The Smiley Smile Message Board

Smiley Smile Stuff => General On Topic Discussions => Topic started by: NateRuvin on February 13, 2019, 09:14:20 AM



Title: Dean Torrence joining Mike's band?
Post by: NateRuvin on February 13, 2019, 09:14:20 AM
For a while now, I have thought that Dean Torrence would make a great addition to Mike's Beach Boys. Of course BRIAN, AL, DAVID, BLONDIE, and RICKY would be ideal, but given the band's politics and all that bullsh*t, I can really only see David or Dean really joining Mike  .... (although Al did hint at something at a recent show, discussed in his tour thread)


Anyway, I noticed that several articles promoting Beach Boys shows in spring of 2019 (https://journalrecord.com/2019/01/30/around-town-beach-boys-to-raise-funds-for-two-agencies/ ,  https://okcfox.com/news/local/the-beach-boys-to-play-benefit-concert-in-oklahoma-city) mention that Dean will be playing with The Beach Boys.

This might be, and probably is, just a Stamos-esque guest appearance situation. But for sake of conversation, let's say there was a great reception, or Dean really gelled with the band,  and got a permanent spot.  What could this mean about The Beach Boys current band, J&D's legacy, etc?

I'm going to get into the age old 'who invented CA sound' argument and others like that as little as possible... Many of you probably know how I feel about J&D, and their importance to the "California Sound" ,  or maybe you just saw my profile pic  :lol      Both Jan and Brian were pioneers of not only Surf music, but Pop in general. I'll leave it at that. In my opinion, the California Sound is a result of both Jan and Brian's, as well as others,  efforts.

Jan & Dean ripping off (copying, paying homage, whatever) The BBs can be traced all the way back to 1963, with their covers of Surfin and Surfin Safari. This was followed by a series of songs that, at the very least, were inspired by what The BBs were doing. But to be fair, Surfin, as well as other early BBs tunes, have very obvious J&D influences. OKAY- done with that,  I'll try to avoid the whole who created what argument behind at this point. The whole argument is also somewhat pointless, considering how many songs (hits, at that) Brian and Jan wrote together, and The BBs and J&D sang on together. Many people feel that Jan & Dean's music started to lose it's magic towards 65 and 66, I disagree, and think it just lost its cultural sweet spot, and because of Jan's accident, he was never truly given the chance to make his Pet Sounds or Pepper. (COS and SFARD were great efforts by both Jan and Dean, but between Jan's recovery and Dean's legal issues regarding his album, the whole situation was a mess) Because of this, J&D became remembered solely for the goofy Hot Rod/Surf stuff, and not for Jan being a serious Arranger/Producer like Brian Wilson and others... With the Dead Man's Curve movie and Surf/Oldies (probably Endless Summer induced) Nostalgia, J&D's legacy as second-tier Beach Boys was cemented. So by the time J&D began playing shows again, they started playing Beach Boys songs. In Bob Greene's book about J&D's touring, Dean justified this by saying there isn't enough J&D material to fill a show, and more importantly, that all of the music, as well as both J&D and The Beach Boys, are blended together in people's minds. I can attest to this. When I saw The Beach Boys perform Surf City or Little Old Lady, or Dean Torrence perform California Girls or Do It Again, no one in the audience seemed to know the difference, and sang along as if it was to the original artist. There have been countless compilations (I own many) of Beach Boys and J&D hits packaged together. Not only do the songs fit nicely together, but it is probably financially savvy to have an album with JAN AND DEAN and THE BEACH BOYS.

Why does this all matter? Why did I just delve into this history and politics?

I'm very fascinated by the current status of the touring operations of The BBs and J&D for this reason. In August of 2018, I saw "The Beach Boys" featuring only Mike Love and Bruce Johnston and "The Jan & Dean Beach Party" featuring only Dean Torrence. But did a single person in the audience care or even seem to notice? Not really. It seems like they  remember the harmonies, the falsetto, the lyrics about surfing and girls, but the men on the album covers, or who stand on the stage, don't really matter. Hell, The BBs were able to continue touring easy as pie after the deaths of Carl and Dennis, and "on and off statuses" we'll call it of Brian, Al, and David, without any hesitation or audiences really caring that much. Can you imagine a Beatles with only Paul and Ringo? Or a Stones with only Jagger? Maybe it would totally work, and people really only do care about the music, and not the performers. But something tells me people would be much more angry at Paul McCartney and a backing band playing as "The Beatles", than Mike Love and a backing band playing as "The Beach Boys". There are many oldies acts that have the "mike and bruce" format, such as The Temptations and The Drifters, so I can understand why it works for Mike Love, and especially for Dean Torrence, who like I said has been cemented as an oldies act. But The Beatles and the Stones are remembered as Classic Rock, a more prestigious remembrance.  The Beach Boys tread this weird gray area between Rock and Oldies, and they have since the 70's! C50 almost totally cemented them as the definitive Classic Rock act, but the collapse of it, and Mike's "Now and Then" tour and UTL disc two, put them right back in the Oldies bin....

Hopefully you can now see why this such a fascinating situation. Is Dean just a famous guest star?yeah, probably ... But if he joined the group (and I do remember reading that he actually did for a while, while Bruce was sick) how could that impact the way The Beach Boys are perceived? Or would it even? I can almost gurantee not a single audience member truly cared about the transition from Christian Love to Foskett as rhythm guitarist  after C50 (for example).

In the public eyes, are The Beach Boys just an oldies act whose songs we love, but faces we can't recall, or are they a Classic Rock band who's members obtain God-like status??

and where do Jan & Dean fall into this?

I'd love to hear your thoughts.


Title: Re: Dean Torrence joining Mike's band?
Post by: Juice Brohnston on February 13, 2019, 09:57:31 AM
I think the point that there are probably large numbers of people who go to The Beach Boys concerts, not really knowing, or caring about who's on stage, might be the very reason adding Dean as a regular to the roster might not make sense. This from a purely financial, as opposed to any artistic or 'credibility' angle.

If Mike is running a fairly lean operation, what kind of compensatory agreement would Dean be looking for. If Dean can book his own shows under the J&D banner, can he take home more than being part of The Beach Boys touring outfit?

Personally, I'd be good with Dean in the band!!


Title: Re: Dean Torrence joining Mike's band?
Post by: mtaber on February 13, 2019, 10:42:37 AM
Maybe Mike can sue for songwriting credits for all the Jan and Dean hits!

Then Rocky and Ron can put together another book...

ENDLESS SIDEWALK!  An inside look on how Rocky saved Jan Berry!


Title: Re: Dean Torrence joining Mike's band?
Post by: HeyJude on February 13, 2019, 12:08:19 PM
There are a number of angles to look at when stewing on the idea of Dean Torrence in 2019 joining Mike’s licensed Beach Boys.

First, in modern-day industry terms, adding Dean wouldn’t bring in any additional revenue or better bookings. Dean has far fewer bookings than Mike presently, and the gigs he plays are also lower-tier. Up until Al rejoined Brian’s band, Al, David Marks, and Dean were all doing gigs in various permutations. They still do, though Al obviously has done few in the last few years. If Mike added Dean as essentially an *additional* act on the bill, perhaps that would get a bit more money out of some promoters working on multi-act oldies shows. But if like Dean Torrence replaces a guy in Mike’s backing band, I don’t think it brings any more money.

Performance-wise, while I appreciate Dean and I would assume he’s a competent guitar player and might still have an okay mid-range singing voice, I don’t think he’d bring anything to a “Beach Boys” show in any permutation, in terms of the nuts and bolts of the music and vocals.

Dean presumably would indeed have far less if any political baggage compared to any actual Beach Boys joining the band. Dean has played gigs with both Mike and Al (and Dave) separately. But this is true for literally almost anybody on the planet other than, mainly, Al an Brian.

Going back to Jan & Dean doing predominantly Beach Boys material when going back out on the road in the late 70s/early 80s and on, I’d have to agree with what Howie Edelson mentioned in a J&D thread a while back. Jan & Dean were essentially a farm league version of the “Beach Boys”, and were doing very low-end gigs, and were touring essentially a near-Beach Boys show, but without a license. Dean noting how the catalogs are conflated is not an incorrect assertion, but it is a lame and lazy one. As Howie mentioned in passing, it’s actually surprising BRI didn’t send J&D cease and desist letters for touring the Beach Boys’ show without a license. I’m sure the goodwill between the bands (and J&D not exactly burning up the touring circuit) dictated that never happened, but the only reason “name” bands would typically add in new members culled from “tribute band” variants would be to bring in a strong performer to carry a show (e.g. bands like Journey and Boston getting tribute band singers as lead singers).

I just don’t see any upside for anyone for Dean joining Mike’s band, other than Dean maybe having more steady work and everybody feeling “oh wow, look, Dean’s in the Beach Boys now!” This isn’t like Joe Walsh joining the Eagles. Heck, this isn’t even like Mike Campbell joining Fleetwood Mac.

Again, no disrespect to Dean. All the BBs seem to like him, and I have no problem with him popping up at shows and guesting. I have no vested interest in what he does with Mike’s Beach Boys, but objectively, I see very little upside to it on any level.

And frankly, while it was acknowledged that Dean joining wouldn’t be the same as an actual Beach Boy, I do think when Mike starts adding people to his band or otherwise featuring people in his show, it’s not invalid to point out the irony of bringing in, say, John Stamos while Brian and Al aren’t there, or of singing along to tapes of Dennis or Carl, resulting in the paradox of a 2010s “Beach Boys” concert featuring the deceased Carl and Dennis, but not the still-living and active Al and Brian. 

As for the actual shows taking place, as far as I can tell it’s indeed an extended “guest” run sort of thing.


Title: Re: Dean Torrence joining Mike's band?
Post by: NateRuvin on February 13, 2019, 01:23:39 PM
Hey Jude,

I'll try to reply point by point, to my best ability without getting carried away.

I agree that adding Dean, wouldn't provide a huge increase in revenue. Who knows what the cost would be to add another member to the roster for lodging, travel, and food, let alone Dean's equipment. Nonetheless, if Dean became a "Beach Boy" or got a spot in the show, I can see promoters, and even Mike himself, capitalizing on having another, well, legend on stage. I'm interested to see how a Jan & Dean set during Mike's show would work. They've played Surf City and Little Old Lady for years, you could round that out with Dead Man's Curve, Drag City, New Girl In School and maybe put Barbara Ann in that part of the set (Afterall, it was a J&D song first!). That could be a nice little set to pay tribute to J&D's contribution to Pop music. I'd say Dean has earned it. But honestly, I think Dean playing a similar role to Stamos is what's likely to happen. Him at the front of the stage singing and strumming his guitar with Mike and Bruce. I assume Surf City will be in the set, at the very least.

Funny you mention Dean's performance skills. His singing gets criticized by many on here. I think he has one of the signature voices of the California sound. Not as iconic as Mike's nasal lead or Carl's smooth delivery, but you can't tell me that Dean jumping into falsetto at 0:52 in this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMUsYHZgZ-U), doesn't bring a smile to your face. The fact that Dean can still reach those notes is impressive. I actually talked to him about it, and he told me he needs to take breaks between shows to maintain his voice- doesn't sound ideal for Mike's band. Anywhoo, Dean can still competently cover falsetto parts, which he did on most, if not all the songs when I saw him August. He could take some of the falsetto parts sung by Foskett and co on a whim, I'm sure. He's been singing these songs for 50 years. As for his guitar skills, Dean's guitar has always been completely muted during shows. Most of the time he isn't even plugged into an amp, like in the video I linked above. He just strums the guitar to compensate for awkwardness, same as BW with a bass or piano. Although according to Bob Greene's book, he does know how to play piano and guitar well. Funny that the BBs world features so many underutilized instrumentalists... Bruce, Al, Brian, and Dean all have instrumental chops they don't show off onstage these days...

Dean, Stamos, and Video Wilsons being present (maybe all together sometime soon!) without Brian, Al, or David being there, at face value is quite strange and unsettling. Unfortunately, the BBs world is very complicated, and it's not easy to get everyone on one stage together. Like I have said many times on here, The BBs touring group has literally always been changing. From the rotation between Brian, Al, and Dave all the way in 1962 to the swap of Ike for Keith as bassist most recently. I'm not sure how long the band has ever had the same members! Correct me if wrong but maybe somewhere in the 90's, there was a stretch of the same  lineup? Probably not, as Carl was already bringing in guys like Phillip Bardowell ... Maybe it was the pre-C50 lineup Mike had. He seemed to have had that for quite a few years without change. ANYWAY, my point is that I try not to get frustrated about principle members being absent, when I realize that I could have seen The Beach Boys live in 1963 without Brian , David or Al!

Maybe I am actually part of the crowd I talk about that doesn't care about principles being absent. Sure, I wasn't in blissful unawareness, but I've had a blast every time I've seen Mike's band. They put on a great show, and when I was there, I really felt like I was watching The Beach Boys. Or perhaps, was listening to The BEach Boys! :lol

I could go on and on all day about this. Despite his vocal pitchy-ness or coasting on guitar, Dean is a super talented guy, who's voice embodies the classic Surf sound. I'm glad to see him on board, and wouldn't even mind if he got a permanent spot.

Why would Mike add Dean? If I try to get inside Mike's mind I'd say Dean provides authenticity and he's a utility. Weather or not people know the history, Dean certainly looks like a Beach Boy , and not to mention when he opens his mouth, you know you're hearing classic California music. He also could fill in on lead and backing vocals easily, probably on guitar too, if he's up to the challenge.  I'm really interested to see where this goes, and to see when he starts joining the band.


Title: Re: Dean Torrence joining Mike's band?
Post by: NateRuvin on February 13, 2019, 01:49:55 PM
And as for J&D's Phase II show just being a cheap BBs knockoff show, I'd say it's more complicated than that. I don't think for a single minute that J&D set out to tour as a BBs tribute band. Keep in mind that after Jan's accident, music was all he had. It was the silver lining that he was working towards. Having Jan onstage was a miracle, just like how we feel with Brian Wilson. Jan went through hell, and to see him performing again, should inspire everyone. That's a huge part of why Phase II worked in my opinion. Jan came back from Dead Man's Curve. America knew the story after the TV movie in the 70's, and that story, combined with the previously mentioned haze/confusion/blur of BBs/J&D, gave them the perfect opportunity to hit the road. Jan had about 6 or 7 leads in a 30+ J&D concert, and he practiced constantly to remember the words to those. I don't think Jan would have physically been able to perform 30+ Jan & Dean songs, most of which had lead vocals by him. Not to mention, that while I'm a die hard J&D fan, I can understand that a huge audience of people doesn't really want to hear "Schlock Rod" in the same way they wouldn't want to hear "Ding Dang". The J&D shows of the 70's and onwards began as about 50/50 J&D/BBs material and gradually became filled with more and more BBs tunes. Songs like "Sail On Sailor" and "In My Room" started showing up in the sets. These songs had nothing to do with J&D. At least "Little Deuce Coupe", "Barbara Ann" "Little Honda", "I Get Around", "Help Me Rhonda" all make sense, since they are somehow tied to J&D's Phase I career either in the studio or onstage. It wasn't at all out of line to see J&D singing "Little Deuce Coupe" or "I Get Around", because they had made these songs their own in the 60's. But "God Only Knows" or "I Can Hear Music"? Stretching things a little.

But after hearing about my girlfriend's opinion of the Dean Torrence concert, it all made sense. We were talking about which songs were highlights. I think she said "Wouldn't It Be Nice"  or something, that stuck out to me as a clear BBs song. I said something like "I wish they played more J&D songs, over half the show was BBs!" To which she replied "Really?" She just couldn't really tell the BBs songs from the J&D songs. And it's not like she's unfamiliar with them. She knew every word to every song. She listens to me go on and on about the BBs and J&D. She's watched documentaries, been to concerts, etc... and yet, if I put on "Heart And Soul" or "Don't Worry Baby" she would just as likely say they're both BBs songs, as both J&D songs. I have a feeling this is the situation with most people, otherwise J&D's Phase II would've been very different.  A BBs or J&D show is about the perfect harmonies, soaring falsettos, great arrangements, pounding drums, and reverb soaked guitars on a warm summer night. All BBs related touring operations capitalize on this basic setup. At the end of the day the current Beach Boys show, Brian Wilson "Greatest Hits" show, and "Jan &Dean Beach Party" show feature largely the same set.

As a J&D fan, I wish they played more of their own songs. But as a realist, knowing Jan's situation, it's pretty easy to understand why they took the route they did.


Title: Re: Dean Torrence joining Mike's band?
Post by: Emdeeh on February 13, 2019, 01:50:31 PM
There was a time in the early '80s when they toured together as Mike & Dean.


Title: Re: Dean Torrence joining Mike's band?
Post by: Pretty Funky on February 13, 2019, 02:18:28 PM
Don’t they tour some of the same venues on a yearly/bi yearly type of deal? Perhaps it’s more presenting a different show than they had the last time they passed through?


Title: Re: Dean Torrence joining Mike's band?
Post by: Steve Latshaw on February 14, 2019, 09:52:47 AM
The assertion that the phase II Jan & Dean Shows of the late 70s to early 2000s were an "unauthorized Beach Boys show" is ridiculous.  Both Jan & Dean and the Beach Boys covered each others songs in the 60s and have continued that exchange over the last 5 decades.  In terms of the Jan & Dean post accident set lists, Jan sang most of the leads.  And the more he struggled, certain songs were dropped. Jennie Lee was an early casualty.  Ditto Ride the Wild Surf, which by the late 80s became an instrumental band intro.   Doing Beach Boys covers was a no brainer, to fill the time.  The audiences ate it up and the band loved performing them.

As for being a "farm team," Dean himself referred to the duo as that very thing... but they were playing huge venues in the 80s and 90s... Three River Stadium... the Daytona Beach Band Shell shows, some of them on the same bill with the Beach Boys.  It's all documented in Bob Greene's wonderful book WHEN WE GET TO SURF CITY.  They also managed to be the first western rock group to play Red China, which is an amazing and bizarre tale of its own.

Quality of the show?  I saw Jan & Dean in the summer of 1981, in DuQuoin, Illinois.  I saw The Beach Boys a couple of months later, in Terre Haute, Indiana.  Anyone who saw any of those shows that year knows who put on the better concert, lol...


Title: Re: Dean Torrence joining Mike's band?
Post by: NateRuvin on February 14, 2019, 10:16:18 AM
Steve Latshaw, I couldn't have put it better myself. J&D and The BBs have been playing each other's songs since the very beginning. I think the ratio of J&D vs BBs material in Phase II shows has much more to do with Jan's condition than people think. Hell, I never knew Jan, but I definitely think he'd rather play his own hits that he crafted like "Jennie Lee" or "I Found A Girl" (early casualties like you mentioned) over "Sail On Sailor" or "Kokomo" which he had nothing to do with in the slightest. As I mentioned earlier, "Help Me Rhonda", "Barbara Ann", "I Get Around" all make sense in a J&D context due to the group's studio/stage history. And as for J&D just playing small venues, like you said, they had some massive gigs detailed in Bob Greene's book. J&D's Phase II touring operation was not simply a BBs tribute band, and people who assert that notion probably don't understand Jan's condition.

You could make a better argument that Dean's current show is a cheap BBs tribute, but I don't think it's a strong one. When I saw Dean over the summer I think the ratio was something like 6 J&D songs and 25 BBs tunes, and even Eagles. Hard to remember. There's also crossover with stuff like "Little Deuce Coupe" or "Surfin Safari" which J&D recorded and released on their albums. So now You could easily make the argument that, due to that ratio, Dean is simply putting on a cheap BBs tribute. Not that easy ...   like I said earlier, my girlfriend, and probably most of the audience, couldn't tell the J&D songs from BBs songs. They didn't go for Dean solely, it wasn't marketed that way. The website and marquee all said "Jan & Dean Beach Party". That's what people went for. That name in itself is very interesting, because the "Jan & Dean" implies a J&D show, but the "Beach Party" is what, I think, gives the band as much leeway in terms of playing non-J&D material. People went for a fun(fun,fun) J&D Beach Party, and that's what they got. "Dead Man's Curve", "Surfin USA", "Hotel California", all songs by different artists, yet, it all culminated into what truly felt like a Jan & Dean Beach Party. That, in itself, is different than what you get at a Beach Boys or BW show. There are obvious levels of sonic quality (BWs band is like a f*ckin rock n roll orchestra!) , but it's a real disservice to the work that Dean, David Logeman, Aaron Broering, Chris Farmer, Philip Bardowell (also David Marks, , Randell Kirsch, Gary Griffin, Bob Greene, Al Jardine, Jeff Baxter, who also play with the Allstars) put in, to simply toss his show away as a knock off without a license.


Title: Re: Dean Torrence joining Mike's band?
Post by: BeachBoysCovers on February 14, 2019, 10:36:51 AM
The idea that they could sue Jan & Dean for basically just playing the same set the The Beach Boys did surely would suggest they should be able to sue every tribute band as well.


Title: Re: Dean Torrence joining Mike's band?
Post by: HeyJude on February 15, 2019, 07:06:58 AM
I'll respond in more detail soon, but folks, the characterization of the later era J&D shows as de facto Beach Boys shows is obviously a bit hyperbolic.

BRI obviously would have had a very difficult time actually successfully suing J&D (the promotion of the shows would have been the target in such cases rather than solely the setlist itself; I'm well aware that J&D could have done a set full of Elvis songs if they had wanted), and as I mentioned, they had an ongoing relationship (in some cases a business relationship) with at least Dean in that same time period. I don't think a lawsuit was ever likely to happen. My point was more that, considering other legal action BRI took or considered over the years, a closely-associated band performing a setlist that *was* in some cases more Beach Boys than the actual band itself would lead to a not-unwarranted moment of pause for BRI.

Apart from any unlikely legal action, I absolutely think it was lame and embarrassing and opportunistic to tour as "Jan & Dean" and rely HEAVILY on the song catalog of a SINGLE other band. J&D weren't just augmenting their small collection of well-known hits with an all-purpose oldies show. They leaned HEAVILY specifically on Beach Boys songs. Even some of the original J&D-associated songs from the 60s were BB-related, including "Sidewalk Surfin'."

The Beach Boys NEVER did a show made up for more J&D songs than BB songs.

Also, comparing specifically the 1981 BB tour, roundly noted by many fans and scholars as the pre-1998 nadir of the band's touring career, with a J&D show is rather selective. Having said that, of the MANY BB and J&D shows from that era I've seen and/or viewed/listened to recordings from in that era, I'd say J&D shows were not markedly better. And certainly, the J&D setlist was pretty uninteresting from examples I've seen, relying on a small selection of the well-known J&D songs, and then rounding it out predominantly with well-known Beach Boys hits.

It's far from a perfect analogy, but imagine the Stones kind of tanking after the late 60s and then going back out in 1980 on tour and doing 20-song setlists where 12 of the songs were Beatles songs. LAME.

I *absolutely* understand why J&D did the shows that way. They wanted to tour (and I'll even acknowledge the theoretical and sometimes practical use of touring to keep Jan active, etc.), and didn't have enough recognizable songs to even fill out a *short* setlist. They were/are most associated (and sometimes conflated with) the Beach Boys among  the most casual of music consumers, so that's what they performed. I don't even have a problem with J&D having done such tours and setlists so much as I'm simply saying it should also be correctly characterized as artistically pretty lame.


Title: Re: Dean Torrence joining Mike's band?
Post by: HeyJude on February 15, 2019, 07:18:03 AM
The J&D story is absolutely fascinating, including that later era of touring as retold by Bob Greene.

In the 80s and 90s, did Jan & Dean ever book stadiums on their own? Meaning, as the sole act and/or as the headliner? I recall the 80s and 90s being a lot of fairs, amusement parks, clubs, event openings in parking lots, and, on the higher end, indoor theaters, etc. They undoubtedly appeared at some larger venues as openers for other bands and/or as part of a multi-act "oldies" show and the like.

But did 50,000 people ever fill a stadium in the 80s or 90s for a solely-Jan & Dean show? Did they ever even fill a 15,000-ish seat indoor arena during that time on their own?

Any time they did a gig with the Beach Boys, I'm pretty sure the vast majority of folks were there to see the BBs.

Even the days of the BBs filling stadiums was largely over by the end of the 70s, notwithstanding cases where they piggybacked onto baseball games in the 80s and 90s, where they main draw was the game with a free BB show thrown in after the game. Even the days of filling indoor arenas in the US was waning by the 80s (with some exceptions of course).

Now, what *would* be interesting to know is what kind of setlist J&D did when they toured  for the BBs in the 70s/80s/90s. I would imagine they had to drop most BB songs that overlapped with the actual BB setlist, separate from songs they performed together of course.  



Title: Re: Dean Torrence joining Mike's band?
Post by: Steve Latshaw on February 15, 2019, 08:30:59 AM

"Now, what *would* be interesting to know is what kind of setlist J&D did when they toured  for the BBs in the 70s/80s/90s. I would imagine they had to drop most BB songs that overlapped with the actual BB setlist, separate from songs they performed together of course.  "

They only toured once with the Beach Boys... in August-September 1978.  For the Lakeland, FL show, they did Surf City, Dead Man's Curve, Little Old Lady and Barbara Ann during the encore.  For any individual shows where they shared billing with the Beach Boys in the 80s or 90s I doubt they changed the set list for any reason.  Tour set lists remained essentially the same for decades; any deviance from the regular order would throw Jan off.
The set list for the 1982 LP ONE SUMMER NIGHT LIVE, which was recorded in the fall of 1981, is pretty typical for the 80s... and a wildly entertaining show, when compared to the 1981 Beach Boys.

CRACK THAT WHIP
NEW GIRL IN SCHOOL
JENNY LEE
BABY TALK
LINDA
DRAG CITY/
LITTLE DEUCE COUPE/SHUT DOWN
HIDE YOUR LOVE AWAY
BACK IN THE USSR
SURFIN USA
HONOLULU LULU
DO YOU WANNA DANCE/DANCE DANCE DANCE
RIDE THE WILD SURF
SIDEWALK SURFIN'
HELP ME RHONDA
CALIFORNIA GIRLS
LITTLE OLD LADY FROM PASADENA
DEAD MAN'S CURVE
GOOD VIBRATIONS
I GET AROUND
FUN FUN FUN
SURF CITY
BARBARA ANN

Creating great art was not Dean's intent at that stage.  He knew that was impossible given Jan's condition.  By 1981, audiences were largely made up of new fans - people who had seen the TV movie.  That audience identified it all as California music... Beach Boys... Jan & Dean... whoever.  They didn't differentiate.  The whole point of the exercise was to get bookings.  Lots of bookings.  And provide a good, solid, surf and drag oldies show for 60 or 90 minutes, whatever the promoter wanted to buy.  And to keep the price down; you could book Jan & Dean for less than the Beach Boys cost you.  In 1978, when Dean was contemplating going back on the road with Jan and Papa Doo Run Run, he told me the idea was to mix it up... do the Jan & Dean hits that everyone knew and expected... and to do a certain amount of Beach Boys covers, because it would give the audience the California music they expected, and would give Jan a chance to lay back and sing bg vocals between his leads on J&D songs that he struggled with every day.  It was a winning formula and it worked for them for 25 years.


Title: Re: Dean Torrence joining Mike's band?
Post by: HeyJude on February 15, 2019, 08:54:29 AM
I'd be curious to know if J&D ever did a double booking with the Beach Boys outside of the 1978 tour, meaning playing at least a full "opening act"-length setlist, and actually went up on stage and did like 10 songs that the Beach Boys were about to come on stage and also perform within the hour.  

That would be supremely odd. I would guess/hope any shows where J&D opened or were otherwise featured on a BB show, they did a shortened set of their own stuff and then maybe a combined bit on "Barbara Ann", etc.

Regarding Dean's ethos for putting together his shows and setlists, I don't think there's any disagreement. What he did made total sense. It just isn't artistically particularly interesting. The BB shows and setlists of the 80s and 90s could often be rather stale and uninteresting, but they did largely their own songs (and songs they covered on record), only occasionally delving into actual covers they had never released on record. "Surf City" was perhaps the longest-standing exception in the setlist, and I know a lot of BB fans (not casual fans obviously) were supremely annoyed at getting "Surf City" while the band ignored most post-1968-ish material during those years.

But the ability of the BBs to do their own songs for 90-120 minutes, and to occasionally dig into a huge back catalog, and actually intermittently perform *new* songs, all relate to how much more substantive the Beach Boys were than a band like J&D. I don't want to get back into the same rut where some folks are bluntly honest about J&D and then some other folks feel the need to defend, but J&D and the BBs were something more akin to Gerry & The Pacemakers and the Beatles. No, it's far from a perfect analogy.

But Jan's obviously tragic accident and subsequent struggles were not the *only* reason J&D didn't have a lot of substance to offer on stage. They just weren't as successful and talented as other bands like the Beach Boys, even back in the heyday of J&D. J&D were already in a rut artistically and commercially before Jan's accident, right? I'm not saying they never wrote or recorded anything of interest after Jan's accident or after the hits stopped happening. But the catalog on the whole wasn't full of albums and albums full of unknown gems.

As for the quality of the J&D show setting aside setlist considerations, I'd say something like this from 1980: ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXm3cL-mjdE ) is pretty on-par with 1981 Beach Boys (give or take, depending on which 1981 BB show we're talking about), and far less substantive than 1980 or 1982 Beach Boys shows. I'll take Knebworth or DC 1980 over this any day. I'll frankly even take the awful 1981 Queen Mary show, where Brian sounds okay on the mid-range vocals, Dennis actually does a pretty solid job on drums, Al is solid if unremarkable, and some of the backing band (Carter, Figueroa, Meros) do a fine job.

Also take a look at something like this short 1986 J&D show:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSOXHPrwo98

It's literally a farm league BB show, including featuring *multiple* at-the-time former and future Beach Boys touring band members. And it's less interesting and more generic-sounding than even a 1986 Beach Boys show (which wasn't exactly their peak either).


Title: Re: Dean Torrence joining Mike's band?
Post by: relx on February 15, 2019, 10:14:24 AM
As someone who became a J&D fan after seeing Deadmans Curve as a twelve-year old, I find this discussion fascinating.

First off, Dean is not going to join the BB's for one simple reason: money. Dean and Mike are good friends, and like Mike, Dean is a very bottom line guy, and is not going to tour with Mike unless he gets paid, probably alot more than any of the current BB's back-up guys. You could make the argument that Dean should get paid whatever Bruce does, since he is an iconic name of sixties California music. Plus, at the age of 79 in a month, I don't think Dean is going out on the road for 150 dates a year.

As far as the J&D setlist, it's a complicated issue. Part of it was that Jan sang lead on almost all of their songs, and was no longer capable of doing that after the accident. Also, Dean, post-accident, wasn't doing things that much differently than Jan had done pre-accident, as their 1960s era sets were filled with cover songs. Listen to the "live" album, Command Performance, which is filled with BB, Beatles and even Everly Brothers songs, or the original version of Filet of Sole. Jan and Dean's live sets had always been a combination of their biggest hits, and covers of other artists. While Jan was more artistic-minded than Dean, he wasn't Bob Dylan--or Brian Wilson. Even after the accident, I doubt that Jan was putting much pressure on Dean to do deep cuts.

Now, could you put together a 60 90-minute set made up mostly of popular J&D songs? Yes, I think you could:

Jennie Lee
Baby Talk
Linda
Surf City
Drag City
Honolulu Lulu
Deadmans Curve
New Girl in School
Barbara Ann
Little Old Lady From Pasadena
Sidewalk Surfin
Ride the Wild Surf

That's a dozen songs right there, all of which they regularly did in concert from 1979-1981. You can also add in the following:

Popsicle
Anaheim, Azuza
Batman

The first two are fun songs which I think an audience could easily get into, (Popsicle reached #21 on the Billboard charts). And, the Micheal Keaton Batman movies came out in the late 1980s, so people would probably have been into Batman.

You could also thrown in

Heart and Soul (reached #25)
You Really Know How to Hurt A Guy (#27)
I Found A Girl (#30)

That's a total of 18 songs, most of which were top 40 hits. If you throw in a few BB songs that J&D did in the original era such as Little Deuce Coupe, Surfin Safari, etc. and even a Beatles song like You've Got to Hide Your Love Away, which they did before and after Jan's accident, and you have a nice 20-25 song setlist that is heavy on J&D songs, but which would also appeal to a non-hardcore audience. Of course, they weren't realistically going to do many of these songs after Jan's accident, but its not true that they didn't have the back catalog to do a J&D-heavy set. I am not arguing that they were anywhere near the quality of the BB's, but J&D were popular in their time, with a bunch of hit songs. (And I didn't even mention many deeper cuts that I, as a fan, would have loved to hear.) After 1966, they were essentially silenced as an act, with no active presence to keep their backlist in the public eye. Even during their less popular period, the BBs always toured and released records.

Frankly, Dean just didn't care about J&D songs. He had a lot of resentment towards Jan after the accident, and often publicly criticized Jan and Dean songs. This resentment, coupled with the fact that Dean was not involved in anyway with the creation of many of these songs, meant he had no interest in putting a large number of Jan and Dean songs in the set.

Now, in terms of quality, I would put a post-accident J&D set in the same league as a current Brian Wilson show. Jan, the creative force behind J&D, was a shell of himself after the accident, and could not sing or run a show the way he could beforehand. Thus, you were not going to get high quality vocals from Jan after the accident. The same is true with Brian today, where you are really going to see the back-up band and Al carry the load, with little expectation that you are going to get a solid vocal performance from Brian. Now, other than Papa Doo Run Run in the late 1970s/early 1980s, Jan and Dean did not have the same quality back-up band that Brian has. I actually think the Ontario concert you posted is pretty good. Papa is really driving the tunes, and Jan was much better at keeping up during the early days of post-accident touring, as he was younger, in better shape, and both he and Dean were probably thrilled at being out there again. Also, neither Jan and Dean were close to the vocalists that the BBs were. Even the worst BB shows usually had Carl and Al, and even Mike was on and not too nasal, is better than either J&D as a singer.


Title: Re: Dean Torrence joining Mike's band?
Post by: Juice Brohnston on February 15, 2019, 10:46:03 AM
Off topic, a bit, but does anyone know how Dean had done, financially, over the years.

I have a lot of respect for the guy, as it seems he always hustled, not relying on being a 'rock star'. He made use of his education with Kitty Hawk, and I seem to remember an interview where he said he was buying and selling real estate.

Just curious if he is well set up on the $ side.


Title: Re: Dean Torrence joining Mike's band?
Post by: HeyJude on February 15, 2019, 10:52:00 AM
I’m someone who has been very honest and blunt about Brian Wilson shows; I don’t tend to be overly-forgiving of his shortcomings on stage. Yes, Brian’s show over the last 20 years has indeed at various moments started to veer into “Weekend at Bernie’s” territory.

But I wouldn’t put Brian’s shows in the same category as a post-accident J&D show. First, I’d say Brian on a good night, especially in the early 2000s, was both better vocally and more animated and a better emcee than Jan (or Dean) was at their shows. I’m not out to criticize Jan and what he could or couldn’t do at shows; I think some folks back then and maybe even now weren’t fully aware of how dire his condition was due to that accident. That he resurfaced at all was absolutely commendable. But if we’re going to be honest, Jan’s vocals were almost always challenged in a far different and more distracting way than Brian has usually sounded.

I saw Brian on the 2000 PS tour, and he was not only in good voice, but carried the show and was full of energy, having back-and-forths with the audience. I’ve never seen a J&D show where anything like that happened.

And then yes, on top of that, everything else about Brian’s show is in a different stratosphere than even the best J&D gig. Setlists with full album performances and deep cuts. Full-time guests in later years that added true substance to the show (Al, Blondie, Dave). And a backing band that easily outstrips even the best of J&D’s backing band. The Papa guys were fine, and then later when they had guys like Cowsill, Farmer, Griffin, etc., those were solid musicians. Many of the same guys who to this day play with Mike, or Al, or the various “Surf City All Star” lineups with varying combos of Al, Dean, and David Marks. But those were not bands that could have pulled off “Pet Sounds” or “Smile” in full.

Regarding the J&D setlist and the idea of playing mostly or all J&D cuts, I absolutely agree they *could* have done that. They could have padded the known J&D songs with other tracks of their own rather than like 10 Beach Boys songs they had nothing to do with. They could have even used backing guys as surrogate singers for songs that neither Jan nor Dean could or wanted to sing. But they (or Dean) chose not to, obviously. It’s why some J&D gigs in later years could be pretty sad; one couldn’t say “well, Jan is trying but really struggling, but at least the band and setlist are mind-blowing!”


Title: Re: Dean Torrence joining Mike's band?
Post by: Joel Goldenberg on February 15, 2019, 11:06:40 AM
I'd pay good money to hear Mike and Dean harmonize on Submarine Races. ;D


Title: Re: Dean Torrence joining Mike's band?
Post by: Steve Latshaw on February 15, 2019, 02:40:30 PM
<<Tand then later when they had guys like Cowsill, Farmer, Griffin, etc., those were solid musicians. Many of the same guys who to this day play with Mike, or Al, or the various “Surf City All Star” lineups with varying combos of Al, Dean, and David Marks. But those were not bands that could have pulled off “Pet Sounds” or “Smile” in full.>>

Gary Griffin has been pulling off Pet Sounds in full for the last few years in Brian's band.  And John Cowsill's drumming was a highlight of the 2012 C50 reunion tour.


Title: Re: Dean Torrence joining Mike's band?
Post by: HeyJude on February 15, 2019, 09:16:07 PM
<<Tand then later when they had guys like Cowsill, Farmer, Griffin, etc., those were solid musicians. Many of the same guys who to this day play with Mike, or Al, or the various “Surf City All Star” lineups with varying combos of Al, Dean, and David Marks. But those were not bands that could have pulled off “Pet Sounds” or “Smile” in full.>>

Gary Griffin has been pulling off Pet Sounds in full for the last few years in Brian's band.  And John Cowsill's drumming was a highlight of the 2012 C50 reunion tour.

Yes, I'm well aware that Griffin is in Brian's band and that Cowsill was on C50. What I'm saying is that band in that 1986 clip, while professional, could not have adequately pulled off the entirety of PS or Smile. It just wasn't that type of band. I've never felt a need to compare 80s J&D backing bands to Brian's 1999-present band. I drew the comparison in response to the assertion that J&D shows were of a similar quality as Brian's show.


Title: Re: Dean Torrence joining Mike's band?
Post by: NateRuvin on February 15, 2019, 11:42:26 PM
Wow, the recent ideas expressed on this thread have really blown my mind. I never thought  about Dean not including hits like "I Found A Girl" or "You Really Know How To Hurt A Guy" since he simply (supposedly) not even on them, and has even expressed dislike for them. Chris Farmer or Gary Griffin could have sung "I Found A Girl" (which had the falsetto sung by Phil Sloan and NOT Dean) just like how Darian sings "Darlin" or Christian sings "Help Me Rhonda" for example.  There were a lot of J&D songs that were (at least modest) hits in the 50's and 60's. Songs like Anaheim, Heart & Soul, I Found A Girl, Popsicle, and Batman have been mentioned, but if there were to be a slight rotation of songs, like Mike and Brian do, others that could've been included (or Dean could still include today!) are White Tennis Sneakers, One Piece Topless Bathing Suit, Three Window Coupe, or Bucket T.  I'm an avid Dean Torrence supporter, but I'm now starting to understand the frustration behind lack of J&D songs more.

But to be fair, as many of us have concluded, people don't go to a BBs or J&D show for specific songs, but for California music. Mike & co can play Little Old Lady and Surf City no problem and Dean (with Jan until 2004) can perform God Only Knows or Darlin. I agree that Phase II and Dean's current shows aren't meant to be fine art, they're meant to be a Beach Party. And if playing BBs predominently helps to create a Beach Party, I suppose they've done their job. Jan certainly enjoyed himself, singing backgrounds on those BBs tunes (some of which he had a part of creating in the 60's) thats whats most important.     To be fair, both J&D and BBs shows have always consisted of many covers. The BBs played Papa Oom, Long Tall Texan, etc in the early years and Rock And Roll Music, Barbara Ann, Come And Go With Me, Why Do Fools, etc all for years.(and DUKE OF EARL :o)    Hell, even The Beatles played a ton of covers- Twist And Shout, Til There Was You, Kansas City, etc.. I guess people are opposed to a group's set consisting of many covers of one specific group, that they were in competition (friendly) with. Again, like the Beatles-Stones analogy. At the end of the day J&D and later just Dean's setlists are the way they are because of the following reasons we discussed: Jan's condition, Dean's distaste for some of Jan's work (despite being hits) created in his absence, and the audience love/desire for California music.  

Back to Dean joining Mike later this year. I can't wait to see how this unfolds. I will be equally happy with either scenario; Dean having a "J&D Set" or him simply being  a guest member of the band like Stamos. Maybe it'll be like Blondie in BW's shows, where he'll get songs of his own to play, but will also sit in with the band on certain songs. I really hope it's not like that one for C50 show where Dean just sang on Barbara Ann. I'm not complaining about that event, it was legendary and well earned for Dean to be onstage for a C50 show. But, with the promotion of Dean's attendance, I hope he gets proper stage time. Anyway, I will be happy with either scenario because if Dean gets his own set of J&D songs, it will be a great chance to 1) honor Jan 2)rejuvinate interest in J&D's music (if it's more than just Surf City and Little Old Lady) and 3) make obvious J&D's great contribution to Rock.

If I can fantasize, I'd wish for Dean to have an acoustic set, focus on him (like on Bruce with Disney Girls), performing Dean's OWN songs like "Like A Summer Rain", "California Lullaby", with Dean maybe taking a solo on Acoustic guitar. Followed by a couple tunes, played with an electric-rock band setting, with other great J&D tunes like "Popsicle", "Heart & Soul", and "Anaheim..." --- Save Surf City and Little Old Lady for where they respectively land in Mike's normal setlist , and have Dean come on stage with his guitar (just like Blondie at BW shows for his songs)   and yeah, I know Mike dropped LOLFP a few years ago, and Surf City is a night by night song. anyway, with the set I explained above I would be one happy camper!!!!!    well, a guy can dream can't he


One more thing, for those of you who are curious why myself and a few others are such adament defenders of J&D playing predominantly BBs tunes, or maybe you're just curious about J&D in general- check out WHEN WE GET TO SURF CITY by Bob Greene. Great book. Couldn't put it down.


Title: Re: Dean Torrence joining Mike's band?
Post by: guitarfool2002 on February 17, 2019, 06:01:56 PM
Just some memorabilia and various stuff from when Mike and Dean previously collaborated, maybe some that hasn't been seen as much as others.

(https://i.imgur.com/XhnVhpj.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/RCKhFYb.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/oomODPZ.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/MESiVcO.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/9z2Gd5f.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/eKmfx42.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/TLezJzT.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/SeI1blI.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/MTLBEv6.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/zbqsdWy.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/UDkAfr1.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/5jE3Uaq.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/mwURlQP.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/aMSR98Y.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/cmdy765.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/kIHZyvq.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/5fUhyRl.jpg)



That's the rundown, mostly early 80's from when Mike/Dean signed the deal with Radio Shack for the new label "Hitbound" which was Radio Shack's attempt to get into the record label business, to the Budweiser "Be True To Your Bud" tour which saw Mike and Dean playing colleges and spring break blow-outs while handing out lyrics for the crowd to sing the Bud anthem and whatnot, to the Radio Shack and Hitbound label's TV special Scrooge's Rock And Roll Christmas where Mike and Dean appeared in a sleigh and Mike sang to a sheep. And there's Mike and Dean hawking Radio Shack stereo equipment under their house brand Realistic in print ads.

(Just my opinion here...the actual music from these collaborations is some of the worst Beach Boys and oldies related schlock I've heard, really weak attempts to remake oldies using drum machines and synths, some of which were apparently produced by Daryl Dragon. The "Be True To Your Bud" thing speaks for itself. I've never heard any tapes from the spring break Budweiser concerts, but the TV appearances where Mike and Dean lip-sync to the various Radio Shack tracks are painful.)

So I guess that asks the general question have Mike and Dean ever had success with their musical collaborations in the past?


Title: Re: Dean Torrence joining Mike's band?
Post by: “Big Daddy” on February 17, 2019, 06:35:12 PM
I think Hitbound was Mike’s label and they worked with Radio Shack’s label Realistic for the various releases. Realistic had already been already for a while at that point. The Mesa Lane address at the bottom of the Hitbound press release was Mike’s home address I believe.


Title: Re: Dean Torrence joining Mike's band?
Post by: guitarfool2002 on February 17, 2019, 07:35:09 PM
I think Hitbound was Mike’s label and they worked with Radio Shack’s label Realistic for the various releases. Realistic had already been already for a while at that point. The Mesa Lane address at the bottom of the Hitbound press release was Mike’s home address I believe.

Thanks for the info. Do you know of any other releases like these, done with Radio Shack/Realistic/Tandy as the parent company, other than those connected to Mike and Dean on Hitbound? The Scrooge album and the first release had other artists too, did they sign with Mike or Radio Shack? I thought Hitbound was a Radio Shack deal.


Title: Re: Dean Torrence joining Mike's band?
Post by: “Big Daddy” on February 17, 2019, 08:42:59 PM
I think Hitbound made/owned the recordings and licensed them to Realistic for distribution in Radio Shack stores and had a separate licensing deal with Premore (owned by the Solo cup company) for distribution through mail order.


Title: Re: Dean Torrence joining Mike's band?
Post by: “Big Daddy” on February 17, 2019, 08:57:46 PM
Interesting article that kind of goes into the business side of it.

(https://i.imgur.com/ikck4sa.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/hjPK9Bx.png)


Title: Re: Dean Torrence joining Mike's band?
Post by: “Big Daddy” on February 17, 2019, 09:03:32 PM
And here’s Billboard going a little bit further in depth: https://www.americanradiohistory.com/Archive-Billboard/80s/1983/BB-1983-05-14.pdf. Too bad the Halloween album never came to light!

(https://i.imgur.com/2JGl8R3.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/HUo0sgy.png)


Title: Re: Dean Torrence joining Mike's band?
Post by: mtaber on February 18, 2019, 06:56:11 AM
Cassettes?  What, no 8-track release???


Title: Re: Dean Torrence joining Mike's band?
Post by: NateRuvin on February 18, 2019, 08:02:49 AM
Interesting to see that the Mike & Dean related projects actually sort of had a purpose, and that Mike & Dean seemed fairly confident and excited for what the future held regarding Radio Shack, Hit Bound, etc.. I wasn't surprised that Dean knew all the details of the business side of things. He's really on top of all that. Imagine how things would've been different, if instead of The Beach Boys having their comeback being the 1988 #1 single Kokomo, what if Mike & Dean had scored a hit in the early 80's?


Title: Re: Dean Torrence joining Mike's band?
Post by: guitarfool2002 on February 18, 2019, 08:16:33 AM
Thanks for posting those two articles, they shed all kinds of light on what these projects Mike had planned with Radio Shack were all about...and also, why they failed.

Just a side note, my opinion again: Wear a good pair of hip waders and carry a sturdy shovel before reading those articles. Man, could Mike Love sling the bullshit to sell one of his projects, or what? Mike was a master at giving the "hard sell" on stuff he thought was the next big thing.

Could (and will) comment further, but I just found it hilarious in a sad kind of way that the first article, Orange Coast from April 1983 written by Keith Tuber, starts out with the usual description and PR of Mike's project, but then Tuber himself just takes a vicious uppercut and essentially knocks out the entire project from concept to execution in his review. This excerpt is what I think the majority of fans would say and did say, which is why this stuff never got off the ground with any significant success:

"The surf is alive and well, but who cares? What Love and Torrence have done - and are planning to elaborate on - is an ambitious project that lacks meaning. When I listen to old, familiar songs, I want to hear them by the artists who made them famous."

BOOM. Exactly, Keith Tuber. And that's where Mike just didn't get it and missed the mark by light years on this one. Beyond that, the music itself sounded fake, plastic, and totally synth'ed up and drum machined out of relevance or appeal to the people who were the target audiences.


Now what is amazing in these two articles is to sift through some of Mike's comments and get to his "master plan", including a rock and roll film of some kind which involved "recording 250 songs by 50 different artists, using 20 different producers..."

250 songs, 50 different artists, 20 different producers...all re-recording classic 50's and 60's hits with a modern 80's synth-driven sonic vibe...with 20 producers...

How could it miss? FFS... :lol  This is fantasy land stuff, if there are any questions about how a project pitch meeting with Mike and any number of labels or production companies would have gone, just read the articles above and see the results.


Title: Re: Dean Torrence joining Mike's band?
Post by: Pretty Funky on February 18, 2019, 11:25:45 AM
Tossing out theories here. Artists re-recording hits? Another project that didn’t come off?

Have we found the reason for the Rock and Roll Hall Of Fame ‘shaming of artists’ rant?  :lol


Title: Re: Dean Torrence joining Mike's band?
Post by: CenturyDeprived on February 18, 2019, 12:14:45 PM
 There’s just so very much to take in here.

-   Was Mike trying to craft a wrestling-esque, ball-busting image, where he’s belittling Dean’s intelligence? Was this an attempt at a comedy type pairing? Serious question. I’m baffled, because I guess I don’t know their history together, if they had that sort of relationship, if that was a known joke by the public… because it just comes across - in a context of a “new” music duo “supergroup” of sorts - as off-putting and just plain odd to make your musical partner come across as a simpleton dumbass by the blurb.

(http://i66.tinypic.com/25pmejb.jpg)

-   One article lists the price of the Radio Shack tape as $4.95, the other lists it as costing $4.98. Hilarious that there’s no consistency; it’s either a typo by the writer(s) of the articles, or someone involved (Mike?) decided to change the price, and try and squeeze 3 more cents per out of customers per tape somewhere along the line.

-   it comes across as douchey for Mike to use the term “units” in an interview. He seems like a unit by saying "unit". I mean, Kurt Cobain just a decade later was mocking the term in his song “Radio Friendly Unit Shifter”. Yes I know the famous quote “we’re sure to sell a million units”, yet that really is an industry term that makes anyone saying it seem like they are Johnny McCorporate to the max, and it’s just not a term I ever want to hear a musician throwing around in articles who is even remotely trying to be considered an actual artist.

-   The “Jingle Bell Rock” font totally reminds me of Cabbage Patch Kids.  Mike 'N Dean Patch Kids?
(http://i65.tinypic.com/30hsjlt.jpg)

(http://i64.tinypic.com/2rfbn05.jpg)

-   It’s super odd to see a BBs-related release with the World Trade Center on it.  And why the California plate on the Corvette if this is supposed to be NY? Hmm.

(https://i.imgur.com/oomODPZ.jpg)

Anyway, what a weird, weird, artistically vapid era.
It's just kinda grody, and I don't use that term often.


Title: Re: Dean Torrence joining Mike's band?
Post by: startBBtoday on February 18, 2019, 01:51:17 PM
There’s just so very much to take in here.

-   Was Mike trying to craft a wrestling-esque, ball-busting image, where he’s belittling Dean’s intelligence? Was this an attempt at a comedy type pairing? Serious question. I’m baffled, because I guess I don’t know their history together, if they had that sort of relationship, if that was a known joke by the public… because it just comes across - in a context of a “new” music duo “supergroup” of sorts - as off-putting and just plain odd to make your musical partner come across as a simpleton dumbass by the blurb.

(http://i66.tinypic.com/25pmejb.jpg)


Seems like it was a joke.


Title: Re: Dean Torrence joining Mike's band?
Post by: CenturyDeprived on February 18, 2019, 01:57:19 PM
There’s just so very much to take in here.

-   Was Mike trying to craft a wrestling-esque, ball-busting image, where he’s belittling Dean’s intelligence? Was this an attempt at a comedy type pairing? Serious question. I’m baffled, because I guess I don’t know their history together, if they had that sort of relationship, if that was a known joke by the public… because it just comes across - in a context of a “new” music duo “supergroup” of sorts - as off-putting and just plain odd to make your musical partner come across as a simpleton dumbass by the blurb.

(http://i66.tinypic.com/25pmejb.jpg)


Seems like it was a joke.

Oh I get that it's a joke. There's no question of that. I'm just wondering why they did it. It seems a little weird, unless in the context of some sort of pre-established history of one guy "playing" the bumbling fool as some sort of character. Like some movie duo. Absent that, I just wonder why this was done, and why Dean was the one playing the fool. I'm not in any way suggesting there was some bad blood, as it seems by all accounts that Mike and Dean were/are buddies. I just find it kinda weird, that's all.

It was another era, I know. It sort of is from the school of comedy akin to Mike's "Heroes & Villains" "nuclear disaster" spoken word comments (which I understand were allegedy cooked up and/or okayed by Brian)... I suppose I don't get their sense of humor or motivation. Maybe the H&V rant is actually more understandable (to awkwardly diffuse or play down tension over a flop record) when compared to the out-of-the-blue print ad making Dean seem like a simpleton fool for seemingly no reason. Just kinda weird to me.

Side note: is Mike wearing a BBs 1983 tour jacket? Members Only with embroidered BB tour logo? It looks just like the "E.E.L." creepy Landy-initialed embroidered BBs 1983 tour jacket that was for sale at Rockaway Records a few years back.


Title: Re: Dean Torrence joining Mike's band?
Post by: NateRuvin on February 18, 2019, 09:36:03 PM
I think "It's easy enough for Dean" is classic J&D shtick and probably something Dean suggested. Dean had a company devoted to packaging, promotion, etc... You think he wasn't on top of everything like this?? He's been pretty meticulous with almost everything he's been involved with since Phase II began, and he took over leadership of J&D. If you listen to Filet of Soul or watch J&D's TV pilot from 1966, they're constantly poking fun at each other. I know you said something about no prior history or knowledge before seeing the ad, and I guess I can see how it would seem strange, but the poking fun/buddy humor, would at least be relatable to my friend group. Maybe we're just a group of Mikes and Deans  ??? ??? :o :o :lol :lol :lol :lol

J&D's utterly bizarre humor and fluffy lyrical content make it easy to assume these guys were just surfer dudes, but they were smart guys who really were on top of the world for those few years... There obviously can only be one Beatles or one Beach Boys in a generation, but you can't tell me that a single teenager wouldn't have given anything to live J&D's "California" lifestyle. They had hit after hit, with not only Jan & Dean becoming prototypes for so many stars that came after them, but Jan also became one of the era's greatest record producers. Mark A Moore's book "The Jan & Dean Record" states that Jan was using the group of musicians eventually called the Wrecking Crew before Phil Spector! This is the group that BW and the media constantly refer to as "Phil Spector's band" when you might as well call them "Jan Berry's band" if you were going to give them a single leader, simply going by dates. Personally, I believe that there's credit due that Jan doesn't receive. The Rock N Roll HOF is an obvious start. They should be in there, alone, for Baby Talk on Dick Clark; singing the Black R&B with a smooth West Coast flavor. Or what about performing the first Surf #1; the beginning of an era!?! Or Jan surviving his accident, DMC movie, Phase II... Damn , I really don't understand why they aren't in the HOF. So many people with less hits, and arguably less quality music, have been inducted. Was it J&D's weird (often far right wing) shock humor parody/tragedy songs (like Universal Coward and Only a Boy)? Dean thinks its because they simply didn't have anything that profound to sing about. They sang about having fun. As Beach Boys fans, we understand this. Hell, we all love Little Deuce Coupe and Surfin USA. Songs about fun and positivity aren't inherently less complex. In fact, I'd argue that Jan & Dean's "Anaheim" with it's atonal/neutral key and time signature changes, is far more musically complicated than "I'm A Loser" by The Beatles.


Title: Re: Dean Torrence joining Mike's band?
Post by: tpesky on February 19, 2019, 07:49:20 AM
Mike and Dean played the creepy 40 yr olds on spring break role well. On another note, Mike really damaged his voice during this period likely due to the extra concerts. His voice was never worse than in this time period . Partly conscious decision to try to add more nasal and part just overuse as he had a habit of yelling at shows in this era to the crowd .


Title: Re: Dean Torrence joining Mike's band?
Post by: BeachBoysCovers on February 19, 2019, 09:46:01 AM
There’s just so very much to take in here.

-   Was Mike trying to craft a wrestling-esque, ball-busting image, where he’s belittling Dean’s intelligence? Was this an attempt at a comedy type pairing? Serious question. I’m baffled, because I guess I don’t know their history together, if they had that sort of relationship, if that was a known joke by the public… because it just comes across - in a context of a “new” music duo “supergroup” of sorts - as off-putting and just plain odd to make your musical partner come across as a simpleton dumbass by the blurb.

(http://i66.tinypic.com/25pmejb.jpg)


If a member of the public can't work out its a joke, then they probably won't be able to operate it.


Title: Re: Dean Torrence joining Mike's band?
Post by: guitarfool2002 on February 19, 2019, 10:19:45 AM
C.D. made some good observations on the details from those various items I posted. Yes, that looks like the Cabbage Patch Kids font! I knew it looked familiar but couldn't place it. That record label looks like something they'd give away with one of the dolls. The perils of using cut-and-paste graphics (of course, this done well before Photoshop but the same warnings existed...) comes out in the incongruity of having a Vette convertible with California plates and two dudes leaning on it being placed in front of a New York City skyline and backdrop. Yeah...that's weird.

About the Realistic stereo ad: I thought it was unusual copy to use too. It's obviously going for humor, but is Mike being self-deprecating or is he playing it straight described as "slim and trim"? Versus Dean portrayed as, what, a stumblebum, a spaced out surf dude, a simpleton who's been in the music business for several decades at that time who couldn't figure out how to connect RCA cables to a Radio Shack receiver if it were more complex than the one in the ad? It's odd, I agree with CD. Maybe they were thinking the .05% of people in 1983 seeing that ad and remembering some schtick from Jan and Dean where Dean played the dummy would have the ad trigger a memory and laughs? Who knows.

Why wasn't Mike portrayed as the simpleton instead of Dean? Hmmm...don't think too long about that one.


And you'd think Radio Shack would have given Mike a hat which fit him better than the one in the ad.


Title: Re: Dean Torrence joining Mike's band?
Post by: guitarfool2002 on February 19, 2019, 10:40:59 AM
Looking at all the materials and ads and articles from this 1983 era "Mike And Dean" activities, several other issues are jumping off the pages.

1983, 36 years ago, and the template for a lot of Mike's "solo" activities in the decades since already seem to be in place.

Start with the interview attached to the article, from the Orange Coast piece written by Keith Tuber. Mike is supposed to be promoting his Radio Shack/Hitbound projects, and two paragraphs are devoted to spelling out cousin Brian's problems. It's no different in scope than Mike's interviews over the past 5-6 years, where he's there to promote a tour or one of his releases and he goes into Brian's and the Wilson's various personal problems and issues. At some point, isn't it more dignified and I'll use the term respectful to make perhaps a one-line comment on these matters, like "my cousin Brian has been battling some issues, but I wish him the best" and leave it at that?

Instead...and this in 1983, not in the recent 6 years...Mike goes into Brian's issues with overeating, drinking too much, lack of self-control, and other points that have *nothing* to do with Mike and Dean's project. Does that sound familiar to anyone who has been following this band and their press interviews since Fall 2012? It should.

And the irony must have been lost on Mike that while he's telling the fans and readers who he's trying to reach to promote his project about Brian's excessive drinking and lack of self-control...

...Mike himself was signed on to play gigs at Spring Break hotspots, sponsored by Budweiser beer, complete with a rewrite of a Beach Boys classic to promote Budweiser beer, and would be playing for college audiences who were mostly going to these Spring Break hotspots to drink excessively, eat excessively, party until they're shitfaced, throwing personal responsibility mostly out the hotel sliding-door balcony...and Mike is onstage leading them in singalongs to the Budweiser anthem while hoisting cans of Bud at them from the stage. While making it a point to mention cousin Brian's issues with excessive drinking and excessive behavior. Then there is also that print ad suggesting Mike is "trim and fit" versus, I guess, the example of his cousin?

Hypocrisy, or just an innate lack of perspective beyond self-aggrandizement and making money?

Whatever the case, there was the template for Mike's interviews already in place back in 1983. As has been said before, this stuff is not new to people who have been following this band, nor did it happen in a vacuum. It's similar patterns repeating from year to year. More on that to follow.


Title: Re: Dean Torrence joining Mike's band?
Post by: CenturyDeprived on February 19, 2019, 10:56:55 AM
I think "It's easy enough for Dean" is classic J&D shtick and probably something Dean suggested. Dean had a company devoted to packaging, promotion, etc... You think he wasn't on top of everything like this?? He's been pretty meticulous with almost everything he's been involved with since Phase II began, and he took over leadership of J&D. If you listen to Filet of Soul or watch J&D's TV pilot from 1966, they're constantly poking fun at each other. I know you said something about no prior history or knowledge before seeing the ad, and I guess I can see how it would seem strange, but the poking fun/buddy humor, would at least be relatable to my friend group. Maybe we're just a group of Mikes and Deans  ??? ??? :o :o :lol :lol :lol :lol

Yeah, I honestly don't know much about J&D and their history beyond just some slight surface stuff.  If the poking fun at each other thing was an innate part of their shtick, then I guess it makes a little more sense.

Although, like GF pointed out -and funny enough I had also independently thought this too - why is Mike not here (nor ever) on the receiving end of being the dumb clod in the "one guy is cool, the other is a dummy" type of scenario, and it's always the other way around?

And yes, come to think of it, I guess there was always a ball-busting shtick with The BBs, going back to the early spoken word tracks. I suppose this ad is just an extension of  "Cassius Love vs Sonny Wilson". Maybe it just seems odder to see two 40+ year old dudes acting that way though.

I guess this ad is the print ad version of their updated cover version, "Cassius Love vs Sonny Torrence". I suppose their marketing people were trying to make sure that customers who didn't see themselves as technically skilled/proficient would have a spokesperson who they could relate to, and someone had to be the dummy. But, as GF had also pointed out, I also thought it odd to see Mike playing up his "thin" waistline, because Mike had just made excessive comments about his cousin's weight in the press. It's eyeroll city.  ::)

(Side note: I tried to get into J&D out of curiosity, and because I've heard BBs fans who rave about them being underrated, but after giving some of their stuff a chance a bit, nothing's really clicked with me enough to explore further - I welcome suggestions of songs/albums if anyone thinks I'm missing out on something good).


Title: Re: Dean Torrence joining Mike's band?
Post by: CenturyDeprived on February 19, 2019, 11:16:24 AM
The perils of using cut-and-paste graphics (of course, this done well before Photoshop but the same warnings existed...) comes out in the incongruity of having a Vette convertible with California plates and two dudes leaning on it being placed in front of a New York City skyline and backdrop. Yeah...that's weird.
 

Did that Vette in the pic belong to Mike? I wonder. I know just a few years later, The BBs (I'm guessing via Mike, who probably pushed for tie-ins more than his BB mates) had that big Vette tie-in with Still Cruisin', where Chevy gave away 35 Corvettes to 1 person. If I didn't know better, I'd think Mike was trying to do an homage to the Shut Down Vol. II album cover here, trying hard to strike as cool a pose as Denny had in front of Denny's own Vette.



And you'd think Radio Shack would have given Mike a hat which fit him better than the one in the ad.

It's probably one size fits all, with those little plastic snap fit tabs in the back. But yeah. I wonder if Mike still has that Radio Shack hat deep in his closet. Pretty sure that's the same hat he sang on the anti-corporate tune "Imagine", of all songs, while wearing. I guess it was Mike's version of Brian's Fire Hat phase.  

In an alternate Twilight Zone universe, Mike goes back in time to wrestle creative control of the band from Brian circa 1966, and gives the studio musicians all red Radio Shack hats to wear.

(http://i67.tinypic.com/py43b.jpg)


Title: Re: Dean Torrence joining Mike's band?
Post by: Steve Latshaw on February 19, 2019, 12:28:59 PM
 Jan & Dean's comedy bits were an integral part of their act between 1959 and 1966...  THE T.A.M.I. SHOW, Dean's liner notes to Golden Hits Vol. 2, all the liner notes to the Jan & Dean Anthology album, both TV pilots, Schlock Rod... Bucket T... Little Old Lady from Pasadena... Anaheim, Azuza... Horace the Swingin' School Bus Driver... Submarine Races... One Piece Topless Bathing Suit... Hang On Sloopy... Folk City... all of JAN & DEAN MEET BATMAN (both versions), all of FILET OF SOUL... and all of their concert appearances, all of their radio promos and, especially, DEAD MAN'S CURVE, which showed just how dark they were willing to go.  Dean calls it their "FARGO." They were billed as the Laurel & Hardy of rock & roll and their public personas were very much like Stan and Ollie.  Jan was "Ollie" and Dean was Stanley, the "dumb one."  And like Stan Laurel, Dean was actually the brains behind their comedy presentation.  Jan was equally adept at brilliant musical satires so subversive that they actually became hit records.  It's still astounding that he crafted such a deft send-up of drag racing songs like Little Old Lady From Pasadena and it became a number 3 hit with record buyers (including a hell of a lot of gear heads).

I suspect neither one of them would ever claim to have created something as brilliant as PET SOUNDS.  That wasn't the game to these guys.   You want a laugh, check out the way they gleefully savage their own work on FILET OF SOUL - and poke fun not only at Beatlemania but their own willingness to exploit it for fun and profit.

In the Radio Shack ad, the line about Dean is a throwback to his stage persona. 

Look at their work through the prism of their humor and you see what they were all about.  Farm team isn't really the best analogy.  If you think of The Beach Boys as the champion riders at the rodeo, Jan & Dean were the rodeo clowns.  They got plenty of laughs - and they were damned skilled at wrangling angry bulls when the stakes were high.


Title: Re: Dean Torrence joining Mike's band?
Post by: CenturyDeprived on February 19, 2019, 12:56:21 PM
Jan & Dean's comedy bits were an integral part of their act between 1959 and 1966...  THE T.A.M.I. SHOW, Dean's liner notes to Golden Hits Vol. 2, all the liner notes to the Jan & Dean Anthology album, both TV pilots, Schlock Rod... Bucket T... Little Old Lady from Pasadena... Anaheim, Azuza... Horace the Swingin' School Bus Driver... Submarine Races... One Piece Topless Bathing Suit... Hang On Sloopy... Folk City... all of JAN & DEAN MEET BATMAN (both versions), all of FILET OF SOUL... and all of their concert appearances, all of their radio promos and, especially, DEAD MAN'S CURVE, which showed just how dark they were willing to go.  Dean calls it their "FARGO." They were billed as the Laurel & Hardy of rock & roll and their public personas were very much like Stan and Ollie.  Jan was "Ollie" and Dean was Stanley, the "dumb one."  And like Stan Laurel, Dean was actually the brains behind their comedy presentation.  Jan was equally adept at brilliant musical satires so subversive that they actually became hit records.  It's still astounding that he crafted such a deft send-up of drag racing songs like Little Old Lady From Pasadena and it became a number 3 hit with record buyers (including a hell of a lot of gear heads).

I suspect neither one of them would ever claim to have created something as brilliant as PET SOUNDS.  That wasn't the game to these guys.   You want a laugh, check out the way they gleefully savage their own work on FILET OF SOUL - and poke fun not only at Beatlemania but their own willingness to exploit it for fun and profit.

In the Radio Shack ad, the line about Dean is a throwback to his stage persona. 

Look at their work through the prism of their humor and you see what they were all about.  Farm team isn't really the best analogy.  If you think of The Beach Boys as the champion riders at the rodeo, Jan & Dean were the rodeo clowns.  They got plenty of laughs - and they were damned skilled at wrangling angry bulls when the stakes were high.


Thanks for that info, Steve, that makes a lot of sense then. Out of context it seems much odder, but in context it's clearly a throwback like you're saying.


Title: Re: Dean Torrence joining Mike's band?
Post by: SMiLE Brian on February 19, 2019, 04:54:18 PM
GF, "Thats why god made the radio(shack) should have been on c50.... ;)


Title: Re: Dean Torrence joining Mike's band?
Post by: CenturyDeprived on February 19, 2019, 06:22:28 PM
GF, "Thats why god made the radio(shack) should have been on c50.... ;)

 :lol


Title: Re: Dean Torrence joining Mike's band?
Post by: guitarfool2002 on February 19, 2019, 07:17:24 PM
GF, "Thats why god made the radio(shack) should have been on c50.... ;)

 :lol :lol :lol

If it's a red hat, would Mike have worn it only on Mondays? Or maybe Radio Shack gave him some other colors too for the rest of the weekdays.


Title: Re: Dean Torrence joining Mike's band?
Post by: NateRuvin on February 19, 2019, 07:49:10 PM
Steve's summary of J&D's humor was perfect. It was definitely an integral part of their studio albums and stage performances. I'd actually go far enough to say they were an early example of Rock n Roll artists pushing conventional boundaries. There haven't been many (if any) Rock acts that can be put in the same sentence as Laurel & Hardy. I agree that given the way things played out, J&D never made anything on the level of Pet Sounds. Sure, COS and SFARD could have been salvaged into something that could've competed with the Psychedelic records of the era, but nothing on those records have the emotional weight of anything on Pet Sounds, with the exception being Dean's "Like A Summer Rain". Terrific track. Haunting lead vocal. J&D probably would have continued to go farther and farther down the comedy path, as they were already doing in 1966 with Filet of Soul, Batman, and their proposed TV show. However, I do think with the amazing albums coming out left and right from all sorts of Pop acts (Beatles, Beach Boys, Zombies, Byrds) Jan's competitive spirit would've kicked in, driving him to whatever a 1967 psychedelic era J&D record could have been. J&D's transition from R&B to the California Sound was very smooth. They brought in the California sound and phased out the R&B sound simultaneously on the albums Golden Hits Vol 1, J&D Take Linda Surfing, and Surf City and other Swingin States. Jan also lent their songs to a Classical style with his Pop Symphony album. They experimented with an array of genres like Folk (I Found A Girl and Folk City LP) and Psychedelia (albeit with a J&D twist, including Pop/Rock standards and a Big Band style horn section-signature Jan Berry!-on Filet Of Soul) ... I think Jan had a good ear for trends . He was already working on Blowin My Mind before the accident, which features a Psychedelic/Sunshine Pop style backing track, with some versions even featuring sitar and fuzz guitar. Sounds that fit perfectly with the times. I don't think J&D had any interest in leaving music alltogether to pursue their school-related careers, and they would've changed with the times, as they already had been doing since the Surf sound of the early 60's transitioned into the Psychedelic/Hard Rock styles of music that would define the later half of the 60's.


Title: Re: Dean Torrence joining Mike's band?
Post by: Jim V. on February 19, 2019, 09:49:05 PM
I've been meaning to post on here for a while but things kept getting in the way. I know the thread is about Mike and Dean, but it's also strayed off here and there to general Jan and Dean type stuff. And I dunno, but I just wanna throw a few thoughts out there and see what y'all think.

First of all, Jan. Seemed like he had it all. Good looks, musical talent, kinda funny (we'll get back to that later). But once I learned about Jan and Dean, I started getting rubbed the wrong way by a bit about him. I'd say a lot of it comes from the fact that he was out there writing songs like "The Universal Coward" and "Only a Boy" which, for all intents and purposes, were pro-war. Which, you know, that was his prerogative. However, when I learned that he was trying to find any excuse so he wouldn't have to go to Vietnam after he got drafted, I lost a shitload of respect for the man. Because in my world, the kinda person that does was he was trying to do is a called a fuckin' CHICKEN HAWK. It was fine for other people to go fight wars and for parents to lose their children, our wives to lose their sons for something Jan Berry believed in, but it wasn't good enough for Jan Berry himself to have the balls to go and fight for what he claimed he believed in. Carl Wilson is a totally different story because he had a religious reason as a nonviolent person who apparently did not support the war, so I never though twice about the kind of man he was. Not the same feeling for me in Jan's case. Now the shitty thing is, apparently all this draft stuff was weighing on Jan's mind when the fateful accident happened. And don't get me wrong, I think what happened was a horrible horrible moment in rock 'n roll history, and really just a horrible moment, for a smart, good looking rock and roll star who could've been a doctor or maybe changed with the times and kept Jan and Dean in the thick of things in the rock scene. But alas, what happened happened. And nothing can change that unfortunately.

Now the crazy thing to me is, as much as I like a bit of what we'll call "phase 1" Jan & Dean music, the stuff that I actually really dig from Jan is the stuff he did during the '70s and early '80s. Originals like "Fun City" and "Totally Wild" and covers like "Don't You Just Know It" and "Little Queenie" are a heck of a lot better than they have any right being, given the circumstances. In fact, I think Jan's career trajectory would be given a bit more love if perhaps a nice compilation was made covering this stuff. I have one called Fun City that was done on K-Tel I think, but really it seems like that one could improved on.

So then we have Dean, I think he was definitely the Mike Love of the group. Whereas, apparently Mike started getting a like prickly about the music or the lyrics around Pet Sounds and SMiLE apparently Dean was pissing and moaning as early as "I Found a Girl" or "You Really Know How to Hurt a Guy" during his duos career. Apparently these songs weren't "fun" enough or something. Compared to Dean, Mike seems positively progressive in a musical sense! Man. But then when Jan is out of commission (post accident but pre Carnival of Sound sessions) he goes and makes a kinda nice, kinda contemporary little album entitled Save For A Rainy Day, which honestly might be the best non compilation album ever released under the Jan & Dean name. So what was it? Just jealousy? Who knows. But now, regardless of any of that, post Jan's death, Dean in my opinion has been a horrible steward of the Jan & Dean legacy. It doesn't even seem like he's tried to push them as a group of any artistic merit, while at the same time whining that they aren't in the RRHOF.  But yeah, ever since "phase 2" (late '70s through Jan's death) there was no attention paid on stage to any of the, shall we say, non car or surf songs as far as I know. You'd never see anything like "Jennie Lee", "Baby Talk", "I Found a Girl", "You Really Know How to Hurt a Guy" or anything else. It was just the old standbys. And I know you could say it woulda been heard to do the early doo-wop cuts, I think Jan coulda given "You Really Know How..." a decent shot in the later days and done it kinda well. And I think the blame for most of this has to go to Dean. I don't think he cares much about anything other than money. I remember reading something with him around 2012 where he said he didn't think he would probably do any new music because of the "political stuff" and the "economy" and blah blah. Sounded like he was another angry old white guy even though I'm sure he's got more than enough $$. Plus who the f*** gives a sh*t about solo Dean Torrence music in 2019? Give me a break. So yeah, unless I'm proven wrong, Dean to me is a money hungry douche who wrote a few nice songs, and who had a falsetto better than I think some give him credit for.

And while we are on somewhat maybe....controversial....opinions, I'll say this. Both sides of the Jan and Dean debate are annoying. The side of Beach Boys fandom who think they (The Beach Boys and their fans) are the cool kids and think that Jan & Dean and their fans are dumb jocks and whatever I just think is stupid. Brian Wilson thought they were decent enough to work with for like 4 or 5 years so they musta been somewhat worthwhile. And that's what they are to me. Somewhat worthwhile. They are good for a few singles. Get their 10 song Greatest Hits and you're fine. And the people that claim that Jan was anywhere near Spector or especially Brian are out of their minds. I know he was supposed "first" to use certain musicians or whatever, but who cares. There was a guy who first played quarterback in like 1920, but that doesn't mean he's better than Tom Brady. So stop bothering to try comparing Jan to Brian. They aren't close. In the same year Brian did Pet Sounds and The Beatles put out Revolver, we got Batman from Jan. And I'm not hating, it's funny. But if he was really there like some of his fans say he was, then why was he recording oldies before the accident? So in conclusion, Jan's music is alright. Don't let the self-proclaimed "cool kids" change your mind if you dig some of it. But also be realistic and don't compare him to BW. Just my opinion.

Anyways, that is all. Haha. I take this stuff just WAY too seriously!

[EDIT]: Forgot to address the "funny" thing. I think their sense of humor is highly, highly overrated. I know humor is subjective and what I find funny may not be what you find funny, but I always hear about how they were the "original punks" or some garbage. And that's just what it is...garbage. Their humor has a tinge of anti-humor to it, which I can dig, but besides that I think they weren't much different from many of the other mid '60s rock acts. Like if Jan and Dean's humor was "punk" then surely The Beatles was. And The Who's. And Brian's well....Brian's was just different. Haha. But yeah I think the punk mantle just kinda got given to them to give them more props just because the stock of their group has fallen heavily since the '60s and especially since the '80s. Which is sad, but they weren't the cream of the crop. They had a few nice songs, but that was it. And NOW, finally I am done with this for real!


Title: Re: Dean Torrence joining Mike's band?
Post by: NateRuvin on February 20, 2019, 10:25:31 AM
Jim V,

While you were thorough in your analysis and obviously know your stuff, I disagree with you on some points.

As for Jan and the war, I can understand your frustration. Here's a Mark A Moore (J&D historian) quote from the J&D board that should clear everything up. "Both sides were fair game. I mean, we're talking about Jan & Dean here. "In my view, the personal political leanings of J&D in 1965-66 are of little consequence. Universal Coward poked fun at the anti-war movement -- and Eve of Destruction was -- to quote a phrase I've used before -- delivered with exaggerated angst... According to Roger Christian -- who was as close to Jan as anyone -- the establishment viewed Only A Boy as an anti-war song -- because it was soliciting sympathy for a kid (a soldier) who's life had been snuffed out before it really began."

As for Dean's feelings about J&D's music, I'd say it's much more complicated than you make it out to be. Jan was 100% in control from 1963-1966 with the production of those records. He had total say over every note committed to tape. Dean was merely the sideman. I remember Dean saying something like "You either did it Jan's way or you didn't do it. I was just happy to do it." But many people close to the situation have expressed that Dean would have liked more creative input during Phase I. Perhaps his dislike of some of Jan's work was similar to Mike's alleged dislike of Brian's--- the fear of not being needed anymore. I'm sure it was frightening, in a way, for guys like Mike and Dean (talented, but not mega hit producers) to watch their peers grow into Singer/Songwriter/Instrumentalist/Producer/Arrangers while Mike and Dean were singers and lyricists at most, with limited instrumental proficiency. Both Mike and Dean helped bring their respective groups to fame, but it was Jan and Brian who were the masterminds. Jan and Brian could have used anyone. (Jan, did, with Arnie in 1958) Mike and Dean were probably scared that their careers were at stake. With that in mind, it's much easier to wrap your head around why they would have negative feelings towards a song or an era of artistic growth (SMiLE for Mike, Folk N Roll for Dean)  To simply sum up Dean as a money hungry douche, when you don't know the guy is a little absurd. I met Dean and he couldn't be more gracious. We talked about Jan's arranging skills his great use of harmony. Dean isn't oblivious to all this. He appreciates the artistic side of the music. In retrospect, maybe it was wise of him to think kids were going to buy You Really Know How To Hurt a Guy as an A side single in 1965 or that 2019 audiences would rather hear him sing "Do It Again" than "Horace, Swinging School Bus Driver"

My personal opinion is that J&D are more than "somewhat worthwhile". I think there's a lot to be learned about production and arranging from J&D's songs. Many classic tunes like Anaheim and Honolulu Lulu were pretty innovative with their layers of vocal harmonies, three or four guitars, two basses, two drum kits, keys, horns, etc.. Those songs sound powerful no matter the medium. Especially in mono. Jan also used a lot of compression and limiting on those songs. I think these production techniques and aesthetics are why he often gets compared to Brian Wilson and Phil Spector, aside from the obvious genre/regional overlaps.

As for the humor, to each his own. I find it laugh out loud funny. There must have been something memorable about their humor, if people still remember it 50+ years on.

Thanks for acknowledging the tribal nature between BBs and J&D fans. There definitely is a middle ground. You can appreciate one group, without diminishing your love for the other. Actually the opposite happens. I think hearing the differences between the groups made me appreciate each other more. J&D's (often times off-key) crooning has made me appreciate the BBs immaculate pitch and intonation. Brian's sometimes thin-sounding surf-era arrangements have made me appreciate Jan's powerful dual-drum tracks. Both bands compliment each other perfectly. Brian's music can often be categorized as introspective and personal, whereas Jan's leaned towards the goofy side. That's why hearing Little Old Lady at a BBs show or Sail On Sailor at a J&D show, doesn't upset me and actually, when played well, brings a smile to my face. Fortunately, J&D and The BBs have always had great musicians, so I'm rarely left in disappointment.


Title: Re: Dean Torrence joining Mike's band?
Post by: Steve Mayo on February 20, 2019, 12:40:18 PM
Dropped in to add that the vet in the photo was part of a contest when the cassette was released. One had to cut out the license plate on the vet and send it in. They gave away something like five or six cars. Notice the plate has six T’s on it. As in the ‘60’s. Where the songs came from.  You cut out the plate from the card board holder that contained the cassette.


Title: Re: Dean Torrence joining Mike's band?
Post by: Jim V. on February 20, 2019, 12:59:43 PM
Jim V,

While you were thorough in your analysis and obviously know your stuff, I disagree with you on some points.

As for Jan and the war, I can understand your frustration. Here's a Mark A Moore (J&D historian) quote from the J&D board that should clear everything up. "Both sides were fair game. I mean, we're talking about Jan & Dean here. "In my view, the personal political leanings of J&D in 1965-66 are of little consequence. Universal Coward poked fun at the anti-war movement -- and Eve of Destruction was -- to quote a phrase I've used before -- delivered with exaggerated angst... According to Roger Christian -- who was as close to Jan as anyone -- the establishment viewed Only A Boy as an anti-war song -- because it was soliciting sympathy for a kid (a soldier) who's life had been snuffed out before it really began."

As for Dean's feelings about J&D's music, I'd say it's much more complicated than you make it out to be. Jan was 100% in control from 1963-1966 with the production of those records. He had total say over every note committed to tape. Dean was merely the sideman. I remember Dean saying something like "You either did it Jan's way or you didn't do it. I was just happy to do it." But many people close to the situation have expressed that Dean would have liked more creative input during Phase I. Perhaps his dislike of some of Jan's work was similar to Mike's alleged dislike of Brian's--- the fear of not being needed anymore. I'm sure it was frightening, in a way, for guys like Mike and Dean (talented, but not mega hit producers) to watch their peers grow into Singer/Songwriter/Instrumentalist/Producer/Arrangers while Mike and Dean were singers and lyricists at most, with limited instrumental proficiency. Both Mike and Dean helped bring their respective groups to fame, but it was Jan and Brian who were the masterminds. Jan and Brian could have used anyone. (Jan, did, with Arnie in 1958) Mike and Dean were probably scared that their careers were at stake. With that in mind, it's much easier to wrap your head around why they would have negative feelings towards a song or an era of artistic growth (SMiLE for Mike, Folk N Roll for Dean)  To simply sum up Dean as a money hungry douche, when you don't know the guy is a little absurd. I met Dean and he couldn't be more gracious. We talked about Jan's arranging skills his great use of harmony. Dean isn't oblivious to all this. He appreciates the artistic side of the music. In retrospect, maybe it was wise of him to think kids were going to buy You Really Know How To Hurt a Guy as an A side single in 1965 or that 2019 audiences would rather hear him sing "Do It Again" than "Horace, Swinging School Bus Driver"

My personal opinion is that J&D are more than "somewhat worthwhile". I think there's a lot to be learned about production and arranging from J&D's songs. Many classic tunes like Anaheim and Honolulu Lulu were pretty innovative with their layers of vocal harmonies, three or four guitars, two basses, two drum kits, keys, horns, etc.. Those songs sound powerful no matter the medium. Especially in mono. Jan also used a lot of compression and limiting on those songs. I think these production techniques and aesthetics are why he often gets compared to Brian Wilson and Phil Spector, aside from the obvious genre/regional overlaps.

As for the humor, to each his own. I find it laugh out loud funny. There must have been something memorable about their humor, if people still remember it 50+ years on.

Thanks for acknowledging the tribal nature between BBs and J&D fans. There definitely is a middle ground. You can appreciate one group, without diminishing your love for the other. Actually the opposite happens. I think hearing the differences between the groups made me appreciate each other more. J&D's (often times off-key) crooning has made me appreciate the BBs immaculate pitch and intonation. Brian's sometimes thin-sounding surf-era arrangements have made me appreciate Jan's powerful dual-drum tracks. Both bands compliment each other perfectly. Brian's music can often be categorized as introspective and personal, whereas Jan's leaned towards the goofy side. That's why hearing Little Old Lady at a BBs show or Sail On Sailor at a J&D show, doesn't upset me and actually, when played well, brings a smile to my face. Fortunately, J&D and The BBs have always had great musicians, so I'm rarely left in disappointment.

Thanks for the response Nate! And I dig that you're a fan of Jan & Dean. Perhaps if I find the time I'll respond a bit more thoroughly at some point!


Title: Re: Dean Torrence joining Mike's band?
Post by: SMiLE Brian on February 20, 2019, 01:05:54 PM
Dropped in to add that the vet in the photo was part of a contest when the cassette was released. One had to cut out the license plate on the vet and send it in. They gave away something like five or six cars. Notice the plate has six T’s on it. As in the ‘60’s. Where the songs came from.  You cut out the plate from the card board holder that contained the cassette.
Nice! How you doing Steve?


Title: Re: Dean Torrence joining Mike's band?
Post by: Steve Mayo on February 20, 2019, 01:53:59 PM
Doing ok smile brian. last august had to spend eight days in hospital.  had a blood clot inside my heart. on blood thinners now. had another heart cath that showed i have lost some heart function since the heart attack back in 2010. doing ok right now. off work because of it. thanks for asking. how are you doing?


Title: Re: Dean Torrence joining Mike's band?
Post by: RangeRoverA1 on February 20, 2019, 02:08:09 PM
I didn't know you 2 were friends. Then again, SB is 1st-class lickspittle, so...  :P


Title: Re: Dean Torrence joining Mike's band?
Post by: Jay on February 20, 2019, 02:14:21 PM
Was there a need for that?


Title: Re: Dean Torrence joining Mike's band?
Post by: RangeRoverA1 on February 20, 2019, 02:18:30 PM
Should I edit it? :)


Title: Re: Dean Torrence joining Mike's band?
Post by: SMiLE Brian on February 20, 2019, 02:19:35 PM
Doing ok smile brian. last august had to spend eight days in hospital.  had a blood clot inside my heart. on blood thinners now. had another heart cath that showed i have lost some heart function since the heart attack back in 2010. doing ok right now. off work because of it. thanks for asking. how are you doing?
Not too much, L&M to your recovery!


Title: Re: Dean Torrence joining Mike's band?
Post by: CenturyDeprived on February 20, 2019, 02:31:07 PM
Dropped in to add that the vet in the photo was part of a contest when the cassette was released. One had to cut out the license plate on the vet and send it in. They gave away something like five or six cars. Notice the plate has six T’s on it. As in the ‘60’s. Where the songs came from.  You cut out the plate from the card board holder that contained the cassette.

Interesting. I did notice the plate to be a personalized plate, which must've been a fake one because you were then not able to order a black personalized plate (black personalized plates did not exist until the mid-2010s); personalized plates first started in the 1970s once California plates had switched to blue… It's only in recent years that you can special order California custom personalized reissue type plates in black.

I wonder who won the Corvette? It's crazy that there were not one, but two contests in the history of this band to win Corvettes.

Now I suppose the real baffling question is why the New York skyline?


Title: Re: Dean Torrence joining Mike's band?
Post by: guitarfool2002 on February 20, 2019, 03:43:35 PM
According to one of the articles posted, Dean himself did the graphic design - Perhaps he can answer why the NYC skyline and backdrop. But it looks like a cut-and-paste deal, because the same Vette photo was used in the magazine article sans NYC background.

What's confusing is (or was) the packaging. What they did was affix the actual cassette and case to a larger LP-sized cardboard back piece, and that's what was in the Radio Shack stores. There are not many of these original copies around, but I do have shots of it from Radio Shack catalogs showing that setup. Also, Paul Revere & The Raiders had a release on "Hitbound" that was packaged the same way. What a waste of packaging and money...but I digress.

What I did not see nor could find was a Radio Shack print ad for this Vette contest, but I'm sure someone has one somewhere. These "Hitbound" releases were indeed being listed and sold in Radio Shack catalogs alongside other somewhat generic comps featuring everyone from Doc Severinson to Willie Nelson to Linda Rondstadt.

One of the last releases was The Association, who had a full synth and drum machine driven album (with production from Curt Boettcher) on Hitbound, as part of the Radio Shack deal and the deal with Mike Love. That was the last recording by the Association in any original lineup, and the results were pretty poor...even the band badmouthed it later.

Note too that all the artists featured in "Scrooge's Rock And Roll Christmas" were part of this Radio Shack-Hitbound-Mike Love partnership deal, and had releases full of "updated" oldies with synths and drum machines on the label and sold through Radio Shack.

I don't think any of them were successful enough to note. "Scrooge's Rock And Roll Christmas" was the only video/multimedia project to see release. I have TV listings showing that it aired in syndication in November and December 1984, then it saw some limited VHS and Betamax home video releases, along with a few versions of the official soundtrack. But no other "holiday" themed videos which Mike plugged in the interview like a Halloween video ever materialized, and Hitbound bit the dust soon after.

All of this came from a budget-line Beach Boys/Jan & Dean hits comp that was in Radio Shack's catalogs and stores, catalog item 51-9010 on cassette if you have it. But that was the original tracks from the 60's, and indications are it sold pretty well. That was the catalyst for Mike Love and "Hitbound" to try recording these covers and doing a whole multimedia promo blitz behind Mike's label.

What was funny to read was some original PR blurbs and notes from the "Rock And Roll City" release, the one with the Cali Vette pasted in front of the NYC skyline:

"First we listened to the original versions of hundreds of the hits of the 60's. Very few were as good as we remembered. We decided we shouldn't "cover" these old hits, unless the new versions were better, a lot better than the originals. That's what "Rock And Roll City" is - Better than the original."



So using that logic, and that comment, when you listen back to the Mike & Dean tracks on "Rock And Roll City" and other artists' synth-driven covers and remakes of some of the best records ever made...Mike and Dean's new versions are better. According to Hitbound Records.

Another, and perhaps the biggest, head-scratching eye-rolling WTF moment of the whole project, and "Hitbound" in general. It's absurd.


Title: Re: Dean Torrence joining Mike's band?
Post by: Steve Mayo on February 20, 2019, 07:07:41 PM
Guitarfool the contest was a radio shack promotion. i think six vets were to be given away. best i remember the contest details and entry form were on the back of the cardboard package. There was a piece in print about it also, i used to have it. i even entered but obviously didn’t win one.  :)


Title: Re: Dean Torrence joining Mike's band?
Post by: guitarfool2002 on February 21, 2019, 07:08:03 PM
Guitarfool the contest was a radio shack promotion. i think six vets were to be given away. best i remember the contest details and entry form were on the back of the cardboard package. There was a piece in print about it also, i used to have it. i even entered but obviously didn’t win one.  :)

Great info Steve! It explained that license plate, six T's, and I had never heard of this promotion until you mentioned it. Yes, I was looking around for some kind of promotional ads or even a TV commercial that Radio Shack would have done for this contest in their flyers or catalogs (the ones that I could find), but I couldn't find any mentions of the Vette giveaway. Too bad you didn't win one of the Vettes - Seems like a pretty expensive contest and promotional tie-in for Radio Shack to run, but I guess they had the budget to do so.

On a personal note, I was sorry to hear about your health issues, but you have my best wishes for a continued speedy and full recovery.  :)



Title: Re: Dean Torrence joining Mike's band?
Post by: Malc on February 22, 2019, 01:22:09 PM

One of the last releases was The Association, who had a full synth and drum machine driven album (with production from Curt Boettcher) on Hitbound, as part of the Radio Shack deal and the deal with Mike Love. That was the last recording by the Association in any original lineup, and the results were pretty poor...even the band badmouthed it later.


Just picking up on this GF, but The Association issued one more album after their Hitbound release, 1995s 'A Little Bit More' which still had Larry Ramos and Russ Giguere fronting the band, albeit alongside a new supporting lineup.
As for the 'New Memories' album for Hitbound - initial production on the album was afforded to a youthful Jeffrey Foskett, whilst final credit went to the band themselves. Boettcher had only contributed to the earlier recording of 'Walk Away Renee'.
Terry Kirkman's quote on the release, when I asked about it, summed it up nicely... "Radio Shack! I thought 'oh, this is where my illustrious career has gone...!'"


Title: Re: Dean Torrence joining Mike's band?
Post by: “Big Daddy” on February 26, 2019, 05:25:59 PM
Say what you will about Mike’s Radio Shack dealings, but they did give the Beach Boys the excuse to head into the studio in early ’80s and cut “California Dreamin’,” laying the foundation for their 1986 version which didn’t do too bad as a single. In all, the Radio Shack deal lead to a net gain for the BBs legacy by eventually resulting in that recording IMO.


Title: Re: Dean Torrence joining Mike's band?
Post by: guitarfool2002 on February 26, 2019, 07:29:54 PM
A net gain? I think they should have thanked Terry Melcher profusely for scrapping Mike's "these are better than the originals" notions, scrapping the all-covers, 250 songs/50 artists/20 producers nonsense, letting Radio Shack get back to selling CB Radios and resistors to science teachers, cutting Dean loose to do his own stuff, and get some musicians like Roger McGuinn involved so they could do it the right way and cut a respectable Beach Boys record. I don't know how the Radio Shack deal could be called a net gain since the entire thing flopped and folded up.

Who has seen or heard "Scrooge's Rock And Roll Christmas"? Can you imagine the Beach Boys being subjected to that kind of project?


Title: Re: Dean Torrence joining Mike's band?
Post by: “Big Daddy” on February 26, 2019, 08:14:56 PM
I perhaps worded poorly but I was intending to say that since nobody really remembers the Radio Shack ordeal and it paved the way for a minor hit, so it could be argued as a positive thing for the legacy at the end of the day. I agree the deal was a flop on its own merits.


Title: Re: Dean Torrence joining Mike's band?
Post by: The LEGENDARY OSD on February 26, 2019, 09:29:36 PM
Most of what Mike Love touches is and will be a miserable flop. His unsuccessful, futile ham fisted attempt to rewrite history/rerecord songs has been a dismal failure and no matter who he brings up on the stage, it sucks, unless it's Brian, Al, Dave or Blondie. It's so great to see Love's attempts die an early death, but incredibly sad to see the legacy dragged through Mike Love's muck.


Title: Re: Dean Torrence joining Mike's band?
Post by: chewy on February 27, 2019, 01:23:22 AM
was califronia deamin directly part of the radio shack thing?


Title: Re: Dean Torrence joining Mike's band?
Post by: HeyJude on February 27, 2019, 07:19:14 AM
First of all, even if “California Dreamin’” was executed from the beginning specifically for the Radio Shack project, it’s a pretty sad stretch to try to credit the Radio Shack project with an unintended, inadvertent, eventual, four-years-later, above-average cover recording being widely released.

Having said that, I’m not so certain it was recorded expressly for the Radio Shack project (or rather, the germ of the idea to record it may not have been at the behest of a potential Radio Shack compilation). Now, available info indicates it may have been recorded around the same time as some other “Rock and Roll City” tracks in late 1982. But I also see an older post from c-man referencing the Summer ’82 issue of “Add Some Music” reporting on a *May 1982” vocal session for “California Dreamin’” that included all of the BBs including Carl and Brian.

The “CD” track seems to be somewhat anomalous compared to the other “Rock and Roll City” songs, sonically if nothing else. While “CD” did use most if not entirely session musicians on those 1982 sessions, the *sound* of the track is not the same as the other R&R City tracks. The other R&R City tracks sound *super* cheap and synthetic; lots of early drum sequencer bits and cheap keyboard sounds. While even the ’82 version of “CD” exhibits some early 80s synthetic sound, it sounds much more “organic” than the other R&R City tracks.

I also recall that there was some reported disagreement/controversy within the band regarding that ’82 version of “California Dreamin’” being released on the 1983 “Rock and Roll City” cassette album. I recall a suggestion that Carl disagreed with its release, feeling the track wasn’t complete.

It’s also worth noting that when the “Rock and Roll City” album was issued a bit later on vinyl as “Rock and Roll Again” (or something like that), the “California Dreamin’” track was NOT included.

Another indicator Carl didn’t want that ’82 version out is that when they re-dubbed the song in 1986, Carl re-recorded his lead (though, I have to say both performances are of essentially identical quality).


Title: Re: Dean Torrence joining Mike's band?
Post by: HeyJude on February 27, 2019, 07:29:19 AM
Regarding the whole “Radio Shack” association with Mike and Dean, while it’s certainly a curious bit of trivia/history for band scholars/researchers (I tend to find that seemingly-but-not-actually dead period between post-KTSA and pre-BB'85 to be fascinating), I don’t think it’s out of line to point out the obvious; that it was a cheesy, cynical, more-corporate-than-usual idea/project throughout its execution. AND, it should be noted that it wasn’t even successful as a cynical, career-enhancing project. Unlike 10-20 years later when some artists got some traction with Hallmark-exclusive CD releases (though the BB attempt at a Hallmark CD in 2006 wasn’t similarly successful), Radio Shack was a weird fit and even if some of the cassettes sold in decent numbers, it clearly wasn’t enough of a success to continue on. Nobody’s career was given a huge bump thanks to the project. Dean did some corporate gigs with Mike that nobody remembers, and then went back to the parking lot concert circuit. Mike always had the Beach Boys.

More people remember the BBs association with Sunkist than they do any tangential relationship with Radio Shack.

I sense Mike approached that Radio Shack stuff the same way he did his “Endless Summer Beach Band” side gigs. It was a potential way to make a little extra money and stay busy. You can see that Mike executed other relatively similar projects in the 90s with those Adrian Baker tracks that were used and re-used on several low-key compilations.


Title: Re: Dean Torrence joining Mike's band?
Post by: guitarfool2002 on February 27, 2019, 10:11:03 AM
I agree on Mike Love's various side projects being some hair-brained (in retrospect and perhaps at the time of conception) schemes to make a few extra bucks, and that issue alone brings up a ton of side issues to go over. Which will come later.

But this specific Radio Shack and Hitbound project, look at how Mike described it in those promotional interviews and articles. The "Be True To Your Bud" debacle was a side project designed to basically sell out a BB's classic hit to a shitty beer company and make money playing to drunken spring breakers.

However, whether it was a case of Mike slinging more than his usual bullshit in promoting one of his grand ideas or not, I cannot get past his description of 250 songs by 50 artists helmed by 20 producers, leading to multimedia projects for films and TV, and the notion of Mike's own high standards dictating that he'd agree on no song for his projects unless the cover update version was better than the original recording. And, note how Mike also slags off on some of the original records suggesting they didn't hold up...

As if some of the finest records cut in the 60's needed Mike's touch to update them in 1983? Seriously, the arrogance and pure bullshit in all of that is literally off the charts. In Mike's mind, based on his statements in those interviews, "Da Doo Ron Ron" and "Walk Away Renee" weren't holding up so Mike and his project for Radio Shack were going to update AND improve them. Oh, please.  ::)


Getting back to the earlier point, when Mike outlines such details involving that many people and multimedia projects based on his concepts and involving his Hitbound enterprise...does it sound like he was thinking of this like a "side project" to make a quick buck? I can see that with Budweiser, that spring break campaign had a "set end date" (I know, kick me in the ass using that phrase... :lol :lol :lol  )

But Mike for all the world sounded like he was trying to become a record company mogul through these Radio Shack-Hitbound projects. And barely anything came of the deals, except what we've outlined above. And the only video project that ever saw an actual broadcast/release was the Scrooge Christmas syndicated special, and again if you haven't seen it, give it a view just so you know what kind of stuff was on the table moving forward.

Following soon, the notion that Mike Love is either stubborn, tenacious beyond anyone's grasp, or was just not good at knowing what music audiences wanted to hear based on his future releases that are more or less copying what the Radio Shack project was, which failed and sank like a stone.

Thankfully, as lukewarm as the BB '85 album was, Mike's idea to cut a cover of "At The Hop" never made it to that disc...But where do we think that idea came from? Yep.



Title: Re: Dean Torrence joining Mike's band?
Post by: NateRuvin on February 27, 2019, 11:05:06 AM
I have mixed feelings about Rock N Roll City (and the various re-releases/updates that followed like Listen To The Air and Be True To Your Bud). There are some pretty good moments. I really enjoy Bruce & Terry's version of Sealed With A Kiss. I like the electric keys and Bruce's lead vocal. California Dreamin (Beach Boys), Baby Talk (Dean/Mike&Dean?) Lightning Strikes (Mike & Dean) and The Letter (Mike & Dean) are all solid recordings that I'm happy to hear come on. The other songs however, are pretty low quality. It's not the production that bothers me. There's lots of music with questionable cheesy 80's synths/drum machines/samples that I love (BW88 for example). I guess the songs that I didn't mention in the above list just aren't inspired. Dean sounds bored on Wild Thing for example. There's a lotta weird early pitch shifting on the vocals of The Locomotion to perhaps try to fix what was a rushed take.

I'm not so turned off by the idea of revisiting oldies on stage or in the studio. Hell, oldies are the reason The Beach Boys played stadiums in the 80's. There are a lot of people who want to hear the great oldies music they grew up with. The idea isn't too far fetched. Even iconic bands like The Beach Boys and The Beatles have iconic songs that were covers of what were oldies to them at the time... for example Til There Was You and Why Do Fools Fall In Love respectively.

The production could either be a result of rush job (why hire a band when you can use a drum machine, samplers, and a synthesizer?) or the producer(s?) made a conscious choice to utilize what was then cutting edge technology, ideally for a "new" or "improved" sound. Of course, the technology had a long way to go. I'm going to assume the first assumption is true.

I think if more effort was put in, and perhaps with a savvy promotional person, the Hit-Bound/Radio Shack thing could have had some success. I mean, the talent was there. Dean Torrence, Mike Love, Curt Boettcher (who I believe produced the album), Bruce Johnston, Terry Melcher, etc... were all very capable and talented musicians.


Title: Re: Dean Torrence joining Mike's band?
Post by: guitarfool2002 on February 27, 2019, 11:19:20 AM
Nate - It's getting into some topics I wanted to address when I had more time, but I did want to reply on a few points.

The production issue is a big one: If Mike's intentions were to "update and improve" classic 60's records with new technology and new sounds that would be comfortable alongside other hit records from 1982-83, he failed. Take a look at the bigger radio and MTV hits from 1983 when the Radio Shack project launched, and you'll hear some synth-driven hits that sound a thousand times better than what Mike was doing, and also hit records that successfully blended live instruments with synths. I don't know where Mike's mindset was in thinking "R&R City" had a current, hit sound that would get radio airplay, but he was way, way off. The tracks sound like they were cut on low-level equipment and done hastily to where some of the textures in the backing tracks are so cheesy it's almost comical.

And I have to ask - Have you seen "Scrooge's Rock And Roll Christmas"? I have a soft spot in my heart for Christmas specials, cheesy or not, so I'm not going to slag off on this one overall. It actually could have been a neat storyline...but the music itself, and some of the vignettes featuring these classic bands and artists, are so cheesy it's almost bordering on self-parody. Again, I won't rip the whole thing apart, but this special was pretty universally ripped apart by various fans, critics, etc...and I think a lot has to do with the spectacle of seeing and hearing some pretty top-notch acts miming to tracks that sound cheap.

As the Scrooge video exists in being the only result we can see of Mike's multimedia plans with Radio Shack, do you think the results seen in that special were a success? Or something that would have demanded more follow-up projects of the kind Mike described in the interview?


Title: Re: Dean Torrence joining Mike's band?
Post by: HeyJude on February 27, 2019, 12:09:28 PM
The initial wave of each release, for instance the "Rock and Roll City" cassette release, was only sold in Radio Shack stores, right? Was that *ever* going to make it a huge hit? I know there were a ton of Radio Shack locations in 1983, but that's still a relatively narrow market to sell music to.

I've never sensed any subsequent semi-reissues of those hand full of Radio Shack projects were given particularly wide distribution either.

I'd also question how successful something like "Rock and Roll City" could have been given the crew behind it (Mike, Dean, Boettcher, Bruce, Melcher, etc.). How many hits were those guys involved with around that time, and how many projects were they involved in around that time that were receiving high critical marks? Boettcher had a few production-related gigs that some folks liked. He and Melcher had some industry cred, but even they weren't like top-of-the-line producers of that era. They weren't Chris Thomas or Roy Thomas Baker or Phil Ramone, etc. Nor were they of the caliber of then up-and-coming big 80s producers like Hugh Padgham, etc.

Apart from a hand full of BB rip-off productions in the 60s, I don't think Bruce as a producer (or solo artist) had seen great critical or commercial success. His own solo album, released in the relative immediate aftermath of "I Write the Songs", wasn't a critical or commercial success. His other 70s productions I don't believe were particularly successful, and he met with mixed, at best, results co-producing the BBs "LA (Light Album)" and producing KTSA.

If someone was looking to really re-emerge with a cutting edge new sound in 1983, I don't think they'd hire the guy that produced the "Keepin' the Summer Alive" album.

Melcher's best attribute that I've noticed was his knack for catchy melodies. And he was able to score the BBs gigs getting songs on movie soundtracks. But on the production side of things, Melcher wasn't an A-lister either.


Title: Re: Dean Torrence joining Mike's band?
Post by: Steve Mayo on February 27, 2019, 12:32:01 PM
Guitarfool the contest was a radio shack promotion. i think six vets were to be given away. best i remember the contest details and entry form were on the back of the cardboard package. There was a piece in print about it also, i used to have it. i even entered but obviously didn’t win one.  :)

Great info Steve! It explained that license plate, six T's, and I had never heard of this promotion until you mentioned it. Yes, I was looking around for some kind of promotional ads or even a TV commercial that Radio Shack would have done for this contest in their flyers or catalogs (the ones that I could find), but I couldn't find any mentions of the Vette giveaway. Too bad you didn't win one of the Vettes - Seems like a pretty expensive contest and promotional tie-in for Radio Shack to run, but I guess they had the budget to do so.

On a personal note, I was sorry to hear about your health issues, but you have my best wishes for a continued speedy and full recovery.  :)



thanks for the well wishes.

you know, 36 years is a long time. not exactly sure where that entry form came from but it was something put out by radio shack. if not on the back of the cardboard holder then some other radio shack publication. I do remember cutting it out along with the license plate and sending it in. where does the time go?

also I had scanned a lot of articles before the fire destroyed them. I have an article about this release on hard drive published in a may 1983 issue of bam. 2 pages. but I've long since forgotten how to post picutres. if someone wants to see this and wants to upload these to the thread just pm me a message with an email abby. i'll send them along. nothing earthshaking in it but maybe some would want to read it along with the other articles posted earlier in this thread.


Title: Re: Dean Torrence joining Mike's band?
Post by: Custom Machine on February 28, 2019, 08:47:41 PM
Following up on the topic of Mike and Dean, here are two artistic gems in a row ... Caroline No beautifully segueing into The Locomotion ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhhws5pTJdw&feature=youtu.be


Title: Re: Dean Torrence joining Mike's band?
Post by: Eric Aniversario on March 01, 2019, 01:48:22 AM
Following up on the topic of Mike and Dean, here are two artistic gems in a row ... Caroline No beautifully segueing into The Locomotion ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhhws5pTJdw&feature=youtu.be
I was surprised to find this, and I immediately sent it to Custom Machine and other fan friends! I guess I wrote a review on Rateyourmusic.com back in 2003, and someone was inspired by the review and made this video! I happened upon it accidentally, when a Facebook friend posted a different video from the channel on their timeline. So crazy how I found it!


Title: Re: Dean Torrence joining Mike's band?
Post by: guitarfool2002 on March 01, 2019, 10:29:11 AM
Re: "The Locomotion" as recorded by Mike Love for that first Radio Shack/Hitbound release "Rock And Roll City".

Just listen to it. And consider how any business interest, Radio Shack or any record company, would give the green light to fund and promote more of the same from Mike or anyone else.

Then consider how Mike Love thought his version of "The Locomotion" was an improvement over the Little Eva original.



Title: Re: Dean Torrence joining Mike's band?
Post by: Eric Aniversario on March 01, 2019, 12:07:54 PM
I haven't read through the whole thread, so I'm not sure this has been shared yet. This is what is probably the only Mike & Dean interview there ever was. Mike & Dean seem to be great friends at this point. Topics covered include Rock and Roll City, Radio Shack record label, Jan Berry, and Brian Wilson

https://youtu.be/R3AtDrafU04


Title: Re: Dean Torrence joining Mike's band?
Post by: guitarfool2002 on March 01, 2019, 12:21:11 PM
I haven't read through the whole thread, so I'm not sure this has been shared yet. This is what is probably the only Mike & Dean interview there ever was. Mike & Dean seem to be great friends at this point. Topics covered include Rock and Roll City, Radio Shack record label, Jan Berry, and Brian Wilson

https://youtu.be/R3AtDrafU04

That's not the only one.

Here is a continuation of that "People Now" interview with Mike & Dean with more guests: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdGTIkjBh_w (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdGTIkjBh_w)

Here is another talk show appearance where Mike & Dean dance, lipsynch to one of the RS tunes Da Doo Ron Ron, and chat: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQupUUunQFk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQupUUunQFk)

Shorter clip of the same appearance, better quality but cel video off a TV monitor: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HrS4p8L9qpc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HrS4p8L9qpc)

Mike & Dean on Entertainment Tonight with Robin Leach on a yacht: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9RQvOtYu_Y (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9RQvOtYu_Y)


I think there could be more, but that's what is on YouTube from the Radio Shack era


Title: Re: Dean Torrence joining Mike's band?
Post by: Custom Machine on March 01, 2019, 04:07:55 PM

Enjoyed SBonilla's Youtube comment, concerning Caroline No segued into The Locomotion,  "One of these recordings was born on the wrong side of the tracks."



Title: Re: Dean Torrence joining Mike's band?
Post by: chewy on April 06, 2019, 09:06:06 PM
do you think an idiot fair security guard would actually admit me back with this?

(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/6~kAAOSwmSdai4gj/s-l1600.jpg)


Title: Re: Dean Torrence joining Mike's band?
Post by: Emdeeh on April 07, 2019, 05:09:55 AM
There's a one-off appearance of Dean with Mike & Bruce coming up on May 4th in Oklahoma City. It's a benefit show at The Civic Center Music Hall.


Title: Re: Dean Torrence joining Mike's band?
Post by: NateRuvin on April 07, 2019, 03:35:34 PM
Thanks for the update. I hope some videos of the event show up online!


Title: Re: Dean Torrence joining Mike's band?
Post by: The LEGENDARY OSD on April 07, 2019, 06:46:24 PM
Mike Love's fake Beach Boys Tribute, juke box band can use all the help they can get. Since there's very little originality going on, why not? It would be appropriate for Dean to join such a band but why go out on a low note with Mike Love grabbing for straws? Such an embarrassing way to end a career with a copy band that has no business being able to sell out the BB name which only coincides with Mike Love's philosophy of anything for a buck. ::) ::)


Title: Re: Dean Torrence joining Mike's band?
Post by: NateRuvin on April 09, 2019, 02:04:57 PM
OSD,

Chill man :lol :lol

Many of us are excited for the shows!