The Smiley Smile Message Board

In the Peter Carlin thread, there was a discussion on some of Brian's more infamous lyrics. Some feel that on certain songs ("Hey Little Tomboy", "Lazy Lizzie", ect.) Brian comes across a bit dirty, almost lecherous. I can see why one would think that, but I think people are looking at them in the wrong way.


1). Unlike R Kelly and Michael Jackson (or Chuck Berry, who never sang about it but certainly DID it), Brian's no pedo.

2). Brian actually does have a child-like quality to him, a genuine one at that. Unlike, again, Jacko, who puts on that persona to lure his victims in. Brian possesses less guile than a cheap ripoff of Street Fighter 2 (hope somebody gets that one).

3) Brian has an odd, and at times, sick sense of humor. Take the line: "Pat...pat...pat pat pat her on her butt...but...she's gone to sleep..." Considering the way Brian actually writes lyrics, the "butt" part of it is only there as a joke, because of the line "but she's gone to sleep, be quiet". It's wordplay that actually is very much like Van Dyke Parks ("music hall a costly bow" -> "Holocaust") for example.

4). Brian's lyrics are often free-form, but in an extremely interesting way, sort of like "genius by accident". "The First Time" is a prime example. I think "Lazy Lizzie" fits that category too, esp. considering how the same verse keeps repeating. I think the "Fairy Tale" interpolation is genius. Why? Because here is the dark side of the eternal childhood that the tune conveys. Here, the writer/singer of the song is still in touch with his inner child, only the mood here is sinister, which is a bizarre contrast to the recycled melody. Which melody is recycled? Why, the "Pied Piper" part!  Why is that interesting?  From Wikipedia's entry on the  Pied Piper of Hamelin.


So, once again, Brian is in the Pied Piper role, albeit in this case a little more directly than would at first appear.

What proof do we have that Jacko did what he was accused of?

More like, what proof is there that he *didn't* do any of the accused?
Anyway...about Brian...

People have very strong opinions on Michael Jackson and it really doesn't seem worth debating because I have found people won''t budge from how they percieve him. I have one point to make though

Please understrand I respect Dennis in many ways and if you don't want to read an unpleasent fact about him I suggest you skip this post. This is a very stickey and I am sorry if I offend anyone. Billy I think you are great and I am sorry almost for posting this but I feel this needs to be put into perspective.

I don't want to tarnish his memory as he has meant so much to me but Dennis was arrested after being accused of sleeping with an underage girl in 1978. Anything further then that is speculation, but Gaines (as I have said before not always the most trusted source) wrote that Dennis' didn't let age stand in the way of who he went to bed with.  Now if (and I am not saying this happened) Dennis gave teens drugs or booze and then had his way with them do you see him as a preditor or a stud? If they were boys or girls is there anything but a lifestyle difference?

Brian did marry Marilyn when she was aged 16. Not that he was THAT much older then her but if I at age 21 (in 1997) had been dating a 15 year old I think my family would have put me away.

I am not passing judgement here. Times have changed in how America looks at age and sexual attraction. I do not let how I view somones private life get in the way of how I feel about their music. Many of may favorite artists did things that only fame or the moral code of yesteryear let them get away with. This does not stop me from liking Brian, Dennis, Michael, Jerry Lee, James Brown, Ike Turner, etc. in any fashion.

As an aside, as far as Brian's feelings on Michael go, a 1998 interview with Index has him speaking fondly of him.  He basically says that he has a lot in common with Jackson family wise as far as their fathers and brothers went.

I don't think there's much room for doubt in the "Lazy Lizzie" lyric:

Three-fifteen
And the bell starts ringing
The girls start walking home from school

Three fifteen
And the bells keeps on ringing
And everything is getting cool

It's so hard to walk home
When you're walking alone
I slow down in my car
And I pull to the curb.

Here in the UK, that's called "curb crawling", and you can be arrested for it. Brings to mind the Errol Flynn story: he was parked outside a Hollywood girls school at home time and when asked what he was doing by a cop replied "just looking, officer". The reply was an invitation to get his ass out of there, and quickly.

Yeah he was with David Niven, wasn't he?

Did BW do this or is he writing about a character in a song?

In real-life it's pretty indefensible, but young girls and rock stars have often "mixed".  Just listened to Jackson Browne on VH1 talking about the song Rosie and how it was inspired by his drummer getting off with a sixteen year-old.

I'd like to think BW was writing from the POV of another character and have long thought the Love You/New Album type stuff was in part due to therapy to take him back to a more (ironically) innocent time, as was the concentration on, and musical referencing to, old rock and roll numbers.  (So, merda, it's all Landy's fault). Of course, Lazy Lizzie was written earlier and I do recall the NME article where he seemed to be hanging out with some young (17?) girl - and I do remember the Gaines section on DW and how he preferred to do something other than have full sex with the younger girls...

Again, not to defend their behaviour, but I'd bet that a lot of stars from the late 60s-70s have similarly young skeletons in their closets (or in Chuck Berry's case, older women in the toilets) - and, while this is not meant as a defence, you could go further back and look at Flynn and Chaplin...  Hell, Oliver Reed married a 16 year-old when he was in his 40s - not that we should be looking to him as any kind of model citizen.

The way society views age and sex and the mixing of the two has changed a lot. Even now some young girls get matched up with old men in third world countries. I don't defend it or think it's right but that's because my upbringing went strongly against it. There are levels of course Brian really loved Marilyn. Perhaps it wasn't in an entireley healthy way but the groupie thing is quite different. Jerry Lee and Myra loved each other too, but again their behavior is not accepted in the western culture of 2006

The NME 1980 article was talking about Debbie Keil and she was already in her late 20s I think. She has told me that Nick Kent was full of baloney and that Brian wasen't eating cigarette ash etc.

Ah, sorry about that.  He says she looked about 16 - but I know what you mean about Kent.

Kent is a liar, plain and simple. Either that, or the research he supposedly does for his writings is performed by mentally challenged chimps. More likely, a combination of both.

Kent apperently had some emotional and drug problems. He is one of the people who really made the Beach Boys myth overrtake their reality. Truly regreatable that he made access that he enjoyed so hard to come by for legit writers.

In the case of Lazy Lizzie, we have to remember it's a song - Brian in the present tense of when he's singing it isn't doing it in reality (at least that we know about) or saying it's OK to curb trawl at his age.  I always took it as him remembering doing that in high school - when it IS OK to curb trawl high school girls.  The same goes for the lyrics of Love You (Roller skating child), or even the most famous example, Hey Little Tomboy - the singer is playing the part of a male high schooler watching a fellow high school tomboy "turn into a girl."  The problem comes in when the Beach Boys, with their mature voices as adults, sing those lyrics with the audience's recognition that they are adults.  That makes it creepy and they should have realized that would make it creepy.

In some ways this kind of song subject matter isn't that different from other songs written from the perspective of youth - how ridiculous is it when a nearly 40 year old Mike sings about how he digs surfin' in Hawaii the most in Kona Coast?  Part of their "descent into self parody" in the later years involved recycling the youth and high school themes of their early hits, no matter how absurd it seemed for them to be singing about such things as adults. 

Brians lyrics have a habit of being painfully truthful and personal, think Til I Die, think H.E.L.P, think Adult Child, think Love You. Is it so hard to believe that a drug-addled Wilson in the 70's may have been a tad lecherous at this time. Some may not want to believe that there is substance to something like Lazy Lizzie as some of us hold Brian up in to much of an untouchable pedestal. He may or may not have indulged in a bit of kerb-crawling but I think he certainly was digging the schoolies at the time.
Certainly in the Uk in the 70's the schoolgirl/gymslip thang was held up as an erotic risque image in media in a way that would be condemned as paedophilia now. It wasn't right then but it certainly was not the 'media hanging offence' it is now. Brian sang about something he did, or would have liked to do , end of.

The schoolgirl sexpot image is still very much with us - Brittney Spear's first video, anyone?

with all the scandal surrounding Brian's life, I doubt he was in addition hanging out at the high school in the 70's checking out the girls, but who knows.  It seems it was part of his fantasy life and remembrance of more innocent times to me, that's why I feel it's wrong to twist it into something perverted.

Without getting too far into this subject - it's very sensitive - IMO there are a lot of people in positions of power, celebrity, political, educational, religious etc etc who have unconsciously or otherwise, used that power to acquire things that would otherwise be unavailable.  Sexual attraction to young people is not as uncommon as you'd think, just that Western society tends not to condone it (rightly, in my opinion).
Certain people (I'm really trying hard not to name names) who are in these powerful positions suddenly find that they have access to this vulnerable group.  People in the music biz have even greater access because of it's youth perception.  Some take advantage.  The reason for it, is what differentiates these people.  Some are downright lecherous and egotistical and comprehend exactly what they are doing.  Others are emotionally immature and 'relate' better to this vulnerable group thereby blurring the line. 
It happens so often that it's frightening.  It can be the person next door, your dad, your best friend.  What Brian was talking about is relatable to millions of guys all over (I'm not saying everyone would do it).

I think he simply has a child like way of looking at women. Love You almost reminds me of the perspective of a 12 year old boy reading Playboy. When sex seems like a far away concept and wondering about it.

The thing is with songs like "I Wanna Pick You Up" is that it can have different meanings to different people. Heck that is what SMiLE is. I would like to think that Brian is playing with people's heads and songs like it are a joke to himself. I read somewhere a long time ago that Adult/Child had humor undertones as well.


Just my $0.50 anyway :-\

So why don't people think that Chilton and Bell were pervs because of "Thirteen"?

I still wonder why he recycled the "pied piper" music from the fairy tale and used those lyrics. The combination of them gave the song a bit of an unsettling quality for  me, esp. considering what the Pied Piper of Hamelin did (take the all the children away). There's just something *odd* about that...

because it was from the perspective of a thirteen year old male. Sorry but Lazy Lizzie just screams of 300lb of a thirtysomething  Brian Wilson sitting in some polystyrence hamburger packaging littered Rolls-Royce. probably with bits of birthday cake as well :o 

Interesting people seem all too willing to suppose it's about a young girl, as opposed to say, a 17 or 18 year old, and that it's a young BW (a 13 year-old)... People seem to be bringing a lot to this. Maybe too much.
Like I said, without condoning it, I imagine a lot of stars have young skeletons in their closet, but, as yet, BW hasn't been caught downloading child porn or doing a Wyman.

1) So this guy used to have hordes of teenaged girls throwing themselves at him. No mutual attraction? Can't see it. Nor can I see that attraction being shut off at the push of a button at a certain age.

Question: was Jesus Juice even invented back then?

2) Just how old was that little gal he married when he met her, anyways? (And no, I don't mean Melinda - not that there's any evidence she wasn't wearing a schoolgirl uniform when they met in that car dealership...)

What age does the attarction button shut off for you? Just before they can drive? Vote? Have the right to bear arms? Have some ballpark knowledge of who Aretha Franklin is?

Suppose we'd have to look at how unusual it was for men of BW's age to marry a girl of Marylin's age at that time in the type of community he was brought up in.  I don't think that in itself makes him a pervert.

Brian & Marilyn were married 12/7/64 when he was 22 and she was 16. But when they first met, October 1962 at Pandora's Box, it was 20/14, and by the summer of the following year, they were in essence living together at the Rovell's house. Just pointing out that Brian has a long history of attraction to young teens.

And then there's Brian's 'autobiography' which claims that Brian also had a crush on Marilyn's sister Barbara, who was even younger.

This, I suppose, is the time for me to trot out the old Ronnie Hawkins quote. When asked about Jerry Lee Lewis' marriage to the thirteen-year old Myra, his response was, "Thirteen? Hell, us good ole boys knew she wuz only twelve..."

Has it not been posited that a reason for Brian's artistic and commercial success was his understanding of and identification with the teenage psyche?

Note: I reserve the right to draw a distinction between the terms 'pervert' and 'creep'.

Another case in point:  Donovan's Mellow Yellow.  "I'm just mad about fourteen . . . and fourteen's mad about me."

Not that long ago since Jagger (at 59 or 60) was hanging out with a 17 year-old model.  Maybe he was helping her with her homework.  Pick up any Sunday supplement magazine and you're looking at 17 year-old girls modelling outfits for women in their 20s and 30s - or is to appeal to their husbands and boyfriends?

I think BW treated his daughters and Marilyn appallingly; I don't think there's too much more to it than that.

"Brian & Marilyn were married 12/7/64 when he was 22 and she was 16. But when they first met, October 1962 at Pandora's Box, it was 20/14, and by the summer of the following year, they were in essence living together at the Rovell's house. Just pointing out that Brian has a long history of attraction to young teens."  Okay, so 21/15 wouldn't look good by our standards now, but how was it looked upon in the neighbourhood at that time?  Or was it a case of, "Oh, it's one of the Wilsons. They're nuts, you know."

As for this, "Has it not been posited that a reason for Brian's artistic and commercial success was his understanding of and identification with the teenage psyche?" Well... if that's the case and this is a key element in the music's appeal, what does it say about the rest of us; what sort of feeling does it arouse in our minds? I left my teens a long time ago. 

BTW, what's with "Rollin up to heaven" ? I think I hear "she's not worried 'bout her parents" in that song, around 1:37, so it's probably about a younger girl, isn't it? And you know the rest of the lyrics I guess

For the record (for what that's worth coming from a cipher on a message board, such as I am) I don't reckon Brian was or is a 'pervert', whatever else he may be. I figure his artistic and commercial success came from his absolute brilliance as a musician. The lyrics for songs like LL, Tomboy, and I wanna Pick You Up don't offend me at all - I will admit to my eyes bugging out of my head a bit when I first heard the line about one shaving one's legs. I don't even think there's necessarily  a huge difference between 21 and 15. For Jerry Lee, by every account I've read Myra was the mature one of the pair from the beginning. For Brian, Marilyn's parents seemingly had a good grasp of the situation, which to me is somehow important.

Look, Brian could have used sections of the Yellow Pages as lyrics and it still would have sounded great - not sure though if I'd feel the same way if he'd used passages from Mein Kampf or something like that.

"I will admit to my eyes bugging out of my head a bit when I first heard the line about one shaving one's legs."

Know what you mean! They're just so dumb anyhow!

Well, I'm no expert on social mores in early sixties Hawthorne (but I'll bet someone is !), however, I present to you these two scenarios (scenaria ?):

#1
Marilyn (aged 15) introduces 21-year-old Brian Wilson, hugely wealthy main man of the famous Beach Boys to her parents.

#2
Marilyn (aged 15) introduces 21-year-old Dwayne Geekly, burger jockey at Foster's Freez to her parents.

Now. which one is more likely to be told "sure, you can sleep in the girls room", and which one is going to have his sorry ass kicked all the way down Sierra Bonita ?

Hmmmmm... depends whether her parents want her to have an 'in' in the music biz, or the exciting world of fast-food retail.

Whomever was more well-hung

 :lol Or, actually, in this case...  :police:

*

AGD and forgetmarie have hit the nail on the head regarding Brian and Marilyn.

I especially loved AGD's name for the burger flipper.  :h5

It's not that different than Celine Dion and her manager-husband, Rene Angelil.  He met Celine when she was 12 and he was 38, and her parents offered her to him to make her a star.  How could they know that those crazy kids would fall in love?  Though Rene obviously was no kid.  Back in the '60s, legal adulthood was 21, so Brian was still one of the kids when he met Marilyn, legally speaking.

That's an excellent point.

I think this subject is interesting. Who among us cannot say that we have never found a teen attractive? The difference is would we act on it. I can say no. I remember my friends wife told me I was lying when I said that I wouldn't go out with a 18 year old. I'm 30 now and really I wouldn't I just don't think I would have anything much to say. I am glad my girlfriend is in my age group and wouldn't want it any other way really. Again do I think Jerry Lee and Brian loved there brides? Sure but both were men who didn't deal with reality like you or I, and were immature. Doesn't excuse it though.


BTW she was 13 not that it makes a hell of a lot of difference. One other thing Jerry was like 14 when he first got married and the girl was like 18 or 19. Interesting how that worked.

i recend my well hung remark....tasteless

Maybe, but I Lol'd.  ;D

I think this topic has been really interesting.

This a great and a bit ambiguous song, an example of writing from a character's point of view:

Art Lover
(Ray Davies)

Sunday afternoon there's something special
It's just like another world.
Jogging in the park is my excuse
To look at all the little girls.

I'm not a flasher in a rain coat,
I'm not a dirty old man,
I'm not gonna snatch you from your mother,
I'm an art lover.
Come to daddy,
Ah, come to daddy,
Come to daddy.

Pretty little legs, I want to draw them,
Like a Degas ballerina.
Pure white skin, like porcelain,
She's a work of art and I should know
I'm an art lover.
Come to daddy,
And I'll give you some spangles.

Little girl don't notice me
Watching as she innocently plays.
She can't see me staring at her
Because I'm always wearing shades.
She feeds the ducks, looks at the flowers.
I follow her around for hours and hours.
I'd take her home, but that could never be,
She's just a substitute
For what's been taken from me.
Ah, come to daddy, come on.

Sunday afternoon can't last forever,
Wish I could take you home.
So, come on, give us a smile
Before you vanish out of view.
I've learned to appreciate you
The way art lovers do,
And I only want to look at you.

John Mark Karr's favorite song apparently!!! he's a Bowie look alike too.

I think you all are too obsessed with this age thing. Maybe that's because when i was turning 30 my girlfriend at the time was 17. Some people raised their eyebrows at that. But now I'm 48 and she's 35 and we've been living together for 18 years, we've been married for 11 and we have two great kids ages 10 and 5. And in seven years when my daughter brings home a 30 year old man...I'll kill him. No...I'll try to evaluate him fairly and find the positive things that attracted my very well-balanced and intelligent daughter to him. Then I'll kill him.

Anyway, I'm pushing 50 and my wife is still pretty and young...and I wouldn't change anything...especially the age difference.

 ;D
Would it be more/less acceptable if it was an old lady and a young guy?  I'm trying to imagine, say, Barbra Streisand singing the lyrics about young men.

Have you never paid much attention to the lyrics of Memphis Tennessee?!

Memphis is a genuine father-daughter song.

Perhaps but don't you think there's a little knowing ambiguity there, certainly in the way it's presented to the listener?  Until the last verse I think you could be forgiven for thinking the song's about an adult young woman.  I mean we're talking about an era here when Chuck's contemporaries were singing about 'bald head Sally' (dropped from The Beatles' version - I wonder why?) and, in real life, marrying their 13 year old cousins, well, one of them was marrying his 13 year old cousin.

Hey baby you're a sweet young thing,
Still tied to Mommy's apron strings,
I don't even dare to ask your age,
It's enough to know you're here backstage,
You're Jailbait, and I just can't wait,
Jailbait baby come on
One chase baby, all I need,
My decision made at lightning speed,
I don't even want to know your name,
It's enough to know you feel the same,
Jailbait, and I just can't wait,
Jailbait baby get down

Tell you baby oh you look so fine,
Sending quivers up and down my spine,
I don't care about our different ages,
I'm an open book with well thumbed pages,
Jailbait, oh and I ain't too late,
Jailbait baby get down

Ahhhh, the poetry of Lemmy... and this does not come close to comparing with the sleaze factor of the Jailbait song by Andre Williams. These tunes may help put Brian's more lecherous moments into perspective.

I wonder if 'Hey Nineteen' was originally titled 'Hey Thirteen'?

A few years ago, a girl I knew (who at the time was around 15) was in a relationship with an adult member of a very popular band. They broke up before I really knew her that well, but a little later she started dating another adult someone in a far less popular band. I remember her telling me one time that her parents let him sleep in her room. Now, if she got away with it with the barely-on-the-map-band member, I could imagine that when she was with the uber-famous-MTV-band member, it was also allowed. And this was the 21st century.

Don't forget Bill Wyman. Started to "see" Mandy at 13. To make it more interesting, his son was "seeing" her mother. >:D