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Smiley Smile Stuff => General On Topic Discussions => Topic started by: NateRuvin on May 20, 2019, 11:09:08 AM



Title: Some recent thoughts/theories on C50 and possible potential reunions....
Post by: NateRuvin on May 20, 2019, 11:09:08 AM
With the rumors of another reunion around the corner, and having had a few years to reflect on 2012 and the following years, I've recently been thinking that there had to have been more going on behind the scenes regarding the demise of C50, and the future of the touring band, than we're aware of.

C50 was obviously going well, from an outsider's perspective, when it was announced the band would again part ways. The tour was making money. Audiences were thrilled. It really seemed like The Beach Boys were back! And then boom, we're back to the M&B vs BW touring operations, seemingly overnight. Many people, including Brian, Al, and lots of us assumed it was simply because Mike prefers that way of touring over the reunion. Weather its due to financial compensation, creative control, spotlight, etc... to many of us, it became perfectly clear that Mike must just prefer to tour on his own, as opposed to with the former core members. The way he described C50 in his book kinda makes it seem that way. Or when he responds to questions about the demise of C50 by saying "Brian has his thing, I have mine". But what if that's not the case?

I have recently wondered that the reason C50 ended was the suits (BRI maybe?) predicted that  once the thrill of the reunion died, maybe the overall excitement would too. They obviously couldn't keep marketing their tour as the 50th reunion band, and eventually just The Beach Boys. Once it was a given that the core members would be onstage, no longer something that felt finite, maybe management and/or the group was worried  they wouldn't continue to sell out these big places, and to prevent embarrassment, made the call that only Mike and Bruce would continue touring as The Beach Boys until the 60th reunion, where there would again be excitement to see the core members together again. Now, it might be shocking to think that BRI would plan on there being a 60th reunion, but not really, considering neither Mike nor Brian (Al, Bruce, Dave, Blondie, etc) have expressed a desire to retire.

Maybe I'm entering conspiracy territory here, but it seems plausible to me.

I've also been thinking that a The Beach Boys reunion would probably be the best thing for Brian's touring career right now. So much pressure would be taken off of him with Mike being a frontman, not to mention having Al, Bruce, and Dave. He could play piano, sing as much as he wants, or just listen to the music. But the difference is he wouldn't be center stage at a "Brian Wilson" concert, where people are there to see him. He'd once again be a member of a band, able to comfortably be a team player again. Leave the front man shtick to Mike who has that sh*t refined to a tee, or even Al, who has proven himself to be quite the capable frontman in his recent years touring with Brian.

Thoughts?


Title: Re: Some recent thoughts/theories on C50 and possible potential reunions....
Post by: Rocker on May 20, 2019, 11:27:09 AM

I have recently wondered that the reason C50 ended was the suits (BRI maybe?) predicted that  once the thrill of the reunion died, maybe the overall excitement would too. They obviously couldn't keep marketing their tour as the 50th reunion band, and eventually just The Beach Boys. Once it was a given that the core members would be onstage, no longer something that felt finite, maybe management and/or the group was worried  they wouldn't continue to sell out these big places, and to prevent embarrassment, made the call that only Mike and Bruce would continue touring as The Beach Boys until the 60th reunion, where there would again be excitement to see the core members together again.




I don't think so. The offers for BIG concerts were in, like Madison Square Garden on New Year's Eve etc. And they were also offered a deal for a new Beach Boys album (Brian already began writing songs, I seem to remember the intro to "Our special love" was planned for the Beach Boys as Ray Lawlor mentioned on this board) so the idea was to try to gain momentum.
And regarding the "all the core members being onstage": For almost twenty years I hear in the media now that Brian Wilson is finally back touring and giving concerts.... So yeah, I don't think the attention for the Beach Boys back together with Brian Wilson would end that abpruptly. They were just starting in 2012


Title: Re: Some recent thoughts/theories on C50 and possible potential reunions....
Post by: NateRuvin on May 20, 2019, 11:31:43 AM
Very true. I suppose I was simply playing devil's advocate, and challenging the status quo belief of the end of C50... food for thought.

Thinking about those huge concert offers makes me sad. How cool would it have been to see the guys up there?? Well, there's still time....

Do you guys think Al's hinting at a reunion or something of the sorts a few months ago at one of his storyteller shows was simply something Al said, hinting at something else, that we've just over analyzed? Or can we assume there might be truth to his sentiment, considering Al's tendencies?


Title: Re: Some recent thoughts/theories on C50 and possible potential reunions....
Post by: Emdeeh on May 20, 2019, 12:44:01 PM
I thought Al was referring to a Family and Friends reunion.


Title: Re: Some recent thoughts/theories on C50 and possible potential reunions....
Post by: myonlysunshine on May 20, 2019, 01:41:21 PM
I was the one who posted about Al's hints at a possible reunion (http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,25616.msg646799.html#msg646799). I do want to note that while Al was extremely vague with his hint (undoubtedly on-purpose), he specifically mentioned working with Brian's daughters this year separately from what he was hinting at. I interpreted Al's hints as alluding to a Beach Boys reunion, and I wasn't the only one in the audience who thought that this specifically was what he was alluding to: https://facethemusicjr.wixsite.com/facethemusic/single-post/2019/02/20/Al-Jardine-E280A2-Original-Founding-Member-of-The-Beach-Boys.

I should also note that despite hearing Al's hints firsthand, I am skeptical myself of a reunion occurring. It sounded like there wasn't much of a commitment from the parties at this point for such a thing, whatever that thing actually is, and whoever the parties in question are, which is probably why he was so vague about it. It was also my impression that this thing/event/reunion or whatever is at least a year or two down the line from now. A lot can happen between now and then, and knowing the history of this band I am not exactly keeping my hopes up. But we shall see — I would love to be wrong in this case.


Title: Re: Some recent thoughts/theories on C50 and possible potential reunions....
Post by: jeffh on May 20, 2019, 01:52:05 PM
 I think Mike just wanted to go back to the Mike & Bruce band. He more than met his obligation to the reunion band, originally set for 50 concerts, and later increased to what, 75. I can’t understand all of the complaints and theories over this. He more than met his obligations, and then he was done, he wanted out. He’s not a villain in this matter.


Title: Re: Some recent thoughts/theories on C50 and possible potential reunions....
Post by: Pretty Funky on May 20, 2019, 02:42:06 PM
I’m very sceptical, and think Mike, Brian and now Al have specific answers to ‘what about the future’ questions. All vague without giving any detail but designed to end questioning.

Mike: “Never say never.”
Brian: “My next albums going to be a Rock & Roll album.”
Al: “We might get back together next year.”



Title: Re: Some recent thoughts/theories on C50 and possible potential reunions....
Post by: myonlysunshine on May 20, 2019, 03:39:20 PM
I was the one who posted about Al's hints at a possible reunion (http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,25616.msg646799.html#msg646799). I do want to note that while Al was extremely vague with his hint (undoubtedly on-purpose), he specifically mentioned working with Brian's daughters this year separately from what he was hinting at. I interpreted Al's hints as alluding to a Beach Boys reunion, and I wasn't the only one in the audience who thought that this specifically was what he was alluding to: https://facethemusicjr.wixsite.com/facethemusic/single-post/2019/02/20/Al-Jardine-E280A2-Original-Founding-Member-of-The-Beach-Boys.

I should also note that despite hearing Al's hints firsthand, I am skeptical myself of a reunion occurring. It sounded like there wasn't much of a commitment from the parties at this point for such a thing, whatever that thing actually is, and whoever the parties in question are, which is probably why he was so vague about it. It was also my impression that this thing/event/reunion or whatever is at least a year or two down the line from now. A lot can happen between now and then, and knowing the history of this band I am not exactly keeping my hopes up. But we shall see — I would love to be wrong in this case.

I also want to clarify how Al presented his hints at the concert:

He sequentially listed the Beach Boys and Brian Wilson activities coming up in the future. He started by noting that the Brian Wilson documentary will be coming out sometime this year (which we now know is titled Long Promised Road, although its title hadn't been revealed at that point in February). He then noted that his touring with Brian and his solo storytelling shows would continue later this year. He noted that he would be working with Brian's daughters, Carnie and Wendy, this year on a project (he didn't specify what this project was at the time, so I didn't include this information in my initial review of the concert, since working together on something could mean a lot of things). We now know this is probably the Family and Friends Reunion that was announced (and unfortunately postponed) somewhat recently. He then mentioned that a new Beach Boys documentary would be coming out in 2020. And then he began hinting at something involving him and the other Beach Boys being potentially in the works after that. When the audience began getting excited, Al blurted out the word "tour". And that was it.

Now is it possible Al could have been referring to reuniting with Carnie and Wendy for a Beach Boys Family and Friends reunion tour? Sure. But the fact that Al listed all of the upcoming events in chronological order, the fact that he specifically mentioned working with Carnie and Wendy this year as its own event, and from the way Al was acting and the terminology he used, I don't think a Family and Friends reunion was what he was alluding to.

That said, I agree with Pretty Funky's above post regarding "what about the future questions" and how Al, Mike, and Brian tend to handle them. I think Al, above all, would love for another reunion to happen, and so I think assuming that the above hint was anything other than wishful thinking on his part is a mistake, at least at this point. It is too far off and there have been no other mentions of it thus far. As I mentioned in my previous post, knowing the history of this band, I am not holding my breath.


Title: Re: Some recent thoughts/theories on C50 and possible potential reunions....
Post by: RubberSoul13 on May 20, 2019, 06:54:30 PM
While I'd love for this to transpire, I highly doubt it will...at least on the same level as C50 was. I have no doubt that these paths will continue to cross over the next 10-15 years or so in various capacities.

These guys do not have the stamina to do C50 over again. I still think the best thing for the future of the Beach Boys (not any singular member), is to come together as one...and allow Brian to show and participate as he pleases...advertising with no certainty that he would be present, and only booking about 40-50 shows a year in theatres and smaller amphitheaters. Make a solid touring front line of Mike Love, Bruce Johnston, David Marks, and Al Jardine....and put them to work, musically. You've got lead and rhythm guitar plus keyboards or bass. Pad it out with Scott Totten as MD and *third* guitarist to pickup when Al let's go of his guitar...keep "Ike" around on bass guitar and for those early falsetto leads, get Billy Hinsche back in for more keys and harmonies, and put Cowsill on kit. That's a solid lineup, if all parties were willing. Then when Brian is willing, let him take the leads he wants...want to sit at a piano? Sure! Strap on a bass? Sure! Just sit there? Sure!...no obligation.


I intentionally left Brian's regular core band out of the lineup...because should he be interested in doing a show of whatever he wants to do, then keep that option there. Let Al carry on with the Storytellers dynamic that really only he can pull off out of these guys...and if the Lovester gets a rod up his ass about them having separate revenue flows from touring, then tell him to reform the "Endless Summer Beach Band" and go plug these cracker jack records he insists on making...


Title: Re: Some recent thoughts/theories on C50 and possible potential reunions....
Post by: Pretty Funky on May 20, 2019, 07:50:12 PM
The only way I see Brian joining a C50 lineup is if he is retiring and it is a ‘Goodbye Brian’ type of deal. Short US tour only.

The time has come unfortunately.


Title: Re: Some recent thoughts/theories on C50 and possible potential reunions....
Post by: rab2591 on May 21, 2019, 04:19:09 AM
The way I see it? If it was going to happen it would've continued on after the C50 dates.

TWGMTR became their highest US charting studio album since before Pet Sounds! Yeah, Joe Thomas has some weird production on TWGMTR, but overall, that really is their best album since Holland, heck, maybe even Sunflower. Their concerts were friggin celebrations, lively, they sounded incredible. It was triumphant that the boys set aside their grudges, looked past the previous lawsuits (one of which was still going on not long before the C50 started).

But behind all of this there was struggle and annoyances, I'm sure the grudges were still present, wasn't there some issue with Stamos singing Forever during one of the concerts? Mics being supposedly tethered with some sort of auto-tune gear by Melinda herself? Mike being pissed Brian got his own tour bus? Regardless of whether some of these annoyances were real, the fact that these issues were talked about afterwards means that there was tension on the tour.

But going back to the paragraph above, this was still their most triumphant time period in a long time. They had it all - they had media recognition, their fans were united and happy to see them all on stage. They had a #3 charting album. The title song was played on rock radio stations across the country (and I still hear it to this day sometimes). I don't think any BRI suit, in their right mind, would let this cash cow go (who was to say that before the 60th anniversary another lawsuit at Brian wouldn't have been filed and completely soured the relationship between Mike and Brian? Or that some of the remaining members wouldn't have passed away during that time?)...when you're in the record business, or any business for that matter, you don't let something go in the hopes that a profit could be made in 10 year's time. If any profit can be made now, that's usually the best time to make a profit. Any marketer worth a hoot could've come up with other tour slogans and gimmicks for post C50 shows to draw in the crowds...the imagination can go wild with thoughts of a 'Kokomo' remake with some popular modern artist (giving momentum for younger crowds to go see the next iteration of concerts), The Beach Boys headlining a cross-country 60s band tour with guest artists like The Zombies, Ringo Starr, etc.. As was said above, another album was being planned. And given the material on NPP (regardless of what some here and elsewhere thought of it), it would've been a phenomenal album. Everything was there to make more money. But the differences mentioned above, the touring Mike was used to pre-C50, the wives/managers butting heads - all of this and more created a perfect atmosphere for Mike and Bruce to happily part ways with Brian, Al, David, etc (mostly because M&B held the Beach Boys name).

I don't think your theory is a bad one, but given all the factors above, I don't think it's a plausible scenario.


Title: Re: Some recent thoughts/theories on C50 and possible potential reunions....
Post by: HeyJude on May 21, 2019, 06:28:03 AM
I have recently wondered that the reason C50 ended was the suits (BRI maybe?) predicted that  once the thrill of the reunion died, maybe the overall excitement would too. They obviously couldn't keep marketing their tour as the 50th reunion band, and eventually just The Beach Boys. Once it was a given that the core members would be onstage, no longer something that felt finite, maybe management and/or the group was worried  they wouldn't continue to sell out these big places, and to prevent embarrassment, made the call that only Mike and Bruce would continue touring as The Beach Boys until the 60th reunion, where there would again be excitement to see the core members together again. Now, it might be shocking to think that BRI would plan on there being a 60th reunion, but not really, considering neither Mike nor Brian (Al, Bruce, Dave, Blondie, etc) have expressed a desire to retire.

Maybe I'm entering conspiracy territory here, but it seems plausible to me.

Other than Mike's occasionally-cited bit that some unknown industry person advised him to "give it a rest" to build up demand, these theories all go against all known evidence that I can think of. It doesn't seem plausible to me given what we know about the band, the C50 project, and the concert industry in general.

First of all, we have a known litany of reasons Mike was unhappy with the tour. We've gone over these ad nauseam, as has Mike. We also have Brian and Al, at the outset of the post-reunion period anyway, *vociferously* letting it be known that they wanted to continue the reunion.

The end of the reunion, meaning specifically the awfully-timed and awfully-worded "press release" from Mike's camp about Mike going back to his own thing, followed by the ensuing days and weeks of awkward media back-and-forth, dueling letters to the LA Times, etc., *all* of those things HUGELY DAMAGED the band's brand and standing in the industry. The idea that *anything* about the *way* the reunion ended was a strategic, planned move on the part of BRI makes absolutely no sense. We've had industry people specifically mention that there were bigger fish in the concert promotion industry, with bigger bank than Joe Thomas, who were watching C50 for potential future investment/promotion, and once the 100% amateur ending to the reunion happened, those deep-pocket promoters balked.

BRI didn't even run the C50 project; it was run by a newly-formed "50 Big Ones Productions" fronted by Brian, Mike, and Joe Thomas. While any such projects would need the approval (either passively or actively) from BRI to use the name, no decisions regarding the tour were being made by BRI itself.

But more to the point, the idea that a *hugely successful* reunion tour would immediately start losing interest from fans after only 73 dates (including only TWO shows in the UK) also goes completely against all the evidence. The C50 tour never hit *numerous* secondary US markets that could have handled such a show. They also could have easily made return visits to key primary markets. And, they barely scratched the surface of markets outside of the US. Only approximately 23 shows for the entire rest of the world? They could have done many more shows in the UK, dozens and dozens more in Europe, certainly more in Korea/Japan, etc., and they could have gone into other markets like Russia and China.

There was also a 100% unexplored route of eventually, after doing more legs, settling into a potentially INSANELY LUCRATIVE Las Vegas residency.

We have industry people (and, through vague references, some band members themselves) mentioning that BIGGER offers were potentially in the offing for further tour legs.

The reunion tour was barely getting started when it ended. I'm not sure why people think 73 worldwide dates over the span of about five months is all that the demand would bare. Tours like this, especially when they get good reviews and word of mouth like the C50 tour did, do HUNDREDS of shows over many legs over two or three years.

The whole "they couldn't keep calling it a 50th anniversary" thing, which was mentioned back in 2012 as well, was a 100% non-issue. They could have easily continued calling it a "50th" tour for another year, and if they had continued in perpetuity, they could have easily found all sorts of marketing angles to keep it going. It is not difficult to come up with new names for tours. Look at McCartney; his tour names are usually awful ("Freshen Up"? Wtf?), but he keeps doing it and it's an easy marketing angle to use.

2014 could have been "50 Years of Fun Fun Fun" or whatever, and so on.

They could have maintained the reunion band as an evolving, continually refined well-oiled machine with new marketing angles as the thing continued on. Add Blondie to some dates. Do full albums.

They could have even maintained side bands for cheaper off-season corporate gigs and whatnot.

Poor (or no) management led to the embarrassing *way* the reunion ended. As to why the reunion ended, in my opinion it's by all evidence, including Mike's own words, because Mike quit the band and wanted to go back to his own thing.

He clearly didn't like even tangentially having to work with Melinda. He didn't like playing more large venues and having a larger touring operation. I'm sure he prefers his lean band, where he, I'm guessing, makes more money over the course of each year, and has NOBODY to answer to when it comes to all aspects of the operation, from the setlist to the overhead, and so on.

The only change to the "C50 narrative" that I think is possibly germane to the discussion that hasn't been deeply explored is why and how the reunion happened in the first place. I think there may come a time where more evidence or commentary indicates Mike was much less amenable to a reunion even *at the outset* than what we've previously thought. Just hunches/guesses/opinions. But I think the common narrative of Mike being into the reunion, and then at some point *afterward* souring on it, may be partially incorrect, or at least incomplete. Again, just spitballing, but what if Brian and Mike were offered big, fat advances that amounted to offers that couldn't be easily refused? I think it's possible that we may have to thank Joe Thomas scrounging up advance money as the main reason the reunion project ever happened in the first place.


Title: Re: Some recent thoughts/theories on C50 and possible potential reunions....
Post by: Rocker on May 21, 2019, 07:08:48 AM

The whole "they couldn't keep calling it a 50th anniversary" thing, which was mentioned back in 2012 as well, was a 100% non-issue. They could have easily continued calling it a "50th" tour for another year, and if they had continued in perpetuity, they could have easily found all sorts of marketing angles to keep it going. It is not difficult to come up with new names for tours. Look at McCartney; his tour names are usually awful ("Freshen Up"? Wtf?), but he keeps doing it and it's an easy marketing angle to use.



I mentioned it in another thread not too long ago, but that's exactly what Mike did. I'm not sure what the current tour is called but he did 50 Years of Fun Fun Fun (iirc), 50 years of GV, 50 Years of Wild Honey. Basically, Mike continued the Beach Boys tour, including the 50th anniversary theme, the video wall and Carl & Dennis making appearances on tape while the band played live. The only thing that wasn't continued was the presence of other Beach Boys (except for Bruce of course and occasionally David).
BUT I believe Mike was maybe not unwilling to have Al join him. There was talk of Al at least doing a guest performance after the reunion ended (and of course in 2011 Al joined Mike&Bruce for the Reagan anniversary) but Al decided to stay with Brian.


Title: Re: Some recent thoughts/theories on C50 and possible potential reunions....
Post by: HeyJude on May 21, 2019, 07:59:40 AM

The whole "they couldn't keep calling it a 50th anniversary" thing, which was mentioned back in 2012 as well, was a 100% non-issue. They could have easily continued calling it a "50th" tour for another year, and if they had continued in perpetuity, they could have easily found all sorts of marketing angles to keep it going. It is not difficult to come up with new names for tours. Look at McCartney; his tour names are usually awful ("Freshen Up"? Wtf?), but he keeps doing it and it's an easy marketing angle to use.



I mentioned it in another thread not too long ago, but that's exactly what Mike did. I'm not sure what the current tour is called but he did 50 Years of Fun Fun Fun (iirc), 50 years of GV, 50 Years of Wild Honey. Basically, Mike continued the Beach Boys tour, including the 50th anniversary theme, the video wall and Carl & Dennis making appearances on tape while the band played live. The only thing that wasn't continued was the presence of other Beach Boys (except for Bruce of course and occasionally David).
BUT I believe Mike was maybe not unwilling to have Al join him. There was talk of Al at least doing a guest performance after the reunion ended (and of course in 2011 Al joined Mike&Bruce for the Reagan anniversary) but Al decided to stay with Brian.

I don't think Mike seemed to have a particular stance against specifically Al in the post-C50 time frame. I think he just wanted to go back to his own tour. Keep in mind, not only is he of course "in charge" of the band on his own tour, his own company *runs* his tour. So when we're talking about Mike going back to his "own thing", we're not talking only about being able to pick the songs and musicians, and we're not even only talking about specifically money. We're talking about the entire apparatus running the tours being completely different.

And yes, it appears Mike then cherry-picked the little production elements of the C50 tour that he liked and kept them on (thus the odd spectacle of a "Beach Boys" show in 2013 ending up showcasing the deceased Carl and Dennis, but not the still-living Brian or Al).

Back to Al, post-C50 he did appear at Mike's "Ella Award" event in early 2014, and then there were conflicting reports about his appearing at a Mike gig at Jones Beach later in 2014. The full story of that Jones Beach debacle has still not been told from what I've heard, but I think based even on the extant public evidence, that was some sort of deal/quid pro quo situation that fell through, with a healthy dollop of classic Beach Boys miscommunication.


Title: Re: Some recent thoughts/theories on C50 and possible potential reunions....
Post by: guitarfool2002 on May 21, 2019, 09:29:46 AM
So much to go over, again much of it ground that has already been walked on and covered many times since 2012...but I'll say as usual Rab and HeyJude are on the mark with their commentary. Just a few points and replies:

--- Rab: Spot-on commentary. As you spelled out:  Plans for a 60th tour as a reason why C50 happened as it did? Hogwash. As you say, and the pure common sense of it is so obvious, anyone in the business of making money and planning to make more money based on audience demand goes by the credo "strike while the iron is hot" and jump on the demand while it is high. In this case...if the theory is that those managers and planners would instead wait for these musicians to be roughly 80 years old and wait for them to embark on a major tour and other activities instead of doing it when the iron was glowing red hot...those managers and planners would best be described as optimistic to a fault or just plain dumb.

Only point I'd pick out was the phrase "happily part ways"...Mike did not happily part ways. "A picture is worth a thousand words"...remember how the Wilsons threw a wrap party for the C50 crew in the UK...and the only two who weren't there were Mike and Bruce, who had "other commitments" even though their band members somehow made it to the dinner. Does that sound like a happy parting of ways?


--- Nate: Your comment - "The tour was making money. Audiences were thrilled."   Please inform those vociferous online defenders of Mike's (and ostensibly Mike himself) that the tour was making money. Mike and his defenders argue that it was not making money, despite industry stats and end-of-tour totals from their run in 2012, and have argued that point to some ridiculous levels of parsing words/numbers and in some cases pure slinging of the proverbial bullshit to place the issue of the tour NOT making money as yet another excuse for Mike deciding to cut ties and walk. So yes, the tour was making money...Mike doesn't agree with your statement.

--- Jeff H:

I think Mike just wanted to go back to the Mike & Bruce band. He more than met his obligation to the reunion band, originally set for 50 concerts, and later increased to what, 75. I can’t understand all of the complaints and theories over this. He more than met his obligations, and then he was done, he wanted out. He’s not a villain in this matter.


Then why from the get-go as soon as his LA Times "reply" was published after the shitstorm from the Grammy event...or why in the past almost 7 years did Mike not say exactly that? No, instead we got any number of reasons, excuses, and some laughable flubs like his quip about the Eagles rather than the kind of cut-through-the-bullshit statement as you wrote. Perhaps the complaints and theories were reacting to Mike's changing commentary or the idiocy of some of his supporters trying to hammer square pegs into round holes to justify or defend something that both fact and fan sentiment couldn't justify as valid?

It makes you wonder why, if the answer truly was as you stated "He more than met his obligations", we have had to suffer over 6 years of Mike offering multiple "reasons" and his online supporters arguing anytime a new reason or talking point came out of Mike via his book or interviews or however else.



Title: Re: Some recent thoughts/theories on C50 and possible potential reunions....
Post by: Jay on May 21, 2019, 10:07:35 AM
The hell of it is, if the group reunited today, it wouldn't be anywhere near as successful as C50. The "hype" and demand is gone, and Mike is once again the bad guy, so that's the only thing  the media will focus on. And with no album or any new music, it will be shrugged off as just a typical nostalgic trip. I can't remember who it was, but somebody once said that the ending of C50 was like " grabbing defeat from the mouth of victory". I dearly wish I had come up with that, because it perfectly describes The Beach Boys in a nutshell. This band literally goes out of its way to screw things up.


Title: Re: Some recent thoughts/theories on C50 and possible potential reunions....
Post by: HeyJude on May 21, 2019, 10:38:12 AM
I have more to add on other topics, but concerning the "build up demand" issue, those claims as a reason to end C50 don't hold water for numerous reasons.

First of all, Mike had been running the "brand" ragged year after year up to the reunion, and indeed had a non-reunion gig the *very next day* after the last reunion concert date. That isn't giving the *name* part of the "brand" any rest. Literally, zero rest. Out touring the very next day!

But more to the point, the idea behind "building up demand" would be to not take the reunion lineup to 150 dates including rib cook-offs and bowling alley grand openings.

C50 easily could have booked another 100 shows through the end of 2013. Would the demand have slowed had they done 150 shows per year every year? Perhaps, but the idea then in "giving it a rest" a bit is not to DISBAND and go back to individual tours. The idea would be, after two or three years of touring, for them all to take six or twelve friggin' months off and enjoy their lives of luxury and mansions, and then come back again.

Remember, it was Carl who decades earlier wanted the band to tour less. Then, instead of playing fairs and casinos every year all year, they'd tour every two or three years and they could have been playing more amphitheaters and arenas, etc. Yes, as an audience member I like the smallest, most intimate venues. But when we're talking about demand and brand value and all of that, overtouring (both pre and post-Al/Carl) has always hurt the level of demand. It was amazing the C50 tour did so well. That was all how it was run and marketing all of that. And it could have continued....


Title: Re: Some recent thoughts/theories on C50 and possible potential reunions....
Post by: Jim V. on May 21, 2019, 10:38:48 AM
I think Mike just wanted to go back to the Mike & Bruce band. He more than met his obligation to the reunion band, originally set for 50 concerts, and later increased to what, 75. I can’t understand all of the complaints and theories over this. He more than met his obligations, and then he was done, he wanted out. He’s not a villain in this matter.

Jeff, I don't think anybody is a "villain" in this...

But...if Mike wanted "out" then perhaps he should have quit The Beach Boys and went solo. Instead what he did was quit The Beach Boys to then go right back out again days later AS The Beach Boys, despite Brian and Al wanting to continue. I don't think any of the guys should be made to do anything they don't want to, but to say Mike was being fair in the this is nonsense. He really had nothing to lose by leaving. So this isn't the same as a random person quitting a random band. He knew he had the name in his back pocket and therefore could afford to "want out."


Title: Re: Some recent thoughts/theories on C50 and possible potential reunions....
Post by: HeyJude on May 21, 2019, 12:16:46 PM
I think Mike just wanted to go back to the Mike & Bruce band. He more than met his obligation to the reunion band, originally set for 50 concerts, and later increased to what, 75. I can’t understand all of the complaints and theories over this. He more than met his obligations, and then he was done, he wanted out. He’s not a villain in this matter.

This is the same stuff Mike says over and over in interviews. *Nobody* has ever claimed Mike didn't meet his contractual obligations. The discussion on the demise of the reunion has never centered around an idea that Mike breached any contract of anything of that nature.

The discussion has always centered on the idea that other members wanted to *continue* the reunion, and Mike didn't.

I most certainly can't understand why anyone can't grasp this crux of the debate after nearly seven years.

"I did what I was contractually obligated to do" is an answer to a question that nobody has ever asked.


Title: Re: Some recent thoughts/theories on C50 and possible potential reunions....
Post by: Lonely Summer on May 21, 2019, 07:12:33 PM
The way I see it? If it was going to happen it would've continued on after the C50 dates.

TWGMTR became their highest US charting studio album since before Pet Sounds! Yeah, Joe Thomas has some weird production on TWGMTR, but overall, that really is their best album since Holland, heck, maybe even Sunflower. Their concerts were friggin celebrations, lively, they sounded incredible. It was triumphant that the boys set aside their grudges, looked past the previous lawsuits (one of which was still going on not long before the C50 started).

But behind all of this there was struggle and annoyances, I'm sure the grudges were still present, wasn't there some issue with Stamos singing Forever during one of the concerts? Mics being supposedly tethered with some sort of auto-tune gear by Melinda herself? Mike being pissed Brian got his own tour bus? Regardless of whether some of these annoyances were real, the fact that these issues were talked about afterwards means that there was tension on the tour.

But going back to the paragraph above, this was still their most triumphant time period in a long time. They had it all - they had media recognition, their fans were united and happy to see them all on stage. They had a #3 charting album. The title song was played on rock radio stations across the country (and I still hear it to this day sometimes).
Hmm....okay. I never heard ANY of the TWGMTR songs on any radio stations. That didn't surprise me. I never hear new McCartney songs on the radio, either. Last time I heard a "new" song by Paul on the radio was Hope of Deliverance back in 1993. Stations that play current music play current artists; oldies or classic rock stations only play the old hits.And the fact that TWGMTR hit #3 on the album chart seems impressive - but it was out of the top 200 within a month. Even Beach Boys 1985 had a longer chart run than that. Probably sold more, too - i heard all three of the singles from that album on the radio.


Title: Re: Some recent thoughts/theories on C50 and possible potential reunions....
Post by: rab2591 on May 21, 2019, 07:47:18 PM
Only point I'd pick out was the phrase "happily part ways"...Mike did not happily part ways. "A picture is worth a thousand words"...remember how the Wilsons threw a wrap party for the C50 crew in the UK...and the only two who weren't there were Mike and Bruce, who had "other commitments" even though their band members somehow made it to the dinner. Does that sound like a happy parting of ways?

Thanks for your kind words about my post! And as for the "happily parted ways" comment, I meant that solely Mike and Bruce seemed happy to leave the C50 arrangement behind them. I didn't mean to imply or state that I thought Brian, Al, and David were happy with how the C50 ended. Sorry for that mixup! I completely agree with your comments about that.

Hmm....okay. I never heard ANY of the TWGMTR songs on any radio stations. That didn't surprise me. I never hear new McCartney songs on the radio, either. Last time I heard a "new" song by Paul on the radio was Hope of Deliverance back in 1993. Stations that play current music play current artists; oldies or classic rock stations only play the old hits.And the fact that TWGMTR hit #3 on the album chart seems impressive - but it was out of the top 200 within a month. Even Beach Boys 1985 had a longer chart run than that. Probably sold more, too - i heard all three of the singles from that album on the radio.

I guess it depends on who runs the radio stations where you are. I'm pretty certain others here heard TWGMTR around the time it was released. Anywho, our own personal anecdotes about what we heard or didn't hear isn't really the point. The point was that The Beach Boys were in the best spot that they had been in a really long time: They were indeed on the radio across the country in 2012. Even if their staying power on the charts wasn't great, fact is that they made it really high on those charts...thus placing them in the best spot they had been in a long time...thus my opinion in response to OP that no BRI suit would pass that opportunity up.


Title: Re: Some recent thoughts/theories on C50 and possible potential reunions....
Post by: HeyJude on May 22, 2019, 07:03:18 AM
Hmm....okay. I never heard ANY of the TWGMTR songs on any radio stations. That didn't surprise me. I never hear new McCartney songs on the radio, either. Last time I heard a "new" song by Paul on the radio was Hope of Deliverance back in 1993. Stations that play current music play current artists; oldies or classic rock stations only play the old hits.And the fact that TWGMTR hit #3 on the album chart seems impressive - but it was out of the top 200 within a month. Even Beach Boys 1985 had a longer chart run than that. Probably sold more, too - i heard all three of the singles from that album on the radio.


New Beach Boys (or solo) product is not going to get spun on terrestrial radio much at all. "Kokomo" and the late 80s was probably the last time the BBs were getting any decent rotation on radio (and MTV, VH1, etc.).

Maybe a classic rock or oldies station might have spun TWGMTR a few times to promote upcoming live shows or something. But none of that stuff, even the title track, got any widespread radio airplay.

Like most "legacy" artists of a similar era, the 2012 TWGMTR album was only ever going to do well on the albums charts. Acts like the Beach Boys or McCartney still do well on album charts, not singles. McCartney stuff doesn't get tracked much on radio either, even when he makes (lame) attempts to go more modern/trendy/poppy. Again, a new track might get played now and then as a sort of novelty. But McCartney stuff isn't residing in any "hot singles" playlists.

That all being said, I'm not downplaying C50 at all. I'm (obviously, based on my billion posts on the topic over the years) the biggest fan of C50 there is. The thing, up until the amateur ending, was a best case scenario all around. The tour was received well and the shows were great, the album performed very well, as well as we could ever hope, and the PR around the tour (again, prior to the ending) was going great, even with potential hiccups along the way (Bruce's dumb TMZ moment). Cranky, crusty fans who have complained about Mike for years absolutely warmed to him on C50.

And then all the amazing work and future potential was gone in a blink.


Title: Re: Some recent thoughts/theories on C50 and possible potential reunions....
Post by: guitarfool2002 on May 22, 2019, 07:35:26 AM
I heard the title track in the car, on the radio, in 2012 when the album first came out. I still remember it was on a weekend and it sounded great in the car, as most of the band's music does. Isn't it odd how I still remember when I first heard it that way? So yes it did get airplay.

Plus, again as mentioned, "legacy" artists like McCartney, Petty, even Weird Al have nearly the same chart performance as the BB's did in 2012...the new album drops, there is a spike in sales that drives it onto the charts for about a month and it may peak top-5 for the first week or two, then it's gone again. Petty and Weird Al scored #1 albums for about a week, then the albums were gone from the charts. That's the way things were around 2012-2016 and the way they are now is even more temporary in terms of albums charting in the digital and streaming age.

It's not like 1971.  :)  And it still gets under my skin that Mike badmouthed the album which went top 5 in 2012 because he was pissy about his "executive producer" credit (and subsequent points) when it wasn't what he wanted it to be in terms of him controlling the process.

And again, as mentioned, that's not really the point, none of it is. They were getting more positive exposure (and more exposure period) *as a band* than they had in a long time. Jimmy Fallon gave them a cold opening on his show...before the monologue, before the credits, there were the Beach Boys singing In My Room. Did anything the band had done reach that level of national exposure in the recent years of Mike's constant touring as The Beach Boys up to or after that moment? Absolutely not, and it has not since in terms of the Beach Boys as a group offering new music.

But as has been mentioned, this is all ground which has been covered again and again, yet there are still these points which pop up in attempts to either whitewash or sweep under the carpet those decisions, actions, and comments made by Mike which have rankled fans and observers since Fall 2012.

I've said it before, and will say it again and again - I think the heart of so much of this overall has centered around trying to either absolve Mike of any responsibility for the choices he made, or to try to find ways to defend or justify the things that were done to the point of ignoring the facts or trying to rewrite and recast them to put a positive spin on what happened.


Title: Re: Some recent thoughts/theories on C50 and possible potential reunions....
Post by: MyDrKnowsItKeepsMeCalm on May 22, 2019, 09:13:26 AM
I remember reading an article about the title track of TWGMTR right when the album was released in 2012, saying it was their best song in 40 years or something to that effect. It made me seek out the song, and while it didn't blow me away quite that much I ended up buying a ticket to C50 right on the heels of that. Both the tour and the album got great press.



Title: Re: Some recent thoughts/theories on C50 and possible potential reunions....
Post by: Rocker on May 22, 2019, 10:04:36 AM
Both the tour and the album got great press.




That's because for once they handled something the right way.


Title: Re: Some recent thoughts/theories on C50 and possible potential reunions....
Post by: CenturyDeprived on May 22, 2019, 10:49:27 AM
I think Mike just wanted to go back to the Mike & Bruce band. He more than met his obligation to the reunion band, originally set for 50 concerts, and later increased to what, 75. I can’t understand all of the complaints and theories over this. He more than met his obligations, and then he was done, he wanted out. He’s not a villain in this matter.

Jeff, I don't think anybody is a "villain" in this...

For the people who *don't* think that Mike is the "villain" with regards to C50's ending, I want to know what actions Mike (or anybody) would have had to do to in fact actually qualify as a villain in the C50 implosion. What would Mike have had to have done for those people to say "yep, I think Mike is actually the villain in how this played out"?  Surely some behavior less egregious than literal murder could qualify as villainous in this story, right?

I'm looking forward to the answer.

Granted it's surely a complex and nuanced tale, and it's not a 100% black and white situation, but ultimately the fact is that Mike edged out his decades-long bandmates behind their backs *because he could*. Same reason why Mike edged Al out of the band in 1998. Because he could. Control freaky behavior.  Mike basically changed the locks on the house behind his bandmates' back.

Doesn't mean that Mike hasn't contributed tons of great stuff to the band over the years, it doesn't make him satan. But he's in the wrong on this if we're to look at it from an ethical perspective. If Brian Wilson (and Al) wanted to be Beach Boys again, as they stated, it's really, really f*cked up for Mike to pull the rug out from under them, no matter how many excuses and how many t-shirts Mike wants to print "set end date" on.

It was pretty much Mike's most passive aggressive douchey (and ridiculously clunky) move in the history of this band (and there are many examples to choose from), and sadly it was all played out in public.


Title: Re: Some recent thoughts/theories on C50 and possible potential reunions....
Post by: Rocker on May 22, 2019, 11:42:06 AM
He then mentioned that a new Beach Boys documentary would be coming out in 2020.


So this was not the new Brian doc? That's interesting. Between Endless Harmony and today a lot of things have happened that I think would be interesting to be discussed (like the end of the reunion but also how it came to be). Also we have seen "new" footage surface like the '69 show in France and the '70 footage also from France or the Ida Blackburn footage from '64. I would love to see a new documentary with this kind of material being used. Although EH was probably as good as it gets, it was limited to fit the "Behind the music" format which it was done for IIRC. A new movie could go a different way. Last year's "The Searcher" about Elvis Presley was a very refreshing look at a subject that had more documentaries done about it then probably anybody else. So a new Beach Boys movie has potential imo for not being just a Endless Harmony revisited.


Title: Re: Some recent thoughts/theories on C50 and possible potential reunions....
Post by: Pretty Funky on May 22, 2019, 11:44:30 AM
Okay CD. I’ll put my toe in. Mike is a business man first and foremost. Does that make him a villain? Possibly in some eyes.
However businessman Mike signed up for a deal. It was marketed as such. Other joined the deal and agreed to the terms (Al: ‘We’re reuniting this one last time!’). The terms of the deal were extended. Parties completed every contractual date as required.

Then there is the emotional side. When parties, including Mike started saying early on something like ‘the past is the past, it’s all good now’, we are going forward’ I too thought this might last past 2012, but as I watched various video clips through the tour it was obvious there was no real ‘group’ onstage and they were just going through the motions. There were then stories implying there was not really a’group’ off stage as well. Wives were mentioned, Brian wasn’t signing ‘signed’ souvenir programs (a contractual breach IMO). Even the RS story in June implied the tour was like walking on a tightrope.

So personally, I suspected it was not going to last but was pleasantly surprised it got extended, and in fact caught a show in Australia after the announcement that 2012 was it. It confirmed to me that yes, it was a business deal only that I was watching on that stage. The group itself had ended years before even Carl had died, probably Dennis.

Just to add more fuel to the fire. Some might remember Al and Brian did some gigs 8-10 years ago. Without trolling through the posts for that period I do recall some UK gigs were also marketed along with US dates. Suddenly Al had to quit mid-tour to complete recording his album or a scheduling conflict I recall. Total bs IMO, however that was the official line that was pushed. So back to the business side of things. Al bails mid tour and it’s ok. Mike completes 70 plus gigs as agreed and understood by all parties and decides ‘that’s enough’ but he’s the villain.

Don’t get me wrong. I have called out every group member and the group itself for many things over the years of posting, but I don’t have the rose tinted glasses that others have. It is only a business to most involved, nothing more. Cut out the emotion of it being ‘a group’ and it’s all pretty clear.


Title: Re: Some recent thoughts/theories on C50 and possible potential reunions....
Post by: HeyJude on May 22, 2019, 12:30:06 PM
Okay CD. I’ll put my toe in. Mike is a business man first and foremost. Does that make him a villain? Possibly in some eyes.
However businessman Mike signed up for a deal. It was marketed as such. Other joined the deal and agreed to the terms (Al: ‘We’re reuniting this one last time!’). The terms of the deal were extended. Parties completed every contractual date as required.

Then there is the emotional side. When parties, including Mike started saying early on something like ‘the past is the past, it’s all good now’, we are going forward’ I too thought this might last past 2012, but as I watched various video clips through the tour it was obvious there was no real ‘group’ onstage and they were just going through the motions. There were then stories implying there was not really a’group’ off stage as well. Wives were mentioned, Brian wasn’t signing ‘signed’ souvenir programs (a contractual breach IMO). Even the RS story in June implied the tour was like walking on a tightrope.

So personally, I suspected it was not going to last but was pleasantly surprised it got extended, and in fact caught a show in Australia after the announcement that 2012 was it. It confirmed to me that yes, it was a business deal only that I was watching on that stage. The group itself had ended years before even Carl had died, probably Dennis.

Just to add more fuel to the fire. Some might remember Al and Brian did some gigs 8-10 years ago. Without trolling through the posts for that period I do recall some UK gigs were also marketed along with US dates. Suddenly Al had to quit mid-tour to complete recording his album or a scheduling conflict I recall. Total bs IMO, however that was the official line that was pushed. So back to the business side of things. Al bails mid tour and it’s ok. Mike completes 70 plus gigs as agreed and understood by all parties and decides ‘that’s enough’ but he’s the villain.

Don’t get me wrong. I have called out every group member and the group itself for many things over the years of posting, but I don’t have the rose tinted glasses that others have. It is only a business to most involved, nothing more. Cut out the emotion of it being ‘a group’ and it’s all pretty clear.

But again, "not breaching a contract" and "breaking up the reunited band" are two VERY different things.

As I've been saying, NOBODY has EVER suggested Mike broke any contracts. So the "he did what he was contractually obligated to do" thing is, *again*, an answer to a question nobody has asked. It shouldn't even enter the discussion, because CLEARLY the problem fans had with the end of the reunion was that it was ENDING!

Nobody claimed Mike reneged on any deals or broke any contracts. It was very much a case of simply being bummed and frustrated that he wasn't highly prioritizing keeping the band together. I think this was felt more strongly by fans because the reunion was actual ART. It wasn't just a quick novelty thing where we could say we saw them on stage together one last time. It was arguably the best shows since the '75 Beachago tour era. It was a dream come true. It was Brian's amazing band, plus a couple of Mike's best guys, plus everybody being there and not just phoning it in, but bringing the goods.

They did things NO band has ever done back in 2012. Mike did indeed go from Frankie Valli to Mick Jagger. They did indeed turn an AARP touring brand into an *arena act.* So much progress, so much success, so much past BS gotten past by the band and fans. Or so we thought. And Mike didn't want it. Working with Brian and Melinda wasn't worth it to him, again by his own words in his book. *Everybody else* got past all their bulls**t and not only did the reunion, but *enjoyed* it. But not Mike apparently, again according to his own book. Despite having more say and input into the proceedings than Al, Bruce, or David, he ended up the one feeling most disenfranchised.

A comparison to Al and the 2007 European tour (and he announced his departure *prior* to the tour starting, not mid-tour) isn't apt at all in my opinion. In that case, there was *arguably* more of a contractual (or truth-in-advertising) situation regarding Al having to cancel. If anything, the interpersonal/political reasons Al probably had for backing out were *more* justified, whereas on the contractual/advertising side it was more problematic. But as far as I recall, people could have asked for ticket refunds, and Al also did offer some sort of consolation to those who had bought tickets (I think they got a CD sampler/EP eventually from his album).


Title: Re: Some recent thoughts/theories on C50 and possible potential reunions....
Post by: HeyJude on May 22, 2019, 12:40:14 PM
Regarding Al mentioning various potential projects at that gig, it's worth pointing out: I'm a huge fan of Al, he's the most down-to-Earth, lucid, easy going guy left in the core band, and also has an unprecedentedly amazingly intact voice.

But if you go back through years of interviews, fan interactions, and so on, he occasionally says stuff that, for lack of a better way to put it, just kind of leaves you scratching your head and perhaps muttering "huh?" to yourself. I know this sounds vague, but it's just one of the quirks that go along with Al. There's no malice or agenda involved when he says this stuff. It's just Al Jardine-brand "wtf?" moments. Sometimes he just clearly blabs something (e.g. the "Smile" set debacle back in 2011), and other times he says something that maybe even isn't meant to be cryptic, but ends up being just that. Sometimes later events help to explain those cryptic comments, and other times it's forever firmly in the category of "huh?"


Title: Re: Some recent thoughts/theories on C50 and possible potential reunions....
Post by: CenturyDeprived on May 22, 2019, 12:40:34 PM
Okay CD. I’ll put my toe in. Mike is a business man first and foremost. Does that make him a villain? Possibly in some eyes.
However businessman Mike signed up for a deal. It was marketed as such. Other joined the deal and agreed to the terms (Al: ‘We’re reuniting this one last time!’). The terms of the deal were extended. Parties completed every contractual date as required.


Firstly, with the implosion of C50, the untold lost amounts of money from larger tours, lost reunion albums/swag, etc, lost critical accolades for the brand/band as a whole, lost positive public/critical reevaluation of Michael Edward Love as a talented (non-hack) artist, are immeasurable.

As a purely business decision, Mike made an incredibly short-sighted move. If he wanted to (which he did/does) he could try to spin this as some sort of positive business move for larger quantity of smaller shows (and making things up in "volume"), but let's see how fast Mike would dodge an interviewer's question that delved into those examples I stated above. Those are not nothing burgers. Those are real things. It's friggin' sad.

There comes a point where saying the admittedly true statement that "Mike is a business man first and foremost" becomes a problem. I mean, we all have to draw the line somewhere. If Mike wrote song lyrics that said "I want your money, every member of the studio audience now... you all won't know the difference who's onstage and I'll take full advantage of that ignorance, now..." you'd probably say that Mike was taking the business side of everything way too far into polluting the art, and it would become unquestionably crass and gross, right?

Well Mike never wrote those exact lyrics, but his actions seem to imply that those are his thoughts. Sometimes, especially when all the parties involved are getting up there in age and it's obvious there won't be all that many more years that this can last - to somehow prioritize a misplaced business plan over what is good and right is just plain worthy of criticism.  

Mike just plain should know how much Brian has suffered throughout his life, and to just give his cousin a friggin' break and cede some control of the situation. Mike should have let Brian stay a Beach Boy again and not imploded C50 to make up (in small part) for ridiculously harassing VDP over song lyrics in '66 and being a contributing factor to that project's demise, which sadly helped usher in Brian's decades-long emotional decline. Also, to make up for the ridiculous 2005 lawsuit against Brian. Mike should have let Al stay a Beach Boy again to make up for pushing him out of the band in 1998. There are myriad reasons why Mike should have just sucked it up and kept things going.



Al bails mid tour and it’s ok. Mike completes 70 plus gigs as agreed and understood by all parties and decides ‘that’s enough’ but he’s the villain.


This is IMO an irrelevant comparison, as Al bailed - yes - but Al didn't bail and say "now I get to immediately book myself as the brand name and you don't!" to Brian. That's the chief dick move of Mike's. The brand name, and the way the band were pushing the reunion, should mean *something*. "Do it Again" became the soundtrack of the reunion, with a redone version and the reunited band singing about doing fun things again. That packed some emotional punch in context.  Then Mike went ahead and crassly remade that same song again (with Mark McGrath and Uncle Jesse) and hoped everyone's memory of the recently-redone version would just disappear.   

It's like Mike is trying to drain any emotional punch or connection that fans could possibly have from the music he creates. Feels like he is playing his fans for fools. Mike, Mark McGrath, Uncle Jesse, all dancing in front of the white bedding sheet in the hotel room. Don't forget the blacklight.


Title: Re: Some recent thoughts/theories on C50 and possible potential reunions....
Post by: Pretty Funky on May 22, 2019, 12:56:02 PM
Okay CD. I’ll put my toe in. Mike is a business man first and foremost. Does that make him a villain? Possibly in some eyes.
However businessman Mike signed up for a deal. It was marketed as such. Other joined the deal and agreed to the terms (Al: ‘We’re reuniting this one last time!’). The terms of the deal were extended. Parties completed every contractual date as required.

Then there is the emotional side. When parties, including Mike started saying early on something like ‘the past is the past, it’s all good now’, we are going forward’ I too thought this might last past 2012, but as I watched various video clips through the tour it was obvious there was no real ‘group’ onstage and they were just going through the motions. There were then stories implying there was not really a’group’ off stage as well. Wives were mentioned, Brian wasn’t signing ‘signed’ souvenir programs (a contractual breach IMO). Even the RS story in June implied the tour was like walking on a tightrope.

So personally, I suspected it was not going to last but was pleasantly surprised it got extended, and in fact caught a show in Australia after the announcement that 2012 was it. It confirmed to me that yes, it was a business deal only that I was watching on that stage. The group itself had ended years before even Carl had died, probably Dennis.

Just to add more fuel to the fire. Some might remember Al and Brian did some gigs 8-10 years ago. Without trolling through the posts for that period I do recall some UK gigs were also marketed along with US dates. Suddenly Al had to quit mid-tour to complete recording his album or a scheduling conflict I recall. Total bs IMO, however that was the official line that was pushed. So back to the business side of things. Al bails mid tour and it’s ok. Mike completes 70 plus gigs as agreed and understood by all parties and decides ‘that’s enough’ but he’s the villain.

Don’t get me wrong. I have called out every group member and the group itself for many things over the years of posting, but I don’t have the rose tinted glasses that others have. It is only a business to most involved, nothing more. Cut out the emotion of it being ‘a group’ and it’s all pretty clear.

But again, "not breaching a contract" and "breaking up the reunited band" are two VERY different things.

As I've been saying, NOBODY has EVER suggested Mike broke any contracts. So the "he did what he was contractually obligated to do" thing is, *again*, an answer to a question nobody has asked. It shouldn't even enter the discussion, because CLEARLY the problem fans had with the end of the reunion was that it was ENDING!

Nobody claimed Mike reneged on any deals or broke any contracts. It was very much a case of simply being bummed and frustrated that he wasn't highly prioritizing keeping the band together. I think this was felt more strongly by fans because the reunion was actual ART. It wasn't just a quick novelty thing where we could say we saw them on stage together one last time. It was arguably the best shows since the '75 Beachago tour era. It was a dream come true. It was Brian's amazing band, plus a couple of Mike's best guys, plus everybody being there and not just phoning it in, but bringing the goods.

They did things NO band has ever done back in 2012. Mike did indeed go from Frankie Valli to Mick Jagger. They did indeed turn an AARP touring brand into an *arena act.* So much progress, so much success, so much past BS gotten past by the band and fans. Or so we thought. And Mike didn't want it. Working with Brian and Melinda wasn't worth it to him, again by his own words in his book. *Everybody else* got past all their bulls**t and not only did the reunion, but *enjoyed* it. But not Mike apparently, again according to his own book. Despite having more say and input into the proceedings than Al, Bruce, or David, he ended up the one feeling most disenfranchised.

A comparison to Al and the 2007 European tour (and he announced his departure *prior* to the tour starting, not mid-tour) isn't apt at all in my opinion. In that case, there was *arguably* more of a contractual (or truth-in-advertising) situation regarding Al having to cancel. If anything, the interpersonal/political reasons Al probably had for backing out were *more* justified, whereas on the contractual/advertising side it was more problematic. But as far as I recall, people could have asked for ticket refunds, and Al also did offer some sort of consolation to those who had bought tickets (I think they got a CD sampler/EP eventually from his album).

Just to clarify the mid tour comment. That was mid tour the US dates from memory. The UK tour was due to start soon after.


Title: Re: Some recent thoughts/theories on C50 and possible potential reunions....
Post by: HeyJude on May 22, 2019, 01:27:01 PM
Just to clarify the mid tour comment. That was mid tour the US dates from memory. The UK tour was due to start soon after.

Correct, but Al actually wasn't in the band for the US "legs" in May/June of 2007. He was only scheduled for one US show in the middle of that tour, the 6/9/07 Monterey gig (presumably because it was near Al's home). All other gigs were booked and advertised as regular Brian shows without Al. He did end up appearing unannounced at one additional show, the 6/11/07 show in Saratoga, CA (this was the infamous show, which I attended, where Brian decided to just lay down on stage). Brian had recorded with Al at Al's studio in between these two shows, on June 10th.

But the other gigs in May/June (they only did six total shows in the US in May/June) were done without Al. It's certainly the case that those US dates barely constituted a tour or a "leg"; they were simply a small hand full of warm-up shows prior to the European tour.

Al not doing the European tour was certainly a relatively last-minute thing; at the June 11th Saratoga show I attended, they were selling the European tour program already, which prominently featured Al.

Worth mentioning is that, according to rumor/reports, Al allegedly did the November/December 2006, January 2007, and June 2007 gigs with Brian *unpaid.* If that was the case, I don't know if that had anything to do with Al not doing the subsequent European tour. I think that whole tentative "reunion" between the two was on shakier ground back in 06/07.

To back track, in previous lawsuit documents concerning Mike/Brian (and other parties) lawsuits, one of the background elements mentioned in the documents was Mike's lawyers claiming that, at some point, Brian had threatened to vote to take the "Beach Boys" touring license back and tour with Al Jardine. That obviously never happened, and I would guess they never had any intention of doing so; I think it was just strategic posturing. But I always wondered if Al joining in on those 06/07 Brian gigs was related to that, to send a subtle message. In any event, that fell apart pretty quickly in the midst of a myriad of issues. Al may have been paying his own way to do the gigs. Brian had his incident at the June 11th show. I think Brian may have still been uncomfortable with Al in the band at that stage, and according to reports (including the Stebbins "FAQ" book as I recall), Al was certainly troubled by the June 11th incident (even if it was overblown on the internet subsequently). But I think the timeline is that it was decided Al wasn't doing the European tour just *prior* to that June 11th show, so I don't think that incident was directly related.

Nevertheless, I think Brian and Al have formed a much better, tighter, warmer bond post-2012.


Title: Re: Some recent thoughts/theories on C50 and possible potential reunions....
Post by: Pretty Funky on May 22, 2019, 01:58:22 PM
Obviously. And thanks for the reminder on the US dates not being official Brian/Al gigs as such. The worse thing is they are 12 years ago, not the 8-10 I guessed. The years are starting to roll by too quickly now.  :o


Title: Re: Some recent thoughts/theories on C50 and possible potential reunions....
Post by: Pretty Funky on May 22, 2019, 02:16:33 PM
Okay CD. I’ll put my toe in. Mike is a business man first and foremost. Does that make him a villain? Possibly in some eyes.
However businessman Mike signed up for a deal. It was marketed as such. Other joined the deal and agreed to the terms (Al: ‘We’re reuniting this one last time!’). The terms of the deal were extended. Parties completed every contractual date as required.


Firstly, with the implosion of C50, the untold lost amounts of money from larger tours, lost reunion albums/swag, etc, lost critical accolades for the brand/band as a whole, lost positive public/critical reevaluation of Michael Edward Love as a talented (non-hack) artist, are immeasurable.

As a purely business decision, Mike made an incredibly short-sighted move. If he wanted to (which he did/does) he could try to spin this as some sort of positive business move for larger quantity of smaller shows (and making things up in "volume"), but let's see how fast Mike would dodge an interviewer's question that delved into those examples I stated above. Those are not nothing burgers. Those are real things. It's friggin' sad.

There comes a point where saying the admittedly true statement that "Mike is a business man first and foremost" becomes a problem. I mean, we all have to draw the line somewhere. If Mike wrote song lyrics that said "I want your money, every member of the studio audience now... you all won't know the difference who's onstage and I'll take full advantage of that ignorance, now..." you'd probably say that Mike was taking the business side of everything way too far into polluting the art, and it would become unquestionably crass and gross, right?

Well Mike never wrote those exact lyrics, but his actions seem to imply that those are his thoughts. Sometimes, especially when all the parties involved are getting up there in age and it's obvious there won't be all that many more years that this can last - to somehow prioritize a misplaced business plan over what is good and right is just plain worthy of criticism.  

Mike just plain should know how much Brian has suffered throughout his life, and to just give his cousin a friggin' break and cede some control of the situation. Mike should have let Brian stay a Beach Boy again and not imploded C50 to make up (in small part) for ridiculously harassing VDP over song lyrics in '66 and being a contributing factor to that project's demise, which sadly helped usher in Brian's decades-long emotional decline. Also, to make up for the ridiculous 2005 lawsuit against Brian. Mike should have let Al stay a Beach Boy again to make up for pushing him out of the band in 1998. There are myriad reasons why Mike should have just sucked it up and kept things going.



Al bails mid tour and it’s ok. Mike completes 70 plus gigs as agreed and understood by all parties and decides ‘that’s enough’ but he’s the villain.


This is IMO an irrelevant comparison, as Al bailed - yes - but Al didn't bail and say "now I get to immediately book myself as the brand name and you don't!" to Brian. That's the chief dick move of Mike's. The brand name, and the way the band were pushing the reunion, should mean *something*. "Do it Again" became the soundtrack of the reunion, with a redone version and the reunited band singing about doing fun things again. That packed some emotional punch in context.  Then Mike went ahead and crassly remade that same song again (with Mark McGrath and Uncle Jesse) and hoped everyone's memory of the recently-redone version would just disappear.   

It's like Mike is trying to drain any emotional punch or connection that fans could possibly have from the music he creates. Feels like he is playing his fans for fools. Mike, Mark McGrath, Uncle Jesse, all dancing in front of the white bedding sheet in the hotel room. Don't forget the blacklight.

All good points, but I come back to Mike being a businessman first and foremost. His priority as an ‘artist’ ( and I use that word loosely) is waaaaay down the list, right down with his loyalty to his former band mates.

I once heard a major CEO say a particular aspect of the business wasn’t making any money. The truth was by utilising the assets in other markets they could make more money, meaning more money for the shareholders. So market 1 might return 5%, but moving resources to market 2 returned 15% with possibly less marketing.
The C50 in this case was market 1. The M&B is market 2. Unfortunately for all concerned emotions went out the window for business and obviously personal reasons. Very sad but brutally honest. Legacy be damned!


Title: Re: Some recent thoughts/theories on C50 and possible potential reunions....
Post by: CenturyDeprived on May 22, 2019, 02:24:25 PM
Okay CD. I’ll put my toe in. Mike is a business man first and foremost. Does that make him a villain? Possibly in some eyes.
However businessman Mike signed up for a deal. It was marketed as such. Other joined the deal and agreed to the terms (Al: ‘We’re reuniting this one last time!’). The terms of the deal were extended. Parties completed every contractual date as required.


Firstly, with the implosion of C50, the untold lost amounts of money from larger tours, lost reunion albums/swag, etc, lost critical accolades for the brand/band as a whole, lost positive public/critical reevaluation of Michael Edward Love as a talented (non-hack) artist, are immeasurable.

As a purely business decision, Mike made an incredibly short-sighted move. If he wanted to (which he did/does) he could try to spin this as some sort of positive business move for larger quantity of smaller shows (and making things up in "volume"), but let's see how fast Mike would dodge an interviewer's question that delved into those examples I stated above. Those are not nothing burgers. Those are real things. It's friggin' sad.

There comes a point where saying the admittedly true statement that "Mike is a business man first and foremost" becomes a problem. I mean, we all have to draw the line somewhere. If Mike wrote song lyrics that said "I want your money, every member of the studio audience now... you all won't know the difference who's onstage and I'll take full advantage of that ignorance, now..." you'd probably say that Mike was taking the business side of everything way too far into polluting the art, and it would become unquestionably crass and gross, right?

Well Mike never wrote those exact lyrics, but his actions seem to imply that those are his thoughts. Sometimes, especially when all the parties involved are getting up there in age and it's obvious there won't be all that many more years that this can last - to somehow prioritize a misplaced business plan over what is good and right is just plain worthy of criticism.  

Mike just plain should know how much Brian has suffered throughout his life, and to just give his cousin a friggin' break and cede some control of the situation. Mike should have let Brian stay a Beach Boy again and not imploded C50 to make up (in small part) for ridiculously harassing VDP over song lyrics in '66 and being a contributing factor to that project's demise, which sadly helped usher in Brian's decades-long emotional decline. Also, to make up for the ridiculous 2005 lawsuit against Brian. Mike should have let Al stay a Beach Boy again to make up for pushing him out of the band in 1998. There are myriad reasons why Mike should have just sucked it up and kept things going.



Al bails mid tour and it’s ok. Mike completes 70 plus gigs as agreed and understood by all parties and decides ‘that’s enough’ but he’s the villain.


This is IMO an irrelevant comparison, as Al bailed - yes - but Al didn't bail and say "now I get to immediately book myself as the brand name and you don't!" to Brian. That's the chief dick move of Mike's. The brand name, and the way the band were pushing the reunion, should mean *something*. "Do it Again" became the soundtrack of the reunion, with a redone version and the reunited band singing about doing fun things again. That packed some emotional punch in context.  Then Mike went ahead and crassly remade that same song again (with Mark McGrath and Uncle Jesse) and hoped everyone's memory of the recently-redone version would just disappear.  

It's like Mike is trying to drain any emotional punch or connection that fans could possibly have from the music he creates. Feels like he is playing his fans for fools. Mike, Mark McGrath, Uncle Jesse, all dancing in front of the white bedding sheet in the hotel room. Don't forget the blacklight.

All good points, but I come back to Mike being a businessman first and foremost. His priority as an ‘artist’ ( and I use that word loosely) is waaaaay down the list, right down with his loyalty to his former band mates.
 

Yep, nailed it. Sad indeed.


Title: Re: Some recent thoughts/theories on C50 and possible potential reunions....
Post by: guitarfool2002 on May 22, 2019, 02:58:11 PM
The contradiction becomes when we hear Mike is "all business" regarding his actions around C50 and the Beach Boys, yet his decades long history of remaking and doing soundalikes of BB classics should be seen as strictly for "fun".

So it's either all business or all fun with Mike? The soundalikes are not all business like the other activities?


Title: Re: Some recent thoughts/theories on C50 and possible potential reunions....
Post by: Steven on May 22, 2019, 03:46:57 PM
The contradiction becomes when we hear Mike is "all business" regarding his actions around C50 and the Beach Boys, yet his decades long history of remaking and doing soundalikes of BB classics should be seen as strictly for "fun".

So it's either all business or all fun with Mike? The soundalikes are not all business like the other activities?

 Fun is Mike's business and business is his fun.  :)


Title: Re: Some recent thoughts/theories on C50 and possible potential reunions....
Post by: CenturyDeprived on May 22, 2019, 03:53:40 PM
The contradiction becomes when we hear Mike is "all business" regarding his actions around C50 and the Beach Boys, yet his decades long history of remaking and doing soundalikes of BB classics should be seen as strictly for "fun".

So it's either all business or all fun with Mike? The soundalikes are not all business like the other activities?

 Fun is Mike's business and business is his fun.  :)

To that end, I think Mike should henceforth change the lyrics to "Fun, Fun, Fun" with "Business, Business, Business" for all future live performances, and all future multiple re-re-re-recordings.


Title: Re: Some recent thoughts/theories on C50 and possible potential reunions....
Post by: The LEGENDARY OSD on May 22, 2019, 07:02:53 PM
The contradiction becomes when we hear Mike is "all business" regarding his actions around C50 and the Beach Boys, yet his decades long history of remaking and doing soundalikes of BB classics should be seen as strictly for "fun".

So it's either all business or all fun with Mike? The soundalikes are not all business like the other activities?

 Fun is Mike's business and business is his fun.  :)

To that end, I think Mike should henceforth change the lyrics to "Fun, Fun, Fun" with "Business, Business, Business" for all future live performances, and all future multiple re-re-re-recordings.


 :pirate :h5 :rock :angry :happydance :love :bow :woot :woot :woot :thumbsup


Title: Re: Some recent thoughts/theories on C50 and possible potential reunions....
Post by: Pretty Funky on May 22, 2019, 07:48:10 PM
The contradiction becomes when we hear Mike is "all business" regarding his actions around C50 and the Beach Boys, yet his decades long history of remaking and doing soundalikes of BB classics should be seen as strictly for "fun".

So it's either all business or all fun with Mike? The soundalikes are not all business like the other activities?

Ya know, in a warped way I think it is his way of rewriting musical history. ‘Remove the original backing voices and production yet I can still sound the same.’ Strange I know, but it kinda makes sense.


Title: Re: Some recent thoughts/theories on C50 and possible potential reunions....
Post by: ♩♬🐸 Sorry Entertainer ♯♫♩🐇 on May 22, 2019, 07:48:45 PM
And we’ll have business business business til Sea World takes the reunion away


Title: Re: Some recent thoughts/theories on C50 and possible potential reunions....
Post by: CenturyDeprived on May 23, 2019, 12:37:23 AM
And we’ll have business business business til Sea World takes the reunion away

 :lol


Title: Re: Some recent thoughts/theories on C50 and possible potential reunions....
Post by: jeffh on May 23, 2019, 05:10:17 AM
Imagine if you will, what if it had been Brian who had pulled the plug on C50 ? Would there have been hundreds of posts of ill will and acrimony ? I think not.  While I'm not a huge Love fan, I do believe that a double standard exists. Had Brian ended the tour, there would mostly be excuses as to why he couldn't continue, most people would have "understood" his actions.


Title: Re: Some recent thoughts/theories on C50 and possible potential reunions....
Post by: HeyJude on May 23, 2019, 06:52:37 AM
Imagine if you will, what if it had been Brian who had pulled the plug on C50 ? Would there have been hundreds of posts of ill will and acrimony ? I think not.  While I'm not a huge Love fan, I do believe that a double standard exists. Had Brian ended the tour, there would mostly be excuses as to why he couldn't continue, most people would have "understood" his actions.

Check out all the old threads. This precise argument has been made numerous times, and I don't think it's really germane to the actual discussion of what actually happened. I mean, what if Bruce Johnston had burned all the Smile tapes? We can come up with a million ideas for what members *could have* done.

That being said, as I've answered many times, I would have been equally bummed and disappointed in any member of the band who nixed more reunion activity in the face of all the other members wanting to continue. My level of disappointment would also depend on the reasoning given for ending the reunion. I'd respect a full, honest explanation even in the midst of my disappointment.

Mike made the disagreeable decision, and also went about it in a way that, in my opinion, doesn't fully explain his reasoning. I think the reasoning is there buried in the midst of the litany of things he's brought up. And to the degree he has offered reasons, I think some of them are believable (if still disappointing), while many others make no sense.

But yeah, I get the point trying to be made here. The contention is that everybody is harder on Mike. I would argue that it's still his actions that are precipitating the reactions from fans. But also, yes, I do think Mike gets less of a benefit of the doubt when he does something that seems disagreeable to many fans. But there's a reason for that: His past actions/words/deeds. Brian and Al and some others have earned a TON more benefit of the doubt than Mike has. That all being said, I still take each event as it occurs, and I have no interest in blaming Mike for something that isn't his fault.


Title: Re: Some recent thoughts/theories on C50 and possible potential reunions....
Post by: guitarfool2002 on May 23, 2019, 07:53:26 AM
Forget hypotheticals and "what if's"...Maybe more slack would have been cut for Mike in terms of fan opinions if his "reasons" or excuses for walking away had been more consistent or even less in number than they turned out to be. From Fall 2012 when that first announcement hit the press, up to the publication of his book, and up to the present, fans have had to sift through multiple reasons to explain Mike's decisions. And some of them contradicted Mike's subsequent actions, while others just seem to come and go at random depending on who answers.

Anyone care to make a list of these reasons? Just a few paraphrased to start, from Mike and his more ardent supporters..."I don't want to risk overexposure by touring too much and end up like the Eagles". "Set end date". "Tour was losing money". "Was advised to give it a rest". "Melinda Wilson attaching Autotune devices to the mics". "Melinda Wilson disrespecting my family". "the No More Wilsons email". "Had to book shows because I had my own band to support". "Fulfilled my contractual obligations". "I wasn't allowed to write with Brian in a room". "Previous commitments". "Likes to run a 'lean-n-mean' touring operation". "Didn't happen like I was promised it would". "Fans can continue to see the Beach Boys as they've been touring for the past "x" years"

Meanwhile the majority of fans I think would agree that getting all surviving members from the 60's together in some capacity and getting original music and a group reunion tour out of them was one of the best things that has happened to this band and its fanbase since the original run in the 1960's. Yet Mike seems to be one of the only voices of negativity in the whole deal.

Maybe that's why he doesn't get the same amount of slack as others. For someone who pointed out how much of a team player he was going back to his days on a high school track team, Mike came off as the least "team" oriented of the group in these matters. And there seems to be a bag full of reasons that is available to reach in and pull one out randomly on demand.


Title: Re: Some recent thoughts/theories on C50 and possible potential reunions....
Post by: NateRuvin on May 23, 2019, 09:00:19 AM
I've also been wondering how much of an opinion Bruce held about all of this. He seemed to be enjoying the reunion as much as anyone else. I can't think of any indication that he didn't enjoy himself, other than him and Mike not attending the celebratory dinner. Did Bruce have a desire for things to return to the way they were, or did he continue with Mike after C50 simply out of convenience?

Does/did Bruce make more money in the M&B touring outfit? That would certainly be a motivation to return to the old way of doing things. But I can't really imagine Bruce is very worried about finances, having written his famous hit. You could argue there is more of a spotlight on him at the M&B shows considering he is one of two real Beach Boys, but I don't think his role in the band was diminished legacy-wise. It maybe was on stage, with other band members taking keyboard or vocal parts he would normally play, but having the original members together, in a weird way, actually solidified all of their legacies, and probably would have continued to do so. Like the whole thing with Mike going from Frankie Valli to Mick Jagger. The guys were getting the respect they deserved. Bruce was given Disney Girls and Wendy, just like the standard before C50. He probably has always had the option to play as much or as little keyboard as he wants since the 90's, so I can't imagine C50 was that different. He's usually clapping anyway, but I'll save that for another thread.

Could Bruce have made a stand against Mike, and really let Mike tour as "The Beach Boys" with no other Beach Boys but himself? If this happened, lets say Bruce wanted to stay with Brian, would Mike have seeked out a more permanent residence from David Marks or Dean Torrence? Or would he really have tried to sell himself as "The Beach Boys" while all of the other members continued in a band that couldn't use the name. I know it's just a hypothetical, but it's food for thought


Title: Re: Some recent thoughts/theories on C50 and possible potential reunions....
Post by: HeyJude on May 23, 2019, 09:07:02 AM
Bruce obviously has demonstrated that he follows whatever Mike does/decides.

As far as C50, he was posting BEFORE the reunion tour started on the BB Britain board, and as many have characterized it, he seemed almost *gleeful* in stating that come the end date of the tour, there would be *no more* reunion shows. Whether he was just stating the facts of the matter, or instead was also reinforcing his own preference, we can't say for sure. He certainly didn't seem bummed at the prospect of not being able to do more reunion shows. He did indeed seem weirdly kind of gleeful about the prospect.

But it's worth noting that Bruce Johnston was pretty much the only person in the organization that was saying, before the tour even started, that it definitively would not be continuing past its end date in 2012. Everybody else seemed to go to lengths to keep things ambiguous.

Bruce hasn't commented a great deal on the reunion since it ended. I recall an interview, probably during the tour?, where he seemed to be indicating Brian's guys couldn't keep up with the touring pace, kind of implying in my opinion that he was used to more rigorous work on the road. I remember thinking how ridiculous this was considering he was probably doing the *least* heavy lifting on stage of anybody in the band (backing or main members), including Brian.


Title: Re: Some recent thoughts/theories on C50 and possible potential reunions....
Post by: HeyJude on May 23, 2019, 09:08:29 AM
Bruce is a weird dude (to put it politely). Remember a few years before C50 when he said he *wouldn't* appear on stage if the band reunited? That he would instead watch from the audience? Wtf?



Title: Re: Some recent thoughts/theories on C50 and possible potential reunions....
Post by: Tony S on May 24, 2019, 03:38:37 AM
Saying Bruce is a strange dude is really an understatement. Because he certainly is. The reason he wants to stay in the Mike and Bruce band is because he does nothing in that band but clap hands and very very little on stage. And gets paid handsomely I'm sure. That's why he kisses Mike's butt all the time. It's his boss and it's a high-paying gig that he can be easily replaced at.


Title: Re: Some recent thoughts/theories on C50 and possible potential reunions....
Post by: RangeRoverA1 on May 24, 2019, 05:50:35 AM
Saying Bruce is a strange dude is really an understatement. Because he certainly is. The reason he wants to stay in the Mike and Bruce band is because he does nothing in that band but clap hands and very very little on stage. And gets paid handsomely I'm sure. That's why he kisses Mike's butt all the time. It's his boss and it's a high-paying gig that he can be easily replaced at.
200% agree. Thanks to say it!


Title: Re: Some recent thoughts/theories on C50 and possible potential reunions....
Post by: guitarfool2002 on May 24, 2019, 08:36:24 AM
Nice pivot Nate! Focus on Bruce.   ;D

Regarding Bruce and C50...he got paid his salary to perform as he does with Mike. Any corporate decisions were made outside his sphere, as he is not a member of BRI, nor was he a partner in 50 Big Ones. Not much more to be said, is there?

Would fans have asked for a refund if he didn't show up at the C50 shows? Doubt it.


Title: Re: Some recent thoughts/theories on C50 and possible potential reunions....
Post by: Rocker on May 24, 2019, 08:48:33 AM


Would fans have asked for a refund if he didn't show up at the C50 shows? Doubt it.



Well, personally I would have missed him. His voice is still quite strong (although some people say otherwise) and the blend of him and Al made for some Beach Boys magic during 2012. To me it wouldn't be a real Beach Boys reunion without Bruce, he's just one of them.


Title: Re: Some recent thoughts/theories on C50 and possible potential reunions....
Post by: Fall Breaks on May 24, 2019, 01:03:11 PM
 Agreed. The Bruce-Al blend was most noticeable, and most pleasant, to me in the verses, of all songs, "Surfin' Safari" during C50. Beach Boys magic, indeed.


Title: Re: Some recent thoughts/theories on C50 and possible potential reunions....
Post by: joe_blow on May 24, 2019, 01:22:10 PM
Agreed. The Bruce-Al blend was most noticeable, and most pleasant, to me in the verses, of all songs, "Surfin' Safari" during C50. Beach Boys magic, indeed.
Mainly because he makes sure his mic is always placed in the right spot.


Title: Re: Some recent thoughts/theories on C50 and possible potential reunions....
Post by: RubberSoul13 on May 24, 2019, 04:25:47 PM
Saying Bruce is a strange dude is really an understatement. Because he certainly is. The reason he wants to stay in the Mike and Bruce band is because he does nothing in that band but clap hands and very very little on stage. And gets paid handsomely I'm sure. That's why he kisses Mike's butt all the time. It's his boss and it's a high-paying gig that he can be easily replaced at.
200% agree. Thanks to say it!

I nearly agree. If Bruce were removed or left the band, I don't think he'd be replaced. He isn't doing anything on stage that can't be picked up by others already up there.


Title: Re: Some recent thoughts/theories on C50 and possible potential reunions....
Post by: Fall Breaks on May 24, 2019, 10:54:25 PM
Agreed. The Bruce-Al blend was most noticeable, and most pleasant, to me in the verses, of all songs, "Surfin' Safari" during C50. Beach Boys magic, indeed.
Mainly because he makes sure his mic is always placed in the right spot.
:lol


Title: Re: Some recent thoughts/theories on C50 and possible potential reunions....
Post by: NateRuvin on May 25, 2019, 01:06:31 AM
I totally find the clapping/prancing around the stage jokes funny as hell :lol

But in reality, yeah, Bruce's keyboard isn't too important (although seemingly important according my conversation to Totten), but his vocals are sure as hell important to The Beach Boys blend, in 1965 and still in 2019. Don't believe me? Check out this video of a Bruce-less Beach Boys show from 2017... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gizxcXadimQ
The band's vocals sound thinner, and quite frankly, less like The Beach Boys , and that's why Bruce has been a pretty crucial member, either vocally, instrumentally, or both for his entire tenure in the group.

Anyway, back to previous points...

1. At the end of the day I think Bruce continues to stay with Mike, and still perform at his age in general, for the following reasons... He obviously is a HUGE fan of The BBs as a fan, he seems to enjoy performing, looks like has a good time on stage (despite being a worn out d*ck after shows sometimes), and of course- the paycheck.

2. The demise of C50 being a "suits" oriented decision is obviously pretty unlikely, I think most reasonable people, would admit that the waters are pretty murky as to what happened, and it probably wasn't JUST Mike's fault.


Title: Re: Some recent thoughts/theories on C50 and possible potential reunions....
Post by: rab2591 on May 25, 2019, 05:26:15 AM
One thing I will say about Bruce: he added such an incredible vocal sound to The Beach Boys music. What I mean by this: while Mike and Brian do sound different, they also sound similar during certain moments...there is definite variation but their tones can sound similar (even though Brian's falsetto is completely unmatched by anyone). And perhaps this is due to them being related? But when Bruce comes into the mix, it is this really great and unique sound that adds a whole other dimension to the music. The end of GOK is a perfect example of this.

Bruce's vocals on TWGMTR stand out so much (in a good way), you can really tell it is Bruce. Idk, he just adds a really unique blend to the palette of vocals in The Beach Boys. I'm beyond glad he was brought on board.

I can't comment on his current stage voice or what he does on stage, as I don't keep up with Mike's version of the band. But if he's anything like Mike and Brian, I'm sure he is getting tired, his voice is getting a bit more worn. I swear that Al found the fountain of youth because that dude sounds like he's still 25 years old.


Title: Re: Some recent thoughts/theories on C50 and possible potential reunions....
Post by: guitarfool2002 on May 25, 2019, 09:47:15 AM
How murky is it, Nate? Mike didn't want to do anything further with Brian, Al, and David so they continued playing and recording together into the next few years while Mike went back to playing his kind of shows and complaining about C50.

When there were three original members who expressed interest in doing something together moving forward, playing or recording more material in some capacity as a core group of original BB's, and speaking positively about the experience...then there's Mike who was mostly negative on both the reunion album and tour and had no interest in doing more...how murky was it? Mike was the one who chose to walk and badmouth both the album and the reunion, period, end of story.

I don't know where the logic in suggesting otherwise is coming from.


Title: Re: Some recent thoughts/theories on C50 and possible potential reunions....
Post by: guitarfool2002 on May 25, 2019, 09:53:06 AM
Regarding my earlier comments about Bruce and C50, it was a reaction and follow-up to what HeyJude posted about Bruce's comments before the tour, and how he seemed less than thrilled and put out the impression that he couldn't wait until it was over. The follow-up was simply "what if" Bruce wasn't into doing it...would fans have been upset enough to ask for a refund if Bruce chose not to either participate or continue? And I said I doubt it. It wasn't a moratorium on Bruce's position in Mike's band, or C50, or whatever...just a comment that he seemed pretty "meh" about the reunion before it started, and if he felt that strongly about it and decided to sit it out, I don't think it would be a fatal blow to the success of it.

The draw of the reunion was and still would be seeing the guys who were practicing in various garages and rooms in Hawthorne sharing the stage...all surviving members. And that's what the fans got.