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Smiley Smile Stuff => General On Topic Discussions => Topic started by: c-man on October 14, 2017, 03:05:39 PM



Title: Question on "IKTAA" Organ Overdub
Post by: c-man on October 14, 2017, 03:05:39 PM
Need some help from all my friends with ears for such things:
We know that when Brian first cut the track for "Hang Onto Your Ego", there was that cool clarinet riff in the chorus...then that was wiped when the group did their vocals for (first) "Ego", and (later) "I Know There's An Answer". Finally, Brian replaced the background vocals altogether in that part of the song with an organ overdub for the final version.
So here's my question: I used to think that final sound (wiping the background vocals) was played on vibes, 'til someone with great ears (and the initials A.B.) pointed out to me that it's obviously an organ...but does anyone think they hear the initial attack of vibes on the first note, along with the organ? Or have I gone mad, and it's just organ?


Title: Re: Question on \
Post by: Hickory Violet Part IV on October 14, 2017, 03:52:04 PM
I've always heard it as just an organ. Was unaware anyone would have ever thought  it was anything else. Perhaps I take my dog ears for granted  :lol

And wasn't the clarinet fill just on early takes? I don't think it was on the master take. Brian just decided mid session to just have them on the fade. There were no woodwind overdubs, so nothing to erase.

The master track was used for HOTYE, the vocals were then wiped and rerecorded as IKTAA, which had simpler background vocals augmented by a B3.



Title: Re: Question on \
Post by: c-man on October 14, 2017, 06:27:26 PM
I've always heard it as just an organ. Was unaware anyone would have ever thought  it was anything else. Perhaps I take my dog ears for granted  :lol

And wasn't the clarinet fill just on early takes? I don't think it was on the master take. Brian just decided mid session to just have them on the fade. There were no woodwind overdubs, so nothing to erase.

The master track was used for HOTYE, the vocals were then wiped and rerecorded as IKTAA, which had simpler background vocals augmented by a B3.



Thanks - you may be right about the lack of clarinet riff (until the end) on the final take - but the clarinets were recorded, although live with the rest of the basic track instruments, on their own discrete track of the 4-track tape - so theoretically they could have been wiped and replaced by vocals, or organ.  :)


Title: Re: Question on \
Post by: Hickory Violet Part IV on October 14, 2017, 11:23:11 PM
I've always heard it as just an organ. Was unaware anyone would have ever thought  it was anything else. Perhaps I take my dog ears for granted  :lol

And wasn't the clarinet fill just on early takes? I don't think it was on the master take. Brian just decided mid session to just have them on the fade. There were no woodwind overdubs, so nothing to erase.

The master track was used for HOTYE, the vocals were then wiped and rerecorded as IKTAA, which had simpler background vocals augmented by a B3.



Thanks - you may be right about the lack of clarinet riff (until the end) on the final take - but the clarinets were recorded, although live with the rest of the basic track instruments, on their own discrete track of the 4-track tape - so theoretically they could have been wiped and replaced by vocals, or organ.  :)

Ah, of course,  I hadn't thought of that. Wouldn't there be some bleed through though?

I'd love to hear those tracking multis in isolation.

Definitely an organ on finished product though. Can't hear vibes.

Very similar to what he did on H&V for it's official release. Using an organ to fill a dynamic gap where he'd previosly meant something else to be, or in the case of H&V bridging a dynamic gap between two incongruous sections


Title: Re: Question on \
Post by: MrRobinsonsFather on October 14, 2017, 11:46:22 PM
I can only hear the organ too


Title: Re: Question on \
Post by: wjcrerar on October 15, 2017, 06:18:25 AM
I always thought the biggest mistake Brian made with I Know There's an Answer wasn't changing the lyrics, it was dropping the backing vocals. The chorus in the alt mix on the 50th anniversary set feels so much more electric with them included. Clarinet riff totally should've stayed part of the arrangement too.


Title: Re: Question on \
Post by: branaa09 on October 15, 2017, 06:54:22 AM
On the Classic Albums Making of Pet Sounds DVD or Bluray, they got Mark Linett to explain how the track was put together. I believe it's a bonus feature, along with Caroline, No. I will have to pull it out again.


Title: Re: Question on \
Post by: aeijtzsche on October 16, 2017, 01:22:14 PM
I say just organ.


Title: Re: Question on \
Post by: Stephen W. Desper on October 16, 2017, 06:33:57 PM
Need some help . . . does anyone think they hear the initial attack of vibes on the first note, along with the organ? Or have I gone mad, and it's just organ?

COMMENT:  F.Y.I.   This may help you understand what you are hearing.  Vibes are played by striking a rather hard mallet against a metal or wooden tuned bar that is suspended over a tuned air cavity. Thus, the initial sound is a percussive followed by the resonance of the bar.

The Hammond organ is unlike all other organs in that the sound is not electronic, but rather electric. Each note's sound is produced by a rotating wheel colored with black and white strips that is read by a photocell as a note. This technique produces a "chiff" (to use a pipe organ term) or click at the start of each note. Electronic organs (those that use oscillators to produce each note) do not produce such chiff, but rather just start the note as a tone.

As vibes have their mallet sound leading each note, Hammonds have their chiff or click to lead each note. This subconsciously directs attention to each note. Also like vibs, the Hammond organ is favored by Jazz musicians because as they play very fast and complex vamps or runs over the keyboard or bars, the mallet sound and the chiff sound enable the ear to follow each note more closely and/or give a separation to the notes in a run.  

All commercial produced Hammond organs use a high-frequency filter to reduce this effect, which for most music is more pleasing. But Jazz musicians remove the filter for the added clarity of individual notes. Some studio Hammonds also remove the filter so that the organ notes "cut" though a mix.

I can only guess, but I would surmise that what you hear is the unfiltered Hammond sound -- which can sometimes sound like a mallet before each note, when it is really an electric click, the unfiltered normal Hammond B3 sound.

The Hammond also has a percussion setting. Brian may have used this setting and that is what you hear. Just an educated guess. Go here for a short example of the Hammond Percussion setting and its sound. >>>

1)  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EEb0miSlyZA&app=desktop
2)  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTtmJhksXbY

~swd


Title: Re: Question on \
Post by: Add Some on October 16, 2017, 07:21:11 PM
Ah yes...I know that sound Stephen...When I was a lad...and a piano player...our next door neighbour got a brand new living room style Hammond Organ and I was invited to play it from time to time.  Those clicky sounding notes threw me every time.   It was if I'd missed hitting them for a split of a split second.  The foot peddles were fun though.


Title: Re: Question on \
Post by: MrRobinsonsFather on October 17, 2017, 12:25:20 AM
Thanks for the info Mr Desper


Title: Re: Question on \
Post by: c-man on October 17, 2017, 03:59:21 AM
Need some help . . . does anyone think they hear the initial attack of vibes on the first note, along with the organ? Or have I gone mad, and it's just organ?

COMMENT:  F.Y.I.   This may help you understand what you are hearing.  Vibes are played by striking a rather hard mallet against a metal or wooden tuned bar that is suspended over a tuned air cavity. Thus, the initial sound is a percussive followed by the resonance of the bar.

The Hammond organ is unlike all other organs in that the sound is not electronic, but rather electric. Each note's sound is produced by a rotating wheel colored with black and white strips that is read by a photocell as a note. This technique produces a "chiff" (to use a pipe organ term) or click at the start of each note. Electronic organs (those that use oscillators to produce each note) do not produce such chiff, but rather just start the note as a tone.

As vibes have their mallet sound leading each note, Hammonds have their chiff or click to lead each note. This subconsciously directs attention to each note. Also like vibs, the Hammond organ is favored by Jazz musicians because as they play very fast and complex vamps or runs over the keyboard or bars, the mallet sound and the chiff sound enable the ear to follow each note more closely and/or give a separation to the notes in a run.  

All commercial produced Hammond organs use a high-frequency filter to reduce this effect, which for most music is more pleasing. But Jazz musicians remove the filter for the added clarity of individual notes. Some studio Hammonds also remove the filter so that the organ notes "cut" though a mix.

I can only guess, but I would surmise that what you hear is the unfiltered Hammond sound -- which can sometimes sound like a mallet before each note, when it is really an electric click, the unfiltered normal Hammond B3 sound.

The Hammond also has a percussion setting. Brian may have used this setting and that is what you hear. Just an educated guess. Go here for a short example of the Hammond Percussion setting and its sound. >>>

1)  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EEb0miSlyZA&app=desktop
2)  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTtmJhksXbY

~swd

Fascinating info, Stephen - this explains a lot! Thanks.


Title: Re: Question on \
Post by: Pet Sounder on October 19, 2017, 09:27:49 AM
On the Classic Albums Making of Pet Sounds DVD or Bluray, they got Mark Linett to explain how the track was put together. I believe it's a bonus feature, along with Caroline, No. I will have to pull it out again.

Yep, it's a bonus feature.  But it ends before my favorite part - the tag!  I REALLY hope that somehow, someday, the complete sessions and multi tracks will be released.  I've always wanted to know if Brian had the tag planned all along, or if he came up with it during the session.  The early track on the boxed set doesn't have the horns at the end.  But maybe it's just because he didn't want to rehearse that part yet until they got the verses and chorus down first.  I think IKTAA is one of Brian's finest productions, even though it isn't as complex as some of his other material.  There is so much that's just so right about that track.  The strange sound of the organ and piano perfectly balanced, the forceful bass harmonica, the ethereal guitar part that comes in at the second verse, and the way it all comes together with the horns at the fade - they all combine to make it my favorite backing track.


Title: Re: Question on \
Post by: DonnyL on October 19, 2017, 11:28:25 AM
I'm not sure I know the exact section you're referring to, but I hear vibes on the final backtrack ... not attack, but flourishes throughout.


Title: Re: Question on \
Post by: JK on October 19, 2017, 12:33:24 PM
If the section at 12:22 is anything to go by, it would seem to be just organ (if I understand the issue correctly):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3f6ZKQ_ffo


Title: Re: Question on \
Post by: Stephen W. Desper on October 19, 2017, 07:37:04 PM
If the section at 12:22 is anything to go by, it would seem to be just organ (if I understand the issue correctly):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3f6ZKQ_ffo

COMMENT to JK:  Good find, but the organ closeup shot at 12:22 is a repeated copy of the same shot at 3:54, but with an added comment. I don't think it is "anything to go by" as the entire video is a collection of films and photos edited together to form a pleasant visual for the song. The sound track and the images in the video are totally unrelated.  ~swd


Title: Re: Question on \
Post by: c-man on October 19, 2017, 07:54:55 PM
I'm not sure I know the exact section you're referring to, but I hear vibes on the final backtrack ... not attack, but flourishes throughout.

I'm referring to the chorus - right where Brian sings, "I know there's an answer..." - organ comes in. Curious, Donny - where do you hear the vibe flourishes?


Title: Re: Question on \
Post by: guitarfool2002 on October 19, 2017, 09:37:07 PM
If the section at 12:22 is anything to go by, it would seem to be just organ (if I understand the issue correctly):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3f6ZKQ_ffo

COMMENT to JK:  Good find, but the organ closeup shot at 12:22 is a repeated copy of the same shot at 3:54, but with an added comment. I don't think it is "anything to go by" as the entire video is a collection of films and photos edited together to form a pleasant visual for the song. The sound track and the images in the video are totally unrelated.  ~swd

Here's an interesting sidebar to consider. The organ sound that JK referenced at 12:22 in that video...that does *not* sound like a Hammond to these ears. And I have shared living quarters with a Hammond and Leslie cab in the past  ;D .

But to me, JK's reference sounds like a reed organ, the old reed pump organ of the type Brian would use again through the 70's and up to TLOS as detailed in his book.

Unless that's been hashed out and credited already, JK's reference sound is not a Hammond organ.

So perhaps the stock photo chosen for that point in the video is actually somewhat on-point, because the still frame looks like a pump reed organ with the numbered stops and I swear that's what we're hearing too. If I'm wrong I'm wrong.

And just to add to Mr. Desper's posts, for great musical references on what the Hammond B3 or C3 (or M3) sounds like when in full flight on "jazzy" recordings, listen to anything Jimmy Smith cut for Blue Note in the early 60's and listen to "Then You Can Tell Me Goodbye" by The Casinos, one of the finest examples of a smoky/jazzy Hammond break recorded in the 60's (for my money...)

Otherwise, unless someone uncovers other layers of sound, I think most of the organ tones on PS came from a Hammond tonewheel organ through a Leslie, standard setup for 1965-66, and most times to my ears with the "percussion" effect engaged. No clue what the drawbar settings would be, because as heard on several session tapes, these would be changed mid-session if not mid-song (think Fun Fun Fun). Takes a trained Hammond players' ear to nail those down.


Title: Re: Question on \
Post by: guitarfool2002 on October 19, 2017, 09:47:49 PM
Just for reference, watch this demo of an antique "Bell" pump organ from the 19th century, keeping in mind this is a 100% acoustic, wind-through-reed instrument driven by a foot-pump bellows mechanism. Sounds very similar to the Baldwin of Smiley Smile fame depending on the stops Brian used.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kiBV6b25f8U (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kiBV6b25f8U)


Title: Re: Question on \
Post by: guitarfool2002 on October 19, 2017, 10:25:54 PM
FYI: Carl with an antique pump organ:

(https://images1.houstonpress.com/imager/u/original/7853608/hou_mus_101615_carl_copy.jpg)


Title: Re: Question on \
Post by: JK on October 20, 2017, 02:51:04 AM
Just for reference, watch this demo of an antique "Bell" pump organ from the 19th century, keeping in mind this is a 100% acoustic, wind-through-reed instrument driven by a foot-pump bellows mechanism. Sounds very similar to the Baldwin of Smiley Smile fame depending on the stops Brian used.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kiBV6b25f8U (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kiBV6b25f8U)

Oh yes. Same thing as a harmonium, right? I was fortunate enough to play one at length in someone's garage back in the sixties. "Easier Said Than Done" sounded great on it!

Usually with topics like these, which I love reading but are quite technical and require an in-depth knowledge of BB/BW music (and history) I simply don't possess, I tend to withdraw any potential comment I might have at the last moment. I'm glad I didn't this time.

Who said there was nothing left to say about The Beach Boys? ;D     


Title: Re: Question on \
Post by: c-man on October 20, 2017, 04:32:28 AM
Wow - that's amazing, guys! Based on the isolation provided at 12:22 in the video above, I think it safe to say it's "organ only". And, the reediness evident in that isolated track does make me think "harmonium rather than Hammond". On the finished product, it sounds like the "highs" have been tweaked via EQ, but here it sounds more "flat" and "reedy". What was your source for the isolation?


Title: Re: Question on \
Post by: c-man on October 20, 2017, 05:08:29 AM
Here's another question related to "IKTAA" - Glen Campbell's banjo overdub appears twice in the song: during the bass harmonica solo, and again during the tag. Does anyone think that there's also a woodwind part on the same track as the banjo in the tag? To me, listening to the stereo mix, it kinda seems like a prominent clarinet line might be doubled on the same track as the banjo, but the separation isn't profound enough for me to tell for sure. The reason I suspect this is that both Glen and Steve Douglas were paid a full hour of overtime on that recording date, and they're the only two musicians who were (engineer Chuck Britz also was - but the other players only got a half-hour of OT)...Glen's extra half-hour of OT is obviously because he stayed behind after the others were dismissed and played that banjo overdub part. I hear no woodwind during the solo, but during the tag, not only do I hear the clarinets (and likely alto flutes) from the basic track, but as I said, possibly another clarinet on the banjo track, doubling the main clarinet part from the basic track. Anyone else hear that? Is it possible to isolate the banjo track during the tag?


Title: Re: Question on \
Post by: JK on October 20, 2017, 05:10:04 AM
Wow - that's amazing, guys! Based on the isolation provided at 12:22 in the video above, I think it safe to say it's "organ only". And, the reediness evident in that isolated track does make me think "harmonium rather than Hammond". On the finished product, it sounds like the "highs" have been tweaked via EQ, but here it sounds more "flat" and "reedy". What was your source for the isolation?

You mean how did I find it? By sheer luck! It struck me if there was one online resource that might provide an answer it would be the "Behind the Sounds" series on YouTube. And lo and behold, there it was.


Title: Re: Question on \
Post by: JK on October 20, 2017, 05:23:56 AM
As for the possibility of an extra woodwind part recorded with the banjo on the tag, once again that video may provide a clue.

Hardly conclusive evidence, of course, but some time after 6:20 (at about 6:28), Brian stops the tape machine and all you hear playing after that is Glen's banjo...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3f6ZKQ_ffo


Title: Re: Question on \
Post by: Stephen W. Desper on October 20, 2017, 11:28:10 AM
COMMENT:

Whatever the organ is at 12:32 is is a crappy recording and an obvious edited insert. It sounds like any electronic organ to me and not an acoustic reed organ.

I learned to play a keyboard when in grade school by playing the reed organ in our family home. When it would break I would fix it, so I'm well acquainted with these old instruments.

I am very familiar with the reed organ Brian recorded and have recorded it several times. It was featured on A Day in the Life of a Tree).

The pump-reed organ pictured with Carl is NOT the organ Brian recorded -- at least in the house studio. Brian used a rented reed organ of 19th century vintage from Studio Instrument Rental (( http://www.sir-usa.com/ )), a large rental firm that supplies studios with any kind of instrument needed -- from tune-able gongs to pipe organs, whistles to ten-foot marching drums, and every make and model of guitar you can imagine. The reed organ we rented was converted to a motor driven bellows.

In the photo at 12:32, the buttons showing under the keys are not stops (another pipe organ term meaning, it stops the flow of air over a pipe or set of pipes), rather they are "preset buttons" that combine any number of stops to activate when pushed.

About the Hammond drawbars . . .  Each is a slider switch that you pull out. Each drawbar is driven by a lightwheel within the organ itself. Each drawbar has detentes of one to eight (I believe). The drawbars are arranged in sets that represent musically related harmonics making up a complete sound. By pulling out the drawbars you can specify the tonality of the note you are playing. Example: Drawbar one is the fundimental tone, Drawbar Two is the third harmonic, Drawbar three is the fifth harmonic, Drawbar four is the seventh harmonic (I think), and the next few drawbars repeat the harmonics only an octave higher -- and so on. 

About the Hammond percussion stop . . .  This stop, which is actually a set of switches, works in combination with one set of drawbars. Depending on how far out you pull the drawbars (1-8 clicks) you can adjust the ratio of tone to percussion. Thus, if you don't pull out any drawbars, you only can hear the percussion sound, which sounds somewhat like a xylophone (metal bars). If you rotate a Lesley speaker and just play the percussion sound, it sounds somewhat like a vibraphone. So if you combine the drawbars set to 1, 2, or 3 (a low volume setting) with the percussion, it can fool you into thinking it's an organ and a vibraphone.

~swd


Title: Re: Question on \
Post by: c-man on October 20, 2017, 09:46:10 PM
I think the photo of Carl with the Packard harmonium organ is from the studio in Holland. Not 100% sure, but I think so.


Title: Re: Question on \
Post by: Ebb and Flow on October 21, 2017, 01:41:34 AM
Wow - that's amazing, guys! Based on the isolation provided at 12:22 in the video above, I think it safe to say it's "organ only". And, the reediness evident in that isolated track does make me think "harmonium rather than Hammond". On the finished product, it sounds like the "highs" have been tweaked via EQ, but here it sounds more "flat" and "reedy". What was your source for the isolation?
I'm the author of those videos and the source for the organ audio there is from the SOT Pet Sounds box, which is essentially a haphazard dump of the multis.  I think I used the vocal track from another track on there to pan the organ out and further isolate it, which is why it sounds a little phasey.

Here's another question related to "IKTAA" - Glen Campbell's banjo overdub appears twice in the song: during the bass harmonica solo, and again during the tag. Does anyone think that there's also a woodwind part on the same track as the banjo in the tag? To me, listening to the stereo mix, it kinda seems like a prominent clarinet line might be doubled on the same track as the banjo, but the separation isn't profound enough for me to tell for sure. The reason I suspect this is that both Glen and Steve Douglas were paid a full hour of overtime on that recording date, and they're the only two musicians who were (engineer Chuck Britz also was - but the other players only got a half-hour of OT)...Glen's extra half-hour of OT is obviously because he stayed behind after the others were dismissed and played that banjo overdub part. I hear no woodwind during the solo, but during the tag, not only do I hear the clarinets (and likely alto flutes) from the basic track, but as I said, possibly another clarinet on the banjo track, doubling the main clarinet part from the basic track. Anyone else hear that? Is it possible to isolate the banjo track during the tag?

The full banjo track can be heard in the far right channel on the SOT Pet Sounds box also on the track labeled "Take 12 Master Take".  The first part of the song Glen can be heard tuning up and practicing.  From what I can hear there's nothing else on that track but the banjo.


Title: Re: Question on \
Post by: c-man on October 21, 2017, 09:21:21 AM
I think the photo of Carl with the Packard harmonium organ is from the studio in Holland. Not 100% sure, but I think so.

In fact, the Packard may have been used on the Holland cut "California Saga, Part Three: California". If you listen to the very end of that song, you can hear the organ and Moog bass pretty much by themselves for a second or so, and I think the organ sounds "reedy" enough there to tell us that may be the case.