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Smiley Smile Stuff => General On Topic Discussions => Topic started by: RONDEMON on September 18, 2017, 09:27:35 AM



Title: "Run James, Run" Streaming at P4K
Post by: RONDEMON on September 18, 2017, 09:27:35 AM
https://pitchfork.com/news/listen-to-brian-wilsons-new-song-run-james-run/

Pretty interesting song! Not what I was expecting at all. Reminds me of some of the more 12-string guitar-centric stuff " on Summer Days..."


Title: Re: \
Post by: thatjacob on September 18, 2017, 09:53:02 AM
His voice isn't an autotuned nightmare on this! I'm digging it. I can't wait to throw a tape plugin on this and dirty it up and make it a little closer to mono.


Title: Re: \
Post by: HeyJude on September 18, 2017, 09:58:22 AM
For those having problems playing this in various browsers, here's a direct SoundCloud link that hopefully works:

https://w.soundcloud.com/player/?url=https%3A//api.soundcloud.com/tracks/342303408%3Fsecret_token%3Ds-bbxLr&color=%23ff5500&auto_play=false&hide_related=false&show_comments=true&show_user=true&show_reposts=false&visual=


Title: Re: \
Post by: HeyJude on September 18, 2017, 09:59:33 AM
A cool little bonus track. Kind of like a much better, more original version of "PT Cruiser."


Title: Re: \
Post by: Wirestone on September 18, 2017, 10:02:39 AM
I wouldn't mind an album of this ...

There's a musical quote used during the verse that I haven't placed yet.


Title: Re: \
Post by: the captain on September 18, 2017, 10:15:35 AM
Don't Hurt My Little Sister


Title: Re: \
Post by: Wrightfan on September 18, 2017, 10:21:09 AM
According to another article, he apparently just wrote this within the year. Still has it.

I think for perhaps the last time...he has to quit the concert seen and focus on the studio for one more album.


Title: Re: \
Post by: the captain on September 18, 2017, 10:22:57 AM
That article is wrong about that unless he's written and recorded two songs by the same name in recent years. It was discussed during NPP and Beck sessions.


Title: Re:
Post by: ♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇 on September 18, 2017, 10:24:33 AM
I'm not sure on how I feel about the song itself yet, but I love the production and Brian's vocals.  


Title: Re:
Post by: ♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇 on September 18, 2017, 10:25:29 AM
I wouldn't mind an album of this ...

There's a musical quote used during the verse that I haven't placed yet.

The opening sounds very familiar too.


Title: Re: \
Post by: ReggieDunbar on September 18, 2017, 10:30:07 AM
Wow!
 I like it! When was the last time BW did a fast catchy song in 150 bpm?

A great blend of 'Drive in' and 'Dont hurt my little sister'

really cool
 


Title: Re: \
Post by: bonnevillemariner on September 18, 2017, 10:36:08 AM
Wow! I wish this would have been released before "Some Sweet Day."


Title: Re: \
Post by: JK on September 18, 2017, 10:41:39 AM
 "This track is not available in your country.":thud


Title: Re: \
Post by: ReggieDunbar on September 18, 2017, 10:44:31 AM
Use this service:

http://9soundclouddownloader.com/

enter https://w.soundcloud.com/player/?url=https%3A//api.soundcloud.com/tracks/342303408%3Fsecret_token%3Ds-bbxLr&color=%23ff5500&auto_play=false&hide_related=false&show_comments=true&show_user=true&show_reposts=false&visual=

Then download



Title: Re: \
Post by: EgoHanger1966 on September 18, 2017, 10:44:51 AM
Anyone else hear "Don't Hurt My Little Sister" in the verses?

edit: Nurr mind. Two people above already got it. :)


Title: Re: \
Post by: ReggieDunbar on September 18, 2017, 10:54:55 AM
Couldn't help to remember this instagram post. Wearing the same shirt as in p4k article!

(https://i.imgur.com/qb30BBa.png)


Title: Re: \
Post by: Wirestone on September 18, 2017, 10:59:58 AM
I'll need to hear the actual CD to figure this out, but that's some interesting filter or whatnot on BW's voice. It's not a quadruple tracked effect at all, or the odd NPP sound where the beginnings and ends of words are one voice but the sounds inbetween are choral. It actually seems pretty cool!


Title: Re: \
Post by: thatjacob on September 18, 2017, 11:21:15 AM
I'll need to hear the actual CD to figure this out, but that's some interesting filter or whatnot on BW's voice. It's not a quadruple tracked effect at all, or the odd NPP sound where the beginnings and ends of words are one voice but the sounds inbetween are choral. It actually seems pretty cool!
It's definitely comped between his voice and someone else's in a few spots, but i prefer that to overcorrecting pitch issues.


Title: Re: \
Post by: Michigander2122 on September 18, 2017, 11:23:07 AM
I absolutely love it! :-D Could this be the first song of the Brian Rock & Roll Album that he's been mentioning for years? Please no remakes, just more of this!


Title: Re: \
Post by: Jim V. on September 18, 2017, 11:35:31 AM
Overall it's pleasant, but....

I remember it originally being talked about with an Al Jardine lead. And by golly I think it woulda raised this song a notch with Al doing the quicker verses with Brian doing his thing on the choruses. I think Brian sounds beautiful on those parts but I feel like the faster verses just aren't in his wheelhouse anymore for new songs. I think it really the Al/Brian effect really woulda worked quite well for this one, kinda like the early Beach Boys Mike/Brian duets. But alas, this is for a Brian Wilson solo career anthology and they wanted more Brian maybe. So, it is what it is.


Title: Re: \
Post by: NateRuvin on September 18, 2017, 11:39:04 AM
I love this! Brian sounds enthusiastic and the song really rocks! This made my day!!!! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D :bw :bw :bw :bw


Title: Re: \
Post by: Wirestone on September 18, 2017, 11:41:47 AM
Overall it's pleasant, but....

I remember it originally being talked about with an Al Jardine lead. And by golly I think it woulda raised this song a notch with Al doing the quicker verses with Brian doing his thing on the choruses. I think Brian sounds beautiful on those parts but I feel like the faster verses just aren't in his wheelhouse anymore for new songs. I think it really the Al/Brian effect really woulda worked quite well for this one, kinda like the early Beach Boys Mike/Brian duets. But alas, this is for a Brian Wilson solo career anthology and they wanted more Brian maybe. So, it is what it is.

Yeah, I'm sure that's the case. But this tune wouldn't fit on NPP, either ...


Title: Re: \
Post by: CenturyDeprived on September 18, 2017, 11:55:47 AM
This song COOKS. I friggin' LOVE it. Listening it to the 3rd time in a row!

It's more like the TLOS/Scott Bennett style production, which is such a breath of fresh air compared to Joverproduction Thomas. I do hear few odd vocal processing artifacts, like on the word "burn", but they're minimal.

Please, more more more like this!

This might be my fave new Brian track in a decade.


Title: Re: \
Post by: grillo on September 18, 2017, 12:33:13 PM
What everyone else says...Its Great!
Wish Mike was on those verses and wish there was a better drummer/ drum sound, but its way stronger than most of BW's solo work, energy-wise!


Title: Re:
Post by: PS on September 18, 2017, 02:19:03 PM
Definitely a revitalized sound and energy, feels like the first day of summer...


Title: Re: \
Post by: 18thofMay on September 18, 2017, 02:24:52 PM
Not available in my Country... fair dinkum


Title: Re: \
Post by: The LEGENDARY OSD on September 18, 2017, 03:01:32 PM

I'm lovin' it!! And thank god there's no luHv on it!  :p


Title: Re: \
Post by: Ninten on September 18, 2017, 03:29:31 PM
Controversial opinion, but Brian's modern voice minus the heavy autotuning is going to take some getting used to. Hm. I like this--a modern take on the classic pre-Pet Sounds period. If this is what the legendary "rock and roll album" will sound like, I'm on board. Though, I might wind up being sad that it's not a Beach Boys album. This sounds exactly like the kind of song Mike would get on board for. With Brian's solo stuff, I'm looking more for the weird, melancholy, quirkiness of an album like NPP. If he's going to make music like this that's more fun, why not get Mike and Bruce and make it the real deal? (I mean, if Mike cares so much about getting in a room and writing something from scratch, why is his new single a terrible remake of a song he and Brian wrote almost 50 years ago?) But hey, I'll take whatever we get at this point. Great song.


Title: Re: \
Post by: Seaside Woman on September 18, 2017, 03:40:45 PM
This going to be an ear-worm that will stand up to repeated plays.

I can't wait to own this ...


Title: Re:
Post by: ♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇 on September 18, 2017, 04:10:37 PM
I know where I've heard the opening...sounds somewhat like 867-5309/Jenny

Anyway the song has grown on me a lot


Title: Re:
Post by: MikestheGreatest!! on September 18, 2017, 04:14:11 PM
I know where I've heard the opening...sounds somewhat like 867-5309/Jenny

Ughh....


Title: Re: \
Post by: Bicyclerider on September 18, 2017, 04:59:19 PM
Pleasant enough, but suffers from the overbusy production and the overdone by the numbers BW harmonies.  Sometimes less is more.  The guitar break was the best part.


Title: Re: \
Post by: Wirestone on September 18, 2017, 05:43:56 PM
I would hardly call this an over-busy production -- I didn't hear anything other than guitars, bass and drums.

And to think I'd see a day when a BW track was criticized for having harmonies ...


Title: Re: \
Post by: Cristian Kiper on September 18, 2017, 05:52:47 PM
In this video, at 3:15, Al is holding a sheet of paper with lyrics for Run James Run: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CgFF3n6xpM8

(https://image.ibb.co/mYdnTk/lyrics1.png)

I wonder if there's a version with Al singing it.


Title: Re: \
Post by: Wirestone on September 18, 2017, 05:59:03 PM
Yes. Al and Brian recorded a version during the NPP sessions with Al on the lead. It was re-recorded earlier this year, likely without JT as a co-producer.


Title: Re: \
Post by: Bicyclerider on September 18, 2017, 06:12:04 PM
I would hardly call this an over-busy production -- I didn't hear anything other than guitars, bass and drums.

And to think I'd see a day when a BW track was criticized for having harmonies ...

Not for having harmonies - for having overly typical and overused BW harmonies, and the busy-ness of the production is definitely the multiple vocal overdubs.  Let the song breathe - its a good tune, don't obscure it!  Just my opinion of course, it appears I'm in the minority on this.


Title: Re: \
Post by: CenturyDeprived on September 18, 2017, 06:57:01 PM
In this video, at 3:15, Al is holding a sheet of paper with lyrics for Run James Run: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CgFF3n6xpM8

(https://image.ibb.co/mYdnTk/lyrics1.png)

I wonder if there's a version with Al singing it.

Amazing detective work!


Title: Re: \
Post by: guitarfool2002 on September 18, 2017, 07:02:13 PM
The song could have been 25% better with Mark McGrath randomly grunting and yelling "Run! Run!".


Title: Re: \
Post by: guitarfool2002 on September 18, 2017, 07:05:24 PM
Controversial opinion, but Brian's modern voice minus the heavy autotuning is going to take some getting used to. Hm. I like this--a modern take on the classic pre-Pet Sounds period. If this is what the legendary "rock and roll album" will sound like, I'm on board. Though, I might wind up being sad that it's not a Beach Boys album. This sounds exactly like the kind of song Mike would get on board for. With Brian's solo stuff, I'm looking more for the weird, melancholy, quirkiness of an album like NPP. If he's going to make music like this that's more fun, why not get Mike and Bruce and make it the real deal? (I mean, if Mike cares so much about getting in a room and writing something from scratch, why is his new single a terrible remake of a song he and Brian wrote almost 50 years ago?) But hey, I'll take whatever we get at this point. Great song.

Brian's music doesn't need Mike and Bruce, and neither he nor his music and career has needed Mike and Bruce for decades.


Title: Re: \
Post by: HeyJude on September 18, 2017, 07:13:34 PM
Are we sure this is a 100 percent re-recording compared to the NPP recording, without hearing the NPP version? Al and Matt are still all over the backing vocals here. Seems like it would have been easier to just have Brian record over Al's lead, with various minor tweaks. I know various articles mention it was more recently recorded, but I wouldn't necessarily rule out some layers being pulled from the NPP session.


Title: Re:
Post by: guitarfool2002 on September 18, 2017, 07:14:15 PM
I know where I've heard the opening...sounds somewhat like 867-5309/Jenny

Anyway the song has grown on me a lot

 :)

Me too.

But that guitar opening - Classic walk up and down the G-string on a 12-string electric. Lots of records in the 60's used it before Jenny. I thought of "Little Girl" by Syndicate Of Sound, Run James Run is doing it on an E chord like Little Girl resolving to A. Same technique and similar sound/style for 12-string. Anytime that classic "jangle" is needed, compress the hell out of the 12-string guitar and use those ringing open strings, lol.


Title: Re: \
Post by: guitarfool2002 on September 18, 2017, 07:25:41 PM
For the guitarists out there: Here is the intro 12-string riff tabbed out. Let all notes ring into each other, play it with reverb, compression...and if possible, a 12-string electric.  :)


e----------0----------0----------0---------0----------0----------0---------0---------0----
b--------0--0------0---0-----0----0-----0----0------0---0-----0----0----0----0---0----0-
g---13---------11---------9----------7------------9----------7---------6-------4---------
d-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
a-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
e-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Title: Re:
Post by: ♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇 on September 18, 2017, 08:03:43 PM
6th time hearing it and I now love it. I want an album of stuff like this.


Title: Re:
Post by: Sound of Free on September 18, 2017, 08:42:23 PM
I like it a lot. And I may be crazy, but the song I thought of during the verses was "Santa's Beard."


Title: Re:
Post by: ♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇 on September 18, 2017, 11:40:03 PM
Good ear. Once you hear it, you can't unhear it


Title: Re: \
Post by: Rick5150 on September 19, 2017, 02:21:38 AM
Any help with the lyrics and writing credits is appreciated!

Run James Run

I got a pretty good job and a fascination
For the souped up ‘32
There’s a line outside
And they wait for a ride
Just to see what she can do

She’s an easy rider
When you sit beside her
She’s a real heartbreaker
You try to pass her but you never can shake her

You’d better run James run
A little faster
Fast as you can go
Find a ride (run, run, run a little faster)
Get inside

You’d better run James run
A little faster
Take her by the hand
Find a ride (run, James, run a little faster)
Be the man

You can stop and stare but she really doesn’t care
If she’s running really loud
She’s a top and a closer
And a real good short
When she’s hanging with the crowd

Her wheels keep turning
As the wood keeps burning
Goin’ faster, faster
You can catch her but you’ll never outlast her

You’d better run James run
A little faster
Fast as you can go
Find a ride (run, run, run a little faster)
Get inside

You’d better run James run
A little faster
Take her by the hand
Find a ride (run, James, run a little faster)
Be the man

(Guitar Solo)

You’d better run James run
A little faster
Fast as you can go
Find a ride (run, run, run a little faster)
Get inside

You’d better run James run
A little faster
Take her by the hand
Find a ride (run, run, run a little faster)
Be the man

You’d better run James run
A little faster
Fast as you can go
Find a ride (run, James, run a little faster)
Get inside

(fades)

B. Wilson; Joe Thomas


Title: Re: \
Post by: JK on September 19, 2017, 04:23:40 AM
No need to click on a YT vid called "Hear brian wilson's new surf-rock song 'run james run'"----it's bogus.


Title: Re: \
Post by: RangeRoverA1 on September 19, 2017, 05:05:41 AM
Use this service:

http://9soundclouddownloader.com/

enter https://w.soundcloud.com/player/?url=https%3A//api.soundcloud.com/tracks/342303408%3Fsecret_token%3Ds-bbxLr&color=%23ff5500&auto_play=false&hide_related=false&show_comments=true&show_user=true&show_reposts=false&visual=

Then download
Thank you, it helped. Brian sings jolly good. Face it, he likes singing, it's telling. The middle 8 - uber-cool. :3d Surf guitar band meets Christmas. I'm looking at you, "Rocking Around the Christmas Tree"/ "Jingle Bell Rock". :3d Besides, non-stop tambourine must be one of the biggest earcandies in songs.

That said, I'm with Bicyclerider - didn't like the "oooh"s. It's typical Brian "ethereal" harmony, a la Imagination/ No Pier Pressure. The song grooves, what for make it poppier? Could be redone.


Title: Re: \
Post by: JK on September 19, 2017, 05:47:42 AM
Use this service:

http://9soundclouddownloader.com/

enter https://w.soundcloud.com/player/?url=https%3A//api.soundcloud.com/tracks/342303408%3Fsecret_token%3Ds-bbxLr&color=%23ff5500&auto_play=false&hide_related=false&show_comments=true&show_user=true&show_reposts=false&visual=

Then download

Thanks, Reggie. Got there in the end, lol.

Love the solo's call and response between acoustic guitar(s) and Duane Eddy-style electric.

Lots going on in there----more listens required. :=)


Title: Re: \
Post by: petsoundsnola on September 19, 2017, 05:55:57 AM
It is wonderful to hear such energy and excitement in Brian's voice and in the production.  Great song, love the guitar parts.  Perhaps this is a hint at what the fabled "Rock and Roll Album" might sound like.


Title: Re: \
Post by: HeyJude on September 19, 2017, 06:17:25 AM
Haven't had a good "headphone listen" yet (I'll probably just wait for the CD on Friday for that), but while there isn't the "vocal smushing" we've been talking about in other threads prevalent on TWGMTR and, to a lesser degree, NPP, even "Run James Run" isn't a pure, unadorned single-tracked Brian vocal from top to bottom. In the choruses, there's some doubling/overlapping, and I can almost hear some Al lead lines peaking through.

I think "refreshing" is the right word for this track.

Brian puts in a good lead on this one, so I'm not quick to say I wish they had issued the Al lead. But I do think an Al lead on this track would sound great. Too bad they couldn't do a little download-only single and tack on the "Al version" as a bonus.

I'm still hoping Brian and Al do something in the studio that isn't released under "Brian Wilson", where they'll have even more leeway to just let it be an "Al track."


Title: Re: \
Post by: terrei on September 19, 2017, 06:39:41 AM
Is NRBQ guesting on this?


Title: Re: \
Post by: pixletwin on September 19, 2017, 06:54:44 AM
Fun and lighthearted Wilson Does Wilson.


Title: Re: \
Post by: bonnevillemariner on September 19, 2017, 09:08:49 AM
Now that it's on Spotify, I've been able to listen several more times in decent quality. I find myself wishing-- as I do with every modern Brian recording-- that the falsetto (who's providing that- matt?) were more prominent and soaring. I'm glad it's there, but I want it out front, almost overpowering.


Title: Re: \
Post by: HeyJude on September 19, 2017, 09:37:19 AM
Now that it's on Spotify, I've been able to listen several more times in decent quality. I find myself wishing-- as I do with every modern Brian recording-- that the falsetto (who's providing that- matt?) were more prominent and soaring. I'm glad it's there, but I want it out front, almost overpowering.

Sounds like Matt, and if most or all of it was indeed recorded this year, then it's definitely Matt.

I think the falsetto is mixed up just right; it's a "backing vocal" element, so it's not like it should be overpowering the instruments.

To the degree they're ever thinking of "music critics" rating this stuff, it's also worth keeping in mind that if Brian whipped out an entire album of "Falsettos Mixed Up to 11" songs, bobbing and weaving through every song, it would (probably rightly) be torn to shreds.

I think Matt's the perfect falsetto for Brian's solo stuff, and I like that it's just right and everything doesn't sound like Foskett twisting and turning covering "I Live for the Sun."


Title: Re: \
Post by: guitarfool2002 on September 19, 2017, 09:37:36 AM
After a few more spins, I'll echo the comments already posted and say the more sparse production has grown on me too. I like the basic rock and roll combo instrumentation, the basic track foundation of guitars, bass, and drums setting the tone and texture for the track. That's the cake itself, and the various lead guitar lines and other touches are the icing on top. It's a pretty neat change of pace for Brian to not have a keyboard driven foundation but instead go back to, say, 1963-64 for a more guitar-heavy sonic and rhythmic base or foundation. It's very cool. It's the type of song that really works with a more stripped-down setting. It's not a heavy lyric, and the foundation compliments that element.

It's similar to me to hearing That's Not Me in the context of Pet Sounds. Here is an album chock full of "wall of sound" instrumentation and layering, and smack-dab in the middle there is a track with basically three or four musicians and vocals on top. It's not jarring, but it works in context. It doesn't sound empty, but it isn't as dense of a layered track either compared to what surrounds it. This track kind of hit me the same way, Brian's most recent tracks have been densely layered, often heavy with keyboards and Pet Sounds style ensemble guitar sectionals, and here is a throwback rock combo sound...like Carl on his Rick 12-string, Al on his Strat, Fender bass, and drums...1963-64 vintage...with layered harmonies on top. And specific guitar lines and hooks played by a single guitar rather than having a sectional, or a tightly arranged guitar ensemble. A nice turn back the clock effort.

I kind of hoped for some time that Brian would consider doing a more stripped-down effort on an album, less layering save for the vocal stacks, and more of a rock combo cutting loose and grooving. Less emphasis on keyboards and keys pads, more focus on guitars and rhythm section interplay. If this sound is a harbinger of something to come, I'm in. All in. It is a nice change-up. Maybe not for every track depending on the lyric and theme, but for a rock and roll album? This works. This is why having an outside producer like Jeff Lynne or anyone similar to me would not work...it wouldn't allow such a sparse track to remain sparse based on possible expectations or assumptions about how a Brian track should sound. This one, for what it is, seems to strike a nice balance between "classic" and new, without doing what happened in the 90's where Brian's sound got defined too broadly and there was more 60's retro fetish icing in the finished product than there was actual cake...or in one case, hardly any of that vintage recognition at all.

And I hope too that the rhythm section for future sessions at least consists of Nick Walusko, Mike D'Amico, and Darian to name three musicians off the top of my head. If anyone knows how to nail these sounds and grooves, it's them.


Title: Re: \
Post by: guitarfool2002 on September 19, 2017, 09:53:43 AM
 :deadhorse

Just a quick aside too, relative to that emoticon of beating a dead horse...

For all the talk and hopes and dreams of "Mike and Bruce" being involved in something like this, I'd suggest a quick revisit and review of the history of where and how a track like this came from. This was one of those that sprung up in the aftermath of Mike not wanting to continue the C50 reunion activities, and instead choosing to keep tourin' with his own band for the foreseeable future as of Fall 2012. Brian is on the record saying he was working on songs for "The Beach Boys" on a follow-up project to TWGMTR, but Mike instead walked away. Brian-Al-David went ahead doing shows, connected with Jeff Beck, played shows with him...and were also in the studio working up original songs and ideas that included "Run James Run" in part influenced by Jeff Beck's love of classic cars and hot-rods. Some of those songs would ostensibly have been on that hypothetical "next" Beach Boys original album, but instead Mike balked, walked, and took Bruce with him for another run of touring.

So forgive my not being as thrilled to hope Mike and Bruce somehow got or even will get involved in something like this track...because they would have been involved in tracks similar to this if not this very track (if it were a concept being considered in 2012) had Mike not made his decisions and got exactly what he wanted, which is to return to his licensed version of the Beach Boys on the road playing shows. His decision was made. Now he has Mark McGrath to collaborate with on 50 year old BB remakes instead of original songs that would be right up his alley.


Title: Re: \
Post by: Wirestone on September 19, 2017, 09:54:35 AM
Fairly sure some of the falsetto on this is actually Brian -- it's not especially high. But I could be wrong.


Title: Re: \
Post by: Rocker on September 19, 2017, 10:08:41 AM
Pleasant enough, but suffers from the overbusy production and the overdone by the numbers BW harmonies.  Sometimes less is more.


I agree with this. Some of Brian's solo works suffer from that.
Anyway, this one is a nice tune. It doesn't blow me away as "Some sweet day" (although I knew that one already from bootlegs). But yeah, keep going, Brian!


Title: Re: \
Post by: thorgil on September 19, 2017, 10:29:02 AM
I always knew RJR was going to be good... :)


Title: Re: \
Post by: jackjachman on September 19, 2017, 02:15:53 PM
I never know truly accurate these descriptions are, but according to the Youtube upload of this from the channel that automatically uploads new streaming material of Brian's (every major artist has a "- Topic" channel), the song has a credit for Andy Paley as a Co-Producer. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VggE9Oa7wz8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VggE9Oa7wz8)

Interesting, since I haven't heard of him being involved in this. It may be that it grouped this song together with "Some Sweet Day", but the description does also correctly note that the song was written by Brian and Joe Thomas, so maybe it is correct? Either way, I hope Andy starts to work with Brian again very soon, I love what they did together and clearly both still admire each other a whole lot. At the very least, maybe the two of them can spearhead some long-overdue Paley sessions material from the 90's.


Title: Re: \
Post by: Jim V. on September 19, 2017, 02:17:54 PM
:deadhorse

Just a quick aside too, relative to that emoticon of beating a dead horse...

For all the talk and hopes and dreams of "Mike and Bruce" being involved in something like this, I'd suggest a quick revisit and review of the history of where and how a track like this came from. This was one of those that sprung up in the aftermath of Mike not wanting to continue the C50 reunion activities, and instead choosing to keep tourin' with his own band for the foreseeable future as of Fall 2012. Brian is on the record saying he was working on songs for "The Beach Boys" on a follow-up project to TWGMTR, but Mike instead walked away. Brian-Al-David went ahead doing shows, connected with Jeff Beck, played shows with him...and were also in the studio working up original songs and ideas that included "Run James Run" in part influenced by Jeff Beck's love of classic cars and hot-rods. Some of those songs would ostensibly have been on that hypothetical "next" Beach Boys original album, but instead Mike balked, walked, and took Bruce with him for another run of touring.

So forgive my not being as thrilled to hope Mike and Bruce somehow got or even will get involved in something like this track...because they would have been involved in tracks similar to this if not this very track (if it were a concept being considered in 2012) had Mike not made his decisions and got exactly what he wanted, which is to return to his licensed version of the Beach Boys on the road playing shows. His decision was made. Now he has Mark McGrath to collaborate with on 50 year old BB remakes instead of original songs that would be right up his alley.

I get what you are saying guitarfool, and I think nearly everybody does. And I agree that Mike has been a major piece of sh*t. And no, this isn't Brian's fault for a freakin' millisecond, but I don't think it's freaking nuts for some of us to wish that Mike Love and Brian Wilson were singing together on a new Brian Wilson car song. Regardless of all the bullshit. I think that for this kind of music they are a great combo. Throw away the other nonsense. I honestly can't stand it when certain posters say "let's keep it to just the music" but in this instance that's simply all it is to me. It's a shame that they are both alive and in good shape but that one of them f***ed that up. It's a shame, but I don't think people should be looked down upon because they wouldn't mind hearing a blend of Brian, Al, Blondie, Mike and Bruce. Do I think Brian will ever work with Mike again? Doubtful (and rightly so). But we can still hope and not be talked down to for hoping.


Title: Re: \
Post by: MyDrKnowsItKeepsMeCalm on September 19, 2017, 02:18:01 PM
:deadhorse

Just a quick aside too, relative to that emoticon of beating a dead horse...

For all the talk and hopes and dreams of "Mike and Bruce" being involved in something like this, I'd suggest a quick revisit and review of the history of where and how a track like this came from. This was one of those that sprung up in the aftermath of Mike not wanting to continue the C50 reunion activities, and instead choosing to keep tourin' with his own band for the foreseeable future as of Fall 2012. Brian is on the record saying he was working on songs for "The Beach Boys" on a follow-up project to TWGMTR, but Mike instead walked away. Brian-Al-David went ahead doing shows, connected with Jeff Beck, played shows with him...and were also in the studio working up original songs and ideas that included "Run James Run" in part influenced by Jeff Beck's love of classic cars and hot-rods. Some of those songs would ostensibly have been on that hypothetical "next" Beach Boys original album, but instead Mike balked, walked, and took Bruce with him for another run of touring.

So forgive my not being as thrilled to hope Mike and Bruce somehow got or even will get involved in something like this track...because they would have been involved in tracks similar to this if not this very track (if it were a concept being considered in 2012) had Mike not made his decisions and got exactly what he wanted, which is to return to his licensed version of the Beach Boys on the road playing shows. His decision was made. Now he has Mark McGrath to collaborate with on 50 year old BB remakes instead of original songs that would be right up his alley.
Ouch. Good point.

The track sounds great!


Title: Re: \
Post by: thorgil on September 19, 2017, 04:20:41 PM
Use this service:

http://9soundclouddownloader.com/

enter https://w.soundcloud.com/player/?url=https%3A//api.soundcloud.com/tracks/342303408%3Fsecret_token%3Ds-bbxLr&color=%23ff5500&auto_play=false&hide_related=false&show_comments=true&show_user=true&show_reposts=false&visual=

Then download


Thanks a million Reggie! This worked the magic for me!
What can I say? My faith in this tune was not squandered. Will need more listens, but at the moment it's one if my favourites in Brian's whole solo career. AND one who maybe would not sound out of place in "Love You". :bw
Several people nailed it: "refreshing". Oh, for a whole R&R album made this way. :)

P.S.
And yes, it's a real pity that for the all too known reasons we can't hear Mike's stellar bass voice on this (I SO hear him around 1'45''). Sigh.


Title: Re: \
Post by: thorgil on September 19, 2017, 04:28:08 PM
The song could have been 25% better with Mark McGrath randomly grunting and yelling "Run! Run!".
AAARGH!


Title: Re: \
Post by: MikestheGreatest!! on September 19, 2017, 04:35:08 PM
Actually "Beating a Dead Horse" would be a pretty good title for either a Brian Wilson or Beach Boys site at this point....


Title: Re: \
Post by: Senator Blutarsky on September 19, 2017, 06:46:03 PM
Admittedly am not a fan of the production style of Joe Thomas.  But this seems less produced than NPP which is a good sign. 

Definitely hear a pre Pet Sounds influence here.


Title: Re: \
Post by: thatjacob on September 19, 2017, 06:49:24 PM
Admittedly am not a fan of the production style of Joe Thomas.  But this seems less produced than NPP which is a good sign. 

Definitely hear a pre Pet Sounds influence here.
It doesn't seem to be produced by Joe, thankfully. I'm not sure if I believe that online credit from youtube that it was co-produced by Andy Paley, but it does have some of the hallmarks of his work.


Title: Re: \
Post by: SMiLE Brian on September 19, 2017, 07:10:01 PM
Actually "Beating a Dead Horse" would be a pretty good title for either a Brian Wilson or Beach Boys site at this point....
Hi, you seem to have this place confused with the vibe room....


Title: Re: \
Post by: Custom Machine on September 19, 2017, 11:27:19 PM
Given the classic Beach Boys sound of this track, regardless of any past history, IMO Run James Run would be even better with Mike's (mainly) and Bruce's voices added to the mix.





Title: Re: \
Post by: guitarfool2002 on September 19, 2017, 11:56:19 PM
Given the classic Beach Boys sound of this track, regardless of any past history, IMO Run James Run would be even better with Mike's (mainly) and Bruce's voices added to the mix.

That's what I said in my comments above. This kind of song and vocal is right up Mike's alley. Mike could have recorded more original music like this with Brian, but he chose otherwise back in 2012. He chose to keep tourin' with his Beach Boys band instead. Mike got exactly what he wanted. I thought fans were supposed to be happy about that decision.  

Next time Mike does a Q&A session with one of his flacks fans, someone should raise this issue with him.

And dollars to donuts, I'm betting if some intrepid interviewer does ask Mike about Run James Run, Mike might say "Nope, I have not listened to it. I am so busy on the road I just don't have the time. I was not allowed to write with my cousin like I was told we would do..." Or some variation of that go-to phraseology. He may even throw in a barb about using Autotune. Or maybe if the "spies" supposedly monitoring these boards read this, the go-to answer will change this time. Who knows.  ;D


Title: Re:
Post by: ♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇 on September 20, 2017, 12:39:55 AM
Fairly sure some of the falsetto on this is actually Brian -- it's not especially high. But I could be wrong.


You're right...I hear him all of the place in the backups.


Title: Re: \
Post by: thorgil on September 20, 2017, 04:17:16 AM
Respectfully, and as much as I love Al's voice, don't agree with those who think that an Al lead would have been better here.
Al's pure, youthful voice is perfect, for example, for a song like "The Right Time", but imho Brian's gruffer, weathered delivery works very well in RJR.
I also like the contrast between the lead and the "ethereal" harmonies.


Title: Re: \
Post by: HeyJude on September 20, 2017, 07:19:58 AM
I actually think, in some instances, Brian and Al end up sounding somewhat similar these days. They end up singing in a somewhat similar range (Al talked about this back around C50, that he and Brian end up competing for the mid-range parts). I think "Run James Run" is perfectly in Al's vocal range. Obviously Brian can have a somewhat different timbre to his voice.

I think they'd both sound good on this one, but that goes for most anything Brian cuts in the studio these days. Al sings in a similar range, and his voice is in better shape. But that doesn't mean I think Brian should just give up singing and let Al do it (though an "Al Jardine" album penned by Brian could be pretty amazing).

If someone had played me "Run James Run" with some random person doing the guide vocal and asked me who should sing it, I would have said Al without question. So I'm pleasantly surprised to find I quite like Brian's vocal; it's honest-sounding. It's not super futzed-with. Brian sounds engaged and it sounds like Brian just sitting in front of you nailing a good vocal take on the song. It's not one of those deals where it sounds like one Brian, two Als, and three Fosketts were blended together and spit back out.


Title: Re: \
Post by: bonnevillemariner on September 20, 2017, 01:37:29 PM
I think they'd both sound good on this one, but that goes for most anything Brian cuts in the studio these days. Al sings in a similar range, and his voice is in better shape. But that doesn't mean I think Brian should just give up singing and let Al do it (though an "Al Jardine" album penned by Brian could be pretty amazing).

Right. And since they sing in similar ranges these days, and because frankly Al's voice adopted well into the sibling harmony established early on, their similar sounds would intertwine nice on this track.

I've long thought Brian should sing fewer lyrics and stick more toward nonverbal harmonies, while Al should primarily handle lyrics.


Title: Re: \
Post by: GhostyTMRS on September 20, 2017, 02:55:26 PM
I quite like this (obvious nod to DHMLS in the verses and all). I think the production is just right and Brian sounds less processed and more "in your face" than he has on recent efforts.

When Brian speaks of that long-jawed-about rock and roll album, I hope it's more material like this rather than covers. If so, please take my money.


Title: Re: \
Post by: RangeRoverA1 on September 21, 2017, 04:58:34 AM
though an "Al Jardine" album penned by Brian could be pretty amazing
Yes. But think you'll agree Brian really likes singing, no way he'd give away leads to Al, Blondie, smb. else.


Title: Re: \
Post by: KDS on September 21, 2017, 05:50:54 AM
though an "Al Jardine" album penned by Brian could be pretty amazing
Yes. But think you'll agree Brian really likes singing, no way he'd give away leads to Al, Blondie, smb. else.

He had no issues passing out lead vocals to multiple singers on his last solo album.   But, I'd rather hear more Al and Blondie with no outside guests. 


Title: Re: \
Post by: RangeRoverA1 on September 21, 2017, 06:02:09 AM
Meant to say "give away *every* lead". Since HeyJude said "Al Jardine" album, i.e. with Al leads only. Can't see it being possible. Brian's very into singing, esp. new songs. He may passed the leads to the other singers but he *still* did feature through No Pier Pressure, vocally.


Title: Re: \
Post by: KDS on September 21, 2017, 06:22:26 AM
Meant to say "give away *every* lead". Since HeyJude said "Al Jardine" album, i.e. with Al leads only. Can't see it being possible. Brian's very into singing, esp. new songs. He may passed the leads to the other singers but he *still* did feature through No Pier Pressure, vocally.

No, I don't see a Brian Wilson album where Brian doesn't have any leads. 

I think what HJ might've been referring to is a possible (not probably unlikely) scenario where Brian does some writing and producing for an Al solo album. 


Title: Re: \
Post by: HeyJude on September 21, 2017, 06:33:57 AM
Meant to say "give away *every* lead". Since HeyJude said "Al Jardine" album, i.e. with Al leads only. Can't see it being possible. Brian's very into singing, esp. new songs. He may passed the leads to the other singers but he *still* did feature through No Pier Pressure, vocally.

No, I don't see a Brian Wilson album where Brian doesn't have any leads. 

I think what HJ might've been referring to is a possible (not probably unlikely) scenario where Brian does some writing and producing for an Al solo album. 

Exactly, yes. I wasn't suggesting Brian morph a Brian solo album into an "Al Jardine" album by giving away all the songs. Rather, it would be a case of *separately* tackling a new Al solo album ("Even More Postcards from California!", whatever) and then hand-picking/writing songs for Al.


Title: Re: \
Post by: HeyJude on September 21, 2017, 06:38:17 AM
though an "Al Jardine" album penned by Brian could be pretty amazing
Yes. But think you'll agree Brian really likes singing, no way he'd give away leads to Al, Blondie, smb. else.

As already mentioned in my previous post, I wasn't talking about Brian giving away all the leads on a "Brian" album to Al, but rather separately working on an Al solo album (think "Spring", or "The Wilsons", etc.)

That being said, Brian actually has, especially recently, a stronger than usual track record for giving away leads to other singers on his own albums (and live shows for that matter). As I've often said, the first pseudo-single off NPP, "The Right Time", is for all intents and purposes nearly an "Al Jardine" solo track penned and produced by Brian (and Joe).


Title: Re: \
Post by: KDS on September 21, 2017, 06:42:28 AM
Meant to say "give away *every* lead". Since HeyJude said "Al Jardine" album, i.e. with Al leads only. Can't see it being possible. Brian's very into singing, esp. new songs. He may passed the leads to the other singers but he *still* did feature through No Pier Pressure, vocally.

No, I don't see a Brian Wilson album where Brian doesn't have any leads. 

I think what HJ might've been referring to is a possible (not probably unlikely) scenario where Brian does some writing and producing for an Al solo album. 

Exactly, yes. I wasn't suggesting Brian morph a Brian solo album into an "Al Jardine" album by giving away all the songs. Rather, it would be a case of *separately* tackling a new Al solo album ("Even More Postcards from California!", whatever) and then hand-picking/writing songs for Al.

Living the age of social media, how about "Facebook Selfie Post from California." 


Title: Re: \
Post by: RangeRoverA1 on September 21, 2017, 07:19:58 AM
Hate to get into semantics but, I didn't deny Brian's giving away the leads to Al etc. I added "every". No Pier Pressure's chockful with guest singers & even there he shares lead.

& thanks to correct the misunderstanding but I doubt that he'd give Al shine in Al's album alone. Esp. if Brian would be the writer. He'd be singing in any capacity. It goes back to the "Brian likes/ enjoys singing" bit.


Title: Re: \
Post by: HeyJude on September 21, 2017, 07:29:31 AM
Hate to get into semantics but, I didn't deny Brian's giving away the leads to Al etc. I added "every". No Pier Pressure's chockful with guest singers & even there he shares lead.

& thanks to correct the misunderstanding but I doubt that he'd give Al shine in Al's album alone. Esp. if Brian would be the writer. He'd be singing in any capacity. It goes back to the "Brian likes/ enjoys singing" bit.

Yes, and nobody ever suggested Brian ever had or ever would hand over *every* lead on one of his albums to someone else (it's not a bad idea in theory, for Brian to essentially serve the Van Dyke Parks role from "Orange Crate Art", but it's not something anybody has said has or ever would realistically happen).

Brian giving away a few songs for another artist's album doesn't preclude him from singing on his own album. He has given away (and/or picked, arranged, produced, etc.) tracks to artists in the past.

While it's highly unlikely Brian would have the time or interest to fully write and produce an Al album, if Al was working on an album and asked Brian to write (or dig into his bag of old songs for) a few things for Al's album and produce it, I don't see anything far-fetched about that in light of their post-2012 working relationship. Brian did this with "Everything I Need" for a Foskett album back in the 2000s, he did this with several songs on the "The Wilsons" album in 1997, and so on.


Title: Re: \
Post by: RangeRoverA1 on September 21, 2017, 07:42:32 AM
Yes, and nobody ever suggested Brian ever had or ever would hand over *every* lead on one of his albums to someone else (it's not a bad idea in theory, for Brian to essentially serve the Van Dyke Parks role from "Orange Crate Art", but it's not something anybody has said has or ever would realistically happen).
Yes, I got it by now.

Quote
While it's highly unlikely Brian would have the time or interest to fully write and produce an Al album, if Al was working on an album and asked Brian to write (or dig into his bag of old songs for) a few things for Al's album and produce it, I don't see anything far-fetched about that in light of their post-2012 working relationship.
Agree with these theories. It's good idea but here's the difference - your accent was about the Al album with Brian as the writer/ producer, when I paid attention to Brian's sharing leads with Al even in his album. If Postcard is indication, it's impossible for Brian to *just* write song without singing there (not really songs he did write, be it new or decades-old material). From that standpoint, full "Al Jardine" vocals album can't be. Coz, you know, Brian likes singing. I'd even say he likes it better than playing keyboards.


Title: Re: \
Post by: Wata on September 21, 2017, 08:18:27 AM
I think it'd be also very interesting to have a BW album produced by Al, considering his classic BB sound on his solo album.


Title: Re: \
Post by: thorgil on September 22, 2017, 07:03:09 PM
Oh my. I've just listened to RJR on the headphones for the first time (and second, and third...). I had to get up and dance to the music. It's AMAZING!
And RangeRover, thanks for making me notice the tambourine "carpet". :)


Title: Re: \
Post by: Don Malcolm on September 22, 2017, 07:49:20 PM
Right in the pocket of spring '65--right before the "fat" bass came into play. Ah, if we could only live in that time frame, before so much got so f'ed up--and I'm not just talking about Brian or the BBs, either. But it looks like Brian is gonna take us back there--hurray!

If he keeps this up (and why not??) they should title the LP "Brian Wilson Today."


Title: Re: \
Post by: petsoundsnola on September 25, 2017, 03:07:00 PM
Right in the pocket of spring '65--right before the "fat" bass came into play. Ah, if we could only live in that time frame, before so much got so f'ed up--and I'm not just talking about Brian or the BBs, either. But it looks like Brian is gonna take us back there--hurray!

If he keeps this up (and why not??) they should title the LP "Brian Wilson Today."

Nicely stated.  That is such a great timeframe, isn't it?  I love the Today! and Summer Days era.

Brian has been quoted as saying the sessions for California Girls and Let Him Run Wild were very "Up" - most likely meaning he was hitting his stride with the Wrecking Crew, having fun, and getting into the groove with his new vision of writing the songs at home and having the Boys spreading the gospel on the road.

It also reminds me of an Elvis Costello quote from Endless Harmony whereby he describes the Pet Sounds era (I believe it applies to this timeframe as well...

(quoting loosely)

"After things were young and silly, and before things got weird..."



Title: Re: \
Post by: Rick5150 on September 26, 2017, 02:18:37 AM
This is one of the catchiest songs from Brian in a long time. A fun, upbeat song that I find myself singing a lot during the day. Hard to believe he is 75 years old and putting out songs like this.

For some reason, the background vocals during the pre-chorus seemed really crowded and distracting on the first 2-3 listens, but during (many) subsequent listens they seemed to get less muddled.

The shimmery "run, James, run" at the 26-27 mark is a neat touch. Brian is not overly "barky" and the chorus is contagious and nearly perfect although I am not a fan of the "be the man" line. I do like how the background changes from "run, run, run" to "run, James, run". Cool guitar solo.

If this is any indication... I need Brian's rock and roll album. Now.


Title: Re: \
Post by: the captain on September 27, 2017, 05:08:37 PM
What are people's thoughts regarding the dramatic difference in the sound of the lead vocal in most of the refrain (starting with "you you better run, James, run") versus the final line ("be the man")?

It seems to me that the former is a blending of BW and someone else's voice, while the last line is all BW, sounding a lot more like the verses. But it could also just be a different vocal approach, different processing, etc. And mostly I'm hoping somebody just says smushing again.

(What I am hearing is plenty of that fluttering sound that to me seems to indicate some serious processing, not unlike Mike's voice in "Isn't It Time" after the Foskett falsetto part.)


Title: Re: \
Post by: Custom Machine on September 27, 2017, 06:39:59 PM

... Brian is not overly "barky" ...



What are people's thoughts regarding the dramatic difference in the sound of the lead vocal in most of the refrain (starting with "you you better run, James, run") versus the final line ("be the man")?

It seems to me that the former is a blending of BW and someone else's voice, while the last line is all BW, sounding a lot more like the verses. But it could also just be a different vocal approach, different processing, etc. And mostly I'm hoping somebody just says smushing again.

(What I am hearing is plenty of that fluttering sound that to me seems to indicate some serious processing, not unlike Mike's voice in "Isn't It Time" after the Foskett falsetto part.)


Yeah, in many parts it does sound like it is someone else's voice blended with BW's, along with some heavy processing. Or maybe it's just some very well done heavy duty processing, but to me it does sound like an additional voice. Whatever it is, Brian's voice sounds far better than it usually does. And the reduction in "barking" makes the listening experience easier on the ears as well, although IMO the song would sound better with even less "barking".



Title: Re: \
Post by: the captain on September 27, 2017, 07:05:02 PM
There were moments (especially early) in the refrain I felt I was hearing Al blended in, but I don't think that's the case ... which made me suspect maybe it's Matt (whose non-falsetto voice I'm not familiar with, but presumably would share some of Al's characteristics?).


Title: Re: \
Post by: Wirestone on September 27, 2017, 08:26:55 PM
I actually think that change in vocal texture between verses and choruses (or parts of the choruses) is one of the hooks to the song. It's the equivalent of a couple of different lead voices.


Title: Re: \
Post by: the captain on September 28, 2017, 05:07:35 AM
I don't dislike it. Just trying to discern whether it's all BW and, if not, who else is participating in the lead.


Title: Re: \
Post by: HeyJude on September 28, 2017, 06:36:27 AM
As I've previously mentioned (I believe), while "Run James Run" doesn't utilize quite the "lead vocal smushing" thing we've talked about in other discussions (mainly regarding TWGMTR), I think there are definitely points in the song's "lead" where multiple voices are singing, and it sure sounds like Al is in there at certain points on those choruses.

It would be interesting to know, assuming they utilized the NPP-era recording as a basis and then added things during sessions earlier this year, if Al (and Matt for that matter) attended this year's session. I'm curious if Al layered his voice in with Brian this year, of if they simply had Brian do a new lead this year and then retained some bits of Al's vocal tracks as well.


Title: Re: \
Post by: Wirestone on September 28, 2017, 08:14:50 AM
I wonder if the choruses, smushed up and all, date back a couple of years -- possibly produced by Joe and Brian -- and the verse vocals were tracked earlier this year with Brian alone producing.


Title: Re: \
Post by: HeyJude on September 28, 2017, 09:02:02 AM
I wonder if the choruses, smushed up and all, date back a couple of years -- possibly produced by Joe and Brian -- and the verse vocals were tracked earlier this year with Brian alone producing.

Seems quite plausible. In cases where Brian has handed the lead vocal off mostly to Al, he (Brian) still has some sort of moment when he's to the fore a bit more (e.g. "The Right Time"). So I could envision that the NPP-era "Run James Run" sounded pretty similar to the version we have, with Al simply singing those verses.

Clearly Brian should have done what Al did with "PT Cruiser" and simultaneously release five different mixes. Brian Mix, Al Mix, Matt Mix, Instrumental, and Mark McGrath Mix.....   :lol

"Run!...Run!....Run!.....Yeeeeahhhh!"


Title: Re: \
Post by: Michigander2122 on September 28, 2017, 09:16:49 AM
Ive been holding back with any new comments, but now i really feel that i need to inject my opinion . I love  RJR! Im disappointed in the overall CD. Greatest Hits? One For The Boys not on it? Your  Imagination ,the only top ten single Brian ever had as a solo artist not on it? Some Sweet Day  was the  record companies answer to what new fans like myself wanted to hear? Pretty sad. I still bought the CD!  On another front,This smushing conspiracy theory doesnt make any sense to me. Joe Thomas is the smusher from what im reading. He's not listed as the producer on TWGMTR yet  the theory is that he came in and while taking no credit caused all of the smashing? He  WAS credited on NPP and of course caused the smushing? And then even though he is credited with Brian as the co producer of RJR , which many of you admit sounds great, and i agree, he came in and  smushed one  line? The non smushed vocals were  taken from a session that he was  not in attendance ?  How do we know this? Or is this how it reads? Brian now  free this year finally  from the " shackles that were binding him down " ( Joe Thomas) un smushed a few new lines alone this year at the  session that Thomas was not part of!  Im just trying to get this all understood.  In the meantime i would prefer to  just sticking to the known facts. Im going to enjoy  the one new song that we all seem to agree is a step in the right direction! I  am happy that we have  an uptempo Rock Brian track with great guitar playing written by Brian and Thomas, and produced by Brian and Thomas, and sounding way more in line with what fans  my age ( 24 ) listen to, than the dated tracks that are being dusted off from the nineties. I do not care if  its Andy Paley , Joe Thomas, Mike Love or whomever Brian chooses to make new music with , I just want to hear NEW MUSIC from Brian. And I am sorry ,but I do not hear any smushing!


Title: Re: \
Post by: HeyJude on September 28, 2017, 09:26:45 AM
Ive been holding back with any new comments, but now i really feel that i need to inject my opinion . I love  RJR! Im disappointed in the overall CD. Greatest Hits? One For The Boys not on it? Your  Imagination ,the only top ten single Brian ever had as a solo artist not on it? Some Sweet Day  was the  record companies answer to what new fans like myself wanted to hear? Pretty sad. I still bought the CD!  On another front,This smushing conspiracy theory doesnt make any sense to me. Joe Thomas is the smusher from what im reading. He's not listed as the producer on TWGMTR yet  the theory is that he came in and while taking no credit caused all of the smashing? He  WAS credited on NPP and of course caused the smushing? And then even though he is credited with Brian as the co producer of RJR , which many of you admit sounds great, and i agree, he came in and  smushed one  line? The non smushed vocals were  taken from a session that he was  not in attendance ?  How do we know this? Or is this how it reads? Brian now  free this year finally  from the " shackles that were binding him down " ( Joe Thomas) un smushed a few new lines alone this year at the  session that Thomas was not part of!  Im just trying to get this all understood.  In the meantime i would prefer to  just sticking to the known facts. Im going to enjoy  the one new song that we all seem to agree is a step in the right direction! I  am happy that we have  an uptempo Rock Brian track with great guitar playing written by Brian and Thomas, and produced by Brian and Thomas, and sounding way more in line with what fans  my age ( 24 ) listen to, than the dated tracks that are being dusted off from the nineties. I do not care if  its Andy Paley , Joe Thomas, Mike Love or whomever Brian chooses to make new music with , I just want to hear NEW MUSIC from Brian. And I am sorry ,but I do not hear any smushing!

There's no conspiracy theory regarding the "smushing" vocal effect. It's just something we've noticed that is prevalent to varying degrees on a few recent projects. Nobody has said it's done by the hand of one person. It's impossible to know. I'm guessing both Brian and Joe Thomas wanted the stuff to sound that way.

Joe Thomas arguably had a *stronger* hand in the TWGMTR album than he did on NPP. The producer credits/non-credits are just a PR/political thing. I think they wanted "Produced by Brian Wilson" to be on the BB reunion album, so Thomas settled for a strange "Recorded by" credit (and I'm guessing traded an actual producer credit for a few "producer points" on the album).

Most accounts I've seen of NPP indicate Thomas was heavily involved to a similar degree as TWGMTR up to a point, and then later sessions didn't involve him as much (or maybe at all). Nevertheless, he surely warranted a co-producer credit given the work that he *did* do on it.

Regarding the Brian CD, it's not a "Greatest Hits" CD, because Brian hasn't really had any "hit" singles/songs as a solo artist. (I'm not sure which chart had "Your Imagination" in the Top 10, maybe it was the AC charts or something, but it certainly didn't hit Top 10 on the Billboard singles chart). The CD is an "anthology" of what he (apparently) feels is some of his best work. I think we'd all pick slightly different songs. Most of us agree "Your Imagination" was a no-brainer. I probably wouldn't have ever gone with "One for the Boys", which I think is okay but not among his best works of that type.


Title: Re: \
Post by: the captain on September 28, 2017, 09:27:05 AM
I don't see any conspiracy being suggested, or even real criticism. We're just discussing some interesting audible aspects of the song and wondering--yes, speculating--how it was done.

I enjoy RJR.

Thomas did work on both twgmtr and npp though.


Title: Re: \
Post by: guitarfool2002 on September 28, 2017, 10:08:07 AM
Here's what I don't understand, and it's just my opinion. Regarding the vocals on NPP, the engineer Wesley Seidman who sat elbow to elbow with Brian as they mixed the tracks for NPP described in detail with specifics what was done, down to which rooms at Ocean Way were used for which tracks, and also the specific types and models of mics and outboard gear that was used. I posted that several years ago, and will post it again. If there is any doubt about what was or wasn't done or used, I have a hard time thinking what more people would want to know short of a track-by-track dissection of the dozens of individual numbered tracks that were mixed together to make the NPP final mix.

And ultimately, it comes down to using your own ears. This isn't meant to sound like it's talking down or trying to squash speculation, but if someone has worked for years with this gear and knows what an 1176 does to a track versus an LA-2A versus an Empirical Labs Distressor...that's part of knowing what certain gear sounds like, just like a guitarist can hear when a Fender Strat was recorded in the out-of-phase "in between" pickup position versus a Les Paul with humbuckers. It's part of knowing the tools of the trade.\

This "smooshing" or whatever it's being called? Anyone with Garage Band on a Mac product can try this. Sing "Mary Had A Little Lamb" on track 1. Sing the exact same thing over it on track 2. Then do the same thing again on track 3. Combine them all and listen to the effect it creates. That's manual double-tracking. Triple tracking. Quadruple tracking. That's what a lot of Brian's vocals had dating back to the 60's and all that stuff was bounced down to a mono track.

Now try this. Record "Mary Had A Little Lamb" on track 1. Copy and paste that exact track to track 2. Then copy and paste again to track 3. You have three exact copies of the same vocal playing together. There is no effect because it's exactly the same. Now...take the copy on track 2, and throw the pitch ever so slightly flat on that track. Then take the copy on track 3 and throw the pitch ever so slightly sharp. Now combine them together and listen. That is the effect of ADT/automatic double tracking as made famous by Abbey Road as done in the digital age with the most basic tools on any DAW.

Sound "smooshed"?

Ok...then listen to, oh, Mike Love's last few single releases. *That* is Autotune. Not "smooshing", not ADT, but Autotune. Listen to some of Mike's early 90's or even 80's solo attempts and demos. Do they sound "smooshed"? Consider there was a ubiquitous piece of gear called the Eventide Harmonizer in various incarnations that was used to create certain stacked and layered vocal effects, and to also in some cases hide pitchy vocal tracks. Sometimes it's easy to pick out and all kinds of engineers and producers kind of went mad with it throughout the 80's and 90's depending on the style and sound they were mixing for. It's on everything from Bon Jovi guitar solos to (insert artist name here) lead vocals on hit records.

So as someone with a half-decent ear and some experience twiddling the knobs and pushing all those little buttons "all in" on the old 1176...it's sometimes funny to see/read/hear the speculation still going on about Brian's vocals and NPP when the guy who actually mixed the majority of that record is on the record describing what was done.

And there are photos that showed up on social media not long ago showing Brian tracking vocals to Run James Run. Recent, not years ago.

My 2 cents. Happy listening!  :)


Title: Re: \
Post by: guitarfool2002 on September 28, 2017, 10:08:33 AM
For reference and refresh:

http://mixonline.com/recording/artists_engineers_producers/brian_wilson_and_friends_at_ocean_way_studios/ (http://mixonline.com/recording/artists_engineers_producers/brian_wilson_and_friends_at_ocean_way_studios/)

Between Brian Wilson and Ocean Way Studios, Hollywood, you’ve got a whole lot of history, and a lot of musical possibilities.

Wilson began his latest project—an upcoming album of solo performances and duets with famous guests—in the three-studio complex a year-and-a-half ago. Now, fans are waiting with baited breath to hear the tracks, which at press time were being mixed by Bob Clearmountain.

“When Brian finished that last Beach Boys record [That’s Why God Made the Radio, 2012], he soon after began work on this one,” says Ocean Way’s senior staff engineer, Wesley Seidman, who recorded the new tracks. “Brian never stops writing. He’ll come in with a vocal idea, a piano demo that he made on his Dictaphone at home or he will just sit at the piano in the live room, and quickly those ideas become a song.”

Seidman captured the performances to Pro Tools in all three of the studios at Ocean Way (A, B and D), but the engineer says Wilson prefers to do live band tracking and orchestral sections in Studio B, a room that has also hosted sessions for award-winning albums by Green Day, Radiohead, and Eric Clapton with B.B. King: “It’s just the sound and feel of the room itself, and the [custom 56-Input 8068/8088] Neve doesn’t hurt,” Seidman says. “He did almost all of the work on his solo records in there. But he also likes Studio A, where we cut a few tracks and is my favorite room for strings. We also cut a lot of the background vocals and guest vocals for the new album in D.”

Though the final track list wasn’t available at press time, Seidman reveals that guests who cut with Wilson for this upcoming album include musician/producer/label exec Don Was on bass; guitarist Dean Parks; drummers Jim Keltner and Kenny Aronoff; and in-demand vocalists such as Zooey Deschanel, country star Kacey Musgraves, Nate Ruess of Fun., and popular singer/songwriter Lana Del Rey.

Wilson’s vocals were recorded in all three rooms with a Neumann U 47. In Studio A, his voice went through the modified Focusrite console to a Teletronix LA-2A. “In D, we would go through the remote Neve pre’s into an [Universal Audio] 1176, and then toward the last third of the record, I purchased a modified API mic pre, which has amazing bandwidth, and sent the 47 through that, into an 1176. And this is all flat—Brian EQs himself by moving around the mic, which he does naturally. We also used a plethora of [UAD] reverb and delay plug-ins. This enabled us to automate the delay and reverb times for each section of the songs where desired. Brian and I both like the FX to be just right.

“It’s always a pleasure to record such a talented and professional artist like Brian,” Seidman continues. “He also is actually a very funny person. He’s one of the few people able to make me laugh out loud on a regular basis.”

One of the advantages of working in a studio with Ocean Way’s history and reputation is the opportunity to audition new equipment, alongside the vintage. On Wilson’s sessions, Seidman tried out a batch of brand-new Sanken microphones.

“Jim Pace brought us these super-high-fidelity mics—the C0-100Ks,” says Seidman whose nine years and counting at Ocean Way were preceded by stints with Nathaniel Kunkel and Conway Studios. “We tried them on drum overheads, orchestra and horn rooms—they were really amazing. We also used them on a mandolin and acoustic lap steel. Another mic they gave us was the CU-55, which is my new favorite acoustic guitar and banjo mic. It really captures the instrument as it is. It complements the dynamics, so there was no need for a compressor. It’s one of my future purchases for sure.

“Ocean Way is one of only a handful of studios left where you get the opportunity to try the latest things in a controlled environment,” Seidman says. “I also think that musicians actually play differently when they’re there. I’ve worked with a lot of these same players in other places and they’re always amazing, but it’s almost like they get into a different zone when recording in these rooms. There is something very unique about the way the rooms sound and feel at Ocean Way, to the point where I’ve had friends call me up and ask, ‘Was this done at Ocean Way?’ They can tell. They’re getting some kind of overall picture of the rooms themselves and the way people play when they record in them.”


Title: Re: \
Post by: the captain on September 28, 2017, 10:20:35 AM
doubling, tripling, etc isn't what we've been talking about, but as always your patronizing tone is appreciated.

And for the record, it's "smushed." I've posted at length before. Feel free to go read it again. (Not really, I'm just being a dick here.)


Title: Re: \
Post by: guitarfool2002 on September 28, 2017, 10:28:42 AM
doubling, tripling, etc isn't what we've been talking about, but as always your patronizing tone is appreciated.

And for the record, it's "smushed." I've posted at length before. Feel free to go read it again. (Not really, I'm just being a dick here.)

Yes, you are being a dick. I agree. If you take it as patronizing, that's your bag. At some point if there are people who actually did the work on the album/tracks saying how things were done, and other people who have experience with recording and mixing giving their 2-cents as in hands on experience, consider listening to them.

If some fans don't know what manual versus digital doubletracking sounds like on vocals, the recipe is given above for them to try on their own setups. Then see how much of this abhorrent, overused "processing" people complain about is actually that more than someone smearing digital rackmount or plugin effects on Brian's (or whoever else's) vocal tracks like putting globs of butter on a hot dinner roll.

Patronizing? Sure.


Title: Re: \
Post by: the captain on September 28, 2017, 10:30:33 AM
You forgot to reference the attempted coups and banned members.


Title: Re: \
Post by: guitarfool2002 on September 28, 2017, 10:32:41 AM
You forgot to reference the attempted coups and banned members.

You mean failed coups? There, I just mentioned them. Banned members? You know where to rub elbows with them if you choose. That's past history, sport.


Title: Re: \
Post by: Michigander2122 on September 28, 2017, 10:36:53 AM
I actually appreciate the response! Its becoming clearer to me.

1) With respect to my previous statement I do stand corrected, according to Wikipedia, Your Imagination was Top Twenty on the Billboard AC Charts. My point is that it still should be on this anthology

2) I love the explanation by Seidman as to how HE recorded Brian. No mention of Joe Thomas smooshing though. So if Seidman is the guy recording this, Why isn't he accused of being the smoosher?

3) I am a bigger Stevie Nicks fan than Brian. A Joe Thomas is listed as a producer or co producer on several of her releases. Is this the same guy?

4) A Bob Clearmountan is listed as mixer on NPP. If Seidman was mixing elbow to elbow with Brian on NPP, why wasn't Clearmountain mentioned in the Seidman article? Why isn't Seidman listed as mixer?

5) When you read about NPP on Wikipedia, there are accusations that Thomas auto tuned the album. If Seidman mixed or Clearmountain mixed, did Thomas steal the tapes and Auto tune and smoosh them while all of these other guys weren't looking?

Joe Thomas must have the worst publicist in the world.  Or he just doesn't care or realize what people are saying about him. Andy Paley is listed on the Imagination WIKI page as bashing him. To me Paley  really comes off as pretty jealous. So do a couple of other people on that WIKI page. On the NPP page they reference other bashers. Yet we never or almost never hear from Thomas. Or do we and Im to new to have noticed?

If i were this guy I would say something.


Title: Re: \
Post by: the captain on September 28, 2017, 10:41:20 AM
Attempted would imply failed or I'd have just said coup.

But really, smushing: what I've described and meant by this isn't just doubling or otherwise multitracking vocals. It has been what seems to be often seamless blending of lines across people. A Brian-into-Matt that's suddenly Brian again, for example, especially when it's not as easy to detect because of numerous parts going on to distract. Or in RJR, in the refrain, hints of different people's voices (based on timbre, pronunciation) without it being obvious throughout that they're both/all there or obvious edits/break points. That's explicitly what I've been talking about (in a complimentary way, by the way). Your parachuting in to condescend about doubling, how we should have memorized your irrelevant previous NPP post, and the implication that we were being negative, is pretty annoying. So yeah, I'm not above being sarcastic in return.

I hope you now know the glory of the smush. All hail King Smush.


Title: Re: \
Post by: the captain on September 28, 2017, 10:43:30 AM
Or he just doesn't care


I'd guess that's the case.


Title: Re: \
Post by: Wirestone on September 28, 2017, 10:49:39 AM
Actually, the first time I was aware of this in a Brian Wilson solo recording was on "Wonderful" from BWPS, where the lead is a combination of Brian vocal tracks (at least a couple) and at least one of Jeff, mixed so it's like a third voice.


Title: Re: \
Post by: the captain on September 28, 2017, 10:54:27 AM
Actually, the first time I was aware of this in a Brian Wilson solo recording was on "Wonderful" from BWPS, where the lead is a combination of Brian vocal tracks (at least a couple) and at least one of Jeff, mixed so it's like a third voice.
To me, that was the more standard idea of a stronger singer doubling the weaker one with the stronger one emphasized and then more or less solo when out of the weaker one's range. What really turned me on more recently was how it began feeling like a magic trick full of misdirection, or where the transition seemed unnoticeable until after it had happened.


Title: Re: \
Post by: guitarfool2002 on September 28, 2017, 10:55:59 AM
I actually appreciate the response! Its becoming clearer to me.

1) With respect to my previous statement I do stand corrected, according to Wikipedia, Your Imagination was Top Twenty on the Billboard AC Charts. My point is that it still should be on this anthology

2) I love the explanation by Seidman as to how HE recorded Brian. No mention of Joe Thomas smooshing though. So if Seidman is the guy recording this, Why isn't he accused of being the smoosher?

3) I am a bigger Stevie Nicks fan than Brian. A Joe Thomas is listed as a producer or co producer on several of her releases. Is this the same guy?

4) A Bob Clearmountan is listed as mixer on NPP. If Seidman was mixing elbow to elbow with Brian on NPP, why wasn't Clearmountain mentioned in the Seidman article? Why isn't Seidman listed as mixer?

5) When you read about NPP on Wikipedia, there are accusations that Thomas auto tuned the album. If Seidman mixed or Clearmountain mixed, did Thomas steal the tapes and Auto tune and smoosh them while all of these other guys weren't looking?

Joe Thomas must have the worst publicist in the world.  Or he just doesn't care or realize what people are saying about him. Andy Paley is listed on the Imagination WIKI page as bashing him. To me Paley  really comes off as pretty jealous. So do a couple of other people on that WIKI page. On the NPP page they reference other bashers. Yet we never or almost never hear from Thomas. Or do we and Im to new to have noticed?

If i were this guy I would say something.


Produced by Brian Wilson and Joe Thomas
Bonus Tracks Produced by Brian Wilson
Arranged by Brian Wilson

Mixed by Bob Clearmountain at Mix This! Los Angeles, CA
Recorded by Frank Pappalardo, Wesley M. Seidman, Bill Hare
Additional Mixing by Brian Wilson, Frank Pappalardo, Wesley M. Seidman, Bill Hare, Joe Thomas, Mark Linett
Additional Engineers: Sergio Ruelas, Jr., Larry Millas, Mike Czaszwicz, Gary Griffin, Nick Rowe, Andrew Twiss, Nick Walusko, Darian Sahanaja, Mark Linett, Steve Desper
Assistant Engineers: Mickey Evelyn, Rouble Kapoor, Leslie Richter, Patrick DeWitte, Tyler Parkinson
Studios: Ocean Way Recording, Hollywood, CA; Grand Victor Sound Recording, Nashville, TN; Behind The Car Wash, St. Charles, IL; Legacy Studio, Burr Ridge, IL; CRC, Chicago, IL; Tomorrow Labs Studio, Los Angeles, CA; Rax Trax Recording, Chicago, IL; Wet Dog Studio, Los Angeles, CA

Sebu's Vocals Recorded at Stereotrain Studios


It would be helpful if there is a question about credits to hear from Bob Clearmountain himself what he did or didn't do regarding the NPP album. But if the names of the people are known to fans reading those credits, it's pretty easy to piece together who did what on the various tracks. And also, despite some grumbling from various fans and banned members of this forum a few years ago, it's also relatively easy to see why there were so many listings for recording locations and engineers considering how some of the tracks were assembled from existing recordings, how guest artists like Sebu or Peter Hollens may have cut certain tracks on their own, why multiple studios based in Illinois are cited, etc. It all makes sense.

And if Wes Seidman describes adding specific reverbs and whatnot to the tracks, with Brian working next to him, that's part of the mixing process too, I'd say. Which is why they get credited, perhaps. As far as Bob's credits, having a fresh set of ears do a final mix and/or mastering is standard practice. Nothing clandestine or shifty going on, and nothing outside the norm especially with a major label release.


Title: Re: \
Post by: guitarfool2002 on September 28, 2017, 11:14:14 AM
If multiple voices or vocalists are singing the same line, the same phrase and melody notes, and it's doubling an existing part or vocal, the same effect will be created as ADT or "doubling" as in manual double tracking. If it's in the same range, same octave, same line, the same swirling/chorusing effect will happen. Not exactly like the same voice doing the double, but the same effects will happen. Brian was doing this technique in the 60's as we all know.

It is funny to see the various conspiracies of clandestine mixing, adding effects in secret mix sessions, somehow hijacking the tapes and adding things after the fact forgetting that any final mixing and mastering would get approval before going to the pressing stage...and it's even more hilarious to see some between the lines implications through the years suggesting Brian himself was merely a passenger on the train and had little input into how the final product actually sounded. Had that happened in the past? To some degree, yes it did. And where that seemed to be the case, I think it's a bit easier to pick out given the surroundings and circumstances. But on NPP? No, this was not the case no matter what the internet says. Unless Brian, Wesley, and others who were actually there and involved are all lying to perpetrate a mythology and hide the truth.  :lol

The real shame is that the NPP album to my ears sounds amazing, and on audiophile terms alone it is a fantastic sounding, pure mix considering how many instruments and vocals some of the tracks feature. The mix breathes, it has depth and definition, and very little of the layered sounds and tracks get buried in washes of sound and effects as could easily happen with this many tracks. It's an audiophile quality mix. It's a shame various political influences combined with sheer ignorance clouded the fact that the album sounds terrific and is a great high-quality listen on purely audiophile terms.


Title: Re: \
Post by: the captain on September 28, 2017, 11:17:07 AM
Who is talking conspiracies or diminishing Brian?

And again, I explicitly excluded simple doubling (whether with the same or multiple singers).

I think you're playing defense against an imaginary offense.


Title: Re:
Post by: ♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇 on September 28, 2017, 11:17:41 AM
In addition to what GF said above...heavy compression on top of the tracking techniques, mixed with liberal use of a de-esser, can create a "warbly" sound (or "smushing") . Having used this effect many many times over the years, on outside productions  I can personally attest to it. I've done this on sessions some years ago when the artist wanted the , ahem, "Cher" effect on his vocals, and I didn't have access to the unit (this was before the Autotune VDI plug in). But I tricked him into thinking it was used!


Title: Re: \
Post by: the captain on September 28, 2017, 11:31:36 AM
Gotta be pedantic with you billy: the warble isn't the smush (at least as I've been describing it). But yes, the warble is easier to explain. (Anyone who has ever tuned a guitar by tuning one string to another understands how that works.) I didn't know about the heavy compression and de-essing method though.


Title: Re:
Post by: ♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇 on September 28, 2017, 11:37:55 AM
Gotta be pedantic with you billy: the warble isn't the smush (at least as I've been describing it). But yes, the warble is easier to explain. (Anyone who has ever tuned a guitar by tuning one string to another understands how that works.) I didn't know about the heavy compression and de-essing method though.

Good point.  I couldn't think of the exact term to use.

I spend a lot of time experimenting with trying to recreate effects manually.  It's fun for me actually, creating my own effects.  Much better than using presets!


Title: Re: \
Post by: Wirestone on September 28, 2017, 11:40:39 AM
No one is saying anything clandestine happened or without Brian's knowledge.

We're simply noting something that is audible on TWGMTR and NPP, which is that bits of other singers' vocals are sometimes mixed in -- smushed -- with Brian's chorused leads. I didn't think this was controversial, or something that we needed to have an inquisition about.

Obviously, this doesn't happen on something like "One Kind of Love" or other barer, single-tracked style lead vocals. But Brian is doubling up with Al and Matt and Jeff all over NPP. And I don't see why it wasn't his conscious decision -- even Ray Lawlor once noted how great it sounded when Brian and Al sang a lead in unison. It wouldn't be odd to then favor one track or another while mixing.


Title: Re: \
Post by: HeyJude on September 28, 2017, 11:41:03 AM
Yeah, I think part of the problem here is:

1. The "smushing" discussion took place, at least on my part, in a different thread concerning the TWGMTR album.

2. Nobody made any accusations, or floated conspiracy theories, or even really questioned how or why it was done. It was really truly just a case of "that record sounds like several voices smushed together", along with in some cases people saying they didn't prefer that sound, or did prefer that sound, or were ambivalent about it.

For instance, I'm not a big fan of it in general. I prefer clear, upfront, often dry lead vocals. The "smush" we talked about is more than just double-tracking (or ADT, etc.). As Wirestone mentioned, it's more the mixing of multiple voices together (two, or sometimes more) to create a "voice" that sounds like a *third* voice.

This isn't the same as Lennon and McCartney uncannily singing in unison on early Beatles records, or individual Beatles or whomever double tracking their own voice.

The "smush" effect may be functionally done in the same fashion in the literal sense of combining multiple vocal passes. But it ends up as Wirestone mentioned, "smushed' together where the individual components aren't easily discernible and often creates a sort of "new" voice. I have no doubt everything in the performance and recording chain contribute to this sound.

On some of the "lead" vocals on TWGMTR, for instance the title track, there are times during the lead where it's clearly several voices, but it ends up sounding a bit cluttered or muddy in my opinion. It starts sounding like two Brians, then two Als, then one of each, then a weird sort of third voice. Compare the verse lines in "That's Why God Made the Radio" to the opening lines of, say, "This Beautiful Day." Those are the two extremes we're talking about.

I'm not questioning *how* they did this; I know how. I suppose I don't specifically know why, though "it's what Brian and Joe wanted" is as good an answer as any, and sufficient for me.

Even describing the "smushing" effect was only undertaken so folks could understand what we're talking about.

I dig double tracking vocals in certain circumstances, where it's still clear and fresh and not super processed. Listen to the final lines of Al's recording of "California Feelin'." That's some old school double tracking. It's still very clear. You can hear Al doubled up.

Wirestone's citing of the '04 version of "Wonderful" is a *perfect* example of the "third voice" effect. Another good example would be the final lines of "Free As A Bird", where McCartney's voice and Lennon's demo vocal have been combined and do a pretty effective of job of sounding more like one beefed-up voice. McCartney actually shadowed that lead through most of the song, though how much his vocal peeks through depends on which mix you listen to (there are at least four to choose from).


Title: Re:
Post by: guitarfool2002 on September 28, 2017, 11:41:43 AM
In addition to what GF said above...heavy compression on top of the tracking techniques, mixed with liberal use of a de-esser, can create a "warbly" sound (or "smushing") . Having used this effect many many times over the years, on outside productions  I can personally attest to it. I've done this on sessions some years ago when the artist wanted the , ahem, "Cher" effect on his vocals, and I didn't have access to the unit (this was before the Autotune VDI plug in). But I tricked him into thinking it was used!

That's one of the main issues I think - not just in these cases but with some of the reactions and theories behind NPP - A lot of very musical, very experienced musicians and people in general might hear something like a compressor pumping hard and various filters and gates and EQ applications without knowing what is creating those sounds and think it's something akin to Autotune. If someone wants Autotune on a track and can be convinced that a chain of other effects is Autotune, or the sounds satisfy their requests and they're happy as a studio client, then that's a good result all around. If someone hears compression and doubling and chorusing and gating and whatnot as "Autotune" and wants to use it as a knock against the engineer/mixer or artist in general for using such an abhorrent effect...then they simply are talking sh*t on something they don't comprehend. There is a difference.

But the fact that doubling effects and other uses of effect chains can be misheard as Autotune says a lot.


Title: Re: \
Post by: guitarfool2002 on September 28, 2017, 11:44:03 AM
Listen to the Heroes And Villains mix where Mike and Brian share leads on the verses. 1967, 50 years ago. Precedent much? Or some Pet Sounds vocals too. Same deal.


Title: Re: \
Post by: guitarfool2002 on September 28, 2017, 11:45:52 AM
No one is saying anything clandestine happened or without Brian's knowledge.

We're simply noting something that is audible on TWGMTR and NPP, which is that bits of other singers' vocals are sometimes mixed in -- smushed -- with Brian's chorused leads. I didn't think this was controversial, or something that we needed to have an inquisition about.

Obviously, this doesn't happen on something like "One Kind of Love" or other barer, single-tracked style lead vocals. But Brian is doubling up with Al and Matt and Jeff all over NPP. And I don't see why it wasn't his conscious decision -- even Ray Lawlor once noted how great it sounded when Brian and Al sang a lead in unison. It wouldn't be odd to then favor one track or another while mixing.

My reference was to a narrative that existed before common sense took over, and a narrative that still exists in some circles. Not specifically here. But relative to the same points.


Title: Re: \
Post by: HeyJude on September 28, 2017, 11:46:40 AM
No one is saying anything clandestine happened or without Brian's knowledge.

We're simply noting something that is audible on TWGMTR and NPP, which is that bits of other singers' vocals are sometimes mixed in -- smushed -- with Brian's chorused leads. I didn't think this was controversial, or something that we needed to have an inquisition about.

Obviously, this doesn't happen on something like "One Kind of Love" or other barer, single-tracked style lead vocals. But Brian is doubling up with Al and Matt and Jeff all over NPP. And I don't see why it wasn't his conscious decision -- even Ray Lawlor once noted how great it sounded when Brian and Al sang a lead in unison. It wouldn't be odd to then favor one track or another while mixing.

Another good point; while I'm not a big fan of the "smush", I do think Brian and Al singing together (even in a bit of a "smush") sounds good, and I think it's pretty remarkable how Al could sound uncannily like Brian back in the 60s and I the present day, despite their voices in many ways sounding quite different from each other, can still once again lock in and sound quite similar.

I remember first listening to the TWGMTR album, and hearing the clear Al "doo-doo-doo" backgrounds on "Think About the Days",  and then thinking I was hearing Al doing similar background vocalizations on another track, and then realizing it was actually Brian kind of sounding like Al (or vice versa, depending on how you look at it).


Title: Re: \
Post by: the captain on September 28, 2017, 11:47:36 AM
I wish you'd said "this doesn't apply to anything anyone is saying here, but..."

We could've avoided a lot of back and forth.

Though anytime I can say smush, I'm happy

(This is in re GF's most recent post. Clarifying since I was slow on the draw)


Title: Re: \
Post by: bonnevillemariner on September 28, 2017, 11:59:54 AM
If I'm understanding the "smush" correctly, it's used quite effectively on "The Private Life of Bill and Sue" where Brian becomes Jeff and then Brian again. It also might be what's happening on the BWPS "Surf's Up."

It seems to me that it's used primarily because Brian's range has diminished to the point where hitting lines like "Do-o-mi-no" alone is impossible. So I don't love it, per se, but it also doesn't bug me. If the goal is to achieve a certain sound, and the only way to do so is smushing (I think we need to come up with a more appropriate word), it's fine by me.


Title: Re: \
Post by: HeyJude on September 28, 2017, 12:21:03 PM
If I'm understanding the "smush" correctly, it's used quite effectively on "The Private Life of Bill and Sue" where Brian becomes Jeff and then Brian again. It also might be what's happening on the BWPS "Surf's Up."

It seems to me that it's used primarily because Brian's range has diminished to the point where hitting lines like "Do-o-mi-no" alone is impossible. So I don't love it, per se, but it also doesn't bug me. If the goal is to achieve a certain sound, and the only way to do so is smushing (I think we need to come up with a more appropriate word), it's fine by me.

Melding Brian's mid-range into another vocalist's high range is certainly one potential use.

But for things like the verses of TWGMTR, it's totally in Brian's range. So again, I'm not sure precisely *why* they mixed/recorded some of the "lead" vocals in that fashion. Trying to "beef up" the sound is one possibility. Trying to "fix" slightly shaky leads without resorting to autotune is another possibility. Just *liking* that sound is of course another.

I think both Brian and Al (and of course Matt, and so on) can still do good lead vocals. So my personal preference is not for the "smush" to be too prevalent.


Title: Re:
Post by: ♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇 on September 28, 2017, 12:21:31 PM
Amen to using a different word.. I misunderstood what was being discussed and was addressing the Autotune questions and not the smush


Title: Re: \
Post by: bonnevillemariner on September 28, 2017, 12:23:35 PM
Trying to "beef up" the sound is one possibility. Trying to "fix" slightly shaky leads without resorting to autotune is another possibility. Just *liking* that sound is of course another.

Gotcha. I guess the times I notice it the most are when I'm specifically listening for how Brian is going to pull off a higher range part.


Title: Re: \
Post by: Wirestone on September 28, 2017, 12:23:41 PM
"Surf's Up" is more of a live performance fix that made it onto record -- Brian slides into a lower harmony part while Jeff scales the high notes. It was something they worked out for concerts years before recording the album.

But "Bill and Sue" is a great example, as is the chorus to "Shelter," which seems to be either Mike, Brian, Jeff or some blend of all three.


Title: Re: \
Post by: NateRuvin on September 28, 2017, 12:23:48 PM
Yeah I thought smushing referred to doubles or alternate musicians singing the SAME parts.


Title: Re: \
Post by: the captain on September 28, 2017, 12:25:37 PM
Fine but now I'm going to talk about former NBA player Smush Parker. Gotta get my smush fix.

(I still think we're conflating different things. Similar but not quite the same.)


Title: Re:
Post by: HeyJude on September 28, 2017, 12:26:08 PM
Amen to using a different word.. I misunderstood what was being discussed and was addressing the Autotune questions and not the smush

I'm not sure whether I should be taking credit for it, nor am I sure I want to, but I may have been the first to use the "smushing" term to describe some of the TWGMTR vocals. It was my way of trying to describe the sound where the vocals are mixed in a weird way where the lead vocals are sometimes smushed together to where you can't really pinpoint one single voice singing one, single-tracked lead.

It starts with recording multiple lead vocal tracks. (Sometimes backing vocals weave through as well). I think the performance of each track, and then the combination of those tracks, combined with how they are processed, combined with how they're mixed, combined with how everything is mastered, all play a role in the end result.


Title: Re: \
Post by: HeyJude on September 28, 2017, 12:29:30 PM
I also think that the C50 band trying to replicate the sound of the studio recording of "That's Why God Made the Radio", with multiple lead vocalists, may have also contributed to why that one particular song often sounded wonky during what were otherwise amazing live shows. Most live performances during that tour of that particular song (including some TV appearances) tended to range from "okay" to "very close to going off the rails."


Title: Re:
Post by: guitarfool2002 on September 28, 2017, 07:21:42 PM
Amen to using a different word.. I misunderstood what was being discussed and was addressing the Autotune questions and not the smush

A few of us seem to have misunderstood just what was being discussed. Ditch the word.  :)


Title: Re:
Post by: Custom Machine on September 28, 2017, 07:49:57 PM
Amen to using a different word.. I misunderstood what was being discussed and was addressing the Autotune questions and not the smush

A few of us seem to have misunderstood just what was being discussed. Ditch the word.  :)


If so, then replace it with what? IMO, "smushing" sounds good enough to become a recording industry standard term.



Title: Re:
Post by: guitarfool2002 on September 28, 2017, 08:34:30 PM
Amen to using a different word.. I misunderstood what was being discussed and was addressing the Autotune questions and not the smush

A few of us seem to have misunderstood just what was being discussed. Ditch the word.  :)


If so, then replace it with what? IMO, "smushing" sounds good enough to become a recording industry standard term.



Doubley

(https://i1.wp.com/spinaltapminute.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/This.Is_.Spinal.Tap_.Minute042.jpg?resize=300%2C161)


Title: Re:
Post by: ForHerCryingSoul on September 29, 2017, 12:34:00 AM
I'm not sure whether I should be taking credit for it, nor am I sure I want to, but I may have been the first to use the "smushing" term to describe some of the TWGMTR vocals. It was my way of trying to describe the sound where the vocals are mixed in a weird way where the lead vocals are sometimes smushed together to where you can't really pinpoint one single voice singing one, single-tracked lead.

It starts with recording multiple lead vocal tracks. (Sometimes backing vocals weave through as well). I think the performance of each track, and then the combination of those tracks, combined with how they are processed, combined with how they're mixed, combined with how everything is mastered, all play a role in the end result.
To me personally, the "smushing" is the main criticism I have on TWGMtR and (sometimes on) NPP. I think it's a good word to describe it.  I have also heard it on BWPS, which is also the main reason I prefer the Smile Sessions over the 2004 release...


Title: Re:
Post by: Aomdiddlywalla on October 14, 2017, 01:17:50 AM
I'm not sure whether I should be taking credit for it, nor am I sure I want to, but I may have been the first to use the "smushing" term to describe some of the TWGMTR vocals. It was my way of trying to describe the sound where the vocals are mixed in a weird way where the lead vocals are sometimes smushed together to where you can't really pinpoint one single voice singing one, single-tracked lead.

It starts with recording multiple lead vocal tracks. (Sometimes backing vocals weave through as well). I think the performance of each track, and then the combination of those tracks, combined with how they are processed, combined with how they're mixed, combined with how everything is mastered, all play a role in the end result.
To me personally, the "smushing" is the main criticism I have on TWGMtR and (sometimes on) NPP. I think it's a good word to describe it.  I have also heard it on BWPS, which is also the main reason I prefer the Smile Sessions over the 2004 release...


So you should.


Title: Re: \
Post by: “Big Daddy” on October 20, 2017, 10:27:03 AM
Haven’t seen anyone share this clip from a couple days back yet: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wmcdGeZfOW8. Nice little webisode about “Run James Run” featuring Brian and Joe Thomas.


Title: Re: \
Post by: HeyJude on October 20, 2017, 11:25:20 AM
Haven’t seen anyone share this clip from a couple days back yet: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wmcdGeZfOW8. Nice little webisode about “Run James Run” featuring Brian and Joe Thomas.

I saw this the other day. Joe Thomas finally reappears in actual footage!


Title: Re: \
Post by: MikestheGreatest!! on October 20, 2017, 03:32:58 PM
Hush puppies
Smush puppies...

The relevant thing here is that all sorts of tricks have to be resorted to in attempts to make Brian's vocals sound half-way decent.  Sometimes they do just about sound half-way decent, but not much more than that....

Lots of folks don't like the "phoniness" aspect of the BBs career, the studio over-production, the reliance on recording tricks.  While a big fan, I do understand this viewpoint and can sympathize with it.  I think in the long run it has contributed to the group perhaps not being taken as seriously as they should be.....


Title: Re: \
Post by: rab2591 on October 20, 2017, 03:36:39 PM
Hush puppies
Smush puppies...

The relevant thing here is that all sorts of tricks have to be resorted to in attempts to make Brian's vocals sound half-way decent.  Sometimes they do just about sound half-way decent, but not much more than that....

Lots of folks don't like the "phoniness" aspect of the BBs career, the studio over-production, the reliance on recording tricks.  While a big fan, I do understand this viewpoint and can sympathize with it.  I think in the long run it has contributed to the group perhaps not being taken as seriously as they should be.....

Here ya go buddy, sounds like you could use these...

(http://weclipart.com/gimg/E53DBBF1A5EBC091/q-tips-400x400.jpg)


Title: Re: \
Post by: guitarfool2002 on October 20, 2017, 03:50:42 PM
Hush puppies
Smush puppies...

The relevant thing here is that all sorts of tricks have to be resorted to in attempts to make Brian's vocals sound half-way decent.  Sometimes they do just about sound half-way decent, but not much more than that....

Lots of folks don't like the "phoniness" aspect of the BBs career, the studio over-production, the reliance on recording tricks.  While a big fan, I do understand this viewpoint and can sympathize with it.  I think in the long run it has contributed to the group perhaps not being taken as seriously as they should be.....

Maybe they'd be taken more seriously if we got more efforts like this:

(http://img.wennermedia.com/social/mike-love-stamos-mark-do-it-again-video-watch-19945ec7-4e23-4714-8cbe-d6980c40b417.jpg)



Title: Re: \
Post by: SMiLE Brian on October 20, 2017, 03:52:12 PM
Mikesthegreatest only in Kokomo! >:D


Title: Re: \
Post by: SMiLE Brian on October 20, 2017, 05:08:17 PM
Mikesthegreatest must be the garbage guy to AGD’s butler role to M&B....


Title: Re: \
Post by: Hickory Violet Part IV on October 21, 2017, 01:08:22 AM
He's as consistent in his views as OSD. I enjoy both their posts.


Title: Re: \
Post by: rab2591 on October 21, 2017, 03:01:53 AM
He's as consistent in his views as OSD. I enjoy both their posts.

Only one isn’t a former perma-banned member here under a different name using a VPN to mask their original IP. When OSD gets banned he’s an adult about it and accepts the consequences. When Mikesthegreatest gets banned he just makes a new account and continues trolling.

Though I don’t agree with some of OSD’s opinions, at least his opinions are grounded in the reality that Mike has been a prick during his life and is an unlikeable person (depending on your viewpoint). Whereas those who mock Brian - I really don’t get why they’re so angsty about him. Anyone who knows him says he has a heart of gold (and his interviews nearly always reflect that).