The Smiley Smile Message Board

"What if SMiLE had never been released" is one of the most famous BB-related memes, if not *the* most famous. Well, let's go one better. What if he had never met VDP at all? How different would his career have been?

Thoughts?

I'd like to hope that had Brian and VDP never met, we'd have still gotten some incarnation of Surf's Up, Heroes and Villains, Wonderful, Our Prayer, and Cabinessence.  The lyrics would obviously be different, maybe supplied by Tony Asher, Mike Love, or another different outside writer.  

Without a non released Smile album, the followup to Pet Sounds, I think, would've been completely different.  I doubt Smiley Smile would exist.  Instead, maybe we'd have gotten a more fitting (IMO) follow up to Pet Sounds.  Without a Smile concept to try to make the songs fit into, Brian may have been able to put an album together in 1967 that takes the best musical parts of Smile with different lyrics that might not necessarily be a full piece of work.  Maybe you'd get the songs I mentioned before plus Good Vibrations.  

Without the concept hanging over Brian's head, if he were to get the best musical parts of GV, H&V, Cabinessence, Surf's Up, Wonderful, and Our Prayer onto a 1967 album to follow up Pet Sounds, the Beach Boys career might not have been quite as derailed as it was with the non release of the anticipated Smile.  Maybe said album sells better than Smiley Smile did, and the US record buying public doesn't turn their back on the band, and is a little more accepting of The Beach Boys evolving sound.  

There's a possibility here that Wild Honey and Friends are still released in their mostly existing forms, but if there's a more successful followup to Pet Sounds, they sell more.  Maybe Capitol doesn't cut ties with the band at the end of the decade, the Boys make a more accepted transition to being an album band in the late 60s, into the 70s.  

And without the "Smile" songs making it onto 20/20 and Surf's Up, that might've opened up some room for the some of the great songs that got left off albums at the time.  

Also, if Capitol is getting good selling current BB albums, maybe they don't put together Endless Summer in 1974, and The Beach Boys never get transformed into a touring juke box, and don't try to copy themselves so much.    

Sorry, double post

Unthinkable.  If they'd never met, Smile would never have happened. Musical history would have been changed. Just think, Sgt Pepper would have been considered the defining album of all time. Inconceivable.

You're kind of thinking along the same lines as I was.  Of course, we can't possibly know, but  amazing how one chance encounter  can alter the course of history.

I think the followup to Pet Sounds might have been similar to Wild Honey, personally. I definitely think it would have been a case where they did move on from the pre-Pet Sounds sounds. One thing, though..without that massive hype that SMiLE had, would they have faded out sooner than they did? GV would've bought them some time, but Brian was writing in snippets at that point either way. So, would we have gotten something SMiLE-ish but with different lyrics/concept?

Brian had still outgrown Mike as a collaborator.  In place of Van, I believe that whoever the collaborator was, Mike would’ve found a way to have problems with it, out of fear of being replaced.   He would have dragged his feet, and exhibited all sorts of passive aggressive behavior. I have no doubt.

Brian wanted some sort of departure from the norm, and Mike would not have it. Especially if it meant the idea of Brian working with somebody else was possibly going to receive more critical adulation then the work Mike had done with Brian. EGO.

The question then becomes, would a different collaborator have stood up to Mike more than Van did?

And if he did, how would Mike have reacted? Would the band have split then, or fired Mike?

Under no circumstances with the band ever, ever have fired Mike. The family ties were too entrenched. The guilt trips were too perfectly executed.  This is evident because even when witnessing the tragic trajectory of the Wilson brothers, neither of them were ever actually permanently fired from the band. Not essentially until late 2012, at least.

I’d like to think, however, that if Mike acted badly enough, that he could’ve gotten a suspension, the way that Dennis and Brian both did at various times in later years. Maybe six months being barred from the band would have helped Mike’s behavior shape up, even if only for reasons of being afraid of permanently losing his place in the band. Fat chance, but would’ve been nice.

I think, like I alluded to, you might've gotten songs similar to many of the Smile songs, but with different lyrics.  But I think without trying so hard to piece everything together into one cohesive piece, it would've wound up being just a collection of songs.  I'd like GV and H&V would still be on that album.  

I don't think it was the hype of Smile that led to them fading (in the eyes of the record buying public anyway).   I think it had more to do with following the hype of Smile with the....I'll just use Carl's word "bunt" that was Smiley Smile.

Granted, without Smile, I think the fanbase shifts a lot.  You might not have some of the indie fans discovering Brian Wilson late in his career.  You certainly wouldn't have had music fans taking bootlegs and trying to figure out how the album would've sounded.  

Kind of a side point on the issue of how the BBs became a jukebox show in later years, I think it was inevitable to some degree, even if they *had* scored major hits later in the 70s or even the 80s.

Those early songs/hits were so great that they never would have abandoned them. There would have been various eras where those early hits saw renewed intensified interest. Had the BBs scored a few more legitimately hit albums in the 70s and 80s, the live show still would have had some surf and car songs.

If they had had some more hit singles in the 70s and 80s, those would have been integrated into the setlist (the same way "Kokomo" was in 1988). But if they had scored a hit album in, say, 1978, that never would have made them go back and do deep cuts regularly from 1969 or 1972 or whatever.

This confrontation wouldn't have happened.  Other than Do It Again, Mike pretty much stopped writing songs about cars and surfing in the late 60s / early 70s.   Maybe Good Vibrations gets the Brian / Mike team really going again.

I think if they continued to have hits into the 70s or 80s, their setlists would be somewhat like with The Rolling Stones do with a good mix of the 60s, 70s, and 80s. 

Just because Mike largely stopped writing songs about surfing and cars, that doesn’t mean he was happy about being sidelined as Brian‘s main collaborator. That would’ve still manifested in all sorts of icky behavior. Do you really doubt this?

I might not have ever become a fan then! Yikes that's a scary thought. Hell, I might not even be here today then. Double yikes.

Can't be certain.   If GV is a hit, and BW and VDP aren't trying to piece Smile together, whose to say that Brian and Mike don't start working more together? 

Bottom line is: Brian could never, and I mean never, write a Beach Boys album with a different main collaborator other than Mike, without Mike throwing some sort of hissy fit about it. It would not ever happen.  Mike made the band a very toxic place for his cousin.

What I'm saying is that Brian might not have gone to outside people without VDP. 

Like I said, if Asher were out of the picture, there's no Van Dyke, and GV becomes a huge hit, it would've led to more Brian / Mike songs in the late 60s / early 70s. 

Fair enough… But that said, if Brian still wanted to work with a different outside collaborator, don’t you think what I said is generally accurate?

Maybe if the songs sold, he wouldn't have cared as much. In the In Concert book written by Jon Stebbins and Ian Rusten, there are quite a few tidbits of Mike being angry/borderline hostile towards fans who weren't digging the newer material as much, and was also a bit derisive towards the older songs. I think Endless Summer is what turned him into what we know as "Mike Love", because that sold and was all BW/ML compositions.

Not counting the Redwood thing, of course.

And then there's the fact that minus SMiLE, Brian may not have pulled back at all, and maybe Mike might have been WORSE....who knows>

 I know there is some interview, I can’t recall when, but perhaps the early 1990s… Where Mike speaks about not liking Brian collaborating with other people as early as several years before Pet Sounds. It was then and will always remain a problem,  even if he grinned and beared it sometimes.

Edited my post...

It depends.  If the songs had mass appeal, and actually sold, I think it's possible Mike would be more on board.   I think with Van Dyke, Mike was more concerned that the lyrics were a little too out there for The Beach Boys than being shut out of the process.  

The issue with Mike and other "non-Mike-ish" content (for lack of something else to call it) was less about other writers taking Mike to task for writing "surf and car" songs, and more Mike having varying amounts of negativity towards downer/somber, etc. types of music. Someone calling "'Til I Die" too much of a downer is still apparently apocryphal to some degree, but Mike has gone on record taking issue with some of the lyrics to the song (in particular the line "it kills my soul").

Look at Mike's reaction to the ending suite on TWGMTR. 50 years into the band and he's the one who's taking issue with whatever he feels that "type" of music is.

Nobody was in the studio (whether Joe Thomas or Brian or anyone else) taking issue with the "retro" lyrics Mike was adding to the proceedings on that album.

I don't think the band was ever going to fire Mike for wanting to write certain types of stuff or not wanting to write other types of stuff. But the antagonism concerning the artistry involved in writing lyrics (and more generally the themes/tone of the lyrics) has usually seemed to emanate from Mike.

I also think Mike has a built-in impulse to criticize stuff he didn't co-write. Again, he has gone on record saying he wasn't enamored with Brian writing with outside writers. That admission (albeit limited in nature and scope) is to his credit.

To be fair, Mike probably also didn't like the fact that these outside writers managed to get songwriting credits while Mike didn't.  

I think Mike was always jealous that songs like In My Room and Don’t Worry Baby were among the most best loved songs that the band ever did. To many people, those are the signature songs by the band, far more than any collaboration that he worked on.  Mike is the guy who is trying to say that he should have written Pet Sounds, after all.  The idea that he would just passively allow somebody to have their way with Brian in a creative space is unthinkable to him.

 I think Mike feels some sort of sick “ownership“ and entitlement to writing with Brian because they are family, and because they had hits together in the early years. Outsiders would ALWAYS be on his sh*t list, especially because they could easily spot the toxic behavior he exhibited.  Mike could always better get away with that kind of stuff behind closed doors, and without pesky outsiders or spouses.

I think the weird eras where Mike was more open to non-hit material boils down to two things: He's more apt to be open-minded and liberal about lyrics and all of that when it's *his* idea, not done on someone else's terms. And two, the balance of power in the band in the early 70s was different, and Mike had little choice or alternative than to push whatever the band was doing at the time.

Here's another thought about potential BB without VDP / Smile. 

If the non release of Smile didn't derail the band, would they have felt the need to shake things up with the addition of Blondie and Ricky in the early 70s?   

Good point. Also, in the interest of fairness, it must be pointed out that the work he did from Wild Honey thru Holland was excellent.


That's definitely going to contribute. Of course, he might not have had 30+ years of bitterness due to that.

While his comments are always open to interpretation, Mike's 1992 Goldmine interview indicates to me that he was "not happy" about Brian working with outside collaborators, and was not happy due to the concept in general, as opposed to only being disgruntled about the separate songwriting/royalties issue he had with Brian. As he has in several cases, he points out he was relatively okay with Christian writing the detailed hot rod lyrics using terminology Mike was not familiar with. If anything, that exception he makes to Christian's lyrics implies to me that Mike felt other songwriting partners weren't adding anything that he (Mike) couldn't do. And Mike may not have been 100% wrong in that assertion. Not that he would have produced the same lyrics as others like Usher and Asher did, but he probably could have done lyrics on those songs too. But either way, he seems to admit, to some degree, that he was just across-the-board "not happy" with Brian going to other co-writers unless they were adding really specific terminology like Christian.

In that interview, he does relatively quickly conflate the issue with his songwriting lawsuit/gripe, but that has more to do simply with him being all hot and bothered about the impending songwriting lawsuit in that interview. He seems ready and willing to make anything and everything in that interview about his impending lawsuit.

Maybe not. Or...maybe they would have shaken things up sooner? And if Brian was more involved, would the rumored plan to sack Bruce actually have happened?

Please Let Me Wonder and She Knows Me Too Well bears that out, IMHO

Mike, while he did get screwed out of some credits unfairly, did have PLENTY of properly credited credits under his belt. A Mike who had been credited on all songs he actually wrote would still have been just as jealous of other writers.

He was always going to have a chip on his shoulder because he didn’t have as good a voice as the other guys, not as much hair, and wasn’t named Wilson. A perfect combination for narcissism to start brewing. I don’t think the crediting thing would’ve made a whole lot of difference in how he would have reacted to other writers.

If anything, history has shown that Mike, when he gains power, only acts even worse in exerting it. If Mike had properly received all credits all along, it would’ve just fed his giant ego even more.  It doesn’t make any logical sense that he would somehow be more laid-back and less threatened by other writers had he been properly credited.  I admit the crediting snafu manifested in all sorts of ugly ways, but I think the inherent passive aggressive behavior would have been there all along, it’s seemingly inate to his personality.

I think it boils down, in some cases, to needing to placate Mike. The thing is, though, that placating Mike in some cases doesn't just avoid his being annoyed/difficult, it sometimes sort of inadvertently motivates him to write good lyrics and get more in a slightly downbeat/somber Brian-ish frame of mind. He did indeed write great non-happy-go-lucky/surf/car lyrics for Brian.

This is one of the reasons why, as much as I've harped on Mike and his tearing down C50, I do sometimes wonder what would have happened, and if *anything* would have changed about the reunion and its future prospects, if Brian had just placated Mike and sat down and did some songs with him. Obviously, they should only be doing what is conducive to what they want to do musically.

There was a thread a few years ago where Howie Edelson and others dipped into it with some interesting ideas about how "Pet Sounds" would have played out with Mike lyrics, both in terms of how well Mike could have pulled some lyrics off, and what it would have done for future band fortunes/prospects if Brian had placated Mike and had him do the lyrics. It's all "what ifs" of course, but it was a compelling discussion/series of arguments.

And California Girls.   And, after Pet Sounds, Good Vibrations.  Those are two iconic sounds.  That's why I think maybe with VDP in the picture, Brian might be willing to let try try his hand at some lyrics for other musical ideas that wound up on Smile.  

 I completely agree that Mike could show some legit songwriting chops when he wanted to. The problem is, his pushy behavior was always going to be a thorn in Brian side. Brian should’ve been able to go to Mike when he wanted to go to Mike, not when Mike tried to guilt him into making sure he was the collaborator on the next project. That’s textbook toxic guilt trip nonsense 101.

Oh yeah, no doubt, was just using those two as progressive ballad examples

What if BW met Billy in 2017.... :hat

Without the non release of Smile, you might have a more confident Brian Wilson who pushes back if Mike gets pushy.  

I should say that I don't think that Van Dyke Parks coming into Brian's life was some sort of curse that hexed the band.  My made up scenario might make it seem that way.   But, I do think that Smile was a little more of an albatross than as asset, especially at the time.

Fair enough, and they're definitely good examples that Mike was likely more willing to move away from surf / car songs than what if sometimes believed......at least prior to Endless Summer. 

Possibly. However, a continually pushy bandmate is not something that Brian of all people should have had to deal with in his life.

Sometimes, I get the feeling you don't like Mike Love very much.

 ;D

Brian's lack of predilection for being confrontational or pushy had little to do with the non-appearance of "Smile." He was like that before "Smile."

I don't see a time, especially in the 60s, where Brian was literally going to get in Mike's grill in cases where Mike became confrontational about lyrics or other music/theme issues.

See the Redwood session story. Brian was guilted/told what to do and demurred not because Smile had failed, but because of his inherent nature and also because of all of the "family business" BS guilt stuff that always ran through the band.

The redwood story was a big white-wash in Mike’s book....

I wrote a quick alternate history if anyone is interested in reading it.

Brian keeps experiementing with LSD. After Pet Sounds, Brian reaches out to good friend Terry Melcher about finding an intellectual collaborator to help push The Beach Boys into a more hip circle of listeners.

In this timeline Van Dyke Parks either doesn’t exist or went on to pursue acting full time.

Thinking out loud, Terry Melcher suggests that Brian go to a Doors show at the Whiskey. Brian takes some acid and heads to the show. He is entranced by what he sees. He’s not impressed by the vocals but the lyrics are about crystal ships and how the West is the best. Post-show Brian is introduced to Jim backstage, he’s told that Jim is the mastermind behind the lyrics. Jim is bombed out of his tree on alcohol but he knows of Brian and digs his music. The two, though weird as hell, kinda hit it off.

“If you ever want to stop by and work on some music, here’s my number.” Brian tells Jim and hands Jim his business card. Keep in mind this is before The Doors are even signed. They know that they are a hit but Jim is frustrated that they have played the Whisky and other hip venues for months without much luck regarding a recording contract. So here comes Brian, rumors of The Beach Boys starting their own label are floating around Hollywood....”I’d be a fool not to go talk to the leader of one of the greatest bands on the planet.” Jim thinks. Also keep in mind that Jim was a fan of The Beach Boys.

A couple days later Jim shows up at Brian’s door. He’s greeted with the smell of fresh broiled steak dueling with the pot smoke wafting from the living room. Brian lights up upon seeing the scruffy but masculine looking Morrison, and they head to a couch where Brian offers Jim a joint. They talk about the music business and their own musical ideas.

Brian is blown away by how intellectual Morrison is. He is talking about Roman gods, Nietzsche, ancient philosophy. Brian suggests they both take some acid and then head to the piano. Though Jim is a man full of confidence he is also not sure what to think of Brian, he is intimidated by the fame of The Beach Boys, but Brian seems so full of childlike love of life. He can’t say no to writing a song on acid that won’t be remembered. They take the acid and both keep talking about life.

This is how Brian works. He did it with Asher with major success...sit on the couch, get high, and talk about what’s on your mind. It’s like stream of conscious thinking out loud. And with Jim Morrison it opened up an entire world of possibilities.

They head to the piano and both are high as kites yet Brian writes the music away on sheet music above the piano. They laugh and write into the evening. Nothing is said about an official collaboration, but they both know they’re onto something.

Although it has been on Brian’s mind, he doesn’t tell Jim of the wonderment he has with a cowboy and Indian song. He instead suggest they write a song about the rise of love in the West, the fall of Rome, and perhaps a song about a mystical girl and boy who innocently and wonderfully fall in love. Brian also tells Jim he wants to name his next album ‘Dumb Angel’. Jim is shocked that the leader of wholesome sounding Beach Boys wants to go off in such a direction. But it intrigues him even more.

Weeks go by. Jim plays for the Doors by night, and works with Brian by day. They create an entire album, a pop symphony created in the minds of two of the most mystifying musical geniuses of 1966. During this time Brian also records The Doors as a side project (Brian’s only suggestion that they “add more harmonies”). It’s a symbiotic relationship that serves both bands perfectly. The Doors now have a demo tape that sounds like a hit album, they will soon sign with Capitol thanks to Brian putting in a good word.

The Beach Boys get back from a tour and Brian excitedly shows them the new material. It’s weird, no doubt, but Jim and Brian are so confident about it that they see potential in it. At a vocal recording session of ‘CaliEssence’, Mike Love asks Jim Morrison pointedly “What do these lyrics mean?” to which Jim just laughs at Mike. Nothing further is said and The Beach Boys go on recording the songs.

On January 1, 1967 The Beach Boys release ‘Dumb Angel’ to critical acclaim...12 songs of intellectual pop genius. The Doors, on their own merits, skyrocket to the top of the charts with the release of their first album. Brian still takes a break from big productions after ‘Dumb Angel’ and follows the Doors style with a grungy soulful album of their own called ‘Wild Honey’...listen to the organ in the middle eight, perfectly captures that Doors sound. The Beach Boys followup to ‘Dumb Angel’, without the lyrical aid of Jim Morrison, does well on the charts.

They continue to impress listeners and critics for the next decade. Their final album as a group, The Beach Boys Love You becomes the pinnacle of 70s rock...it’s a perfect sendoff for a band that would never tour again until 2012 for a 50th anniversary tour.

The album ‘Dumb Angel’ makes the Rolling Stone top 100 albums ever made list, coming it at number 2 behind Pet Sounds. It is revered as one of the weirdest and incredible collaborations of rock history.

I don't think Mike showed a great deal of literal progression in terms of being more and more open to a certain type of lyric. I think it's mostly about whether *he* got to write those lyrics. Again, see his reaction to the ending suite on TWGMTR. He was going on 71 years old, 50 years into the band, and he was *still* not open to themes/lyrics that weren't exactly mind-blowingly negative or morose.

He still didn't "get it" 50 years later. I don't think "Endless Summer" was the main reason for that. I think that's just how he is.

Two more points about whether or not Brian met Van Dyke

1.  Granted who knows how The Beach Boys history would've shaped up.   There's a chance that Landy doesn't get involved, and there's no split in the late 80s from Brian and the band.  If that's the case, does Brian become the prolific solo artist he's become?  It really seemed like putting out Smile, and getting that monkey off his back recharged his batteries.  Although, without Smile, that monkey may not have been there in the first place.

2.  If a history without VDP means that no incarnation of Vegetables appears anywhere in the BB canon, sign me up.   :lol

Great post Rab!

Then I'd die a happy person :D

"Vegetables" is an important part of the whole "Smile" saga. It's, in my opinion, a bit too facile to just take the goofy nature of the song at face value and compare it to other out-and-out inane stuff in the BB catalog.

But beyond that, I'd take ten "Vegetables" and ten more "Unleash the Love" albums to make sure that "Surf's Up" happened, and happened *just the way* it happened. Every part of it. VDP writing the lyrics. The BBs finishing it in 1971. Perfection. It all may have been the cause or symptoms of any number of positives or ills that befell the band, but as a piece in and of itself, perfection. One of the few moments in my life where I've, even if only for a brief moment, thought about whether for like five seconds there Brian really *did* surpass the Beatles.

I think Mike did show a lot of progression with his lyrics from 65-73.   Granted, he doesn't like some of Brian's more negative or downer lyrics, but I don't think that means Mike wasn't more open minded than you might think.  

Ahh man. That final harmony in Vegetables (under the “I know that you’ll feel better” line) is one of their most beautiful moments, imo. And the version on TSS soars miles above even Brian’s BWPS version. Idk, just my personal preference, but that song is one of their coolest from that era.

And thanks, SB, glad at least one person liked it!

I guess I just have a problem with family members guilt-tripping others, and I don't like bullying behavior, is all.

I'll keep Vegetables if I get to keep Surf's Up.   That much is true.  

But, I think it's still an awful song.  

I'm sorry, but I'll never understand the attraction for that song.  I know it's a fan favorite, but..............

I’m gonna need some Vega-tables after tomorrow....

I guess it’s because I’m not really a lyrics person. Those lyrics are completely ridiculous but beyond that there is so much going on creatively it’s unbelievable...chomping on vegetables for rhythm, deep deep chanting, the sound of a far off drum keeping the beat. Then that harmonious ending.

Granted, you’ve obviously heard all this and still dislike it haha, and I understand. Just sharing why I like it.

Fair enough. 

I'm not much into lyrics either to be honest.  I mean, I'm a huge fan of Motley Crue and Poison, as well as The Beach Boys.   

Haha I hear ya. I love the band ABBA for their sound but ugh their lyrics are completely asinine.

Love it..And yeah, great call on the organ sound of WH...it's one of the reasons why it's my daughter's favorite BB album

Rather than Brian and VDP never meeting, what alternative history might have ensued had Parks formed a permanent songwriting partnership with Brian? And not only with Brian -- Carl and Dennis also used lyric writers from outside the band.

How would the history of the group been different with Carl and Dennis co-writing with Parks in the Sunflower thru Holland period? Parks of course was not just a lyric writer, he also might have contributed to the music and the arrangements. Carl, for one, might have become a more prolific writer with a partner contributing musical ideas.

In this alternate history, Parks might have become The Beach Boys equivalent to the Grateful Dead's Robert Hunter.

I was about to say that I wouldn't have liked the BB nearly as much, until I thought of the fact that Parks's  writing may have turned out different and less esoteric.

Billy needs to repackage himself as a hipster....  ::)

Hey man, I was a hipster before it was cool!






(hey, that was kind of clever)

Hey i’m not one either! :lol