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Smiley Smile Stuff => General On Topic Discussions => Topic started by: NateRuvin on September 28, 2017, 12:21:15 PM



Title: Brian Wilson & Joe Thomas
Post by: NateRuvin on September 28, 2017, 12:21:15 PM
So I've been reading about the production of BW's solo material on some recent threads, and I have many questions.

Why was Joe Thomas brought in for Stars & Stripes?

How come after all the BS Brian went through in the late 90's with Thomas, why was he brought back in 2012?

What was the story with Joe Thomas being a producer on NPP, and then being dismissed somewhere down the line, so Brian could finish the album by himself?


I'm just very intrigued and confused by this subject.


Title: Re: Brian Wilson & Joe Thomas
Post by: the captain on September 28, 2017, 12:27:13 PM
I think the easiest explanation for 2012 is that Thomas had recordings Brian wanted. But it could also be he was mutually acceptable among the parties.


Title: Re: Brian Wilson & Joe Thomas
Post by: HeyJude on September 28, 2017, 12:32:40 PM
So I've been reading about the production of BW's solo material on some recent threads, and I have many questions.

Why was Joe Thomas brought in for Stars & Stripes?

How come after all the BS Brian went through in the late 90's with Thomas, why was he brought back in 2012?

What was the story with Joe Thomas being a producer on NPP, and then being dismissed somewhere down the line, so Brian could finish the album by himself?


I'm just very intrigued and confused by this subject.

Here's an old post from guitarfool that recaps how Joe Thomas came into the BB orbit. Long story short, Joe had the S&S idea and took it to Mike, and it went on from there:

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,24284.msg590741.html#msg590741


Title: Re: Brian Wilson & Joe Thomas
Post by: Wirestone on September 28, 2017, 12:48:52 PM
I think the easiest explanation for 2012 is that Thomas had recordings Brian wanted. But it could also be he was mutually acceptable among the parties.

He also built a multimedia production outfit, allowing for easy creation of tour videos, etc. And I think Brian also wanted a buffer to deal with the rest of the group -- the last person who had performed that role was Joe.

As for the No Pier Pressure sessions, no one has said outright that Joe was dismissed or anything. Just the general rumors about the way the production wrapped up suggested that Brian had taken a bit more charge of the proceedings, and Joe had other business to attend to in Chicago.


Title: Re: Brian Wilson & Joe Thomas
Post by: CenturyDeprived on September 28, 2017, 12:56:49 PM
What was the deal with the lawsuit between Melinda and Joe? And I am misremembering, or weren't there some really ugly things said about each other? Why am I remembering reading about a slur of some sort being said? Too lazy to research this right now.

I'm way surprised that things got patched up; I guess it was really because he was one of the only people who was able to work well with Brian and also Mike, plus Brian had some tunes cowritten with Joe, and if they hadn't patched things up, those tunes would have never seen the light of day/completion.


Title: Re: Brian Wilson & Joe Thomas
Post by: SMiLE Brian on September 28, 2017, 12:57:27 PM
Was Joe Thomas the smusher or the captain? ;D


Title: Re: Brian Wilson & Joe Thomas
Post by: Wirestone on September 28, 2017, 01:00:54 PM
Bad Vibrations (Chicago Sun-Times)

September 22, 1999

BY DAVE HOEKSTRA STAFF REPORTER

The good vibrations have gone bad between Beach Boy Brian Wilson and his former partner and producer Joe Thomas.

Earlier this month, Wilson put his 23-room home in far west suburban St. Charles on the market for $2.4 million. Wilson, wife Melinda and their two children, who returned to Beverly Hills, haven't lived in the house since March.

The sale comes after a lawsuit that Melinda Wilson filed Aug. 23 in Los Angeles Superior Court. It seeks to dissolve Wilson-Thomas Productions, a company co-owned by the Wilsons and Thomas, and alleges that Thomas took advantage of the Wilson name.

Thomas filed a countersuit Aug. 27 in Cook County Circuit Court that seeks $5 million in punitive damages; it charges that Melinda Wilson manipulated Brian Wilson and Thomas.

His suit also seeks to place Wilson-Thomas Productions' assets in a trust, appoint a receiver to manage the company's affairs and conduct an accounting.

Making matters worse, Wilson and Thomas were next-door neighbors. Their wives bought the homes together on what was supposed to be a suburban shopping spree in spring 1997.

Maybe Ann and Nancy Wilson of the band Heart are looking for a cozy little mansion with a sauna, exercise room, nine fireplaces and a state-of-the-art recording studio.

"We've had a lot of calls," said Arlene Witmer, the Coldwell Banker real estate agent handling the sale. "But it's not officially on the market until Sept. 28. There are still things being done in the house."

Meanwhile, surf's out for Thomas.

"I'm devastated," he said in an interview last week. "The sad thing about the people who get close to Brian is that the same things happen over and over again. It's got to be tiring for the public to hear this."

In the past, Wilson weathered the storms churned up by his late father and first manager Murry, Beach Boys bandmate and cousin Mike Love and songwriting partner (and Wilson's former psychiatrist) Eugene Landy.

Thomas last saw Wilson in mid-June when Brian and his solo touring band finished a short East Coast tour. Thomas played keyboards and sang backing vocals. "Everything was cool," said Thomas, who added that he doesn't expect to see Wilson again. "I was under the understanding we were going to finish the two albums we had recorded."

Thomas said they had almost finished an uptempo, rock-oriented studio album and a live disc recorded last March at the Rosemont Theatre.

Then the word came down, Thomas said, that the discs were not going to happen. "It wasn't from Brian, in my opinion," said Thomas, who has produced Alan Parsons, Peter Cetera and roots rocker Monte Warden. "That's all I can say. I'm still confused why we recorded two albums' worth of material and the decision is being made not to release them."

Thomas figures the tapes will be destroyed.

In early July, Wilson, his wife and the band went to Japan for a 10-day tour. Thomas stayed home to work on the two records. While in Japan, Thomas said, Melinda booked Wilson on a monthlong West Coast tour for October.

"That was done without my knowledge, which is my contention in my suit," Thomas said. "I would guess from everything going on that Melinda made the decision Brian was going to tour rather than record."

"That's ridiculous," said a Wilson spokesperson. "Brian has a booking agency. He used to have William Morris, and he's had the Agency Group since the Japan dates. Melinda isn't booking the dates."

Neither Brian nor Melinda Wilson would comment.

Over time, Melinda became more involved with the Wilson-Thomas partnership, Thomas said. "Especially since Carl [Brian's brother] and Brian's mom died [both in 1998], Melinda's involvement dramatically increased," Thomas said. "I'm not sure it's Melinda's place to be in the studio with us.

"Toward the end of the relationship, I wasn't convinced that Brian was making the musical decisions."


Title: Re: Brian Wilson & Joe Thomas
Post by: HeyJude on September 28, 2017, 01:10:49 PM
I think the easiest explanation for 2012 is that Thomas had recordings Brian wanted. But it could also be he was mutually acceptable among the parties.

He also built a multimedia production outfit, allowing for easy creation of tour videos, etc. And I think Brian also wanted a buffer to deal with the rest of the group -- the last person who had performed that role was Joe.


I think these three reasons are likely at the heart of how Joe came back into the fold.

In the few interviews he gave, Thomas described having held onto the demos/worktapes of Brian's from the 1998-ish timeframe.

Brian apparently called him up several years prior to C50 commencing. I'm guessing part of bringing Joe back into the fold was to gain access to those compositions/tapes.

And indeed, Thomas has also worked on stuff like the PBS "Soundstage" show for years and had/has a whole apparatus to make something like C50 happen. He put a lot of C50 together. Someone was definitely needed to fill that role, and nobody at BRI was able to at that time.

And especially in the studio, Thomas surely was a good buffer for Brian to have in the studio. Probably similar to how he had Don Was (and Andy Paley) in there during the aborted mid-90s BB sessions.

It's also *very* interesting in my opinion to see how Joe Thomas's public persona in the 2010's is *very* different from 1998/99. In 98/99, Thomas was all over the TV documentary in interviews, was at Brian's side for TV appearances, was in the touring band, and so on. As I've mentioned in the past, there is hardly any photographic evidence of Joe Thomas since he rejoined with Brian and the BB's circa 2010-ish and into 2012-2015. Thomas only gave two *print* interviews surrounding C50 as I recall. There isn't a single photo I've seen of Joe with Brian and/or the BB's from 2012. I think I've seen *one* photo of Joe posing with Brian/Al/Dave during the 2013 tour.


Title: Re: Brian Wilson & Joe Thomas
Post by: timbnash68 on September 28, 2017, 01:19:06 PM
Without getting too inside , i have to state that I believe  the rumors of the  Thomas demise with respect to NPP  and RJR have been really exaggerated! I know one of the guitar players who played on Run James Run as well as another song on NPP. As of just a few months ago, he worked with both Brian and Thomas together at separate studios! I asked how. Something that  nobody thought of yet was his answer. He said  when they were recording,Brian was at Oceanway and Joe was at another studio with the guitar player, presumably in Nashville. He said Brian and Joe were on Skype laughing it up and that Brian seemed very involved and comfortable communicating with  Thomas on the   TV monitor they set up in the studio. He went on to say that other than a very short time delay, they communicated very well together! As if they had done this before. According to him,at one point Brian laughed that he was ordering at  In and Out Burger and it was sad that they couldn't share their usual studio meal  together.   Digital lines and skype  is a very common practice here in Nashville. Not the In and Out Burger part. My guess is that they are both very busy. And Id be willing to bet that whomever stated that Thomas was out because he wasn't at the final sessions in L A , may have left out this important detail. So as they say in Star Wars, it is true from a certain perspective that Thomas wasn't there in La. But from another it seems that Wilson and Thomas are possibly more high tech than we could have imagined.


Title: Re: Brian Wilson & Joe Thomas
Post by: SMiLE Brian on September 28, 2017, 01:27:37 PM
Cool stuff timbnash!


Title: Re: Brian Wilson & Joe Thomas
Post by: HeyJude on September 28, 2017, 01:40:26 PM
Recording remotely/over the internet is not a new thing, it was done as early as the mid-late 90s at least.

Given Thomas's well-known aversion to flying, this sort of set up makes sense. Brian hasn't had a ton of downtime this year after March, so I'm not sure how much recording may have been done this year.

I think, too, that Brian is more likely to work with Joe when they're working on their joint compositions. So, for instance, I'm not sure if Joe would definitely be involved if Brian goes in and records and album of oldie R&R songs.

They seem to have a more appropriate relationship now than in 1998/99. The problem back then was that their business partnership (to say nothing of moving in next door to each other) made it difficult for Brian to just *an* album without Thomas and then maybe go back and forth between working with and without Thomas. So these days, it's not like Joe is joined with Brian at the hip for everything he does.


Title: Re: Brian Wilson & Joe Thomas
Post by: the captain on September 28, 2017, 02:19:03 PM
Regarding any relationship stuff, I don't know. They're big boys. They're both pros. They were friends at one time (at least). Yes, things got ugly with business, as unfortunately happens. Presumably they've just moved on. Y'know, like normal human beings who are stuck in the past.

I'm sure when BW feels like working with JT (like on some of NPP), he tries to arrange it. When he doesn't, he doesn't. It's not all or nothing. A professional relationship (and even friendship) isn't a monogamous marriage. There need not be drama. There need not be a "story."


Title: Re: Brian Wilson & Joe Thomas
Post by: CenturyDeprived on September 28, 2017, 02:33:59 PM
Regarding any relationship stuff, I don't know. They're big boys. They're both pros. They were friends at one time (at least). Yes, things got ugly with business, as unfortunately happens. Presumably they've just moved on. Y'know, like normal human beings who are stuck in the past.

I'm sure when BW feels like working with JT (like on some of NPP), he tries to arrange it. When he doesn't, he doesn't. It's not all or nothing. A professional relationship (and even friendship) isn't a monogamous marriage. There need not be drama. There need not be a "story."

It's interesting, considering *just* how ugly things apparently got with Joe vs. Melinda/Brian, that they patched things up and worked on MULTIPLE consecutive projects down the road. I would not have thought this possible had it not actually happened. This is in stark contrast to Mike, the other guy who it is extremely surprising that things were (even only temporarily) patched up with, only to have things fall apart again very quickly.

Again, most likely unlike the Mike/Brian situation, I have a hunch that Joe and Melinda probably had an adult, mature conversation at some point, with some actual apologies being uttered by both sides. Maybe not, but just a hunch. There were no family bonds to coerce such a relationship to become decent again, so it stands to reason they probably dealt with their past issues in something resembling a mature manner.


Title: Re: Brian Wilson & Joe Thomas
Post by: SMiLE Brian on September 28, 2017, 02:47:12 PM
Well said Captain, these guys are adults working at the end of the day. Not some fanboy fantasy soap opera....



P.S- Add smusher to your signature.....


Title: Re: Brian Wilson & Joe Thomas
Post by: the captain on September 28, 2017, 05:41:35 PM
Don't tell me how to live my life.


Title: Re: Brian Wilson & Joe Thomas
Post by: SMiLE Brian on September 28, 2017, 06:15:51 PM
I love to say dada....


Title: Re: Brian Wilson & Joe Thomas
Post by: ♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇 on September 28, 2017, 07:01:32 PM
I made smush in my pants...NURSE! !!


Title: Re: Brian Wilson & Joe Thomas
Post by: SMiLE Brian on September 28, 2017, 07:02:25 PM
 :lol


Title: Re: Brian Wilson & Joe Thomas
Post by: guitarfool2002 on September 28, 2017, 07:35:46 PM
Re: That article reprinted above and some subsequent comments.

What isn't addressed is what Peter Carlin hinted at in his book regarding the presentation of the music. We should let anyone who doesn't know or hasn't read that account catch up, then I'd love to hear some comments and discussion and opinions on that.

My two cents, yes it's reviving the past and all that but if the Carlin account is something readers believe is the truth, and it is a surface telling of the story...the fans like me who saw Brian on that very first tour when his band played as authentic and respectful to the original music being presented and as kick-ass and jaw-dropping in terms of musicianship as I've ever seen in person got the best of the behind the scenes stuff that happened. We got what fans are still digging on the live stage almost 20 years later. We didn't get what the Carlin account says could have been A.C. and smooth jazz reworkings of classics in place of the original arrangements and original instrumentation that still makes the live shows so special.

Having said that, and it is just an addendum to the 1999 article which doesn't mention the musical angle that was a factor in some of this, the TWGMTR album and C50 was brilliant. The album seems to get better every time I give it a spin, and it sounds great. It was just what the fans and what the band needed after not doing sh*t together for years. The songs were there, and someone who could facilitate and make things happen. It's a shame Mike pulled the plug on revisiting a model that worked and scored a top-5 album and a tour that everyone raved about and were asking for more dates. Kudos to Joe for doing what he did in 2012.





Title: Re: Brian Wilson & Joe Thomas
Post by: Wirestone on September 28, 2017, 07:50:02 PM
The Imagination DVD actually gives a decent idea of the approach Joe presumably had in mind. Footage from the 1998 St. Charles show features a very AC approach -- along with Bruce and Christopher Cross auditioning for the Jeff Foslett role ...


Title: Re: Brian Wilson & Joe Thomas
Post by: ♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇 on September 28, 2017, 11:18:40 PM
I still like TWGMTR but prefer the textures of NPP personally,  esp the bass sound


Title: Re: Brian Wilson & Joe Thomas
Post by: ForHerCryingSoul on September 29, 2017, 12:30:58 AM
Thomas said they had almost finished an uptempo, rock-oriented studio album and a live disc recorded last March at the Rosemont Theatre.

Then the word came down, Thomas said, that the discs were not going to happen. "It wasn't from Brian, in my opinion," said Thomas, who has produced Alan Parsons, Peter Cetera and roots rocker Monte Warden. "That's all I can say. I'm still confused why we recorded two albums' worth of material and the decision is being made not to release them."

Thomas figures the tapes will be destroyed.

In early July, Wilson, his wife and the band went to Japan for a 10-day tour. Thomas stayed home to work on the two records. While in Japan, Thomas said, Melinda booked Wilson on a monthlong West Coast tour for October.

"That was done without my knowledge, which is my contention in my suit," Thomas said. "I would guess from everything going on that Melinda made the decision Brian was going to tour rather than record."

"That's ridiculous," said a Wilson spokesperson. "Brian has a booking agency. He used to have William Morris, and he's had the Agency Group since the Japan dates. Melinda isn't booking the dates."

Neither Brian nor Melinda Wilson would comment.

Over time, Melinda became more involved with the Wilson-Thomas partnership, Thomas said. "Especially since Carl [Brian's brother] and Brian's mom died [both in 1998], Melinda's involvement dramatically increased," Thomas said. "I'm not sure it's Melinda's place to be in the studio with us.

"Toward the end of the relationship, I wasn't convinced that Brian was making the musical decisions."
This part really depresses me.  As a music preservationist, it's just awful to hear.  Like the Sweet Insanity tapes presumably being stolen, and a rock and roll album being possibly destroyed?? 

As for the Melinda thing, this is news to me...  Perhaps Brian got bored with Joe Thomas?  I don't think Melinda would manipulate BW like that...  Just pettiness and fishiness...  Guess we'll never know.


Title: Re: Brian Wilson & Joe Thomas
Post by: Bittersweet-Insanity on September 29, 2017, 01:10:52 AM
from http://records2.tripod.com/JulyAugSept1999.htm

Daily Music Update
Edited by Julie Taraska / August 24, 1999, 11:00 a.m. EDT
 

Brian Wilson Sues Business Partner

Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson has filed a suit to dissolve a 1997 joint venture with Joe Thomas, who co-produced Wilson's last album, the 1998 Giant release "Imagination."

The suit, filed yesterday by Wilson's wife and conservator Melinda in California Superior Court in L.A., alleges that Thomas "has used his association with Wilson to further his own interests and/or raise his profile in the entertainment industry and has, at every turn, attempted to inject himself into Wilson's professional life and career and reap profits not commensurate with [his] contributions."

The action alleges that Thomas sought to insert himself into a second album project with Wilson and tried to reap half the profits from Wilson's 1999 concert tour. The suit also seeks a declaration that Wilson is free to record his next album and engage in other music business activities without Thomas' participation, and compensatory and punitive damages to be determined.
Thomas could not be reached for comment.


Updated 9/3/99

Joe Thomas, co-producer of Brian Wilson's 1998 album "Imagination," has filed a countersuit against Melinda Wilson, the musician's wife and conservator. The action,
      filed Aug. 27 in Cook County (Ill.) Circuit Court, answers an Aug. 23 suit filed in L.A. by Melinda on Brian's behalf, which seeks to dissolve a 1997 joint venture between Brian Wilson and Thomas.

Thomas' suit -- which seeks unspecified general damages and
$5 million in punitive damages -- claims that Melinda Wilson
"schemed against and manipulated both Brian and Joe, and has misused [the joint venture] in order to secure the full benefit of Brian's star-status for herself." The complaint also alleges that she demanded Thomas take fewer writing credits and a smaller share of the publishing.

 According to the suit, she canceled a tour in support of the
Giant Records album, and sought to "break Brian's ties with
Giant." When Thomas asked why she canceled the tour, she
allegedly replied, "I'm going to f--- that little Jew," referring to Giant founder Irving Azoff.

Melinda Wilson also purportedly sabotaged the production of a second album, for which Thomas had been offered substantial advances, by scheduling Japanese concert dates and secretly organizing a fall 1999 tour. In addition, she allegedly made defamatory comments about Thomas to tour personnel.

A Wilson spokeswoman had no comment.


Title: Re: Brian Wilson & Joe Thomas
Post by: Magic Transistor Radio on October 04, 2017, 08:01:05 AM
All I have to say about Joe Thomas is that the albums  was most involved in were very bland in my opinion. With the exception of No Pier Pressure. I think the collaborator that got the most out of Brian was Andy Paley. With the exception of That Lucky Old Sun which he worked on with Van Dyke Parks and  other  whom I won't name. Finding out that Brian finished the production of NPP perhaps explains why it is more interesting than other Joe Thomas productions.


Title: Re: Brian Wilson & Joe Thomas
Post by: HeyJude on October 04, 2017, 12:37:13 PM
But the thing with Joe Thomas is that he actually gets stuff made, done, and out there released for people to buy.

That to me has always been his best attribute, as both a producer and apparently a business guy (on C50 anyway). He has gotten multiple Brian albums out, and in 2012 got a studio album, a tour, a live CD, a DVD/Blu-ray documentary, and a live DVD/Blu-ray all out within the span of about 8 months.

Meanwhile, the Paley sessions have languished in the vaults for two decades, with Brian occasionally rifling through the material to pad out new projects.

I think a 1995 Beach Boys album based on those Paley sessions would have been great, and a BW or BB album based on that would have been preferable to "Imagination."

But Thomas being a sympathetic ear for Brian in the studio and being able to push projects to fruition is an important aspect.

I always got the sense that Thomas seems like a nice guy, and has a *personality* that Brian has liked in the studio more than not, and I appreciate (even if it went down the path of overly-slick AC sound) that Thomas has mentioned in interviews that he doesn't act like a fawning superfan around Brian.

There are a dozen other producers and scenarios I'd prefer for Brian over Joe Thomas, but he has jump-started some of the most important and enjoyable things of the last couple decades in the BB universe (C50 wouldn't have happened without Thomas, and one could argue his '98 work with Brian is what allowed Brian's touring to take off in 1999).

Ideally, Thomas would continue in more of a business capacity with Brian the way he did on C50, while allowing Brian to do some stripped-down stuff on his own.

I'd love for Brian to work with Jeff Lynne. But better yet, an album of just Brian and a piano. Done. Record a few dozen songs, stitch it all together, and it could be amazing.


Title: Re: Brian Wilson & Joe Thomas
Post by: MrRobinsonsFather on October 04, 2017, 04:57:06 PM
The Imagination DVD actually gives a decent idea of the approach Joe presumably had in mind. Footage from the 1998 St. Charles show features a very AC approach -- along with Bruce and Christopher Cross auditioning for the Jeff Foslett role ...

Always thought Cross would of been the perfect fit. https://youtu.be/SsmGtwtwh9E Listen to him join the guys in Kokomo he nails it. Very similar to Carl.


Title: Re: Brian Wilson & Joe Thomas
Post by: urbanite on October 05, 2017, 12:34:03 PM
"I know one of the guitar players who played on Run James Run as well as another song on NPP. As of just a few months ago, he worked with both Brian and Thomas together at separate studios! I asked how. Something that  nobody thought of yet was his answer. He said  when they were recording,Brian was at Oceanway and Joe was at another studio with the guitar player, presumably in Nashville. He said Brian and Joe were on Skype laughing it up and that Brian seemed very involved and comfortable communicating with  Thomas on the   TV monitor they set up in the studio."

So does this mean that Brian Wilson is the process currently of recording a new album?


Title: Re: Brian Wilson & Joe Thomas
Post by: timbnash68 on October 06, 2017, 12:54:38 PM
Looks like they worked on more than one song! Thats all the intel i have.


Title: Re: Brian Wilson & Joe Thomas
Post by: thorgil on October 09, 2017, 03:43:53 AM
But the thing with Joe Thomas is that he actually gets stuff made, done, and out there released for people to buy.

That to me has always been his best attribute, as both a producer and apparently a business guy (on C50 anyway). He has gotten multiple Brian albums out, and in 2012 got a studio album, a tour, a live CD, a DVD/Blu-ray documentary, and a live DVD/Blu-ray all out within the span of about 8 months.

Meanwhile, the Paley sessions have languished in the vaults for two decades, with Brian occasionally rifling through the material to pad out new projects.

I think a 1995 Beach Boys album based on those Paley sessions would have been great, and a BW or BB album based on that would have been preferable to "Imagination."

But Thomas being a sympathetic ear for Brian in the studio and being able to push projects to fruition is an important aspect.

I always got the sense that Thomas seems like a nice guy, and has a *personality* that Brian has liked in the studio more than not, and I appreciate (even if it went down the path of overly-slick AC sound) that Thomas has mentioned in interviews that he doesn't act like a fawning superfan around Brian.

There are a dozen other producers and scenarios I'd prefer for Brian over Joe Thomas, but he has jump-started some of the most important and enjoyable things of the last couple decades in the BB universe (C50 wouldn't have happened without Thomas, and one could argue his '98 work with Brian is what allowed Brian's touring to take off in 1999).

Ideally, Thomas would continue in more of a business capacity with Brian the way he did on C50, while allowing Brian to do some stripped-down stuff on his own.

I'd love for Brian to work with Jeff Lynne. But better yet, an album of just Brian and a piano. Done. Record a few dozen songs, stitch it all together, and it could be amazing.
O yes, just Brian and a piano. I think we'd get about a third very forgettable things and a third so-so but pleasant pieces. But the other third would be mind-blowing.


Title: Re: Brian Wilson & Joe Thomas
Post by: HeyJude on October 09, 2017, 08:07:53 AM
O yes, just Brian and a piano. I think we'd get about a third very forgettable things and a third so-so but pleasant pieces. But the other third would be mind-blowing.

The idea would be to hopefully leave Brian fully to his own devices in terms of recording, but then still have others help with the editorial process in terms of what to include on a CD. It wouldn't have to be as loose and meandering as the "Hamburger/Cocaine Tapes", etc.


Title: Re: Brian Wilson & Joe Thomas
Post by: guitarfool2002 on October 09, 2017, 08:23:11 AM
What if an album produced like NPP was exactly what Brian wanted his music to sound like as of 2015? What if he wants that sound in, say, 2017? Just a thought.

Don't misunderstand, I'd love a fly-on-the-wall Brian solo at piano kind of thing, but in all seriousness, would that stripped down vibe sustain an entire album? Brian's music is about harmonies and stacking/layering of voices and tracks. That's his bag, he's been known for it and doing it for over 55 years, and he's better than anyone at doing it. Part of me says asking for something other than what the man does naturally would be like asking Brian May (or even EVH) to only play acoustic guitar on an upcoming tour or album and leave his trademark sounds and trademark homemade guitar in storage. Would it be good? Sure - but it's taking away the man's sonic calling cards. Maybe a great novelty, a mini-set, but not a full album of it.


Title: Re: Brian Wilson & Joe Thomas
Post by: HeyJude on October 09, 2017, 08:50:43 AM
I don't think anybody is suggesting someone force Brian to do a project he doesn't want to do. But artists can (and I believe should) try to stretch a bit and listen to ideas that fans and other colleagues put out there.

Many times an artist (an music-maker, a filmmaker, a writer, etc.) has had others suggest things to them, and they might reply with a "that sounds like an interesting idea that I hadn't thought of; maybe I'll try it."

Many artists have done new music (and re-recordings, etc.) in solo, stripped-down fashion.

Ironically, if I were advising Brian to try that approach, it wouldn't even be primarily because that's the *sound* or *arrangement* I want. It would be more to get it as "pure Brian" as possible. By saying that, I'm not suggesting NPP isn't what Brian wanted to put out. Rather, even in a collaborative, friendly setting, we're hearing Brian's vision along with other musicians, singers, producers, etc.

As I've often said, it's the difference between "Message Man" and a lot of the other stuff on TLOS. I just think it would be fun to have an album of "Message Man" type stuff. I'm not even a huge fan of that song. But stuff *like* that. Pure Brian without Scott Bennett of Joe Thomas or anybody else. Not because they wrote poor material, or because I think they butted in when Brian didn't want them. But rather simply because it's cool to hear pure, 100% undiluted Brian.

I do *also* think from an arrangement/style point of view it would be interesting to hear Brian divest himself of the ornate production with the bass harmonicas and sleigh bells. Again, he can and should do whatever he wants. But many artists have jumped around and done more and less "produced" sounding material. I advocate for a "Brian and a piano" album, and/or a "Brian in the style of a Rick Rubin-produced Tom Petty album" more as simply another way to hear Brian, a new interesting way that isn't gimmicky. I'm not saying Brian *should* do this, but rather than I and some others would dig hearing it, and it wouldn't be *wrong* of Brian to field other ideas/methods, even at this late stage in his career. By making these suggestions, it isn't to betray Brian's sound or not trust his instincts.


Title: Re: Brian Wilson & Joe Thomas
Post by: Jim V. on October 10, 2017, 07:11:05 AM
I advocate for a "Brian and a piano" album, and/or a "Brian in the style of a Rick Rubin-produced Tom Petty album" more as simply another way to hear Brian, a new interesting way that isn't gimmicky.

HeyJude, I'm sure you know that I think you're posting is probably the most nuanced of all those in The Beach Boys fan community, but here is one area where I have an issue with what you're saying. I actually think that the whole, "bring in Rick Rubin and strip things back" thing that Johnny Cash, Weezer, Neil Diamond, Tom Petty and Metallica have all done could be looked at in it's own way as seemingly "gimmicky" as starting a new album with a wordless, "Our Prayer"-like chorale which moves onto a kitchen sink production replete with sleigh bells, woodblocks and bass harmonicas, which then ends with a suite.


Title: Re: Brian Wilson & Joe Thomas
Post by: KDS on October 10, 2017, 07:18:43 AM


The one reservation I'd have with a stripped back Brian and piano type album is the quality of Brian's vocals.  Granted, I don't really dislike Brian's current voice.  Considering that he destroyed his vocals 40 years ago, it's a near miracle he sounds as good as he does.  But, his voice might suffer a bit without the big arrangements and harmonies. 


Title: Re: Brian Wilson & Joe Thomas
Post by: HeyJude on October 10, 2017, 07:30:00 AM
I advocate for a "Brian and a piano" album, and/or a "Brian in the style of a Rick Rubin-produced Tom Petty album" more as simply another way to hear Brian, a new interesting way that isn't gimmicky.

HeyJude, I'm sure you know that I think you're posting is probably the most nuanced of all those in The Beach Boys fan community, but here is one area where I have an issue with what you're saying. I actually think that the whole, "bring in Rick Rubin and strip things back" thing that Johnny Cash, Weezer, Neil Diamond, Tom Petty and Metallica have all done could be looked at in it's own way as seemingly "gimmicky" as starting a new album with a wordless, "Our Prayer"-like chorale which moves onto a kitchen sink production replete with sleigh bells, woodblocks and bass harmonicas, which then ends with a suite.

True (or, at least, it would have been true back maybe ten years ago), but I think it would be all down to what the motives are. If Brian decided he had no actual interest in a Johnny Cash/Rick Rubin sort of production ethos for an album project but did it to simply "jump on the bandwagon", then it would be (or would have been) seen as potentially gimmicky.

But I'm looking at it more from the point of view of wanting to hear a particular sound from a Brian record (that being something that is less adorned, simpler, natural/dry sounding, etc.) and then just looking for a relatively well-known thing to use as an example (Rubin, etc.).

There are potential templates in Brian's catalog to draw from for what I'd like to see. Something like "This Beautiful Day" gets closer to what I'd like to hear. I wouldn't even mind harmony stacks; it doesn't literally have to be solo Brian piano and voice (though that would be cool too). But if you take "This Beautiful Day", mix it even a little more dry, remove the Mark Isham noodling, something like *that* is what could be cool for an album.


Title: Re: Brian Wilson & Joe Thomas
Post by: HeyJude on October 10, 2017, 07:32:33 AM


The one reservation I'd have with a stripped back Brian and piano type album is the quality of Brian's vocals.  Granted, I don't really dislike Brian's current voice.  Considering that he destroyed his vocals 40 years ago, it's a near miracle he sounds as good as he does.  But, his voice might suffer a bit without the big arrangements and harmonies. 

As long as it's honest, rough/gruff, etc. is fine with me. Again, "This Beautiful Day" is a good example of this. Full-voiced, no autotune, he even reaches for a real-sounding falsetto (one that doesn't sound like Jeff or Matt or anybody doubling him), and it sounds like a 75-year-old guy. I'm fine with that.

The only guy left among the principles that doesn't sound 75 is Al, who freakishly sounds the same as he did 30 years ago. But he's a fluke (a fluke that someone should be capitalizing on much more).


Title: Re: Brian Wilson & Joe Thomas
Post by: guitarfool2002 on October 10, 2017, 08:51:19 AM
Worth noting is going back (again) to the classic era of the Beach Boys and Brian's productions, when have Brian's productions been simpler, less adorned, dry sounding, etc? His instrument of choice second to vocals has always been the studio and studio technology and techniques, and especially in the glory years of 63-67 he made full use of studio technology to record and mix his tracks, including some experiments and techniques that few if any were using at that time in the same way. He was doing quite a few of the techniques I saw mentioned this weekend on that PBS Sgt. Pepper documentary (excellent, btw...even essential viewing) months before Pepper as any number of session reels can confirm. And in turn, The Beatles and Emerick/Sir George were doing revolutionary things as well.

If there was something new on the scene, or even a new way to shape sound using existing technology, Brian was doing it or at least trying it and often before it caught on industry-wide. Producers and musicians especially from 63-67 including the Beatles were trying to figure out how Brian was making and mixing these hit records and getting "that sound", and that sound which was selling all those records was far from dry and simple in terms of how the records were being made and mixed.

So I might suggest again that taking away the studio techniques that he's been using since the early 60's would be like sending Eddie Van Halen on tour with an acoustic guitar. Interesting, perhaps...but it's taking away the guy's sonic trademarks and calling cards.


Title: Re: Brian Wilson & Joe Thomas
Post by: ♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇 on October 10, 2017, 10:12:26 AM


The one reservation I'd have with a stripped back Brian and piano type album is the quality of Brian's vocals.  Granted, I don't really dislike Brian's current voice.  Considering that he destroyed his vocals 40 years ago, it's a near miracle he sounds as good as he does.  But, his voice might suffer a bit without the big arrangements and harmonies.  

As long as it's honest, rough/gruff, etc. is fine with me. Again, "This Beautiful Day" is a good example of this. Full-voiced, no autotune, he even reaches for a real-sounding falsetto (one that doesn't sound like Jeff or Matt or anybody doubling him), and it sounds like a 75-year-old guy. I'm fine with that.

The only guy left among the principles that doesn't sound 75 is Al, who freakishly sounds the same as he did 30 years ago. But he's a fluke (a fluke that someone should be capitalizing on much more).

I'm with you on this...actually the song he did on the Buddy Holly tribute is a nice example


Title: Re: Brian Wilson & Joe Thomas
Post by: HeyJude on October 10, 2017, 12:08:08 PM
To me, Brian's first and foremost talent and trademark is chords and melody, and his vocal performances and arrangements. I don't like "Today" or "Pet Sounds" first and foremost for their production sound. I like the *songs.*

So an album of Brian and a piano isn't like some far-out, gimmicky sort of prospect. It's basically a high-quality, better-sounding version of Brian's circa 1976 Love You/Adult Child demo reel. That demo tape isn't just historically interesting; it's transcendent and pure in a way even the actual "Love You" album isn't.

To have Brian do *one project* where it's just him and a piano, and maybe a bit of additional accompaniment and potentially still vocal stacks, isn't some exercise in taking away his tools. It's another way to cut to the core of what he does. He is, to me, firstly a music-maker above all else. "Message Man" isn't a wall of sound. "Let It Shine" is a Jeff Lynne record with Brian doing all the vocals. It isn't a big deal for Brian to not make everything sound like "In the Back of My Mind" or "Wouldn't It Be Nice." He's done it, and could easily do it again.

Far more gimmicky than a "Brian and His Piano - The Album" full of new songs (and hey, maybe even some re-makes too) are covers albums like the Disney album. I like the Disney album just fine, I'm not knocking it.

But a "Brian's wall of sound" album filled with Little Richard covers doesn't interest me nearly as much as a "Brian and his piano" album.

As I've said, I'm not suggesting someone not let Brian do what he wants to do. I'm suggesting that someone suggest something like this to him, and I'm suggesting that he perhaps embrace such an idea.


Title: Re: Brian Wilson & Joe Thomas
Post by: guitarfool2002 on October 10, 2017, 08:08:31 PM
To me, Brian's first and foremost talent and trademark is chords and melody, and his vocal performances and arrangements. I don't like "Today" or "Pet Sounds" first and foremost for their production sound. I like the *songs.*

So an album of Brian and a piano isn't like some far-out, gimmicky sort of prospect. It's basically a high-quality, better-sounding version of Brian's circa 1976 Love You/Adult Child demo reel. That demo tape isn't just historically interesting; it's transcendent and pure in a way even the actual "Love You" album isn't.

To have Brian do *one project* where it's just him and a piano, and maybe a bit of additional accompaniment and potentially still vocal stacks, isn't some exercise in taking away his tools. It's another way to cut to the core of what he does. He is, to me, firstly a music-maker above all else. "Message Man" isn't a wall of sound. "Let It Shine" is a Jeff Lynne record with Brian doing all the vocals. It isn't a big deal for Brian to not make everything sound like "In the Back of My Mind" or "Wouldn't It Be Nice." He's done it, and could easily do it again.

Far more gimmicky than a "Brian and His Piano - The Album" full of new songs (and hey, maybe even some re-makes too) are covers albums like the Disney album. I like the Disney album just fine, I'm not knocking it.

But a "Brian's wall of sound" album filled with Little Richard covers doesn't interest me nearly as much as a "Brian and his piano" album.

As I've said, I'm not suggesting someone not let Brian do what he wants to do. I'm suggesting that someone suggest something like this to him, and I'm suggesting that he perhaps embrace such an idea.

There is the difference in how people view Brian and his music. For me and for many musicians or those who record music in some capacity, it's the sound of his records alongside the songs. The songs need a vehicle to drive them to greater heights...imagine California Girls without that intro, imagine WIBN without that intro, GOK without a French Horn or the swirling vocal round near the end, or the sleighbells, imagine GV without using a Theremin and without the vocal surges and drop-outs...that's production elevating a great song into an all-time classic.

Then imagine those records not sounding exactly like they did and instead sounding like they were cut in a guy's basement with digital effects processor reverb and the like...not the same.

They're part and parcel of the same notion, what makes a record a classic. It's not always the song itself. And Brian had a unique touch as producer and in the studio in general of knowing what to add to a recording to make it sparkle and jump out of the speakers. It's his calling card.

That's why everyone in the 60's making records was asking "how does he do it?". And they didn't only mean write those amazing songs.


Title: Re: Brian Wilson & Joe Thomas
Post by: guitarfool2002 on October 10, 2017, 08:16:56 PM
If you were to do the Rick Rubin route on a Brian project, modeled after the obvious Johnny Cash and similar projects, it's putting Brian the artist into a medium where he has simply never been comfortable nor has been known for. I think the power and brilliance of the '67 Surf's Up Inside Pop video and the various vocal-piano takes have put a different mindset out there along with expectations different than reality. Ultimately one was done strictly for the camera, and the others were demos and not what Brian intended for the final product. Yet they're so damn good, it's naturally difficult not to say "we want more more more or that!". Then look at him on SNL in '76 doing GV...it's not his bag.

I think the guy thrives on other musicians being around him and working together to make music, and on pretty large scales both in size and sonically. From what I've heard he feeds off of the energy of a room, and that's also why having Jeff Lynne as producer might not work as well across a full album versus another single track. It's just a different mindset.

And keep in mind too...I think Imagination, BW '88, and a few other individual projects and songs suffered because of the production, and in some of the less successful cases, it felt like Brian was being shoehorned into a style or sound in the studio other than his own. I think NPP had a more solid balance, as did the Christmas album...it felt more like a Brian production. And neither was a basic surf band with gobs o' reverb kind of production.


Title: Re: Brian Wilson & Joe Thomas
Post by: KDS on October 11, 2017, 05:30:26 AM
In regards to production on BW solo albums, I tend to prefer the Christmas Album, TLOS, and Gershwin. 


Title: Re: Brian Wilson & Joe Thomas
Post by: Bicyclerider on October 11, 2017, 07:03:20 AM
"Worth noting is going back (again) to the classic era of the Beach Boys and Brian's productions, when have Brian's productions been simpler, less adorned, dry sounding, etc?"

Smiley Smile, Wild Honey, some of the Smile stuff (Wind Chimes verse remake, Child remake, some of the Vegetables April sessions, etc.).  Maybe not what you're referring to as the "classic" era though.


Title: Re: Brian Wilson & Joe Thomas
Post by: HeyJude on October 11, 2017, 08:07:46 AM
I think Brian is very comfortable just singing and playing a piano.

So, while I'm not suggesting someone surreptitiously record him and put the recording out without his permission or something, one idea would be to capture Brian in such a realm, only with new songs, and release it.

Something like some of the tracks on Colin Hay's "Man at Work." But new songs.

Think of something like McCartney doing the "McCartney II" solo recordings in 1979, and the story he often told of kind of recording the songs for kicks but then playing the recordings to others and being told he should make it his next album.

I guess what it would be for Brian would be almost a sort of "accidental album." Obviously not literally (though he could certainly put an album or boxed set out of his actual demos from past years), but to simply capture pure Brian.

I think Rubin or Lynne coming in and helming an album with their own musicians coming in and all of that would be far less likely and far more complicated (more Rubin than Lynne, since Lynne would probably play and sing everything that Brian didn't on a theoretical album; Lynne even does his own drums now). I don't think that would be a bad idea either, and I don't think Brian actually, gasp!, deferring to someone in isolated instances in the musical realm just for the fun of it or to do something a little different would be a bad thing. He has done it before.


Title: Re: Brian Wilson & Joe Thomas
Post by: guitarfool2002 on October 11, 2017, 08:34:08 AM
Maybe a decade ago or more, I was saying Brian should do a jazz album. I remember whatever board that was on or whatever group (Yahoo Groups? SmileShop? can't remember) some of the reactions to that were less than enthusiastic. I guess in my mind, I thought it would be cool because Brian has had a pretty strong but not overt jazz influence going back to his teenage years when he was overdubbing Freshmen style vocal arrangements on his reel to reel. What if he were to do, like, an actual jazz album? I guess I had visions of him at the piano, maybe a jazz trio or quartet backing him, upright bass-brushes on drums, maybe even a Hammond B3 here or there.

Then in 2010 Brian does the Gershwin album. That was his version of a jazz album. Not at all what I would have anticipated, not at all what I pictured in my own "what if?" scenario, but it ended up being one of the best solo efforts he's ever released. He was literally "all in" and how cool to have the Gershwin estate offer unfinished material for Brian to work up? It's a great album. It could have been even better or sounded at least different had certain things happened, but that's another story...lol.

So I guess the point is, maybe the Gershwin project was an example of letting Brian Wilson put his own stamp on an album project...people like me (all 4 of us perhaps) who wondered what a Brian jazz album would sound like got something more unique than we would have imagined. It was far from a standard jazz album, and I'm guessing far from what an outside producer from the jazz world would have done with such a project, but it worked and it's pure Brian.

And note too that the Gershwin album in the arrangements and overall "feel" is that layered-stacked wall of tracks kind of production. Far from the small jazz combo I would have pictured, but when it all got added up, it was exactly what the project needed and there is no mistaking this is a BW album.

And I recall also having a conversation in the late 90's after Imagination on getting young artists from the alternative/indie scene to work with Brian, kind of like they tried and failed to do in the mid 90's post-Landy. You know, artists more into Smile and Smiley Smile and all the more experimental stuff than Be True To Your School. I was one of those musicians, same age group too, and at first I thought "yeah, cool!". Get Brian back into the experiments, found sounds, odd instruments, etc.

And it was pointed out how potentially uncomfortable or even odd it would be to have Brian go into a studio with someone 25-30 years his junior and have that indie musician think it necessary to fill the studio with police sirens, typewriters, hammers and saws, wine glasses filled with water, Fisher Price toy instruments, detuned guitars, etc.

It kind of clicked that there is a difference between the idealized or imagined version of how Brian made music decades ago versus the reality of the present day. And while it would be fun as an exercise to see what happened, would a successful man who has decades of professional and life experience be at all interested in cutting full records with a producer surrounded by toys and typewriters even though some fans would think that would be spectacular and a return to the cool music days?

Maybe it would, but I doubt it would lead to anything beyond a curio...just like when they tried to bring back the Wrecking Crew for that session at Western in the early 80's trying to recapture the magic and it just fell flat.


Title: Re: Brian Wilson & Joe Thomas
Post by: SMiLE Brian on October 11, 2017, 09:31:55 AM
Didn't BW say Sean O'Hagan "was doing stuff I did 30 years ago"?


Title: Re: Brian Wilson & Joe Thomas
Post by: guitarfool2002 on October 11, 2017, 09:42:06 AM
Didn't BW say Sean O'Hagan "was doing stuff I did 30 years ago"?

I wouldn't be surprised! Mostly because it's true and it's a similar comment to many I have heard from other pioneers in the rock world. I also think of a story I heard about drummer Earl Palmer...one of the absolute, 100% fathers of rock and roll who invented it more or less...when a young producer tried to instruct Earl on what to play, Earl said "Son, I invented this sh*t."

Heard the same about Black Sabbath's Tony Iommi when Rick Rubin's studio team tried to go 100% vintage and authentic for the "reunion" Sabbath project Rubin produced, and Iommi had to remind them he invented the tones and sounds they were trying to get him to use and school them on why the vintage gear they had lined up for him was replaced by gear Tony could actually rely on...Great stuff.

So the idealism and fantasy turn back the clock ethic isn't always reality especially with legacy artists who really did invent the fetish-y things the younger musicians go nuts for and want to recapture.


Title: Re: Brian Wilson & Joe Thomas
Post by: Jim V. on October 11, 2017, 10:02:18 AM
Maybe it would, but I doubt it would lead to anything beyond a curio...just like when they tried to bring back the Wrecking Crew for that session at Western in the early 80's trying to recapture the magic and it just fell flat.

However, also recall when Brian did the mini reunion type deal with Hal Blaine and Carol Kaye for "Everything I Need"....

....and remember how beautiful that turned out. Well at least the "Brian" version - before Joe Thomas and/or Brian's daughters messed with it and maybe it adult contemporary cheese.


Title: Re: Brian Wilson & Joe Thomas
Post by: guitarfool2002 on October 11, 2017, 10:12:45 AM
Maybe it would, but I doubt it would lead to anything beyond a curio...just like when they tried to bring back the Wrecking Crew for that session at Western in the early 80's trying to recapture the magic and it just fell flat.

However, also recall when Brian did the mini reunion type deal with Hal Blaine and Carol Kaye for "Everything I Need"....

....and remember how beautiful that turned out. Well at least the "Brian" version - before Joe Thomas and/or Brian's daughters messed with it and maybe it adult contemporary cheese.

Check out Hal Blaine's comments about those sessions - To paraphrase, Hal remembered going in and cutting some amazing tracks, and being upset when there was a producer who thought putting tons of percussion and extra sounds after the fact would be more "authentic", and it ruined the track in Hal's opinion.

So it's a double-edged sword, right? Bring in a Jeff Lynne or Sean O'Hagan or name another producer and they may think adding all that stuff is a necessity. Bring in a Rick Rubin and he may bring in an exact replica of Brian's white Baldwin organ and set up a single C12 or U47 mic through a vintage LA-2A and roll tape on Brian playing solo. All of it may be fine, but...maybe it's probably just best to let Brian decide what sounds go on the tracks, whether it be sparse or layered, and not try to put him in Animal Collective's or Wayne Coyne's fantasy of what the Smile sessions were like or conversely what a producer in the 90's assumed would be "Brian's Sound" by adding exorbitant amounts of percussion and bells-whistles which clouded the actual track which was layered enough.


Title: Re: Brian Wilson & Joe Thomas
Post by: guitarfool2002 on October 11, 2017, 10:14:38 AM
Edit...I *think* it was those sessions Hal was describing, it's been awhile, I may be thinking of another deal. Well, whatever Brian's daughters and he did together that ended up full of extraneous percussion and noises because a producer wanted it to sound more like the mid 60's...that's what Hal was describing!  :lol


Title: Re: Brian Wilson & Joe Thomas
Post by: RubberSoul13 on October 11, 2017, 10:22:00 AM
The Imagination DVD actually gives a decent idea of the approach Joe presumably had in mind. Footage from the 1998 St. Charles show features a very AC approach -- along with Bruce and Christopher Cross auditioning for the Jeff Foslett role ...

I have no idea what you're talking about (not doubting it, just confused)...are you referring to Bruce as in Bruce Johnston? As in, Bruce Johnston showed interest in being with Brian Wilson over Mike Love?


Title: Re: Brian Wilson & Joe Thomas
Post by: Wirestone on October 11, 2017, 10:31:10 AM
The Imagination DVD actually gives a decent idea of the approach Joe presumably had in mind. Footage from the 1998 St. Charles show features a very AC approach -- along with Bruce and Christopher Cross auditioning for the Jeff Foslett role ...

I have no idea what you're talking about (not doubting it, just confused)...are you referring to Bruce as in Bruce Johnston? As in, Bruce Johnston showed interest in being with Brian Wilson over Mike Love?

Sorry, I meant that Cross was auditioning for the role. Bruce did perform at the concert, but it was presumably a gesture of support.


Title: Re: Brian Wilson & Joe Thomas
Post by: RubberSoul13 on October 11, 2017, 12:54:27 PM
Gotcha...I can't quite picture Bruce in Brian's lineup!


Title: Re: Brian Wilson & Joe Thomas
Post by: HeyJude on October 11, 2017, 01:03:45 PM
I think you'd more likely see Nelson Bragg join Mike's band than Bruce joining Brian's. For numerous reasons.


Title: Re: Brian Wilson & Joe Thomas
Post by: RubberSoul13 on October 11, 2017, 07:50:11 PM
I think you'd more likely see Nelson Bragg join Mike's band than Bruce joining Brian's. For numerous reasons.

 :lol :lol :lol

Has Bruce's role in the late 90's ever been explored or explained? Was it ever a thought for him to NOT continue with Mike? Obviously it behooves Mike to have him (and at the time David) to up the "official member" tally, but I can't picture Bruce doing anything else in the genre, like attempting to have his own outfit like Alan. If he were to hang it up then, I think he'd have gone in a totally different direction again...maybe classical composition, modern record production (again), or just simply surfing.

What a strange, strange asshole he is.


Title: Re: Brian Wilson & Joe Thomas
Post by: NateRuvin on October 11, 2017, 09:39:51 PM
I would love if Bruce was in Brian's band (well, if he wan't so crucial to Mike's band, as we saw during his absence) because he sang so many iconic parts on a lot of classics like California Girls ("I wish they all could be" on the outro) and the coda of God Only Knows. I also think his musicality would be displayed more if he maybe played keys or bass, instead of clapping. I just think having Bruce in Brian's band (which is taken more seriously as an artistic performance) would push Bruce to do more than clap and wave. Imagine Bruce playing the organ solo on Wild Honey and then having Blondie play his guitar solo!!!!!!!!!  >:D >:D >:D


Title: Re: Brian Wilson & Joe Thomas
Post by: guitarfool2002 on October 11, 2017, 09:45:09 PM
The sad part is, for the fans as Bruce already made his choices and has to deal with them good or bad, go back to those late 60's and early 70's live concerts. Bruce is one hell of a keyboard man. He's a terrific Hammond B3 player. Any keyboards actually, he has that great feel...I'd love to hear Bruce let rip on a B3 or electric piano solo, but he never does. Hasn't for many years that I'm aware of.

And fans have only seen him clowning, adjusting mic stands, clapping, egging on the crowd to cheer Mike's silly schtick, etc. He's a great musician with a fantastic resume and a lot of rock history in his front pocket, and he became Mike's set-up man, a second banana.

Sad, really. But choices were made.


Title: Re: Brian Wilson & Joe Thomas
Post by: HeyJude on October 12, 2017, 06:50:15 AM
I would love if Bruce was in Brian's band (well, if he wan't so crucial to Mike's band, as we saw during his absence) because he sang so many iconic parts on a lot of classics like California Girls ("I wish they all could be" on the outro) and the coda of God Only Knows. I also think his musicality would be displayed more if he maybe played keys or bass, instead of clapping. I just think having Bruce in Brian's band (which is taken more seriously as an artistic performance) would push Bruce to do more than clap and wave. Imagine Bruce playing the organ solo on Wild Honey and then having Blondie play his guitar solo!!!!!!!!!  >:D >:D >:D

Bruce was essentially in Brian's touring band in 2012, and I think all we learned is that when there are *even more* musicians on stage than there already are in the Mike/Bruce configuration, Bruce is even less likely to actually do much musically on stage. I'm glad Bruce was there; "Disney Girls" was cool to hear on C50, especially with Brian's guys backing the song, and I do think Bruce was a key part of some of the vocal mix.

But he hasn't been an integral part of the actual musical bed of BB shows since the early-mid 80s.

I don't know if Bruce has picked up a bass and actually played it *live* on stage (as opposed to miming) in over 30+ years. The last time I could say that dropping Bruce out of the live mix would have severely changed the sound coming from the stage would be the late 60s/early 70s when he *was* regularly playing bass and playing the only organ/piano on stage.


Title: Re: Brian Wilson & Joe Thomas
Post by: KDS on October 12, 2017, 06:53:27 AM
I would love if Bruce was in Brian's band (well, if he wan't so crucial to Mike's band, as we saw during his absence) because he sang so many iconic parts on a lot of classics like California Girls ("I wish they all could be" on the outro) and the coda of God Only Knows. I also think his musicality would be displayed more if he maybe played keys or bass, instead of clapping. I just think having Bruce in Brian's band (which is taken more seriously as an artistic performance) would push Bruce to do more than clap and wave. Imagine Bruce playing the organ solo on Wild Honey and then having Blondie play his guitar solo!!!!!!!!!  >:D >:D >:D

I could really only see it happening if Mike retired.  But, I think it would be pretty cool to have maybe something like At My Window as a surprise song in BW sets. 


Title: Re: Brian Wilson & Joe Thomas
Post by: HeyJude on October 12, 2017, 06:56:54 AM
I think you'd more likely see Nelson Bragg join Mike's band than Bruce joining Brian's. For numerous reasons.

 :lol :lol :lol

Has Bruce's role in the late 90's ever been explored or explained? Was it ever a thought for him to NOT continue with Mike? Obviously it behooves Mike to have him (and at the time David) to up the "official member" tally, but I can't picture Bruce doing anything else in the genre, like attempting to have his own outfit like Alan. If he were to hang it up then, I think he'd have gone in a totally different direction again...maybe classical composition, modern record production (again), or just simply surfing.

What a strange, strange asshole he is.

From Bruce's point of view, his decision in 1998 was *super* simple. Go with the guy who's going to continue consistently touring and the only guy who's going to hand you a regular paycheck (not to mention whatever other perks these guys dig about touring, the traveling, groupies, whatever).

Back in 1998, Mike I think still needed a certain number of BBs to more easily continue on with a license. Hence bringing David Marks in as well. I think he needed either Al or Bruce. It was probably an easy choice for Mike. Bruce would be cheaper, isn't a corporate member and therefore doesn't really have any say in anything.

Regarding Bruce fronting his own outfit or anything of that nature, the guy has shown ZERO motivation/aspiration to do much of anything in music for 30-40 years. He has hardly ever even done lead vocals at actual BB shows, and has even acknowledged in interviews that his own keyboard playing on stage is done more to accompany *himself* than it is to be a prominent part of the actual band sound/mix. He hasn't even done a solo vanity project (closest he came to that was the "Symphonic Sounds" thing in 1998). I can't imagine Bruce trying to front a band on stage considering he *sometimes* sings a lead or two in concert with Mike.

I think way back in the previous decade, Bruce mentioned online that he had a bunch of demos and made some vague reference to possibly releasing those on a CD. That was like 15 or so years ago.

It doesn't even appear Bruce often sings on Mike's solo recordings. Is he anywhere on the 2004 "Unleash the Love" album stuff? Doesn't sound like it.


Title: Re: Brian Wilson & Joe Thomas
Post by: HeyJude on October 12, 2017, 07:00:45 AM
I would love if Bruce was in Brian's band (well, if he wan't so crucial to Mike's band, as we saw during his absence) because he sang so many iconic parts on a lot of classics like California Girls ("I wish they all could be" on the outro) and the coda of God Only Knows. I also think his musicality would be displayed more if he maybe played keys or bass, instead of clapping. I just think having Bruce in Brian's band (which is taken more seriously as an artistic performance) would push Bruce to do more than clap and wave. Imagine Bruce playing the organ solo on Wild Honey and then having Blondie play his guitar solo!!!!!!!!!  >:D >:D >:D

I could really only see it happening if Mike retired.  But, I think it would be pretty cool to have maybe something like At My Window as a surprise song in BW sets. 

If Mike retired and there was no BB tour any longer (which is probably unlikely; I think BRI will probably license the name out to someone for decades to come), maybe Bruce wouldn't mind joining Brian's band. But I highly doubt he'd get an invitation. I don't think Brian would have any interest in that. While Brian is quite happy to point out Bruce's (and Mike's) contributions to past BB songs/albums and offer praise, I don't sense Brian particularly wants to be around Bruce on a regular basis.

I think there are much warmer feelings and more ease in being with Al, and even then, it took a couple of attempts before having Brian and Al together worked and gelled and was a truly warm thing without weird background politics.


Title: Re: Brian Wilson & Joe Thomas
Post by: KDS on October 12, 2017, 07:04:43 AM
I would love if Bruce was in Brian's band (well, if he wan't so crucial to Mike's band, as we saw during his absence) because he sang so many iconic parts on a lot of classics like California Girls ("I wish they all could be" on the outro) and the coda of God Only Knows. I also think his musicality would be displayed more if he maybe played keys or bass, instead of clapping. I just think having Bruce in Brian's band (which is taken more seriously as an artistic performance) would push Bruce to do more than clap and wave. Imagine Bruce playing the organ solo on Wild Honey and then having Blondie play his guitar solo!!!!!!!!!  >:D >:D >:D

I could really only see it happening if Mike retired.  But, I think it would be pretty cool to have maybe something like At My Window as a surprise song in BW sets. 

If Mike retired and there was no BB tour any longer (which is probably unlikely; I think BRI will probably license the name out to someone for decades to come), maybe Bruce wouldn't mind joining Brian's band. But I highly doubt he'd get an invitation. I don't think Brian would have any interest in that. While Brian is quite happy to point out Bruce's (and Mike's) contributions to past BB songs/albums and offer praise, I don't sense Brian particularly wants to be around Bruce on a regular basis.

I think there are much warmer feelings and more ease in being with Al, and even then, it took a couple of attempts before having Brian and Al together worked and gelled and was a truly warm thing without weird background politics.

It's unlikely, and I doubt Brian or his camp would approach Bruce to join.  But, if Bruce approached Brian, it wouldn't shock me.  Even if it was something along the lines of Bruce joining the rotation of players who fill in when Darian has other obligations. 


Title: Re: Brian Wilson & Joe Thomas
Post by: Jim V. on October 12, 2017, 08:38:41 AM
It doesn't even appear Bruce often sings on Mike's solo recordings. Is he anywhere on the 2004 "Unleash the Love" album stuff? Doesn't sound like it.

Well, as far as Mike's non Beach Boys recordings, I can say pretty comfortably that Bruce is on both the 2016 (Beach Music Classics) and 2017 (Unleash the Love) versions of "Do It Again" doing the "hey now" part. And while we are at it, I wouldn't be surprised if both of those versions are based on the same exact recording. I'd also assume that since he's on "Do It Again" on that Beach Music Classics compilation series, he would also be on the version of "Surfin' U.S.A."

And then, expanding from that, it's likely that those are recordings from Mike's recent Michael Lloyd produced sessions, and ergo, Bruce will probably be appearing somewhere on Mike's new album. Since there is no mention of him being "featured" probably no lead vocals, but I'm sure beyond "Do It Again" you'll probably hear him on their, at the very least on the second disc, which seems to be Mike and his band running through many songs which appear in their set (minus "Brian's Back) of course.


Title: Re: Brian Wilson & Joe Thomas
Post by: guitarfool2002 on October 12, 2017, 08:44:43 AM
I may be a lone voice saying this but it was not really Bruce's vocals or voice overall that was the draw or is the attraction (he's a background singer), it's the fact that Bruce is a terrific keyboard player and fans have not gotten a chance to really hear the man play live or in studio for too long considering his history and credentials as a musician. But maybe he just doesn't want to play real keys anymore and is content to play second banana to Mike.


Title: Re: Brian Wilson & Joe Thomas
Post by: Jim V. on October 12, 2017, 08:59:31 AM
It's unlikely, and I doubt Brian or his camp would approach Bruce to join.  But, if Bruce approached Brian, it wouldn't shock me.  Even if it was something along the lines of Bruce joining the rotation of players who fill in when Darian has other obligations. 

I don't know. I don't think I'd put Bruce along the lines of Gary Griffin or Billy Hinsche or those other guys, if only because he's actually a fully fledged member of The Beach Boys (though not a member of BRI).

I also do agree it's unlikely that Bruce would ever be part of Brian's solo team. I don't think his personality and general way of being would really mesh with Brian's band.


Title: Re: Brian Wilson & Joe Thomas
Post by: Jim V. on October 12, 2017, 09:14:20 AM
I may be a lone voice saying this but it was not really Bruce's vocals or voice overall that was the draw or is the attraction (he's a background singer), it's the fact that Bruce is a terrific keyboard player and fans have not gotten a chance to really hear the man play live or in studio for too long considering his history and credentials as a musician. But maybe he just doesn't want to play real keys anymore and is content to play second banana to Mike.

Hey I agree with you man. I love Bruce's keyboard work on Surfers' Pajama Party. I've consistently said how much I like that album and it's a shame to the extent that Bruce even pushes his own work, it's just as the "Disney Girls" and "I Write the Songs" guy and then also as Mike's sidekick.

And then, though I'm not really a fan of anything he's done since 1966's "Don't Run Away" (or maybe "Disney Girls" if I'm feeling generous), I think it's a shame that he has not felt the need to push himself creatively at all since....well, gosh knows how long? Supposedly he did a re-recording of "She Believes in Love Again" a few years before the C50 and then apparently either added to it or re-recorded it again for C50, but apart from that I'm unsure if he's done anything new creatively since that Symphonic Sounds thing.


Title: Re: Brian Wilson & Joe Thomas
Post by: NateRuvin on October 12, 2017, 11:08:41 AM
Yeah I have no issue with Bruce not taking many (if any) lead vocals. He is an incredible background singer. If you don't believe me, look up the shows from 2017 without Bruce- the harmonies just don't sound right. His voice adds a lot to Mike's band.

I don't see him filling in as a keyboardist for Brian's shows simply because I don't think he knows every chord of every song. Just like how I wouldn't replace Nicky or Probyn with Al Jardine.



Title: Re: Brian Wilson & Joe Thomas
Post by: rab2591 on October 12, 2017, 11:14:03 AM
Yeah I have no issue with Bruce not taking many (if any) lead vocals. He is an incredible background singer. If you don't believe me, look up the shows from 2017 without Bruce- the harmonies just don't sound right. His voice adds a lot to Mike's band.

I don't see him filling in as a keyboardist for Brian's shows simply because I don't think he knows every chord of every song. Just like how I wouldn't replace Nicky or Probyn with Al Jardine.



To add to this, listen for his background vocals in TWGMTR, he’s got a uniquely awesome voice that does add a lot to the mix.


Title: Re: Brian Wilson & Joe Thomas
Post by: HeyJude on October 12, 2017, 11:30:01 AM
Yeah I have no issue with Bruce not taking many (if any) lead vocals. He is an incredible background singer. If you don't believe me, look up the shows from 2017 without Bruce- the harmonies just don't sound right. His voice adds a lot to Mike's band.

I don't see him filling in as a keyboardist for Brian's shows simply because I don't think he knows every chord of every song. Just like how I wouldn't replace Nicky or Probyn with Al Jardine.



I think there are too many other people in the blend in Mike's band that obscure Bruce. Once Al and Carl were gone from the blend in 1998, it started truly sounding like a tribute/cover band, of increasingly high quality no questions, but there's no "Beach Boys" there.

Conversely, I think it's Al's voice, considering both that it's more intact than any other member's and that he fills in that key mid-range, that truly lends to the group vocal sound and makes it start sounding like "The Beach Boys." Listen to him punch through on something like the vocal intro on "Daybreak Over the Ocean", or the backing vocals during C50 on "Getcha Back."

Al added to Brian sounds more evocative of *The* Beach Boys, especially with Matt in the mix as well, than Mike and Bruce ever have. To be sure, if Al sang with Mike and Bruce, he'd lend a similar sound no questions.

As for musicianship and who would be called on among the BBs, *none* of the guys these days other than David Marks would ever be the guy you'd call on if you need a key *musician* role filled in your band. It's why when they need fill-in guys, they go to touring band stalwarts like Billy Hinsche or Gary Griffin, etc.


Title: Re: Brian Wilson & Joe Thomas
Post by: thorgil on October 13, 2017, 07:20:39 AM
I don't like Bruce as a lead singer, but as a harmony singer he has always been awesome, and still is. He is in good company too. To name just one, the great William Langford,  who was the falsetto tenor in the original Golden Gate Quartet and was (IMHO) the best harmony singer ever, took few leads and none of them memorable, just like Bruce's.


Title: Re: Brian Wilson & Joe Thomas
Post by: KDS on October 13, 2017, 07:28:04 AM
I don't like Bruce as a lead singer, but as a harmony singer he has always been awesome, and still is. He is in good company too. To name just one, the great William Langford,  who was the falsetto tenor in the original Golden Gate Quartet and was (IMHO) the best harmony singer ever, took few leads and none of them memorable, just like Bruce's.

I'm alright with Bruce as a lead singer, with receiving one token lead per album.  But one of the few quibbles I have about the Sunflower album is that there are too many Bruce leads, and not enough of Brian, Al, or Mike. 


Title: Re: Brian Wilson & Joe Thomas
Post by: HeyJude on October 13, 2017, 07:30:56 AM
"Sunflower" is one of my favorite examples of Bruce's weird Jekyll and Hyde personality.

He has often derided fans for being "one percenters" and being barrel scrapers and all of that, yet at other times he'll go on and on about "Sunflower."

Undoubtedly, as he had a larger hand in "Sunflower", he's less likely to get all warm and fuzzy talking about "Love You" or something.


Title: Re: Brian Wilson & Joe Thomas
Post by: Acechaser on December 25, 2023, 04:08:11 PM
I've never minded the sound of a Joe Thomas/BW production, including "Everything I Need'.  However, I think Joe's influence on songs selected for an album is the real problem.  I don't think I'd dislike the sound of a Thomas production of "Chain Reaction of Love".  But, I doubt Joe would ever select that song for a BW album.  Of course, I understand that Brian (presumably) could have overruled Joe (and/or others) to include more Paley/BW tunes on Imagination or NPP.  And, Joe wasn't around to overrule when it came to songs for GIOMH (the album).