The Smiley Smile Message Board

ESQ's David Beard joined us today to talk about the Wild Honey album. Listen here..... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z68SZupsV0k

Trying to figure out the logic of the discussion that starts around 7:45 or so...David said "Brian was still, I'm not going to say calling the shots because that would be inaccurate...Brian was active" followed by comments about Brian pulling back.

Did David *not* listen to the Sunshine Tomorrow box set with the Wild Honey sessions? Brian is the one calling the shots! I asked months ago when the set was released publicly if someone (or anyone) could pick out and post an example of Carl or another band member "calling the shots" on those tapes, and I don't believe anyone did.

Simply because, they can't find any.

So why is this mythology still allowed to stand and in this case, broadcast to fans who may or may not have a clue or even waded through the session tapes to hear the real story?

Seriously, guys - There has been enough whitewashing and ersatz history to last multiple lifetimes given to the really loyal and invested fans especially over the past 5 years, so why continue it unless there is something on "Sunshine Tomorrow" that proves otherwise?

On another topic, some of the discussion felt a little misleading regarding the use of session players (i.e. The Wrecking Crew) on Wild Honey since there were outside session players on the album and also it was implied the album was done at the home studio where in reality, a good portion of it was cut at Wally Heiders new studio specifically Wally's room "3" which was a near-exact replica of Brian's favorite room Western 3. The studio at the house was still a work in progress, if any album was done where it was a fully installed and operational studio that would be Friends obviously. But Wild Honey was cut almost as much at Heiders as it was at the house, and again the session info on the recordings backs that up.

One more.

Was the fact that the blowup between Mike and Brian at the Redwood session deliberately not brought up, was it not on the docket of topics, or did the ol' clock on the wall simply dictate it couldn't be included? The track Darlin came out of that mess, as did of course Time To Get Alone.

Bottom line the Beach Boys did not want Brian to be producing an album for Redwood, instead they needed him to come back to produce their upcoming album which became Wild Honey after Brian had cut the lead single which became the title cut. So Mike put the kibosh on Brian and Redwood, in dramatic fashion at Heiders during a redwood session as we know. It would have been a topic I think would have been crucial to telling the full story, but as there were attempts by some like Doe and others to call the episode "apocryphal" and try to wipe it off the books until the truth actually came out, I guess maybe there is no surprise if that chapter of the story doesn't make the cut.

I wouldn't speak for David but the purpose of these chats (for me) is to introduce the Beach Boys' music to an audience that is largely unfamiliar with their music outside of the hit singles up through "Good Vibrations". Usually the discussions last around a half hour, split with the music. Yes, the clock IS a factor in radio and I think we spent maybe a minute or two on each track. For me, the story of rewriting Sharon Marie's "Thinkin' Bout You Baby" as "Darlin" is the kind of trivia I know my audience loves (and it gives me an excuse to play an edit of one right into the other). To give you some perspective, I did a show two weeks ago on The Beatles in 1967 with author Robert Rodriguez which included discussion of Sgt. Pepper, "All You Need Is Love", and Magical Mystery Tour...and that was all of 21 minutes. I'm very conscious of not testing the audience's patience with a single topic and if anything I'm trying to make these darn things shorter. That's one of the reasons I decided not to do a 3 hour Beach Boys special this August (we're in danger of Beach Boys overkill).     

I think David and I were both pretty effusive in our praise for Brian (as always) and his work on Wild Honey. And to be accurate David said Brian was "kind of pulling away" during this period, hardly a controversial statement. He also further elaborates that Wild Honey "feels" like a Brian and Carl with The Beach Boys album. Again, suggesting that Carl had more of a role on this album than previous ones, statements historically backed up by the Beach Boys themselves, is not some ridiculous heresy, or an attempt to strip Brian of his credit or a slam against Brian. Frankly, it seems silly to even have to explain that.
     
I can tell you, however,  that whenever I do one of these album reviews I always hear from people who say "I've never heard this stuff before" or "I never took The Beach Boys seriously until you started doing these reviews". That happened again today. Mission accomplished.

If the audience is as you say perhaps unfamiliar with The Beach Boys, I think that makes such a statement coming from David even more irresponsible if not difficult to rationalize. The audience listening, if unfamiliar, would probably not have bought or listened to the Sunshine Tomorrow box and heard audio evidence as in hard fact on tape that Brian was indeed "calling the shots" at those sessions! Brian is the one in control, and you have a guest on the show telling your audience it would be inaccurate to say Brian was calling the shots, when anyone can listen to the tracks and hear it firsthand.

I don't understand that. But I do know it's been something that has been erroneously said for some time to the point where the tapes themselves finally seeing a wide release had to be the proof. If the tapes were full of Carl directing things, i.e. calling the shots, it would be a done deal, right? But Carl simply is not on the tapes acting in that capacity.

So why make such a statement especially to audiences who don't know the history let alone have never listened to the whole album? It's irresponsible.

The Redwood thing, that's it's own topic. I understand time limitations and trying to make a tight, compact show for the listeners. But it seems to be a factor of the story that some have tried and others might like to see swept under the rug rather than have the facts of what happened be told.

I would add another point - David said Carl was the impetus more or less behind the shift to the R&B sound.

Carl is quoted and the quote appeared in the Preiss book back in '78 saying that the shift to the R&B sound on Wild Honey was Brian's call. So having it said or suggested on the show that Carl was the one behind that stylistic shift after Carl himself said Brian wanted to go for the R&B sound just doesn't add up. And it's not just a case of it involving Brian, but more of getting the story right especially for fans who don't know.

I'd also point out for all the time spent on "With A Little Help From My Friends" on the show, the fact that they covered "The Letter" wasn't even mentioned, nor was the fact they attempted other covers like (specifically) "Game Of Love" during this same period, which was of course the Wayne Fontana record done BB's style, as was the Box Tops tune and even how they gave an obscure nod to a Thee Midniters record at the Hawaii concert. It seemed like a little too much weight was placed on the Beatles thing putting more context than necessary into that cover when that was hardly the only cover they were working up from August to November 1967.

It's a cool mission, for sure, to introduce music fans to this kind of music and hip them to something they weren't aware of. And I dig your radio voice, it's old-school and has a level of craft and skill in the way I enjoy hearing tapes of Jon Facenda, Harry Kalas, and Robert W. Morgan.

But at the same time I'd suggest getting more of a filter or fact-check for the content and statement of fact from guests when statements being made to those fans unfamiliar with the music let alone the history are being told things that can be disputed if not refuted by things as easy to find as session tracks on a new BB archival release promoted on the show as well as a book of quotes from band members including Carl himself that was published almost 40 years ago. What the fans heard on the show doesn't jive with what they can hear on tape and hear from Carl himself, so in that regard getting the historical facts spot-on correct should be part of the mission too.

Having heard what exists of the Wild Honey session tapes - beyond just what's been released on ST - I can say that Brian did indeed call the shots, in terms of producing, virtually the whole album, with the exception of "I Was Made To Love Her" (produced by Carl and Bruce, with Al and Dennis present for the basic track - but not Brian). It seems "How She Boogaloed It" was a co-production of Brian, Carl and Bruce (with Carl playing most of the instruments), and Bruce helped produce the a cappella "Mama Says". Other than those titles, from what I can tell, Brian produced all the basic track sessions. Maybe Carl or the others had some production input as far as finishing "Darlin'", for instance, but Brian was the main producer on this album. Production-wise, it IS a very simple album (compared to Pet Sounds and SMiLE) - but there are still many nice production touches scattered throughout (for instance, the organ and guitar on "Aren't You Glad", and the organ effect on the title song).

Hey Ghostly - Thanks for posting the link to your Wild Honey interview with David Beard. And even more importantly, thanks for recording and broadcasting the interview with David Beard in the first place, as there is not a lot of radio attention paid to such great music 50 years after the fact.

And thank you c-man for adding your expertise and first hand knowledge to the discussion.

GF - IMO your points would be more well taken by many readers if you weren't so darn confrontational. You've made some very good points, but they way your comments are stated come across like you're ragging on Ghostly for going to the trouble of promoting the music of the Beach Boys. Perhaps you might ask Ghostly if he'd consider you as an interview subject, although despite your strong background knowledge of the Beach Boys music, I wouldn't be surprised if he felt a degree of trepidation in accepting such an offer.

One more thing, Ghostly, as GF said, you've got a very cool radio voice. Looking forward to hearing more BB related programs from you.

Good to hear, Ghosty.

I have had email exchanges and conversations with David and Ghosty off the board multiple times on a multitude of issues - This was a public radio show linked to on a public fan forum and it should be open for comments and criticism. In this case, David said several things that were simply wrong or inaccurate on the show posted in this thread.

In this specific case of the Wild Honey production, it is a really sore point with me because the FACTS have been posted and repeated numerous times and that includes things I have said on and off the board as well as the reasons listed above. Yet David either failed to listen to the tapes, hasn't heard as much of them as others have or have heard about, or is listening to the wrong people for the information.

At this point what more proof does anyone need beyond now knowing that there are even more session tapes that make even stronger proof that Brian and NOT Carl was the one "calling the shots" during WH?

Why make a statement that Brian calling the shots would be "inaccurate" when it is actually 100% accurate?

And with David, I wish he'd accept that maybe what he and others have been led to believe for years is simply not true, and now apart from my voice which obviously didn't carry any weight despite being 100% correct on this issue all along (that's confrontational, I know), now we know too there are reels of tape of even more WH sessions to refute the mythology that David must still believe. Even after an email exchange off the board and everything else that has been written and said.

Now we know exactly *what* happened, now perhaps we should ask *why* there are still people talking from a position of authority over the knowledge of the band giving out incorrect information when the truth has been repeated enough times by now on this subject.

I don't blame Ghosty but to a point, it is his show where bad info was dispensed to fans who aren't as up on the topic or the music as we are, and I think he shares some responsibility for correcting it and maybe doing some fact-checking in the future. Overall I enjoy his show and have listened to multiple episodes especially the vintage TV segments. great stuff. But in this case, the ball was dropped.

And Custom Machine...curious you take more of an issue with my reaction than with David giving out bad info to a "new" audience of fans, but I'm used to all that by now. It's important to tell fans the accurate version of the facts, I'm surprised but not surprised you're not as troubled by that aspect being into the history as you seem to be about my commentary.

So long

You seem like a lovely guy Mr. Beard.

But first of all, dig this...was working on projects such as The Survivors, Glen Campbell, The Honeys, Jan & Dean and Sharon Marie a sign of him pulling away from 1963 to 1965? I don't think so.

Secondly, who posts a quote of somebody else saying how great they are? I mean, President p*ssy Grabber would likely do such a thing, but what person with a sense of modesty would do that?

Lastly, I know you apologized, but still the fact that you called Brian brain damaged before really kinda bothered me. That was just beyond the pale.

“I’ve known and worked with James Spagett for over a quarter century, and in addition to what I’ve experienced in his exemplary personal qualities, his work as a juggler, punt returner and Jeff Foskett historian has created an invaluable record of one of America’s least popular and least important balding men with shitty falsettos.”
— Donald J. Trump (September 2017)

But why say that saying Brian was still calling the shots was "inaccurate "? That's what the issue with this is.

The solution to all of this is to have a Beach Boys version of Howie Edelson's "Fabcast", which is by and for hardcore fans, and gets into what matters instead of "which band members is your dog most like?" sort of topics.

I wish and hope that before too long maybe I have the time to get something like that up and going (at least an attempt to do so). And/or, I'll slowly try to convince Howie to do it. Such a thing would undoubtedly have a limited, niche audience (to start with, anyway). But we’re all getting older and we’re 56 years into this band. So it’s not out of line for us to ask for something the delves deeper and doesn’t need to cater to a wide, novice, “casual fan” or “non-fan” audience. But I also realize asking for it doesn’t get it done. 

The exact quote (and we were talking about Carl's lead vocal on the song "Wild Honey", for context) is as follows:

"Carl was the right guy for the job. Brian was still...I'm not going to say calling the shots because that would be inaccurate...Brian was active but I think the reason that Carl is so present on this Wild Honey album is because this is where Brian is kind of pulling away, because Brian could've easily sang a lot of this stuff that Carl's singing but we do hear Brian singing on the album where the stuff is more personal".

I don't know where someone gets "Carl produced the album" out of that, nor is that ever said during the course of the conversation. We do say that Carl's love of RnB may have influenced Brian's songwriting. In the liner notes for "Sunshine Tomorrow" Al Jardine states that Carl was getting into production at this time, presumably learning from Brian. We don't even go THAT far.  Lol

Anyway, thanks to the folks who said they enjoyed it and even if you didn't that's cool too.

David, I quoted you exactly in my initial comment, and again this is a direct quote from the broadcast, your own words:

"Brian was still, I'm not going to say calling the shots because that would be inaccurate...Brian was active" followed by comments about Brian pulling back.

Where did I revise what you said? The comment speaks for itself, and it's simply not true nor accurate to the history.

I'm repeating myself on a few points, but I need to make this clear: What upset me was that you made that statement after the Sunshine Tomorrow set which has audio evidence of Brian calling the shots, and also after an email exchange you and I had on this exact topic after you took issue with something I wrote after the Sunshine Tomorrow set was released officially. I laid out the case at that time both public and in whatever replies I sent, they have been confirmed even further, and you still must not accept the facts. I really don't understand where that logic comes from. If you have a specific reason why you ignore all of that to perpetrate a falsehood and broadcast it on a radio show, please share so we can understand what's going on here.

Now on top of that, Craig S. backed up and confirmed even further that there are more session tapes in the vault that have not been released which prove Brian was the one calling the shots for most of these WH era sessions. And having been at this for a fair amount of time myself, Craig S's hard evidence which he provided is the same kind of solid proof that isn't in question (which I was made aware of previously doing my own research) which makes me challenge anything being reported to the contrary, i.e. that someone other than Brian produced or called the shots for most of the WH project. It definitely was not Carl, otherwise he'd be heard acting as producer or calling the shots on the existing tapes.

The Carl quote, about Brian taking the group in an R&B direction with WH, was widely published in the Preiss book and has been known for almost 40 years among fans who have that book or who have read up on the band beyond the surface. That's a pretty cut-and-dry case where Carl himself is quoted saying something that directly refutes what you told fans on the broadcast about bringing in the R&B sound for the band, whether it was stated as opinion or fact. It was Brian's idea and Brian's call. It's no wonder Carl sang with as much energy and joy as he did on the album, to the point where David Anderle reported seeing Carl dancing around the studio as he was working on his vocals.

I'll repeat again that I quoted exactly what you said on the broadcast and even gave the time when you said it, and did not twist or revise a single word.

And I ask yet again, after all the evidence, the actual tapes, the confirmations from those who have heard and studied even more of those same tapes:

*Why did you tell fans it was inaccurate to say Brian was calling the shots?* It's actually 100% accurate and supported by the most primary sources available in the form of the actual tapes to say Brian was calling the shots.

I'm most interested in getting the 100% accurate facts about this band and their history to the fans, especially those new to the band and the music. I still question why you chose to go with incorrect facts if not mythology when the truth can be heard by anyone who listens to the Sunshine Tomorrow release and in light of everything else that has debunked whatever falsehoods were being spread about this album's creation for too long.

"calling the shots" is producing the album in that context, Ghosty. C'mon, I dig your show but let's not get into parsing words or backpedaling. And if you equate which band member other than Brian would be chosen to sing lead on a given track, would that mean Brian was "pulling away" when he had Carl, Al, or Mike sing leads on Pet Sounds or any previous album when Brian himself could have sung them and actually did in the early stages to be replaced later? There is no logic to the connection between pulling away and not singing leads when it's the way Brian was working since 1965 and still works today as recent as the NPP album regarding who sings his songs.

I'm backpedaling by posting the full quote?  (sigh)

.

I'm not going to play that roundabout wordplay game Ghosty. David made statements that were not accurate during your interview, it can be heard on the broadcast, and it appears that he decided to delete his original reply, then bails out instead of answering even the issue Billy asked him about directly again. The comment was made, it's inaccurate even in the context you're trying to suggest he made it, and he didn't address it yet. We could go into any number of facts that also contradict things said in the broadcast and in this thread, like the "pulling away" stuff...Brian was doing *exactly* what Brother was set up to do, which is allow the band members to bring in and work with outside artists and have a label in place to release them. Mike did the same thing with The Pickle Brothers, Carl did it later with The Flame, heck you could argue Dennis could have been trying to do that with Manson!

Not cool at all. If someone takes a position of authority on the history of the band and makes questionable statements that can be challenged if not refuted by the facts, they could at least step up and say "my bad", or "I got it wrong". Instead I get accused of revising a direct quote and other stuff when the facts don't support David's comments?

I guess the follow up is to ask why make such statements contrary to the facts then delete replies and bail out? 

Is it just me, or does Mike intentionally omit and not ever mention the bullying Brian at the Redwood session incident, and further... if any interviewer or contact to Mike wants to continue having any sort of ongoing contact/relationship with Mike whatsoever, they must know full well in their hearts that this must be swept under the rug and never mentioned publicly? It's like some game of politics.

Not passing judgment on anybody for doing that (other than Mike himself), since I *get* that people don't want to be at risk of losing their connections to a band member. I don't think it makes it "right", but I can understand it. Heck, I'm sure the same thing happens with people connected to Brian as well (certain things being off limits). It just seems pretty obvious that's probably something that's been going on for years (Mike making it damn well known that nobody who wants to retain any connection to him is ever to publicly bring up any topic like this, for which he has no defense, and goes against the narrative he's trying to push, trying to convince the world he doesn't/didn't have bullying tendencies aimed towards his cousin).

Brian was in fact in the process of "pulling back" in the latter half of 1967, initially though in name only.

By all accounts, Brian was the sole producer of 'Smiley Smile', yet the lp had a Produced by The Beach Boys credit. That's Brian's 1st step in pulling back. On WH, Brian is the main producer, but, for the first time, had Carl and Bruce lend a hand. And again, a group production credit on the album sleeve, this time slightly more merited.

Do we know the full story on 'Friends'? My impression is that Brian is still in charge production-wise, but that he's opened up the songwriting and is collaborating with Carl, Al, and Dennis on the songs and perhaps the arrangements. Another step back from total control.

Of course, by 20/20 and Sunflower Carl, Dennis, Al, and Bruce are all contributing productions and arrangements. Again, this is just my impression, but I suspect that this gradual album-by-album yielding of control was not an accident, but Brian's post-SMiLE plan. He no longer wanted sole responsibility for the group's successes and failures.

Well, it's always possible that Brian was involved in producing the overdubs for "IWMTLH" - the basic track was VERY sparse:  just minimal guitar by Carl and hi-hat by Dennis - Al was playing bass on the earlier takes, but dropped out well before the final take - so most of what we hear on the record (more guitar, full drums, funky Ron Brown bass playing, keyboards, tambourine - and of course, vocals) were added later.

I've heard most (not all) of the Friends album session tapes, and can tell you - Brian was also the main producer on THAT album. Based on the session tape I've heard, I'd have to say Brian and Dennis co-produced "Little Bird" pretty much 50%/50%. And, honestly, Murry co-produced "Meant For You" and "Transcendental Meditation". But the rest of the album, I believe, was Brian producing. Heck, the other guys weren't even in L.A. when the last three  tracks on that album were cut, as they were away on tour.

As for Carl's increasing role in the studio - well, he definitely started singing more leads with the Smiley Smile album (as the back cover credits make a point of mentioning), and that trend certainly continued with Wild Honey. Carl was there for pretty much all the backing track sessions on both '67 albums - in many cases, those tracks were laid down initially with just two instruments - Brian's piano and Carl's bass - and built up later (or not, in the case of some Smiley Smile cuts). So Carl was definitely plugging away in the studio, right next to Bri. And, to be honest, he may very well have helped produce overdubs and mixdowns - I can't be sure about that. But I do seem to remember a radio interview with Carl from around '88 - I think it was a multi-part series - where Carl said the first record he produced was "Do It Again" (which, as we know, is credited as a Brian-Carl co-production on the 20/20 album). I also recall the discussion Pete Fornatale had with Dennis (November '76), where Dennis stated it was Brian's own idea to change the production credit on their albums to read "Produced by The Beach Boys" (instead of saying "Produced by Brian Wilson) - and that this was a way of de-emphasizing his own role, to remove some of the pressure he was feeling. Of course, by the time of the 20/20 album, it was a truthful credit, as Brian had kind of abandoned the group (only to briefly return, production-wise, for Sunflower). And on 20/20, they even made a point of listing individual producers on specific cuts.

So, the point is, what may have initially started as a ruse by Brian to take some of the spotlight off of himself while still making records (simpler ones, for sure) eventually turned into "truth in advertising", as Brian made a deliberate departure from the group's activities, and the others were forced to "step up to the plate".

Your post hit just before mine - but yes, from what I've ascertained, you have it right. EDIT: I'm talking about your first two paragraphs - as for the third, I don't know if Brian was looking that far into the future, but I do know by the time of 20/20, Brian had apparently been institutionalized for a spell, and came back "not quite the same" (by all accounts). Maybe THAT had something to do with his subsequent dis-interest in the group's output...or maybe he was just bored with the BBs-scene by then...we do know his interest bounced back for Sunflower, and that he was so hurt by that album's lack of commercial success, that he retreated "back to the bushes" (as Carl put it) for the next three albums...

Did you mean to type, "Be Still" ?


Anyway, thanks so much for the insights, c-man! It's greatly appreciated.

Sorry - neither, actually!  I meant "Meant For You" - goes to show I need to slow down! I'll go back and fix my original post - thanks for catching that!

Thanks Jude.
We're doing our best.

Re: A similar BB's show -- be careful what you wish for. . . .

.

Adding up the posts since my last - It seems clear, if not crystal clear and in Technicolor to boot, that the actual tapes both tell the real story and are the proof to say Brian was "calling the shots" for the majority of the productions until the period after Friends. We also know possible reasons for an actual pulling away if not dropping out during that time period (late Spring '68), then coming back sporadically when the muse hit him to come to the studio and do some work.

I appreciate and thank C-Man Craig for detailing all of that information.

What I do find sad in a lot of ways is that some people have been saying all of this same stuff and even having to argue these points when the statements show up that Carl produced most of Wild Honey, Brian dropped out and pulled back in late '67, Carl did most of Friends, and any variations on those themes. It simply was not true. C-Man had the access to the tapes officially - Others may have known details from those who also did but couldn't say much more due to other issues. Still more have done simple things like researching, digging, and asking people specific questions.

Yet there is still this bizarre mindset where people who have been published and considered authorities will continue to basically perpetuate a myth that Carl did much much more than he actually did on the albums up to Friends, especially in the nuts and bolts production or in terms of what a producer actually does when making a record.

I seriously don't get it. I've been arguing these things for quite a few years, in the specific case of this thread I even exchanged emails with David on this exact topic and issue and posted a lot on this. It's like talking into a dead phone after awhile, and to hear a direct quote on a broadcast still doing the same thing after all the info and tapes and firsthand accounts and all else...I'm just baffled and frustrated by a seeming lack of ability to accept fact over what's been erroneously reported for too long.

And then to have it turned on me for revising the quote, or some other rationale and see what looked like backpedaling...again, I just don't get this mindset. The words were spoken and recorded, they're there just like the session tapes from Fall 1967 for anyone to hear and interpret. But it's hard to take "calling the shots" to mean anything in or on the fringes of the context presented except producing the tracks and making the decisions, since the producer "calls the shots".

If these points have been made for years, if the proof came out in tapes released and more tapes are in the vaults backing it up, why was it necessary for C-Man or anyone to have to keep offering more proof when it should have been a closed case years ago? Not taking away from Carl, but why are there these various efforts to overcredit him on projects from this era? At some point it has to end and these comments have to be retracted and corrected, especially from people who are presented as authorities on the subject.


Final request: For the benefit of anyone who may think it's being misread, misunderstood, or revised, I'll flip the question a bit.

***What would be inaccurate in saying "Brian was calling the shots" in the context of Wild Honey?***

I'll gladly have a conversation with anyone on that question, in fact I'd welcome any dialogue on that topic.

Unfortunately, it is a semantic issue here; you would need to clarify, specifically, what "calling shots" entails, and also what "the context of Wild Honey"  refers to. On the actual physical recording of the album, I'm not sure that anyone would dispute that Brian produced it and/or was in control of the recording. Likewise the writing of the music.  But the question of whether Brian is "in control" during the Wild Honey era, or time period as a whole, is a different question.  I would think that it's pretty settled that the "Redwood Affair" establishes that Brian is not in control.  The scene depicted by Chuck Negron, for example, is not that of a man who is in control of his creativity as the Beach Boys are ramping up to make a new album at the end of 1967.  That is, anyone who wants to claim that Brian is "doing what he wants to do" during the Wild Honey era would have to somehow explain away the Redwood incident. 
Maybe the distinction between different kinds of "control" is where the confusion is coming from. Maybe the overall answer is that Brian is in control during Wild Honey but boundaries have been set (collectively, by the organization, and within Brian's psyche) as to how that control will be exercised. 

I've heard the raw session tapes.
Brian Wilson is 1000 percent just as "in charge" / "producing" / "in control" (choose your semantic) as he was during the PS sessions.
Same dude -- different recording situation.

After hearing those raw sessions -- I promise you -- there is NO ONE HERE that could single out any other human as being the creator/producer of that LP.
Brian's baby all the way.

Thanks for adding your input Howie. The evidence and proof keeps piling up, and makes this case all but airtight and all but closed as to Brian's involvement in the album.

Anyone who questions it or continues to suggest someone other than Brian called the shots as has been done (sadly) too often by people who should know better...words and descriptions fail. Fact is fact, and it's all preserved on tape.

Thanks for the reply Jake. Please go back to the original words and re-read what David said as re-posted by Ghosty who hosted the show:


I'm curious to know in what context or what semantics you read from David's quote. I cannot clarify for someone else (Jake) what another someone else (David) meant or intended to say, I can only read it as it appears above. Curious how you read it or what you took it to be a reference for, especially what would be inaccurate in that context, then we'll discuss further.

Actually I accidentally misquoted David. It isn't "right man for the job" but rather "right man for the song". Carry on.

Ahh...I thought it was referring to the ALBUM,  not the song

I did listen to the interview (thanks Ghosty). Going from the language you quoted above, I don't know what to make of it... I'm not privy to a lot of the politics, but it sounds to me like Beard is offering a theory of what went down during the recording of Wild Honey... if he meant to say that Carl produced it, then I would disagree with him, but I don't know if he's saying that.  I personally give him the benefit of the doubt and assume that he was  trying to encapsulate, or summarize a subtle shift in the balance of creative power in the group which was occurring in the post-Smile years.  Beyond that, I don't know.

Whether or not Brian was "pulling away" is, to me, a complicated question. Obviously, he was present and accounted for during the recording of Wild Honey -you can hear that even without hearing session tapes, and moreover, I thought it had been accepted that Carl didn't really begin to step up as a producer until his work on "I Can Hear Music." (I could be wrong).  Therefore, it could only have been Brian running the show on Wild Honey.  But Brian could have done that job, been engaged in it, sung on the album, and, at the same time, still be "pulling away" in some other, less tangible, more psychological sense.  But I don't know... in spite of all the talk about the "mystery" of Smile, to me, Wild Honey (and Smiley Smile and 15 Big Ones) are more mysterious and hard to explain.

Song or album or whatever, the issue is exactly as you posed the question Billy - Why did David say that Brian "calling the shots" was inaccurate? The logic applied to choosing who sang the song or an aspect of the album related to Brian "pulling away" isn't even valid.

Not that anyone asked, but at 21:19 you can hear my summation of the album and who is responsible for it.

Thank you for that, especially in regards to Friends!

I agree with you on some key points Jake. It is a mystery. I'm still waiting for someone to truly reveal what happened when the band returned from The European tour in late Spring '67 and the subsequent weeks saw all recording move into Brian's living room. The closest we got on an inside view was from Nick Grillo and something Derek Taylor hinted at in an article. But that's it.

But you basically spelled out a lot of the issues and reasons I had in mind too. The "I Can Hear Music" point is one that has pretty much been accepted - Carl did not do a full production until that track, and he himself said that.

Which leads me again to challenge why writers like Peter Reum have in the past suggested and even argued that Carl produced most of Wild Honey, and why David in this case made the statement about "calling the shots" if it wasn't specific to producing or was about the WH song's lead vocal or even other issues.

Let me expand briefly on that: I've already outlined it, but on that point *if* that is what David was referring too, the lead vocal, even *that* reference falls flat. Brian always chose who was going to sing his songs. If he felt Carl could do it better, or even if he wrote a song for Carl's voice, or Mike's, or Al's...that's who sang it. We can give numerous, famous examples from God Only Knows to Help Me Rhonda to Vegetables to I Know There's An Answer. Brian could and did sing every harmony and lead part on tracks like those in the demo stages. But for the final lead, he'd choose a lead voice if he had someone in mind.

It makes no sense to suggest Carl singing the title track or even his other leads on WH album indicated Brian "pulling away" any more than Brian giving the leads to Carl, Mike, and Al on Pet Sounds would suggest he was "pulling away" in mid-1966. It's illogical and flawed to make that connection, and Brian to this day records music that same way, he deals out the leads on his songs. "The Right Time" being only one example.

He's usually right. Brian knows voices.  :)

And even your possibility of what "pulling away" could mean has no connection to Carl singing on Wild Honey if that's what David was suggesting, nor does it connect to Brian's work on the album or that single if David says it would be inaccurate to say Brian was calling the shots. Again, it's not just illogical but almost bizarre...

Keep in mind too that the Wild Honey single was recorded and released before the album itself was recorded and weeks prior to the blowup at the Redwood session. So I still can't see a connection with making a comment about calling the shots and this vocal on this single, if that's supposed to be the reference and context.

Your comments were never an issue, Ghosty. Speaking for myself. It was what David said that didn't sit right.

I seem to remember Stephen Desper posting on this board that Brian was totally calling the shots (to use that term) as well for "Break away" which everyone expected to become their next big hit.

Now look what you've done, guys. :thud

Oh no! We lost David Beard, who really contributed um....so...um....much....to this....um...

.....no he didn't. Good riddance if he can't be part of a give and take.

Although I find GF's approach to discussions like this obnoxious, I'll take obnoxious nitpicking over "I'm going to take my ball and go home" any day.

Whether one enjoys Mr. Beard's posts or other work or not, it should be pointed out that he essentially left this board a year ago. Nobody was run off. I'm really not a fan of the "look what you've done, guys" sort of stuff, because all it leads to is people clamming up and fawning when anybody outside normal fandom (e.g. writers, publishers, producers, engineers, etc.) posts here.

I personally think what he initially appears to have done, which was to come back on and defend his words, was the way to go and everybody would respect someone more for sticking up for what they've written or said or otherwise published.

I would encourage him and anybody else to stick around and stand up for their opinions and work. It won't always be warm and fuzzy, and if the discussion/debate becomes circular and unproductive, it's not like it has to continue indefinitely.

I remember when the "Wild Honey" SOT set first hit, listening to the "Here Comes the Night" session and hearing that they were doing the "modular" thing, even if in a more straight-forward fashion, recording one verse and chorus and then stopping, and then looping that. In cases like that, you wouldn't even need a single voice on the session or on the talkback to deduce that it's Brian doing that. Nobody else in the band was into "producing" enough, or had the experience, to use such a specific, arguably slightly peculiar recording method.

Agree fully. I think GF is well-intentioned, if a little overboard sometimes. But I'll take being a stickler for getting things right over somebody who thinks they deserve to have us bow down to him because he has access to the band (and likely now, only to Mike since he called Brian brain damaged).

Actually, David speaks with Brian several times a year. David had just interviewed Brian a few days before we did that Wild Honey track-by-track.

And it's worth noting that David apologized to Melinda and Brian not long after he wrote that article.  Brian has moved on, so hopefully sweetdudejim can as well.

The fact that Brian is generous enough (and has a good enough PR sense) to continue to give ESQ interviews doesn't negate that the infamous "brain damaged" article was out of line. I can't be alone in sensing the hugely strange irony that one of the most obvious, malignant hit pieces to be written about Brian came from the publisher of a Beach Boys fanzine, and in fact the *only* fanzine, one that Brian had contributed interviews *and exclusive music* to in the past.

I don't think it even takes an insider or someone with superhuman knowledge of the politics within the band to point out that Brian and his camp *surely* are aware of what politics and angles were involved in those pieces that gave Mike free reign to tear down NPP and Brian, to pump up and promote Mike's tour while backhandedly complimenting Brian for "occasionally" joining in at his own concerts. That Brian will still give an interview to ESQ says a lot about Brian and that, I'm guessing, it's about, in part, acknowledging that the fans are more important than some old insulting article.

But, as has been mentioned, hopefully everybody has moved on.