. I think it works well on Al’s album.

That's absolutely correct. "Daybreak" sticks out and is obviously an exception that was added because Mike - I assume - otherwise wouldn't do the album. But there's no need to add even further songs and make the album more of a collage than a cohesive piece of work. The Beach Boys in form of Brian as their producer and boss decided that this stuff is what the Beach Boys 2012 should record and release. Therefore it doesn't even matter when the song(s) were written, but it would be different if there was an old recording of Carl or Dennis used because instead of creating something new together, all the other guys could've done was sing around the old recording and hope that it kinda fits.

BTW I like "Daybreak", Mike's feeling for a great hook comes out on this one. And once again, Al's voice takes the song to another level. But I wished they would've recorded it from scratch. David's voice would fit very well in place of Christian Love's imo.


Anyway, that's my opinion and of course everyone is entitled to his/her own. Mine has changed as I mentioned above, so I can understand the idea of using recordings by Carl and Dennis. But I've come to a different point of view.

I’m sure we all have our own standard for what would have or could work on a “new” album in terms of using old tracks.

My personal feeling was that while I didn’t need any vintage Carl tracks on TWGMTR, using something of Carl’s recorded in the later era (meaning the 90s mainly) as a basis for a new recording would have worked okay in the context of TWGMTR. A number of the songs on the album were written at least partially in the 90s, and Mike’s “Daybreak” was recorded in the early 2000s I’m guessing (2004 or earlier I would assume).

Using a 1970 Dennis lead would be a bit more of a novelty and would stick out more. I think that would be a project either for an archival BB package or some sort of solo Dennis comp. Same for older Carl material.

The 60s/early 70s Carl or Dennis voices are very different from their later voices. So a “Sunflower” era Carl vocal on TWGMTR would have sounded supremely weird. A 1995 or so vocal, not so much. But again, it’s all arbitrary.

While, again, I didn’t really feel like I needed Carl representation on TWGMTR, something from his vocally from the 90s would have been fine, especially considering he had been on every album prior.

Just adding a few more factors to the non-appearance of "Now And Then":

Yes, George was not a fan of the song, and a lot of those details came from Paul. According to Paul, George was a "no" vote out of the three. But they had at least tried recording a backing track to it, and that's as far as it got session-wise.

But also, remember at the time of Anthology they had reported one of the Lennon tracks from cassette was too noisy, and was beset with tape hiss and other distortion/noise which they could not remove using 1994/95 technology as well as they did with the two released tracks, which is why some reports at the time said it wasn't used. That track was "Now And Then".

And also, a point which can be confirmed by hearing Lennon's tapes, Now And Then was the least "finished" of the tunes, which meant the other members would have to write more new parts and entire new sections to fill it out and make a workable song rather than a sketchpad idea of a section here or there. George in particular balked at that, I think, because they'd essentially be writing more of the tune than Lennon had written to give it that song flow, and perhaps I agree on that point because some fans would say the "Lennon" part of the the tune was less than the 1994 contributions from the others. At least the other two struck a balance where the crux of the tunes was still Lennon's demos.


Interesting postscript is that McCartney had been teasing the notion that he wanted to finish Now And Then in several interviews after Harrison's passing, basically do what they did in '94 without George. I don't know what if anything ever came of that, or if it was just talk on an idea that hasn't developed.


My own thoughts re: Carl's tunes: The "Threetles" songs that were released worked because they sounded like Beatles tunes and they sounded like something Lennon would have brought to the band had they been able to get together (or as they envisioned it, *when* they were still together). The Carl Wilson solo material, or even some of the unused BB's tunes don't sound like classic Beach Boys tunes, and that may have hampered the ability to market such a project to regular audiences outside the BB's core fanbase...

I agree. Would certainly have been nice to have Carl/Denny on it, although their absence doesn't diminish the good/great parts of the album. It was *always* going to be a very mixed bag type of affair.  The album TWGMTR has some great stuff about it, some bad stuff about it, it's a very uneven piece of art in its current form, and I'm sure it'd also be a mixed bag even if it had a well-done Carl/Denny inclusion or two. Yet it could certainly still have been elevated.

The album does hit some undeniable emotional highs that give me (and many others, I'm sure) the feels, while unfortunately a number of other tracks like Beaches in Mind, IMO, are pretty vapid and soulless, relatively speaking. I know it's the dichotomy of this band having "fun" songs and also having "emotional" or "sensitive" songs, and this album has both I suppose. And the autotune being problematic is a whole other topic, of course. Being rushed certainly couldn't have helped the album either.

I guess I'm just a sucker for when this band - in a sincere fashion - does something in a song, in a well-done manner, where the band members either reflect on the past (From There to Back Again), or even add a reference/homage to an earlier work (I may be in the minority on this, but I absolutely love Carl's You Still Believe in Me vocal part at the end of Brian's Back since his voice was in full bloom, even though I pretty much completely dislike everything else about that song, and most other homages to earlier songs wretchedly fall flat in the band's catalog, see Summer in Paradise the song or Smart Girls)... and I guess I'm also a sucker for when the band did Do it Again in 2011, where the whole "meaning" of the song became more meaningful to me, even if it was all just smoke and mirrors.  

I suppose because there's been *so* much strife within this band, it's nice when the band seemingly puts the bad stuff of the past aside, and does material that has a vibe of "togetherness", reminding listeners that this was/is a family band - which is another reason why it was touching to see the Carl/Denny homages during C50. When Brian bravely sings about his personal demons or his pain on any number of his solo tracks such as Melt Away, or the BBs classic 'Til I Die, it just takes the music to a whole other level. I know many others feel this way. The feeling of brotherly love, or one brother helping/lifting up another brother with Carl's vocals assisting Denny on Denny's solo tune It's Not Too Late (which may have simply been included since Denny couldn't hit those notes anymore) packs an emotional punch in a big way.

So coming from that mindset, personally, I feel that it was a giant missed opportunity to not include even a bit of Carl on TWGMTR for similar reasons... if only to imply that this was/is a family band where all Wilson brothers were a big part of it. Again, we can only speculate as to why this wasn't done. But I think the reason(s) are very likely limited to a small handful of potential reasons discussed earlier in this thread, or maybe a combination of them. That said, I can of course also understand the idea of an artist or band wanting an album to stand on its own, and be an artistic statement of then and there. I get that. However, I really don't see the end product of this album as being from a place where that was a "mandate" by Brian. I just think that there were already too many politics on the table, and it was easier to avoid tough stuff.

One more side note: I feel that David Marks' cover of Denny's Cuddle Up (which should be sought out for anyone who hasn't heard it) would have made a truly remarkable and touching tribute to Denny. If that had been included on TWGMTR, it would have easily stolen the show, or at minimum been regarded in similar esteem to the Life Suite material. It's *that* good a cover. That's the type of Carl/Denny tip of the hat type of stuff that the album suffers for not having. If only...

  

To paraphrase what someone said back in 2012, the TWGMTR album was much better than it had any right being. That’s really just another way of saying “Whoa, I assumed it wouldn’t be very good, but it’s actually pretty good!”

It’s an anachronism in the BB catalog in a number of ways. It sounds nothing like the most recent BB albums (though those were pretty old), it’s the first album where Brian so heavily dominates writing since “Love You”, it’s missing Carl, it has David Marks on it, the production is generally sort of “soft” for lack of a better way to put it, though it avoids the easy listening/AC smoothness of “Imagination”, it was full of political concessions and backroom negotiations, and I could go on and on. All that factored in, it’s a surprisingly enjoyable and *relatively* cohesive listen.

There’s really not an out-and-out *bad* song on it, and it had been awhile since I could say *that* about a BB album. Mike’s “Daybreak” is innocuous, and Al’s backing vocals definitely punch it up. A few of the Brian tunes like “Private Life….” are a bit slight. There’s too much Foskett in a lot of the vocal stacks. The autotune *is* distracting and unfortunate. But top to bottom, most of the songs are solid, the production is solid if lacking much contrast or extra punch (which is why I don’t mind “Beaches in Mind”). Even some of the slight stuff like “Spring Vacation” is undeniably catchy. The ending suite is great. Sure, it sounds a bit like “Rio Grande” in that some of the fragments sounds kind of smushed together in not the most organic way. But all the fragments are good, and it’s not that they don’t fit together still.

If nothing else, the album answers a question I had occasionally had in the preceding couple of decades: What would it sound like if the other BBs sang on a Brian solo album? TWGMTR is the answer to that question. It’s interesting (in a good way) to hear Mike sing on a Brian/Joe Thomas 2000s production.

I don’t know if anything on the album reaches true greatness; the first two tracks come close, and the ending suite is a high mark unquestionably.

I can’t think of a *ton* of stuff featuring Carl that would have worked well on the album. I think a slightly remixed “Soul Searchin’” could have fit. A re-recording of “They’re Only Words” with Carl’s vocals grafted back on maybe. Al’s “Waves of Love” with Carl would have worked. After that, I don’t know what was or is “in the can” as far as Carl lead vocals. Grabbing stuff like the bland “Where We Are” from the early 80s (or whatever the title is), I wouldn’t have advocated for that. But who knows what else is lurking in the vaults from the 80s and 90s. Does “Grace of My Heart” exist? “Down by the Pier?” That song could be great, or it could suck. I have no idea. I always liked Carl’s little vocal intro on the incomplete “Dancing the Night Away”, but I never liked the rest of the song that much (and it was sorta kinda remade as “How Could We Still Be Dancing” anyway), so that one would have required “Now and Then” levels of reformatting.

But interesting stuff to chew on.

With “Now and Then”, I think they just liked “Real Love” more and Harrison’s blah attitude towards “Now and Then” coupled with his quickly growing tired of the whole project (he only signed on for the whole project due to the HUGE infusion of cash it offered) dictated they move on the quicker option.

As previously mentioned, Jeff Lynne and Marc Mann in late 1994, after the “Free As A Bird” sessions (which, contrary to some reports at the time, was not a “digital” patchwork but was in fact all done in the analog realm, with the “Threetles” essentially re-recording the song and then Lynne literally hitting the “record” button to drop Lennon’s vocal back in only in the spots where they needed it), convened to do extensive work on both “Now and Then” and “Real Love.” There’s a great, detailed article/interview with Marc Mann about this in the old “Good Day Sunshine” magazine. They spent about two weeks, and *most* of that time was spent working on “Now and Then.” They both highlighted *that* song as the more likely candidate. Then, with only a few days left, they went ahead and also tackled “Real Love” (which was also problematic as they only had Lennon’s double-tracked demo with a tambourine/rhythm box prominent throughout).  

In the case of both “Now and Then” and “Real Love”, Lynne and Mann first dumped the stuff to digital and cleaned up the tapes as best as they could, and then did *extensive* editing (which frankly amounted to more than editing and was more in the realm of re-arranging and arguably partially *re-writing*) on the songs. They added full band instrumentation to both songs as fully-formatted “temp tracks” that would be ready for the “Threetles” to work on. (I’d love to hear *those* tracks!).

So Lynne and Mann likely wrote that new “bridge” interlude to “Real Love” that made it onto the record, and presumably did the re-arranging on “Now and Then” such that it would have required the “Threetles” mainly to write new lyrics and lead melodies for the sections.

So a lot of the work on “Now and Then” was already done before Harrison even entered the picture. Still, it certainly would have required more *new* work than simply writing a few new bridge lines for “Free As A Bird.” I can envision that beyond Harrison already not liking “Now and Then”, he probably loathed trying to write new stuff with McCartney. Even writing the few new lines on “Free As A Bird” had apparently involved some tension. And the small amount of chord alterations they made to FAAB also led to some awkwardness; this is even seen briefly in the small amount of studio footage they released.

Harrison had a pretty sardonic/sarcastic attitude through a lot of the project. You can tell McCartney is trying *really hard* to make the sessions, the interviews, and jam sessions during that project gel and have some camaraderie. I think Harrison seemed to almost relish being difficult and borderline at times antagonistic towards Paul. Considering this comes through in the *scant* available footage, I can only imagine it was more so during the project as a whole.

Rumors have abounded since then that McCartney has *already finished* “Now and Then” on his own and has been sitting on it. Normally this sort of thing sounds silly, but I think it is somewhat possible. He played some version of the song to producer David Kahne.

As for Carl, while integrating some of his “solo” stuff into a group project may have been difficult, I think some of his “solo” stuff wasn’t too far off from the likes of “It’s Gettin’ Late”, or “Where I Belong”, or even “Full Sail.” So it was doable. The TWGMTR album already only partially sounded like a “Beach Boys” we were familiar with. It was at times very much a Brian solo affair with the other guys singing, which I’m fine with. There are true “Beach Boys”, non-Brian-solo moments, like the vocal intro to “Pacific Coast Highway.” But a 90s-style Carl solo track with new embellishment wouldn’t have been (theoretically, of course) too out of place on a BB album.

The paragraph of your post in bold...someone's information is off and there's a contradiction. Check out what Jeff Lynne himself says here in this article from '09 teasing a possible McCartney-led release of "Now And Then":

According to ELO star Jeff Lynne, who produced the sessions, they merely worked on Now And Then for one afternoon.

“It was one day – one afternoon, really – messing with it,” he said in 1995. “The song had a chorus but is almost totally lacking in verses. We did the backing track, a rough go that we really didn’t finish.

“It was sort of a bluesy sort of ballad, I suppose, in A minor. It was a very sweet song; I liked it a lot, and I wished we could have finished it.”

McCartney has occasionally talked about wanting to complete Now And Then and perhaps referred to John’s original title for the song, I Don’t Want To Lose You.


Jeff Lynne says something far different than what was said in the GDS piece, the difference between working on the tune for one afternoon versus most of two weeks. Which is it?

Article link: https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/5697/Beatles-back-to-where-they-once-belonged (https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/5697/Beatles-back-to-where-they-once-belonged)

Lynne's reference to "one afternoon" working on "Now and Then" refers to the 1995 "Threetles" session at McCartney's studio.

They indeed only spent a short time working on it once they all convened at McCartney's studio around February of 1995.

The pre-production work on both "Now and Then" and "Real Love" I referenced previously was done by Jeff Lynne and Marc Mann back in Los Angeles, without any of the Beatles present.

I can't find the full unedited "Good Day Sunshine" article online, but I found some excerpts from two articles focusing on the songs from GDS:

"[This song] goes by the working titles of both Missing You and Now And Then, based on the fundamental lyrics of the song ('Now and then, I miss you.'). 'You can tell he's written it to Yoko,' notes [Marc] Mann, 'but it sort of fit right in with this whole reunion thing. Almost like sometimes he misses the other guys, and sometimes they miss him.' [...] Around December 1994 [Marc Mann began work on the second Beatle reunion track]. Sworn to secrecy ('I couldn't even tell my wife!'), Mann began working with Lynne on the recordings. 'We had about two weeks, as Jeff was going in January [of 1995] back to England to work with the guys again, so we had to work fast,' he says. The main goal for the work was to assemble a ready-to-record basic track for the group to work to. 'We needed to do enough things to it so that the rest of the group could say, Yes, we can record this,' notes Mann. This meant improving the sonic quality of the original tape, as well as 'steadying' the tempo, to make a consistent beat, as well as, again, emphasizing Lennon's vocal above the piano. 'It's a very natural thing,' says Mann, 'for somebody just sitting at a piano or a guitar and singing into a tape recorder to play in an uneven tempo; there's no drummer or metronome to help keep time. But one of Jeff's production goals was to have a really steady, strong tempo.'

Oddly enough, the first song the two tackled was Now And Then, not Real Love, the song ultimately released. [...] So Lynne assumed, for the moment, that Real Love would be set aside, perhaps not even used, due to its problematic nature. Now And Then was loaded onto the computer (i.e. the contents of the tape were converted to a digital record and stored on the computer's hard disk), and the two went to work. The first matter at hand was noise reduction. Using a couple of software products from Digidesign called ProTools and another called DINR (Digidesign Intelligent Noise Reduction), Lynne and Mann went about 'cleaning up' the recording. The noise reduction comes into play to take out the tape hiss apparent on the recording. ...this was removed from the track using the DINR software. In addition, a 60-cycle hum [created by the alternating current of the wall outlet and recorded on the cheap tape recorder] had to be taken out of the recording. ...In addition to the noise-reduction work mentioned above, the 'signal-to-noise ratio' was enhanced, to boost the amount of signal to make it stronger than the inherent tape noise. And, as mentioned, Lennon's vocal was enhanced through equalization-- all of this without changing the quality of his voice. Marc notes one element that seemed to carry the work through: 'What made this do-able were these beautiful lyrics and wonderful Lennon melody.' Well said. Time correction and editing were easily achieved using the computer software, once again, thanks to the 'non-destructive editing' capability of the system. Remember, this means that Mann and Lynne could try out moving pieces of the song around, for instance, and if what they tried didn't work out, the original recording was still available to make another try. 'One of the great things about this was that we were doing the work there in Jeff's house,' notes Mann. 'We would get up and go into the kitchen to have some tea, to get away from the computer screen and all the numbers and data, and just listen to John singing this beautiful little song in the other room. It always brought a grin to our faces. And the good thing about getting up and away from the work was that we could then listen and hear the work we had done, and note anything that needed a little fixing.' ...More of the moving-things-around had to do with the actual arrangement of the song.

Since Lynne and Mann knew The Beatles would be adding in most of the instruments heard on the final recording, the only parts of the original tape that were truly essential were the parts where John was singing. 'We really didn't need some of the piano instrumental in between vocal phrases,' says Mann. Frequently Lennon had added in an additional bar or two of playing in a certain passage which was more of an improvisational nature. And additional task which Lynne and Mann took upon themselves was to prepare a 'temp track' of musical instruments added onto the Lennon recording, in order to give a rough idea to The Beatles what the song might sound like with additional instruments. Utilizing Opcode's StudioVision sequencing software, they laid down some digital drums, bass, piano and strings, playing along with the edited digital version of John's vocal. The work demo was then played for the group. The final product of all of Lynne and Mann's work was a two-track digital tape, with the adjusted/cleaned-up Lennon recording on one track, and a 'click' track, or metronome track, on the other, to provide a strong audible guide for Ringo to add his drum rhythms to. This was then brought to Paul's studio in Sussex and transferred ot a 24-track reel-to-reel analog tape machine, to which other instruments were added on the remaining tracks (in fact, a second 24-track machine was 'synched-up' with the first to provide 48 tracks for recording). As mentioned, most of the two weeks available for this prep work was spent on Now And Then."

Matt Hurwitz (August 1996 - Studio Magic: Turning Lost Lennon Tapes Into Beatle Treasure article in Good Day Sunshine #80)

Regarding the edits and sequencing of "Real Love," Jeff Lynne was the producer. We made decisions together and presented them to The Beatles. If they liked them, they were kept; if they wanted changes, they were made. "Real Love" was really a "quick afterthought" (i.e. we worked on preparing "Now & Then" for two weeks and then were just doing "Real Love" for the last 2 1/2 days before Jeff went to England; it was just "try a second one"). With "Now & Then," we were creating the method and trying to see what could be done with the material and technology we had.

As for the pitch, as Jeff Lynne says: "The Beatles VSO'd (Variable Speed Operation) all the time for specific effect - they were the original tape manipulators." Also the universe provided us with the cassette as it was. We cleaned it up and arranged it, and it seemed to work really well. We did try changing pitch and it made the song seem less "bright." And as pitch is a relative thing, it didn't really seem to matter if it was at a concert frequency. Most people don't notice and don't care. What you do hear is the character and tone of the vocal and the music around it. And the pitch was not a whole step sharper. It was in between, maybe a quarter tone up.

In short, yes, they liked it the way it was, and as Paul and George had their instruments tuned up a bit, they liked the sound and were very excited about the song. Paul liked how his vocal blended in with the "prepared vocal," and George could hardly contain his enthusiasm for the song. On playback after they recorded a run through, Ringo said "It sounds like The Beatles..."

As for how "Now & Then" sounds, well, think of a White Album cut blended with Abbey Road type orchestra, a bit of added drums for a beat, stronger piano, acoustic guitar in spots, and a mockup sample orchestra. And by the way, one of the things that takes so much time is on this one we kept the Lennon piano between phrases, and clocked the whole thing to a steady beat - each vocal phrase, and each piano phrase, which was slightly manipulated to match a solid tempo - which is one of the things that keeps "Real Love" sounding good too.

As for John Lennon's intentions, that's a whole philosophical area that can be discussed forever. Did he ever intend the world to hear these at all? If he had, would he have recorded them better? With an in-tune piano? I think he would be pleased with "Real Love" as it was released on Anthology 2, and i'm grateful to have been a part of helping make that happen.

Maybe someday "Now & Then" will see the light of day. I hope so, since I'd love to hear it completed as well. and in the light of the passing of Linda McCartney recently, hearing Paul sing the chorus along with John would be very moving:

"Now and then, I miss you......"

Marc Mann

From Good Day Sunshine magazine, #83.

That explains it, thanks for the info! Lynne was talking about something else, his comments were misleading.

I notice you brought up "Soul Searchin'" a few times, but of course you have to remember that Brian had already issued a version on 2004's Gettin' In Over My Head? While that version is easily my least favorite of the versions I've heard, I can't imagine a scenario would have went back to that in 2011/2012 to put on a new album.

As far as "Baywatch Nights" (or "Dancin' the Night Away".....whatever the official title is) I honestly was kinda expecting it to be on the 2012 Beach Boys album after the album was announced. It seemed like an obvious way to get Carl on the album in a smooth way and in fact was an unfinished Wilson/Love song from when they last worked together. I thought Carl's vocal was beautiful, the backing track was rockin' and I really do love the "somewhere out in Malibu" group vocal. But, alas it was not to be. Maybe because it was forgotten by Brian and everyone else, or maybe because wasn't part of the Joe Thomas material, or who knows. Perhaps it was looked at and even worked on. Maybe we will find out one day.

Lastly, I know we don't know much about "Down by the Pier" except one thing: according to the "Wilson Project" book Brian was not a big fan of this song of Carl's and therefore that is probably one reason why it's remained stuck in obscurity.

McCartney and Lynne both spoke briefly about “Now and Then” in interviews around the time the Anthology launched in 1995/96. There wasn’t much detail, and I think that was down to Lynne not doing very many interviews in general, McCartney being asked about a lot of other stuff, and probably everybody not wanting to super emphasize the track that *didn’t* get finished. Plus, I suspect they were trying to be a bit diplomatic about not just saying it was mainly George who put the kibosh, as he was of course still alive at that time.

Years later, for the Jeff Lynne “Mr. Blue Sky” documentary, McCartney was more blunt (though not seeming troubled and really seeming more bemused than anything else) about Harrison not liking the song. He even joked he would get with Jeff and finish the song.

I don’t think Lynne was trying to obfuscate when discussing the song; he was just detailing the work the actual full group had done on the track, while probably knowing that he shouldn’t go into excessive detail at that time. I remember way back then being surprised he and McCartney went into *any* detail about the song, with McCartney going so far as to sing a bit of the song in an interview. It’s worth noting that unlike “Free As A Bird” and “Real Love”, “Now and Then” had *not* circulated among Lennon collectors until right around late 1995 or early 1996 as I recall. So it was extra mysterious.

I don’t think the details about the pre-production were published until later in 1996 as I recall, and it was relatively buried in that Marc Mann interview that was featured in a briefly-relaunched “Good Day Sunshine” magazine that, as I recall, only lasted a few issues over the course of a few years.

There was a lot of weird misinformation around that time, with false reports of a Harrison/McCartney composition called “All for Love”, a weird garbled detail turning into a third reunion song called “Shadow”, and probably some other stuff.

I was only mentioning "Soul Searchin'" because it was/is probably the best and most complete unreleased (at that time) Carl lead vocal related to a "Beach Boys" track that had been recorded in his final years.

Brian had indeed released his not-so-great solo duet version, but I don't think that would have precluded inclusion on a BB album. I just think that stuff wasn't on their radar when doing TWGMTR. Other factors dictated it wasn't included as well I'm sure.

I feel like Soul Searchin' had quite a bit of baggage at the point they were making TWGMTR.

I remember when GIOMH came out, I was thinking that relations with Brian and Mike must've been at a really low point for the decision to be made to purposely wipe perfectly good BBs backing vocals on that song, to be replaced by a wall of Brians. That felt like an extra "f-you" move aimed at The BBs, namely Mike.

It seems there was a concerted effort to try and present that as a Brian + Carl duet song (not a "BBs" song), and I have to think that the idea of going back in 2012 to either re-record new BBs backing vocals, or to reinstate the previously-wiped BBs backing vocals would just be a bit of a prickly subject that understandably was avoided as the song was not touched.