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Smiley Smile Stuff => General On Topic Discussions => Topic started by: Magic Transistor Radio on September 08, 2018, 06:16:36 AM



Title: Recent thoughts on Jack Rieley by the Beach Boys?
Post by: Magic Transistor Radio on September 08, 2018, 06:16:36 AM
By recent, I mean in the last 30 years.  Basically in hind sight, are there any quotes from Brian? Mike? Al? Carl? Blondie? Ricky? About Jack 'how to spell' Rieley?


Title: Re: Recent thoughts on Jack Rieley by the Beach Boys?
Post by: The LEGENDARY OSD on September 08, 2018, 09:09:24 AM


Jack was the best thing that happened for the band. He brought them back from a near death existence with some actual direction and relevant lyrics that complimented their incredible music of that particular era. No, he was not a perfect person but you've got to wonder what direction they would have gone had he stayed on. If Western Justice was any indication, all things BB may have been far better. Who knows, perhaps Mike who so wanted his outrageous share of control would have left them in frustration and that's where things would have gotten very interesting. Perhaps Jack could have rekindled Brian's enthusiasm with the whiney Love out of the way. Food for thought in the "what if" department.


Title: Re: Recent thoughts on Jack Rieley by the Beach Boys?
Post by: Magic Transistor Radio on September 08, 2018, 11:40:19 AM


Jack was the best thing that happened for the band. He brought them back from a near death existence with some actual direction and relevant lyrics that complimented their incredible music of that particular era. No, he was not a perfect person but you've got to wonder what direction they would have gone had he stayed on. If Western Justice was any indication, all things BB may have been far better. Who knows, perhaps Mike who so wanted his outrageous share of control would have left them in frustration and that's where things would have gotten very interesting. Perhaps Jack could have rekindled Brian's enthusiasm with the whiney Love out of the way. Food for thought in the "what if" department.

I agree about how Jack pushed the Beach Boys to be more progressive,  leading to 3 of their most mature albums plus their best live album.  He probably would have encouraged them to fight against the oldies. However,  I no they were financially struggling at the time. They were not only fighting Endless Summer,  but their own fans. I think Mike has had good things to say about that era. Specifically,  he was supportive of bringing Blondie and Ricky on board. He said in his book that as the front man, he was the one promoting the newer songs on stage, and had the scars to show for it. Granted, I would not be one of those. I wish they would have continued to progress and experiment. 


Title: Re: Recent thoughts on Jack Rieley by the Beach Boys?
Post by: Rocker on September 08, 2018, 11:57:26 AM
You might find some comments in this thread:


http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,20413.0.html


Title: Re: Recent thoughts on Jack Rieley by the Beach Boys?
Post by: Rocky Raccoon on September 09, 2018, 11:07:45 AM
From Brian’s Facebook, April 21, 2015
https://www.facebook.com/officialbrianwilson/photos/a.452661542240/10153245968177241/?type=3
Quote
I’m sad to hear about Jack Rieley passing away last Friday. Jack was our manager in the early 1970s and helped us a lot. He wrote the lyrics for “A Day in the Life of a Tree” which blew me away. I also had Jack sing the lead on that one because his voice seemed to fit the song. Jack was a real force on our “Surf’s Up” and “Holland” albums and I’ll always remember his kindness. My thoughts go out to Jack’s family and friends.
- Love and Mercy, Brian


Title: Re: Recent thoughts on Jack Rieley by the Beach Boys?
Post by: Rocky Raccoon on September 09, 2018, 11:20:18 AM
Here are some excerpts from Brian’s book mentioning Jack Rieley.

(https://78.media.tumblr.com/e9ee691f07096ae6d74e7f4d61771495/tumblr_pesw44cL3J1qzb5xa_540.jpg)
(https://78.media.tumblr.com/c901fac4abf204e15c4a902e10c4d0e3/tumblr_pesw44Og4E1qzb5xa_540.jpg)
(https://78.media.tumblr.com/a8957aaf21fc343a168f0c21ab7ba6b5/tumblr_pesw44ADqb1qzb5xa_540.jpg)


Title: Re: Recent thoughts on Jack Rieley by the Beach Boys?
Post by: Magic Transistor Radio on September 09, 2018, 01:39:33 PM
Thanks guys. I just pulled out Mike Loves book and he talks a bit about him as well. Perhaps I should pull out the Dennis and Carl books as well. Though they aren't autobiographies. But I'm sure they both would think highly of that era today. I'm curious if Al has said anything.


Title: Re: Recent thoughts on Jack Rieley by the Beach Boys?
Post by: The LEGENDARY OSD on September 09, 2018, 06:30:49 PM


Jack was the best thing that happened for the band. He brought them back from a near death existence with some actual direction and relevant lyrics that complimented their incredible music of that particular era. No, he was not a perfect person but you've got to wonder what direction they would have gone had he stayed on. If Western Justice was any indication, all things BB may have been far better. Who knows, perhaps Mike who so wanted his outrageous share of control would have left them in frustration and that's where things would have gotten very interesting. Perhaps Jack could have rekindled Brian's enthusiasm with the whiney Love out of the way. Food for thought in the "what if" department.

I agree about how Jack pushed the Beach Boys to be more progressive,  leading to 3 of their most mature albums plus their best live album.  He probably would have encouraged them to fight against the oldies. However,  I no they were financially struggling at the time. They were not only fighting Endless Summer,  but their own fans. I think Mike has had good things to say about that era. Specifically,  he was supportive of bringing Blondie and Ricky on board. He said in his book that as the front man, he was the one promoting the newer songs on stage, and had the scars to show for it. Granted, I would not be one of those. I wish they would have continued to progress and experiment. 

What are these "scars" he's referring to?


Title: Re: Recent thoughts on Jack Rieley by the Beach Boys?
Post by: Kid Presentable on September 10, 2018, 08:47:48 AM
"Plus, I wanted the lead to sound like a dying tree, and if that's what you're going for, Jack Rieley's your man."   :lol :lol :lol


Title: Re: Recent thoughts on Jack Rieley by the Beach Boys?
Post by: Jay on September 10, 2018, 08:58:00 AM
I wonder if a version of the song with Brian singing still exists? Even if he only sang one or two lines before bailing, it would be interesting to hear.


Title: Re: Recent thoughts on Jack Rieley by the Beach Boys?
Post by: HeyJude on September 10, 2018, 09:32:06 AM
I wonder if a version of the song with Brian singing still exists? Even if he only sang one or two lines before bailing, it would be interesting to hear.

It was a bit of an urban legend in past years on the internet that Brian had come out on stage at a show circa 1971 and performed "A Day in the Life of a Tree." The last I can remember, the most accurate version of what actually happened was that at one show, usually cited as Long Beach in December 1971, Jack Rieley came out and sang the song on stage, with reportedly Brian accompanying on organ.

I *still* have the Rusten/Stebbins "In Concert" book in a box out of reach, so that book probably provides the most definitive version of what's known.


Title: Re: Recent thoughts on Jack Rieley by the Beach Boys?
Post by: Magic Transistor Radio on September 10, 2018, 03:07:45 PM


Jack was the best thing that happened for the band. He brought them back from a near death existence with some actual direction and relevant lyrics that complimented their incredible music of that particular era. No, he was not a perfect person but you've got to wonder what direction they would have gone had he stayed on. If Western Justice was any indication, all things BB may have been far better. Who knows, perhaps Mike who so wanted his outrageous share of control would have left them in frustration and that's where things would have gotten very interesting. Perhaps Jack could have rekindled Brian's enthusiasm with the whiney Love out of the way. Food for thought in the "what if" department.

I agree about how Jack pushed the Beach Boys to be more progressive,  leading to 3 of their most mature albums plus their best live album.  He probably would have encouraged them to fight against the oldies. However,  I no they were financially struggling at the time. They were not only fighting Endless Summer,  but their own fans. I think Mike has had good things to say about that era. Specifically,  he was supportive of bringing Blondie and Ricky on board. He said in his book that as the front man, he was the one promoting the newer songs on stage, and had the scars to show for it. Granted, I would not be one of those. I wish they would have continued to progress and experiment. 

What are these "scars" he's referring to?

I believe he is inferring that many fans were very cruel toward the progressive music. Perhaps they literally threw bottles at them in the middle of a song like Long Promised Road or Surf Up. I haven't seen the scars myself. He mentions this in his book. Could have meant emotional scars too. I don't know.


Title: Re: Recent thoughts on Jack Rieley by the Beach Boys?
Post by: c-man on September 10, 2018, 03:10:37 PM
I wonder if a version of the song with Brian singing still exists? Even if he only sang one or two lines before bailing, it would be interesting to hear.

It was a bit of an urban legend in past years on the internet that Brian had come out on stage at a show circa 1971 and performed "A Day in the Life of a Tree." The last I can remember, the most accurate version of what actually happened was that at one show, usually cited as Long Beach in December 1971, Jack Rieley came out and sang the song on stage, with reportedly Brian accompanying on organ.

I *still* have the Rusten/Stebbins "In Concert" book in a box out of reach, so that book probably provides the most definitive version of what's known.

Custom Machine (Rob) - you were there - care to comment?   ;)


Title: Re: Recent thoughts on Jack Rieley by the Beach Boys?
Post by: Custom Machine on September 11, 2018, 06:48:48 PM

I wonder if a version of the song with Brian singing still exists? Even if he only sang one or two lines before bailing, it would be interesting to hear.


It was a bit of an urban legend in past years on the internet that Brian had come out on stage at a show circa 1971 and performed "A Day in the Life of a Tree." The last I can remember, the most accurate version of what actually happened was that at one show, usually cited as Long Beach in December 1971, Jack Rieley came out and sang the song on stage, with reportedly Brian accompanying on organ.

I *still* have the Rusten/Stebbins "In Concert" book in a box out of reach, so that book probably provides the most definitive version of what's known.


Custom Machine (Rob) - you were there - care to comment?   ;)


Yes, I was there, Dec. 3, 1971, Long Beach Arena - easily one of the very best BB concerts I've ever attended. Jack Rieley MC'd the concert, which started quite late as Jack announced that Carl's son Justin had been injured, as I recall from a fall, thus delaying Carl's arrival. Rather than walking out on stage at the same time, the group members individually sauntered out on stage. Bruce was the last guy to show up, stating, "Man, it takes a long time to shoot up!" I recall having a sinking feeling, wondering, "OMG, is Bruce Johnston on smack?" Turns out he was obviously joking.

At some point during the concert it was suggested that A Day in the Life of a Tree be performed. It may have been Jack himself who made the suggestion, or perhaps Mike, I don't really recall. Brian was coaxed up on stage to play the organ, and it did take some coaxing, from both the band and the audience, before he finally agreed, and Jack sang the song.

In my photo of the event a bright spotlight was on Brian, so he just shows up as a big white blob. (This was back in the day when you had only 24 or 36 photos on a roll of film, so you had to be judicious as to when to take a pic.) Toward the end of the concert I was one of a number of fans who had made our way down the aisle to the front of the stage. Suddenly I noticed Brian and Marilyn leaving early, with Brian walking right in front of me and Marilyn behind him.  I figured I had to say something as BW walked by, so I put my hand on his shoulder and said in his right ear, "Surf's Up, Brian!" I later realized I had spoken into the ear in which he has virtually no hearing, not that the three words I spoke would have meant all that much to him anyway, but my intent was to convey that it was really cool that Surf's Up had finally been released.

I made the recording of the concert that has been floating around for years. Unfortunately, the quality is very poor, as I placed a portable cassette recorder, with a low quality built-in mono mic, under my chair and left it there, so the sound is quite muffled. Haven't listened to that recording in quite a few years, but it's probably still floating around the internet for those curious to hear it. You can hear my buddy Ralph blabbing away at times, while I'm trying to be quiet so as to not compete with the on-stage performance.

Another recollection, on a number of occasions Carl would yell out, "What do you want to hear?" The band would then begin playing a song, which I presumed was in response to the songs the crowd had requested. Jack Rieley told the audience something like, "Don't worry, we'll be here all night!" But he later came on stage announcing, "There's some kind of a deal here, the city of Long Beach won't let us play much longer, so we'll have to wrap it up."

The very next night my girlfriend and I saw the BBs at the Sports Arena in San Diego, and I was surprised that the set-list was virtually identical (but no Brian in the audience, although he had appeared in the audience in San Diego summer '68), and thus the BBS were not spontaneously receptive to requests after "What do you want to hear" as I had assumed the night before. The San Diego concert drew a small crowd of only around 2,000, whereas a few years later, after Endless Summer, the band easily sold out the same venue, with around 14,500 fans in attendance.



Title: Re: Recent thoughts on Jack Rieley by the Beach Boys?
Post by: Lee Marshall on September 11, 2018, 07:24:16 PM


Jack was the best thing that happened for the band. He brought them back from a near death existence with some actual direction and relevant lyrics that complimented their incredible music of that particular era. No, he was not a perfect person but you've got to wonder what direction they would have gone had he stayed on. If Western Justice was any indication, all things BB may have been far better. Who knows, perhaps Mike who so wanted his outrageous share of control would have left them in frustration and that's where things would have gotten very interesting. Perhaps Jack could have rekindled Brian's enthusiasm with the whiney Love out of the way. Food for thought in the "what if" department.

I pretty much agree with the old boy here BUT...Sunflower remains a great album and it happened before Jack officially took the reins...thus further raining on the 'love' reign.  I saw the BB's several times during Jack's 'time''.  Carl and Dennis had shown a keen desire to forge a new direction for the group.  Jack's arrival, then, made sense as he helped them to do just that.  What would have happened had Jack not answered the call of the Wilson triumvirate?  'Mid-teen Bigguns'.  Jack's era was remarkably GREAT.  The 'love' era?  Ca ca.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 By the way...at NO TIME during Jack's tenure did I, even once, hear the audience do, say or yell anything which might have 'scarred' ol' Chrome Dome.  If he's scarred...the scars are ALL self inflicted.


Title: Re: Recent thoughts on Jack Rieley by the Beach Boys?
Post by: The LEGENDARY OSD on September 12, 2018, 06:18:35 AM


Jack was the best thing that happened for the band. He brought them back from a near death existence with some actual direction and relevant lyrics that complimented their incredible music of that particular era. No, he was not a perfect person but you've got to wonder what direction they would have gone had he stayed on. If Western Justice was any indication, all things BB may have been far better. Who knows, perhaps Mike who so wanted his outrageous share of control would have left them in frustration and that's where things would have gotten very interesting. Perhaps Jack could have rekindled Brian's enthusiasm with the whiney Love out of the way. Food for thought in the "what if" department.

I pretty much agree with the old boy here BUT...Sunflower remains a great album and it happened before Jack officially took the reins...thus further raining on the 'love' reign.  I saw the BB's several times during Jack's 'time''.  Carl and Dennis had shown a keen desire to forge a new direction for the group.  Jack's arrival, then, made sense as he helped them to do just that.  What would have happened had Jack not answered the call of the Wilson triumvirate?  'Mid-teen Bigguns'.  Jack's era was remarkably GREAT.  The 'love' era?  Ca ca.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 By the way...at NO TIME during Jack's tenure did I, even once, hear the audience do, say or yell anything which might have 'scarred' ol' Chrome Dome.  If he's scarred...the scars are ALL self inflicted.

In total agreement, Lee. like you, I saw them during that era many times and not once did I hear any bickering or shouts of disapproval before, during or after the new material was played. It just goes to show that crybaby luHv's book is certainly not the Beach Boy bible but more of a shopping list of events that this spoiled brat of a clown likes to spout off about.


Title: Re: Recent thoughts on Jack Rieley by the Beach Boys?
Post by: MyDrKnowsItKeepsMeCalm on September 12, 2018, 10:17:53 AM
To be fair to Mike's comment, I feel like I remember live recordings from that '71 era where the audience did indeed call out for old songs. Didn't the BBs start some shows in this era by making a rather defensive general announcement to the effect that they were first going to play their current material and then the audience would get to hear the early hits, so hang on and be patient? It would surely not be a surprise if fans showed up to hear songs from the '62-'66 era. 'Scars' might be a slightly melodramatic way of putting it but it doesn't seem a complete stretch either.



Title: Re: Recent thoughts on Jack Rieley by the Beach Boys?
Post by: mojoman3061 on September 12, 2018, 10:21:30 AM
I don't think I've ever heard his name spoken; I've read it in a number of books, articles, etc.  By the spelling, I'd guess it was pronounced "REE-lee."  Is that correct, or is it pronounced like the name "Riley"?


Title: Re: Recent thoughts on Jack Rieley by the Beach Boys?
Post by: Emdeeh on September 12, 2018, 12:25:16 PM
When the BBs mentioned him at shows in the '70s, they pronounced it "Riley."


Title: Re: Recent thoughts on Jack Rieley by the Beach Boys?
Post by: Custom Machine on September 12, 2018, 12:51:49 PM

To be fair to Mike's comment, I feel like I remember live recordings from that '71 era where the audience did indeed call out for old songs.


Right, it happened all the time. I loved the newer stuff, but unfortunately the majority of the audience members wanted to hear the big hits.


Didn't the BBs start some shows in this era by making a rather defensive general announcement to the effect that they were first going to play their current material and then the audience would get to hear the early hits, so hang on and be patient?


Correct.


'Scars' might be a slightly melodramatic way of putting it but it doesn't seem a complete stretch either.


That's how I took it when I read the book.





Title: Re: Recent thoughts on Jack Rieley by the Beach Boys?
Post by: guitarfool2002 on September 12, 2018, 01:03:26 PM
Fact is we could list almost any concert from nearly any band we or people we know have attended where the crowd either shouted out requests for "the hits" or got restless as new or lesser-known material was played. In some cases, very popular artists would start getting the requests shouted at them veering on heckling if they stayed too long on the "new" songs when a lot of the crowd came to hear the hits. Off the top of my head, I know of two Philly shows from Neil Young and Tom Petty which had the exact same thing happen to them. In Neil's case, which was far from a first from him, some of the audience got hostile as he did his thing on stage. Again, those are just two local examples out of many we all could cite from any number of big artists' live shows through the years.

I see this as others have posted, a near-tradition at concerts (good or bad) being blown up into something it wasn't, perhaps being stated as something that happened at every show during this era when in reality it wasn't quite as bad as some have suggested, and this also being used as part of a list of gripes to air out in a book (or books).

If some want to take it as a mandate or an excuse for whatever...it won't be the first time in BB's history.



Title: Re: Recent thoughts on Jack Rieley by the Beach Boys?
Post by: the captain on September 12, 2018, 01:24:50 PM
I have to say, the idea of an audience reacting tepidly or worse to new material and instead clamoring for hits is about as much of a non-story as there is with respect to successful (or previously successful) bands. GF2002 is entirely correct. I can completely understand a band being frustrated by it and trying to shove new material down the audience’s throats whether they like it or not (as I understand both Bowie and Prince did at times during their careers), and I can understand bands going the other way and giving the audience what they want.
 
That’s not an easy row to hoe. Go too far one way and you’re a self-indulgent asshole who disrespects the fans who financially supported your career. Go too far the other way and you lose all respect and are seen as no longer creative, coasting on your past.
 
Frankly, I think that in the Rieley era, the Beach Boys did a pretty tremendous job of threading that needle. They were performing a good amount of new material—and not restricting it to the kind of “singles from the new album” presentation you got at, say, C50, but truly representing a good variety of their music including multiple songs from multiple recent albums. I can see feeling a little bitter about wanting to show off your new material but having it pushed aside for “Fun, Fun, Fun” or “I Get Around,” but it’s a first-world problem. And complaining too much about it is a little like saying your ass is sore from sitting on your yacht all day…


Title: Re: Recent thoughts on Jack Rieley by the Beach Boys?
Post by: Custom Machine on September 12, 2018, 01:41:47 PM

Fact is we could list almost any concert from nearly any band we or people we know have attended where the crowd either shouted out requests for "the hits" or got restless as new or lesser-known material was played. In some cases, very popular artists would start getting the requests shouted at them veering on heckling if they stayed too long on the "new" songs when a lot of the crowd came to hear the hits. Off the top of my head, I know of two Philly shows from Neil Young and Tom Petty which had the exact same thing happen to them. In Neil's case, which was far from a first from him, some of the audience got hostile as he did his thing on stage. Again, those are just two local examples out of many we all could cite from any number of big artists' live shows through the years.

I see this as others have posted, a near-tradition at concerts (good or bad) being blown up into something it wasn't, perhaps being stated as something that happened at every show during this era when in reality it wasn't quite as bad as some have suggested, and this also being used as part of a list of gripes to air out in a book (or books).

If some want to take it as a mandate or an excuse for whatever...it won't be the first time in BB's history.


When was this blown up into something it wasn't?



Title: Re: Recent thoughts on Jack Rieley by the Beach Boys?
Post by: guitarfool2002 on September 12, 2018, 02:36:35 PM

Fact is we could list almost any concert from nearly any band we or people we know have attended where the crowd either shouted out requests for "the hits" or got restless as new or lesser-known material was played. In some cases, very popular artists would start getting the requests shouted at them veering on heckling if they stayed too long on the "new" songs when a lot of the crowd came to hear the hits. Off the top of my head, I know of two Philly shows from Neil Young and Tom Petty which had the exact same thing happen to them. In Neil's case, which was far from a first from him, some of the audience got hostile as he did his thing on stage. Again, those are just two local examples out of many we all could cite from any number of big artists' live shows through the years.

I see this as others have posted, a near-tradition at concerts (good or bad) being blown up into something it wasn't, perhaps being stated as something that happened at every show during this era when in reality it wasn't quite as bad as some have suggested, and this also being used as part of a list of gripes to air out in a book (or books).

If some want to take it as a mandate or an excuse for whatever...it won't be the first time in BB's history.


When was this blown up into something it wasn't?



Whenever suggestions are made that the live shows in the era being discussed were full of fans yelling and heckling when the band did new material. It was refuted above by fans who were at shows during that era.

Maybe someone should post relevant quotes from Mike's book for the discussion.


Title: Re: Recent thoughts on Jack Rieley by the Beach Boys?
Post by: c-man on September 12, 2018, 03:32:48 PM
I don't think Mike's mi-remembering anything...David Leaf (while also mentioning that some of that era's audiences were great in terms of appreciating the newer material) reported the exact same thing in respect to some audiences, in his book back in '78, and even related that there were "some depressing nights when their cries for 'Help Me Rhonda' drowned out the applause for 'Caroline No'", and "On the nights when the rowdies disrupted the show, the band would shorten the program, leave out some of the slower songs, play the hits, and get out of town." (page 143 of the original edition). To the point of this thread, though, he goes on to write, "It was probably at Jack Riley's insistence that the program stayed in its long form".

 


Title: Re: Recent thoughts on Jack Rieley by the Beach Boys?
Post by: guitarfool2002 on September 12, 2018, 05:30:34 PM
I think it may be overblown. As I said before, find me any major rock act whose concerts did not have the same kind of reaction from their fans to "new material", no less fans shouting requests of their favorite songs to the band on stage. It's a non-story, as the Captain said above, because it is par for the course at rock shows and has been for 50-plus years.

What blows it out of proportion is when a few bootlegs or singled-out concerts are taken as the way it WAS, as in the crowds simply did not dig the new stuff the Beach Boys were playing on stage, while heckling them to play the smash hits.

What struck me was reading the reports posted just this week, on this thread, that it simply wasn't the case for several long-time fans' experiences when they personally saw shows in this same era. It's hardly a case of a few reports from the Leaf book, Mike's book, etc being definitively right in describing fan reactions if fans who were actually at numerous shows didn't witness anything on the level of some of the previous published histories.


And as others have asked, what exactly were the scars Mike suffered, and how was he scarred (or what scarred him?) by these fans shouting requests or reacting a certain way to the new material in the Rieley era?

I seriously want to know, and again it may be helpful to post the quotes direct from Mike's book to see what this scarring is and was, and what Mike is trying to convey by saying that in a book.



PS...There are the usual politics involved with even mentioning Jack Rieley's name. Unless it "goes there", it's impossible to list all of the backstories, but it is worth noting that Jack was 110% supportive of and a champion for the Wilson brothers in terms of moving the band forward, musically and otherwise, and his comments as posted online and in interviews years later did not sit well with - as Jack might have said - the "Non-Wilson" members of the band. This may be why just a few years ago there were certain posters trying to sh*t-can Jack and trash his reputation (never mind what he actually said and witnessed with the band members firsthand) when certain topics came up, but we'll leave it at that for now. Usually the dogs are let loose on someone with less favorable versions of events toward certain band members for a reason, and Jack just happened to be one of them that the dogs came out growling against.


Title: Re: Recent thoughts on Jack Rieley by the Beach Boys?
Post by: guitarfool2002 on September 12, 2018, 05:33:38 PM
And courtesy this board's archives of the old mailing list archives when Jack would drop in 22 years ago to talk, here is one collection of Jack's posts touching on all kinds of topics...Essential reading.

Click to go directly to the archived posts from Jack:

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,9651.msg168258.html#msg168258 (http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,9651.msg168258.html#msg168258)


Title: Re: Recent thoughts on Jack Rieley by the Beach Boys?
Post by: Lee Marshall on September 12, 2018, 08:28:05 PM
That's about as clear a read and as unbiased an inside look as we are likely to ever have access to.  And you know...when you check what it is that Jack had to say about the 'workings' of the 'group'...all one has to do is to look at how it's all unfolded and BOOM!!!...There it is.

I initially came to the various message boards to celebrate the Beach Boys and much of their music in spite of what I knew.  I was willing to let it go...thinking that eventually it would somehow finally mellow out.  But no.  It's only gotten worse.  And I really have to point out that it's not been so much as one of the Wilson's who contributed any further negativity,

Wonderful to see Al walk across the aisle.  Nice to see Blondie back him up.  Too bad to see David caught in the middle of something he had no control over.

Ultimately it leaves me cold.  For some of the participants...good vibrations is merely a song title and a royalty cheque.  I can't celebrate that line of thinking.  I never could.


Title: Re: Recent thoughts on Jack Rieley by the Beach Boys?
Post by: The LEGENDARY OSD on September 12, 2018, 09:31:46 PM
That's about as clear a read and as unbiased an inside look as we are likely to ever have access to.  And you know...when you check what it is that Jack had to say about the 'workings' of the 'group'...all one has to do is to look at how it's all unfolded and BOOM!!!...There it is.

I initially came to the various message boards to celebrate the Beach Boys and much of their music in spite of what I knew.  I was willing to let it go...thinking that eventually it would somehow finally mellow out.  But no.  It's only gotten worse.  And I really have to point out that it's not been so much as one of the Wilson's who contributed any further negativity,

Wonderful to see Al walk across the aisle.  Nice to see Blondie back him up.  Too bad to see David caught in the middle of something he had no control over.

Ultimately it leaves me cold.  For some of the participants...good vibrations is merely a song title and a royalty cheque.  I can't celebrate that line of thinking.  I never could.

Thoughtful, well said thoughts, Lee. And as you might expect from me, so redeeming to be able to hear dialogue from someone who was so tightly associated with the group, namely the Wilson brothers, at what I consider one of the most pivoting times in the band's long history. Incredible to hear him describe his experiences with them and at the same time express his distaste for Love and Johnston (and, yes, Al at that time). I would certainly put a hefty amount of trust in how Jack portrays Love as opposed to what what Love says in his book which is laced with how unfair being a Beach Boy has been for him. What a greedy insidious schmuck he turned out to be being able to work with one of the, if not THE, greatest composers of our time. And it's all wasted because the only things that mean anything to him is the bucks and telling everyone over and over about what HE did.  ::)


Title: Re: Recent thoughts on Jack Rieley by the Beach Boys?
Post by: SMiLE Brian on September 13, 2018, 05:39:06 AM
If it is ever to be completed, then it must be finished by Brian- Jack Rielly on SMiLE :bw


Title: Re: Recent thoughts on Jack Rieley by the Beach Boys?
Post by: guitarfool2002 on September 13, 2018, 08:09:43 AM
That's about as clear a read and as unbiased an inside look as we are likely to ever have access to.  And you know...when you check what it is that Jack had to say about the 'workings' of the 'group'...all one has to do is to look at how it's all unfolded and BOOM!!!...There it is.

I initially came to the various message boards to celebrate the Beach Boys and much of their music in spite of what I knew.  I was willing to let it go...thinking that eventually it would somehow finally mellow out.  But no.  It's only gotten worse.  And I really have to point out that it's not been so much as one of the Wilson's who contributed any further negativity,

Wonderful to see Al walk across the aisle.  Nice to see Blondie back him up.  Too bad to see David caught in the middle of something he had no control over.

Ultimately it leaves me cold.  For some of the participants...good vibrations is merely a song title and a royalty cheque.  I can't celebrate that line of thinking.  I never could.

Thoughtful, well said thoughts, Lee. And as you might expect from me, so redeeming to be able to hear dialogue from someone who was so tightly associated with the group, namely the Wilson brothers, at what I consider one of the most pivoting times in the band's long history. Incredible to hear him describe his experiences with them and at the same time express his distaste for Love and Johnston (and, yes, Al at that time). I would certainly put a hefty amount of trust in how Jack portrays Love as opposed to what what Love says in his book which is laced with how unfair being a Beach Boy has been for him. What a greedy insidious schmuck he turned out to be being able to work with one of the, if not THE, greatest composers of our time. And it's all wasted because the only things that mean anything to him is the bucks and telling everyone over and over about what HE did.  ::)


Well said on many levels. And again I'll point out how refreshing it was to hear both of you who attended multiple concerts during this - for lack of a better term - "Jack Rieley era" in the band's history describe your own firsthand experiences at those shows. It gives more perspective than what I think has been the accepted narrative for too long, how the band doing this new material was met with heckling and calls for the oldies. Yet at the shows you attended, it was not quite as cut and dry as has been reported previously. Great to get firsthand perspective especially on these live shows.


What is great is how we still have Jack in his own words relating what he experienced as part of the band's innermost circle during this time. Thanks to those who saved Jack's posts from 22 years ago on the mailing list, and who reposted them here.

Let readers here and elsewhere and new fans who came into all this after Jack was posting read his words for themselves, and make up their own minds from there, free of any attempts to discredit Jack or lessen the weight of his commentary. The words are there for all to read, and I hope more do choose to take a few minutes to click on that link and read what he said.

What you read isn't quite the narrative that some would rather promote, in terms of what happened at that time. There are several comments that should stand out in terms of the history and the telling of that history in subsequent years.

Fact - Jack's words have been available for over 20 years, from this and other sources where he spoke. Some of us read those words and might just think something doesn't quite jive when other narratives appear...but I'll leave it at that.

Lee - You nailed it. It is all laid out right there. Combine Jack's comments with other "managers" and their eventual fates (including Mike's own brother who got thrown under the bus and is still estranged), along with how the band's career ended up playing out after Jack, and you'll see the connections. It's not the only case of the past being part of the same roadmap as what would happen in the future with this band and these characters in the drama.

It can be revelatory to read jack describing Mike waving his finger in the air at a meeting then declaring "I AM the Beach Boys!", and realizing that's been the mindset driving a lot of things since the early 70's. And it's a mindset which Jack for one spotted and thought it would be more helpful to the band to get the Wilsons more actively writing and more up-front within the band to move things forward. They were doing it, but unfortunately the power plays within the band and families didn't allow it to come full circle. At least we got solo material from the Wilsons as part of the deal...

And I'd point out again how Jack was a target for some circles of fandom and pseudo-historians who focused more on trashing him than they did what he actually said. Add Jack to the list that includes Vosse, Anderle, Jules Seigel, et al...people who saw and reported what they saw firsthand, but whose reputations were attacked and diminished perhaps because some didn't want *what they were saying* to be accepted into the history of the band. In favor of other narratives of course. And then add the attempts to assign the word "toxic" to others who are still alive if they too report things that don't jive with the chosen narrative and telling of the history.

When this whole f***ed up mess of a fandom and ersatz "insiders" and the whole lot gets to be too much, just put on the music and read some of the firsthand descriptions and commentary from those like Jack free of any attempts to harangue people into believing the messenger is flawed, therefore the message is invalid. You'll get a more full version of the history that way, and hear some great tunes in the process.


Title: Re: Recent thoughts on Jack Rieley by the Beach Boys?
Post by: Jon Stebbins on September 13, 2018, 08:26:30 AM
I'd say that anyone who believes that the fact that The Beach Boys were not constantly bombarded  by requests for the oldies, or that large elements of their audiences were not indifferent to their newer material needs to sit down and read The Beach Boys In Concert book where this is all spelled out meticulously in real time. The views are not anecdotal or from a random bootleg. They are the descriptions and views of writers and fans and musicians who were there, and who logged these impressions not in retrospect but at the time. I had to actually edit down that element of the book because Ian had gathered so many reviews stating this phenomena that it became redundant. The Beach Boys were a unique case in that they had struggled to shed themselves of the squareness of their early image, which they steadily and incrementally did. But what happened was much of their audience pivoted back to re-falling in love with the oldies before the group had really sold the world that the new stuff was just as important as the old stuff. The Stones and other groups had no such problems. People weren't screaming for Get Off My Cloud and Not Fade Away at '73 Stones shows. They were wanting to hear the material from the last few LPs. The Beach Boys got bombarded, blindsided even. They woke up to a growing oldies demanding audience that dwarfed the modest one they had built who loved their newer songs. I don't think you can minimize the problem that created for those in the band that wanted to grow creatively.


Title: Re: Recent thoughts on Jack Rieley by the Beach Boys?
Post by: guitarfool2002 on September 13, 2018, 08:42:58 AM
I'd say that anyone who believes that the fact that The Beach Boys were not constantly bombarded  by requests for the oldies, or that large elements of their audiences were not indifferent to their newer material needs to sit down and read The Beach Boys In Concert book where this is all spelled out meticulously in real time. The views are not anecdotal or from a random bootleg. They are the descriptions and views of writers and fans and musicians who were there, and who logged these impressions not in retrospect but at the time. I had to actually edit down that element of the book because Ian had gathered so many reviews stating this phenomena that it became redundant. The Beach Boys were a unique case in that they had struggled to shed themselves of the squareness of their early image, which they steadily and incrementally did. But what happened was much of their audience pivoted back to re-falling in love with the oldies before the group had really sold the world that the new stuff was just as important as the old stuff. The Stones and other groups had no such problems. People weren't screaming for Get Off My Cloud and Not Fade Away at '73 Stones shows. They were wanting to hear the material from the last few LPs. The Beach Boys got bombarded, blindsided even. They woke up to a growing oldies demanding audience that dwarfed the modest one they had built who loved their newer songs. I don't think you can minimize the problem that created for those in the band that wanted to grow creatively.

I understand and respect what you're saying Jon, as you literally wrote the book on the subject - and I'm not trying to counter or minimize what you say either. It was just surprising to hear what other fans who attended these shows at this time had to say about their own experiences, and recollections about the crowd behaviors which were not as blatant as I think some have suggested. I also think there were regional sensibilities at play, where perhaps some areas the band played had more receptive and respectful crowds overall than others. But the recollections do add a wider perspective to the topic, as in people relating that what they experienced was not what others experienced.

I will go back to saying that this issue of fans calling out for old material or "hits" at shows was in no way exclusive to the Beach Boys, understanding they had to shoulder their fair share of it.

I gave just two (more recent) examples of major artists who had the same thing happen in the modern era, "legacy artists" at that whose fans were outright hostile toward them when they got restless hearing the newer or experimental stuff instead of what classic rock radio spins in heavy rotation. I also recall some in the audience getting antsy if not calling out hits when the Stones were playing cuts from Steel Wheels, or McCartney was playing tunes from "Flowers In The Dirt" when fans wanted to hear the old hits.

And it slipped my mind until now that a pretty big hit from the early 70's was written specifically to address this issue of fans wanting the hits. "Garden Party" by Rick Nelson. An entire song about an artist changing direction or image as he wanted to, yet being met with hostility from his fans who only wanted to hear the hits.

Basically the same era and time frame as the Rieley era, 1972. And the clincher in the lyrics was Nelson's last line:

"If you gotta play at garden parties, I wish you a lotta luck. But if memories were all I sang, I rather drive a truck.
And it's all right now, learned my lesson well. You see, ya can't please everyone, so you got to please yourself"





Title: Re: Recent thoughts on Jack Rieley by the Beach Boys?
Post by: Jon Stebbins on September 13, 2018, 09:32:43 AM
I'd say that anyone who believes that the fact that The Beach Boys were not constantly bombarded  by requests for the oldies, or that large elements of their audiences were not indifferent to their newer material needs to sit down and read The Beach Boys In Concert book where this is all spelled out meticulously in real time. The views are not anecdotal or from a random bootleg. They are the descriptions and views of writers and fans and musicians who were there, and who logged these impressions not in retrospect but at the time. I had to actually edit down that element of the book because Ian had gathered so many reviews stating this phenomena that it became redundant. The Beach Boys were a unique case in that they had struggled to shed themselves of the squareness of their early image, which they steadily and incrementally did. But what happened was much of their audience pivoted back to re-falling in love with the oldies before the group had really sold the world that the new stuff was just as important as the old stuff. The Stones and other groups had no such problems. People weren't screaming for Get Off My Cloud and Not Fade Away at '73 Stones shows. They were wanting to hear the material from the last few LPs. The Beach Boys got bombarded, blindsided even. They woke up to a growing oldies demanding audience that dwarfed the modest one they had built who loved their newer songs. I don't think you can minimize the problem that created for those in the band that wanted to grow creatively.

I understand and respect what you're saying Jon, as you literally wrote the book on the subject - and I'm not trying to counter or minimize what you say either. It was just surprising to hear what other fans who attended these shows at this time had to say about their own experiences, and recollections about the crowd behaviors which were not as blatant as I think some have suggested. I also think there were regional sensibilities at play, where perhaps some areas the band played had more receptive and respectful crowds overall than others. But the recollections do add a wider perspective to the topic, as in people relating that what they experienced was not what others experienced.

I will go back to saying that this issue of fans calling out for old material or "hits" at shows was in no way exclusive to the Beach Boys, understanding they had to shoulder their fair share of it.

I gave just two (more recent) examples of major artists who had the same thing happen in the modern era, "legacy artists" at that whose fans were outright hostile toward them when they got restless hearing the newer or experimental stuff instead of what classic rock radio spins in heavy rotation. I also recall some in the audience getting antsy if not calling out hits when the Stones were playing cuts from Steel Wheels, or McCartney was playing tunes from "Flowers In The Dirt" when fans wanted to hear the old hits.

And it slipped my mind until now that a pretty big hit from the early 70's was written specifically to address this issue of fans wanting the hits. "Garden Party" by Rick Nelson. An entire song about an artist changing direction or image as he wanted to, yet being met with hostility from his fans who only wanted to hear the hits.

Basically the same era and time frame as the Rieley era, 1972. And the clincher in the lyrics was Nelson's last line:

"If you gotta play at garden parties, I wish you a lotta luck. But if memories were all I sang, I rather drive a truck.
And it's all right now, learned my lesson well. You see, ya can't please everyone, so you got to please yourself"




I agree that this is a syndrome that has permeated the music business forever, I'm sure Sinatra and Elvis and so many others had to fend off constant requests and people's tendency to want what they know. However, I'd suggest that the Beach Boys in particular had to deal with the syndrome on steroids due to a number of elements. Timing for one. The clean cut nostalgia wave hit America just as Carl's beard was getting really good, and just as Mike's meditation robe was draped perfectly, just as Brian was hitting about 250lbs...I jest, but in a way it caught them off guard as they were moving away from clean cut, and America suddenly wanted it back. The Beach Boys (as in the "Surfin  USA" Beach Boys) were the perfect vehicle, a sunny, harmonizing, bikini loving, fossil fuel toasting entity that in it's most surface perception were simple, clean and fun. Of course the only part of that is really true was the fun. They were not very clean, and the exact opposite of simple. But the music of 62-65 somehow represented exactly what America wanted, and funnily, other that the paychecks, the Beach Boys themselves really didn't want that anymore. they'd been working hard to move on from all of that. And then they couldn't anymore because the landscape shifted.And they ended up trying to go back, over and over and over, and it got ugly, at least to me it did. I think for Carl it did too, for Dennis it definitely did, and Brian...well Brian has the biggest burden to carry around because it's his articulation of the sun/fun era that changed the world and still is worshipped, so how could he divest himself from it. By slowly killing himself, or by just rolling with it all in a typically weird Brian way.

I'm in agreement with most all the info and thoughts in the posts here that are pro-Rieley, and call Mike out on his tendency to spin history to his advantage. The real truth is always nuanced and multi-leveled and multi-shaded. I like the idea that the Beach Boys were really celebrated and loved in the Rieley era, and I'm sure there was a solid audience that were with them, the numbers show that, they were growing. We just didn't get a chance to see how much they would grow because, as i said, the landscape shifted and they were overtaken by it. To me the real gravestone is 15 Big Ones. And I know there are people that love it. I loved It's OK in it's time for sure. But to me it represents the white flag. We give in. POB was a glorious counter to that, Love You was an unhittable curveball to that , but really they never got back to the Holland momentum or artistic maturity as a group. To me it's very sad, and people who have read the In Concert book often say that to me, they love the book, but damn it's a sad story when told in real time.


Title: Re: Recent thoughts on Jack Rieley by the Beach Boys?
Post by: guitarfool2002 on September 13, 2018, 10:11:37 AM
I'd say that anyone who believes that the fact that The Beach Boys were not constantly bombarded  by requests for the oldies, or that large elements of their audiences were not indifferent to their newer material needs to sit down and read The Beach Boys In Concert book where this is all spelled out meticulously in real time. The views are not anecdotal or from a random bootleg. They are the descriptions and views of writers and fans and musicians who were there, and who logged these impressions not in retrospect but at the time. I had to actually edit down that element of the book because Ian had gathered so many reviews stating this phenomena that it became redundant. The Beach Boys were a unique case in that they had struggled to shed themselves of the squareness of their early image, which they steadily and incrementally did. But what happened was much of their audience pivoted back to re-falling in love with the oldies before the group had really sold the world that the new stuff was just as important as the old stuff. The Stones and other groups had no such problems. People weren't screaming for Get Off My Cloud and Not Fade Away at '73 Stones shows. They were wanting to hear the material from the last few LPs. The Beach Boys got bombarded, blindsided even. They woke up to a growing oldies demanding audience that dwarfed the modest one they had built who loved their newer songs. I don't think you can minimize the problem that created for those in the band that wanted to grow creatively.

I understand and respect what you're saying Jon, as you literally wrote the book on the subject - and I'm not trying to counter or minimize what you say either. It was just surprising to hear what other fans who attended these shows at this time had to say about their own experiences, and recollections about the crowd behaviors which were not as blatant as I think some have suggested. I also think there were regional sensibilities at play, where perhaps some areas the band played had more receptive and respectful crowds overall than others. But the recollections do add a wider perspective to the topic, as in people relating that what they experienced was not what others experienced.

I will go back to saying that this issue of fans calling out for old material or "hits" at shows was in no way exclusive to the Beach Boys, understanding they had to shoulder their fair share of it.

I gave just two (more recent) examples of major artists who had the same thing happen in the modern era, "legacy artists" at that whose fans were outright hostile toward them when they got restless hearing the newer or experimental stuff instead of what classic rock radio spins in heavy rotation. I also recall some in the audience getting antsy if not calling out hits when the Stones were playing cuts from Steel Wheels, or McCartney was playing tunes from "Flowers In The Dirt" when fans wanted to hear the old hits.

And it slipped my mind until now that a pretty big hit from the early 70's was written specifically to address this issue of fans wanting the hits. "Garden Party" by Rick Nelson. An entire song about an artist changing direction or image as he wanted to, yet being met with hostility from his fans who only wanted to hear the hits.

Basically the same era and time frame as the Rieley era, 1972. And the clincher in the lyrics was Nelson's last line:

"If you gotta play at garden parties, I wish you a lotta luck. But if memories were all I sang, I rather drive a truck.
And it's all right now, learned my lesson well. You see, ya can't please everyone, so you got to please yourself"




I agree that this is a syndrome that has permeated the music business forever, I'm sure Sinatra and Elvis and so many others had to fend off constant requests and people's tendency to want what they know. However, I'd suggest that the Beach Boys in particular had to deal with the syndrome on steroids due to a number of elements. Timing for one. The clean cut nostalgia wave hit America just as Carl's beard was getting really good, and just as Mike's meditation robe was draped perfectly, just as Brian was hitting about 250lbs...I jest, but in a way it caught them off guard as they were moving away from clean cut, and America suddenly wanted it back. The Beach Boys (as in the "Surfin  USA" Beach Boys) were the perfect vehicle, a sunny, harmonizing, bikini loving, fossil fuel toasting entity that in it's most surface perception were simple, clean and fun. Of course the only part of that is really true was the fun. They were not very clean, and the exact opposite of simple. But the music of 62-65 somehow represented exactly what America wanted, and funnily, other that the paychecks, the Beach Boys themselves really didn't want that anymore. they'd been working hard to move on from all of that. And then they couldn't anymore because the landscape shifted.And they ended up trying to go back, over and over and over, and it got ugly, at least to me it did. I think for Carl it did too, for Dennis it definitely did, and Brian...well Brian has the biggest burden to carry around because it's his articulation of the sun/fun era that changed the world and still is worshipped, so how could he divest himself from it. By slowly killing himself, or by just rolling with it all in a typically weird Brian way.

I'm in agreement with most all the info and thoughts in the posts here that are pro-Rieley, and call Mike out on his tendency to spin history to his advantage. The real truth is always nuanced and multi-leveled and multi-shaded. I like the idea that the Beach Boys were really celebrated and loved in the Rieley era, and I'm sure there was a solid audience that were with them, the numbers show that, they were growing. We just didn't get a chance to see how much they would grow because, as i said, the landscape shifted and they were overtaken by it. To me the real gravestone is 15 Big Ones. And I know there are people that love it. I loved It's OK in it's time for sure. But to me it represents the white flag. We give in. POB was a glorious counter to that, Love You was an unhittable curveball to that , but really they never got back to the Holland momentum or artistic maturity as a group. To me it's very sad, and people who have read the In Concert book often say that to me, they love the book, but damn it's a sad story when told in real time.

Very well said, and hitting on the cultural context is also key to getting that big picture element into a lot of these points. Blame George Lucas? Haha, just kidding. But there was a shift back to the "good old days" and golden oldies and "Happy Days" and all of that. A nice veneer to brush over the actual foundation. I guess that happens in cycles with pop culture, but yes the early 70's nostalgia wave definitely complicated it for the Beach Boys. I'd even go so far as to include Lennon's "Rock And Roll" project into this. As much as the sessions were a bacchanale and a chance to get blitzed and play oldies, there was a reason why even Lennon chose to eschew original tunes and record 50's covers when he did.

I would say that Rieley was onto something big. For one, getting the Wilsons in the forefront of the band's original music was *huge* and needed. There was so much they could offer, but as seen in Rieley's comments, there was also some resistance from within the band.

But I think Rieley's biggest coup could have been tapping into the audience that was looking for something else. I compare it to the mindset that Lorne Michaels and his inner circle were running on when they were developing SNL. There was an audience who wanted what was not being offered on TV. It was a demographic that was ignored by network TV, but which flourished at underground theaters, late-night movie houses, in more progressive areas and college towns, and especially within those crowds that would go to rock concerts. And yes, the drug culture was a component of that.

So when Lorne did get the green light for a late night comedy/variety show for the kids who were buying George Carlin albums, the National Lampoon, and going to rock concerts that lasted 2-3 hours or more at places like the Fillmore where you could get a contact high simply by walking past an open door, it was directed at the same audience that I think Jack Rieley was envisioning for the Beach Boys. It took time...much like SNL as innovative as it was in 75-76 took at least 2 years to really hit its stride and find a groove. Ironically, of course, when the Loves and Landy got into the mix, SNL tapped only Brian Wilson to appear as a musical guest.

I think Rieley had a vision, perhaps or perhaps not shared by at least Carl and Dennis, that the Beach Boys would have been pursued as a musical guest on a show like SNL, as soon as a show like SNL actually went on the air to tap into that ignored audience.

I believe Rieley saw a band that would be embraced by the same crowds as were watching the early SNL when people like Carlin and Richard Pryor hosted, a band who should have been getting more respect for their music but who was going to keep playing great shows and making new music (a lot on the strength of allowing Carl and Dennis to really grow as writers) and building up that audience who also wanted to see a long rock show with experimentation and top musicianship rather than a 45 minute set of hits and car medleys. And a band who would go back to making solid *albums* of original music, helmed by the talents of the Wilsons.

I guess it's the potential that got stopped short for various reasons that is one of the sadder parts to consider. Another in a long list of "what if?" moments that plague this band's history. Who knows what would have happened if the internal power plays that saw Mike's brothers take control didn't happen, and Rieley's plans to earn a new audience and earn back respect from rock fans not into nostalgia could have developed over a few more years. It could have crashed and burned, yes - But it also could have been a terrific ride for all involved.

Reading Jack's old posts, it's still the story of Mike saying "I AM the Beach Boys" in the early 70's that stands out for me as a key factor in so much of the band's history up to the present day. Once that mindset which has existed for at least 45 years is connected to other events from the decisions to fire and hire managers, to the musical decisions being made, up to anything else related, it all starts adding up. But it's that lost potential that turned into 15 Big Ones and nostalgia shows rather than new, creative musical directions that I think is the clincher. At least we got POB out of the deal.


Title: Re: Recent thoughts on Jack Rieley by the Beach Boys?
Post by: SMiLE Brian on September 13, 2018, 10:31:45 AM
Great post GF and Jon!

Another unsung part of this story is Al Jardine. Al has had quite the transformation from "non-Wilson" faction to BW's musical partner in the 21st century. Was it Mike's power grab and Carl's resurgence as "band leader" that changed things?

The Carlin book's description of the 2005 Hawthorne statue dedication and Al's (paraphrased) quote of "we have to stop the fighting" to BW was most revealing...   


Title: Re: Recent thoughts on Jack Rieley by the Beach Boys?
Post by: CenturyDeprived on September 13, 2018, 11:11:56 AM

Reading Jack's old posts, it's still the story of Mike saying "I AM the Beach Boys" in the early 70's that stands out for me as a key factor in so much of the band's history up to the present day. Once that mindset which has existed for at least 45 years is connected to other events from the decisions to fire and hire managers, to the musical decisions being made, up to anything else related, it all starts adding up. But it's that lost potential that turned into 15 Big Ones and nostalgia shows rather than new, creative musical directions that I think is the clincher. At least we got POB out of the deal.

Other than actual, literal tragedies involving the Wilson brothers' lives, Mike's extreme egomania is the worst thing that ever happened to the band. Everyone knows it, whether they want to publicly admit it or not. It's the big white elephant in the room that has never been outright said or examined in any official documentary, book, etc (and entire book or doc could be made on just this sole subject).

Even though it hasn't been outright publicly said verbatim by insiders, people like Jack - who had guts - certainly implied it, IMHO. That Mike (who always mentions the deaths of BBs associates) conspicuously omitted Jack from any public mention/mourning at the time of Jack's death cannot be some random coincidence.

Of course, this doesn't have any negative bearing on the many *actual* great artistic and vocal contributions Mike also inarguably brought to the band. Mike's real talent and the tragedy of his egomania are not mutually exclusive.

Mike's comment is just like Jock Ewing on Dallas "Who do you think Ewing Oil is? It's MEEEE!!!":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGdfPtW56fo&t=1m25s



Title: Re: Recent thoughts on Jack Rieley by the Beach Boys?
Post by: the captain on September 13, 2018, 11:27:11 AM
Mike's real talent and the tragedy of his egomania are not mutually exclusive.

Yes.


Title: Re: Recent thoughts on Jack Rieley by the Beach Boys?
Post by: B.E. on September 13, 2018, 11:46:18 AM
I would say that Rieley was onto something big. For one, getting the Wilsons in the forefront of the band's original music was *huge* and needed. There was so much they could offer, but as seen in Rieley's comments, there was also some resistance from within the band.

Brian seems anything but in the forefront of the band's music during the Rieley era. I don't blame Jack. I'm sure he would have liked Brian to contribute more, but all Brian really contributed to the cause was ADITLOAT, Funky Pretty, and Mt Vernon (which ironically would have included oldies if Brian had completed his vision). I just find it a little weird when I read about Jack and his support of the Wilsons (which I don't doubt) and then listen to the records and hear less Brian and Dennis.


Title: Re: Recent thoughts on Jack Rieley by the Beach Boys?
Post by: JakeH on September 13, 2018, 12:20:26 PM
Touchy issue... in my opinion the Rieley-era (whatever you want to call it) is susceptible to overstatement in terms of significance.  First of all, I doubt that the politics of the group at that time could be reduced to a simple Jack & Wilson Bros. vs. the non-artists/non-creative faction, because I doubt that the three brothers were ever really united.  They came from a severely dysfunctional situation, the kind in which siblings are divided, or have trouble relating to one another or communicating with one another (Brian alluded to this issue on the song, "Southern California" (the "...supporting each other" part)).   Personally, I believe that the Beach Boys was never set up, from the inception to be a Wilson Bros.' band, and it certainly was not set up, or conceived to be Brian Wilson's band (Brian made the mistake circa Pet Sounds and Smile in behaving as if the Beach Boys was his own solo vehicle).  It was set up to be Murry's band ("Murry's puppets") and what you see happening in, say, '63 - '66 is an effort (led by Brian and perhaps supported by others, perhaps not) to violently wrest control from the miserable human being Murry and everything that he represented.  Just because Murry, as an individual, was somewhat marginalized as of, say, Pet Sounds, doesn't mean that Brian, or a "Wilson Bros." concept was ascendant. It was like a loose ball fumble in football or basketball. Nobody had control.  Brian was in the catbird seat in '66 and tried (in his strange, passive way) to do something in '66 and '67, and it didn't pan out.  Then the "identity crisis" phase begins, which lasts until Endless Summer and 15 Big Ones, at which point, as Jon Stebbins says, it's finally over.

Which leads us to Jack. Jack's big idea, basically was basically to be a good music group.  What a concept; this was Brian's "concept" starting with the songs on Side 2 of Today, and then, of course Pet Sounds and Smile. That concept was forget the marketing, let's put out the best music - musically, conceptually, lyrically - that we can (sadly, Brian has to essentially do this outside the group, with outsiders like Asher, Parks and the Wrecking Crew).  Brian didn't need a Jack Rieley to "advise" him on what to do. He was already doing it in the 1960s, and it didn't work.  By the time Jack popped up, Brian was effectively done with the Beach Boys, notwithstanding some good songs here and there, his Beach Boy career was basically over, and no way Jack could have changed that.

Anyway it comes as no surprise, then that the big draw in '71, is the song  "Surf's Up" and an album of the same name. That is, under Jack's guidance, the group goes back to what Brian (with Van Dyke Parks's help) was doing way back 5 years before.  In that sense there's was nothing really new about Jack's notions.  But if it couldn't work in '66-'67, why would it work in '71-'72? My main point (I think...) is that as usual with this group, everything turns back to 1966 and 1967.  The Jack-era was merely a recapitulation of the same interpersonal dynamics; new events in form, but not in substance.

In defense of Mike-Bruce-Al, they shouldn't be forced to be something that they're not. 


 


Title: Re: Recent thoughts on Jack Rieley by the Beach Boys?
Post by: Custom Machine on September 13, 2018, 02:03:12 PM

I don't think Mike's mi-remembering anything...David Leaf (while also mentioning that some of that era's audiences were great in terms of appreciating the newer material) reported the exact same thing in respect to some audiences, in his book back in '78, and even related that there were "some depressing nights when their cries for 'Help Me Rhonda' drowned out the applause for 'Caroline No'", and "On the nights when the rowdies disrupted the show, the band would shorten the program, leave out some of the slower songs, play the hits, and get out of town." (page 143 of the original edition). To the point of this thread, though, he goes on to write, "It was probably at Jack Riley's insistence that the program stayed in its long form".



I'd say that anyone who believes that the fact that The Beach Boys were not constantly bombarded  by requests for the oldies, or that large elements of their audiences were not indifferent to their newer material needs to sit down and read The Beach Boys In Concert book where this is all spelled out meticulously in real time. The views are not anecdotal or from a random bootleg. They are the descriptions and views of writers and fans and musicians who were there, and who logged these impressions not in retrospect but at the time. I had to actually edit down that element of the book because Ian had gathered so many reviews stating this phenomena that it became redundant. The Beach Boys were a unique case in that they had struggled to shed themselves of the squareness of their early image, which they steadily and incrementally did. But what happened was much of their audience pivoted back to re-falling in love with the oldies before the group had really sold the world that the new stuff was just as important as the old stuff. The Stones and other groups had no such problems. People weren't screaming for Get Off My Cloud and Not Fade Away at '73 Stones shows. They were wanting to hear the material from the last few LPs. The Beach Boys got bombarded, blindsided even. They woke up to a growing oldies demanding audience that dwarfed the modest one they had built who loved their newer songs. I don't think you can minimize the problem that created for those in the band that wanted to grow creatively.


I attended many concerts during this era, and I would like to thank c-man and Jon for setting the record straight, despite Guitarfool's unfortunate attempts to minimize what the band was experiencing.



Title: Re: Recent thoughts on Jack Rieley by the Beach Boys?
Post by: guitarfool2002 on September 13, 2018, 02:10:47 PM

I don't think Mike's mi-remembering anything...David Leaf (while also mentioning that some of that era's audiences were great in terms of appreciating the newer material) reported the exact same thing in respect to some audiences, in his book back in '78, and even related that there were "some depressing nights when their cries for 'Help Me Rhonda' drowned out the applause for 'Caroline No'", and "On the nights when the rowdies disrupted the show, the band would shorten the program, leave out some of the slower songs, play the hits, and get out of town." (page 143 of the original edition). To the point of this thread, though, he goes on to write, "It was probably at Jack Riley's insistence that the program stayed in its long form".



I'd say that anyone who believes that the fact that The Beach Boys were not constantly bombarded  by requests for the oldies, or that large elements of their audiences were not indifferent to their newer material needs to sit down and read The Beach Boys In Concert book where this is all spelled out meticulously in real time. The views are not anecdotal or from a random bootleg. They are the descriptions and views of writers and fans and musicians who were there, and who logged these impressions not in retrospect but at the time. I had to actually edit down that element of the book because Ian had gathered so many reviews stating this phenomena that it became redundant. The Beach Boys were a unique case in that they had struggled to shed themselves of the squareness of their early image, which they steadily and incrementally did. But what happened was much of their audience pivoted back to re-falling in love with the oldies before the group had really sold the world that the new stuff was just as important as the old stuff. The Stones and other groups had no such problems. People weren't screaming for Get Off My Cloud and Not Fade Away at '73 Stones shows. They were wanting to hear the material from the last few LPs. The Beach Boys got bombarded, blindsided even. They woke up to a growing oldies demanding audience that dwarfed the modest one they had built who loved their newer songs. I don't think you can minimize the problem that created for those in the band that wanted to grow creatively.


I attended many concerts during this era, and I would like to thank c-man and Jon for setting the record straight, despite Guitarfool's unfortunate attempts to minimize what the band was experiencing.



My unfortunate attempts? I was going on what two fellow posters who saw multiple shows remembered from their own experiences, which were different than yours. That's my fault for pointing that out?

Please.

Oh, and did you read anything else I wrote in this thread and care to discuss the topic at hand or is this just an unfortunate attempt to distract from the good discussion happening here?


Title: Re: Recent thoughts on Jack Rieley by the Beach Boys?
Post by: guitarfool2002 on September 13, 2018, 02:14:40 PM
I would say that Rieley was onto something big. For one, getting the Wilsons in the forefront of the band's original music was *huge* and needed. There was so much they could offer, but as seen in Rieley's comments, there was also some resistance from within the band.

Brian seems anything but in the forefront of the band's music during the Rieley era. I don't blame Jack. I'm sure he would have liked Brian to contribute more, but all Brian really contributed to the cause was ADITLOAT, Funky Pretty, and Mt Vernon (which ironically would have included oldies if Brian had completed his vision). I just find it a little weird when I read about Jack and his support of the Wilsons (which I don't doubt) and then listen to the records and hear less Brian and Dennis.

If you read through Jack's posts at the link above, he addresses some of this specifically. See what he said about Student Demonstration Time making it onto the album and how Carl wanted to sequence it.


Title: Re: Recent thoughts on Jack Rieley by the Beach Boys?
Post by: Custom Machine on September 13, 2018, 02:25:33 PM

In defense of Mike-Bruce-Al, they shouldn't be forced to be something that they're not. 


Jack Rieley's perspective in his 1996 posts on the old Pet Sounds mailing list are essential reading in order to best understand Beach Boys history during that era. It's also important to understand that one aspect of the dynamic was those who were into drugs (perceived as "the hipsters") - Jack and the Wilsons, vs those who were against them (perceived as "the squares") - Mike, Al, and Bruce.


Mike's real talent and the tragedy of his egomania are not mutually exclusive.


Well said.



Title: Re: Recent thoughts on Jack Rieley by the Beach Boys?
Post by: The LEGENDARY OSD on September 13, 2018, 02:45:55 PM

I don't think Mike's mi-remembering anything...David Leaf (while also mentioning that some of that era's audiences were great in terms of appreciating the newer material) reported the exact same thing in respect to some audiences, in his book back in '78, and even related that there were "some depressing nights when their cries for 'Help Me Rhonda' drowned out the applause for 'Caroline No'", and "On the nights when the rowdies disrupted the show, the band would shorten the program, leave out some of the slower songs, play the hits, and get out of town." (page 143 of the original edition). To the point of this thread, though, he goes on to write, "It was probably at Jack Riley's insistence that the program stayed in its long form".



I'd say that anyone who believes that the fact that The Beach Boys were not constantly bombarded  by requests for the oldies, or that large elements of their audiences were not indifferent to their newer material needs to sit down and read The Beach Boys In Concert book where this is all spelled out meticulously in real time. The views are not anecdotal or from a random bootleg. They are the descriptions and views of writers and fans and musicians who were there, and who logged these impressions not in retrospect but at the time. I had to actually edit down that element of the book because Ian had gathered so many reviews stating this phenomena that it became redundant. The Beach Boys were a unique case in that they had struggled to shed themselves of the squareness of their early image, which they steadily and incrementally did. But what happened was much of their audience pivoted back to re-falling in love with the oldies before the group had really sold the world that the new stuff was just as important as the old stuff. The Stones and other groups had no such problems. People weren't screaming for Get Off My Cloud and Not Fade Away at '73 Stones shows. They were wanting to hear the material from the last few LPs. The Beach Boys got bombarded, blindsided even. They woke up to a growing oldies demanding audience that dwarfed the modest one they had built who loved their newer songs. I don't think you can minimize the problem that created for those in the band that wanted to grow creatively.


I attended many concerts during this era, and I would like to thank c-man and Jon for setting the record straight, despite Guitarfool's unfortunate attempts to minimize what the band was experiencing.



My unfortunate attempts? I was going on what two fellow posters who saw multiple shows remembered from their own experiences, which were different than yours. That's my fault for pointing that out?

Please.

Oh, and did you read anything else I wrote in this thread and care to discuss the topic at hand or is this just an unfortunate attempt to distract from the good discussion happening here?

GF, DLTBGYD!! As if it would. Not that you need any back up but I had the same thoughts about his post which seemed he was hell bent on making you look like you had no idea what you were talking about when in reality you've most likely forgotten more than he's ever known.  ;)


Title: Re: Recent thoughts on Jack Rieley by the Beach Boys?
Post by: guitarfool2002 on September 13, 2018, 03:36:07 PM
I've seen it before. Heck, I even hinted at it in one of my posts above. Jack Rieley is a lightening rod in some circles because some circles don't like what he had to say, and don't wish to have his version of events on the table especially if they contradict whatever narrative is being promoted elsewhere. So Jack gets trashed and sometimes those who may have read what he said and put more stock in that than other versions end up in the firing line too. When it starts cutting too close to the bone, it's happened before where distractions are attempted to derail from the discussion.

Whether or not that was the case here, it was an unnecessary cheap shot to take and it won't stand. Especially since I've been posting a lot in this topic and having good discussions with others.

Let's get down to brass tacks. If what Jack said did not cast doubts on Mike's narratives, and show Mike in what some would call an unfavorable light, these distractions would not show up.

Whatever issues Jack had, if we are talking about the music and moving the band forward to get them the respect they deserved, Jack had the Wilsons'  back. And he wanted to see their best interests protected, even when their bandmates were talking sh*t about them.


Title: Re: Recent thoughts on Jack Rieley by the Beach Boys?
Post by: guitarfool2002 on September 13, 2018, 03:45:29 PM
>>>>Subject: 'Til I Die
From: Jack Rieley 
To: Beach Boys list (pet-sounds@lists.primenet.com)
Date: Oct 13 1996 - 9:52am

Mike,

Near the end of recording of the Surfs Up album, in a parking lot off 
Sunset Boulevard where Love, Jardine and Johnston requested that I 
join them at some awful vegetarian restaurant, following a meal that 
they raved about and I detested, after they had complained with 
particularly venomous fervor about the brothers Wilson, Love took me 
aside, stared furiously at me, curled his lip and snorted nastily, 
"Long after you are no longer part of the Beach Boys, I will be 
writing songs with Brian, and don't you ever forget that." He stabbed 
the air to emphasize "don't", "you", "ever" and "forget." That wasn't 
all. I..." he exclaimed, "I AM the Beach Boys!"

Love didn't have much good to say about 'Til I Die, Tree, Long 
Promise Road or Feel Flows. They were depressing. They were downers. 
They were too ethereal. They were trivial. He accepted the importance 
of Surfs Up in a commercial sense, but derided its artistic merit. He 
hated Burlesque more than anything, particularly because its lyric is 
a about a stripper and even more pointedly because of the last line 
of that lyric. Fascinating, I thought, considering the man's own 
private life, that he was so adamant about family values on Beach 
Boys songs.

Burlesque was Brian at his most passionate, most playful, most 
daring, and it would have made a really cool track on the album. But 
Love killed it.<<<<


Worth noting that the songs from this era which are on many if not most fans'  favorite lists are the songs Mike was critical of.

I believe Jack's version of events. But it stands out as one example of what was happening inside this band at this time when songs which are now regarded as among the best in the band's catalog were being criticized by the guy who offered Student Demonstration Time instead.


Title: Re: Recent thoughts on Jack Rieley by the Beach Boys?
Post by: CenturyDeprived on September 13, 2018, 04:02:12 PM
>>>>Subject: 'Til I Die
From: Jack Rieley
To: Beach Boys list (pet-sounds@lists.primenet.com)
Date: Oct 13 1996 - 9:52am

Mike,

Near the end of recording of the Surfs Up album, in a parking lot off
Sunset Boulevard where Love, Jardine and Johnston requested that I
join them at some awful vegetarian restaurant, following a meal that
they raved about and I detested, after they had complained with
particularly venomous fervor about the brothers Wilson, Love took me
aside, stared furiously at me, curled his lip and snorted nastily,
"Long after you are no longer part of the Beach Boys, I will be
writing songs with Brian, and don't you ever forget that." He stabbed
the air to emphasize "don't", "you", "ever" and "forget." That wasn't
all. I..." he exclaimed, "I AM the Beach Boys!"

Love didn't have much good to say about 'Til I Die, Tree, Long
Promise Road or Feel Flows. They were depressing. They were downers.
They were too ethereal. They were trivial. He accepted the importance
of Surfs Up in a commercial sense, but derided its artistic merit. He
hated Burlesque more than anything, particularly because its lyric is
a about a stripper and even more pointedly because of the last line
of that lyric. Fascinating, I thought, considering the man's own
private life, that he was so adamant about family values on Beach
Boys songs.

Burlesque was Brian at his most passionate, most playful, most
daring, and it would have made a really cool track on the album. But
Love killed it.<<<<


Worth noting that the songs from this era which are on many if not most fans'  favorite lists are the songs Mike was critical of.

I believe Jack's version of events. But it stands out as one example of what was happening inside this band at this time when songs which are now regarded as among the best in the band's catalog were being criticized by the guy who offered Student Demonstration Time instead.


Right. And I want to know why Mike's never talked about his attempt to force a "happy" and "uplifting" lyrical theme on "Til I Die"... and why the (supposedly recorded and existing?) alternate version with those crappy happy Mike lyrics has never been released as a bonus track on any compilation.

Probably because the album version of that song has become regarded as one of THE signature artistic statements in the band's catalog, and actually acknowledging those attempts to change (however well-intended) Brian's vision would not fit in neatly with the narrative that Mike has tried to push over the years.


Title: Re: Recent thoughts on Jack Rieley by the Beach Boys?
Post by: SMiLE Brian on September 13, 2018, 04:06:26 PM
Another, point on how Al has changed for the better. Wasn’t he the champion for deep cuts on the c50 and 1993 tour? Guy raves about 1970s BBS these days...


Title: Re: Recent thoughts on Jack Rieley by the Beach Boys?
Post by: Lee Marshall on September 13, 2018, 06:12:58 PM
I have to admit that I was catching the Beach Boys in TORONTO ['71-'76] where they have always been popular and where Brian remains ever-so.  CHUM FM was playing l.p. tracks from Surf's Up, Carl and the Passions/So Tough and Holland...so the NEW music was getting righteous exposure.  Maybe out in the hinterland shows the folks were clamoring for the oldies but Torontonians were perhaps a tad more sophisticated.  Sorry Jon...but I stand behind my reporting.

Of course by the early 80s I was MC'ing many of the shows I attended.  By then they were under the influence of 'love'.


Title: Re: Recent thoughts on Jack Rieley by the Beach Boys?
Post by: Lee Marshall on September 13, 2018, 06:18:39 PM
Touchy issue...
In defense of Mike-Bruce-Al, they shouldn't be forced to be something that they're not. 

Beach Boys in step with the future?


Title: Re: Recent thoughts on Jack Rieley by the Beach Boys?
Post by: Emdeeh on September 13, 2018, 07:15:21 PM
Another, point on how Al has changed for the better. Wasn’t he the champion for deep cuts on the c50 and 1993 tour? Guy raves about 1970s BBS these days...

Yes, Al was the champion for deep cuts, even back in the '80s. I remember telling him after the 1993 Atlanta show about how much I enjoyed hearing them perform "Vegetables," and he just glowed.

I think Al's opinion of the music was constantly evolving, given what he's said about Dennis' stuff, for example.

In the '70s, he was riding on the "straight" plane with Mike to avoid the smoking and substance use on the "party" plane. (As someone who has an allergy to smoke, I understand not wanting to be exposed to secondhand smoke.) It doesn't mean he was opposed to the newer music.

Jack Reiley had his own prejudices and perceptions of what happened, but I think his accounting of events adds to our knowledge. BTW, all of the Reiley-era shows I saw did have people in the audience calling out for the oldies, even the legendary, incredible 1972 Georgia Tech show when they were touring behind Surf's Up.



Title: Re: Recent thoughts on Jack Rieley by the Beach Boys?
Post by: Custom Machine on September 13, 2018, 07:31:12 PM
Craig! I said your comments were unfortunate because from an historical standpoint they totally minimized the difficulties the BBs in concert frequently experienced during the late sixties and early seventies. You have read David Leaf’s book and Ian and John’s BBs in Concert Book, right? Fortunately c-man and Jon came on board and set the record straight. Jon even added, "I had to actually edit down that element of the book because Ian had gathered so many reviews stating this phenomena that it became redundant."

And rereading this thread I now realize what the issue seems to be for you and a few others - Mike said something in his book along the lines of having scars from promoting new music and/or fending off requests for oldies, and that statement just had to be refuted because Mike can do nothing worthwhile, right? All his lead vocals? They suck, right? The lyrics to The Warmth of the Sun, Please Let Me Wonder, Kiss Me Baby, Good Vibrations, etc, etc? Pure crap, right? OK, I know you’ve never said anything of that nature, but it seems like Mr. Love’s "scars” statement had to be refuted simply because it came from Mike Love.

And for once please don’t take any of this personally, OK? It’s just part of the discussion we’re having here. No need to get bent out of shape when someone offers a different opinion than one you have put forth.

Over the years being a rabid Beach Boys fan has not been an easy task at times, and personally I wish the C50 lineup were still intact. But regardless, I see Brian (now with Al and Blondie) and Mike and Bruce’s Beach Boys whenever I get the opportunity. I love the music and always feel uplifted when attending any BW or BB concert, and I’m sure that will be the case later this month when I see The M&B Beach Boys in concert.

And hey - one more thing! Apparently there are members of this forum who do not attend current Beach Boys concerts, and thus are unaware that for many years now Mike and the band have in fact been performing Mike’s rewritten 1971 lyrics for ’Til I Die, entitled While the Girls Sigh. Here are the lyrics:

While the Girls Sigh

I'm a positive soul man
Floating over a calming sea
I sing about the ocean
Yeah, I sing about the ocean
'Cause I found my way
Hey hey hey

I'm a rock n roll singer
Meditating on the mountainside
Thinking about California girls
Thinking about California girls
It lifts my soul
Hey hey hey

I'm a dude on a happy day
When I sing people are blown away
How long will they listen?
They will listen forever
Ohhhh, Ohhhh, Ohhhh

Just watch me fly
Just watch me fly

These things I'll be while the girls sigh
These things I'll be while the girls sigh
These things I'll be while the girls sigh
While the girls sigh.




Title: Re: Recent thoughts on Jack Rieley by the Beach Boys?
Post by: guitarfool2002 on September 13, 2018, 07:53:46 PM
Craig! I said your comments were unfortunate because from an historical standpoint they totally minimized the difficulties the BBs in concert frequently experienced during the late sixties and early seventies. You have read David Leaf’s book and Ian and John’s BBs in Concert Book, right? Fortunately c-man and Jon came on board and set the record straight. Jon even added, "I had to actually edit down that element of the book because Ian had gathered so many reviews stating this phenomena that it became redundant."

And rereading this thread I now realize what the issue seems to be for you and a few others - Mike said something in his book along the lines of having scars from promoting new music and/or fending off requests for oldies, and that statement just had to be refuted because Mike can do nothing worthwhile, right? All his lead vocals? They suck, right? The lyrics to The Warmth of the Sun, Please Let Me Wonder, Kiss Me Baby, Good Vibrations, etc, etc? Pure crap, right? OK, I know you’ve never said anything of that nature, but it seems like Mr. Love’s "scars” statement had to be refuted simply because it came from Mike Love.

And for once please don’t take any of this personally, OK? It’s just part of the discussion we’re having here. No need to get bent out of shape when someone offers a different opinion than one you have put forth.


No, the issue was discussing Jack Rieley. The issue of the concerts and fan reactions was raised by other posters, who were there too, and did NOT see the level of reactions that others did. I said it was good to get different perspectives on these issues from people who also were there and had different experiences.

I questioned Mike's "scar" thing from the book and asked specifically that someone post the relevant quotes from the book for discussion, so Mike's exact words were listed as we discussed that part of it. I'd like to know what exactly this "scarring" was that Mike reported.

And as I also listed and described other acts over the past 50+ years of rock history getting similar shouts of requests from fans, including the hit record Rick Nelson had which was a reaction to being booed at Madison Square Garden for much the same reasons, I suggested that it was far from exclusive to the Beach Boys...and if you actually read the posts, Jon agreed among others who saw it even further as a non issue but perhaps more relevant to the Beach Boys, again according to some of the replies above.

Dude, if I didn't see what you're doing or trying to do here so often in the past, I'd be bent out of shape. As of right now, I'll stick to what I said and what was said by others including Rieley, whether his criticisms of Mike sit well or not. And continue discussing Rieley, the concerts, and all of the stuff that's actually on topic.

As far as the rest of your comments about Mike's triumphs, I don't know how that has anything to do with what is on the table, but have at it. It's an open forum after all.

If you meet the band backstage, ask Mike if he still thinks he's the Beach Boys 47 years or so after telling that to Rieley.



Title: Re: Recent thoughts on Jack Rieley by the Beach Boys?
Post by: guitarfool2002 on September 13, 2018, 08:02:47 PM
I'd go a step further and ask what to make of Jack Rieley saying Mike was critical of a handful of songs that most fans consider among the best Beach Boys songs of all time, while I just read something earlier about how supportive Mike was of the new material from that time. Explain that one? It's a direct contradiction, unless Mike is parsing words and considering something like Student Demonstration Time as "new material" he supported. I guess Mike forgot those discussions with Rieley? Jack didn't forget.

Because I believe Rieley 100% when he described how Mike was critical of those tunes he listed, and the reasons why as well. It's much the same criticism as Mike had thrown at other songs through the years where he wasn't involved in the writing process and wouldn't get money from them. In other words, par for the course.


Title: Re: Recent thoughts on Jack Rieley by the Beach Boys?
Post by: The LEGENDARY OSD on September 13, 2018, 09:08:30 PM

I'm sitting here in complete disbelief concerning those abysmal, dumb ass cornfed lyrics that Mike Love wrote for "Til I Die". They are an incredible disaster and an affront to Brian's absolute mood inducing moment he shared with the world and his fans. Trite and full of himself as usual, he spoon feeds and lies to the audience about the true meaning of one of Brian's most memorable pieces. Awful, just awful.


Title: Re: Recent thoughts on Jack Rieley by the Beach Boys?
Post by: Lee Marshall on September 13, 2018, 09:25:03 PM

I'm sitting here in complete disbelief concerning those abysmal, dumb ass cornfed lyrics that Mike Love wrote for "Til I Die". They are an incredible disaster and an affront to Brian's absolute mood inducing moment he shared with the world and his fans. Trite and full of himself as usual, he spoon feeds and lies to the audience about the true meaning of one of Brian's most memorable pieces. Awful, just awful.

Yet at the same time and as awful as those lyrics were AND ARE...that 'poetic' disaster is sadly representative of much of Mike's talents and abilities...post 1965.  It's why he was always insistent on returning to Do It Again...'cause he thinks that it's OK to plagiarize yourself in perpetuity.  I've often said that most composers and lyricists only have so many GREAT songs in 'em.  After that?  It becomes more of a coin toss.  The innate ability to venture forward artistically ceases to flow like it once did.  THAT'S what happened to Mike.  He got stuck in a time tunnel.  He has neither the ability nor the talent to dislodge himself.

To have the temerity to even presume to replace Brian's lyrics with that twaddle is the sign of an ego run totally and solidly amuck.  How awfully glad I am that I didn't step in it.  :o


Title: Re: Recent thoughts on Jack Rieley by the Beach Boys?
Post by: Custom Machine on September 13, 2018, 09:39:35 PM

If you meet the band backstage, ask Mike if he still thinks he's the Beach Boys 47 years or so after telling that to Rieley.


Only time I've ever spoken to Mike Love backstage was way back on Dec. 30, 1973, when, after the concert, I hopped the upper railing down to the stage and then to the back stage area, looking for Dennis.

Reason I was looking for Dennis -- After the Nov. 16, 1973 concert my friend Juile and I ran into Dennis in the parking lot while he was attempting to fix two flat tires on Audree Wilson's (or maybe it was Mae Rovell's) Lincoln Continental, (Marilyn, Diane, and a blonde who was probably Ginger were also in the car). Juile had a can of fix-a-flat which Dennis used to inflate the second tire. Anyway, when Dennis was thanking us I told him to tell Mike that he should stop singing Jumping Jack Flash during the encore, because it wasn't a Beach Boys song. I later felt like an idiot when I realized I had failed to thank Dennis for his great contributions to Sunflower and tell him that Forever was (and still is) my all time favorite song.

So back to Dec. 30th, I couldn't find Dennis but ran into Mike. I asked him if he knew where Dennis was and he said he didn't, so I asked Mike to tell Dennis that I would love to hear him sing Forever at their concerts.



Title: Re: Recent thoughts on Jack Rieley by the Beach Boys?
Post by: Custom Machine on September 13, 2018, 09:49:59 PM

I'm sitting here in complete disbelief concerning those abysmal, dumb ass cornfed lyrics that Mike Love wrote for "Til I Die". They are an incredible disaster and an affront to Brian's absolute mood inducing moment he shared with the world and his fans. Trite and full of himself as usual, he spoon feeds and lies to the audience about the true meaning of one of Brian's most memorable pieces. Awful, just awful.


I'm sitting here in complete disbelief concerning those abysmal, dumb ass cornfed lyrics that Mike Love wrote for "Til I Die". They are an incredible disaster and an affront to Brian's absolute mood inducing moment he shared with the world and his fans. Trite and full of himself as usual, he spoon feeds and lies to the audience about the true meaning of one of Brian's most memorable pieces. Awful, just awful.

Yet at the same time and as awful as those lyrics were AND ARE...that 'poetic' disaster is sadly representative of much of Mike's talents and abilities...post 1965.  It's why he was always insistent on returning to Do It Again...'cause he thinks that it's OK to plagiarize yourself in perpetuity.  I've often said that most composers and lyricists only have so many GREAT songs in 'em.  After that?  It becomes more of a coin toss.  The innate ability to venture forward artistically ceases to flow like it once did.  THAT'S what happened to Mike.  He got stuck in a time tunnel.  He has neither the ability nor the talent to dislodge himself.

To have the temerity to even presume to replace Brian's lyrics with that twaddle is the sign of an ego run totally and solidly amuck.  How awfully glad I am that I didn't step in it.  :o



Gentlemen!! OK, I need to stop laughing so I can type this. -- I thought it would be obvious that those lyrics were a satire and that Mike Love was not responsible for writing them, nor have they ever been performed by anyone in concert.




Title: Re: Recent thoughts on Jack Rieley by the Beach Boys?
Post by: B.E. on September 13, 2018, 09:50:59 PM
I would say that Rieley was onto something big. For one, getting the Wilsons in the forefront of the band's original music was *huge* and needed. There was so much they could offer, but as seen in Rieley's comments, there was also some resistance from within the band.

Brian seems anything but in the forefront of the band's music during the Rieley era. I don't blame Jack. I'm sure he would have liked Brian to contribute more, but all Brian really contributed to the cause was ADITLOAT, Funky Pretty, and Mt Vernon (which ironically would have included oldies if Brian had completed his vision). I just find it a little weird when I read about Jack and his support of the Wilsons (which I don't doubt) and then listen to the records and hear less Brian and Dennis.

If you read through Jack's posts at the link above, he addresses some of this specifically. See what he said about Student Demonstration Time making it onto the album and how Carl wanted to sequence it.

Okay, I reread Jack's posts. My position hasn't changed. Jack's recollection of SDT is that of Mike buying in. He also talks of Bruce asking him to write lyrics for 'Disney Girls'. We also know that Al and Mike contributed 'Don't Go Near The Water' (which I didn't notice Jack mention) and that Al's 'Lookin' At Tomorrow' (while pre-dating Jack) aligned with Jack's vision for the group. It sounds like everyone is putting in the effort to cooperate. The only outlier is 'Feet' which I wouldn't be surprised if Brian also wanted released. The fact that they apparently weren't all fans of each others songs is of little importance. What matters is what made it to record and what was performed live. So, I'm more interested in 'Burlesque'. According to Jack's posts that's the only song Mike killed. The only remarks on sequencing I noticed were that Jack and Carl were considering putting "all" of the Wilsons songs on one side but ultimately decided against it. This must have been after Dennis' songs were pulled though, because how could they all have fit? I doubt Brian, Carl, Dennis, and Jack were all in agreement when that went down, which is otherwise how Jack's recollections are framed. It wasn't weird to you how he talked about 'San Miguel'? How Brian, Carl, and Jack "supported" Dennis' decision to can it. Jack seems quite dismissive of the Sunflower-era tunes. Anyway, I still don't hear the Wilsons thrusted into the forefront during the Rieley years. I hear more Carl, less Brian and Dennis, and about the same amount of Mike, Al, and Bruce (until he leaves/is fired). The Wilsons weren't exactly no-shows on prior records. To me, Jack's major influences on the group were on subject matter and live performance.


Title: Re: Recent thoughts on Jack Rieley by the Beach Boys?
Post by: Jay on September 13, 2018, 10:04:53 PM
I have to say that this is one of the most interesting threads this board has had in years.


Title: Re: Recent thoughts on Jack Rieley by the Beach Boys?
Post by: CenturyDeprived on September 13, 2018, 10:11:21 PM

I'm sitting here in complete disbelief concerning those abysmal, dumb ass cornfed lyrics that Mike Love wrote for "Til I Die". They are an incredible disaster and an affront to Brian's absolute mood inducing moment he shared with the world and his fans. Trite and full of himself as usual, he spoon feeds and lies to the audience about the true meaning of one of Brian's most memorable pieces. Awful, just awful.


I'm sitting here in complete disbelief concerning those abysmal, dumb ass cornfed lyrics that Mike Love wrote for "Til I Die". They are an incredible disaster and an affront to Brian's absolute mood inducing moment he shared with the world and his fans. Trite and full of himself as usual, he spoon feeds and lies to the audience about the true meaning of one of Brian's most memorable pieces. Awful, just awful.

Yet at the same time and as awful as those lyrics were AND ARE...that 'poetic' disaster is sadly representative of much of Mike's talents and abilities...post 1965.  It's why he was always insistent on returning to Do It Again...'cause he thinks that it's OK to plagiarize yourself in perpetuity.  I've often said that most composers and lyricists only have so many GREAT songs in 'em.  After that?  It becomes more of a coin toss.  The innate ability to venture forward artistically ceases to flow like it once did.  THAT'S what happened to Mike.  He got stuck in a time tunnel.  He has neither the ability nor the talent to dislodge himself.

To have the temerity to even presume to replace Brian's lyrics with that twaddle is the sign of an ego run totally and solidly amuck.  How awfully glad I am that I didn't step in it.  :o



Gentlemen!! OK, I need to stop laughing so I can type this. -- I thought it would be obvious that those lyrics were a satire and that Mike Love was not responsible for writing them, nor have they ever been performed by anyone in concert.




1. It was satire, and it was legit funny  :lol

2. It's also crazy how Mike has done so many bad, cringy lyrics like these that it wouldn't be *that* much of a stretch for these to have been real.

3. From what I've heard, the actual Mike "uplifting" lyrics for "'Til I Die" are quite lame in terms of sh*tting on Brian's vision, and the actual point of the song - which touches so many people - would've been ruined. Thank GAWD Mike's agenda didn't go through. I would love to know the details of how that went down.

4. If Mike offered in some interview at some point a story about how he tried to steer this song into a more "happy" place, but bravely admitted that he later realized how wrong he was after hearing the masterpiece it turned out to be (not to mention the way the song has touched so many people in its non-altered form), I think many fans would cut Mike some slack (this applies to a lot of other stuff too). This is just the tip of the iceberg of things Mike seemingly wants the public to not know and brush under the rug (so that he can keep up his narrative of denial that he didn't consistently sh*t on his cousin's artistic vision), and it seems to be *just* the type of thing that Jack was keenly aware of during Jack's brief tenure.

Jack. Knew. What. Was. Up. His famous quote has proven him to be the Nostrodamus of The Beach Boys world.


Title: Re: Recent thoughts on Jack Rieley by the Beach Boys?
Post by: Lee Marshall on September 14, 2018, 01:28:40 AM
Gentlemen!! OK, I need to stop laughing so I can type this. -- I thought it would be obvious that those lyrics were a satire and that Mike Love was not responsible for writing them, nor have they ever been performed by anyone in concert.

Oh 'gawd' NO!!!  There's an even worse version out there?  :lol /  :o /  ::)  sh*t!!! :thud


Title: Re: Recent thoughts on Jack Rieley by the Beach Boys?
Post by: CM Punky Brewster on September 14, 2018, 07:50:32 AM

I'm sitting here in complete disbelief concerning those abysmal, dumb ass cornfed lyrics that Mike Love wrote for "Til I Die". They are an incredible disaster and an affront to Brian's absolute mood inducing moment he shared with the world and his fans. Trite and full of himself as usual, he spoon feeds and lies to the audience about the true meaning of one of Brian's most memorable pieces. Awful, just awful.


I'm sitting here in complete disbelief concerning those abysmal, dumb ass cornfed lyrics that Mike Love wrote for "Til I Die". They are an incredible disaster and an affront to Brian's absolute mood inducing moment he shared with the world and his fans. Trite and full of himself as usual, he spoon feeds and lies to the audience about the true meaning of one of Brian's most memorable pieces. Awful, just awful.

Yet at the same time and as awful as those lyrics were AND ARE...that 'poetic' disaster is sadly representative of much of Mike's talents and abilities...post 1965.  It's why he was always insistent on returning to Do It Again...'cause he thinks that it's OK to plagiarize yourself in perpetuity.  I've often said that most composers and lyricists only have so many GREAT songs in 'em.  After that?  It becomes more of a coin toss.  The innate ability to venture forward artistically ceases to flow like it once did.  THAT'S what happened to Mike.  He got stuck in a time tunnel.  He has neither the ability nor the talent to dislodge himself.

To have the temerity to even presume to replace Brian's lyrics with that twaddle is the sign of an ego run totally and solidly amuck.  How awfully glad I am that I didn't step in it.  :o



Gentlemen!! OK, I need to stop laughing so I can type this. -- I thought it would be obvious that those lyrics were a satire and that Mike Love was not responsible for writing them, nor have they ever been performed by anyone in concert.




Is that a challenge? I think covering Til I Die with those lyrics would be a hoot, actually.


Title: Re: Recent thoughts on Jack Rieley by the Beach Boys?
Post by: SMiLE Brian on September 14, 2018, 08:52:40 AM
New Surfsiders style? ;)


Title: Re: Recent thoughts on Jack Rieley by the Beach Boys?
Post by: Jay on September 14, 2018, 09:07:22 AM
Billy has to make it for the next Fear2Stop album.  ;D He has to listen to me, because I'm his manager.  ;)


Title: Re: Recent thoughts on Jack Rieley by the Beach Boys?
Post by: guitarfool2002 on September 14, 2018, 09:14:33 AM
I would say that Rieley was onto something big. For one, getting the Wilsons in the forefront of the band's original music was *huge* and needed. There was so much they could offer, but as seen in Rieley's comments, there was also some resistance from within the band.

Brian seems anything but in the forefront of the band's music during the Rieley era. I don't blame Jack. I'm sure he would have liked Brian to contribute more, but all Brian really contributed to the cause was ADITLOAT, Funky Pretty, and Mt Vernon (which ironically would have included oldies if Brian had completed his vision). I just find it a little weird when I read about Jack and his support of the Wilsons (which I don't doubt) and then listen to the records and hear less Brian and Dennis.

If you read through Jack's posts at the link above, he addresses some of this specifically. See what he said about Student Demonstration Time making it onto the album and how Carl wanted to sequence it.

Okay, I reread Jack's posts. My position hasn't changed. Jack's recollection of SDT is that of Mike buying in. He also talks of Bruce asking him to write lyrics for 'Disney Girls'. We also know that Al and Mike contributed 'Don't Go Near The Water' (which I didn't notice Jack mention) and that Al's 'Lookin' At Tomorrow' (while pre-dating Jack) aligned with Jack's vision for the group. It sounds like everyone is putting in the effort to cooperate. The only outlier is 'Feet' which I wouldn't be surprised if Brian also wanted released. The fact that they apparently weren't all fans of each others songs is of little importance. What matters is what made it to record and what was performed live. So, I'm more interested in 'Burlesque'. According to Jack's posts that's the only song Mike killed. The only remarks on sequencing I noticed were that Jack and Carl were considering putting "all" of the Wilsons songs on one side but ultimately decided against it. This must have been after Dennis' songs were pulled though, because how could they all have fit? I doubt Brian, Carl, Dennis, and Jack were all in agreement when that went down, which is otherwise how Jack's recollections are framed. It wasn't weird to you how he talked about 'San Miguel'? How Brian, Carl, and Jack "supported" Dennis' decision to can it. Jack seems quite dismissive of the Sunflower-era tunes. Anyway, I still don't hear the Wilsons thrusted into the forefront during the Rieley years. I hear more Carl, less Brian and Dennis, and about the same amount of Mike, Al, and Bruce (until he leaves/is fired). The Wilsons weren't exactly no-shows on prior records. To me, Jack's major influences on the group were on subject matter and live performance.


Some key points in Jack's comments are how he wanted to get Carl writing more, and in general get more material flowing from Carl and Dennis. It basically reads between the lines that Brian was obviously not 100% into it and his contributions would be what they were, I don't think there was an expectation that Brian would be writing like it was 1965 again, or anything close. But that element of getting Carl and Dennis contributing more was the element which Jack wanted to push even more, getting original material flowing from the Wilson brothers. He saw there was something there with Carl that wasn't being tapped into, obviously people heard what Dennis could do but maybe the thought was let's get more from him, and if Brian got the inspiration or wanted to lay down some ideas to start something, let's tap into that.

It's also telling to hear what material and ideas the Mike-Al-Bruce side were offering, and how those tunes were not what Jack acting in his capacity thought would be moving the band forward into the kind of band he and obviously several Wilsons thought the band could be.

The politics and infighting are another aspect which did affect the process, how could it not? One of Jack's better moves was to get Carl some more "official" leadership status for the group, particularly the live band, even though he had been acting as leader on stage for years. That was big, as was trying to get Carl's writing to develop. But again based on comments, when you had Mike-Bruce-Al talking sh*t about their bandmates and having what I'm sure were some pretty heated meetings, some of this potential was being squashed instead of encouraged. I think that's why both Carl and Dennis were happy to have someone on their side like Jack.

And Carl, musically acting as "leader"? It's a no-brainer. He was already doing it - Because I'd say he was the most qualified and already had experience. But maybe he needed support from a manager type like Jack in light of Mike's comments to Jack that *he* was the Beach Boys.

All of that inner politics BS has implications on everything. When you have Mike declaring he is the Beach Boys, you can see where the bad vibes would come in. It was good Jack got Carl, Dennis, and Brian to have more of a voice in the process, specifically Carl and Dennis to get writing more for the group.

But it takes time to get the plan rolling, again as mentioned it didn't (and doesn't) happen overnight and some of us think the lost potential when the whole thing got cut short was one of the sad parts of the story.


Title: Re: Recent thoughts on Jack Rieley by the Beach Boys?
Post by: the captain on September 14, 2018, 09:27:26 AM

Some key points in Jack's comments are how he wanted to get Carl writing more, and in general get more material flowing from Carl and Dennis. It basically reads between the lines that Brian was obviously not 100% into it and his contributions would be what they were, I don't think there was an expectation that Brian would be writing like it was 1965 again, or anything close. But that element of getting Carl and Dennis contributing more was the element which Jack wanted to push even more, getting original material flowing from the Wilson brothers. He saw there was something there with Carl that wasn't being tapped into, obviously people heard what Dennis could do but maybe the thought was let's get more from him, and if Brian got the inspiration or wanted to lay down some ideas to start something, let's tap into that.


I hate to agree with gf2002 again--I've got a reputation to uphold (kidding!)--but this is spot on. I don't think you could fault Rieley for not upping Brian's participation because everyone, before and after him wanted to up Brian's participation. But Brian was going to offer what he could or would, and that's all.

As for the volume of Carl's and Dennis's input, it's not just the number of songs but maybe their prominence. Carl suddenly wasn't just one of four named co-writers, but the sole Beach Boy (with Rieley on lyrics) for prominent, different kinds of music, songs that I'd imagine were seen as centerpieces of sorts at the time, even if not singles. Dennis, well, yes, he wasn't represented on Surf's Up, but that's not on Rieley, it's on Dennis.

The "siding with Wilsons" strategy wasn't just about song counts, but about image, vibe, general direction. At least that's how I read it (and hear it).

It's a shame that Al was seen as so firmly in the Love camp in those days, because I think musically he fit right in with what the Wilsons were doing at times. His folk music especially fit in, and his quirky sense of humor I think also worked with Brian, which is why things like Feet and Loop de Loop might not have floated Rieley's boat, but Brian seems to have dug them. (Obviously musically he was also just essential, vocally speaking, I mean.) I understand that if he was sober, being around the Wilsons in the early 70s wouldn't have been an appealing situation. But if only he would have gotten through that (or maybe if they'd have held their sh*t together a bit more, which would have been a healthy thing regardless), the real core of the band could theoretically have withstood any kind of Love or Johnston (before he left) pressures.


Title: Re: Recent thoughts on Jack Rieley by the Beach Boys?
Post by: guitarfool2002 on September 14, 2018, 11:04:44 AM

Some key points in Jack's comments are how he wanted to get Carl writing more, and in general get more material flowing from Carl and Dennis. It basically reads between the lines that Brian was obviously not 100% into it and his contributions would be what they were, I don't think there was an expectation that Brian would be writing like it was 1965 again, or anything close. But that element of getting Carl and Dennis contributing more was the element which Jack wanted to push even more, getting original material flowing from the Wilson brothers. He saw there was something there with Carl that wasn't being tapped into, obviously people heard what Dennis could do but maybe the thought was let's get more from him, and if Brian got the inspiration or wanted to lay down some ideas to start something, let's tap into that.


I hate to agree with gf2002 again--I've got a reputation to uphold (kidding!)--but this is spot on. I don't think you could fault Rieley for not upping Brian's participation because everyone, before and after him wanted to up Brian's participation. But Brian was going to offer what he could or would, and that's all.

As for the volume of Carl's and Dennis's input, it's not just the number of songs but maybe their prominence. Carl suddenly wasn't just one of four named co-writers, but the sole Beach Boy (with Rieley on lyrics) for prominent, different kinds of music, songs that I'd imagine were seen as centerpieces of sorts at the time, even if not singles. Dennis, well, yes, he wasn't represented on Surf's Up, but that's not on Rieley, it's on Dennis.

The "siding with Wilsons" strategy wasn't just about song counts, but about image, vibe, general direction. At least that's how I read it (and hear it).

It's a shame that Al was seen as so firmly in the Love camp in those days, because I think musically he fit right in with what the Wilsons were doing at times. His folk music especially fit in, and his quirky sense of humor I think also worked with Brian, which is why things like Feet and Loop de Loop might not have floated Rieley's boat, but Brian seems to have dug them. (Obviously musically he was also just essential, vocally speaking, I mean.) I understand that if he was sober, being around the Wilsons in the early 70s wouldn't have been an appealing situation. But if only he would have gotten through that (or maybe if they'd have held their sh*t together a bit more, which would have been a healthy thing regardless), the real core of the band could theoretically have withstood any kind of Love or Johnston (before he left) pressures.


Focusing on the drugs in terms of both "sides" may be a factor, but it's one and perhaps a smaller one out of several. Yes, it was a factor with Al. But at the same time, there was a big power grab underlying everything with this band from the music, to finance, to management. That power struggle played out perhaps most obviously in the 1970's, but I'd go as far as to suggest it was the main issue hung like an albatross around the collective band's neck for the next decades to come, up to the present.

I'm just speculating that Al could have felt caught in the middle. If his objections to the Wilson brothers' lifestyles were strong enough, that could be a factor. But Al had to make a choice on where to place his vote or loyalty, so to speak, and he put it with Mike. Was he 100% behind what Mike was doing in terms of the organization in the Rieley era? Who knows. But he chose sides.

What is staring all of us in the face is how the rest of the 70's played out after Rieley's departure. Look who ended up taking over control of the band, in terms of business, management, etc. Mike Love's brothers. Look who was assigned to get Brian healthy before Landy part 1 - Mike's brothers and Rocky. Look who was making the decisions, especially with marketing the band - Mike's brothers. "Brian's Back" - Mike's brother's plan.

There is a pattern here if you look through the facts. You have Mike telling Rieley "I am the Beach Boys". Take that as a main idea of this. Then look at the way managers and bandmates were handled throughout the 70's. Nick Grillo was fired and accused of wrongdoing. Rieley was shown the door and accused of wrongdoing. Mike's own brother was fired and brought up on charges of wrongdoing. To the best of my knowledge, none of these charges which were fuel to get rid of these people were ever proven. In the case of Mike's brother, the charges were dismissed by a court and he was exonerated of the charges. Rieley said he brought legal action against NME for a report they published about him, and according to Jack, that was retracted with a penalty.

Then there is Al - Look what happened to him in the late 80's, early 90's. Al was vocally opposing Mike's direction for the stage act among other things, and Mike essentially shitcanned him. Dennis at one point in the 70's was shown the door. At one of the band's lowest points, Carl went off to do his own solo project and play shows.

Look for the common thread in so much of this, and yes up to even C50, and you'll see there has been a power play if not outright power grab going on for decades in terms of who is in control of the band. It felt in the 70's that when Mike felt his status diminishing a bit in terms of power, in the corporate sense, he got his brothers installed as the leadership of the band. That's pure corporate power-grab, right there.

The reason why Rieley irks people who are more in Mike's camp to this day is that Rieley got the Wilsons together and got them, specifically Carl, the clout within the organization to say "no" to Mike. And they did. Which according to Jack is how Bruce exited. The vote was then 3 (Wilsons) versus 2 (Love-Jardine). The Wilsons had more say in the direction of the band, ostensibly.

But as soon as Mike's brothers were put in place, there was the power pendulum swinging again in Mike's direction. Let no one be misled that there was a reason for bringing in Landy that wasn't involving getting Brian "healthy" enough to contribute songs to the band. And to be in place for label and financial reasons, no matter his interest or actual involvement. It turned into a truly bizarre situation where there was a hired goon standing behind Brian at his piano holding a baseball bat to "inspire" Brian to churn out new songs. Where did this come from? Just look at what was on the table.

So Al chose sides, and the side he chose ended up getting him fired from his own band 20 years or so later.

We can talk about the music, but consider the corporate power struggle and power grabs that were happening behind the scenes as everything else was happening publicly, and it helps give a perspective on what was really going on. For any of Jack Rieley's flaws and foibles, the guy didn't stand a chance as soon as he tried to move the Wilsons into a position of greater power and control within the organization. What happened in subsequent years bears that out.


Title: Re: Recent thoughts on Jack Rieley by the Beach Boys?
Post by: the captain on September 14, 2018, 11:12:51 AM
Oh great, you quoted me to immortalize my typo. Thanks a lot.  ;D


Title: Re: Recent thoughts on Jack Rieley by the Beach Boys?
Post by: guitarfool2002 on September 14, 2018, 11:27:34 AM
Oh great, you quoted me to immortalize my typo. Thanks a lot.  ;D

 :lol

I fixed it.  ;)

I want to add to that last post how I didn't deliberately leave out James Guercio, in terms of the 70's history of the BB's. It was more to cover than I had time at the moment.

But I will say there is a revealing interview with Dennis from 1976 available here: http://justbackdated.blogspot.com/2014/12/the-beach-boys-dennis-wilson-interview.html (http://justbackdated.blogspot.com/2014/12/the-beach-boys-dennis-wilson-interview.html)

...where Dennis talks about the band's heavy touring *before* Endless Summer contributing to what would be a resurgence of sorts. It was, I'd suggest, Jack's plan playing out where the band would play really solid shows and build (or rebuild) an audience as a result. And at least according to Dennis in '76, that's what played out. The live shows were drawing more and more people, they were playing damn fine live shows, and the buzz kept building.

I just wanted to mention Guercio because he did for a time take over in whatever capacity we want to call it, and it did help the band's status and success. I did not mean to leave that out purposely. However, the power struggles were still going on and the Love family had quite a large stake in the game.


Title: Re: Recent thoughts on Jack Rieley by the Beach Boys?
Post by: ♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇 on September 14, 2018, 12:37:02 PM
Billy has to make it for the next Fear2Stop album.  ;D He has to listen to me, because I'm his manager.  ;)

:lol


Title: Re: Recent thoughts on Jack Rieley by the Beach Boys?
Post by: CM Punky Brewster on September 14, 2018, 01:03:50 PM
As far as Lee’s and OSD’s recollections of the shows from the period vs. the recollections of Custom Machine and others, isn’t it possible that the Boys’ then-current music went over better in markets where there was exposure for their recent music? If 8 remember an older OSD post, I seem to recall him telling a great story about being at the comeback show at Carnegie Hall. Remember that Pete Fornatale was a champion of The Beach Boys who continued to play their music on FM radio. Maybe the NYC audience had a better idea of what to expect from the 1971 Beach Boys than audiences in other towns where they didn’t get FM airplay.


Title: Re: Recent thoughts on Jack Rieley by the Beach Boys?
Post by: the captain on September 14, 2018, 01:12:24 PM
Not only does that seem possible, but very plausible.


Title: Re: Recent thoughts on Jack Rieley by the Beach Boys?
Post by: SMiLE Brian on September 14, 2018, 01:33:52 PM
Billy has to make it for the next Fear2Stop album.  ;D He has to listen to me, because I'm his manager.  ;)

:lol
B-side will be "long tall texan" with Billy yodeling! ;)


Title: Re: Recent thoughts on Jack Rieley by the Beach Boys?
Post by: The LEGENDARY OSD on September 14, 2018, 02:34:40 PM
New Surfsiders style? ;)

 :lol :lol :lol and shredded of course.  ;D


Title: Re: Recent thoughts on Jack Rieley by the Beach Boys?
Post by: clack on September 14, 2018, 03:35:25 PM
Rieley, to all intents and purposes, quit as manager when he moved to the Netherlands. Trying to run the band long distance from Amsterdam was always an untenable proposition.

Carl functionally quit as the band's producer. After 'Holland', he -- apparently willingly -- left the producing duties in the hands of Brian, Al, or Bruce. In the 2 years between 'Surf's Up' and 'Holland' Carl wrote one song, and there would be another 6 years after that before another Carl song appeared on record. Carl, post-Holland, could have maintained creative leadership of the band (at least in Brian's absence), but for some reason he shied away from the responsibility.

Dennis was Dennis. A talented though erratic screw-up.

None of these situations were because of Mike's ego, or because Mike was making a power play.


Title: Re: Recent thoughts on Jack Rieley by the Beach Boys?
Post by: CenturyDeprived on September 14, 2018, 03:43:16 PM
Rieley, to all intents and purposes, quit as manager when he moved to the Netherlands. Trying to run the band long distance from Amsterdam was always an untenable proposition.

Carl functionally quit as the band's producer. After 'Holland', he -- apparently willingly -- left the producing duties in the hands of Brian, Al, or Bruce. In the 2 years between 'Surf's Up' and 'Holland' Carl wrote one song, and there would be another 6 years after that before another Carl song appeared on record. Carl, post-Holland, could have maintained creative leadership of the band (at least in Brian's absence), but for some reason he shied away from the responsibility.

Dennis was Dennis. A talented though erratic screw-up.

None of these situations were because of Mike's ego, or because Mike was making a power play.

When you say "Carl wrote one song" during a time period, how do you know this? How do we know there weren't more songs he wrote but didn't release, due to any number of reasons which *could* include wanting to avoid band politics? (Not saying I know this for sure either, but I don't believe you have any sort of info to back up your theory which seems to be stated as fact).

With regards to implying that Mike's ego/power play caused nobody to throw in the towel or reduce their goals creatively: it cannot be properly quantified how much a band member who is potentially doing all sorts of ego-driven passive aggressive stuff could potentially cause their bandmates/manager to quash creative goals/desires in order to avoid conflict, especially if those bandmates were children of abuse (who perhaps didn't know how to communicate in the most direct of ways).  Logic would point to a yes answer, with some nuance and certainly lots of unknowns. To assume the answer is "obviously" and outright "no" would probably be a statement that no person would make who had ever themselves been in a band with a narcissistic bandmate who would stop at nothing to attain their eventual goal of full control of the band.

Anybody who says "I am The Beach Boys" - especially at that point in time where other members were creatively flowering in the band, and contributing greatly - is clearly coming from a narcissistic and toxic mindset, and I'd like to know how that was a perfectly benign statement for Mike to have made? That seems to be your implication.

Someone who'd have made such a statement at such a point in time would not exactly have caused people who disagreed (like Rieley) to *want* to stick around, nor would bandmates want to continuously deal with conflict with such a man-child, because they'd have been in for a fight, either a longterm passive aggressive campaign (Mike from the mid '70s to today), or some direct confrontational sh*t (tarmac incident).

Yes there's lots of nuance involved, yes, things aren't all Mike's fault, but his ego and power play nonsense were absolutely some big contributing factors to all sorts of creative decay and assorted awfulness. It's interesting how people are very quick to understand/accept the idea that perhaps Brian's substance abuse was probably exacerbated by wanting to self-medicate from dealing with Murry, and Denny's was probably exacerbated by wanting to self-medicate from dealing with Murry and the Manson fallout, but it's somehow impossible for some people to think that Mike's longterm behavior - which involved quashing those guys' creative/emotional outlets in some fashion, however unintended that may have been - could have also contributed. Not quite sure how that logic works. Hell, if I was a bandmate with Mike (and related to him too), I'd probably also self-medicate! Bottom line is that Mike's ego was and will always be a problem with regards to this band in ways that are unquantifiable.


Title: Re: Recent thoughts on Jack Rieley by the Beach Boys?
Post by: guitarfool2002 on September 14, 2018, 03:55:17 PM
As far as Lee’s and OSD’s recollections of the shows from the period vs. the recollections of Custom Machine and others, isn’t it possible that the Boys’ then-current music went over better in markets where there was exposure for their recent music? If 8 remember an older OSD post, I seem to recall him telling a great story about being at the comeback show at Carnegie Hall. Remember that Pete Fornatale was a champion of The Beach Boys who continued to play their music on FM radio. Maybe the NYC audience had a better idea of what to expect from the 1971 Beach Boys than audiences in other towns where they didn’t get FM airplay.

Not only does that seem possible, but very plausible.




I understand and respect what you're saying Jon, as you literally wrote the book on the subject - and I'm not trying to counter or minimize what you say either. It was just surprising to hear what other fans who attended these shows at this time had to say about their own experiences, and recollections about the crowd behaviors which were not as blatant as I think some have suggested. I also think there were regional sensibilities at play, where perhaps some areas the band played had more receptive and respectful crowds overall than others. But the recollections do add a wider perspective to the topic, as in people relating that what they experienced was not what others experienced.




Yes - That is what I also said and suggested in my reply to Jon's post. In bold. Suggesting that there were regional sensibilities at play in the level of crowd reactions. The popularity of bands, singles, and music in general could change dramatically based on the region and market, and this was a factor in rock music from the 50's until perhaps the late 80's or so. The Beach Boys had top 5 hits in certain markets while in others the records basically stalled or didn't make a dent on the charts. Sometimes history records those records as failures because of national chart performance, while in some markets a certain station or DJ/personality would spin the same record into a top 5 hit.

Same with concerts.

I'm just saying this for the record, again addressing the "unfortunate" tag my earlier posts received where clearly my posts were not read or something. Anyway, back to the discussion.


Title: Re: Recent thoughts on Jack Rieley by the Beach Boys?
Post by: the captain on September 14, 2018, 04:08:34 PM
Rieley, to all intents and purposes, quit as manager when he moved to the Netherlands. Trying to run the band long distance from Amsterdam was always an untenable proposition.

Carl functionally quit as the band's producer. After 'Holland', he -- apparently willingly -- left the producing duties in the hands of Brian, Al, or Bruce. In the 2 years between 'Surf's Up' and 'Holland' Carl wrote one song, and there would be another 6 years after that before another Carl song appeared on record. Carl, post-Holland, could have maintained creative leadership of the band (at least in Brian's absence), but for some reason he shied away from the responsibility.

Dennis was Dennis. A talented though erratic screw-up.

None of these situations were because of Mike's ego, or because Mike was making a power play.

It's entirely possible that all of those situations were at least in part because of Mike's ego and/or power play. One's desire to manage a band could be influenced by one or more members of that band being difficult to work with. One's desire to produce and submit songs to a band could be influenced by one or more members of his band being difficult to work with. One's essence as a talented though erratic screw-up could be (negatively) influenced by one or more members of his band being difficult to work with.

A more functional relationship might have led Rieley to a different decision; Carl to a different level of confidence or willingness to participate and even lead; and Dennis to hold his sh*t together and more fully participate in the band as a dependable member.

As long as we're speculating, let's at least speculate from all reasonably believable perspectives.


Title: Re: Recent thoughts on Jack Rieley by the Beach Boys?
Post by: guitarfool2002 on September 14, 2018, 04:13:03 PM
Rieley, to all intents and purposes, quit as manager when he moved to the Netherlands. Trying to run the band long distance from Amsterdam was always an untenable proposition.

Carl functionally quit as the band's producer. After 'Holland', he -- apparently willingly -- left the producing duties in the hands of Brian, Al, or Bruce. In the 2 years between 'Surf's Up' and 'Holland' Carl wrote one song, and there would be another 6 years after that before another Carl song appeared on record. Carl, post-Holland, could have maintained creative leadership of the band (at least in Brian's absence), but for some reason he shied away from the responsibility.

Dennis was Dennis. A talented though erratic screw-up.

None of these situations were because of Mike's ego, or because Mike was making a power play.

When you say "Carl wrote one song" during a time period, how do you know this? How do we know there weren't more songs he wrote but didn't release, due to any number of reasons which *could* include wanting to avoid band politics? (Not saying I know this for sure either, but I don't believe you have any sort of info to back up your theory which seems to be stated as fact).

With regards to implying that Mike's ego/power play caused nobody to throw in the towel or reduce their goals creatively: it cannot be properly quantified how much a band member who is potentially doing all sorts of ego-driven passive aggressive stuff could potentially cause their bandmates/manager to quash creative goals/desires in order to avoid conflict, especially if those bandmates were children of abuse (who perhaps didn't know how to communicate in the most direct of ways).  Logic would point to a yes answer, with some nuance and certainly lots of unknowns. To assume the answer is "obviously" and outright "no" would probably be a statement that no person would make who had ever themselves been in a band with a narcissistic bandmate who would stop at nothing to attain their eventual goal of full control of the band.

Anybody who says "I am The Beach Boys" - especially at that point in time where other members were creatively flowering in the band, and contributing greatly - is clearly coming from a narcissistic and toxic mindset, and I'd like to know how that was a perfectly benign statement for Mike to have made? That seems to be your implication.

Someone who'd have made such a statement at such a point in time would not exactly have caused people who disagreed (like Rieley) to *want* to stick around, nor would bandmates want to continuously deal with conflict with such a man-child, because they'd have been in for a fight, either a longterm passive aggressive campaign (Mike from the mid '70s to today), or some direct confrontational sh*t (tarmac incident).

Good post and thoughts, CD. As you said, if you have a band member who wrote in his book how much of a "team player" he was thanks to his days running track in high school, and building up teammates instead of knocking them down, then you hear of that same "teammate" declaring "I AM the Beach Boys" in 1971...that's a setup for conflict and confrontation. And look at how history played out.


Addressing the issue of Carl's lack or writing and production duties after Rieley left...Jack addressed this in this reply:

>>>>Subject: RE: thoughts on what Jack R. said....
From: Jack Rieley
To: Beach Boys list (pet-sounds@lists.primenet.com)
Date: Oct 6 1996 - 4:44pm

okay, on to your comments/questions...

you wish someone would do today what i did and change things for
them. kewl. i haven't a clue what they are currently doing on stage.
i dropped the string-o-hits bullshit in favor of a 2-hour concert
that included the then-current songs, stretched-out lesser-known
jewels, etc. in that period i had them save the surfing schtick for
the encores.

You ask...

> I'm curious - I don't know much about your involvement with the
> BB's (except that you were, what, a manager, for them in the early
> 70'?), but I know that some of their most-respected work
> (Sunflower, Surf's Up, Holland) were created while you were
> around.... Have they asked you, ever, to come back...? Why did you
> leave, or were you asked to leave? (Okay, all, now I'm showing my
> ignorance...).

My only involvement with Sunflower was as a consumer. Pleased you
like Surf's Up and Holland. I tried to leave the group when Holland
was finished, because I chose not to return to the U.S. -- wanted
instead to live in The Netherlands. They insisted I should run things
from Amsterdam, a ridiculous pseudo-solution because of the distance
involved and the day-to-day need for up-close interaction with BW, CW
and DW. When Carl ran into domestic tumult and I wasn't around, he
felt let down. I did return on several quick occasions at the request
of Brian, Carl and Dennis. Also came back to help the family upon
Murry's death (wow, that was a weird week). Eventually it became
clear to them that I had lost interest in being zookeeper.

You asked as well why I have gave interviews for the books about the
group. It was partly because of an overdose of confidentiality I felt
toward them for a long, long time. Living in Europe, as I did until 2
years ago, also gave me a healthy dose of disdain for the
breathless-supermarket-style of writing that passes as research and
journalism here. From what I have been told, the true story of Brian,
Carl and Dennis Wilson and those other guys has certainly not been
written yet.

- Jack<<<<



It seems Carl was having issues, in Jack's term "domestic tumult", which may have been an issue in why he didn't get his songs out there - Not saying he didn't write altogether. The Wilsons asked Jack to come back, which he did a few times. Fill in the spaces on what was going on in those cases, apart from when Murry died, and factor whatever those issues were into the mix. But they wouldn't have called Jack to return if it wasn't something bigger than a normal problem popping up.

Beyond that into speculation...Jack encouraged Carl to write. He wanted Carl to pursue what Jack thought was an untapped talent and resource for the band. Jack had Carl's back in that regard, and perhaps as an "outsider" Jack's encouragement was enough to inspire Carl and give him confidence to express himself in original music.

Keep in mind...Brian Wilson needed and fed off of that exact same encouragement. He needed people to react to what he was writing, he loved getting smiles and good feedback in return, and it inspired him to push and write more. That's fact...all eras of BW composition, he fed off of positive reactions and encouragement.

Dennis did as well. He liked to get reactions to his music, and especially when it made people happy.

What I'm suggesting is perhaps without Jack, Carl's encouragement wasn't there and he was stuck in the period when other factors (some concerning the name Love) came into the power structure, and in a few years after Rieley's departure all attention turned to trying to get *Brian* to write again, in sufficient enough numbers of songs for the band's albums. Maybe Carl felt he lost his biggest supporter and collaborator, and with Mike and his brothers in the mix, plus attention on "Brian's Back", Carl said screw it...I'll go back to taking care of the live stuff. Let them write for the band.




Title: Re: Recent thoughts on Jack Rieley by the Beach Boys?
Post by: tpesky on September 14, 2018, 04:44:59 PM
I personally don’t take Jacks word as gospel . Just because he said Mike said something doesn’t mean it happened that way . Jack always had a penchant for exaggerating beginning with his resume. Jack did a lot of good things for the BB but as a manager he exaggerated the divisions too making them worse .  Bruce and Jack never got along and Jack makes Bruce out to be way more involved in leading the band because it fits his narrative . He isn’t quite on the level of sainthood . He was writing those posts 23 years after leaving the band even the best memories fail after that long especially for specifics .


Title: Re: Recent thoughts on Jack Rieley by the Beach Boys?
Post by: guitarfool2002 on September 14, 2018, 04:45:37 PM
Revisiting the earlier comments about the Wilsons being pushed more to the fore during the Rieley era, and questions if that were the case, just look at the writing credits on Surf's Up-Carl And The Passions-Holland. Mike is listed as co-writer on 7 tracks across those three albums. One of those was a lyrical rewrite of Leiber and Stoller. They were spreading out the writing duties and it shows just by reading the credits and noting who was writing the tunes during this time.


What I'm also seeing is that under Jack's plans and management, in the US market the band managed to score a top 30 album (SU), a top 40 album (Holland) and a top 50 album (CATP) in succession. Higher charting performances in the UK. This was a band who didn't hit the charts that high with an album since 1967. Jack also got them back on the radio. Not major #1 hits, but again better than they had done for several years. The live shows were rebuilding an audience and building new ones for the band. Read Dennis' comments, in 1976 they back up what Jack said about the touring building the foundation in his 90's posts to the mailing list.

In other words what Jack was doing was working, or it worked. You can't rebuild something overnight. But they were working hard at it and actually making the plans work.

Some of the revisionism comes in where Endless Summer is concerned, so far as where that concept started and who started it, thus who takes credit for it. Ultimately the band's old label wanted to do Greatest Hits part 3 to sell records, and couldn't even be bothered to find the right masters to press the albums. But it worked, like a fluke. People bought music from the previous decade because they liked it and it sounded fucking great to their ears. And the country was on a nostalgia kick, thanks also in part to George Lucas who prominently used several BB's classics which turned up on Endless Summer in his blockbuster American Graffitti.

As was said, 15BO sort of ended the deal as we know it. "Brian's Back" and eventually Landy and the Loves were key players in the game. But anyone trying to diminish Rieley's efforts or successes when his plans were taking hold and actually working...I'd suggest rereading some of the history and facts and seeing how and where Jack did positive, successful things for a band who was running on fumes and couldn't buy respect or sales in the US just prior to Jack coming on board.

Jack changed the direction of the band and built up what the band would comfortably ride on for the next few years, for that he deserves credit.



Title: Re: Recent thoughts on Jack Rieley by the Beach Boys?
Post by: guitarfool2002 on September 14, 2018, 04:49:45 PM
I personally don’t take Jacks word as gospel . Just because he said Mike said something doesn’t mean it happened that way . Jack always had a penchant for exaggerating beginning with his resume. Jack did a lot of good things for the BB but as a manager he exaggerated the divisions too making them worse .  Bruce and Jack never got along and Jack makes Bruce out to be way more involved in leading the band because it fits his narrative . He isn’t quite on the level of sainthood . He was writing those posts 23 years after leaving the band even the best memories fail after that long especially for specifics .

Would it be "bashing" if I or others similarly said we don't take Mike's word as gospel, because Mike had a similar penchant for exaggerating things to suit his own narrative or needs?

It's good to get all perspectives. In this case, Jack Rieley was there and reported what he saw and did. If exaggerating things is a standard to use to dismiss or diminish what he said, I'd say such a standard could and should be applied to things Mike has said as well.


Title: Re: Recent thoughts on Jack Rieley by the Beach Boys?
Post by: tpesky on September 14, 2018, 04:56:54 PM
Oh 100 percent Mike has exaggerated and still does ,no doubt. I am not defensing Mikes actions by any means


Title: Re: Recent thoughts on Jack Rieley by the Beach Boys?
Post by: ♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇 on September 14, 2018, 05:02:02 PM
Billy has to make it for the next Fear2Stop album.  ;D He has to listen to me, because I'm his manager.  ;)

:lol
B-side will be "long tall texan" with Billy yodeling! ;)


Actually I may do that anyway just to be funny


Title: Re: Recent thoughts on Jack Rieley by the Beach Boys?
Post by: The LEGENDARY OSD on September 14, 2018, 06:47:19 PM
As far as Lee’s and OSD’s recollections of the shows from the period vs. the recollections of Custom Machine and others, isn’t it possible that the Boys’ then-current music went over better in markets where there was exposure for their recent music? If 8 remember an older OSD post, I seem to recall him telling a great story about being at the comeback show at Carnegie Hall. Remember that Pete Fornatale was a champion of The Beach Boys who continued to play their music on FM radio. Maybe the NYC audience had a better idea of what to expect from the 1971 Beach Boys than audiences in other towns where they didn’t get FM airplay.

Exactly, PB. Surf's Up and, yes, Sunflower had decent exposure on FM progressive radio. WMMR in Philly loved them. The jocks were music junkies and understood the importance of the band, especially Ed Sciaky (rip). Ed was a friend who made sure I got to see the boys (among other groups) whenever they were in town and actually got to even party with them a few times. Man, what a great time to be alive. The 1971 Carnegie appearance was otherworldly in it's appreciation of the band. Very few, if any catcalls, thunderous applause for the new material as well as the old. With the combination of the FM stations up and down the east coast playing their newer material and their well rehearsed shows, they could do no wrong with the exception of letting Jack eventually slip away. ::)


Title: Re: Recent thoughts on Jack Rieley by the Beach Boys?
Post by: guitarfool2002 on September 14, 2018, 07:49:00 PM
As far as Lee’s and OSD’s recollections of the shows from the period vs. the recollections of Custom Machine and others, isn’t it possible that the Boys’ then-current music went over better in markets where there was exposure for their recent music? If 8 remember an older OSD post, I seem to recall him telling a great story about being at the comeback show at Carnegie Hall. Remember that Pete Fornatale was a champion of The Beach Boys who continued to play their music on FM radio. Maybe the NYC audience had a better idea of what to expect from the 1971 Beach Boys than audiences in other towns where they didn’t get FM airplay.

Exactly, PB. Surf's Up and, yes, Sunflower had decent exposure on FM progressive radio. WMMR in Philly loved them. The jocks were music junkies and understood the importance of the band, especially Ed Sciaky (rip). Ed was a friend who made sure I got to see the boys (among other groups) whenever they were in town and actually got to even party with them a few times. Man, what a great time to be alive. The 1971 Carnegie appearance was otherworldly in it's appreciation of the band. Very few, if any catcalls, thunderous applause for the new material as well as the old. With the combination of the FM stations up and down the east coast playing their newer material and their well rehearsed shows, they could do no wrong with the exception of letting Jack eventually slip away. ::)

Wow! Thank you for that post. Ed Sciaky...made my night reading this. Seriously, thank you. I'm smiling ear to ear and also digging out some pretty amazing audio from the dusty ol' collection.

I'll just say what OSD writes about WMMR and Philly radio, and Ed Sciaky...It's the good stuff. The really good stuff.

Some of what shapes my opinions on the Rieley era and the music/shows and what spoiled me on how good radio can be was growing up listening to Philly radio.

Without derailing too much, I'll say I grew up a little too late for Ed's original runs on powerhouse FM stations 'MMR and 'IOQ...but my formative music listening years when I really dove in headfirst included Ed's run on 94 WYSP. Ed's show "The Sunday Night Alternative". Free-form, intelligent, solid radio on Sunday nights.

For those who don't know, Ed is one of those DJ's responsible for breaking Billy Joel and Bruce Springsteen among others nationwide. Ed loved their earliest releases and would play them, talk them up, and promote them - Ed had the clout as a top FM host to where others would listen to him and his recommendations. This is why Philly is still one of Billy Joel's hottest areas to play in terms of fans. Ed was spinning Captain Jack, and that song is still bigger here than in most markets.

Look up the famous photo of Bowie and Springsteen...Bowie was a Sigma Sound and wanted to play his version of one of Bruce's tunes...anyway, read it online, it's a famous photo from '74 before Bruce really broke out nationwide with Born To Run. He was still playing college gigs.


Back to the music...I know, because I have it in my files (and it's available elsewhere) some tapes of WMMR playing "Take A Load Off Your Feet" when the SU album was new. They played the Big Sur live version of WIBN just before that. Other broadcasts of WMMR feature deep cuts like "Cool Cool Water"...Yes, Virginia, those songs were played on FM radio and fans in Philly were into that period of the Beach Boys. It wasn't all shouting for oldies and heckling the band.

For fans of the bootlegs, dig out the April 1980 KTSA show at The Spectrum taped off the air from Philly's WIOQ...the conversation near the end is Ed Sciaky and Michael Tozzi. So fans have heard Ed if they've heard that boot.

Random memory...Unless my memory is that bad, I was listening to Ed Sciaky's WYSP show on my Sony Walkman on a Sunday night when the word came in that Freddie Mercury had passed away. Naturally the rest of the show was Queen...and it was heartbreaking and beautiful, and the perfect show and station to be listening to when that happened.

I wish I had experienced Ed and WMMR back in the day...only thing to do is listen to whatever tapes exist and get to taste a piece of just how fucking good it was.

Thanks again for an awesome memory. The Beach Boys did indeed have a very loyal and respectful audience in Philly, and a lot was thanks to legendary DJ's and hosts like Sciaky, Tearson, Dye, etc.

Me right now listening to old WMMR tapes...  :rock


Title: Re: Recent thoughts on Jack Rieley by the Beach Boys?
Post by: The LEGENDARY OSD on September 14, 2018, 08:23:20 PM


Micheal Tozzi was a class act for sure. He was not only a good friend but a real tie die in the wool Beach Boy fanatic. We had some great times together. No one could match Ed's mellifluous delivery but Toz came closer than anyone else. I got to know him while he was at 'IOQ. He religiously played a BB cut on every damn one of his shows. I remember calling him once to see what track he played when I couldn't listen. He and Dennis became quite close and, according to Micheal, when Dennis played Philly, they'd get together. Micheal was a drummer and Dennis would actually ask him how his performance was that night (sounds like Brian, huh?). Mike would not pander to him and he'd give it to him straight, good or not so good and Denny took it in stride. I'll never forget when Micheal called me about Dennis passing away. As time went on, Micheal bought a Subway franchise in Upper Darby, Pa. and I became his biggest customer with him preparing meals for my customers. After that venture, he went to WJJZ Smooth Jazz. I always ragged on him and dared him to lock the studio door and play Pet Sounds but he did have a family to feed. What a great guy indeed.


Title: Re: Recent thoughts on Jack Rieley by the Beach Boys?
Post by: guitarfool2002 on September 14, 2018, 09:39:06 PM


Micheal Tozzi was a class act for sure. He was not only a good friend but a real tie die in the wool Beach Boy fanatic. We had some great times together. No one could match Ed's mellifluous delivery but Toz came closer than anyone else. I got to know him while he was at 'IOQ. He religiously played a BB cut on every damn one of his shows. I remember calling him once to see what track he played when I couldn't listen. He and Dennis became quite close and, according to Micheal, when Dennis played Philly, they'd get together. Micheal was a drummer and Dennis would actually ask him how his performance was that night (sounds like Brian, huh?). Mike would not pander to him and he'd give it to him straight, good or not so good and Denny took it in stride. I'll never forget when Micheal called me about Dennis passing away. As time went on, Micheal bought a Subway franchise in Upper Darby, Pa. and I became his biggest customer with him preparing meals for my customers. After that venture, he went to WJJZ Smooth Jazz. I always ragged on him and dared him to lock the studio door and play Pet Sounds but he did have a family to feed. What a great guy indeed.

Absolutely fantastic! Wow. I'm loving hearing all of this. Too young to be there and hear these radio legends in their prime, this is awesome hearing about them.

WJJZ? Wow, haha. I remember that station. I was riding home from the Philly airport late one night and the driver had it on and was grooving to it...a "smooth" version of Take Five. I was speechless  :lol

The Pet Sounds dare - classic! He should have done it!

Reminds me of a truly great Philly radio moment. Courtesy Ed Sciaky on a Sunday night on WYSP. I know it happened because I taped it and still have the full cassette.

Ed previewed his show earlier by saying he would be playing music from the legendary "lost" Beach Boys "Smile" album on his show. Holy sh*t, I couldn't believe it. I didn't have to work or do anything that night, and made sure I had a blank cassette and my FM antenna set up just right on my receiver. Made sure I was home that night.

Sure enough, Ed briefly talked it up on the show, and he didn't just play a few tracks. Ed played almost an hour of Smile music. No commercials. No commentary. No station ID's or bumpers. Just track after track of Brian's Smile music, uninterrupted.

I remember laying in front of the speakers completely amazed. Blown away. The whole bit.

Ed came on after the last track ended. He read from Derek Taylor's famous press release..."every meticulously crafted note...has been scrapped." It was exactly, perfectly, well-done. It was sad, and Ed's voice nailed the emotion perfectly. The best music in the fucking universe that never got released. This was when the idea of a finished Smile, no less with Brian playing it on stage on tour, was pure fantasy and thought to be impossible.

That was how good Ed's show was even in his later shows on 'YSP. Never forgot that...played that cassette to death and copied it for anyone interested.

WYSP also played Pet Sounds, Live In London in full...front to back, no interruptions or commercials. Imagine that...classic rock radio doing that. I know they did it because I still have those tapes too. It was the first time I heard the Live In London album, and as soon as Aren't You Glad came on, I was hooked. No, I was obsessed.

That's how good it was, Philly radio from MMR to IOQ to YSP. They respected the Beach Boys. That's why reading more stories about all of this is such a fun trip. This is the good stuff, and the memories are worth more than any amount of money.

Thanks again  :)


Title: Re: Recent thoughts on Jack Rieley by the Beach Boys?
Post by: Jay on September 14, 2018, 10:05:56 PM


Micheal Tozzi was a class act for sure. He was not only a good friend but a real tie die in the wool Beach Boy fanatic. We had some great times together. No one could match Ed's mellifluous delivery but Toz came closer than anyone else. I got to know him while he was at 'IOQ. He religiously played a BB cut on every damn one of his shows. I remember calling him once to see what track he played when I couldn't listen. He and Dennis became quite close and, according to Micheal, when Dennis played Philly, they'd get together. Micheal was a drummer and Dennis would actually ask him how his performance was that night (sounds like Brian, huh?). Mike would not pander to him and he'd give it to him straight, good or not so good and Denny took it in stride. I'll never forget when Micheal called me about Dennis passing away. As time went on, Micheal bought a Subway franchise in Upper Darby, Pa. and I became his biggest customer with him preparing meals for my customers. After that venture, he went to WJJZ Smooth Jazz. I always ragged on him and dared him to lock the studio door and play Pet Sounds but he did have a family to feed. What a great guy indeed.

Absolutely fantastic! Wow. I'm loving hearing all of this. Too young to be there and hear these radio legends in their prime, this is awesome hearing about them.

WJJZ? Wow, haha. I remember that station. I was riding home from the Philly airport late one night and the driver had it on and was grooving to it...a "smooth" version of Take Five. I was speechless  :lol

The Pet Sounds dare - classic! He should have done it!

Reminds me of a truly great Philly radio moment. Courtesy Ed Sciaky on a Sunday night on WYSP. I know it happened because I taped it and still have the full cassette.

Ed previewed his show earlier by saying he would be playing music from the legendary "lost" Beach Boys "Smile" album on his show. Holy sh*t, I couldn't believe it. I didn't have to work or do anything that night, and made sure I had a blank cassette and my FM antenna set up just right on my receiver. Made sure I was home that night.

Sure enough, Ed briefly talked it up on the show, and he didn't just play a few tracks. Ed played almost an hour of Smile music. No commercials. No commentary. No station ID's or bumpers. Just track after track of Brian's Smile music, uninterrupted.

I remember laying in front of the speakers completely amazed. Blown away. The whole bit.

Ed came on after the last track ended. He read from Derek Taylor's famous press release..."every meticulously crafted note...has been scrapped." It was exactly, perfectly, well-done. It was sad, and Ed's voice nailed the emotion perfectly. The best music in the fucking universe that never got released. This was when the idea of a finished Smile, no less with Brian playing it on stage on tour, was pure fantasy and thought to be impossible.

That was how good Ed's show was even in his later shows on 'YSP. Never forgot that...played that cassette to death and copied it for anyone interested.

WYSP also played Pet Sounds, Live In London in full...front to back, no interruptions or commercials. Imagine that...classic rock radio doing that. I know they did it because I still have those tapes too. It was the first time I heard the Live In London album, and as soon as Aren't You Glad came on, I was hooked. No, I was obsessed.

That's how good it was, Philly radio from MMR to IOQ to YSP. They respected the Beach Boys. That's why reading more stories about all of this is such a fun trip. This is the good stuff, and the memories are worth more than any amount of money.

Thanks again  :)
I wonder if a recording of this can be found anywhere.


Title: Re: Recent thoughts on Jack Rieley by the Beach Boys?
Post by: Needleinthehay on September 15, 2018, 12:12:07 AM

Ed previewed his show earlier by saying he would be playing music from the legendary "lost" Beach Boys "Smile" album on his show. Holy sh*t, I couldn't believe it. I didn't have to work or do anything that night, and made sure I had a blank cassette and my FM antenna set up just right on my receiver. Made sure I was home that night.

Sure enough, Ed briefly talked it up on the show, and he didn't just play a few tracks. Ed played almost an hour of Smile music. No commercials. No commentary. No station ID's or bumpers. Just track after track of Brian's Smile music, uninterrupted.

I remember laying in front of the speakers completely amazed. Blown away. The whole bit.

Ed came on after the last track ended. He read from Derek Taylor's famous press release..."every meticulously crafted note...has been scrapped." It was exactly, perfectly, well-done. It was sad, and Ed's voice nailed the emotion perfectly. The best music in the fucking universe that never got released. This was when the idea of a finished Smile, no less with Brian playing it on stage on tour, was pure fantasy and thought to be impossible.


What year would you say that was? Curious how early he had the Smile stuff?


Title: Re: Recent thoughts on Jack Rieley by the Beach Boys?
Post by: Jay on September 15, 2018, 01:38:49 AM
Billy has to make it for the next Fear2Stop album.  ;D He has to listen to me, because I'm his manager.  ;)

:lol
B-side will be "long tall texan" with Billy yodeling! ;)
Dear God. I'm almost scared to hear the result of that!  :lol


Title: Re: Recent thoughts on Jack Rieley by the Beach Boys?
Post by: Custom Machine on September 15, 2018, 01:42:24 AM

Exactly, PB. Surf's Up and, yes, Sunflower had decent exposure on FM progressive radio. WMMR in Philly loved them. The jocks were music junkies and understood the importance of the band, especially Ed Sciaky (rip). Ed was a friend who made sure I got to see the boys (among other groups) whenever they were in town and actually got to even party with them a few times. Man, what a great time to be alive. The 1971 Carnegie appearance was otherworldly in it's appreciation of the band. Very few, if any catcalls, thunderous applause for the new material as well as the old. With the combination of the FM stations up and down the east coast playing their newer material and their well rehearsed shows, they could do no wrong with the exception of letting Jack eventually slip away. ::)



Wow! Thank you for that post. Ed Sciaky...made my night reading this. Seriously, thank you. I'm smiling ear to ear and also digging out some pretty amazing audio from the dusty ol' collection.

I'll just say what OSD writes about WMMR and Philly radio, and Ed Sciaky...It's the good stuff. The really good stuff.

Some of what shapes my opinions on the Rieley era and the music/shows and what spoiled me on how good radio can be was growing up listening to Philly radio.

Without derailing too much, I'll say I grew up a little too late for Ed's original runs on powerhouse FM stations 'MMR and 'IOQ...but my formative music listening years when I really dove in headfirst included Ed's run on 94 WYSP. Ed's show "The Sunday Night Alternative". Free-form, intelligent, solid radio on Sunday nights.

For those who don't know, Ed is one of those DJ's responsible for breaking Billy Joel and Bruce Springsteen among others nationwide. Ed loved their earliest releases and would play them, talk them up, and promote them - Ed had the clout as a top FM host to where others would listen to him and his recommendations. This is why Philly is still one of Billy Joel's hottest areas to play in terms of fans. Ed was spinning Captain Jack, and that song is still bigger here than in most markets.

Look up the famous photo of Bowie and Springsteen...Bowie was a Sigma Sound and wanted to play his version of one of Bruce's tunes...anyway, read it online, it's a famous photo from '74 before Bruce really broke out nationwide with Born To Run. He was still playing college gigs.

Back to the music...I know, because I have it in my files (and it's available elsewhere) some tapes of WMMR playing "Take A Load Off Your Feet" when the SU album was new. They played the Big Sur live version of WIBN just before that. Other broadcasts of WMMR feature deep cuts like "Cool Cool Water"...Yes, Virginia, those songs were played on FM radio and fans in Philly were into that period of the Beach Boys. It wasn't all shouting for oldies and heckling the band.

For fans of the bootlegs, dig out the April 1980 KTSA show at The Spectrum taped off the air from Philly's WIOQ...the conversation near the end is Ed Sciaky and Michael Tozzi. So fans have heard Ed if they've heard that boot.

Random memory...Unless my memory is that bad, I was listening to Ed Sciaky's WYSP show on my Sony Walkman on a Sunday night when the word came in that Freddie Mercury had passed away. Naturally the rest of the show was Queen...and it was heartbreaking and beautiful, and the perfect show and station to be listening to when that happened.

I wish I had experienced Ed and WMMR back in the day...only thing to do is listen to whatever tapes exist and get to taste a piece of just how fucking good it was.

Thanks again for an awesome memory. The Beach Boys did indeed have a very loyal and respectful audience in Philly, and a lot was thanks to legendary DJ's and hosts like Sciaky, Tearson, Dye, etc.

Me right now listening to old WMMR tapes...  :rock



Micheal Tozzi was a class act for sure. He was not only a good friend but a real tie die in the wool Beach Boy fanatic. We had some great times together. No one could match Ed's mellifluous delivery but Toz came closer than anyone else. I got to know him while he was at 'IOQ. He religiously played a BB cut on every damn one of his shows. I remember calling him once to see what track he played when I couldn't listen. He and Dennis became quite close and, according to Micheal, when Dennis played Philly, they'd get together. Micheal was a drummer and Dennis would actually ask him how his performance was that night (sounds like Brian, huh?). Mike would not pander to him and he'd give it to him straight, good or not so good and Denny took it in stride. I'll never forget when Micheal called me about Dennis passing away. As time went on, Micheal bought a Subway franchise in Upper Darby, Pa. and I became his biggest customer with him preparing meals for my customers. After that venture, he went to WJJZ Smooth Jazz. I always ragged on him and dared him to lock the studio door and play Pet Sounds but he did have a family to feed. What a great guy indeed.



Absolutely fantastic! Wow. I'm loving hearing all of this. Too young to be there and hear these radio legends in their prime, this is awesome hearing about them.

WJJZ? Wow, haha. I remember that station. I was riding home from the Philly airport late one night and the driver had it on and was grooving to it...a "smooth" version of Take Five. I was speechless  :lol

The Pet Sounds dare - classic! He should have done it!

Reminds me of a truly great Philly radio moment. Courtesy Ed Sciaky on a Sunday night on WYSP. I know it happened because I taped it and still have the full cassette.

Ed previewed his show earlier by saying he would be playing music from the legendary "lost" Beach Boys "Smile" album on his show. Holy sh*t, I couldn't believe it. I didn't have to work or do anything that night, and made sure I had a blank cassette and my FM antenna set up just right on my receiver. Made sure I was home that night.

Sure enough, Ed briefly talked it up on the show, and he didn't just play a few tracks. Ed played almost an hour of Smile music. No commercials. No commentary. No station ID's or bumpers. Just track after track of Brian's Smile music, uninterrupted.

I remember laying in front of the speakers completely amazed. Blown away. The whole bit.

Ed came on after the last track ended. He read from Derek Taylor's famous press release..."every meticulously crafted note...has been scrapped." It was exactly, perfectly, well-done. It was sad, and Ed's voice nailed the emotion perfectly. The best music in the fucking universe that never got released. This was when the idea of a finished Smile, no less with Brian playing it on stage on tour, was pure fantasy and thought to be impossible.

That was how good Ed's show was even in his later shows on 'YSP. Never forgot that...played that cassette to death and copied it for anyone interested.

WYSP also played Pet Sounds, Live In London in full...front to back, no interruptions or commercials. Imagine that...classic rock radio doing that. I know they did it because I still have those tapes too. It was the first time I heard the Live In London album, and as soon as Aren't You Glad came on, I was hooked. No, I was obsessed.

That's how good it was, Philly radio from MMR to IOQ to YSP. They respected the Beach Boys. That's why reading more stories about all of this is such a fun trip. This is the good stuff, and the memories are worth more than any amount of money.

Thanks again  :)


Damnit, guys, as a radio junkie I absolutely love hearing these recollections.
 
But I post the above statement with mixed feelings, since as I've expressed before, Mr. OSD drives me absolutely nuts with his incessant posts and sig line doing nothing but trashing "myKe luHv" or however the hell he spells it. As I've said before, many of those posts strike me as incredibly immature. And, while I've mentioned this to GF in a PM, I've never said it on the forum, but here goes - GF so often baffles me as he is responsible for some exceptionally interesting and well researched posts but unfortunately (I just had to use that word, right?) frequently finds it difficult to acknowledge contrary opinions, coupled with restating his opinion over and over again.

And Craig, you are more than welcome to rebut this, but seriously, you'll probably look better if you act as though this post is not worth your time and attention as far as a response is concerned. :)  That is unless you'd like to post more Philly radio recollections, which I'd love to hear. Whatever the case, treat this as my opinion, not a f*cking kick in the balls.

Anyway, thanks guys, for your radio recollections, I really enjoyed reading 'em.

And why am I even writing this? I don't know, as I've only consumed one Jack Daniel's on the rocks this evening, so I can't blame lauding these radio recollections on inebriation.  It's gotta be because I was inspired by Jay, hopefully to help keep his comment "I have to say that this is one of the most interesting threads this board has had in years" going.




Title: Re: Recent thoughts on Jack Rieley by the Beach Boys?
Post by: ♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇 on September 15, 2018, 01:45:55 AM
Billy has to make it for the next Fear2Stop album.  ;D He has to listen to me, because I'm his manager.  ;)

:lol
B-side will be "long tall texan" with Billy yodeling! ;)
Dear God. I'm almost scared to hear the result of that!  :lol


My daughter did a parody of it. I’ll try to convince her to let me record it


Title: Re: Recent thoughts on Jack Rieley by the Beach Boys?
Post by: ♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇 on September 15, 2018, 01:48:34 AM

Exactly, PB. Surf's Up and, yes, Sunflower had decent exposure on FM progressive radio. WMMR in Philly loved them. The jocks were music junkies and understood the importance of the band, especially Ed Sciaky (rip). Ed was a friend who made sure I got to see the boys (among other groups) whenever they were in town and actually got to even party with them a few times. Man, what a great time to be alive. The 1971 Carnegie appearance was otherworldly in it's appreciation of the band. Very few, if any catcalls, thunderous applause for the new material as well as the old. With the combination of the FM stations up and down the east coast playing their newer material and their well rehearsed shows, they could do no wrong with the exception of letting Jack eventually slip away. ::)



Wow! Thank you for that post. Ed Sciaky...made my night reading this. Seriously, thank you. I'm smiling ear to ear and also digging out some pretty amazing audio from the dusty ol' collection.

I'll just say what OSD writes about WMMR and Philly radio, and Ed Sciaky...It's the good stuff. The really good stuff.

Some of what shapes my opinions on the Rieley era and the music/shows and what spoiled me on how good radio can be was growing up listening to Philly radio.

Without derailing too much, I'll say I grew up a little too late for Ed's original runs on powerhouse FM stations 'MMR and 'IOQ...but my formative music listening years when I really dove in headfirst included Ed's run on 94 WYSP. Ed's show "The Sunday Night Alternative". Free-form, intelligent, solid radio on Sunday nights.

For those who don't know, Ed is one of those DJ's responsible for breaking Billy Joel and Bruce Springsteen among others nationwide. Ed loved their earliest releases and would play them, talk them up, and promote them - Ed had the clout as a top FM host to where others would listen to him and his recommendations. This is why Philly is still one of Billy Joel's hottest areas to play in terms of fans. Ed was spinning Captain Jack, and that song is still bigger here than in most markets.

Look up the famous photo of Bowie and Springsteen...Bowie was a Sigma Sound and wanted to play his version of one of Bruce's tunes...anyway, read it online, it's a famous photo from '74 before Bruce really broke out nationwide with Born To Run. He was still playing college gigs.

Back to the music...I know, because I have it in my files (and it's available elsewhere) some tapes of WMMR playing "Take A Load Off Your Feet" when the SU album was new. They played the Big Sur live version of WIBN just before that. Other broadcasts of WMMR feature deep cuts like "Cool Cool Water"...Yes, Virginia, those songs were played on FM radio and fans in Philly were into that period of the Beach Boys. It wasn't all shouting for oldies and heckling the band.

For fans of the bootlegs, dig out the April 1980 KTSA show at The Spectrum taped off the air from Philly's WIOQ...the conversation near the end is Ed Sciaky and Michael Tozzi. So fans have heard Ed if they've heard that boot.

Random memory...Unless my memory is that bad, I was listening to Ed Sciaky's WYSP show on my Sony Walkman on a Sunday night when the word came in that Freddie Mercury had passed away. Naturally the rest of the show was Queen...and it was heartbreaking and beautiful, and the perfect show and station to be listening to when that happened.

I wish I had experienced Ed and WMMR back in the day...only thing to do is listen to whatever tapes exist and get to taste a piece of just how fucking good it was.

Thanks again for an awesome memory. The Beach Boys did indeed have a very loyal and respectful audience in Philly, and a lot was thanks to legendary DJ's and hosts like Sciaky, Tearson, Dye, etc.

Me right now listening to old WMMR tapes...  :rock



Micheal Tozzi was a class act for sure. He was not only a good friend but a real tie die in the wool Beach Boy fanatic. We had some great times together. No one could match Ed's mellifluous delivery but Toz came closer than anyone else. I got to know him while he was at 'IOQ. He religiously played a BB cut on every damn one of his shows. I remember calling him once to see what track he played when I couldn't listen. He and Dennis became quite close and, according to Micheal, when Dennis played Philly, they'd get together. Micheal was a drummer and Dennis would actually ask him how his performance was that night (sounds like Brian, huh?). Mike would not pander to him and he'd give it to him straight, good or not so good and Denny took it in stride. I'll never forget when Micheal called me about Dennis passing away. As time went on, Micheal bought a Subway franchise in Upper Darby, Pa. and I became his biggest customer with him preparing meals for my customers. After that venture, he went to WJJZ Smooth Jazz. I always ragged on him and dared him to lock the studio door and play Pet Sounds but he did have a family to feed. What a great guy indeed.



Absolutely fantastic! Wow. I'm loving hearing all of this. Too young to be there and hear these radio legends in their prime, this is awesome hearing about them.

WJJZ? Wow, haha. I remember that station. I was riding home from the Philly airport late one night and the driver had it on and was grooving to it...a "smooth" version of Take Five. I was speechless  :lol

The Pet Sounds dare - classic! He should have done it!

Reminds me of a truly great Philly radio moment. Courtesy Ed Sciaky on a Sunday night on WYSP. I know it happened because I taped it and still have the full cassette.

Ed previewed his show earlier by saying he would be playing music from the legendary "lost" Beach Boys "Smile" album on his show. Holy sh*t, I couldn't believe it. I didn't have to work or do anything that night, and made sure I had a blank cassette and my FM antenna set up just right on my receiver. Made sure I was home that night.

Sure enough, Ed briefly talked it up on the show, and he didn't just play a few tracks. Ed played almost an hour of Smile music. No commercials. No commentary. No station ID's or bumpers. Just track after track of Brian's Smile music, uninterrupted.

I remember laying in front of the speakers completely amazed. Blown away. The whole bit.

Ed came on after the last track ended. He read from Derek Taylor's famous press release..."every meticulously crafted note...has been scrapped." It was exactly, perfectly, well-done. It was sad, and Ed's voice nailed the emotion perfectly. The best music in the fucking universe that never got released. This was when the idea of a finished Smile, no less with Brian playing it on stage on tour, was pure fantasy and thought to be impossible.

That was how good Ed's show was even in his later shows on 'YSP. Never forgot that...played that cassette to death and copied it for anyone interested.

WYSP also played Pet Sounds, Live In London in full...front to back, no interruptions or commercials. Imagine that...classic rock radio doing that. I know they did it because I still have those tapes too. It was the first time I heard the Live In London album, and as soon as Aren't You Glad came on, I was hooked. No, I was obsessed.

That's how good it was, Philly radio from MMR to IOQ to YSP. They respected the Beach Boys. That's why reading more stories about all of this is such a fun trip. This is the good stuff, and the memories are worth more than any amount of money.

Thanks again  :)


Damnit, guys, as a radio junkie I absolutely love hearing these recollections.
 
But I post the above statement with mixed feelings, since as I've expressed before, Mr. OSD drives me absolutely nuts with his incessant posts and sig line doing nothing but trashing "myKe luHv" or however the hell he spells it. As I've said before, many of those posts strike me as incredibly immature. And, while I've mentioned this to GF in a PM, I've never said it on the forum, but here goes - GF so often baffles me as he is responsible for some exceptionally interesting and well researched posts but unfortunately (I just had to use that word, right?) frequently finds it difficult to acknowledge contrary opinions, coupled with restating his opinion over and over again.

And Craig, you are more than welcome to rebut this, but seriously, you'll probably look better if you act as though this post is not worth your time and attention as far as a response is concerned. :)  That is unless you'd like to post more Philly radio recollections, which I'd love to hear. Whatever the case, treat this as my opinion, not a f*cking kick in the balls.

Anyway, thanks guys, for your radio recollections, I really enjoyed reading 'em.

And why am I even writing this? I don't know, as I've only consumed one Jack Daniel's on the rocks this evening, so I can't blame lauding these radio recollections on inebriation.  It's gotta be because I was inspired by Jay, hopefully to help keep his comment "I have to say that this is one of the most interesting threads this board has had in years" going.




This thread was going along so well; it was honestly one of the best here in a long time. Why bring in negativity?


Title: Re: Recent thoughts on Jack Rieley by the Beach Boys?
Post by: Jay on September 15, 2018, 02:04:36 AM

Exactly, PB. Surf's Up and, yes, Sunflower had decent exposure on FM progressive radio. WMMR in Philly loved them. The jocks were music junkies and understood the importance of the band, especially Ed Sciaky (rip). Ed was a friend who made sure I got to see the boys (among other groups) whenever they were in town and actually got to even party with them a few times. Man, what a great time to be alive. The 1971 Carnegie appearance was otherworldly in it's appreciation of the band. Very few, if any catcalls, thunderous applause for the new material as well as the old. With the combination of the FM stations up and down the east coast playing their newer material and their well rehearsed shows, they could do no wrong with the exception of letting Jack eventually slip away. ::)



Wow! Thank you for that post. Ed Sciaky...made my night reading this. Seriously, thank you. I'm smiling ear to ear and also digging out some pretty amazing audio from the dusty ol' collection.

I'll just say what OSD writes about WMMR and Philly radio, and Ed Sciaky...It's the good stuff. The really good stuff.

Some of what shapes my opinions on the Rieley era and the music/shows and what spoiled me on how good radio can be was growing up listening to Philly radio.

Without derailing too much, I'll say I grew up a little too late for Ed's original runs on powerhouse FM stations 'MMR and 'IOQ...but my formative music listening years when I really dove in headfirst included Ed's run on 94 WYSP. Ed's show "The Sunday Night Alternative". Free-form, intelligent, solid radio on Sunday nights.

For those who don't know, Ed is one of those DJ's responsible for breaking Billy Joel and Bruce Springsteen among others nationwide. Ed loved their earliest releases and would play them, talk them up, and promote them - Ed had the clout as a top FM host to where others would listen to him and his recommendations. This is why Philly is still one of Billy Joel's hottest areas to play in terms of fans. Ed was spinning Captain Jack, and that song is still bigger here than in most markets.

Look up the famous photo of Bowie and Springsteen...Bowie was a Sigma Sound and wanted to play his version of one of Bruce's tunes...anyway, read it online, it's a famous photo from '74 before Bruce really broke out nationwide with Born To Run. He was still playing college gigs.

Back to the music...I know, because I have it in my files (and it's available elsewhere) some tapes of WMMR playing "Take A Load Off Your Feet" when the SU album was new. They played the Big Sur live version of WIBN just before that. Other broadcasts of WMMR feature deep cuts like "Cool Cool Water"...Yes, Virginia, those songs were played on FM radio and fans in Philly were into that period of the Beach Boys. It wasn't all shouting for oldies and heckling the band.

For fans of the bootlegs, dig out the April 1980 KTSA show at The Spectrum taped off the air from Philly's WIOQ...the conversation near the end is Ed Sciaky and Michael Tozzi. So fans have heard Ed if they've heard that boot.

Random memory...Unless my memory is that bad, I was listening to Ed Sciaky's WYSP show on my Sony Walkman on a Sunday night when the word came in that Freddie Mercury had passed away. Naturally the rest of the show was Queen...and it was heartbreaking and beautiful, and the perfect show and station to be listening to when that happened.

I wish I had experienced Ed and WMMR back in the day...only thing to do is listen to whatever tapes exist and get to taste a piece of just how fucking good it was.

Thanks again for an awesome memory. The Beach Boys did indeed have a very loyal and respectful audience in Philly, and a lot was thanks to legendary DJ's and hosts like Sciaky, Tearson, Dye, etc.

Me right now listening to old WMMR tapes...  :rock



Micheal Tozzi was a class act for sure. He was not only a good friend but a real tie die in the wool Beach Boy fanatic. We had some great times together. No one could match Ed's mellifluous delivery but Toz came closer than anyone else. I got to know him while he was at 'IOQ. He religiously played a BB cut on every damn one of his shows. I remember calling him once to see what track he played when I couldn't listen. He and Dennis became quite close and, according to Micheal, when Dennis played Philly, they'd get together. Micheal was a drummer and Dennis would actually ask him how his performance was that night (sounds like Brian, huh?). Mike would not pander to him and he'd give it to him straight, good or not so good and Denny took it in stride. I'll never forget when Micheal called me about Dennis passing away. As time went on, Micheal bought a Subway franchise in Upper Darby, Pa. and I became his biggest customer with him preparing meals for my customers. After that venture, he went to WJJZ Smooth Jazz. I always ragged on him and dared him to lock the studio door and play Pet Sounds but he did have a family to feed. What a great guy indeed.



Absolutely fantastic! Wow. I'm loving hearing all of this. Too young to be there and hear these radio legends in their prime, this is awesome hearing about them.

WJJZ? Wow, haha. I remember that station. I was riding home from the Philly airport late one night and the driver had it on and was grooving to it...a "smooth" version of Take Five. I was speechless  :lol

The Pet Sounds dare - classic! He should have done it!

Reminds me of a truly great Philly radio moment. Courtesy Ed Sciaky on a Sunday night on WYSP. I know it happened because I taped it and still have the full cassette.

Ed previewed his show earlier by saying he would be playing music from the legendary "lost" Beach Boys "Smile" album on his show. Holy sh*t, I couldn't believe it. I didn't have to work or do anything that night, and made sure I had a blank cassette and my FM antenna set up just right on my receiver. Made sure I was home that night.

Sure enough, Ed briefly talked it up on the show, and he didn't just play a few tracks. Ed played almost an hour of Smile music. No commercials. No commentary. No station ID's or bumpers. Just track after track of Brian's Smile music, uninterrupted.

I remember laying in front of the speakers completely amazed. Blown away. The whole bit.

Ed came on after the last track ended. He read from Derek Taylor's famous press release..."every meticulously crafted note...has been scrapped." It was exactly, perfectly, well-done. It was sad, and Ed's voice nailed the emotion perfectly. The best music in the fucking universe that never got released. This was when the idea of a finished Smile, no less with Brian playing it on stage on tour, was pure fantasy and thought to be impossible.

That was how good Ed's show was even in his later shows on 'YSP. Never forgot that...played that cassette to death and copied it for anyone interested.

WYSP also played Pet Sounds, Live In London in full...front to back, no interruptions or commercials. Imagine that...classic rock radio doing that. I know they did it because I still have those tapes too. It was the first time I heard the Live In London album, and as soon as Aren't You Glad came on, I was hooked. No, I was obsessed.

That's how good it was, Philly radio from MMR to IOQ to YSP. They respected the Beach Boys. That's why reading more stories about all of this is such a fun trip. This is the good stuff, and the memories are worth more than any amount of money.

Thanks again  :)


Damnit, guys, as a radio junkie I absolutely love hearing these recollections.
 
But I post the above statement with mixed feelings, since as I've expressed before, Mr. OSD drives me absolutely nuts with his incessant posts and sig line doing nothing but trashing "myKe luHv" or however the hell he spells it. As I've said before, many of those posts strike me as incredibly immature. And, while I've mentioned this to GF in a PM, I've never said it on the forum, but here goes - GF so often baffles me as he is responsible for some exceptionally interesting and well researched posts but unfortunately (I just had to use that word, right?) frequently finds it difficult to acknowledge contrary opinions, coupled with restating his opinion over and over again.

And Craig, you are more than welcome to rebut this, but seriously, you'll probably look better if you act as though this post is not worth your time and attention as far as a response is concerned. :)  That is unless you'd like to post more Philly radio recollections, which I'd love to hear. Whatever the case, treat this as my opinion, not a f*cking kick in the balls.

Anyway, thanks guys, for your radio recollections, I really enjoyed reading 'em.

And why am I even writing this? I don't know, as I've only consumed one Jack Daniel's on the rocks this evening, so I can't blame lauding these radio recollections on inebriation.  It's gotta be because I was inspired by Jay, hopefully to help keep his comment "I have to say that this is one of the most interesting threads this board has had in years" going.




This thread was going along so well; it was honestly one of the best here in a long time. Why bring in negativity?
I kind of get his point. After reading the In Concert book, it really opened my eyes to how bad the group had it at a pivotal point in their history. You really can't downplay how bad they had it for a while. They really did make a serious effort effort to change their style. As much as I loved the book, I have to admit that it paints a rather tragic story of a band that made a brave effort, only to resign to the inevitable. I think I'm dangerously close to talking about the book in a negative way(something that I would never intentionally do), so I'll end it here.

I also see your point as well. I agree that a thread as great as this needs to have the least amount of negative energy possible.

Edit: Perhaps I need to learn to read every post before I spout nonsense and get egg on my face.  :lol


Title: Re: Recent thoughts on Jack Rieley by the Beach Boys?
Post by: Custom Machine on September 15, 2018, 10:07:26 AM

This thread was going along so well; it was honestly one of the best here in a long time. Why bring in negativity?


I tried to make my post as balanced as possible, but it was essentially in reaction to some interesting and well stated non-negative posts from the guy who has consistently been responsible for spewing out negativity on this board for years, with an ultra-negative sig line, “myKe luHv, the most hated, embarrassing clown the world of music has ever witnessed.” Hell, we all know Mr. Love is far from perfect, but that poster’s non-stop negativity has been irritating me for years, so I guess I had to make mention of something positive he posted that I found to be an interesting read, with GF part of that conversation.

In retrospect it may have been best to leave GF out of my reply, as he is, as stated, responsible for some highly interesting and well researched posts, but as many on this board are aware he is often considered a controversial figure in BB land, frequently arguing his point of view incessantly with a “my way or the highway” frame of mind, along with appearing to be hyper-sensitive to criticism. So I was attempting to offer some unsolicited constructive criticism.

And I’m more than open to constructive criticism myself, in fact one of my recent posts contains the line, “Don’t screw up like I did.”




Title: Re: Recent thoughts on Jack Rieley by the Beach Boys?
Post by: ♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇 on September 15, 2018, 10:14:12 AM
Roger that. Just came across differently than you intended.


Title: Re: Recent thoughts on Jack Rieley by the Beach Boys?
Post by: Custom Machine on September 15, 2018, 02:11:53 PM
Yeah, that's one of the disadvantages of a message board, as opposed to discussing stuff in person over a beer. For example, now rereading my post of last night I see how my statement "unfortunately (I just had to use that word, right?)" could be misconstrued as being confrontational, which was not my intent at all, as it was written with levity in mind, along the lines of my satirical lyrics for "While the Girls Sigh."






Title: Re: Recent thoughts on Jack Rieley by the Beach Boys?
Post by: ♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇 on September 15, 2018, 02:42:27 PM
Amen to that!


Title: Re: Recent thoughts on Jack Rieley by the Beach Boys?
Post by: Custom Machine on September 15, 2018, 11:28:16 PM
I would also like to add that Guitarfool and I first exchanged a series (over 20) of PMs about six years ago and I found him then to be an incredibly nice guy who was an absolute pleasure "converse" with via email. He's obviously a very bright person who is meticulous in his research. The other points I made earlier were an attempt at constructive criticism concerning over-arguing one's point of view, etc. (Not that I'm not doing that now, right? :))

Recently I was quite surprised when I heard from an individual who told me he had met Mr. OSD at a concert and said he came across as a very nice guy, stating that the real life OSD seemed to be nothing like the toxic poster OSD, and that people would have a higher opinion of the guy if he behaved online as he does in person. And yeah, I know OSD has his admirers here, and is given slack by some because he's in the anti-Mike camp, to put it mildly. Personally I don't wish to be in the anti-camp of any of the band members. I've certainly got my faults and various members of the band have theirs, some more than others, but for me the bottom line is that while the BBs were often a dysfunctional group I'm thankful for the wonderful music they have given us, especially Summer of Love and Smart Girls ... oops, sorry, lost my head!

And speaking of going on and on ... enough of anyone suffering thru reading yet another post of mine on this subject, let's get back to discussing Jack Rieley and the Rieley era ...



Title: Re: Recent thoughts on Jack Rieley by the Beach Boys?
Post by: ♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇 on September 16, 2018, 01:00:40 AM
Ok here’s a question... how different do you think things would’ve gone down had Brian been more active during the Reiley era?


Title: Re: Recent thoughts on Jack Rieley by the Beach Boys?
Post by: Jay on September 16, 2018, 01:23:52 AM
Ok here’s a question... how different do you think things would’ve gone down had Brian been more active during the Reiley era?
I think Reiley would have stayed longer. But then again, would Brian have embraced a new style of music?


Title: Re: Recent thoughts on Jack Rieley by the Beach Boys?
Post by: ♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇 on September 16, 2018, 01:42:37 AM
That’s what I mean. What would Brian sings have sounded like? I mean despite previously held beliefs, he was more involved with So Tough than previously believed. What would’ve happened had he been around during Sunflower? Personally I prefer what we got but it could’ve been interesting


Title: Re: Recent thoughts on Jack Rieley by the Beach Boys?
Post by: Jay on September 16, 2018, 01:58:41 AM
That’s what I mean. What would Brian sings have sounded like? I mean despite previously held beliefs, he was more involved with So Tough than previously believed. What would’ve happened had he been around during Sunflower? Personally I prefer what we got but it could’ve been interesting
According to Stephen Desper's notes on his videos Brian is all over Sunflower. Probably more than So Tough. I think perhaps if all three Wilson brothers would have stayed active, it just might have eventually pushed Mike out of the group. Perhaps Brian would have held enough power to keep the "TM axis" from taking over the touring backing group. But what about Blondie and Ricki? Did Blondie have issued with Jack?


Title: Re: Recent thoughts on Jack Rieley by the Beach Boys?
Post by: ♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇 on September 16, 2018, 02:01:02 AM
I meant if Jack had been around during Sunflower


Title: Re: Recent thoughts on Jack Rieley by the Beach Boys?
Post by: Jay on September 16, 2018, 02:05:13 AM
I meant if Jack had been around during Sunflower
Yeah, I misread.  :lol I've always thought of Sunflower as kind of Dennis's album.


Title: Re: Recent thoughts on Jack Rieley by the Beach Boys?
Post by: ♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇 on September 16, 2018, 02:12:02 AM
I can see that. I think if Reiley had been around I think Dennis may have been promoted as the main focal point


Title: Re: Recent thoughts on Jack Rieley by the Beach Boys?
Post by: Jay on September 16, 2018, 06:36:07 AM
I can see that. I think if Reiley had been around I think Dennis may have been promoted as the main focal point
If only be could have overcome his drinking problem, I can see him becoming perhaps a "duel leader" of the group onstage. I'm thinking of the 1970-ish to 1974 period specifically.


Title: Re: Recent thoughts on Jack Rieley by the Beach Boys?
Post by: B.E. on September 18, 2018, 10:15:51 PM
Revisiting the earlier comments about the Wilsons being pushed more to the fore during the Rieley era, and questions if that were the case, just look at the writing credits on Surf's Up-Carl And The Passions-Holland. Mike is listed as co-writer on 7 tracks across those three albums. One of those was a lyrical rewrite of Leiber and Stoller. They were spreading out the writing duties and it shows just by reading the credits and noting who was writing the tunes during this time.

Just to be clear, I was only refuting one statement you made. You said that Rieley "getting the Wilsons in the forefront of the band's original music was *huge* and needed". I've already commented on that. Bringing up the credits only bolsters my position. The Wilsons credits Friends-Sunflower total 38 [17, 9, 12]. The Wilsons credits Surf's Up-Holland total 18 [6, 6, 6]. Mike having 7 credits Surf's Up-Holland isn't proof of the Wilsons being pushed more into the fore nor does it indicate a change in his role (he had 8 credits Friends-Sunflower). Al had the same amount of credits as Mike in each period. So, what gives? We're hearing approximately the same amount of Mike and Al (and Bruce, where applicable). The person thrusted to the forefront was Jack Rieley and his 9 credits. Blondie and Ricky also contributed 3 credits each. There's also the double LP In Concert which couldn't find room for a single Dennis song (written or sung). Now, obviously, songwriting credits don't tell the whole story and not all songwriting credits are created equal ;D. I get that. With that said, I thought fans praised the late 60s-early 70s Beach Boys because it was a true group effort. Jack's recollections and some of your posts in this thread seem to be trying pretty hard to diminish that.

On a separate note, I've been listening to a lot of Live In London lately. Incredible! I think I've been overlooking that one a bit. Of course, I also tack on the live version of "All I Want To Do" from MiC to the end. I can't do without it. It's probably the hardest rockin' Beach Boys performance ever! Anyway, listening to that great live album with Jack's comments fresh in my mind really put me off. He absolutely trashed their live group. The striped shirts were long gone. They had added a horn section and additional musicians, such as, Ed Carter, Billy Hinsche, and Mike Kowalski. The setlist really strikes me, though. None of the classic surf or car song. Not a single one. They're taking chances with new sounds and styles and managed to represent every album from Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!) - 20/20. You wouldn't get that from Jack's comments at all. Generally, the tone of his recollections don't inspire much confidence. Which is too bad.


Title: Re: Recent thoughts on Jack Rieley by the Beach Boys?
Post by: Don Malcolm on September 19, 2018, 01:00:06 PM
The point is simple, really. The BB's all tried to pick up the slack in mid-68 when Brian had his actual breakdown. 20/20 sets the tone and pace for that, as the LPs take on a group aspect. SUNFLOWER continues that, though Brian and Dennis are more prominent there. SURF'S UP was some kind of battleground that is hard to completely tease out due to the range of stories told by the participants. Carl is the one who comes to the fore as a songwriter and as producer, bringing the sound into something more compatible with what was going on elsewhere at the time. CARL AND THE PASSIONS continued that, with Carl more as producer than as songwriter. B.E. overlooks "Mess of Help" and "Marcella," two standout tracks that show a completely different direction for Brian than what had been seen for more than half a decade (with oversight from Carl). It's an LP born out of the aftermath of strife and a set of personnel changes that followed in its wake--as a result, it's all over the map. Reiley and Carl pieced together a more cohesive version of SO TOUGH with HOLLAND, thanks equally to that odd piano they found in Holland, better songs from Dennis, Carl's best track ("The Trader"), and WB's intervention to get "Sail On Sailor" on the LP in place of "We Got Love." Al and Mike peaked here as they passed through their "hippie" phases in that mythically strange year of 1972.

I would expect that Jack was exhausted by the relentless politics that were part of the BBs operation, and he had his own personal reasons for wanting out--which has to color at least a portion of what he wrote in retrospect and explains some of the tone. He created various forms of upheaval in the band, some of it very positive in the short term, and some of which came back to bite him and Carl (who was his most prominent ally). When he left, Carl probably felt abandoned, and his attempts to shore up the band, be Brian's surrogate and deal with the impossible, strangling myth that encompassed the BBs were too complex to keep doing without some kind of collapse of his own. A year later ENDLESS SUMMER was a game-changer, and the BBs were huge again, but for reasons that in no way could support the approach they'd taken in 1968-73. And so it goes...


Title: Re: Recent thoughts on Jack Rieley by the Beach Boys?
Post by: guitarfool2002 on September 21, 2018, 10:28:13 AM
Don: I agree with a lot of that. However, I'd suggest reading that 1976 Dennis interview which I posted above, where Dennis suggests it was the band's dedicated touring which built up (or rebuilt?) the band's stature rather than "Endless Summer" being the cure-all that healed the band's ills.

If Dennis' comments sound accurate, then that was Jack's influence and plans coming to fruition in terms of getting the band shaped up into a touring outfit which would play shows along the lines of rock fans' tastes in 1972 and tour in order to build up a new audience more in tune with FM radio than matching suits.

I think Jack may have seen that the appeal of both Dennis and Carl in terms of music and outlook was more in tune with the FM radio/rock concert audience.

One thing that cannot be debated, whether it's due to Dennis' reasons or not, is that Jack's plans seemed to be working as they unfolded even after he left and Guercio got involved.

The band was selling albums in the US in numbers (top 30, top 40, top 50) with Surf's Up and subsequent releases which they had not sold since 1967.


Title: Re: Recent thoughts on Jack Rieley by the Beach Boys?
Post by: Magic Transistor Radio on September 22, 2018, 08:55:28 AM
I pride myself in being a truth seeker. Something that I realize is that the truth is not always what I want it to be. If you can't tell by my profile name, I love the Jack Rieley era! I think that that along with 65-67, were the artistic heights of the bands career, and 68-70 as well as Love You were not far behind. However, I recall a quote by Carl criticizing Jack Rieley or someone for not listening to all sides. While Carl leaned toward the artistic side, he also respected all voices in the group when he was a leader. He may have faught for Mike and Al's songs to be included on Surfs Up-Holland. Perhaps that had something to do with his fight with Dennis.  

As for the audience shouting for the hits during the newer songs, I will say that I wasn't born until 1977. I have just read things. But my guess is that increased in 1974 after Jack Rieley left and Endless Summer came out. When it went platinum,  it is obvious to me that the majority of fans wanted the hits. Personally,  I believe it was the worst thing to happen to them artistically. They were building something great. Holland showed hints of where they might go next. I feel that Pacific Ocean Blue was the next step.

Also, as a truth seeker,  I try to understand all people's perspective. Personally,  I hate the 80s and 90s Beach Boys for the most part. But let's try and look at this objectively here. In the late 70s, all 3 Wilson brothers were in a bad place. None of them were capable of leading the band at that point. I'm sure Mike worried about the future of the band. I didn't see him fighting for power in 1973 for example. He actually says good things about that era to this very day! He says he liked Blondie, Ricky and Jack Rieley.  He always has good things to say about Carl. He seemed to support Brian's leadership for a time in the mid 70s, but probably realized that Brian was slipping away again. Al voted with Mike because he saw the same thing
 Brian became less interested and sold his vote to Mike. Perhaps I wish he sold it to Carl, but he was also in a bad place at the time. Carl cleaned up and decided to do his own thing. When he returned, he was more interested in being a moderator than a leader. Think about it this way, there were wives and children depending on them. Carl was probably more concerned with the business side than artistic side at this point.

To me, it seems the Beach Boys have been cursed to being a fun in the sun oldies act. I hate this fact, but think about it. Brian was working on Smile and had a nervous breakdown. The following albums were great, but not commercially accessible. In 74 after Holland, Endless Summer came out and went Platinum. They were fighting their own fans at that point! As Carl said in the 1980 tv interview, they fought their old image for years, but realized that's what the fans wanted.

I don't agree with Mike on several things,  but I also don't think he is pure evil, or as egotistical as some might state. He has a sense of humor that some take too seriously I think. I get the sense that his 'scars' was a metaphor. I am sure that he believed that if he didn't take over the Beach Boys in 78-79, they would have collapsed.  And he is probably right! While people blame Mike for the cheesiness of that period,  I must point out that many 60s bands were cheesy in the 80s. As were many 80s bands! Lol! I think Al was embarrassed about the direction they were going and hoped Carl would come back and save it. But I think Carl was more interested in holding things together at that point. He may have
 backed up Mike as the leader, but also faught to keep Al around. Bruce probably just made a business decision to be Mike's biggest supporter in 1998 to keep his job.



Title: Re: Recent thoughts on Jack Rieley by the Beach Boys?
Post by: guitarfool2002 on September 25, 2018, 09:59:10 AM
I pride myself in being a truth seeker. Something that I realize is that the truth is not always what I want it to be. If you can't tell by my profile name, I love the Jack Rieley era! I think that that along with 65-67, were the artistic heights of the bands career, and 68-70 as well as Love You were not far behind. However, I recall a quote by Carl criticizing Jack Rieley or someone for not listening to all sides. While Carl leaned toward the artistic side, he also respected all voices in the group when he was a leader. He may have faught for Mike and Al's songs to be included on Surfs Up-Holland. Perhaps that had something to do with his fight with Dennis.  

As for the audience shouting for the hits during the newer songs, I will say that I wasn't born until 1977. I have just read things. But my guess is that increased in 1974 after Jack Rieley left and Endless Summer came out. When it went platinum,  it is obvious to me that the majority of fans wanted the hits. Personally,  I believe it was the worst thing to happen to them artistically. They were building something great. Holland showed hints of where they might go next. I feel that Pacific Ocean Blue was the next step.

Also, as a truth seeker,  I try to understand all people's perspective. Personally,  I hate the 80s and 90s Beach Boys for the most part. But let's try and look at this objectively here. In the late 70s, all 3 Wilson brothers were in a bad place. None of them were capable of leading the band at that point. I'm sure Mike worried about the future of the band. I didn't see him fighting for power in 1973 for example. He actually says good things about that era to this very day! He says he liked Blondie, Ricky and Jack Rieley.  He always has good things to say about Carl. He seemed to support Brian's leadership for a time in the mid 70s, but probably realized that Brian was slipping away again. Al voted with Mike because he saw the same thing
 Brian became less interested and sold his vote to Mike. Perhaps I wish he sold it to Carl, but he was also in a bad place at the time. Carl cleaned up and decided to do his own thing. When he returned, he was more interested in being a moderator than a leader. Think about it this way, there were wives and children depending on them. Carl was probably more concerned with the business side than artistic side at this point.

To me, it seems the Beach Boys have been cursed to being a fun in the sun oldies act. I hate this fact, but think about it. Brian was working on Smile and had a nervous breakdown. The following albums were great, but not commercially accessible. In 74 after Holland, Endless Summer came out and went Platinum. They were fighting their own fans at that point! As Carl said in the 1980 tv interview, they fought their old image for years, but realized that's what the fans wanted.

I don't agree with Mike on several things,  but I also don't think he is pure evil, or as egotistical as some might state. He has a sense of humor that some take too seriously I think. I get the sense that his 'scars' was a metaphor. I am sure that he believed that if he didn't take over the Beach Boys in 78-79, they would have collapsed.  And he is probably right! While people blame Mike for the cheesiness of that period,  I must point out that many 60s bands were cheesy in the 80s. As were many 80s bands! Lol! I think Al was embarrassed about the direction they were going and hoped Carl would come back and save it. But I think Carl was more interested in holding things together at that point. He may have
 backed up Mike as the leader, but also faught to keep Al around. Bruce probably just made a business decision to be Mike's biggest supporter in 1998 to keep his job.



What stands out is how both Endless Summer and Kokomo, the two items which brought the band their most commercial success in the 70's and the 80's respectively, were more or less flukes that connected at that specific time to wider audiences due as much to what was surrounding their releases in pop culture and good old fashioned timing. ES was Capitol deciding to mine the back catalog for "Greatest Hits vol. 3" and releasing it when the country was hungry for nostalgia, and Kokomo was placed on a soundtrack of a blockbuster Tom Cruise fluff film. Neither could have been planned out any more than the Beatles hitting American audiences not much more than a month after the JFK assassination and subsequent national shock and mourning period which left a void in the teen generation which the Beatles happened to be there to fill.

Again, consider what Dennis said in '76 about the band's touring and live shows being as much of a catalyst for their revival as the Endless Summer fluke.

What also stands out is the band's history in the 70's and beyond. I know some will refute anything that Jack Rieley said, but consider if his account of Mike declaring "I am the Beach Boys!" during an angry exchange was exactly what happened. There is the dynamic of a band member who wanted desperately to be thought of as the leader of this band entering the mix. What you'll see is several people brought in to manage or work behind the scenes in management or financial roles eventually being accused of some manner of wrongdoing or malfeasance, and being unceremoniously dumped or simply choosing to leave. When this included Mike's own brother, you see how bizarre it all must have been.

Then fast forward to when Al Jardine got fired from the band - led by Mike - it's even more surreal yet it falls into line with what appeared to be a decades-old power grab. I think Carl simply checked out after a certain point. Dennis definitely did. Brian did years earlier. The notions of a normal working band just came and went in cycles, as did the notion of keeping a manager of any kind without eventually accusing them of wrongdoing.

Look for the common threads in all of the history and they will become visible.


Title: Re: Recent thoughts on Jack Rieley by the Beach Boys?
Post by: Magic Transistor Radio on September 25, 2018, 07:31:12 PM
I pride myself in being a truth seeker. Something that I realize is that the truth is not always what I want it to be. If you can't tell by my profile name, I love the Jack Rieley era! I think that that along with 65-67, were the artistic heights of the bands career, and 68-70 as well as Love You were not far behind. However, I recall a quote by Carl criticizing Jack Rieley or someone for not listening to all sides. While Carl leaned toward the artistic side, he also respected all voices in the group when he was a leader. He may have faught for Mike and Al's songs to be included on Surfs Up-Holland. Perhaps that had something to do with his fight with Dennis. 

As for the audience shouting for the hits during the newer songs, I will say that I wasn't born until 1977. I have just read things. But my guess is that increased in 1974 after Jack Rieley left and Endless Summer came out. When it went platinum,  it is obvious to me that the majority of fans wanted the hits. Personally,  I believe it was the worst thing to happen to them artistically. They were building something great. Holland showed hints of where they might go next. I feel that Pacific Ocean Blue was the next step.

Also, as a truth seeker,  I try to understand all people's perspective. Personally,  I hate the 80s and 90s Beach Boys for the most part. But let's try and look at this objectively here. In the late 70s, all 3 Wilson brothers were in a bad place. None of them were capable of leading the band at that point. I'm sure Mike worried about the future of the band. I didn't see him fighting for power in 1973 for example. He actually says good things about that era to this very day! He says he liked Blondie, Ricky and Jack Rieley.  He always has good things to say about Carl. He seemed to support Brian's leadership for a time in the mid 70s, but probably realized that Brian was slipping away again. Al voted with Mike because he saw the same thing
 Brian became less interested and sold his vote to Mike. Perhaps I wish he sold it to Carl, but he was also in a bad place at the time. Carl cleaned up and decided to do his own thing. When he returned, he was more interested in being a moderator than a leader. Think about it this way, there were wives and children depending on them. Carl was probably more concerned with the business side than artistic side at this point.

To me, it seems the Beach Boys have been cursed to being a fun in the sun oldies act. I hate this fact, but think about it. Brian was working on Smile and had a nervous breakdown. The following albums were great, but not commercially accessible. In 74 after Holland, Endless Summer came out and went Platinum. They were fighting their own fans at that point! As Carl said in the 1980 tv interview, they fought their old image for years, but realized that's what the fans wanted.

I don't agree with Mike on several things,  but I also don't think he is pure evil, or as egotistical as some might state. He has a sense of humor that some take too seriously I think. I get the sense that his 'scars' was a metaphor. I am sure that he believed that if he didn't take over the Beach Boys in 78-79, they would have collapsed.  And he is probably right! While people blame Mike for the cheesiness of that period,  I must point out that many 60s bands were cheesy in the 80s. As were many 80s bands! Lol! I think Al was embarrassed about the direction they were going and hoped Carl would come back and save it. But I think Carl was more interested in holding things together at that point. He may have
 backed up Mike as the leader, but also faught to keep Al around. Bruce probably just made a business decision to be Mike's biggest supporter in 1998 to keep his job.



What stands out is how both Endless Summer and Kokomo, the two items which brought the band their most commercial success in the 70's and the 80's respectively, were more or less flukes that connected at that specific time to wider audiences due as much to what was surrounding their releases in pop culture and good old fashioned timing. ES was Capitol deciding to mine the back catalog for "Greatest Hits vol. 3" and releasing it when the country was hungry for nostalgia, and Kokomo was placed on a soundtrack of a blockbuster Tom Cruise fluff film. Neither could have been planned out any more than the Beatles hitting American audiences not much more than a month after the JFK assassination and subsequent national shock and mourning period which left a void in the teen generation which the Beatles happened to be there to fill.

Again, consider what Dennis said in '76 about the band's touring and live shows being as much of a catalyst for their revival as the Endless Summer fluke.

What also stands out is the band's history in the 70's and beyond. I know some will refute anything that Jack Rieley said, but consider if his account of Mike declaring "I am the Beach Boys!" during an angry exchange was exactly what happened. There is the dynamic of a band member who wanted desperately to be thought of as the leader of this band entering the mix. What you'll see is several people brought in to manage or work behind the scenes in management or financial roles eventually being accused of some manner of wrongdoing or malfeasance, and being unceremoniously dumped or simply choosing to leave. When this included Mike's own brother, you see how bizarre it all must have been.

Then fast forward to when Al Jardine got fired from the band - led by Mike - it's even more surreal yet it falls into line with what appeared to be a decades-old power grab. I think Carl simply checked out after a certain point. Dennis definitely did. Brian did years earlier. The notions of a normal working band just came and went in cycles, as did the notion of keeping a manager of any kind without eventually accusing them of wrongdoing.

Look for the common threads in all of the history and they will become visible.

Mike has been accused of saying things he has denied saying,  such as "don't f$%k with the formula'. So I am not convinced that he said that he is the Beach Boys. Maybe he did. I know he said in the Endless Harmony documentary that his positivity is why the band meant so much to so many people vs Brian's melancholy.  So it isn't far fetched. I agree that the Beach Boys had been building something great from 69-73 that was over shadowed by their past. I am curious if there was no Endless Summer if they would have continued to progress or if things were falling apart politically in the band as Rieley hints at. Ricky and Blondie have stated that they didn't see any of that while they were there. As for Mike taking control,  I really don't think that happened until Brian sold his vote to Mike in 78 or 79?? That was a period when all 3 Wilson brothers were in a bad place. And by 1981 or 82, there were many concerts without any of the Wilsons. When Carl came back from his solo career. Dennis was at the end, Brian was under Landy and Carl seemed uninterested in fighting and just went along with it. I really think that Mike felt it was necessary at that point. I agree he was the least talented,  but had the strongest head on his shoulders at the time. I wish Carl had more pride, but he had given up control in 74. When Brian was ready to return in the 90s, even Carl voted against Brian's songs. Perhaps they were worried that he couldn't handle it. I am curious as to what Carl would think today about Brian's solo career and if he would have wanted the reunion to be permanent.  Wouldn't that be cool if That Lucky Old Sun was the same, but with Beach Boys singing on it? Or Reimagines Gershwin? Who knows? Or would they have never happened? Or if Dennis survived in the 80s and recovered, how would that effect things? It is difficult to know, and a sad story. But I thing the albums in the 70s and 80s would have been much better,  if it weren't for the Wilson's drug addictions.  I will agree with Mike on that. I bet that he would rather have all 3 guys healthy and not have the power. I have seen him cry in interviews because of how it has effected Brian and that Dennis is no longer with us.


Title: Re: Recent thoughts on Jack Rieley by the Beach Boys?
Post by: The LEGENDARY OSD on September 25, 2018, 09:01:27 PM


Don't let those fake Mike Love tears pull you in. He's laughing all the way to the bank thanks to his talented cousins.



Title: Re: Recent thoughts on Jack Rieley by the Beach Boys?
Post by: Pretty Funky on September 26, 2018, 12:08:42 AM
Oh I think they are real. It’s just he has more issues going on and is handling none of them well. Just my unqualified opinion.


Title: Re: Recent thoughts on Jack Rieley by the Beach Boys?
Post by: Jay on September 26, 2018, 12:37:20 AM
Oh I think they are real. It’s just he has more issues going on and is handling none of them well. Just my unqualified opinion.
I agree. In a weird way, Mike might be more mentally unhealthy than Brian.


Title: Re: Recent thoughts on Jack Rieley by the Beach Boys?
Post by: Magic Transistor Radio on September 26, 2018, 06:41:11 AM


Don't let those fake Mike Love tears pull you in. He's laughing all the way to the bank thanks to his talented cousins.



 I suppose anyone that thinks Mike is pure evil won't believe there is a genuine bone in his body. How can either of us know what's in his heart? You might say his actions,  but I understand why he did it. If he didn't,  I bet the Beach Boys would have broken up in 78. Which might not have been a bad thing.


Title: Re: Recent thoughts on Jack Rieley by the Beach Boys?
Post by: The LEGENDARY OSD on September 26, 2018, 08:06:13 AM


Don't let those fake Mike Love tears pull you in. He's laughing all the way to the bank thanks to his talented cousins.



 I suppose anyone that thinks Mike is pure evil won't believe there is a genuine bone in his body. How can either of us know what's in his heart? You might say his actions,  but I understand why he did it. If he didn't,  I bet the Beach Boys would have broken up in 78. Which might not have been a bad thing.

You're doggone correct, MTR. They should have disbanded before Larry(Stamos), Curly(Mike), and Moe(Bruce) got ahold of the license and shredded the BB legacy with their shenanigans. "Do It Again" anyone? Oh most definitely, FP, Mike's mind is as fubar as it gets. As far as his heart goes, if you open him up, you won't find one but instead find a safe deposit box. It's difficult to think of a more mercenary individual than Mike Love.


Title: Re: Recent thoughts on Jack Rieley by the Beach Boys?
Post by: guitarfool2002 on September 26, 2018, 11:37:37 AM
I pride myself in being a truth seeker. Something that I realize is that the truth is not always what I want it to be. If you can't tell by my profile name, I love the Jack Rieley era! I think that that along with 65-67, were the artistic heights of the bands career, and 68-70 as well as Love You were not far behind. However, I recall a quote by Carl criticizing Jack Rieley or someone for not listening to all sides. While Carl leaned toward the artistic side, he also respected all voices in the group when he was a leader. He may have faught for Mike and Al's songs to be included on Surfs Up-Holland. Perhaps that had something to do with his fight with Dennis. 

As for the audience shouting for the hits during the newer songs, I will say that I wasn't born until 1977. I have just read things. But my guess is that increased in 1974 after Jack Rieley left and Endless Summer came out. When it went platinum,  it is obvious to me that the majority of fans wanted the hits. Personally,  I believe it was the worst thing to happen to them artistically. They were building something great. Holland showed hints of where they might go next. I feel that Pacific Ocean Blue was the next step.

Also, as a truth seeker,  I try to understand all people's perspective. Personally,  I hate the 80s and 90s Beach Boys for the most part. But let's try and look at this objectively here. In the late 70s, all 3 Wilson brothers were in a bad place. None of them were capable of leading the band at that point. I'm sure Mike worried about the future of the band. I didn't see him fighting for power in 1973 for example. He actually says good things about that era to this very day! He says he liked Blondie, Ricky and Jack Rieley.  He always has good things to say about Carl. He seemed to support Brian's leadership for a time in the mid 70s, but probably realized that Brian was slipping away again. Al voted with Mike because he saw the same thing
 Brian became less interested and sold his vote to Mike. Perhaps I wish he sold it to Carl, but he was also in a bad place at the time. Carl cleaned up and decided to do his own thing. When he returned, he was more interested in being a moderator than a leader. Think about it this way, there were wives and children depending on them. Carl was probably more concerned with the business side than artistic side at this point.

To me, it seems the Beach Boys have been cursed to being a fun in the sun oldies act. I hate this fact, but think about it. Brian was working on Smile and had a nervous breakdown. The following albums were great, but not commercially accessible. In 74 after Holland, Endless Summer came out and went Platinum. They were fighting their own fans at that point! As Carl said in the 1980 tv interview, they fought their old image for years, but realized that's what the fans wanted.

I don't agree with Mike on several things,  but I also don't think he is pure evil, or as egotistical as some might state. He has a sense of humor that some take too seriously I think. I get the sense that his 'scars' was a metaphor. I am sure that he believed that if he didn't take over the Beach Boys in 78-79, they would have collapsed.  And he is probably right! While people blame Mike for the cheesiness of that period,  I must point out that many 60s bands were cheesy in the 80s. As were many 80s bands! Lol! I think Al was embarrassed about the direction they were going and hoped Carl would come back and save it. But I think Carl was more interested in holding things together at that point. He may have
 backed up Mike as the leader, but also faught to keep Al around. Bruce probably just made a business decision to be Mike's biggest supporter in 1998 to keep his job.



What stands out is how both Endless Summer and Kokomo, the two items which brought the band their most commercial success in the 70's and the 80's respectively, were more or less flukes that connected at that specific time to wider audiences due as much to what was surrounding their releases in pop culture and good old fashioned timing. ES was Capitol deciding to mine the back catalog for "Greatest Hits vol. 3" and releasing it when the country was hungry for nostalgia, and Kokomo was placed on a soundtrack of a blockbuster Tom Cruise fluff film. Neither could have been planned out any more than the Beatles hitting American audiences not much more than a month after the JFK assassination and subsequent national shock and mourning period which left a void in the teen generation which the Beatles happened to be there to fill.

Again, consider what Dennis said in '76 about the band's touring and live shows being as much of a catalyst for their revival as the Endless Summer fluke.

What also stands out is the band's history in the 70's and beyond. I know some will refute anything that Jack Rieley said, but consider if his account of Mike declaring "I am the Beach Boys!" during an angry exchange was exactly what happened. There is the dynamic of a band member who wanted desperately to be thought of as the leader of this band entering the mix. What you'll see is several people brought in to manage or work behind the scenes in management or financial roles eventually being accused of some manner of wrongdoing or malfeasance, and being unceremoniously dumped or simply choosing to leave. When this included Mike's own brother, you see how bizarre it all must have been.

Then fast forward to when Al Jardine got fired from the band - led by Mike - it's even more surreal yet it falls into line with what appeared to be a decades-old power grab. I think Carl simply checked out after a certain point. Dennis definitely did. Brian did years earlier. The notions of a normal working band just came and went in cycles, as did the notion of keeping a manager of any kind without eventually accusing them of wrongdoing.

Look for the common threads in all of the history and they will become visible.

Mike has been accused of saying things he has denied saying,  such as "don't f$%k with the formula'. So I am not convinced that he said that he is the Beach Boys. Maybe he did. I know he said in the Endless Harmony documentary that his positivity is why the band meant so much to so many people vs Brian's melancholy.  So it isn't far fetched. I agree that the Beach Boys had been building something great from 69-73 that was over shadowed by their past. I am curious if there was no Endless Summer if they would have continued to progress or if things were falling apart politically in the band as Rieley hints at. Ricky and Blondie have stated that they didn't see any of that while they were there. As for Mike taking control,  I really don't think that happened until Brian sold his vote to Mike in 78 or 79?? That was a period when all 3 Wilson brothers were in a bad place. And by 1981 or 82, there were many concerts without any of the Wilsons. When Carl came back from his solo career. Dennis was at the end, Brian was under Landy and Carl seemed uninterested in fighting and just went along with it. I really think that Mike felt it was necessary at that point. I agree he was the least talented,  but had the strongest head on his shoulders at the time. I wish Carl had more pride, but he had given up control in 74. When Brian was ready to return in the 90s, even Carl voted against Brian's songs. Perhaps they were worried that he couldn't handle it. I am curious as to what Carl would think today about Brian's solo career and if he would have wanted the reunion to be permanent.  Wouldn't that be cool if That Lucky Old Sun was the same, but with Beach Boys singing on it? Or Reimagines Gershwin? Who knows? Or would they have never happened? Or if Dennis survived in the 80s and recovered, how would that effect things? It is difficult to know, and a sad story. But I thing the albums in the 70s and 80s would have been much better,  if it weren't for the Wilson's drug addictions.  I will agree with Mike on that. I bet that he would rather have all 3 guys healthy and not have the power. I have seen him cry in interviews because of how it has effected Brian and that Dennis is no longer with us.

I'd just like to point out that some who may be described by certain others as an "impeccable source" have said matter-of-factly that Mike thinks he is the Beach Boys. The notion did not come out of thin air, and it has been talked about previously. With that in mind, such a scene as Rieley described Mike himself saying essentially the same thing back in '72 or so becomes more plausible, and the possibility that what Jack reported is essentially what happened becomes more believable when put into context.

I'm curious to ask, and granted I may just be overlooking something I've read as well, what is the source of info that said Brian "sold" his vote to Mike? To the best of my memory, the only BRI member whose vote was sold was Dennis, done after the fact to pay off debts (IIRC). If Brian did in fact sell his BRI member vote to Mike at some point, he obviously bought it back because the current BRI votes are Brian, Al, Mike, and Carl's sons...and that has been the setup for several decades.


Title: Re: Recent thoughts on Jack Rieley by the Beach Boys?
Post by: c-man on September 26, 2018, 11:59:15 AM
Most insiders seem to agree that, despite some clear "shadiness" on a personal level, Rieley's work with the Boys bore very positive results, results that might not have been achieved otherwise. Reading through pages 142-152 of the David Leaf book, we see comments like "Supposedly, Rieley would create dissension within the ranks by talking behind peoples' backs, and then establish himself as the one central figure they could all 'trust'", "...Rieley had never worked for NBC, won the Pulitzer Prize, or done anything else he'd claimed. His actual background allegedly showed a lack of stability", and "One humorous note...is that Brian and Jack's friendship only lasted a few weeks before  Brian got bored with Jack", quoting Ben Edmonds as saying, "Even when the rest of them were apparently fooled...Brian really knew what was going on. Brian made up a little song called 'Is Jack Rieley Really Superman?'".  But Leaf then goes on to write that Jack "was still making the right career moves even if his intentions weren't pure."  Later, Leaf writes, "Despite all the claims that Rieley took advantage of the group, his contribution should never be underestimated", and quotes Ben Edmonds again as saying, "As much of a liar and a possible crook, or whatever Jack Rieley might have been, he was also responsible for bringing the Beach Boys back out of obscurity, something that they could never have done themselves...There are probably a lot of negative things that people have to say about Jack Rieley, my own included, but you also have to give him credit where credit is due...He made a place for the Beach Boys again, and you can't take that away from him."  

Recognition of Jack's contributions among the band members certainly extended to the creative side, as well. Bruce Johnston - probably Jack's most vocal and consistent critic on a personal trustworthiness level - admitted in an interview with Brad Elliott a decade later that he never had a problem with Jack's lyrics, and actually thought they were "really great". And Mike, who according to his autobiography liked Reiley, would regularly praise the Carl-Rieley composition "The Trader" as one of his favorites.


Title: Re: Recent thoughts on Jack Rieley by the Beach Boys?
Post by: Magic Transistor Radio on September 28, 2018, 05:50:45 AM
I pride myself in being a truth seeker. Something that I realize is that the truth is not always what I want it to be. If you can't tell by my profile name, I love the Jack Rieley era! I think that that along with 65-67, were the artistic heights of the bands career, and 68-70 as well as Love You were not far behind. However, I recall a quote by Carl criticizing Jack Rieley or someone for not listening to all sides. While Carl leaned toward the artistic side, he also respected all voices in the group when he was a leader. He may have faught for Mike and Al's songs to be included on Surfs Up-Holland. Perhaps that had something to do with his fight with Dennis. 

As for the audience shouting for the hits during the newer songs, I will say that I wasn't born until 1977. I have just read things. But my guess is that increased in 1974 after Jack Rieley left and Endless Summer came out. When it went platinum,  it is obvious to me that the majority of fans wanted the hits. Personally,  I believe it was the worst thing to happen to them artistically. They were building something great. Holland showed hints of where they might go next. I feel that Pacific Ocean Blue was the next step.

Also, as a truth seeker,  I try to understand all people's perspective. Personally,  I hate the 80s and 90s Beach Boys for the most part. But let's try and look at this objectively here. In the late 70s, all 3 Wilson brothers were in a bad place. None of them were capable of leading the band at that point. I'm sure Mike worried about the future of the band. I didn't see him fighting for power in 1973 for example. He actually says good things about that era to this very day! He says he liked Blondie, Ricky and Jack Rieley.  He always has good things to say about Carl. He seemed to support Brian's leadership for a time in the mid 70s, but probably realized that Brian was slipping away again. Al voted with Mike because he saw the same thing
 Brian became less interested and sold his vote to Mike. Perhaps I wish he sold it to Carl, but he was also in a bad place at the time. Carl cleaned up and decided to do his own thing. When he returned, he was more interested in being a moderator than a leader. Think about it this way, there were wives and children depending on them. Carl was probably more concerned with the business side than artistic side at this point.

To me, it seems the Beach Boys have been cursed to being a fun in the sun oldies act. I hate this fact, but think about it. Brian was working on Smile and had a nervous breakdown. The following albums were great, but not commercially accessible. In 74 after Holland, Endless Summer came out and went Platinum. They were fighting their own fans at that point! As Carl said in the 1980 tv interview, they fought their old image for years, but realized that's what the fans wanted.

I don't agree with Mike on several things,  but I also don't think he is pure evil, or as egotistical as some might state. He has a sense of humor that some take too seriously I think. I get the sense that his 'scars' was a metaphor. I am sure that he believed that if he didn't take over the Beach Boys in 78-79, they would have collapsed.  And he is probably right! While people blame Mike for the cheesiness of that period,  I must point out that many 60s bands were cheesy in the 80s. As were many 80s bands! Lol! I think Al was embarrassed about the direction they were going and hoped Carl would come back and save it. But I think Carl was more interested in holding things together at that point. He may have
 backed up Mike as the leader, but also faught to keep Al around. Bruce probably just made a business decision to be Mike's biggest supporter in 1998 to keep his job.



What stands out is how both Endless Summer and Kokomo, the two items which brought the band their most commercial success in the 70's and the 80's respectively, were more or less flukes that connected at that specific time to wider audiences due as much to what was surrounding their releases in pop culture and good old fashioned timing. ES was Capitol deciding to mine the back catalog for "Greatest Hits vol. 3" and releasing it when the country was hungry for nostalgia, and Kokomo was placed on a soundtrack of a blockbuster Tom Cruise fluff film. Neither could have been planned out any more than the Beatles hitting American audiences not much more than a month after the JFK assassination and subsequent national shock and mourning period which left a void in the teen generation which the Beatles happened to be there to fill.

Again, consider what Dennis said in '76 about the band's touring and live shows being as much of a catalyst for their revival as the Endless Summer fluke.

What also stands out is the band's history in the 70's and beyond. I know some will refute anything that Jack Rieley said, but consider if his account of Mike declaring "I am the Beach Boys!" during an angry exchange was exactly what happened. There is the dynamic of a band member who wanted desperately to be thought of as the leader of this band entering the mix. What you'll see is several people brought in to manage or work behind the scenes in management or financial roles eventually being accused of some manner of wrongdoing or malfeasance, and being unceremoniously dumped or simply choosing to leave. When this included Mike's own brother, you see how bizarre it all must have been.

Then fast forward to when Al Jardine got fired from the band - led by Mike - it's even more surreal yet it falls into line with what appeared to be a decades-old power grab. I think Carl simply checked out after a certain point. Dennis definitely did. Brian did years earlier. The notions of a normal working band just came and went in cycles, as did the notion of keeping a manager of any kind without eventually accusing them of wrongdoing.

Look for the common threads in all of the history and they will become visible.

Mike has been accused of saying things he has denied saying,  such as "don't f$%k with the formula'. So I am not convinced that he said that he is the Beach Boys. Maybe he did. I know he said in the Endless Harmony documentary that his positivity is why the band meant so much to so many people vs Brian's melancholy.  So it isn't far fetched. I agree that the Beach Boys had been building something great from 69-73 that was over shadowed by their past. I am curious if there was no Endless Summer if they would have continued to progress or if things were falling apart politically in the band as Rieley hints at. Ricky and Blondie have stated that they didn't see any of that while they were there. As for Mike taking control,  I really don't think that happened until Brian sold his vote to Mike in 78 or 79?? That was a period when all 3 Wilson brothers were in a bad place. And by 1981 or 82, there were many concerts without any of the Wilsons. When Carl came back from his solo career. Dennis was at the end, Brian was under Landy and Carl seemed uninterested in fighting and just went along with it. I really think that Mike felt it was necessary at that point. I agree he was the least talented,  but had the strongest head on his shoulders at the time. I wish Carl had more pride, but he had given up control in 74. When Brian was ready to return in the 90s, even Carl voted against Brian's songs. Perhaps they were worried that he couldn't handle it. I am curious as to what Carl would think today about Brian's solo career and if he would have wanted the reunion to be permanent.  Wouldn't that be cool if That Lucky Old Sun was the same, but with Beach Boys singing on it? Or Reimagines Gershwin? Who knows? Or would they have never happened? Or if Dennis survived in the 80s and recovered, how would that effect things? It is difficult to know, and a sad story. But I thing the albums in the 70s and 80s would have been much better,  if it weren't for the Wilson's drug addictions.  I will agree with Mike on that. I bet that he would rather have all 3 guys healthy and not have the power. I have seen him cry in interviews because of how it has effected Brian and that Dennis is no longer with us.

I'd just like to point out that some who may be described by certain others as an "impeccable source" have said matter-of-factly that Mike thinks he is the Beach Boys. The notion did not come out of thin air, and it has been talked about previously. With that in mind, such a scene as Rieley described Mike himself saying essentially the same thing back in '72 or so becomes more plausible, and the possibility that what Jack reported is essentially what happened becomes more believable when put into context.

I'm curious to ask, and granted I may just be overlooking something I've read as well, what is the source of info that said Brian "sold" his vote to Mike? To the best of my memory, the only BRI member whose vote was sold was Dennis, done after the fact to pay off debts (IIRC). If Brian did in fact sell his BRI member vote to Mike at some point, he obviously bought it back because the current BRI votes are Brian, Al, Mike, and Carl's sons...and that has been the setup for several decades.

I can't recall exactly where I read that Brian sold or gave his vote to Mike. I think it was in John Stebbins book, The Real Beach Boy.  But I will have to find it. My memory was that it was around 78.